Reality of getting into a trade after the teens?

[R2D2]

Anyone here have any experience trying to break into a trade a little later on than the typical straight out of school teen?
Been applying for apprenticeships in Heavy Automotive for two years now, pretty seriously just this year applying all over aus, even moved back here from Aus' in the hope that it'd be better for opportunities (might sound funny but the place is fucked job wise at the moment) but am getting nothing back but the old "as all applications were of high quality; we regret to tell you..." emails.

Was considering the option of a pre apprenticeship course until I realised that they are full time one year courses, which wouldn't be a problem, if I was still a stay at home kid with no need for money who could survive on a student wage, or at best one or two days work a week.

Rant over. But seriously... Anyone ever gone through the same thing and have ideas as to how to get a foot in the door? Surely a forum full of bikers will contain a few mechanics, maybe even ones who didn't get into it through a family friend's engineering co by the time they were 16?:confused: Any advice no matter how sarcastic will be appreciated :niceone:

[hayd3n]

get ya foot in the door thru work experience ,
then try for a trade,

[mashman]

Pretend that you're 16.

[Akzle]

print off 50 cvs. Go door to door. Find out who the shop or floor manager is. If theyre unavailable, come back later.

And, Tatoo 'fuck jews' on your forehead.

[unstuck]

Most people are looking for experience rather than qualifications. If you want something bad enough, you will find a way to achieve it.:headbang::headbang:

[Maha]

Emails and sending CV's are (in reality) way to easy to fob off (unless you are fucking exceptional) as in your recent experience.

Best advice...rock on up and introduce yourself, put your case forward in person. I would employ someone with that nouse to do that.
At the age of 18, I saw a carpet layer loading his van one day, I said to him, can you teach me to lay carpet''? the reply was ''bring a cut lunch tomorrow and meet me here at 8am''
That was in 1980 and I still remember it word for word. I am still laying floor coverings 30+ years later and never been with a job since that very first question.

[flyingcrocodile46]

get ya foot in the door thru work experience ,
then try for a trade,

Emails and sending CV's are (in reality) way to easy to fob off (unless you are fucking exceptional) as in your recent experience.

Best advice...rock on up and introduce yourself, put your case forward in person. I would employ someone with that nouse to do that.
At the age of 18, I saw a carpet layer loading his van one day, I said to him, can you teach me to lay carpet''? the reply was ''bring a cut lunch tomorrow and meet me here at 8am''
That was in 1980 and I still remember it word for word. I am still laying floor coverings 30+ years later and never been with a job since that very first question.


Can't give you better advice than that. Other than to add. 'Don't wait for the job to be advertised'.

If they see the potential in you and you put the squeeze on, it'll happen. ;)

Good luck

[R2D2]

print off 50 cvs. Go door to door. Find out who the shop or floor manager is. If theyre unavailable, come back later.

And, Tatoo 'fuck jews' on your forehead.


Emails and sending CV's are (in reality) way to easy to fob off (unless you are fucking exceptional) as in your recent experience.

Best advice...rock on up and introduce yourself, put your case forward in person. I would employ someone with that nouse to do that.
At the age of 18, I saw a carpet layer loading his van one day, I said to him, can you teach me to lay carpet''? the reply was ''bring a cut lunch tomorrow and meet me here at 8am''
That was in 1980 and I still remember it word for word. I am still laying floor coverings 30+ years later and never been with a job since that very first question.

Can't say I've done that so far since being in NZ, but I suppose can't hurt to spend a day in Palmy, and drive down to welly and try that. I can picture being told to fuck off and stop annoying said manager though (was pretty much the normal response over the ditch if you weren't introduced by a worker or friend of a friend)...


get ya foot in the door thru work experience ,
then try for a trade,

How would you go about doing that considering no one in their right mind would let a complete clean skin do anything vaguely mechnical, and surely sweeping floors isn't going to grant you entry to an apprenticeship?

[hayd3n]

Can't say I've done that so far since being in NZ, but I suppose can't hurt to spend a day in Palmy, and drive down to welly and try that. I can picture being told to fuck off and stop annoying said manager though (was pretty much the normal response over the ditch if you weren't introduced by a worker or friend of a friend)...



How would you go about doing that considering no one in their right mind would let a complete clean skin do anything vaguely mechnical, and surely sweeping floors isn't going to grant you entry to an apprenticeship?

gotta start somewhere :) show them your keen to learn !! , how many parts can you identify under the hood of a vehicle????
how do you think most ppl got into their trade??? they usually start with the lowest wage and shittiest job,

i have uncle who started at telecom sweeping the floors at 15, then eventually worked next to bill gates , he now owns his own multi million dollar company, and had never had school cert,

[george formby]

I'm a chef, prolly not to dissimilar to a mechanic in some ways. The why is far more important the how.

When employing folks I give a cv very little weight. A can do attitude, common sense, a willingness to learn & integrity have far more value. I can teach the job if somebody really wants to do it.

A few years ago, sat in a pub, a bloke who had over heard my conversation about a trip in the Southern Ocean offered me a job on his fishing boat, a long liner.. I was cooking on my trip & told him so, know f' all about fishing. He said, "if you can spend 3 months down there getting the shit kicked out of you & come back smiling you would be good on my boat, go for a trip, no guarantees either way". I spent a year on his boat, did as I was told, gave a damn & learned my job. Poor bugger was nearly in tears when I moved on.
I was 40 when I jumped aboard & terrified of everything, intimidated by the crew, knew nothing but always asked questions no matter how dumb, stood up for myself & always got the job done, no matter how back breaking and it was unbelievably hard some times. 36 hours on deck was the longest between bunks. 36 hours of catching big, toothy fuckers 150kg +. And skinny old me having to wrestle the bastards into submission.

Some times you just have to put it out there, as a chef I offer a shift for free so they can test my mettle, I know nothing about their menu or kitchen but I know how to work & learn, that is the real value for an employer, I believe.

Get yourself out there & make a place for yourself. Tenacity is worth it's weight in gold.

[R2D2]

gotta start somewhere :) show them your keen to learn !! , how many parts can you identify under the hood of a vehicle????
how do you think most ppl got into their trade??? they usually start with the lowest wage and shittiest job,

i have uncle who started at telecom sweeping the floors at 15, then eventually worked next to bill gates , he now owns his own multi million dollar company, and had never had school cert,
I get what you're saying, but the discomforting part is to be honest, every single mechanic or apprentice I have spoken to on the subject since entering the workforce got their apprenticeship through a family member being/knowing the manager or something of the sort. I'm thinking that maybe since I'll be 21 once this round of apprenticeships starts in 2014, having to pay me a higher wage might be putting anyone off?

[jasonu]

I get what you're saying, but the discomforting part is to be honest, every single mechanic or apprentice I have spoken to on the subject since entering the workforce got their apprenticeship through a family member being/knowing the manager or something of the sort. I'm thinking that maybe since I'll be 21 once this round of apprenticeships starts in 2014, having to pay me a higher wage might be putting anyone off?

You sound like you have plenty of excuses to not even bother to do a bit of door knocking. Get a job sweeping the floor or cleaning the bogs at a workshop and then show them what you are made of.

[flyingcrocodile46]

I get what you're saying, but the discomforting part is to be honest, every single mechanic or apprentice I have spoken to on the subject since entering the workforce got their apprenticeship through a family member being/knowing the manager or something of the sort. I'm thinking that maybe since I'll be 21 once this round of apprenticeships starts in 2014, having to pay me a higher wage might be putting anyone off?
Sure, that can be a factor of concern to employers, but the reality is that a worker on $20 an hour that does more than about 1.33 times the amount of work as a $10 an hour worker, is a better deal for any employer with a charge out rate in excess of $50 per hour. And often also for businesses with lower charge out rates.

For example, if a company only has 100 hours of billable worker hours available and their charge out rate is $50 an hour (bloody cheap mechanic), and each workers productivity is equal to but no more than the vehicle manufacturer's recommended service limits they can only bill 100 X $50 = $5,000 per five 8 hr days/week. Lets say they pay all their workers $10 per hour. That equates to $1000 off their $5,000 per week income and the company makes a $4,000 per week gross workshop profit. The equation gets worse if the workers output is only 80% of the service book recommendations as the company can only charge out 80 hours and end up with $4,000 less $1,000 for a $3,000 per week gross workshop profit.

Now, if all of the workers productivity is in excess of the service book recommendations by say 33% and they are all paid $20 per hour because they are such productive workers (as older apprentices tend to be), the equations work like this 100 +33% = 133 X $50 = $6,650 less $2000 wages = $4,650 per week gross workshop profit.

Try to remember this little exercise when you are explaining how the disadvantage of the extra cost to the employer of an adult worker is more than mitigated by your maturity, faster learning and greater appreciation of workshop economics. Then offer to settle for $18 per hour:msn-wink:

[Geeen]

I'm in a similar situation, I decided to get some qualifications after being made redundant from my former profession (I was automating houses and installing high end home theatres). Am doing a Pretrade in Mech Engineering at Wintec, its six months three days a week, up here in the Waikato most employers recruit from these courses for apprentices. I have said no to a couple as I intend to do further study next year and dont want to stuff anyone about. Could be a valid option for you to do three days at tech and two days doing work experience that leads to paid employment.

[flyingcrocodile46]

I'm in a similar situation, I decided to get some qualifications after being made redundant from my former profession (I was automating houses and installing high end home theatres). Am doing a Pretrade in Mech Engineering at Wintec, its six months three days a week, up here in the Waikato most employers recruit from these courses for apprentices. I have said no to a couple as I intend to do further study next year and dont want to stuff anyone about. Could be a valid option for you to do three days at tech and two days doing work experience that leads to paid employment.

That's GOLD

[Geeen]

No if all of the workers productivity is in excess of the service book recommendations by say 33% and they are all paid $20 per hour because they are such productive workers (as older apprentices tend to be),


I was pretty much told this by a guy looking for an apprentice on Wednesday, a lot of companies prefer older apprentices for maturity reasons and the workload they can get through, by the way I'm in my 30s going through this...

[R2D2]

You sound like you have plenty of excuses to not even bother to do a bit of door knocking. Get a job sweeping the floor or cleaning the bogs at a workshop and then show them what you are made of.
I suppose after a couple years seeing spotty faced teens with a "Meh" attitude getting the jobs I want's made me pretty pessimistic.

I'm in a similar situation, I decided to get some qualifications after being made redundant from my former profession (I was automating houses and installing high end home theatres). Am doing a Pretrade in Mech Engineering at Wintec, its six months three days a week, up here in the Waikato most employers recruit from these courses for apprentices. I have said no to a couple as I intend to do further study next year and dont want to stuff anyone about. Could be a valid option for you to do three days at tech and two days doing work experience that leads to paid employment. Was there a fee for that course or was it subsidised? Only asking because I think there are courses for 22 weeks here in palmy but wasn't sure if they held the same appeal to employers as the longer, expensive course. Are you doing paid work otherwise or on a students allowance? If they are even an option, I really have no idea


I was pretty much told this by a guy looking for an apprentice on Wednesday, a lot of companies prefer older apprentices for maturity reasons and the workload they can get through, by the way I'm in my 30s going through this...Well here's hoping

[george formby]

I'm in a similar situation, I decided to get some qualifications after being made redundant from my former profession (I was automating houses and installing high end home theatres). Am doing a Pretrade in Mech Engineering at Wintec, its six months three days a week, up here in the Waikato most employers recruit from these courses for apprentices. I have said no to a couple as I intend to do further study next year and dont want to stuff anyone about. Could be a valid option for you to do three days at tech and two days doing work experience that leads to paid employment.

K'inell:not: mechanical engineering is my next thing, but.... I live at the edge of nowhere so cannot do the time at uni & hold down a job. Well, not yet, might be 60 before I pull that off.
OP, 21? Humble your self & get 2 jobs, one for the rent & one for the future. It won't get any easier if you hang around.

[R2D2]

K'inell:not: mechanical engineering is my next thing, but.... I live at the edge of nowhere so cannot do the time at uni & hold down a job. Well, not yet, might be 60 before I pull that off.
OP, 21? Humble your self & get 2 jobs, one for the rent & one for the future. It won't get any easier if you hang around.
I don't have anything against two jobs, its whether or not there would actually be enough time after the course for a second job. I've just emailed a couple places about the courses they offer and will get in touch with WINZ or whoever handles it tomorrow to get a realistic idea of what I could get in the way of an allowance from them if the study was full time

[george formby]

Over the decades I have spent a lot of time sleeping 6 hours a night or less. Family has reined me in, I have to & want to be at home, but as a single chap I was much happier out there trying to make my way in life rather than trying to make life come to me. Time is only relevant to your perception of it.
I may not be qualified to post, though. Never crossed my mind to be sponsored to further my ambitions. Admittedly, a smart move if you can do it.

Have a read about folks like John Britten, Edmund Hilary, wotisface from Facepuke etc etc, they refused to be baulked in their ambitions & realised that the only boundaries were what they imposed on themselves.

Go forth young man & realise your dreams,.:headbang:

[R2D2]

Are you near the autistic spectrum Mr R2D2?

just watching Anika Moa winning multiple awards on the telly....
her rejection of 'merkin money and mainstream pressures is admirable
her mom seems like an aspie

Maybe a mechanical workshop with all its neurotypical politics is not for you?

I prefer to take my car to home mechanics who eschew workshop environments

Some workshops are fucken shit places of employmentI know, I've heard plenty from mechanics who refuse to work in that trade after a few years with some of the bullshit that comes with it. And yes shes a gem... And yep I'm a downy. You can tell by how much I lack in vocabulary compared to yourself

[Voltaire]

My 18 year old was relying on Emails and Internet for getting him a job. Once he used up all my Broadband I told him to print out CV's and go door knocking..He said that was "old skool"..not the easiest to do but he got some positive feedback....and a Job 1 day a week at Barkers, that went into 3...that got him a nice wardrobe...;)
A chance conversation with a supplier and now he is a Trade Assistant, give him a chance to show what he is like to an employer, hoping to get an Apprenticeship next year.

[Geeen]

Was there a fee for that course or was it subsidised? Only asking because I think there are courses for 22 weeks here in palmy but wasn't sure if they held the same appeal to employers as the longer, expensive course. Are you doing paid work otherwise or on a students allowance? If they are even an option, I really have no idea


Luckily for me I have a Wife who is back in the workforce expressly so I can do this, and getting a bit from studylink

[unstuck]

SIT zero fees. You live in the wrong part of the country.:Punk::Punk:

[St_Gabriel]

At age 32 (ish) was sick of dead end low paying jobs so started looking around for electrical work, checked out the local WINTEC to see what courses they had for sparkies. Got a fairly shit job working as an electrical labourer (no chance of an apprenticeship but at least I was getting experience) wiring new houses and renovations. Enrolled for night school and started my Electrical engineering level 2 as a MOE (Ministry of Education) student as opposed to an ETITO (Electro-Tecnology Industry Training Organisation or come such bullshit) student.

Half way through the year, tutor comes in and says that such and such company was looking for an apprentice. Applied for the job (only myself and one other applicant who wasnt even in the class), got the job and started my actual apprenticeship building switchboards. This was totally unrelated to my experience but it was still a foot in the door. Continued on and changed job (after redundancy) to finish my apprenticeship with a second company doing more routine electrical work (not so specialised). Been qualified for 5 years or so now.

My age actually counted for me in my first apprenticeship due to the fact they were after someone more mature to help develop who was the junior staff member at the time. Joke was on them as he made me more immature rather then what they intended. :D

[Motu]

I've heard plenty from mechanics who refuse to work in that trade after a few years with some of the bullshit that comes with it.

I've met a lot of guys, even girls who ''used to be a mechanic.'' Usually trying to tell me what to do, know alls. A lot of this is because of when we start apprenticeships. In my fathers day, and the guys who taught me, they didn't go to highschool, they started in the workforce at 13, and apprenticeships were 7 years. In my day (Baby Boomer) we left school at 15 or 16 and into an apprenticeship...we didn't really know what we wanted to do for the rest of our lives. By the time some had done their time they knew they didn't want to be a mechanic, or whatever else they served their time at.

Adult apprentices go into it because they know this is what they want to do - we have one at work, he's good. More sacrifices for an older person than a school kid, that's got to be something on your side.

[ellipsis]

I've met a lot of guys, even girls who ''used to be a mechanic.'' Usually trying to tell me what to do, know alls. A lot of this is because of when we start apprenticeships. In my fathers day, and the guys who taught me, they didn't go to highschool, they started in the workforce at 13, and apprenticeships were 7 years. In my day (Baby Boomer) we left school at 15 or 16 and into an apprenticeship...we didn't really know what we wanted to do for the rest of our lives. By the time some had done their time they knew they didn't want to be a mechanic, or whatever else they served their time at.

Adult apprentices go into it because they know this is what they want to do - we have one at work, he's good. More sacrifices for an older person than a school kid, that's got to be something on your side.

...the fact that I had a wish to be a mechanic when I was around 13 didn't stop my old lady selling me into an away from home carpentry apprenticeship with a bloke who was a ferocious nutcase, when I was 14...thank fuck she did...pained me for a few months but 42 years later I'm still a chippy and have still managed to play the fix the bike or car game alongside my work...as an employer for large parts of that time, I can tell you OP that attitude and reliability and punctuality have been the major reasons for me either taking someone on or not...one of the best blokes I ever had work with me as a chippy was boilermaker with bugger all experience of chippying before that!...

[SMOKEU]

From my own experiences, almost no one wants to hire anyone without experience in that particular field. The days of simply rocking up to a work place and getting a job are pretty much gone. I handed out dozens of CVs both in person and via email when I was on the hunt for a job, and only got 1 interview and that was because I knew a dude who worked at that place who put in a good word for me.

I would suggest that you look into becoming a house painter. It's the easiest job I've ever done, and the money isn't too bad either. It certainly beats freezing your ass off in an unheated workshop in winter, and melting in the sun in summer. Being a sub contractor I don't have to deal with anyone watching directly over me, so as long as the job gets done to a good standard with minimal disruption to the client, then I get to do pretty much whatever I want on the job*

*Sniffing panties on the job is apparently forbidden.




And, Tatoo 'fuck jews' on your forehead.

+1.

[Juniper]

TBH I think everyone needs that first person to take that risk and take you on.

I had the same thing. I'm an administrator/coordinator by trade, yes I call what I have a trade. Its something I love doing and it took Daniel Relf from 2degrees to give me my break and take this smart mouthed girl from Harvey Normal retail into the corporate administration. He was the best and worst boss I have ever had but I owe him everything.

I have no qualifications (I dropped out of uni for medical reasons and never went back) and the position I'm in now is only something I could dream of. People have to do massive amounts of study and tedious exams to get where I am. Of which I shall soon be doing, having the job is nice, the title brilliant, but the money to go with it would be really nifty. :rolleyes:

3 years ago I was on min wage, my goal is in 3 years time to be on 100k.


The only way I think I have gotten this far is by my attitude. I work on an old-school theory of honour and respect. I'm straight up and tell it like it is. I do my work to the best of my ability, and if it is possible to do it better I have no qualms in asking for help or advice. And I have a "Don't waste my air" rule- so don't constantly complain about something without providing a solution. Otherwise you are just wasting my air.

[Swoop]

A couple of points, if I may...

Firstly, "older" apprentices are favoured by some employers. One of the main traits is timekeeping. A mature person will be at work ahead of time, NOT "on" time and certainly not late. They will also not spend half the day with their dick in their hand (cell phone)...

Secondly, door-knocking still works. A Harold article from some HR fuckwit simply banned the concept entirely. Advising people to simply email their CV is just another way of saying "we want you to be on the dole".

I have advised many people over the years. Door knocking, accompanied with a BREIF cv, a kit of tools and a willingness to work with a positive attitude... simply works.
A boss does not have the time to email or telephone. Show up on their doorstep and you can guarantee a better strike-rate because they can see you & your attitude in front of them. YOU have the opportunity to see them and the working environment. = win-win.

An apprentice who is 50yrs old, is not unheard of either.

[R2D2]

Thanks for all of the advice and stories, people! Went and spoke to someone about doing a year long pre apprenticeship today but was only really light vehicle focussed. A little bit of searching google and I can't find any diesel pre trade courses apart from one in invercargill though, so maybe this one is as good as I'll get. Not 100% on whether or not that will turn into a diesel or heavy auto apprenticeship by the end of it though.

Quick probably stupid question... Do companys only take in apprentices in January, or can they start new apprentices at any point in the year?

[Motu]

They used to take on apprentices at the beginning of the year because kids left school at the end of the year, and were looking for jobs soon as the workforce was back at the grind. That meant they could enrol in Tech and start night school class in the first term. No more night school or end of year exams, it's just tick the book now, so you can start anytime.

[Scouse]

Anyone here have any experience trying to break into a trade a little later on than the typical straight out of school teen?
Been applying for apprenticeships in Heavy Automotive for two years now, pretty seriously just this year applying all over aus, even moved back here from Aus' in the hope that it'd be better for opportunities (might sound funny but the place is fucked job wise at the moment) but am getting nothing back but the old "as all applications were of high quality; we regret to tell you..." emails.

Was considering the option of a pre apprenticeship course until I realised that they are full time one year courses, which wouldn't be a problem, if I was still a stay at home kid with no need for money who could survive on a student wage, or at best one or two days work a week.

Rant over. But seriously... Anyone ever gone through the same thing and have ideas as to how to get a foot in the door? Surely a forum full of bikers will contain a few mechanics, maybe even ones who didn't get into it through a family friend's engineering co by the time they were 16?:confused: Any advice no matter how sarcastic will be appreciated :niceone:
Have you thought about prostitution

[wynw]

Havn't read the entire thread but have you considered army or airforce? could be an option if nothing else arises

[scissorhands]

....And yep I'm a downy.....

'anything that shows non-conformity ruffles people's feathers and makes them feel on edge. some folk cannot handle even the mere thought that there might be somebody who is different from themselves. it is an atavistic fear rooted in early humanity when such things [conformity] related to survival of the group.'

one way to get into diesel mechanix is start at a transport firm being a yard boy, checking tyres, refuelling, cleaning up the place, etc, and/or become a driver, get your license, spend some time driving trucks

+1 on the doorknocking, show up with work clothes and boots on and toolbag in hand, just to show how keen you are

[diesel work takes some strength so size is often important]

[Geeen]

Thanks for all of the advice and stories, people! Went and spoke to someone about doing a year long pre apprenticeship today but was only really light vehicle focussed. A little bit of searching google and I can't find any diesel pre trade courses apart from one in invercargill though, so maybe this one is as good as I'll get. Not 100% on whether or not that will turn into a diesel or heavy auto apprenticeship by the end of it though.

Quick probably stupid question... Do companys only take in apprentices in January, or can they start new apprentices at any point in the year?

Did you see this one at Wintec, has heavy Diesel as part of the course

http://www.wintec.ac.nz/courses/national-certificate/motor-industry.aspx

[R2D2]

They used to take on apprentices at the beginning of the year because kids left school at the end of the year, and were looking for jobs soon as the workforce was back at the grind. That meant they could enrol in Tech and start night school class in the first term. No more night school or end of year exams, it's just tick the book now, so you can start anytime.Thanks!


Have you thought about prostitutionNot the kind of breaker bar I want to be swinging off:(


Havn't read the entire thread but have you considered army or airforce? could be an option if nothing else arisesMy knee doesn't like running, so military is out for me unfortunately


'anything that shows non-conformity ruffles people's feathers and makes them feel on edge. some folk cannot handle even the mere thought that there might be somebody who is different from themselves. it is an atavistic fear rooted in early humanity when such things [conformity] related to survival of the group.'

one way to get into diesel mechanix is start at a transport firm being a yard boy, checking tyres, refuelling, cleaning up the place, etc, and/or become a driver, get your license, spend some time driving trucks

+1 on the doorknocking, show up with work clothes and boots on and toolbag in hand, just to show how keen you are

[diesel work takes some strength so size is often important]The driving is something I plan on doing as soon as I can


Did you see this one at Wintec, has heavy Diesel as part of the course

http://www.wintec.ac.nz/courses/national-certificate/motor-industry.aspx
Did actually see it, brushed over it and completely missed that part:weird: Looks like it might be the go. [edit] its the same National Cert as the place I visited today offers but the course is free down in palmy

[NinjaNanna]

any truck repair/diesel repair place worth a damn is going to offer some form detailing service for the 1/4 million dollar rigs that roll through the door, go and offer your services as "the detailer" to save their mechnics doing it. I'd bet inside of 6 months you'll be swingaing a wrench

[unstuck]

Theres an agricultural/trucking company down here at the moment looking for a diesel mechanic or someone with mechanical ability who is prepared to get their hands dirty. But you would have to like drinking to work with those guys, and ride a harley, cos they burn jappas at their work dos.:Punk::Punk:

[R2D2]

Theres an agricultural/trucking company down here at the moment looking for a diesel mechanic or someone with mechanical ability who is prepared to get their hands dirty. But you would have to like drinking to work with those guys, and ride a harley, cos they burn jappas at their work dos.:Punk::Punk:

Hahah thats how it goes down south does it

[unstuck]

Hahah thats how it goes down south does it

Only if you have six fingers and play the banjo.:msn-wink: