Robert Taylor
22nd October 2013, 19:03
This can happily be moved to another thread but for now it can answer what I see as some negativity. My intention was one of POSITIVITY, a potential series in NZ building on Jakes terrific success. SUCCESS that has made it to mainstream media in NZ.
Billy, Ian, Peter etc you are all great guys that I have a lot of time for but please an open mind re my diatribe to follow;
Comments / observations etc in no particular order
1) Testing has not been carried out in secret, in fact Tony Rees didn't have any clue what this was all about until we asked him to do laps on the bike. Ok, we haven't shouted about all this from the rooftops but you wish to prove that the concept will work before proceeding too much further. The test went VERY well
2) The concept of the bike closely mimics the HUGE success of EJC. A basically stock bike with needless appendages stripped off it. Race fairings, handlebars and footpegs etc all supplied by LOCAL firms. Control tyres ( by tender possibly ) Control ECU. Race level, adjustable suspension. See next...
3) Race level suspension. The stock suspension is of course damper rod type in the front end and a sealed monotube rear shock with spring preload adjustment. Ok for the road ( these ride really nice on the road for a stock bike ) But the limitations show up very quickly on a race track with rather better tyres etc. And judging by some of the Hyosung cup bikes that I have bounced on, the suspension is ridiculously bad if left stock, but Honda have done an infinitely better job than Hyosung.
In the FRONT END we have fitted EXACTLY the same adjustable cartridges that were used as a control part in EJC. These work great with the left fork becoming a compression adjustable fork and the right fork a rebound adjustable fork, also externally adjustable preload. The great news is that the price is less than half of what pedigree level cartridges currently cost
Following on from the same theme of minimising costs as as much as possible we have been working with an emergent and well respected English suspension manufacturer and have built, dyno developed and now track tested a first iteration of an adjustable damper. Preload, compression, rebound and length adjustment. On that first test it was clear that we had struck it 95% right first off and that it was totally raceable
In EJC they exclusively use a purpose built and high specification Ohlins shock but to be frank it looked like the price was going to be an issue so we have found another way that we are delighted with. At this point we are developing a second iteration to improve the packaging
I would point out that having adjustable suspension was a concurrence of opinion from the bike distributor and myself, for reasons that I will elaborate further about below
Also I would like to point out that at this point all product costs for suspension parts and considerable development time ( and therefore cost ) have been TOTALLY MINE, with no guarantee of substantial sales to offset such costs in such a tiny ( and clearly prejudiced ) market. On top of that another suspension competitor with ( no other way of saying it ) scant regard for business ethics has tried to muscle his way into this. That's the reality of business in a now very unethical world. RISK.
4) Adjustable suspension. We are in the 21st century and those that do in time progress to upper level racebikes with multi adjustable suspension are ''in a lot better place'' if they already have a solid concept on chassis and suspension setup. REALITY. So we have a 250 class, great for developing rider skills but that's about all. No suspension adjustments and frames made of jelly. BUT, they still serve a very useful purpose. The problem is that when these riders graduate up the scale to other classes they largely have no conception of what to do to adjust the suspension. And a reminder here that in the 21st century most higher level bikes have adjustable suspension and at least some modicum of response to those very adjustments. Pro-twins is not an especially good training ground as most of these bikes still employ damper rod forks. You are allowed to fit Race Tech emulators and springs to these but that still largely a step from neandethral to pre industrial revolution. These are not good race bikes and I make no apology for saying so. Its also an unkind reality that this class is very stagnant.
So if a guy steps up from the aforementioned 250 class to 600cc sports production the range of suspension and geometry adjustment options is a VERTICAL learning curve, on top of everything else and the HUGE power difference. There needs to be a very plausible stepping stone class where such skills can be learned in a less intimidating environment.
Indeed, as a totally relevant aside I firmly believe one of the reasons that our national hero Jake won EJC is because of the setup skills he had already learned here in NZ
5) So, my mindset ( and very much not only mine ) is that chassis and suspension setup skills are something that should be introduced to aspiring riders ( that word ASPIRATION ) AS EARLY AS POSSIBLE. 125 class is positive in that respect and class stalwarts such as Steve Bagshaw have done great work in that respect. But its a reality that not everyone will progress through 125s and in any event for many people the jump to a bigger class can be too big.
6) If establishment of such a class concept happened the idea would be to add some real value. A top road racer would run rider training assist / advice at such events and as the suspension supplier I would be on hand to provide setup training seminars. It must also be pointed out that all of the suspension units would have to be identical internally and DYNO VERIFIED/ SEALED . Changes allowed would be spring rates, oil level and external clicker settings. So as not to disadvantage very light or heavy riders such as is a dismal failing of classes such as the Hyosung cup.
It may not have escaped everyone that the CBR500RR is currently the biggest selling road bike in NZ and Honda have sold truckloads of them. For some reason this model has very much ''hit the spot'' and it is only natural that riders will want to take them to the track, which of course they can do already. Part of that success story has also been the very affordable price, and with what is proposed above to get one race ready will still be highly affordable, running costs will be low and you wont be throwing tyres at them every 5 minutes.
Perhaps Billy ( with all due respect ) and others have a narrow focus that racebikes should be at ''Warehouse'' prices / no frills. But are we scaring away a sizable number of people that have the means to spend just a little more for something that is eminently more suitable to ride on the track. There are people that spend a LOT more on dirtbikes and trackday bikes than say up to 15k for a purpose built race class bike with quality adjustable gear on it.
Just my observation and open to argument but it appears that the VMCC winter series this year has really struggled to get the numbers as in years past. You go to these meetings, its the same old faces and same old prejudices, not a happy sight. Is something wrong? Sure there certainly is....
The reality is that a LOT of people are talking about this concept including many dealers themselves, and that is RARE. As I eluded to with my mischievously disparaging remarks about MX riders ( ''puddle jumpers'' ) such a class has the ability to make such riders ''cross over''. Ably assisted by enthusiasm at dealer level
For all of the above reasons ( and doubtless more that I have failed to articulate) I don't think such a concept ( IF INDEED IT CAN BRING SIZABLE NUMBERS INTO THE SPORT ) shouldn't be so resignedly passed over.
Billy, Ian, Peter etc you are all great guys that I have a lot of time for but please an open mind re my diatribe to follow;
Comments / observations etc in no particular order
1) Testing has not been carried out in secret, in fact Tony Rees didn't have any clue what this was all about until we asked him to do laps on the bike. Ok, we haven't shouted about all this from the rooftops but you wish to prove that the concept will work before proceeding too much further. The test went VERY well
2) The concept of the bike closely mimics the HUGE success of EJC. A basically stock bike with needless appendages stripped off it. Race fairings, handlebars and footpegs etc all supplied by LOCAL firms. Control tyres ( by tender possibly ) Control ECU. Race level, adjustable suspension. See next...
3) Race level suspension. The stock suspension is of course damper rod type in the front end and a sealed monotube rear shock with spring preload adjustment. Ok for the road ( these ride really nice on the road for a stock bike ) But the limitations show up very quickly on a race track with rather better tyres etc. And judging by some of the Hyosung cup bikes that I have bounced on, the suspension is ridiculously bad if left stock, but Honda have done an infinitely better job than Hyosung.
In the FRONT END we have fitted EXACTLY the same adjustable cartridges that were used as a control part in EJC. These work great with the left fork becoming a compression adjustable fork and the right fork a rebound adjustable fork, also externally adjustable preload. The great news is that the price is less than half of what pedigree level cartridges currently cost
Following on from the same theme of minimising costs as as much as possible we have been working with an emergent and well respected English suspension manufacturer and have built, dyno developed and now track tested a first iteration of an adjustable damper. Preload, compression, rebound and length adjustment. On that first test it was clear that we had struck it 95% right first off and that it was totally raceable
In EJC they exclusively use a purpose built and high specification Ohlins shock but to be frank it looked like the price was going to be an issue so we have found another way that we are delighted with. At this point we are developing a second iteration to improve the packaging
I would point out that having adjustable suspension was a concurrence of opinion from the bike distributor and myself, for reasons that I will elaborate further about below
Also I would like to point out that at this point all product costs for suspension parts and considerable development time ( and therefore cost ) have been TOTALLY MINE, with no guarantee of substantial sales to offset such costs in such a tiny ( and clearly prejudiced ) market. On top of that another suspension competitor with ( no other way of saying it ) scant regard for business ethics has tried to muscle his way into this. That's the reality of business in a now very unethical world. RISK.
4) Adjustable suspension. We are in the 21st century and those that do in time progress to upper level racebikes with multi adjustable suspension are ''in a lot better place'' if they already have a solid concept on chassis and suspension setup. REALITY. So we have a 250 class, great for developing rider skills but that's about all. No suspension adjustments and frames made of jelly. BUT, they still serve a very useful purpose. The problem is that when these riders graduate up the scale to other classes they largely have no conception of what to do to adjust the suspension. And a reminder here that in the 21st century most higher level bikes have adjustable suspension and at least some modicum of response to those very adjustments. Pro-twins is not an especially good training ground as most of these bikes still employ damper rod forks. You are allowed to fit Race Tech emulators and springs to these but that still largely a step from neandethral to pre industrial revolution. These are not good race bikes and I make no apology for saying so. Its also an unkind reality that this class is very stagnant.
So if a guy steps up from the aforementioned 250 class to 600cc sports production the range of suspension and geometry adjustment options is a VERTICAL learning curve, on top of everything else and the HUGE power difference. There needs to be a very plausible stepping stone class where such skills can be learned in a less intimidating environment.
Indeed, as a totally relevant aside I firmly believe one of the reasons that our national hero Jake won EJC is because of the setup skills he had already learned here in NZ
5) So, my mindset ( and very much not only mine ) is that chassis and suspension setup skills are something that should be introduced to aspiring riders ( that word ASPIRATION ) AS EARLY AS POSSIBLE. 125 class is positive in that respect and class stalwarts such as Steve Bagshaw have done great work in that respect. But its a reality that not everyone will progress through 125s and in any event for many people the jump to a bigger class can be too big.
6) If establishment of such a class concept happened the idea would be to add some real value. A top road racer would run rider training assist / advice at such events and as the suspension supplier I would be on hand to provide setup training seminars. It must also be pointed out that all of the suspension units would have to be identical internally and DYNO VERIFIED/ SEALED . Changes allowed would be spring rates, oil level and external clicker settings. So as not to disadvantage very light or heavy riders such as is a dismal failing of classes such as the Hyosung cup.
It may not have escaped everyone that the CBR500RR is currently the biggest selling road bike in NZ and Honda have sold truckloads of them. For some reason this model has very much ''hit the spot'' and it is only natural that riders will want to take them to the track, which of course they can do already. Part of that success story has also been the very affordable price, and with what is proposed above to get one race ready will still be highly affordable, running costs will be low and you wont be throwing tyres at them every 5 minutes.
Perhaps Billy ( with all due respect ) and others have a narrow focus that racebikes should be at ''Warehouse'' prices / no frills. But are we scaring away a sizable number of people that have the means to spend just a little more for something that is eminently more suitable to ride on the track. There are people that spend a LOT more on dirtbikes and trackday bikes than say up to 15k for a purpose built race class bike with quality adjustable gear on it.
Just my observation and open to argument but it appears that the VMCC winter series this year has really struggled to get the numbers as in years past. You go to these meetings, its the same old faces and same old prejudices, not a happy sight. Is something wrong? Sure there certainly is....
The reality is that a LOT of people are talking about this concept including many dealers themselves, and that is RARE. As I eluded to with my mischievously disparaging remarks about MX riders ( ''puddle jumpers'' ) such a class has the ability to make such riders ''cross over''. Ably assisted by enthusiasm at dealer level
For all of the above reasons ( and doubtless more that I have failed to articulate) I don't think such a concept ( IF INDEED IT CAN BRING SIZABLE NUMBERS INTO THE SPORT ) shouldn't be so resignedly passed over.