Charter schools

[awa355]

Parata outlines the details of the charter schools that will fire up next year. They appear to be targetting specific groups.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11126190

To me, this concept goes against everything that education should be. If a society wants its' people educated, then secrecy and profits have no place in that education system.
The current system needs major overhauling, but this charter schools is not the answer.

[Akzle]

come to the school of akzle.

[Oakie]

None of the five schools seem to be secretive at all and each seems to have and end goal that is not just profit (although good on them if they can deliver quality outcomes and make a profit).

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. It has the potential to be good. Shame it's going to be a political football.

[MisterD]

then secrecy and profits have no place in that education system.


Go and tell the teachers that they're not allowed to make any money out of teaching...because that's what they're doing, making a profit out of selling their skills and experience to the school.

[awa355]

Go and tell the teachers that they're not allowed to make any money out of teaching...because that's what they're doing, making a profit out of selling their skills and experience to the school.

Getting paid a wage is not the same as commercial corporate profits. We all get paid for our work skills.

[Oscar]

Parata outlines the details of the charter schools that will fire up next year. They appear to be targetting specific groups.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11126190

To me, this concept goes against everything that education should be. If a society wants its' people educated, then secrecy and profits have no place in that education system.
The current system needs major overhauling, but this charter schools is not the answer.

Four of those schools are run by not for profit charities.
They will have to make an annual return to the Charities Commission.

[scott411]

Parata outlines the details of the charter schools that will fire up next year. They appear to be targetting specific groups.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11126190

To me, this concept goes against everything that education should be. If a society wants its' people educated, then secrecy and profits have no place in that education system.
The current system needs major overhauling, but this charter schools is not the answer.

the bottom 20% are failing, if this can stop it how can it be a bad thing,

the teacher unions are looking awful over this IMO, the community groups that havc set up to start these 5 seem very good at a quick glace, and to have the PPTA telling all schools and their members to haev nothing to do with them and treat the students like lepers,

and denying destiny church one was a good move,

[Oakie]

the bottom 20% are failing, if this can stop it how can it be a bad thing,

the teacher unions are looking awful over this IMO, the community groups that havc set up to start these 5 seem very good at a quick glace, and to have the PPTA telling all schools and their members to haev nothing to do with them and treat the students like lepers,

and denying destiny church one was a good move,
PPTA and teachers in general are strongly Labour biased anyway so their rabid opposition was always a given.

[Robert Taylor]

the bottom 20% are failing, if this can stop it how can it be a bad thing,

the teacher unions are looking awful over this IMO, the community groups that havc set up to start these 5 seem very good at a quick glace, and to have the PPTA telling all schools and their members to haev nothing to do with them and treat the students like lepers,

and denying destiny church one was a good move,

If these schools work well ( maybe they will, maybe they wont ) its going to make the current teaching establishment ( Labour party sympathetic ) look bad. Thats probably part of what they worry about and why they are so bitter and twisted. Bad luck....

[mansell]

If these schools work well ( maybe they will, maybe they wont ) its going to make the current teaching establishment ( Labour party sympathetic ) look bad. Thats probably part of what they worry about and why they are so bitter and twisted. Bad luck....

I think this is a flawed example of reasoning, there is already evidence to prove Charter Schools are not the best idea. BTW I am a teacher in an urban High School, if the government were really concerned about the bottom 20% there are much better models for increasing their achievement (smaller classes and more resourcing comes to mind). I question a government that consistently wants our education system (5th in the world) to resenble that of the mighty USA (ranked between 20th and 30th). Mind you this information is a bit old, we are still waiting on the latest PISA results.

[mashman]

If these schools work well ( maybe they will, maybe they wont ) its going to make the current teaching establishment ( Labour party sympathetic ) look bad. Thats probably part of what they worry about and why they are so bitter and twisted. Bad luck....

Whilst I've no doubt that saving face probably is a concern, it's a bit of a skewed playing field innit? as the Charter Schools seem to have the power to move away from the curriculum. Seems like they're all comparing apples with oranges and as you allude to, should the charter schools do well based on the performance criteria set, it'll become a political football. Kinda shit given that the education system is supposed to be providing the best education for every child in the country.

[oldrider]

Getting paid a wage is not the same as commercial corporate profits. We all get paid for our work skills.

Mediocre performance rewarded with top level remuneration and no performance measures (accountability) to get in the way! :confused:

This equates to "appearance money" for the average school teachers but hey it's all about "participation" rather than "performance" these days, isn't it! :rolleyes:

That what gets measured gets done, when there are no measures it's little more than participation .... everybody is happy ... no winners, just losers! (students) :facepalm:

[mansell]

Mediocre performance rewarded with top level remuneration and no performance measures (accountability) to get in the way! :confused:

This equates to "appearance money" for the average school teachers but hey it's all about "participation" rather than "performance" these days, isn't it! :rolleyes:

That what gets measured gets done, when there are no measures it's little more than participation .... everybody is happy ... no winners, just losers! (students) :facepalm:

Been a while since you had anything to do with schools has it. Its all about bloody performance measurement now and the "gurus" seem to think that equates to results, in a class of 20 kids there are 20 different circumstances and each student has a different set of problems. This move to results based appraisal is what is driving a lot of very talented teacher out of the profession. In an earlier posting I taught at a decile 1 High School in South Auckland, and for some of those students getting them to turn up was the main measure of success.
BTW if anyone thinks they can do a better job than trained professionals (yes-that is what we are) feel free to set up your own school, just stop taking money away from where it is needed.

[Winston001]

I'm uncertain about charter schools but 5 is a tiny number out of approx 2000 schools in NZ. It's worth trying.

[oldrider]

Been a while since you had anything to do with schools has it. Its all about bloody performance measurement now and the "gurus" seem to think that equates to results, in a class of 20 kids there are 20 different circumstances and each student has a different set of problems. This move to results based appraisal is what is driving a lot of very talented teacher out of the profession. In an earlier posting I taught at a decile 1 High School in South Auckland, and for some of those students getting them to turn up was the main measure of success.
BTW if anyone thinks they can do a better job than trained professionals (yes-that is what we are) feel free to set up your own school, just stop taking money away from where it is needed.

As a senior manager of a group of major industrial factories I was actually a customer of your schools with respect to the product that you turned out!

I don't think that the schools of today prepare their students for the work force because we always had to restart the process from the beginning!

Sure there were some very gifted students came to us but there gifts were relatively undeveloped or misdirected and the recovery costs to both the new recruit and to the company were often major and could have been sorted long before they left school!

I don't believe that very many teachers have any idea about the requirements industry has of school levers because it is not part of their own psychology or experience!

I take on board your comments about my current knowledge of schools and their workings, things do change and I am out of that loop now, hope I am wrong!

[SVboy]

Mediocre performance rewarded with top level remuneration and no performance measures (accountability) to get in the way! :confused:

This equates to "appearance money" for the average school teachers but hey it's all about "participation" rather than "performance" these days, isn't it! :rolleyes:

That what gets measured gets done, when there are no measures it's little more than participation .... everybody is happy ... no winners, just losers! (students) :facepalm:

Same old person whine yet again-just because you say it doesnt make it true. How would you know? You were never a teacher. If it is a mediocre education system you want,keep voting National, or national front or what ever "market driven" ideology that has you brainwashed.

[oldrider]

Settle petal it's just my opinion formed from personal experience and the fact that teachers claim skills but never put them up for appraisal against anything tangible! :no:

[Oscar]

Settle petal it's just my opinion formed from personal experience and the fact that teachers claim skills but never put them up for appraisal against anything tangible! :no:

I'm with you on this one.
I've had to deal with any number of "good students" who were not fit for employment.

[SVboy]

Settle petal it's just my opinion formed from personal experience and the fact that teachers claim skills but never put them up for appraisal against anything tangible! :no:

You said yourself you have no experience with current education[and obviously very little in the past either] so how would you have a clue on how and by what criteria teacher's professional standards and competence are judged. Still being an ex-manager disappointed in the calibre of people who applied to work in what-ever job you used to do has obviously made you an educational expert. I suggest you start a charter school and show all those lefty slacker teachers how it should be done.

[Oscar]

You said yourself you have no experience with current education[and obviously very little in the past either] so how would you have a clue on how and by what criteria teacher's professional standards and competence are judged. Still being an ex-manager disappointed in the calibre of people who applied to work in what-ever job you used to do has obviously made you an educational expert. I suggest you start a charter school and show all those lefty slacker teachers how it should be done.

He's a consumer, you Muppet.
He's saying the product is unsatisfactory.
As I said previously, some students leave school proficient in everything but common sense.
You give yourself away as a teacher with the attitude that you can set your own standards whilst ignoring the job market.

[SVboy]

He's a consumer, you Muppet.
He's saying the product is unsatisfactory.
As I said previously, some students leave school proficient in everything but common sense.
You give yourself away as a teacher with the attitude that you can set your own standards whilst ignoring the job market.

Read back on his threads fool. That is only one aspect of his attempt to slag off teaching. Of course I am a teacher...why do you think I am taking the time to respond to ignorant comment? Set our own standard? What have you been smoking? Last time I checked the government set the curriculum by which we teach and the standards to which we assess.

[mashman]

He's a consumer, you Muppet.
He's saying the product is unsatisfactory.
As I said previously, some students leave school proficient in everything but common sense.
You give yourself away as a teacher with the attitude that you can set your own standards whilst ignoring the job market.

A bad workman always blames his tools.

[Oscar]

Read back on his threads fool. That is only one aspect of his attempt to slag off teaching. Of course I am a teacher...why do you think I am taking the time to respond to ignorant comment? Set our own standard? What have you been smoking? Last time I checked the government set the curriculum by which we teach and the standards to which we assess.

Firstly, I have no intention of reading all his posts.
Secondly, if you are a teacher you are failing to get your point across.
As an employer, he (and I) have every right to comment on what schools turn out.

Notwithstanding that, his comment was about assessment of teachers, which in my experience, is very hit and miss.
Have you ever seen a bad teacher dismissed?
The teaching profession has more than its share of mediocre people who know that, short of kiddy fiddling, they have a job for life.

[Oscar]

A bad workman always blames his tools.

What the fuck are you on about?
The tools in question did not get the job.

[mashman]

What the fuck are you on about?

You answered your own question dipshit.


The tools in question did not get the job.

[oldrider]

You said yourself you have no experience with current education[and obviously very little in the past either] so how would you have a clue on how and by what criteria teacher's professional standards and competence are judged. Still being an ex-manager disappointed in the calibre of people who applied to work in what-ever job you used to do has obviously made you an educational expert. I suggest you start a charter school and show all those lefty slacker teachers how it should be done.

There are non so blind as those that will not see! You are part of the problem rather than the solution! :confused:

[SVboy]

Firstly, I have no intention of reading all his posts.
Secondly, if you are a teacher you are failing to get your point across.
As an employer, he (and I) have every right to comment on what schools turn out.

Notwithstanding that, his comment was about assessment of teachers, which in my experience, is very hit and miss.
Have you ever seen a bad teacher dismissed?
The teaching profession has more than its share of mediocre people who know that, short of kiddy fiddling, they have a job for life.

Your ignorance speaks for itself. He is not an employer-perhaps once he was but he is certainly well out of touch with current education now: as are you.
You spout stereotypes with no basis in fact. In your experience, "hit and miss"? What experience-enlighten us! Of course I have seen poor teachers dismissed. Looking at the superficiality of your posts and myopic focus of them, I suggest the potential employees who failed to meet your standards may have had a lucky escape.

[Oscar]

You answered your own question dipshit.

You should stay away from idioms, you make even less sense than usual.

[Oscar]

Your ignorance speaks for itself. He is not an employer-perhaps once he was but he is certainly well out of touch with current education now: as are you.
You spout stereotypes with no basis in fact. In your experience, "hit and miss"? What experience-enlighten us! Of course I have seen poor teachers dismissed. Looking at the superficiality of your posts and myopic focus of them, I suggest the potential employees who failed to meet your standards may have had a lucky escape.

My Mother was a Teacher, my brother is a teacher and my wife is the DP of a large High School.
I was on the BOT.

I have plenty of experience.

[SVboy]

Then how can you explain your ignorant posts?

[Oscar]

Then how can you explain your ignorant posts?

How do you explain yours?

You lead with your chin:


If it is a mediocre education system you want,keep voting National, or national front or what ever "market driven" ideology that has you brainwashed.

Are you surprised when you get a negative response?

[oldrider]

Then how can you explain your ignorant posts?

Your words not mine, do you understand Chinese or are 900 million Chinese wrong because "you" don't understand? :mellow:

[SVboy]

Well there is another fail or two. In what way are my posts ignorant? My are based on actual long term experience in the industry. yours seem based on personal bias and second-hand hear-say. If you took the time[which you have already said you couldnt be bothered], you would see that OLDRIDER and I have had educational debates over many threads in the past and to quote me out of context seems to sum up the shallowness of whatever it is that you are trying to say. However, in an attempt to get this thread back on track, perhaps you and OLDRIDER could pool resources to start a charter school and show us all how it should be done.

[SVboy]

Your words not mine, do you understand Chinese or are 900 million Chinese wrong because "you" don't understand? :mellow:

Is saturday night "drinkies" night down there?

[T.W.R]

Your words not mine, do you understand Chinese or are 900 million Chinese wrong because "you" don't understand? :mellow:


Is saturday night "drinkies" night down there?

:facepalm: must be :msn-wink:

there's over 200 ~ closer to 300 forms of Chinese language and there's over 1.3 billion chinese in mainland china alone not counting all the rest around the world :laugh:

[mashman]

You should stay away from idioms, you make even less sense than usual.

I can't help it that you're lack of ability to extrapolate blinds you to the fuckin obvious.

You're looking for a plane (the thing that shaves wood). Once upon a time you interviewed what looked like a plane and were glad when it turned out to be a plane. Today you interview what looks like a plane not realising that these days you have to plug the fuckin thing in. Instead of looking for an outlet, you throw it away as defective and blame the manufacturer where it's actually you fuckers that are behind the times and no longer know what a plane looks like let alone how one functions.

You're an analogue watch in a digital age. The problem is with you and your ilk expecting what you once had to remain the same in a changing world. Your archaic attitude is hampering progress. You need to change dipshit or shut the fuck up and let others get on with it.

[oldrider]

Is saturday night "drinkies" night down there?

Only semi interested, you made a comment, I replied, etc etc etc it gets boring going nowhere, like explaining a joke! :thud:

[HenryDorsetCase]

I dont give two shits about charter schools per se, but the teaching of creationism as science is child abuse, and should be enough to to have them closed down and all the "teachers" hands cut off and thrown into the sea.

[Shadowjack]

After reading this thread for a while, I understand that what the education system should be producing is individuals suitable only for immediate subordination into a means of production.
We certainly don't want individuals capable of cogently critiquing the society they have been born into. I mean, how dangerous would that be.

[SVboy]

After reading this thread for a while, I understand that what the education system should be producing is individuals suitable only for immediate subordination into a means of production.
We certainly don't want individuals capable of cogently critiquing the society they have been born into. I mean, how dangerous would that be.

Shhhhhh-dont you be out here with that revolutionary talk. Oscar the grouch and oldrider will find you.......

[Ocean1]

After reading this thread for a while, I understand that what the education system should be producing is individuals suitable only for immediate subordination into a means of production.

Oh, only if they want to earn their keep, dude. They don't HAVE to actually produce anything nowadays y'know.


We certainly don't want individuals capable of cogently critiquing the society they have been born into. I mean, how dangerous would that be.

There's no shortage of critics now, dude, and they’re not very dangerous at all.

[Winston001]

We certainly don't want individuals capable of cogently critiquing the society they have been born into. I mean, how dangerous would that be.

Mmm...but that does rather assume that teachers are able to dispassionately lead such a critique. To present points of view which may jar with their own ideas - its not easy to surpress bias.

Regrettably we have here a clear example: provocative emotionally loaded words highlighted for illustration.


SVboy -Same old person whine yet again-just because you say it doesnt make it true. How would you know? You were never a teacher. If it is a mediocre education system you want,keep voting National, or national front or what ever "market driven" ideology that has you brainwashed.

It troubles me the SVboy will be imposing such ideas on impressionable children.

[Oscar]

You're looking for a plane (the thing that shaves wood). Once upon a time you interviewed what looked like a plane and were glad when it turned out to be a plane. Today you interview what looks like a plane not realising that these days you have to plug the fuckin thing in. Instead of looking for an outlet, you throw it away as defective and blame the manufacturer where it's actually you fuckers that are behind the times and no longer know what a plane looks like let alone how one functions.

You're an analogue watch in a digital age. The problem is with you and your ilk expecting what you once had to remain the same in a changing world. Your archaic attitude is hampering progress. You need to change dipshit or shut the fuck up and let others get on with it.

What were you drinking when you wrote that?

[mashman]

It troubles me the SVboy will be imposing such ideas on impressionable children.

You cannot be serious after saying



Regrettably we have here a clear example: provocative emotionally loaded words highlighted for illustration.

Are you unable to separate your personal views from your work life?


What were you drinking when you wrote that?

Truth serum.

[Akzle]

What were you drinking when you wrote that?

the sweat of hoary bushmen.
Otherwise called steinlager.

[SVboy]

Mmm...but that does rather assume that teachers are able to dispassionately lead such a critique. To present points of view which may jar with their own ideas - its not easy to surpress bias.

Regrettably we have here a clear example: provocative emotionally loaded words highlighted for illustration.



It troubles me the SVboy will be imposing such ideas on impressionable children.

Hopefully I will use a bit of professional willpower to be an impartial facilitator. But in regards to your naivety-a wee quiz for you. Please rearrange these words to reflect your attitude. Head,your,sand,the,in,bury

[Oscar]

the sweat of hoary bushmen.
Otherwise called steinlager.


Also known as headache in a bottle.
Fuck, no wonder you're so grumpy.

[Oscar]

Head,your,sand,the,in,bury

Incorrectly capitalised and punctuation is missing.

Stay behind after class.

[Winston001]

Are you unable to separate your personal views from your work life?




And that Mashie is the very point. Being dispassionate. Standing aside from emotive triggers whatever ones own personal views.


Hopefully I will use a bit of professional willpower to be an impartial facilitator. But in regards to your naivety-a wee quiz for you. Please rearrange these words to reflect your attitude. Head,your,sand,the,in,bury

I'll ignore the gratuitous insult.

To be fair to you, I was going to add that this is just KB and you should be able to express your personal opinions. I simply hope you don't unconsciously pass these on to your students - and you probably don't.

[BMWST?]

As a senior manager of a group of major industrial factories I was actually a customer of your schools with respect to the product that you turned out!

I don't think that the schools of today prepare their students for the work force because we always had to restart the process from the beginning!

Sure there were some very gifted students came to us but there gifts were relatively undeveloped or misdirected and the recovery costs to both the new recruit and to the company were often major and could have been sorted long before they left school!

I don't believe that very many teachers have any idea about the requirements industry has of school levers because it is not part of their own psychology or experience!

I take on board your comments about my current knowledge of schools and their workings, things do change and I am out of that loop now, hope I am wrong!

i would suggest that that is not the teachers fault.The teachers teach what they are told to teach.

[Ocean1]

It troubles me the SVboy will be imposing such ideas on impressionable children.

Where do you suppose the current crop of professional beneficiaries got their training?

[mashman]

And that Mashie is the very point. Being dispassionate. Standing aside from emotive triggers whatever ones own personal views.

I disagree. You need passionate teachers to be able to get through to the awkward ones like me... as they were the only teachers that made any form of human sense. The rest seemed like uninterested robots and given that these people are our role models at such an "impressionable" age I'd rather enjoy my time at school with engaging and challenging teachers than some stiff, unfeeling, untouchable supposed grown up. In my experience, not just me but reflecting on how students viewed and responded to our teachers, the my way or the highway teachers where the ones who were disliked. Doesn't really fill us young adults with confidence and respect for our elders, let alone inspire us to want to integrate with adults. So no, I'd disagree. In ways I was fortunate enough to be able to share a pint with my teachers due to the different school ages in the English and Scottish school systems... so I guess I got to know them more as human beings, which made them more approachable. This peculiar separation of teacher and student that we seem to be consistently driving towards is wrong imho. Students should "know" their teachers.

[awa355]

Here is an article on removing science from a schools curriculum. Apparently it is too hard for students to learn science.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/9196647/Schools-put-science-in-too-hard-basket

One comment from the principal, " No-one wants to see us dumb down the curriculum, but we have to see some level of success."

In my view, a real defeatist's outlook.

[mansell]

Here is an article on removing science from a schools curriculum. Apparently it is too hard for students to learn science.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/9196647/Schools-put-science-in-too-hard-basket

One comment from the principal, " No-one wants to see us dumb down the curriculum, but we have to see some level of success."

In my view, a real defeatist's outlook.

Thanks for posting that, I must have missed it entirely. Of cause students find the sciences hard - there seems to be some cultural thing, many times I've had parents whinge at me how hard science was for them and this will deliberately affect the children. Personally I would like to see our Government do something about this - not just commisioning another report from another expert - how about promoting the teaching of science at primary school so when I finally get the students at year 9 they can at least do some critical thinking.

[SVboy]

Where do you suppose the current crop of professional beneficiaries got their training?

From "parents" like you?

[mashman]

Thanks for posting that, I must have missed it entirely. Of cause students find the sciences hard - there seems to be some cultural thing, many times I've had parents whinge at me how hard science was for them and this will deliberately affect the children. Personally I would like to see our Government do something about this - not just commisioning another report from another expert - how about promoting the teaching of science at primary school so when I finally get the students at year 9 they can at least do some critical thinking.

Well if you don;t look like the below, how do you expect anyone to listen :innocent:

http://media1.break.com/dnet/media/2010/3/16/58%20Sexy%20Science%20Teacher.jpg

[awa355]

Well if you don;t look like the below, how do you expect anyone to listen :innocent:

http://media1.break.com/dnet/media/2010/3/16/58%20Sexy%20Science%20Teacher.jpg

If she was the teacher, I'd still be at school. If she was the pupil, I would have been de-registered by now. :yes:

[oldrider]

If school teachers are so confident and sure that their way is best ... why are they so afraid of "charter schools"? :scratch::rofl:

[mansell]

If school teachers are so confident and sure that their way is best ... why are they so afraid of "charter schools"? :scratch::rofl:

Its not that we are afaid of charter schools its just that we are sick of dumass politicians telling us that techniques that have tried and failed elsewhere are the best for NZ education. Charter schools and other such fuck ups are about saving money not about the best outcomes for the youth of new zealand

[SVboy]

If school teachers are so confident and sure that their way is best ... why are they so afraid of "charter schools"? :scratch::rofl:

You appear to be for them? Why? Even you could take off a couple of your blinkers to see that cheaper rarely means better. You may find this is in issue if you go into a resthome!! Dont recall any comments saying teachers were afraid of charter schools. The military charter school sounds interesting, and if they go some way to addressing the students that pooly resourced mainstream schools struggle to engage and help succeed, then excellent.

[Banditbandit]

HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU’RE A TEACHER?

1.You get a secret thrill out of laminating things.

2.You can hear 25 voices behind you and know exactly which one belongs to the child out of line.

3.You've just had your profession slagged of by the same person who said "I wouldn't do your job for the world".

4.You have 25 people who accidentally call you Mom/Dad at one time or another.

5.You can eat a multi-course meal in under 25 minutes.

6.You’ve trained yourself to go to the bathroom at two distinct times of the day, lunch and planning period.

7.You start saving other people’s trash, because most likely, you can use that toilet paper tube or plastic butter tub for something in the classroom.

8.You believe the Teacher’s Lounge should be equipped with a margarita machine.

9.You want to slap the next person who says, “Must be nice to work 7 to 3 and have summers off”.

10.You believe chocolate is a food group.

11.You can tell if it’s a full moon without ever looking outside.

12. You believe that unspeakable evils will befall you if anyone says, “Boy, the kids are sure mellow today.”

13.You believe that "shallow gene pool" should be a tick box on a report card.

14.You believe in aerial spraying of Ritalin.

15.You think caffeine should be available in intravenous form.

16.You spend more money on school stuff than you do on your own children.

17.You can’t pass the school supply aisle without getting at least 5 items!

18. You believe there should be a Prozac Salt Lick in the staff room.

19.You find true beauty in a can full of perfectly sharpened pencils.

20. You are secretly addicted to hand sanitizer.

21.You understand, instantaneously, why a child behaves in a certain way after meeting his/her parents.

[mashman]

If she was the teacher, I'd still be at school. If she was the pupil, I would have been de-registered by now. :yes:

:killingme... send her to the head?

[oldrider]

You appear to be for them? Why?

How on earth do you get that idea ... I don't know anything about them but am interested to see how they work out!

I do know that the current school methods are full of short comings and teachers by their own admission are afraid to have their performance measured against reality!

The only other measures that I have witnessed is the quality of the product (students) that I have been involved with over time!

Different strokes for different folks, everyone is individually different, one size fits all is just crap! IMHO.

[Banditbandit]

How on earth do you get that idea ... I don't know anything about them but am interested to see how they work out!

I do know that the current school methods are full of short comings and teachers by their own admission are afraid to have their performance measured against reality!

That's not what I see - what I see that teachers are quite happy to be measured on performance - but the question is what will that look like??

Teachers are responsible for teaching, but only to a certain extent for student learning - students are largely responsible for their learning. Teachers are part of that process, but not the whole process. So pass rates are ony one measuere, and in isolation, tell you bugger all ...

And if students don't even get into class (truancy etc) how can you judge the teacher?


The only other measures that I have witnessed is the quality of the product (students) that I have been involved with over time!



Yeah .. naaa .. too much of the "quality of the student" you talk about is outside teacher control.

[mansell]

That's not what I see - what I see that teachers are quite happy to be measured on performance - but the question is what will that look like??

Teachers are responsible for teaching, but only to a certain extent for student learning - students are largely responsible for their learning. Teachers are part of that process, but not the whole process. So pass rates are ony one measuere, and in isolation, tell you bugger all ...

And if students don't even get into class (truancy etc) how can you judge the teacher?



Yeah .. naaa .. too much of the "quality of the student" you talk about is outside teacher control.

Thank You :niceone:

[mashman]

And if students don't even get into class (truancy etc) how can you judge the teacher?

There are things being put in place to address the issue of teacher/student judgement :yes:... but I can say no more :)

[SVboy]

How on earth do you get that idea ... I don't know anything about them but am interested to see how they work out!

I do know that the current school methods are full of short comings and teachers by their own admission are afraid to have their performance measured against reality!

The only other measures that I have witnessed is the quality of the product (students) that I have been involved with over time!

Different strokes for different folks, everyone is individually different, one size fits all is just crap! IMHO.


"Teachers by their own admission are afraid to have their performance measured against reality" You really dont have an inkling do you? By YOUR own admission you know little to nothing of current education and boy does it show! As I and other have said before: Teachers have many legislative criteria and professional standards we HAVE to meet in order to be deemed competent and legally registered to teach.[And rightly so]. Your "real world" only exists in your mind. I apologise for thinking you supported charter schools-I thought you would have been in favour of any right wing cost cutting measure-except anything threatening your pension of course!

[oldrider]

"Teachers by their own admission are afraid to have their performance measured against reality" You really dont have an inkling do you? By YOUR own admission you know little to nothing of current education and boy does it show! As I and other have said before: Teachers have many legislative criteria and professional standards we HAVE to meet in order to be deemed competent and legally registered to teach.[And rightly so]. Your "real world" only exists in your mind. I apologise for thinking you supported charter schools-I thought you would have been in favour of any right wing cost cutting measure-except anything threatening your pension of course!

You really ought to get a life! :rolleyes:

[SVboy]

I had hoped for a better comeback than that. Teachers do try to have positive expectations!

[Ocean1]

Of cause students find the sciences hard - there seems to be some cultural thing.

Damned right there's a cultural thing. Science is no more difficult than any other discipline, (oops, there's that D word) it's just that you can't lower the bar with the hard sciences like they've done with the soft ones. It's not only culturally correct as far as the significantly socialist leaning teaching profession's concerned but also a fucking site less work to just gloss over the lack of performance by simply expecting less of the students.

[Ocean1]

From "parents" like you?

Ah, just like old times.

It's been 20 years since a teacher tried to blame me for her inability to do her job. Disappointing to see the attitude seems to have become ingrained as a first line of defence.

[mashman]

Damned right there's a cultural thing. Science is no more difficult than any other discipline, (oops, there's that D word) it's just that you can't lower the bar with the hard sciences like they've done with the soft ones. It's not only culturally correct as far as the significantly socialist leaning teaching profession's concerned but also a fucking site less work to just gloss over the lack of performance by simply expecting less of the students.

Aye, that's the issue :facepalm:. The entire system is inflexible. Shite at science, you alternative is, erm, hmmmm, well, doing science and failing because there is no real alternative because it's a core subject. Finally start understanding science 2 years after you started it but need to go back to the ground level to backfill your new found understanding? Tough shit, why should you be allowed to go backwards when you have been clearly branded a failure?

Get a clue fella.

[avgas]

To me, this concept goes against everything that education should be. If a society wants its' people educated, then secrecy and profits have no place in that education system.
The current system needs major overhauling, but this charter schools is not the answer.
Huh? Come again? You do know how Universities work don't you?
Or do you not count them as education?

As for overhauling by any other means - care to name one? Or you going to stomp your feet and throw your toys out of the cot like standard 2.

[mansell]

Aye, that's the issue :facepalm:. The entire system is inflexible. Shite at science, you alternative is, erm, hmmmm, well, doing science and failing because there is no real alternative because it's a core subject. Finally start understanding science 2 years after you started it but need to go back to the ground level to backfill your new found understanding? Tough shit, why should you be allowed to go backwards when you have been clearly branded a failure?

Get a clue fella.

The alternative is - living in fucking caves eating raw meat - Science is so ingrained in modern society we would be severely disadvantaging anyone to just put it in the too hard basket. Yes at higher levels the Sciences are difficult but I firmly believe we need at least an understanding of the thought processes behind it and an ability to sort fact out from mumbo jumbo.

[mashman]

The alternative is - living in fucking caves eating raw meat - Science is so ingrained in modern society we would be severely disadvantaging anyone to just put it in the too hard basket. Yes at higher levels the Sciences are difficult but I firmly believe we need at least an understanding of the thought processes behind it and an ability to sort fact out from mumbo jumbo.

Bit dramatic given that we are were we are, not because of a school system but because of our curiosity. But yeah, science being taught will shorten the learning curve and pique the interest of future scientists etc... tis a shame the too hard basket is too easy, certainly much easier than gearing the education system towards the student and their learning ability/want to learn at any given point in time in their development.

[mansell]

Bit dramatic given that we are were we are, not because of a school system but because of our curiosity.

200 years ago maybe - but the modern advances are certainly due to well educated people taking what is already known and progressing it.
However this is beginning to move away from the topic at hand, if you are happy that your kids learn that the earth is flat and the centre of everything then let's let special interest groups set their own school curriculum, after all they must know more about teaching our future citizens than someone who has been trained to do so.

[mashman]

200 years ago maybe - but the modern advances are certainly due to well educated people taking what is already known and progressing it.
However this is beginning to move away from the topic at hand, if you are happy that your kids learn that the earth is flat and the centre of everything then let's let special interest groups set their own school curriculum, after all they must know more about teaching our future citizens than someone who has been trained to do so.

Absolutely, not denying that at all as it has always been that way, well, other than someone had to discover something first without any prior knowledge.
Bloody drama queen ;). In ways I'm all for specialist teaching if the student is keen. Be it a charter school, private school, public school etc... it matters not, primarily because there will be teaching taking place. For me it's all about what the kid is wanting to do and learn... and no, I'm not a teacher (a damned good thing), just someone that has been through the system and is reflecting on what I saw that was "wrong" with how things turned out (primarily my shite attitude, but hey, I eventually became ready and willing to learn).

[awa355]

Interesting to see more veiled threats coming from Parata this morning.

" Schools where children are failing exams could be taken over by the Government as the Education Minister warns staff need to be held accountable for students' performance."

Apparently there are about 70 schools currently under the control of statutory managers.

I thought the public schools were under the guidience of the govt anyway. Has national standards changed anything as far as achievement rates go?



http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11128998

[Banditbandit]

Damned right there's a cultural thing. You need to expand on this - I fail to see how science is a cultural thing - except at a deeply philosophical level.


Science is no more difficult than any other discipline, (oops, there's that D word) it's just that you can't lower the bar with the hard sciences like they've done with the soft ones.

I'm not sure that is true. Science is not that hard, becasue at least at the early stages, there are right and wrong aswers that can be learnt - once you get to the philosophical level, the people like Paul Feyerabend through spannes in the works - but as far as the practical side goes, there are still right and wrong, or workable, answers.

The "soft" sciences do not have right and wrong answers - the ability to interpret data and the juist plain think is important - as well as the ability to justify the answers research arrives at. These are not disciplines where the right answer can be memorised




It's not only culturally correct as far as the significantly socialist leaning teaching profession's concerned but also a fucking site less work to just gloss over the lack of performance by simply expecting less of the students.

Again - this is not true. Pupils pass the "soft" sciences by their ability to argue and discuss, not by their ability to rote learn correct answers.

[SVboy]

Ah, just like old times.

It's been 20 years since a teacher tried to blame me for her inability to do her job. Disappointing to see the attitude seems to have become ingrained as a first line of defence.

Woops! Sorry! With a perfect parent like you it MUST be the teachers fault. Wow. I can see denial being a big aspect of your life. Open your eyes and take a reality check on issues within many NZ homes and families and how those issues flow through to education.

[mashman]

Interesting take and I agree to a huge extent. (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/why-see-children-start-school-later-085900423.html#vdUurXk)