Leather jackets - cheap vs expensive?

[Erelyes]

Anyone tried one of the cheap and (hopefully) cheerful jackets on trademe? Or crashed in one? At a quarter the cost it's tempting...

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=648315742
or
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=647139601

Have tried a couple decent ones on (Berik SECA and some Rev'it think I think). Loooooved the Berik, the other one was ok. Only ever had textile.

[AllanB]

Shit they are so cheap I'd not touch one for bike use - look fine for a 'fashion' jacket. I may be totally wrong but $150 ............ shit I paid twice than that for a decent motorcycle jacket 30 years ago!

Buy one and see - give it the old KB review.

[tigertim20]

I consider the likes of Qmoto to be cheap but reasonable quality. those you linked are a fair step less from those two again. Id be hesitant to put my safety in the hands of one of those to be honest.

[Drew]

This will fill up with a bunch of people who have no idea, offering dribble as fact.

Unless someone has crashed in one of the cheap ones, they have no basis for comparison.

I have found in the past, the cheap gear protects just fine. Note, it's often fucked after one crash. Where more expensive stuff might be saved. Although, it might just be that it's worth more so people get them fixed rather than chuck them.

[hayd3n]

try 1tonne :)

[geoffc]

try 1tonne :)
I 2nd that.

[Robert Taylor]

People who crash often ( MotoGP, WSBK ) etc would not wear cheap leather. You only get what you pay for and there are always unpalatable reasons for stuff being cheap

[Banditbandit]

This will fill up with a bunch of people who have no idea, offering dribble as fact.

Unless someone has crashed in one of the cheap ones, they have no basis for comparison.

I have found in the past, the cheap gear protects just fine. Note, it's often fucked after one crash. Where more expensive stuff might be saved. Although, it might just be that it's worth more so people get them fixed rather than chuck them.

Yeah .. that's right.

I prefer to spend a little more money protecting my skin .. and I had one leather jacket (custom made by Dusty Rhodes) that went down the road four times - it was still in good nick and I out grew it (middle age spread is a bitch)

Even if this cheap jacket saved my hide but was fucked after one off it would still be cheaper to buy four leather jackets like this than the one I currently ride in ...

Dunno - try it and write a review - especially if you dump the bike ..

[Geeen]

I have the Berik SECA II and its a really comfy jacket, haven't crashed in it though. I found it great value for the dollars considering an equivalent Astars or Dainese would have been almost twice the price.

[pritch]

People who crash often ( MotoGP, WSBK ) etc would not wear cheap leather. You only get what you pay for and there are always unpalatable reasons for stuff being cheap

True dat. The GP riders wear kangaroo skin suits. I have kangaroo skin gloves, and a pair of kangaroo skin boots the price of which made my eyes water. A jacket must be in Lotto win territory, and a full one piece suit something like the equivalent of our national debt?

[Paul in NZ]

People who crash often ( MotoGP, WSBK ) etc would not wear cheap leather. You only get what you pay for and there are always unpalatable reasons for stuff being cheap

What you say is true but I need to point out that often the examples you mention don't pay for the gear they wear... Plus its their job... ie My son in law the builder has a very expensive circular saw - he uses it every day and thats fine - I have a heavy old Ryobi thats worth $20 now and thats fine 'cos I use it once a year....

Problem is - you just can't always go by price either ie my then state of the art $1000 Spidi NT tour is now as waterproof as a sponge. A new $300 one will last longer than it did because technology moves on. (ie a cheap new jacket now is most likely better than a cheap new jacket was 10 years ago)... Its more about fitness for purpose and what is the intended use. My $99 RJays (on sale) leather jacket is a belting thing for pootling around the village on our classic triumph but - I wouldn't enter the Isle of Man TT with it..... I have 1 piece leathers but I wouldnt ride down to the dairy in them... (no room to stash the paper and a litre of milk down em...)

My red/white and black RJays was cheap as its so gaudy only a colour blind cheapskate who is already uglier than a somali pirates retirement plan would even consider wearing it... Vicki likes it though as it makes her look like a supermodel...

[Big Dave]

I have kangaroo


You....killed.......Skippy.......

[Big Dave]

(no room to stash the paper and a litre of milk down em...)



Remove those rolled up football socks first big boy.

[Mushu]

You....killed.......Skippy.......

I wouldn't worry about it, I've been driving around rural NSW for the last couple if weeks (about 4hrs north of Sydney) and the amount of dead roos on the side of the road is amazing, a ten minute drive any direction out of town would turn up atleast a couple. Given the price of kangaroo leather gear I have considered carrying a knife and skinning some of the fresher ones.

[Paul in NZ]

Remove those rolled up football socks first big boy.

No way - I've been shoplifting salami from the local dairy for years... I don't want to look out of proportion...

[ellipsis]

...in my earlier days the only leather jackets I ever saw had big ugly cunts inside them and my windbreaker with a thick jersey was about as much thought I could put into safety gear...oilskins seemed pretty much like body armour then...my older bro bought an old leather coat and cut the arms off to make leggings so his pants weren't wet when he got to work on his Francis Barnett...I ended up with leather patches leftover from that sewn onto my windbreaker...fuck, life was simple then...

[Paul in NZ]

I wouldn't worry about it, I've been driving around rural NSW for the last couple if weeks (about 4hrs north of Sydney) and the amount of dead roos on the side of the road is amazing, a ten minute drive any direction out of town would turn up atleast a couple. Given the price of kangaroo leather gear I have considered carrying a knife and skinning some of the fresher ones.

I wouldnt bother - its over rated. Just ask a kangaroo....

[Paul in NZ]

...in my earlier days the only leather jackets I ever saw had big ugly cunts inside them and my windbreaker with a thick jersey was about as much thought I could put into safety gear...oilskins seemed pretty much like body armour then...my older bro bought an old leather coat and cut the arms off to make leggings so his pants weren't wet when he got to work on his Francis Barnett...I ended up with leather patches leftover from that sewn onto my windbreaker...fuck, life was simple then...

Yup - I have still got my 'Union Steamship Company' yellow PVC jacket and trou ($20 to a wharfie mate and 10 mins with a bottle of meths to wipe off the lettering)... That was the height of luxury to me then....

Big cable knit jersey, woolie undies and pvc jacket...

Later I borrowed an old flying jacket - useless....

[Big Dave]

I wouldn't worry about it, I've been driving around rural NSW for the last couple if weeks (about 4hrs north of Sydney) and the amount of dead roos on the side of the road is amazing,


Aye. If you are riding north of Richmond past dusk - slow right down - or better still - stop for the night.

[Big Dave]

Yup - I have still got my 'Union Steamship Company' yellow PVC jacket and trou ($20 to a wharfie mate and 10 mins with a bottle of meths to wipe off the lettering)... That was the height of luxury to me then....

Big cable knit jersey, woolie undies and pvc jacket...

Later I borrowed an old flying jacket - useless....


My old man told me to go to the Army surplus store and buy a 'great coat'. He could be funny-cruel, my old man.
Coat weighed more than me and my CB450 combined when it was wet.
He also advised lining it with newspaper for warmth. I didn't buy that one however - no matter how often 'they did it in the depression'.
'Papier maché' body cast anyone?

[p.dath]

try 1tonne :)

I third that.
www.1tonne.co.nz

[Big Dave]

I like Rev'it.

I was partly sponsored by the importer and Motomail for my magazine work in NZ so I've used a fair bit of it.

Plus I've been using my own kit for over 6 years now and can vouch for its longevity - and integrity in a crash... OK, several crashes, but ADV riding doesn't count. Even the linings are all intact.

Good value for money.

[Paul in NZ]

My old man told me to go to the Army surplus store and buy a 'great coat'. He could be funny-cruel, my old man.
Coat weighed more than me and my CB450 combined when it was wet.
He also advised lining it with newspaper for warmth. I didn't buy that one however - no matter how often 'they did it in the depression'.
'Papier maché' body cast anyone?

I conned my then girl friend into making me some 'ski overalls'. Yeah - got wet and all the fluffy white stuff that keeps you warm ended up around my ankles.... sigh....

In the end I bought a $100 car as it was cheaper than a leather jacket....

[tigertim20]

my 1tonne stuff was pretty affordable and i can unfortunately confirm that it holds up exceptionally well in a high paced get-off.

earlier comments MIGHT well be very true,- cheap gear MIGHT last well in a crash.

Since you have family, and friends and a job and all that though, might be a better option to go for something for which you have seen/heard reviews for and can be sure of in regards to its performance in a crash though?
Its only an extra couple weeks worth if a few less beers on the weekend if you are short on coin!

[Big Dave]

'ski overalls'.

Now tell them about the rest of the outfit:

288380

[Grubber]

I like Rev'it.

I was partly sponsored by the importer and Motomail for my magazine work in NZ so I've used a fair bit of it.

Plus I've been using my own kit for over 6 years now and can vouch for its longevity - and integrity in a crash... OK, several crashes, but ADV riding doesn't count. Even the linings are all intact.

Good value for money.

I'm with you big fella.
I have been buying Rev it for a few years now and I've crashed a couple of one pieces and they have held together really well.
My textile touring gear has been awesome also. Had it for about 4 years now and still doesn't let the H2O through.
Price is about mid range i would have thought, so not bad gear overall for me.
Mind you Dave, i'm a bit like you, i got some good deals out of Motomail so made it easier.
but $2000 ish for a decent one piece is ok by me.

[pritch]

He also advised lining it with newspaper for warmth. I didn't buy that one however - no matter how often 'they did it in the depression'.


It does work though. Works even better if the paper is wrapped around hot chips. :whistle:

Then again that is only extemporising because of having been caught without the proper kit. Some of the handwarmers that the out-door shops sell could be handy to shove up the jumper if the weather turns to crap unexpectedly.

Meanwhile back with the kinky leather gear...

[Ender EnZed]

my 1tonne stuff was pretty affordable and i can unfortunately confirm that it holds up exceptionally well in a high paced get-off.

earlier comments MIGHT well be very true,- cheap gear MIGHT last well in a crash.

Since you have family, and friends and a job and all that though, might be a better option to go for something for which you have seen/heard reviews for and can be sure of in regards to its performance in a crash though?
Its only an extra couple weeks worth if a few less beers on the weekend if you are short on coin!

Yeah, my current gear cost >4x what 1tonne kit would've but I bought it because I had the money and I wanted approximately the best.

1tonne has a pretty solid rep in NZ and they already undercut all the major international brands by a significant amount. You'd have to be pretty fuckin tight for it to be necessary to go cheaper for new gear. Those listings in the OP might be alright for what the buyer wants them for, but when you can get a leather jacket and pants from an established, reputable company for ~$400 it seems kinda silly.

[AllanB]

I wonder if Drew heads out looking for the cheapest old hooker he can find. After all a fuck is a fuck surely ....... :crazy:

[Erelyes]

Unless someone has crashed in one of the cheap ones, they have no basis for comparison.

True. I was kinda hoping someone had bought one and came in saying yea or nay on them, comfort/fit/etc wise, or if I was really lucky had taken a 100k tumble in one.

This third one (http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=646822873) is interestingly made to measure at $239 with CE this and 1.2-1.3mm that. I guess it comes down to the stitching, quality of the armor, comfort and general good fit (and whether they're telling porkies). Although I've found the same general product lines with near identical descriptions under 3 different usernames (all ex Auckland)... hmmmm.

Bit like helmets, a $50 lid can protect as well as a $500 one, but you get no pinlock, lots of noise, optically iffy visors, lackluster parts support, etc.


I have the Berik SECA II and its a really comfy jacket, haven't crashed in it though. I found it great value for the dollars considering an equivalent Astars or Dainese would have been almost twice the price.

Yeah, tried it on instore and didn't wanna take it off. But SWMBO said 'My bloody wedding dress was cheaper than that'. I think it might have been a hint but I'm not sure :scratch:


Problem is - you just can't always go by price either ie my then state of the art $1000 Spidi NT tour is now as waterproof as a sponge. A new $300 one will last longer than it did because technology moves on. (ie a cheap new jacket now is most likely better than a cheap new jacket was 10 years ago)... Its more about fitness for purpose and what is the intended use.

Very true, shoulda said what I'm doing I suppose. 20-25m commute twice a day most weekdays. And the odd weekend cruise with some moderate fanging. I guess longterm I might do a trackday but would prolly get an ugly secondhand 1piece if I did, so thats moot.

Can agree that pricey gear can be shit, too. Sometimes manufacturers just have a mare.


my 1tonne stuff was pretty affordable and i can unfortunately confirm that it holds up exceptionally well in a high paced get-off.

earlier comments MIGHT well be very true,- cheap gear MIGHT last well in a crash.

Since you have family, and friends and a job and all that though, might be a better option to go for something for which you have seen/heard reviews for and can be sure of in regards to its performance in a crash though?
Its only an extra couple weeks worth if a few less beers on the weekend if you are short on coin!

Mmm, really like the look of the 1tonne terminator jacket at the mo. Lot of jacket for $270, I'd forgotten about 1tonne and it puts the trademe stuff into perspective.

[Hmmmmark]

This thread's been quite informative, 1tonne seems to have a great rep and good prices so I'm considering getting a pile of gear - anyone had experiences with their helmets or the Ballistic Waterproof jacket? I'm looking to get something that'll serve me in all kinds of weather for daily commuting

[GDOBSSOR]

What I've done is bought NWA winter and summerweight gloves and spent my first paycheck on some textiles - The total was just over $450 for the lot. Comparitively, it's probably not that much to spend on protective gear and I'd be interested to see whether my gear would survive a real big accident - however, a uni student who spent less than 2k on the bike to start with doesn't want to spend huge amounts on safety gear (not to discount the importance of it - I feel naked without my jacket, boots and gloves!)

[sedub]

You can find a good deal on quality gear if you shop around/are lucky.

I got my Jacket for $200 from my local motorcycle shop marked down from 600, and it's great - I haven't crash tested it, but its obviously well put together.

[p.dath]

This thread's been quite informative, 1tonne seems to have a great rep and good prices so I'm considering getting a pile of gear - anyone had experiences with their helmets or the Ballistic Waterproof jacket? I'm looking to get something that'll serve me in all kinds of weather for daily commuting

I've never used their helmets, but I'm pretty sure there is a review on here for their jacket. Do a search.

[F5 Dave]

This will fill up with a bunch of people who have no idea, offering dribble as fact.. . .

Ohh, keen to make up the numbers



Yeah .. that's right.

I prefer to spend a little more money protecting my skin .. and I had one leather jacket (custom made by Dusty Rhodes) that went down the road four times - it was still in good nick and I out grew it (middle age spread is a bitch)
. ..
Who? my Leda (Dusty) jecket was bought 2nd hand (lightly crashed) off a mate who bought it from Scooter centre in mid 80s (as it was back in the day) for $330, they promptly went up to $600 so the $300 he charged me was a bit bitter but not bad. I wore it for a million miles even a spell racing in it with a zip together mod. Got Dusty to extend it slightly, but finally grew out of it (So he made me another very similar one but with much more armour).

The wiff then inherited it as it had enough room for extraa layers wimmin like. Still in action today looking good 30 years on.

Buy quality, buy once.

[ellipsis]

...Preserve Nature
Wear A Helmet....

[Flip]

Ohh, keen to make up the numbers



Who? my Leda (Dusty) jecket was bought 2nd hand (lightly crashed) off a mate who bought it from Scooter centre in mid 80s (as it was back in the day) for $330, they promptly went up to $600 so the $300 he charged me was a bit bitter but not bad. I wore it for a million miles even a spell racing in it with a zip together mod. Got Dusty to extend it slightly, but finally grew out of it (So he made me another very similar one but with much more armour).

The wiff then inherited it as it had enough room for extraa layers wimmin like. Still in action today looking good 30 years on.

Buy quality, buy once.

I am another owner of a 25 yo dusty jacket.

[skinman]

I have a 1 tonne leather jacket. overall a nice jacket, moderately waterproof not because the jacket itself leaks but water gets in around the neck as the collar is a little low and loose. I think the arms could be a bit longer to allow a better overlap to gloves. I went down & tried it on to get the correct size for me, its a nice ride, I did an overnighter at the campground. I switched from textile as the leather is a better fit and my textile was no longer waterproof at all.

[russd7]

and my textile was no longer waterproof at all.

textile jacket (supposedly 100% water proof) soaked second time wearing it, 1Tonne textile trou, again supposedly 100% waterproof, soaked first time wearing them, conclusion, they don't know what rain is, getting my leathers repaired and going back to them and a drizabone, never got wet in the setup.

[GrayWolf]

you get what you pay for.

I own 'several' jackets both leather and textile...
I have 2 cheapy leathers I wear for 'casual' not for riding, both are from online retailers of 'bike gear'....

Thickness? 1.2 -1.4mm is THIN, remembering especially that NZ has some of the worlds most abrasive road surfaces. (good quality will be 2mm or thicker. or 'double paneled' in critical areas)
Secondly, the 'quaility'? of the actual leather is what I'd call 'paperlike' in it's feel, not a nice supple, or, the 'stiff' feel of thick leather.

Stitching? any GOOD jacket has double stitching, which will be of the 'hidden' type. Exposed stitching WILL become abraded in the event of, and the seam WILL rupture, exposing the flesh underneath. Both of these 'cheap bike jackets' have areas of exposed seams, and as I found out by chance, several places are only SINGLE stitched, on one of them the seam where the arm joins the body of the jacket. Not exactly a 'critical joint' is it???

My quality leather jackets weigh noticeably heavier than the cheapies, nuff said!

[george formby]

All my experience with cheap gear has been the same. It does not last. Protection in an off is a moot point, really. A $3000 race suit will not help if you hit a power pole.
Cheap gear goes at the seams, zips crap out or come away, studs pop out, cuffs & collars fray, they rip under the arms etc. Quite often the sizing & cut is a lottery.

[Erelyes]

Thickness? 1.2 -1.4mm is THIN, remembering especially that NZ has some of the worlds most abrasive road surfaces. (good quality will be 2mm or thicker. or 'double paneled' in critical areas)

I have never seen anything advertised as 2mm thick. Everything from 1tonne (http://www.1tonne.co.nz/index.php?page=listingDetails&prodid=103&sco=&categoryid=3) to qmoto (http://www.qmoto.co.nz/gear-shop/qmoto/qrace-jackets?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=35&category_id=5)to a* (http://www.alpinestars.com/moto/racing-replica-1-piece-leather-suit.html#.UlnEJlDk-dY) is around 1.2-1.4mm. Care to link an example?


Both of these 'cheap bike jackets' have areas of exposed seams, and as I found out by chance, several places are only SINGLE stitched, on one of them the seam where the arm joins the body of the jacket. Not exactly a 'critical joint' is it???

Ah, cool, the jacket you refer to finding out by chance - was it one of those particular trademe ones or???

[Drew]

Those exposed seams, are often a 'closing stitch'. It makes it possible to repair things.

[tigertim20]

you get what you pay for.

I own 'several' jackets both leather and textile...
I have 2 cheapy leathers I wear for 'casual' not for riding, both are from online retailers of 'bike gear'....
.................................

My quality leather jackets weigh noticeably heavier than the cheapies, nuff said!


yes and no. if something seems like such a good deal that it's too good to be true, then chances are, it probably is. That said, you also reach a point where you are paying a premium just for the logo on the side as well. Trick is to find a balance so that you are buying good quality gear, without paying absurd prices just so you can wank on about the brand or the cut of your suit.

Best bet is to pick something you like, then try to ask around and see what personal recommendations/experiences you can get from other people who have owned and crashed in the gear you are looking at.

[John_H]

Buy two and wear one over the other. I reckon that would be easily just as good as a high quality one.

[GrayWolf]

I have never seen anything advertised as 2mm thick. Everything from 1tonne (http://www.1tonne.co.nz/index.php?page=listingDetails&prodid=103&sco=&categoryid=3) to qmoto (http://www.qmoto.co.nz/gear-shop/qmoto/qrace-jackets?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=35&category_id=5)to a* (http://www.alpinestars.com/moto/racing-replica-1-piece-leather-suit.html#.UlnEJlDk-dY) is around 1.2-1.4mm. Care to link an example?

Exactly my point 1tonne-Qmoto, Cnell all are basically budget price suppliers...
Yes you're right there are those that buy gear to wank off on it (Paint job helmets of 'race riders' is a fine example) I am referring to gear that you buy as a KNOWN quality brand, not the 'wank factor'....

As for the thickness of leather, here's a link to a site discussing leather quality... read the bit about fine/full grained leather (highest quality hides)

http://www.chuckhawks.com/motorcycle_leather.htm

and Byson leather's in the UK/.. 1.5 to 2mm thick is recommended
http://www.bysonleather.co.uk/BYSON%20LEATHER%20AboutLeathers.htm

quote:
Leather for motorcycle clothing.

You are buying protective clothing so don't sacrifice safety and function to form and fashion. It could be a blood sacrifice.

Leather is used for motorcycle clothing because of it's abrasion resistance, comfort and appearance. "Moto" grade leather for bike use wants to be at least 1.5 - 2mm thick to give a reasonable degree of protection. Thinner than this and it will not protect your valuable hide if you slide down the road (the exception here is kangaroo hide which because of its structure can provide equivalent levels of protection at 1½ mm thickness). Leather up to 3mm thick is flexible enough to use for leathers but over and about this thickness you start noticing the sheer weight of the stuff. A compromise is often used where especially vulnerable areas - hips, arse, shoulders elbows and knees - are "double leathered" to provide extra protection without incurring the weight penalty of a thicker suit / jacket. Additional protection in these areas is also provided by body armor and Kevlar™ backing. Thinned down leather is also used for lettering and artwork but this is not thick enough to provide significant protection. Full grain leather is the best quality, but is not colour fast and is expensive. The best "moto" grade leather is "top grain" and "corrected grain" which are refinished leathers. These are lower quality than full grain leather but more practical.
Just a quick aside here. Leather does not stretch. At least, leather suitable for motorcycle clothing does not stretch appreciably in any sensible time frame. So if a sales person sells you a suit / jacket / jeans which are a bit on the tight side, they are going to stay on the tight side and they will not be comfortable. Ever. end quote:


Ah, cool, the jacket you refer to finding out by chance - was it one of those particular trademe ones or???

yes it was a trademe advertiser, but not one of the jackets being discussed by the OP, it was from a 'known' trader, is all I will say. I found out about the seam (arm to body) due to the fact a poorly cut liner seam split, as it was 'smaller' than the actual jacket. Thankfully both of these jackets are just used for casual wear, not for riding.

[Road kill]

Six months ago I bought a Cnell jacket,was going to buy 1Tonne at the same $$ but I could drop into Cnells shop and try on and inspect so I did that instead.

Got it home an the Mrs who buys and reconditions saddles as a side line went over it an gave it the thumbs up,so I went back last week an bought a new pair of leather jeans as well.

The only issue is after riding in the same old Leather Fashions jacket and what ever leather jeans since 1988 I now look like I just stepped out of AMPS after buying all the bikie gear to go with my new Hog.

Mind you,I didn't pay $800 for my new jacket like I did for the LF jacket and I'm going to be dead before this jacket is so it's all good.

[1tonne]

You may find that a suit made of 2mm leather to be not as comfortable or flexible as one that has thinner leather. You may notice that on many suits including ours we have double layers of leather on the buttocks area. So that means that there is more than 2mm of leather on the butt. Thinner leather is used in places that need more flexibility while thicker or double layers are used in area that need extra protection.

[Robert Taylor]

All my experience with cheap gear has been the same. It does not last. Protection in an off is a moot point, really. A $3000 race suit will not help if you hit a power pole.
Cheap gear goes at the seams, zips crap out or come away, studs pop out, cuffs & collars fray, they rip under the arms etc. Quite often the sizing & cut is a lottery.

There is no evidence of MotoGP or WSBK riders wearing and trusting in the said brand. Whilst there are of course variables the level of protection is almost directly linked to the cost and the pedigree of the brand.

Gravel rash is a similiar event at most points of the globe and doesnt discriminate whether you are racing at a very top level or get taken out whilst you are on the way to the local Chinese dairy for your legal highs.

Back in 85 I had a major accident and am very thankful for the Dainese gear that I was wearing and Bell helmet. Many years later Alpinestars is doing a stellar job and its one of only a handful that Id even consider.

Cheap always costs in other ways.

[1tonne]

There is no evidence of MotoGP or WSBK riders wearing and trusting in the said brand. Whilst there are of course variables the level of protection is almost directly linked to the cost and the pedigree of the brand.

"Said brand". I am not sure if you are talking about "1Tonne" or not. I am presuming that you are not as we have Sam Croft (numer24) who wears our gear in the European Junior Cup.
http://www.worldsbk.com/en/teams-e-riders/ejc/2013.html
http://www.europeanjuniorcup.com/europeanjuniorcup/riders/?rider=sam_croft

[Robert Taylor]

"Said brand". I am not sure if you are talking about "1Tonne" or not. I am presuming that you are not as we have Sam Croft (numer24) who wears our gear in the European Junior Cup.
http://www.worldsbk.com/en/teams-e-riders/ejc/2013.html
http://www.europeanjuniorcup.com/europeanjuniorcup/riders/?rider=sam_croft

Respectfully , my points remain nonetheless.

[Floppy disk]

That "leather" looks like a cat's skin. :corn:

[macka77]

Respectfully , my points remain nonetheless.

ive never seen a new alpinestars one piece at a race meeting yet , you will spot them sipping latte an having brunch on a sunday morning trip or on their shiny new bike
your point is

[Robert Taylor]

ive never seen a new alpinestars one piece at a race meeting yet , you will spot them sipping latte an having brunch on a sunday morning trip or on their shiny new bike
your point is

So you don't watch MotoGP and WSBK? So you are also not aware that the three Spaniards who almost always are 1,2, 3 on the MotoGP podium all wear topline protection from Alpinestars?
Its also sounds like you have an ''us and them'' mentality. Im not fond of latte myself or the often maligned image of latte drinkers but it might or might not have occurred to you that many people in general ( irrespective of whether they have a latte addiction or not ) may have worked really hard to have the means to purchase their ''shiny new bike''. And good on them!
I think that as a generalisation its a little disingenuous to make out that budget priced products will perform just as well as the pedigree and higher priced products that have extensive R&D facilities that assist no end in the work that goes into achieving a high level of protection.
My limited little world of motorcycle riding is restricted these days to test riding suspension improvements several times per week. ( Riding for recreation escaped my world 20 odd years ago ) The test routine is not a massive distance or a great deal of time but I still see the need to ( always ) gear up with high protection, quality riding gear. Dainese / Bell helped save me from major trauma coming up to 30 years ago, with that experience in mind Im not about to increase my chances of gravel rash or head injuries any further by purchasing budget protection.

[1tonne]

Paying more often does work out to get you a better quality product but it is not always so. A lot of the time you are paying a lot extra for the name. If you can get rid of that extra name cost you will be paying a lot less. We use manufacturers that are some of the best in their game and we do not put on the massive mark up for our brand name.
Our Races suits are very much up there.

[Robert Taylor]

Paying more often does work out to get you a better quality product but it is not always so. A lot of the time you are paying a lot extra for the name. If you can get rid of that extra name cost you will be paying a lot less. We use manufacturers that are some of the best in their game and we do not put on the massive mark up for our brand name.
Our Races suits are very much up there.

The point I made ( of many ) has been missed. Those name brands have huge R&D facility, the results often copied by the ''followers'' in the industry who have no R&D budget. R&D inevitably costs.

In the end people will choose what they want and the reason for price differences are very real, especially where manufacturers find ways of cheapening product ( and Im not only talking about leather ) Of course its always only too easy to say there are huge markups when in fact the reasons are usually more compelling and devoid of emotive and simplistic assumptions

[Erelyes]

disingenuous

Careful, Edbear might sue you for using that word.

I think the argument has swung here from 'Cheap vs expensive' to 'Midrange vs expensive'. I would consider 1tonne, Qmoto etc midrange.

No question that Dianese, A*s etc are top end of the market, but like most products, the top end of the market gives you a much higher pricetag for a little extra benefit.

The original Q was whether the cheap jackets on trademe can perform anywhere near something brandname. Noone's had experience with the ones I linked (Graywolf tried something similar); I was kinda hoping someone had binned in one.

Nevermind, general concensus seems to be that one can get a proven product (e.g. 1tonne, qmoto, cnell) for not much more than the trademe stuff. A*, Dianese are just out my pricerange (secondhand excepted)

Cheers

[Robert Taylor]

Careful, Edbear might sue you for using that word.

I think the argument has swung here from 'Cheap vs expensive' to 'Midrange vs expensive'. I would consider 1tonne, Qmoto etc midrange.

No question that Dianese, A*s etc are top end of the market, but like most products, the top end of the market gives you a much higher pricetag for a little extra benefit.

The original Q was whether the cheap jackets on trademe can perform anywhere near something brandname. Noone's had experience with the ones I linked (Graywolf tried something similar); I was kinda hoping someone had binned in one.

Nevermind, general concensus seems to be that one can get a proven product (e.g. 1tonne, qmoto, cnell) for not much more than the trademe stuff. A*, Dianese are just out my pricerange (secondhand excepted)

Cheers

We will have to agree to disagree then. There is one thing though that most of us will agree on, too many people ride motorcycles with inadequate levels of protection.

[1tonne]

We will have to agree to disagree then. There is one thing though that most of us will agree on, too many people ride motorcycles with inadequate levels of protection.

Yes your are right. They are dumb if they do.

[1tonne]

The point I made ( of many ) has been missed. Those name brands have huge R&D facility, the results often copied by the ''followers'' in the industry who have no R&D budget. R&D inevitably costs.

You are also right with this. A home grown NZ Brand cannot put millions of dollars into R&D. In saying this it's not long before our manufactures catch up to the big name brands. (Note: Our manufacturers do make for some pretty big brands anyway)

[tigertim20]

So you don't watch MotoGP and WSBK? So you are also not aware that the three Spaniards who almost always are 1,2, 3 on the MotoGP podium all wear topline protection from Alpinestars?
Its also sounds like you have an ''us and them'' mentality. Im not fond of latte myself or the often maligned image of latte drinkers but it might or might not have occurred to you that many people in general ( irrespective of whether they have a latte addiction or not ) may have worked really hard to have the means to purchase their ''shiny new bike''. And good on them!
I think that as a generalisation its a little disingenuous to make out that budget priced products will perform just as well as the pedigree and higher priced products that have extensive R&D facilities that assist no end in the work that goes into achieving a high level of protection.
My limited little world of motorcycle riding is restricted these days to test riding suspension improvements several times per week. ( Riding for recreation escaped my world 20 odd years ago ) The test routine is not a massive distance or a great deal of time but I still see the need to ( always ) gear up with high protection, quality riding gear. Dainese / Bell helped save me from major trauma coming up to 30 years ago, with that experience in mind Im not about to increase my chances of gravel rash or head injuries any further by purchasing budget protection.

would you not agree though that cheaper / mid range gear today is not close to, if not as good as good gear from 30 years ago (or less).
It doesnt take long for the tech that the big brands develop through expenive R and D to filter down to other brands, and become more affordable, and available on less expensive gear.

[kevfromcoro]

I bought a black jacket years ago... and its still in good cond. payed a bit for it but its still got lots of life in it..
also I wear a brown leather when I travel.. its got about 7 pockets which all zip up.
pay the money and get good quality.. its worth it
leather for ever

[Robert Taylor]

would you not agree though that cheaper / mid range gear today is not close to, if not as good as good gear from 30 years ago (or less).
It doesnt take long for the tech that the big brands develop through expenive R and D to filter down to other brands, and become more affordable, and available on less expensive gear.

They copy, yes. Without sharing the R&D costs ( like so much product )

[Erelyes]

They copy, yes. Without sharing the R&D costs ( like so much product )

It's the way of the world, innit. Of all the industries where it occurs, it's perhaps most forgivable when it comes to gear that reduces injury / saves lives.

'sides there's still a difference in materials between manufacturers. Say, one might use hard plastic compound sliders on a boot, and the other use titanium. One costs a darn sight more for a measureable yet minor improvement.

[tigertim20]

They copy, yes. Without sharing the R&D costs ( like so much product )

so if your suit was enough to save your ass 30 years ago, does it not stand to reason that some of the less high-end stuff today is equal in terms of quality to what saved you 30 years ago?.
The reall difference is that places like A-stars get the new tech first, and it takes a couple of years to filter down. those with the desire and the money purchase the new tech a little before everyone else can afford it, no different to anything else really is it.

[Floppy disk]

so if your suit was enough to save your ass 30 years ago, does it not stand to reason that some of the less high-end stuff today is equal in terms of quality to what saved you 30 years ago?

errrrr! no! There is no correlation between the 2 ends, therefore you can't generalize it. The fact that something of old was good has nothing to do with the possibility of something new might or might not be good, unless they share many similar attributes (brand, and/or type of cloth, etc.)<_<

[Robert Taylor]

When you seriously look hard at pedigree higher end product ( any product, not only leather jackets ) you note more and more a lot of subtle things that are missed in lower cost product. These subtle engineering niceties go up to make overall a better product.

Take my beloved Ohlins shocks for example......the hydraulic preloaders on many of them are not there only to facilitate ease of spring preload changes. The piston is also deliberately designed to ''rock '' a little in relation to the main body. This is to compensate for spring untruth ( its notoriously difficult to make springs perfectly square ) and therefore to reduce side thrust on the main shock bushings and shaft. Thereby reducing friction, making the shock more responsive and reducing longer term wear.

Product might appear to be ''the same'' to a five second observation but actually they are not. Excellent engineering and R&D obviously costs

[Robert Taylor]

so if your suit was enough to save your ass 30 years ago, does it not stand to reason that some of the less high-end stuff today is equal in terms of quality to what saved you 30 years ago?.
The reall difference is that places like A-stars get the new tech first, and it takes a couple of years to filter down. those with the desire and the money purchase the new tech a little before everyone else can afford it, no different to anything else really is it.

Dont though overlook the difference in material specifications and quality between higher end and lower end product. How do you make a product cheaper? ( Any product ) Much of it is in the specification grade of the materials you use. Look at cheaper handlebar levers, they look pretty in their packets but the material specification is closer to weetbix and the tolerancing is very poor. ( ( Floppy levers ) Reality

[GrayWolf]

so if your suit was enough to save your ass 30 years ago, does it not stand to reason that some of the less high-end stuff today is equal in terms of quality to what saved you 30 years ago?.
The reall difference is that places like A-stars get the new tech first, and it takes a couple of years to filter down. those with the desire and the money purchase the new tech a little before everyone else can afford it, no different to anything else really is it.

Actually, NO.. overall much of today's 'safety gear' is very much 'form over function'...
Example: most 'supposed' Cordura safety gear is 600D, yet if you go and read on the tests you really need 8/900D weave for 'real' abrasion resistance. Remembering that NZ's 'volcanic chip' road surfaces are one of the worlds most abrasive.
Secondly the 'form over function'...
Do you REALLY think that a pair of trousers held 'closed' by a single zip, and 'poppers or velcro' are actually going to stay covering your ass/legs if you 'rotate' 180' and slide head first? The old style leather pants (bib n brace) or the old 'belt buckle' pants WILL stay in place when your ass slides down the road..
Jackets?
Why is it that the really expensive jackets Cordura or Leather are 'double zipped' on the jacket front? Yet 90% of the modern ones are only single zipped and often lack a 'double breasted' flap of any size/substance under it....
No there is a lot of major 'cost cutting' and 'fashionable look' going on, that has taken function very much out of the equation.....

[duckonin]

Why is it that the really expensive jackets Cordura or Leather are 'double zipped' on the jacket front? Yet 90% of the modern ones are only single zipped and often lack a 'double breasted' flap of any size/substance under it...


GrayWolf, double zips, are for those that ate too many pies over the winter. For this reason, most have to use Use zip number two , saves buying another jacket.

[Floppy disk]

GrayWolf, double zips, are for those that ate too many pies over the winter. For this reason, most have to use Use zip number two , saves buying another jacket.

I doubt it. I did not see normal jackets, suites and shirts double zipped or double anything for those same people. Adding a bit more cloth/leather would be cheaper and reduces the design and test effort than adding a second zip.

[p.dath]

I doubt it. I did not see normal jackets, suites and shirts double zipped or double anything for those same people. Adding a bit more cloth/leather would be cheaper and reduces the design and test effort than adding a second zip.

He was joking.