ACC Rant - Advice appreciated

[oneblackflag]

Been off work now for over a month due to a back injury that happened at work (probably need surgery... still waiting on results of scans). Boss has now terminated my employment because I can't work (sustained injury from working for him :tugger:). ACC.... now tells me that my unused annual leave (about 4-5 weeks worth) will offset my ACC payments :mad: so in effect they basicly pinch my leave payment... this seems horribly unfair to me, I get swindled out of my money whereas someone who didn't have any annual leave owing would just keep receiving ACC...:weird::violin::violin::violin::violin:

Anyone else had this happen to them? Or anyone know how to avoid them getting their dirty hands on what's rightfully mine? I will seek some professional advice on this but would love to hear from YOU :mellow:

[nzspokes]

That doesnt seem right to me from recent experience. Yes I would be getting advice.

[Road kill]

You can get legal advice and end up spending more than your going to lose by arguing the point with ACC.

Not much about ACC seems fair when your getting reamed by them but your wasting your time arguing.

Sorry dude, I've been at their mercy a couple of times myself now and feel your pain.

[Laava]

Yes they will take your holiday pay into account as will WINZ. Try not to stab anyone!

[oneblackflag]

Try not to stab anyone!

One day at a time... :brick:

[hayd3n]

take a grievence out with employer :) :yes:
ex workm8 did this and had the dole before the week ended
he never finished the case just filed it ,and got the dole ,and spent his holiday money

[Ocean1]

Firstly, your boss can't sack you for being unable to work. Get someone of a legal bent to write to him explaining that he's responsible for paying you until ACC accept liability for your income. If you can't afford a lawyer try asking WINZ to sort him out.

Edit: the boss can eventually sack you under what's called "frustration of contract", but we're talking fucking months before he gets to do that.

Second, ACC is supposed to be a last resort revenue, your holiday pay and any other income you have outstanding is supposed to be used up first.

[Mom]

Did ACC and your employer accept and agree you back injury happened at work? If they did you have been entitled to 80% of your wages ( averages and percentages apply) from the day you were unable to work. Your boss pays the first week, ACC from then on in. ACC will encourage and support (read PUSH) you back to work. You cant be sacked for being injured, you cant. If you have been sacked inside a month, you have a really good case against your employer, that is ridiculous!

I reckon there is a whole lot more to this story than what you are sharing. Let us have the full story, there are plenty of us that have had time off on paid ACC, for weeks, and have kept our jobs.

Your holiday pay will only be an issue if you accept it. If you get paid it out, then you are going to be docked your ACC money. No double dipping FFS!

[oneblackflag]

Firstly, your boss can't sack you for being unable to work. Get someone of a legal bent to write to him explaining that he's responsible for paying you until ACC accept liability for your income. If you can't afford a lawyer try asking WINZ to sort him out.

Edit: the boss can eventually sack you under what's called "frustration of contract", but we're talking fucking months before he gets to do that.

Second, ACC is supposed to be a last resort revenue, your holiday pay and any other income you have outstanding is supposed to be used up first.

ACC has been paying me so far and will continue I believe until I'm fit to work again (except for any holiday leave that's outstanding)

My contract does have a clause for dismissal due to injury or sickness.

[oneblackflag]

Did ACC and your employer accept and agree you back injury happened at work? If they did you have been entitled to 80% of your wages ( averages and percentages apply) from the day you were unable to work. Your boss pays the first week, ACC from then on in. ACC will encourage and support (read PUSH) you back to work. You cant be sacked for being injured, you cant. If you have been sacked inside a month, you have a really good case against your employer, that is ridiculous!

I reckon there is a whole lot more to this story than what you are sharing. Let us have the full story, there are plenty of us that have had time off on paid ACC, for weeks, and have kept our jobs.

It's coming up to 6 weeks since accident... and yes boss paid 1st week then ACC @ 80% nothing extra to it. I may have to go my boss for unfair dismissal....

[Mom]

then ACC @ 80% nothing extra to it.

What extra were you expecting to get? That is what you are entitled to.

[oneblackflag]

The reason the boss sacked me is that it may be a long time till I even get an operation, then there is recovery time on that...

[Ocean1]

My contract does have a clause for dismissal due to injury or sickness.

You can't contract out of employment law. No matter what your boss or your employment contract says he can't sack you for being unable to work, end of story.

[oneblackflag]

What extra were you expecting to get? That is what you are entitled to.

the "nothing extra to it" is regarding you comment that im not giving you the whole story.

I don't believe getting holiday pay is double dipping... as If I had already taken all my holidays before accident they would have nothing to dock

[mikeey01]

My advise, get educated real quick, read......

http://www.dol.govt.nz/er/holidaysandleave/sickleave/acc-relationship.asp
http://www.acc.co.nz/making-a-claim/what-support-can-i-get/ECI0028
You are entitled to 80% of your weekly wages, your employer has to pay you the first weeks wages.

ERA related
http://www.peoplesmart.co.nz/SolveIT/Legal-requirements-questions/Can-I-terminate-my-employees-contract-if-they-are-unable-to-work-due-to-injury-or-illness/

[oneblackflag]

My advise, get educated real quick, go to and have a quick read

http://www.dol.govt.nz/er/holidaysandleave/sickleave/acc-relationship.asp

You are entitled to 80% of your weekly wages, your employer has to pay you the first weeks wages.

Yes this is what has happened. I'm moaning about ACC taking my unpaid annual leave and the fact I've been sacked for having an injury at work which has led me to not be able to do said work. Thanks for that link

[Smifffy]

Contact your boss. Contact a relevant union. Contact Mobie (old DOL). If you got injured at work, then the DOL point of view is that work injured you. ACC won't give much of a shit if you got sacked, but Mobie may very well, and if work is in any way culpable, so will the district court judge hearing any case that mobie might bring. You'd be eligible for reparations. Also a good case for a PG for unjustified dismissal, although an ER ajudicator will consider whether your own actions contributed.

Fuck your boss. Obviously a cunt.

[oneblackflag]

My advise, get educated real quick, read......

http://www.dol.govt.nz/er/holidaysandleave/sickleave/acc-relationship.asp
http://www.acc.co.nz/making-a-claim/what-support-can-i-get/ECI0028
You are entitled to 80% of your weekly wages, your employer has to pay you the first weeks wages.

ERA related
http://www.peoplesmart.co.nz/SolveIT/Legal-requirements-questions/Can-I-terminate-my-employees-contract-if-they-are-unable-to-work-due-to-injury-or-illness/


Thankyou mikeey,

Your second link has been especially helpful. (I work on a dairy farm). I think I have been unfairly sacked...

[oneblackflag]

Contact your boss. Contact a relevant union. Contact Mobie (old DOL). If you got injured at work, then the DOL point of view is that work injured you. ACC won't give much of a shit if you got sacked, but Mobie may very well, and if work is in any way culpable, so will the district court judge hearing any case that mobie might bring. You'd be eligible for reparations. Also a good case for a PG for unjustified dismissal, although an ER ajudicator will consider whether your own actions contributed.

Fuck your boss. Obviously a cunt.

Yes thanks I will. Yea he is a cunt...

[Oakie]

Firstly, your boss can't sack you for being unable to work. Get someone of a legal bent to write to him explaining that he's responsible for paying you until ACC accept liability for your income. If you can't afford a lawyer try asking WINZ to sort him out.

Edit: the boss can eventually sack you under what's called "frustration of contract", but we're talking fucking months before he gets to do that. .

Ah yes he can sack that quickly and no it doesn't have to be months. I nearly did it at the start of this week to someone who had been off for a month. In our case she was the only person in that position in our organisation and we couldn't carry it empty. It looked like it was going to be a few more weeks but fortunately she got a clearance to come back on Monday and saved us both some grief. There's no time guidline in legislation but the decision still has to be one a reasonable employer could take.

If it's the one person in the organisation who does that role you can go a whole lot quicker than if it's one machinist out of the hundred you employ.

Oh, there is still a correct process to go through ... meetings, oportunity for feedback etc. You can't just say "your job is gone"

[oneblackflag]

Ah yes he can sack that quickly and no it doesn't have to be months. I nearly did it at the start of this week to someone who had been off for a month. In our case she was the only person in that position in our organisation and we couldn't carry it empty. It looked like it was going to be a few more weeks but fortunately she got a clearance to come back on Monday and saved us both some grief. There's no time guidline in legislation but the decision still has to be one a reasonable employer could take.

Yes I do believe it can be done. My employer hasn't followed an acceptable process, or even got a medical opinion on when I can resume work, he could fill my job on a temp basis and I could do light duties (something he doesn't want me doing).

[Smifffy]

Ah yes he can sack that quickly and no it doesn't have to be months. I nearly did it at the start of this week to someone who had been off for a month. In our case she was the only person in that position in our organisation and we couldn't carry it empty. It looked like it was going to be a few more weeks but fortunately she got a clearance to come back on Monday and saved us both some grief. There's no time guidline in legislation but the decision still has to be one a reasonable employer could take.

If it's the one person in the organisation who does that role you can go a whole lot quicker than if it's one machinist out of the hundred you employ.

Oh, there is still a correct process to go through ... meetings, oportunity for feedback etc. You can't just say "your job is gone"

Surely you'd have to prove that it would cause undue hardship to hire a temp? That's what a reasonable employer might do.

[Oakie]

Surely you'd have to prove that it would cause undue hardship to hire a temp? That's what a reasonable employer might do.

Every case is different. In same cases a temp would be a good alternative to letting an employee go. Wouldn't have worked for us because temps for that role are rare an a lot more expensive than having a staff member in there. The only other 'Frustration of Contract' case I've been involved in was with a young lady who developed quite bad epiliepsy ... and I'm talking multiple seizures a day in the end. She couldn't work, there was no end in site so we terminated.

[Oakie]

You can't contract out of employment law. No matter what your boss or your employment contract says he can't sack you for being unable to work, end of story.

You cannot contract out of employment law ... true ... but this situation is allowed for in employment law so the boss is actually complying with the law (although in this case, perhaps he hasn't done all the steps necessary so perhaps not complied fully.)

'Sacked' has connotations of it being the employee's fault. What is happening is something like "I hired you to work 40 hours a week for me. You've become hurt and now you can't work for at least 9 weeks before surgery and then perhaps another 6 weeks after that. Sorry but you are unable to keep your contract with me to provide me with 40 hours a week so I'm terminating the contract".

[Berries]

The only other 'Frustration of Contract' case I've been involved in was with a young lady who developed quite bad epiliepsy ... and I'm talking multiple seizures a day in the end. She couldn't work, there was no end in site so we terminated.
That's a bit serious. Couldn't you have just sacked her?

[Akzle]

Yes this is what has happened. I'm moaning about ACC taking my unpaid annual leave and the fact I've been sacked for having an injury at work which has led me to not be able to do said work. Thanks for that link

and those are the two issues and they're separate.
on the up side, you now have a lot of time at home in front of google to learn to write strongly worded letters and annoy ACC on the telephone. (daily at least, hourly if you're that kind of guy)

as for the unfair dismissal, the employment relations authority will provide advice and i believe even mediation for free.

worst comes to it, get to legislation.co.nz and read the relevant jewshit.

[Smifffy]

You cannot contract out of employment law ... true ... but this situation is allowed for in employment law so the boss is actually complying with the law (although in this case, perhaps he hasn't done all the steps necessary so perhaps not complied fully.)

'Sacked' has connotations of it being the employee's fault. What is happening is something like "I hired you to work 40 hours a week for me. You've become hurt and now you can't work for at least 9 weeks before surgery and then perhaps another 6 weeks after that. Sorry but you are unable to keep your contract with me to provide me with 40 hours a week so I'm terminating the contract".

The thing that really needs to be established is: Is it "You've become hurt"? or is it "We have caused you to get hurt through being here, and our failure to provide a safe work place."?

[Ocean1]

You cannot contract out of employment law ... true ... but this situation is allowed for in employment law so the boss is actually complying with the law (although in this case, perhaps he hasn't done all the steps necessary so perhaps not complied fully.)

'Sacked' has connotations of it being the employee's fault. What is happening is something like "I hired you to work 40 hours a week for me. You've become hurt and now you can't work for at least 9 weeks before surgery and then perhaps another 6 weeks after that. Sorry but you are unable to keep your contract with me to provide me with 40 hours a week so I'm terminating the contract".

Yes, but as you pointed out the process and it's resolution has to be what a court would call "reasonable". And in most cases however "reasonable" we might consider such a move I'd say sacking (or terminating) an employee pretty much immediately after a work related injury wouldn't be seen as reasonable under employment law.

I once had someone on my books damned near a year after he fell down some steps (out of hrs) because that's what the court deemed "reasonable".

Fuckin' ouch.

[Katiepie]

Been off work now for over a month due to a back injury that happened at work (probably need surgery... still waiting on results of scans). Boss has now terminated my employment because I can't work (sustained injury from working for him :tugger:). ACC.... now tells me that my unused annual leave (about 4-5 weeks worth) will offset my ACC payments :mad: so in effect they basicly pinch my leave payment... this seems horribly unfair to me, I get swindled out of my money whereas someone who didn't have any annual leave owing would just keep receiving ACC...:weird::violin::violin::violin::violin:

Anyone else had this happen to them? Or anyone know how to avoid them getting their dirty hands on what's rightfully mine? I will seek some professional advice on this but would love to hear from YOU :mellow:

Hey there buddy.

Yes same thing happened to me. After 5 weeks on ACC from a motorbike crash I recieved a voice message on my cell phone. It was my boss telling me that they had "disestablished" my role due to not being able to work as a result of my injuries. I had been with the company 8 years, 5 of which were full time.

It depends how they work it. They can not fire you. But they can disestablish your role. Have a chat to yoru case manager at ACC as they will provide you with the legal requirements the your employer needs to follow.

I know exactly where you are at mate and I can tell you it absolutely sucks big time! Wishing you all the best finding out your options.

[Ocean1]

It depepends how they work it. They can not fire you. But they can disestablish your role.

They can do that. They don't even have to commercially justify it.

But dog help 'em if they have anyone else doing a substantially similar role any time soon thereafter.

[Katiepie]

They can do that. They don't even have to commercially justify it.

But dog help 'em if they have anyone else doing a substantially similar role any time soon thereafter.

Exactly. I got replaced with another full time staff member doing the same rolde but with a different title. I didn't have the energy or smarts to fight it at the time, and didn't document things along the way for later on so they got away with it.

My advice to you is document what you can as if they are in the wrong you will need all the facts right at your fingertips. I didn't even get 2 weeks payout, my disestablishment was instant. They also never piad my 5 weeks annual leave that I had owning. All of that was my fault for not fighting it. But I was only just getting through one day at a time and didn't have many I could ask for this kind of help.

If they are saying they are firing you because of injury - then boy you better get fighting fit mentally to win your case and nail their arses! But if they have disestablished your role, this is the gray area and they can actually do this. As mentioned, ACC have all the info on how long a job is the be held open for etc... and will help you figure out of they have just screwed you and gotten away with it, or they are the ones about to be screwed. Don't leave it too late like I did.

[jasonu]

Did ACC and your employer accept and agree you back injury happened at work? If they did you have been entitled to 80% of your wages ( averages and percentages apply) from the day you were unable to work. Your boss pays the first week, ACC from then on in. ACC will encourage and support (read PUSH) you back to work. You cant be sacked for being injured, you cant. If you have been sacked inside a month, you have a really good case against your employer, that is ridiculous!

I reckon there is a whole lot more to this story than what you are sharing. Let us have the full story, there are plenty of us that have had time off on paid ACC, for weeks, and have kept our jobs.

Your holiday pay will only be an issue if you accept it. If you get paid it out, then you are going to be docked your ACC money. No double dipping FFS!

That is how I remember it. I also agree that there is more to the story than you have shared.

[oneblackflag]

That is how I remember it. I also agree that there is more to the story than you have shared.

There really is no more to the story... They are just worried if I come back to work then at some stage in the future I will do my back in again.

[oneblackflag]

Hey there buddy.

Yes same thing happened to me. After 5 weeks on ACC from a motorbike crash I recieved a voice message on my cell phone. It was my boss telling me that they had "disestablished" my role due to not being able to work as a result of my injuries. I had been with the company 8 years, 5 of which were full time.

It depends how they work it. They can not fire you. But they can disestablish your role. Have a chat to yoru case manager at ACC as they will provide you with the legal requirements the your employer needs to follow.

I know exactly where you are at mate and I can tell you it absolutely sucks big time! Wishing you all the best finding out your options.

Thanks for that. They haven't disestablished my role, just terminated it on medical grounds. I have got in touch with the employment relations center about it to see if I have a case, when my ACC case manager is back from his holiday I'll see what he thinks too.

[hayd3n]

There really is no more to the story... They are just worried if I come back to work then at some stage in the future I will do my back in again.

then they could put that in your new contract???

[Road kill]

The reason the boss sacked me is that it may be a long time till I even get an operation, then there is recovery time on that...

Mate,fall on the ground an start screaming .

Get your Mrs to ring a wambulance to take you to hospital.

Keep screaming.

Have cat scan.

Scream some more,refuse to shit.

Get the good drugs.

Quitely Moan until they cut you open,,,then watch sky.

Any waiting that doesn't involve screaming will get you fuck all, or on the waiting list which is the same thing.

Tears help.

Chur,,,enjoy your stay in NZ.

[Smifffy]

They can do that. They don't even have to commercially justify it.

But dog help 'em if they have anyone else doing a substantially similar role any time soon thereafter.

I would have thought that a reasonable employer would not need to fill the role with a temp, leave the position vacant during the recovery stage, and then show that the role can be safely disestablished once the incumbent is fit.

I'd also suggest that if the ERA find in favour of the employee that there are grounds for considerable payment for stress/humiliation into the deal.

[oneblackflag]

I'm really not wanting to screw over my boss.... it has been a good job and I really don't want the reputation of someone that takes employers to court. I'm just wound up about it because IMHO I have been a good employee and I can't understand why they would want to dismiss me and go through the hassle of training someone else for the role... they could easily hire some toss pot that is gonna do a shit job and screw them over any chance they get... I think there is more at play on their end, some ulterior motive that I'm being blind sided by.

[Berries]

I'm really not wanting to screw over my boss.... it has been a good job and I really don't want the reputation of someone that takes employers to court. I'm just wound up about it because IMHO I have been a good employee and I can't understand why they would want to dismiss me and go through the hassle of training someone else for the role...
I think you answered that in an earlier post -


There really is no more to the story... They are just worried if I come back to work then at some stage in the future I will do my back in again.
Wouldn't you be worried? Sounds harsh, but perhaps it is not the job for you if you have an injury that is likely to come back if you stay in the same line of work? You'd have to be pretty special for me to want to keep you on.

[oneblackflag]

I think you answered that in an earlier post -


Wouldn't you be worried? Sounds harsh, but perhaps it is not the job for you if you have an injury that is likely to come back if you stay in the same line of work? You'd have to be pretty special for me to want to keep you on.

Thing is... We dont even know the prognosis yet, still waiting on scan results.... I didn't say it was likely to come back... I just think thats one of my employers fears.... Personaly i doubt it will be an ongoing issue once its sorted. That said its totally unknown at this stage untill those results come back... I think he should have waited for the results before sacking me and from what I've read he HAD to wait for the results... He's jumped the gun...

[oneblackflag]

To anyone interested in the outcome:

I got some employment advice, challenged the dismissal due to unfair process. My employer then admitted they were in the wrong and have kept me on. Just had an epidural today :doctor: which fingers crossed will solve it in 3 weeks without the need for surgery, if not and I do need surgery, I have agreed they can terminate my contract, since I'll likely be off work for many months more.

I could have taken a PG case against them but I thought it was a bit harsh, because both parties would rather I was just able to return to work. Keeping things amicable and all that :grouphug:.

[Ocean1]

To anyone interested in the outcome:

I got some employment advice, challenged the dismissal due to unfair process. My employer then admitted they were in the wrong and have kept me on. Just had an epidural today :doctor: which fingers crossed will solve it in 3 weeks without the need for surgery, if not and I do need surgery, I have agreed they can terminate my contract, since I'll likely be off work for many months more.

I could have taken a PG case against them but I thought it was a bit harsh, because both parties would rather I was just able to return to work. Keeping things amicable and all that :grouphug:.

Nice work.

And good luck.

[Mom]

To anyone interested in the outcome:

I got some employment advice, challenged the dismissal due to unfair process. My employer then admitted they were in the wrong and have kept me on. Just had an epidural today :doctor: which fingers crossed will solve it in 3 weeks without the need for surgery, if not and I do need surgery, I have agreed they can terminate my contract, since I'll likely be off work for many months more.

I could have taken a PG case against them but I thought it was a bit harsh, because both parties would rather I was just able to return to work. Keeping things amicable and all that :grouphug:.

Congratulations on a great outcome and good on you for taking some serious employment advice, you were getting shafted, they needed to re-think. I hope you have a full and uncomplicated recovery and return to work. Most importantly, thank you for letting us know how you got on.

[oneblackflag]

Congratulations on a great outcome and good on you for taking some serious employment advice, you were getting shafted, they needed to re-think. I hope you have a full and uncomplicated recovery and return to work. Most importantly, thank you for letting us know how you got on.


Thanks to everyone for their input. Felt I should update... Pretty annoying when the OP disappears...

[Robert Taylor]

Contact your boss. Contact a relevant union. Contact Mobie (old DOL). If you got injured at work, then the DOL point of view is that work injured you. ACC won't give much of a shit if you got sacked, but Mobie may very well, and if work is in any way culpable, so will the district court judge hearing any case that mobie might bring. You'd be eligible for reparations. Also a good case for a PG for unjustified dismissal, although an ER ajudicator will consider whether your own actions contributed.

Fuck your boss. Obviously a cunt.

Hey there is ALWAYS a second side to every story. One relevant point here, is this a LARGE business that can weather staff issues with relatively little impact on their bottom line? Or is it a very small company where such a staff issue will basically cripple them?

[Edbear]

To anyone interested in the outcome:

I got some employment advice, challenged the dismissal due to unfair process. My employer then admitted they were in the wrong and have kept me on. Just had an epidural today :doctor: which fingers crossed will solve it in 3 weeks without the need for surgery, if not and I do need surgery, I have agreed they can terminate my contract, since I'll likely be off work for many months more.

I could have taken a PG case against them but I thought it was a bit harsh, because both parties would rather I was just able to return to work. Keeping things amicable and all that :grouphug:.

Goodonyermate! :first:

[geoffc]

Don't know if you went to Community Law but the free legal advice they give can save a huge amount of time & stress.

[oneblackflag]

Don't know if you went to Community Law but the free legal advice they give can save a huge amount of time & stress.

As it turned out friends of my parents had a daughter who's an employment something or rather... one email from her got the job done. The free service from the employment relations service... well they never even got back to me..

[Skiwi]

Been off work now for over a month due to a back injury that happened at work (probably need surgery... still waiting on results of scans). Boss has now terminated my employment because I can't work (sustained injury from working for him :tugger:). ACC.... now tells me that my unused annual leave (about 4-5 weeks worth) will offset my ACC payments :mad: so in effect they basicly pinch my leave payment... this seems horribly unfair to me, I get swindled out of my money whereas someone who didn't have any annual leave owing would just keep receiving ACC...:weird::violin::violin::violin::violin:

Anyone else had this happen to them? Or anyone know how to avoid them getting their dirty hands on what's rightfully mine? I will seek some professional advice on this but would love to hear from YOU :mellow:

From an ACC perspective it seems about right, I would expect you to use your money before asking me for mine......

Think of it this way... Your taking a "holiday" from your job while you recuperate, then once your holidays are used up you're going to be supported by the good people of NZ until you get back on your feet

As for your employer ? :spanking: