The "money where my mouth is" sidecar design/build thread

[Moooools]

So my old man and I were tricked into taking a sidecar out by Henk and Rick, and as such the project to get one on track for ourselves has properly begun.
I figured given I go on about all sorts of engineering rubbish I would document my process semi-properly up here so you can all talk shit about it or something.

Firstly, the plan:

Long Chair
FXR 150 Engine
Kart Wheels
Carbon Fiber Monocoque
Live Axle rear end
5 Link front end with virtual king pin through wheel center line.

Aiming for sub 80kg to make up for the extra ballast I will be carrying to my left.



Over the weekend we found ourselves a kart rolling chassis and this morning I have been working on the geometry and layout of the front end.

You will have to use your imagination a bit as this is just a morning's work. All arms will have ball joints on each end. Each pair of arms (two top, two bottom) when extended out meet at a point. The axis that extents between these two points is the king pin, and is what the front wheel steers about. I know this will work at very low steering angles, but I am yet to work out if it will have a bad time at high steering angles as the king pin will move to some extent.
The idea behind it is to enable hub center steering without having to run arms to the hub center, which is damn near impossible to package on a 5" kart wheel. There are two arms missing from this still, one which controls the vertical motion and one which controls the steering.

The brake rotor is the item off of the kart, as will be the caliper. A part of the standard rear axle will support the whole lot and an upright will connect that to the linkage arms.

(Re reading this it isn't very clear but I am in a rush sorry.) More to follow in a couple of day's time.

[koba]

Whats the Dyno graph about?

[Henk]

Any sort of projected end date for this? Looks like a couple of years work at least.

[Moooools]

Whats the Dyno graph about?

What? Where? I cant see it.

[Moooools]

Any sort of projected end date for this? Looks like a couple of years work at least.

End of feb 2014. I am on uni holiday from now until then. Everything apart from the front end is going to be manufacture friendly, using processes that I am familiar with.
But the idea is to have it all designed first (Should be designed in 2 weeks.) and then just pump through parts as I get time. Should speed things up in the long run, as should a healthy dose of outsourcing. Might be making call to sketchy for the front upright.

Was going to go basic as but for the extra week or two it will take me to do it right and take 30kg out of it. Also the want to have the ability to take wheels on and off quickly so we can run wets. Which is a bit of extra fucking around but will be worth it when things get competitive down the line.

[seymour14]

Great to hear about another rig, go forth and multiply...:niceone:

[mr bucketracer]

me and dad are looking at doing the same , very simlier type of sidecar , seen he is to old and past sollo bikes, diffient engine

[mr bucketracer]

don't know why but can't see the pics

[Moooools]

don't know why but can't see the pics

Must be your end. I can see them fine.

[racer40]

Sounds good , another sidecar on the way, just one question. I dont think wets are allowed....

[Gazzza]

Really, you can make something that complex that quickly? It sounds like an amazing project, I would like nothing more than to see something that well thought out streaking around the track. We have a couple of bench marks to aim for, a sub 35 second lap on a rig is pretty much as quick as the current designs will go, mind you I have tinkered with ours and think I have something that will give us a slight edge and potentionally drop our time a wee bit...
Make sure to keep the progress pics up and running.
Quick count, Me and Andrew, Henk and Rick, Chris, Carl, Des, Scooter rig, Mel and Brian and Richie (?) up and running, and in the build ring Mooools, gentleman in Hamilton who was sourcing a RV rim from Carl to finish one, my RV short rig, Cully, errrrrrrr anyone else?
Might get to the point were it would be the effort for worth out of towners to come up for a full grid of chairs :)
Look forward to next years racing.

[Henk]

Not coming on the Saturday of the two hour for the sidecar endurance race Brenton?

[Moooools]

Really, you can make something that complex that quickly?

Yeah it is all bout project management... at least I hope so. Pretty simple systems compared to the stuff that goes on the racecar. The front end is pushing it but it should be alright.

[Moooools]

Sounds good , another sidecar on the way, just one question. I dont think wets are allowed....

Well the rules seem to think otherwise. Actually when I say that I mean the rules don't say anything. haha
Perhaps it is a local/club rule? Dunno really. Anyone else have insight?

[Henk]

Chris is keen on nobody running wets to keep things even and limit the arms race. We've all stood by it to now but the rules don't say anything about them, sliding around on slicks in the wet is that much fun I'd be keen to keep things the way they are.

[Moooools]

A bit of a slow day sorry but it is moving along. Excuse some of the dodgy CAD work. Some things I just can't be arsed making pretty.
I have been working hard on the front end still. The upright is in a mark one state and and ready to be mechanised to make sure it works (at least on the screen).

I have spent a lot of time messing around with the setup of the assembly so that any time I want to change a parameter, such as changing the length of the suspension links, I can do so and everything will fall into place (mostly). It saves heaps of time in the long run so is well worth the initial time investment. A picture of the multitude of planes and axis that govern the front end geometry is included for interest.

Getting the pull rod (the arm at the front on the biggest angle) to work as it should also took up some time. I was originally going to take it to the center but it would have caused big issues under anything more than a slight steering angle. So it has bee relocate to the front where it will be affected much less by steering angles.

The upright is in a pretty early stage still. The aim is to have something that can easily be pumped out on a mill in one set up. Hopefully CNCd but will probably end up simplifying it some more and doing it myself on a manual mill. The big forces there are coming from the bearing blocks (standard kart item) so the X shape should feed those out to the control arms nicely. The brake is placed on the rear as it allows the moment generated by it to be taken by the weight force of the rig first, before any load is put on the control arms. The caliper mounts are a bit dicky but they will work. I may end up getting a narrower caliper if this setup doesn't work, as this big thing pushes that wheel way out. Camber adjustment is achieved by moving the bearing blocks up and down on the inside and outside of the upright. The Kart bearing blocks have allowances for a huge amount of misalignment.

The steering control arm is the one you can see going directly rearwards. It will just be connected to a big arm welded to a set of handlebars.

I have include a very very rough monocoque geometry. just to paint a picture. It is currently ugly as sin and poorly thought out but fixing that is another day's job. In fact it will just about be the last thing I do.

More to come tomorrow. Will start work on either the mechanism model of the front end or the rear wheel setup, whichever I feel like doing the most.

[Moooools]

Chris is keen on nobody running wets to keep things even and limit the arms race. We've all stood by it to now but the rules don't say anything about them, sliding around on slicks in the wet is that much fun I'd be keen to keep things the way they are.

Fair enough I guess. I would happy to stick to that until it got a bit more serious. That seems like a short/medium term measure that would be hard to enforce at a national(GP) level so I think it is still useful to have the provision there still for the day that they are allowed/needed.

[Henk]

Fair enough I guess. I would happy to stick to that until it got a bit more serious. That seems like a short/medium term measure that would be hard to enforce at a national(GP) level so I think it is still useful to have the provision there still for the day that they are allowed/needed.

At the moment I think the chances of getting six entries for a GP is unfortunately a pipe dream.
I've considered inning a wet in the dry on ours before now to see if it works. I think Chris said atone stage he had no objection to wets but if you went that way it was wet or dry.
I'll also admit that it's easy to stick with this sort of agreement while it won't make a difference, as soon as things get serious I'm sure we will be looking for any advantage we can find.

[Bert]

At the moment I think the chances of getting six entries for a GP is unfortunately a pipe dream.
I've considered inning a wet in the dry on ours before now to see if it works. I think Chris said atone stage he had no objection to wets but if you went that way it was wet or dry.
I'll also admit that it's easy to stick with this sort of agreement while it won't make a difference, as soon as things get serious I'm sure we will be looking for any advantage we can find.

Given the Auckland numbers plus the griff chair down here; gives +6 (they only have to be starters/entered).
GP might be more of a wet dream... Enjoyable at the time but a mess to clean up afterwards.:motu:


MOooools, looking great.

[mr bucketracer]

Given the Auckland numbers plus the griff chair down here; gives +6 (they only have to be starters/entered).
GP might be more of a wet dream... Enjoyable at the time but a mess to clean up afterwards.:motu:


MOooools, looking great.and i need to get this sidecar out and sorted

[Gazzza]

Hey Henk, no plans for the endurance, but gearing up for Tokoroa.
I favour the no wets, only because it levels the whole field nicely but wouldn't be adverse to any one running what they want on the day, I must admit I carry a wet rear in the boot just in case...
To be honest at the moment in the spirit of getting bums on the track us chair guys aren't subject to any real scrutineering and any home rules are just to keep it fun.

[racer40]

Yeah, Henk & Gazza are right, I know its not in the rules, I am for just keeping it fun & as cheap as poss, but then if it gets to GP level then yes. and I dont see why we cant get the numbers for a GP, but it will have to be the right date to get everyone there, ie not when other bike racing is on.

[seymour14]

Just a little history lesson.

In the 1999 GP at Taupo, dry day and very close racing to the end...

2000 GP was as wet as buggery, we went out on drys and crashed at every corner, looked a certainty we would loose our title, from memory we borrowed some wets just minutes from the big race, and ended up winning, and winning well. Think we even lapped second place at least once, some people we lapped about 10 times.

Wets have their place I'm afraid to say, also a damned lot safer in the right (or wrong) conditions. For me, I just keep fingers crossed for dry weather, and the best fun you can have on three wheels...

[Pumba]

Treaded sticky road tires for the win:bleh:

[seymour14]

This reminds of title attempt 3, in 2001 I believe, at Ohakune.

Not quite enough bikes, so a gentleman's agreement to put the title up for grabs, crazy old day, and maybe we needed some tread on our bike that had otherwise been great on slicks normally.

We did some sighter laps, then ripped into a quick lap. Well, we hit the first corner and the rig let go and slid sideways across the road at full speed into the haybales, Scotty as rider was thrown off, but had his foot caught in the bike, I held on for grim death as we hit the bales, but the bike then took off back across the road dragging poor Scotty behind, foot still caught.

I tried to reach the steering from the swingers bay, but the bike hit the opposite side gutter and I dismounted and flew headfirst into a tree, bloody trees don't get out of the way, when I came to I saw Scott underneath the rig further up the sidewalk. He had slid perfectly between a lamp post and a mailbox without collecting either!!

Needless to say, that was the end of our Title holding days...We went to the pub and had a few quiet ones.

[mr bucketracer]

This reminds of title attempt 3, in 2001 I believe, at Ohakune.

Not quite enough bikes, so a gentleman's agreement to put the title up for grabs, crazy old day, and maybe we needed some tread on our bike that had otherwise been great on slicks normally.

We did some sighter laps, then ripped into a quick lap. Well, we hit the first corner and the rig let go and slid sideways across the road at full speed into the haybales, Scotty as rider was thrown off, but had his foot caught in the bike, I held on for grim death as we hit the bales, but the bike then took off back across the road dragging poor Scotty behind, foot still caught.

I tried to reach the steering from the swingers bay, but the bike hit the opposite side gutter and I dismounted and flew headfirst into a tree, bloody trees don't get out of the way, when I came to I saw Scott underneath the rig further up the sidewalk. He had slid perfectly between a lamp post and a mailbox without collecting either!!

Needless to say, that was the end of our Title holding days...We went to the pub and had a few quiet ones.and the sidecar sat in the hay shed untill last year.. maybe it should of stayed there

[seymour14]

and the sidecar sat in the hay shed untill last year.. maybe it should of stayed there


You know how much fun they were.

More memories to keep it real----Palmerston North Esplanade (when we could ride there), 1999, couple of laps in, bro decides he can't make a corner so bales to the right, unfortuneately the swinger (me), is committed to the left where we should have gone.

I disappear into the gutter and over into the bushes, while he does a fast gas up and spurts up the road. Figuring out I was no longer there a few metres along.

Also...Manfeild back track. Upon finishing a race, bro races up to the spectators, and hammers on the brakes at the last moment.

I meanwhile face plant over the front and carry on pass the crowd...

Ahhhh, the good old days, bring them on again I say......

[Sketchy_Racer]

Looks like an awesome project Mooools, I'd love to get involved in something like this one day.

If you do need anything CNC'd just let me know, I'll be more than happy to help out on this project.

Cheers,

-Sketchy

[racer40]

Hey Seymour 17, some of your crashes sound like some of mine, I raced at the Whakatane street race 3 times & went upside down 4 times, also remember street/ carpark races at Feilding, Manakau, TePuke & of course where buckets first started Ohakea, I think my first Ohakea was in 1985 & i still race tease little things now

[Henk]

Why oh why do we have no street/car park races in the north island anymore, and where can we organise one?

[seymour14]

Hey Seymour 17, some of your crashes sound like some of mine, I raced at the Whakatane street race 3 times & went upside down 4 times, also remember street/ carpark races at Feilding, Manakau, TePuke & of course where buckets first started Ohakea, I think my first Ohakea was in 1985 & i still race tease little things now

Never been under a rig but Mr Bucketracer perfected that on a test run last year.

As to Henks comment, always wondered about Foxton, as they seemed a little more relaxed about things. Ohakune may still have been viable too. Bonus is you can crash outside of a pub, and just walk straight in. (As long as your missus brings ya wallet...)

[mr bucketracer]

foxton would be a goody again , l have been talking to a guy that organize's events at foxton ,may come to nothing but you never know

[Bert]

Never been under a rig but Mr Bucketracer perfected that on a test run last year.

As to Henks comment, always wondered about Foxton, as they seemed a little more relaxed about things. Ohakune may still have been viable too. Bonus is you can crash outside of a pub, and just walk straight in. (As long as your missus brings ya wallet...)


foxton would be a goody again , l have been talking to a guy that organize's events at foxton ,may come to nothing but you never know

The issues with road events are as follows (not too much of a issue just a pain).
1. Getting the approval (requires traffic management plans, council approval, qualified STMS & likely public consultation)... But easier in a small town ESP when it has been done before...
2. Road events requires rider to have a full MNZ license (if it's a Mnz event).

[Pumba]

......2. Road events requires rider to have a full MNZ license (if it's a Mnz event).

Which would not be an issue if there were enough events that of suitable quality that warranted one purchasing said licence. Therefore, WE NEED LOTS OF STREET RACING:clap:

(or just start running black meetings. Man think we are a little off topic here)

[Henk]

I'd shell for the upgrade for a street meeting, I'm sure I'm not the only one.

[Drew]

Get full size bikes, they get four if they want them that I can think of.

[Henk]

Get full size bikes, they get four if they want them that I can think of.

That's true Drew, but they don't get to race close to home 11 times a year at $30 a throw, basically free if you are running in another class.

[Bert]

Get full size bikes, they get four if they want them that I can think of.

Your not only guy Drew that has big stuff in his shed, but this is the bucket forum....:motu:
Should have been out on old pinky/skinky this weekend at the classic/post classic 2 day meeting at minefield... Bloody work:angry2:


Sorry moools, back your thread now...

[Moooools]

Sorry moools, back your thread now...

Haha you guys can keep going. I am pretty snowed under with the race car as we are meant to launch it tomorrow night. Pretty hectic.
I have done a little more but nothing too interesting. I will give you all an update at the end of the week.

[Moooools]

Bit of an update. The timeline has gone out the window as I am down working full time for Toyota Racing for the next 6 weeks.
So the project will just progress as I get time. Still plan to get it done. May back off the scale a bit. We will see.

[Yow Ling]

Bit of an update. The timeline has gone out the window as I am down working full time for Toyota Racing for the next 6 weeks.
So the project will just progress as I get time. Still plan to get it done. May back off the scale a bit. We will see.

You poor bastard, having to work full time and everything. gets easier after 30 or so years !

[Pumba]

Working at the race track though. Not sure it is really working. So got any of those 10 inch Hoosier slicks losing around that we were talking about last time we were at the track?

[Moooools]

Working at the race track though. Not sure it is really working. So got any of those 10 inch Hoosier slicks losing around that we were talking about last time we were at the track?

Yeah shouldn't be too bad.
Ooooh I can't remember what we brought back from Aus. We bought two extra sets in Aus and I think the plan was to leave some sets over there as the carnet only specified 4 sets or something. They are all currently sitting in customs but as soon as they are back in the workshop I will let you know what we have. And if we don't have anything now we will in a couple of months after some summer testing.

[Pumba]

... as the carnet only specified 4 sets or something.

Fucking carnet. We just dealt with one of those with the boat that was shipped to Spain and back for the World Champs. Stupid thing was customs only opened the door of the container to check the boat was in there. The boys could have bought anything (or any boat) back.

[Moooools]

Fucking carnet. We just dealt with one of those with the boat that was shipped to Spain and back for the World Champs. Stupid thing was customs only opened the door of the container to check the boat was in there. The boys could have bought anything (or any boat) back.

Yeah that is the usual. Except for when we got to Aus this time, the guy rocked up at 3.00pm a day late, pulled one side off, looked at his watch and pissed off home, giving us instructions to unpack everything so he could check it all.

But even then the list is pretty vague so they really have no idea. I know there would have been more coming back if we had any space.