Pike River

[awa355]

Three years on, will they ever be bought out?

I found this clip from the Dubliners. Pike River shows that not much has changed. This is simply a tribute to the men who have died in mining disasters everywhere.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvFqVgz1AGo

[Hitcher]

Why do the bodies of the dead miners need to be brought out? Particularly if doing so places the well-being of others at risk. Their families know they're dead and where they are, just as much as they would if these blokes were interred anywhere else. Retrieving physical remains won't bring anybody back. Let it go.

[jellywrestler]

Let it go.
All the families are hanging onto pretty well false hope, some of it politically driven , let them Rest in peace where they are and let the families look into the future and spend that money on people who are in need of it.

[Road kill]

We don't leave our dead behind just so it costs less to the ruling class that caused the problem in the first place..

If it was your son or another member of your family you might think differently.

But it's somebody else's,,,so fuck em',,,,right.

Hitcher,,,I've always thought you were a cunt,,,thanks for the confirmation.

[sil3nt]

We don't leve our dead behind just so it costs less to the ruling class that caused the problem in the first place..

If it was your son or another member of your family you might think differently.

But it's somebody else's,,,so fuck em',,,,right.

Hitcher,,,I've always thought you were a cunt,,,thanks for the confirmation.So we should spend a shit load of money to take some bodies (bones by now) out of the ground so they can be put back in the ground?

[Road kill]

So we should spend a shit load of money to take some bodies (bones by now) out of the ground so they can be put back in the ground?

That's right,,,it's an old ethic that cocks like you wouldn't understand.

Put it this way,,,if you and I were in service to our county and you were in the the shit,,,people like me would give our lives to save your arse.

Not that you would put out if your arse was on fire,,,but I come from a different era when standing by your people ment more than how much it cost.

This is something I have NO ISSUE with my tax dollars being spent on.

[Mo NZ]

I'm not sure if there are any bones left down there after the fires, however if there is anything left it should be recovered, if its safe to go down.

[jellywrestler]

We don't leave our dead behind just so it costs less to the ruling class that caused the problem in the first place..

If it was your son or another member of your family you might think differently.

But it's somebody else's,,,so fuck em',,,,right.

Hitcher,,,I've always thought you were a cunt,,,thanks for the confirmation.

it's not a case of Fuck em, there's no doubt more false hope and the mostly wasted headspace into thinking we're going to get going on. the familes etc really need to set this aside and move on rather than hanging onto something that has such a remote chance of happening.

[Road kill]

it's not a case of Fuck em, there's no doubt more false hope and the mostly wasted headspace into thinking we're going to get going on. the familes etc really need to set this aside and move on rather than hanging onto something that has such a remote chance of happening.

The company dug the fucking mine when they were making money from it,,,then they killed their own people.

We pay out loser company managers with golden hands shakes,we pay out and prop up loser companies with tax payers money,,,,but we can't return the loved ones of our workers when the bosses stuff up,,,yet again.

Fuck me you cunts are willing to sell out to anybody while you turn your backs on the very people that actually do the hard yards.

Fuck you,,,you make me ashamed to call myself a Kiwi.

[jellywrestler]

The company dug the fucking mine when they were making money from it,,,then they killed their own people.

We pay out loser company managers with golden hands shakes,we pay out and prop up loser companies with tax payers money,,,,but we can't return the loved ones of our workers when the bosses stuff up,,,yet again.

Fuck me you cunts are willing to sell out to anybody while you turn your backs on the very people that actually do the hard yards.

Fuck you,,,you make me ashamed to call myself a Kiwi.

that's a whole different story and a sad one, my focus is on the wellbeing on the people left surrounding this and what sort of false hopes, hate towards the company and the government and what it's doing to their lives now. It's been time to move on and live their own lives without this hanging over their heads.
And dont get me started about fat payouts

[Zedder]

The company dug the fucking mine when they were making money from it,,,then they killed their own people.

We pay out loser company managers with golden hands shakes,we pay out and prop up loser companies with tax payers money,,,,but we can't return the loved ones of our workers when the bosses stuff up,,,yet again.

Fuck me you cunts are willing to sell out to anybody while you turn your backs on the very people that actually do the hard yards.

Fuck you,,,you make me ashamed to call myself a Kiwi.

And yet you were on here boasting about all the tobacco you were selling etc. How do you work out the ethics on that then?

[sil3nt]

That's right,,,it's an old ethic that cocks like you wouldn't understand.

Put it this way,,,if you and I were in service to our county and you were in the the shit,,,people like me would give our lives to save your arse.

Not that you would put out if your arse was on fire,,,but I come from a different era when standing by your people ment more than how much it cost.

This is something I have NO ISSUE with my tax dollars being spent on.Wtf are you even talking about? Are you drunk?

[Road kill]

BTW,did any of you self centered arseholes know that the bodies could of been recovered by now if the NZ pigs that really work for the man hadn't been in charge.

Plus the gutless cunts actually employed a private security company to protect themselves from the familys of those lost.

The head of that company is a personal friend of mine and his opinion of the NZ pigs took a major hit once he witnessed the gutless pricks in action.

You want to talk cost,,,,the pigs paid out thousands to protect themselves from the NZ citizens they were threating with arrest for coming anywhere near that fucking mine.

The lot of you make me want to chuck lumps.

Now wait for scumbag to come along an tell us how he personally saved a cat from a tree.
Should make all you "money" cunts feel all warm an cozy.

[Zedder]

BTW,did any of you self centered arseholes know that the bodies could of been recovered by now if the NZ pigs that really work for the man hadn't been in charge.

Plus the gutless cunts actually employed a private security company to protect themselves from the familys of those lost.

The head of that company is a personal friend of mine and his opinion of the NZ pigs took a major hit once he witnessed the gutless pricks in action.

You want to talk cost,,,,the pigs paid out thousands to protect themselves from the NZ citizens they were threating with arrest for coming anywhere near that fucking mine.

The lot of you make me want to chuck lumps.

Now wait for scumbag to come along an tell us how he personally saved a cat from a tree.
Should make all you "money" cunts feel all warm an cozy.

Get the massive chip off your shoulder about the cops.

What about the fact that NZ Oil and Gas (the major shareholder in Pike River Coal) voted against paying the NZ$3.4 million reparation to the victims' families?

[Kickaha]

but we can't return the loved ones of our workers when the bosses stuff up,,,yet again.

No blame attached to the guys who went and worked there on a daily basis? it was everyone who worked at that site responsibilty to make it safe not just "the bosses"

[Maha]

So we should spend a shit load of money to take some bodies (bones by now) out of the ground so they can be put back in the ground?

What it cost, has nothing at all to do with it, the reason they (the bodies) are still in the mine, is because it is ''still unsafe to re enter the mine''. If I had a family member in the Pike River mine, I would want that person on the surface for a proper burial, not a burial created by an explosion due to negligence.

[Winston001]

What about the fact that NZ Oil and Gas (the major shareholder in Pike River Coal) voted against paying the NZ$3.4 million reparation to the victims' families?

A fair question. Here's a few facts.

NZ Oil and Gas only owned 28% of Pike River Coal. The rest was owned by mum and dad shareholders and a few investment funds. In fact I think ACC was one.

The owners of Pike (including NZOG) lost about $150 million. Gone. That is a helleva hit for anybody. And Judge Farish really believes these shareholders should come up with another $3.5 million to throw away?

NZOG advanced $25 million to Pike after the explosion so Pike could continue to pay wages and rescue services. NZOG knew that money was going into a black hole never to be seen again.

So substantially more than $3.5 million has been paid and the miners families have benefited from that. Additionally they are entitled to ACC payments. On top of that the NZ public donated a huge amount of money to support the families and the local community.

And they want more?

[Road kill]

And yet you were on here boasting about all the tobacco you were selling etc. How do you work out the ethics on that then?

Don't give a fuck,I smoke an so do the people I save shit loads of money by selling it to.

All I really do is take the proffit from the gov't.

Haven't you noticed that the tax goes up the more that people kick it.

Pity the last smoker aye,the two faced gov't will still be bleeding the poor cunt to keep their own profits up while wanking on about how much it costs you ya' dumb fuck..

[SMOKEU]

Fuck bro, calm down.

[Oscar]

We don't leave our dead behind just so it costs less to the ruling class that caused the problem in the first place..

If it was your son or another member of your family you might think differently.

But it's somebody else's,,,so fuck em',,,,right.

Hitcher,,,I've always thought you were a cunt,,,thanks for the confirmation.

Notwithstanding the fact that there is probably little or nothing to recover, why put people in danger to do the job?
I was going to ask you if you'd volunteer, but your post proves that you're stupid enough to say you would.

[Hitcher]

Fuck bro, calm down.

Spoil sport. I'm waiting for a cogent argument, rather than lots of vitriolic expletives and ad hominem abuse.

[Zedder]

A fair question. Here's a few facts.

NZ Oil and Gas only owned 28% of Pike River Coal. The rest was owned by mum and dad shareholders and a few investment funds. In fact I think ACC was one.

The owners of Pike (including NZOG) lost about $150 million. Gone. That is a helleva hit for anybody. And Judge Farish really believes these shareholders should come up with another $3.5 million to throw away?

NZOG advanced $25 million to Pike after the explosion so Pike could continue to pay wages and rescue services. NZOG knew that money was going into a black hole never to be seen again.

So substantially more than $3.5 million has been paid and the miners families have benefited from that. Additionally they are entitled to ACC payments. On top of that the NZ public donated a huge amount of money to support the families and the local community.

And they want more?

Some facts for you then; NZOG were the largest secured shareholder in the mine before the disaster. They have NZ$160 million in cash reserves to date and have increased profit by 30% this year.

And, the families didn't want more, the Judge ordered the reparations after taking everything into account.

[Oscar]

Serious question - what does an coal miner get paid?

[Zedder]

Don't give a fuck,I smoke an so do the people I save shit loads of money by selling it to.

All I really do is take the proffit from the gov't.

Haven't you noticed that the tax goes up the more that people kick it.

Pity the last smoker aye,the two faced gov't will still be bleeding the poor cunt to keep their own profits up while wanking on about how much it costs you ya' dumb fuck..

So, selling tobacco which you know does harm, but "fuck the bosses" of Pike River Coal etc. Hypocritical much?

[Hitcher]

Serious question - what does an coal miner get paid?

The answer is "quite well". Indeed, compared with other income streams on the West Coast, very well.

[SMOKEU]

The answer is "quite well". Indeed, compared with other income streams on the West Coast, very well.

You obviously haven't grown a good crop there yet.

[mashman]

Notwithstanding the fact that there is probably little or nothing to recover, why put people in danger to do the job?
I was going to ask you if you'd volunteer, but your post proves that you're stupid enough to say you would.


Spoil sport. I'm waiting for a cogent argument, rather than lots of vitriolic expletives and ad hominem abuse.

Because this is possible. (http://www.mnh.si.edu/exhibits/against-all-odds/). There are potentially bodies in a mine somewhere and some people would like them back if they are. Why not practice getting miners out of those situations, which will hopefully never happen, and at the same time, settle the wishes of the family's?

[Oscar]

Because this is possible. (http://www.mnh.si.edu/exhibits/against-all-odds/). There are potentially bodies in a mine somewhere and some people would like them back if they are. Why not practice getting miners out of those situations, which will hopefully never happen, and at the same time, settle the wishes of the family's?

33 live miners are worth the risk.

[awa355]

This post was started as a way of remembering our men at Pike River, ( and others ) who have lost their lives in a dangerous occupation.

Not as a tool for abusing the opinions of others.

I had an ancestor who survived the mustard gas in the trenches, only to sucumb to an English mining related death, in the 20's. hence, the video clip.

[JimO]

Don't give a fuck,I smoke an so do the people I save shit loads of money by selling it to.

All I really do is take the proffit from the gov't.

Haven't you noticed that the tax goes up the more that people kick it.

Pity the last smoker aye,the two faced gov't will still be bleeding the poor cunt to keep their own profits up while wanking on about how much it costs you ya' dumb fuck..

is it benefit day already, cut back on the woodstocks

[Road kill]

Get the massive chip off your shoulder about the cops.

What about the fact that NZ Oil and Gas (the major shareholder in Pike River Coal) voted against paying the NZ$3.4 million reparation to the victims' families?

Nah can't do that.
Issuing traffic tickets and attacking peacefull protesters aside It takes a lot more than always being there with well practiced answers after the fact to impress me.
Sorry about that.

But then again,,,,I do often wonder if people like you ever read NZ's history and the place the pigs have played in keeping the common working man down.

Or honestly,,,,do you just not fucking care ?



And 3,5 MILLION,,,,Yeah those parasites do need to hang their heads.

[JimO]

But then again,,,,I do often wonder if people like you ever read NZ's history and the place the pigs have played in keeping the common working man down.




yea them pigs eh, oppressing the common working man

[Road kill]

Notwithstanding the fact that there is probably little or nothing to recover, why put people in danger to do the job?
I was going to ask you if you'd volunteer, but your post proves that you're stupid enough to say you would.

Good choice.

[Road kill]

Spoil sport. I'm waiting for a cogent argument, rather than lots of vitriolic expletives and ad hominem abuse.

Just put me on your ignore list.

I won't miss you either.

[mashman]

33 live miners are worth the risk.

Are you saying that training in such an area is unrequired?

[pete376403]

conspiracy theory of sorts. What if the recovery DID go ahead, and the remain of bodies were found in a location that would have or even might have been accessible if the mine had been entered straight after the initial explosion. The police (who apparently know everything about mine rescues) blocked access*, even though there were miners (who apparently know nothing about mining rescues) ready and willing to go in.


Would not be a good look for the police.

*on the basis that it might blow up again. It did, but it took five days for enough gas to build up.

[Maha]

Spoil sport. I'm waiting for a cogent argument, rather than lots of vitriolic expletives and ad hominem abuse.

Is this cogent enough for you ...''I would want my family member on the surface for a proper burial, not a burial created by an explosion due to negligence''.

If your Ukulele was dropped down a huge whole in the ground, to what lengths would you go to, to retrieve it? keep in mind it's a piece of wood with four strings attached.

[BoristheBiter]

conspiracy theory of sorts. What if the recovery DID go ahead, and the remain of bodies were found in a location that would have or even might have been accessible if the mine had been entered straight after the initial explosion. The police (who apparently know everything about mine rescues) blocked access*, even though there were miners (who apparently know nothing about mining rescues) ready and willing to go in.


Would not be a good look for the police.

*on the basis that it might blow up again. It did, but it took five days for enough gas to build up.

And what would've the public said if they went into the mine and it blew with them in there?

They knew it was going to blow again and where proved to be right.

The police will always be against double standards with thing's like this.

And it was never SAR, it was always body recovery.

[Blackbird]

But then again,,,,I do often wonder if people like you ever read NZ's history and the place the pigs have played in keeping the common working man down.
.

Christ Almighty - I suppose what you really mean by this meaningless phrase over-used by Labour politicians is "the blue collar worker just looking to earn a decent wage whilst being continually screwed by the bosses". If you simply mean a decent, hard- working person who just wants to get by and enjoy life with no hassles, you'll find them in white collar professions as well as blue collar ones. Just as you'll find complete shits who make little or no contribution to society irrespective of their so-called social status. That's life, I'm afraid.

[jellywrestler]

Is this cogent enough for you ...''I would want my family member on the surface for a proper burial, not a burial created by an explosion due to negligence''.

If your Ukulele was dropped down a huge whole in the ground, to what lengths would you go to, to retrieve it? keep in mind it's a piece of wood with four strings attached.

shit that must be hard to play when you've only got three fingers.

[Flip]

conspiracy theory of sorts. What if the recovery DID go ahead, and the remain of bodies were found in a location that would have or even might have been accessible if the mine had been entered straight after the initial explosion. The police (who apparently know everything about mine rescues) blocked access*, even though there were miners (who apparently know nothing about mining rescues) ready and willing to go in.


Would not be a good look for the police.

*on the basis that it might blow up again. It did, but it took five days for enough gas to build up.

I concur. The opportunity to enter the mine and recover any meaningfull remains has been lost. Whats left is burried under half a mountain of rock, ash and half burnt coal.

[oldrider]

If safety was so bad at that mine ... why wasn't the local safety officer castigated for his incompetence? :confused:

[Paul in NZ]

Well actually I do read shit loads of history and from the reading I do I think that there is often blame in these cases on both sides AND its largely pointless basing todays actions on incidents that happened too long ago. Things actually do change... For instance - you have an old Triumph? Well while BSA was stuffed in 1973 there was a real chance Triumph could have staggered on as the order books were full and they had just launched the T140, negotiated 300 needed redundancies and were on track to make a profit. They would not have needed the whole sorry NVT deal until the shop stewards decided otherwise and suddenly they were stuffed. Please don't bang on about the co-op as it was only ever a hand to mouth stop gap thing without Hopwood and Hele's new designs....

As for never leaving our people behind? Yeah right... Sometimes theres not enough bits of 'your people' left in one place to pick up and carry out. Its a great battle cry to stiffen the spine and instill pride that very often does not work out quite so well in practise. Like all battle cries it is of course a tool to trick the working man into doing something risky for pride (ie the boss won't need to pay you) and I'm deeply suspicious of them. War cemetaries are full of people (or bits of them) that were left behind or blown in front...

I was actually involved in and still strongly believe in trade unions except like all organisations they tend to get taken over by 'organisers' who end up being exactly the sorts of pricks they are encouraging you to fight against. I ended up in no mans land all by myself once to often to take it seriously...

Yes - miners understood that there was a golden hour after the first explosion to risk a quick re entry and the Police didn't. There was the very real possibility that there was a large underground fire still burning and that it wouls have been a suicide mission. The Police cannot allow that to happen.

There has been a lot of discussion on this issue of late. Lots of interviews with those left behind. OF COURSE they would rather have those men out... Just like my nan would have loved her boy back from france... Yes - its simple to think some giant corporate should have paid the 'compo' but there is doubt that the money was there. Its never actually that simple...

Its a mine and there is nothing simple about a hole in the ground... Unless its an open cast mine of course but....

[Banditbandit]

The company dug the fucking mine when they were making money from it,,,then they killed their own people.

No - the company was not making money - yet . they expected to make millions - but once again the Brunner Seam beat them to it and it blew up - happened at the Brunner Mine, at Strongman - all the mines in that seam have blown up ...


We pay out loser company managers with golden hands shakes,we pay out and prop up loser companies with tax payers money,,,,but we can't return the loved ones of our workers when the bosses stuff up,,,yet again.

Fuck me you cunts are willing to sell out to anybody while you turn your backs on the very people that actually do the hard yards.

Fuck you,,,you make me ashamed to call myself a Kiwi.

While returning the bodies may be an ideal it is not always possible. As far as I am aweare there were at least two bodies never recoved from Strongman .. and the first rescuers into the Brunner Mine were later found unconscious and had to be carried out - they suffered gas poisoning .. the same could have happened at Pike - which also blew a second time .. and would have killed any rescuers in there.

There are also bodies of our servicemen who were never brought home- Europe is covered with their cemeteries .. there are bodies in the mines ... while the ideal is great and I support it., it is not always possible to bring back bodies ..

And after a mine fire how many bodies are there to find ???


But then again,,,,I do often wonder if people like you ever read NZ's history and the place the pigs have played in keeping the common working man down.

Or honestly,,,,do you just not fucking care ?



Far out - we agree on something ... Yes I know our history and the history of the police - from Massey Coassacks at Waihi, the the Wellington Waterfront dispute 1913 and the invasion of Maungapohato, to the 1951 Waterfront lockout ... the invasion of Orakei (Bastion Point to the Pākehā) . etc etc ..

The police are the armed internal enforcement agency of the state .. but fuck all in today's society would see or accept that.

You just need to look at this image ...

http://www.police.govt.nz/service/museum/images/redsquad.jpg

[Grubber]

Nah can't do that.
Issuing traffic tickets and attacking peacefull protesters aside It takes a lot more than always being there with well practiced answers after the fact to impress me.
Sorry about that.

But then again,,,,I do often wonder if people like you ever read NZ's history and the place the pigs have played in keeping the common working man down.

Or honestly,,,,do you just not fucking care ?



And 3,5 MILLION,,,,Yeah those parasites do need to hang their heads.

I've been an honest working man for the last 35 years and i never had an issue with the cops ever.
Not sure where your comin from to be fair.:rolleyes:

[Zedder]

I've been an honest working man for the last 35 years and i never had an issue with the cops ever.
Not sure where your comin from to be fair.:rolleyes:

Yeah, I think there's certain criteria needed before the cops get involved, being lawful doesn't really get them going.

The oppression thing must be something they do when things are really really quiet 'cos the rest of the time I think they're off trying to save lives and keeping honest hardworking citizens safe.

[Bald Eagle]

No -
You just need to look at this image ...

http://www.police.govt.nz/service/museum/images/redsquad.jpg

...and read the caption "Defense line" but at least that shows which side you are on.

Sent from my LG-P768 using Tapatalk

[Tazz]

This post was started as a way of remembering our men at Pike River, ( and others ) who have lost their lives in a dangerous occupation.

Not as a tool for abusing the opinions of others.

I had an ancestor who survived the mustard gas in the trenches, only to sucumb to an English mining related death, in the 20's. hence, the video clip.

I think the point has been missed again =(

Bodies recovered or not, R.I.P.

[oldrider]

Well actually I do read shit loads of history and from the reading I do I think that there is often blame in these cases on both sides AND its largely pointless basing todays actions on incidents that happened too long ago. Things actually do change... For instance - you have an old Triumph? Well while BSA was stuffed in 1973 there was a real chance Triumph could have staggered on as the order books were full and they had just launched the T140, negotiated 300 needed redundancies and were on track to make a profit. They would not have needed the whole sorry NVT deal until the shop stewards decided otherwise and suddenly they were stuffed. Please don't bang on about the co-op as it was only ever a hand to mouth stop gap thing without Hopwood and Hele's new designs....

As for never leaving our people behind? Yeah right... Sometimes theres not enough bits of 'your people' left in one place to pick up and carry out. Its a great battle cry to stiffen the spine and instill pride that very often does not work out quite so well in practise. Like all battle cries it is of course a tool to trick the working man into doing something risky for pride (ie the boss won't need to pay you) and I'm deeply suspicious of them. War cemetaries are full of people (or bits of them) that were left behind or blown in front...

I was actually involved in and still strongly believe in trade unions except like all organisations they tend to get taken over by 'organisers' who end up being exactly the sorts of pricks they are encouraging you to fight against. I ended up in no mans land all by myself once to often to take it seriously...

Yes - miners understood that there was a golden hour after the first explosion to risk a quick re entry and the Police didn't. There was the very real possibility that there was a large underground fire still burning and that it wouls have been a suicide mission. The Police cannot allow that to happen.

There has been a lot of discussion on this issue of late. Lots of interviews with those left behind. OF COURSE they would rather have those men out... Just like my nan would have loved her boy back from france... Yes - its simple to think some giant corporate should have paid the 'compo' but there is doubt that the money was there. Its never actually that simple...

Its a mine and there is nothing simple about a hole in the ground... Unless its an open cast mine of course but....

Stupid fucking greenies should think about that ... I blame them for that disaster! :wacko:

[Zedder]

I think the point has been missed again =(

Bodies recovered or not, R.I.P.

True, but after being a member since 2008 and over 1,100 posts he probably knew which way this was going to go.

[Zedder]

Stupid fucking greenies should think about that ... I blame them for that disaster! :wacko:

Ya might have to change your name to oldtroller, the gubbermint makes the rules.

[Woodman]

Stupid fucking greenies should think about that ... I blame them for that disaster! :wacko:

The criteria for mining there were put in place before they started. If it wasn't safe to so they shouldn't have started mining in a proven very volatile seam.

Anyway

RIP guys, wherever that may be.

[Oscar]

The police are the armed internal enforcement agency of the state .. but fuck all in today's society would see or accept that.

You just need to look at this image ...

http://www.police.govt.nz/service/museum/images/redsquad.jpg

I saw that from very close up, and it was as you say, at the time, an enforcement agency of the state (Muldoon actually).

However it was 32 fucking years ago.
The major problem with the Police today is incompetent investigations, not protestor bashing.

[awa355]

True, but after being a member since 2008 and over 1,100 posts he probably knew which way this was going to go.

I did:mellow:

[Banditbandit]

...and read the caption "Defense line" but at least that shows which side you are on.

Sent from my LG-P768 using Tapatalk

:rofl: True that - I carried bruises from Red Squad battons in 1981 ... and been part of the ONLY incident during the tour protest where a complain was upheld adnd police were deemed to have gone too far in their actions ...

Yes, "Defense Line" carries it's own political ideology and subjectivity ... having Red Squad charge at you waving battons certainly adds a whole new meaning to "defense" ...

The police were used by Muldoon to enforce his will - that the tour proceed - a completely overt and obvious example of the police as the armed internal enforcement arm of the state.

[Blackbird]

Whilst I was never a fan of Muldoon because of his excesses and not that I'm making excuses, the events of those days has to be seen in context. I was heavily involved with the industrial skirmishes of those days and as Paul in NZ alluded, many union leaders and prominent activists were not fairly representing the best interests of the people they purported to support. Indeed, some of them had political agendas influenced from outside NZ and the level of intimidation of their own members and others had to be seen to be believed. Unfortunately, extreme measures by one group is inevitably met in kind by the other group. As I said, I'm not condoning what happened in those days but sometimes, democracy has to be preserved by undemocratic methods. There's no simplistic answer.

[BoristheBiter]

:rofl: True that - I carfried bruises from Red Squad battons in 1981 ... and been part of the ONLY incident during the tour protest where a complain was upheld adnd police were deemed to have gone too far in their actions ...

Yes, "Defense Line" carries it's own political ideology and subjectivity ... having Red Squad charge at you waving battons certainly adds a whole new meaning to "defense" ...

The police were used by Muldoon to enforce his will - that the tour proceed - a completely overt and obvious example of the police as the armed internal enforcement arm of the state.

And so you should.
You were trying to stop, and by force, a perfectly legal game of rugby due to you feeling of an oppressive racist regime.

And so long my it be that way.

I'm so sick of fuckwits that think they have the right to stop people going about their legal business and cry when they are forced to move.

From what I can recall there were more protesters bashed by rugby fans.

[Paul in NZ]

:rofl: True that - I carfried bruises from Red Squad battons in 1981 ... and been part of the ONLY incident during the tour protest where a complain was upheld adnd police were deemed to have gone too far in their actions ...

Yes, "Defense Line" carries it's own political ideology and subjectivity ... having Red Squad charge at you waving battons certainly adds a whole new meaning to "defense" ...

The police were used by Muldoon to enforce his will - that the tour proceed - a completely overt and obvious example of the police as the armed internal enforcement arm of the state.


You should read a bit of history. This is good... despite the very valid criticisim mentioned here

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/culture/6155384/History-of-lapses

Yes there are errors BUT its very (very) interesting to read a historians version of things you have actually experienced in your lifetime.

Muldoon was actually appalled that the NZRFU went ahead with the tour and tried behind the scenes to stop it for no other reason than he realised what a shitfight it would turn into. However once it started he had to uphold the law and order line but frankly his heart wasnt in it at all... Essentially Muldoon was not a monster but a very clever and able politician with some strong points of view and sadly a serious drinking problem.... hmm - scratch that - yeah he was a bit of a monster all right... But I can't think of another PM that had the Mongrel Mob perform a Haka at his or her funeral... He definately had a bit of pure class about him...

[Banditbandit]

Of course I agree with all that - I was engaged in civil disobedience .. and as disobedience it provokes reactions from the state - actioned by the state's armed enforcement wing ... I knew that when I started ..

I had massive arguments with protest organisers who refused to recongise the consequences of disobedience ... dumb fuckers .. hearts in the rightr place but still dumb fuckers ..

And yeah - the police only hit people with lumps of wood - pro-tour rugby supporters were much worse ...

Now that the thread has been completely hijacked ... let's get back to not forgetting the workers who died in the mines so the millionaires could make even more money ...

[Bald Eagle]

Well having been on the receiving end of the civil disobedience, plywood shields used as weapins we'll agree to disagree on the "rights"of the "peaceful" protestors not to get their just deserts then.

Sent from my LG-P768 using Tapatalk

[Paul in NZ]

Interesting stuff on the news tonight. At least one intact body for sure... Def worth going in...

[oldrider]

You should read a bit of history. This is good... despite the very valid criticisim mentioned here

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/culture/6155384/History-of-lapses

Yes there are errors BUT its very (very) interesting to read a historians version of things you have actually experienced in your lifetime.

Muldoon was actually appalled that the NZRFU went ahead with the tour and tried behind the scenes to stop it for no other reason than he realised what a shitfight it would turn into. However once it started he had to uphold the law and order line but frankly his heart wasnt in it at all... Essentially Muldoon was not a monster but a very clever and able politician with some strong points of view and sadly a serious drinking problem.... hmm - scratch that - yeah he was a bit of a monster all right... But I can't think of another PM that had the Mongrel Mob perform a Haka at his or her funeral... He definately had a bit of pure class about him...

The Mongrel Mob is pure class? ........... yeah right! :confused: .. :facepalm:

[Kickaha]

The major problem with the Police today is incompetent investigations, not protestor bashing.
I'd agree, they don't bash anywhere enough protestors



Far out - we agree on something ... Yes I know our history and the history of the police - from Massey Cossacks at Waihi, the the Wellington Waterfront dispute 1913 and the invasion of Maungapohato, to the 1951 Waterfront lockout ... the invasion of Orakei (Bastion Point to the Pākehā) . etc etc ..

Don't forget Parihaka

[pete376403]

Interesting stuff on the news tonight. At least one intact body for sure... Def worth going in...

Intact after multiple explosions no less. Yet all the "experts" are saying there wouldn't have been anything left to recover after the first explosion.

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/new-pike-river-audio-photo-body-leaked-5718189

[Paul in NZ]

Intact after multiple explosions no less. Yet all the "experts" are saying there wouldn't have been anything left to recover after the first explosion.

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/new-pike-river-audio-photo-body-leaked-5718189

Yeah but according to some experts I should be dead... Either they are wrong or I'm an overly animated corpse... hang on....

[Paul in NZ]

The Mongrel Mob is pure class? ........... yeah right! :confused: .. :facepalm:

No not them but Muldoon. The point was that man definately had the ability to connect across a wide spectrum - love him or hate him you couldnt help but notice him. If there is one thing that has to be said about the guy he was decisive and larger than life and you knew where you stood with him... (or maybe it was devisive - I get those mixed up sometimes)

[oldrider]

No not them but Muldoon. The point was that man definately had the ability to connect across a wide spectrum - love him or hate him you couldnt help but notice him. If there is one thing that has to be said about the guy he was decisive and larger than life and you knew where you stood with him... (or maybe it was devisive - I get those mixed up sometimes)

Worst socialist this country has ever known, turned all the farmers into (rich) beneficiaries with his SMP (supplementary minimum price) and state controlled everything!

You couldn't fart without government permission! :brick:

National and Labour swapped ideologies over the Muldoon/Lange governments era and their voters hardly even noticed, just kept voting for the old party, didn't matter what the fuck they stood for! :wacko:

Nothing much has changed since! :oi-grr:

[Winston001]

Robert Muldoon...can't think of another PM that had the Mongrel Mob perform a Haka at his or her funeral... He definately had a bit of pure class about him...

Black Power to be accurate. They respected Muldoon and he had a warm relationship with them.

[BMWST?]

conspiracy theory of sorts. What if the recovery DID go ahead, and the remain of bodies were found in a location that would have or even might have been accessible if the mine had been entered straight after the initial explosion. The police (who apparently know everything about mine rescues) blocked access*, even though there were miners (who apparently know nothing about mining rescues) ready and willing to go in.


Would not be a good look for the police.

*on the basis that it might blow up again. It did, but it took five days for enough gas to build up.

everyone is fucking clever afterwards

[pete376403]

everyone is fucking clever afterwards

The MINERS wanted to go in right after the first explosion. Their management (in full-on arse-covering mode) would not allow it. Did you listen to the recording from the control room?

Not me being clever afterward at all - it's just what happened

[BoristheBiter]

The MINERS wanted to go in right after the first explosion. Their management (in full-on arse-covering mode) would not allow it. Did you listen to the recording from the control room?

Not me being clever afterward at all - it's just what happened

And could you imagine the fallout if they said yes go right on in and it blew up.

[pete376403]

They knew the risks - and the prevailing wisdom was that the risk of another explosion was unlikely (as the first one had used most, if not all the available gas. It was a chance they were prepared to take, just as they would hope someone would take the chance for them if the situation was reversed.

Looking after your mates, loyalty, etc - the sorts of things modern management knows nothing about and which can't be measured on a spreadsheet.

[Zedder]

They knew the risks - and the prevailing wisdom was that the risk of another explosion was unlikely (as the first one had used most, if not all the available gas. It was a chance they were prepared to take, just as they would hope someone would take the chance for them if the situation was reversed.

Looking after your mates, loyalty, etc - the sorts of things modern management knows nothing about and which can't be measured on a spreadsheet.

The management would have been worried about the mixture of toxic gases called afterdamp, which occurs after an explosion.

[JimO]

the sorts of things modern management knows nothing about and which can't be measured on a spreadsheet.
in the age of OSH and safety signs and endless road cones modern management cant afford to take that sort of risk

[pete376403]

And no doubt the miners would have been aware of this (the afterdamp) too, and used appropriate equipment. But at least they would have tried.

And we can argue this back and forth forever, and nothing will change.

[BMWST?]

And no doubt the miners would have been aware of this (the afterdamp) too, and used appropriate equipment. But at least they would have tried.

And we can argue this back and forth forever, and nothing will change.

And I say again with 20/20 hindsight you are always right

[Zedder]

And no doubt the miners would have been aware of this (the afterdamp) too, and used appropriate equipment. But at least they would have tried.

And we can argue this back and forth forever, and nothing will change.

The problem with afterdamp is it can cause a coal dust explosion so there is no appropriate equipment. IIRC, the first step after a mining explosion, is to test the atmosphere and then work out the next step.

[jonbuoy]

They knew the risks - and the prevailing wisdom was that the risk of another explosion was unlikely (as the first one had used most, if not all the available gas. It was a chance they were prepared to take, just as they would hope someone would take the chance for them if the situation was reversed.

Looking after your mates, loyalty, etc - the sorts of things modern management knows nothing about and which can't be measured on a spreadsheet.

They can´t afford to - even letting "volunteer" rescuers down would have opened them up to being sued/fined for allowing more people to be put at risk inside the mine.

[Banditbandit]

Well having been on the receiving end of the civil disobedience, plywood shields used as weapins we'll agree to disagree on the "rights"of the "peaceful" protestors not to get their just deserts then.

Sent from my LG-P768 using Tapatalk

Can I send your Tapatalk phone a 30-odd year apology - I admit that plywood sheidls made very good weapons - especially if police bend down to hit protetor's legs ... and then look down ... offering their necks below their helmets as perfect targets ...

But I don't agree that "peaceful" protestors should not get their just deserts .. I knew what would occur ... police were doing exactly as the PTB in our society demanded of them ... and responded to civil disobedience ... I do object to the fact that the women around me got hit a lot more thabn I did .. I wonder why ???

Different times .. different actions ..

[Banditbandit]

I'd agree, they don't bash anywhere enough protestors



Don't forget Parihaka

As far as I am aware Parihaka was not a police action .. it was what became our army's action ..

[Banditbandit]

And could you imagine the fallout if they said yes go right on in and it blew up.

Or that they had gone in .. and been affected by gas .. just as the Brunner Mine first rescuers were .. and then had to be rescued themselves - or died ..

[Winston001]

Or that they had gone in .. and been affected by gas .. just as the Brunner Mine first rescuers were .. and then had to be rescued themselves - or died ..

Beat me to it. :D

A lot of the rescuers in the Brunner mine (1896) had to be carried out themselves after becoming unconcious. Still they kept at it and it took several days to reach the men - all 65 of them dead sadly.

The thing about Pike is any rescuers had to walk 1.5 km to the drift and that's too far even with modern breathing equipment, never mind rock falls and fires along the way.

Nevertheless part of me says they should have let volunteers go in.

[husaberg]

Beat me to it. :D

A lot of the rescuers in the Brunner mine (1896) had to be carried out themselves after becoming unconcious. Still they kept at it and it took several days to reach the men - all 65 of them dead sadly.

The thing about Pike is any rescuers had to walk 1.5 km to the drift and that's too far even with modern breathing equipment, never mind rock falls and fires along the way.

Nevertheless part of me says they should have let volunteers go in.

This has to be replied to.

the parallels between the Brunner explosion need to be drawn.
there was at least another 200 odd people in the Brunner mine at the time of the explosion. these were working in another section that were able to leave the mine unaided through the other methods of egress available to them from the mine.

The section of the Brunner mine that blew was ventilated from a single drive like the Pike mine. The return airway was constructed by portioning the drive into two section with bratice (air in Air out, up the middle) when the mine blew so did the partition so if any people had have survived the explosion were killed the flumes that were then directed at them by the ventilation.
The Brunner mine also had its fan positioned outside the mine in a accessible location, which makes a lot of sense doesn't it.
In hindsight it was suggested that in the case of the Brunner explosion that they could have immediately flipped the belts and reversed the fan to remove all the toxic fumes, But that's the beauty of hindsight, I believe they did this later.

these options were not available in the case of the Pike mine due fan being located about km's underground possibly on the other-side of a rockfall and mining gear (at least two pieces of large equipment)


The owners of PIke were secured creditors carried insurance yet they seem to have no liability over the actions of the company, they own, it is a sad reflection of Human nature and the corporate mentality. NZOG has behaved shamefully. As did the owners of the Brunner mine over a hundred years ago.

if anyone wants to look into the ownership of NZOG they will be surprised at some of the shareholders. ACC WTF

[Kickaha]

As far as I am aware Parihaka was not a police action .. it was what became our army's action ..

New Zealand Armed Constabulary who were also used as police

[husaberg]

New Zealand Armed Constabulary who were also used as police
Both sides were not exactly innocent of atrocities were they?



Parihaka (http://1law4all.co.nz/news/parihaka/)
The Waitangi Tribunal’s 1996 interim Taranaki report, which stated, “The invasion and sacking of Parihaka must rank with the most heinous actions of any government in the last century” (referring to the 1800s). The Tribunal called it “the holocaust of Taranaki history.”

This ignorant and gross distortion of the truth has been repeated by several Treatyists, including M.P. Tariana Turia, and a language teacher in New Plymouth, who is described as a “Maori academic” (as they all are), Keri Opai. Mr Opai backed this ridiculous claim of “holocaust” by citing “the pillaging of Parihaka”.

The name of this place is starting to enter the lexicon of the grievance industry in a big way, with the Human Rights Commission making the statement, “The events that took place in and around Parihaka….have affected the political, cultural and spiritual dynamics of the entire country.” There have even been calls to have a special national day celebrated as “Parihaka Day”. So, it is time to look at the facts.

Fact No. 1 By the time of the Treaty of Waitangi there were only about a hundred and fifty Maori left in the whole of Taranaki. Roughly a third of the population had been massacred by invading tribes from Waikato, around another third had been taken back to the Waikato as slaves, while the remaining third had fled to the Wellington Area

Nine hundred members of this last third then invaded the Chatham Islands in 1835 where they killed, ate and all but exterminated the peaceful Moriori who lived there. A hundred or more Moriori women were laid out on the beach and stakes were driven through their bodies, the men being treated similarly. They were then eaten by Taranaki Maori. The Moriori population of about 1,600 was reduced to 101 survivors.

These were the Taranaki “holocausts” – Waikato Maori slaughtering Taranaki Maori, and Taranaki tribes butchering the peaceful Moriori.

[Zedder]

Both sides were not exactly innocent of atrocities were they?

No,no,no! It was those evil colonists who did it all, everything was hunky dory before they came, ask banditbandit...

[Paul in NZ]

No,no,no! It was those evil colonists who did it all, everything was hunky dory before they came, ask banditbandit...

Neither version is particularly fair..

Yes - Maori of the time could be rather bloodthirsty.... The enabler was the musket which became the currency of the time. Northern Maori had more contact (in quantity) earlier and certainly gained a jump in the arms race. Distant insults were dredged up and where they didnt exist, new ones were often manufactured to let the men of war do what they liked to do best of all.... It wasnt nice...

After the treaty only the Government was allowed to 'aquire' Maori land - apparently to stop abuses... New Plymouth was a New Zealand company settlement. The new Zealand company vhemently opposed the treaty and pretty well disregarded it leading to a lot of the problems that came later...

(this part from Wikipeadia)

Parihaka is located between Mount Taranaki and the Tasman Sea. In the 1870s and 1880s the settlement, then reputed to be the largest Māori village in New Zealand, became the centre of a major campaign of non-violent resistance to European occupation of confiscated land in the area.

The village was founded about 1866 by Māori chiefs Te Whiti o Rongomai and Tohu Kakahi on land seized by the government during the post-war land confiscations of the 1860s. The population of the village grew to more than 2000, attracting Māori who had been dispossessed of their land by confiscations[1] and impressing European visitors with its cleanliness and industry, and its extensive cultivations producing cash crops as well as food sufficient to feed its inhabitants.

When an influx of European settlers in Taranaki created a demand for farmland that outstripped the availability, the Grey government stepped up efforts to secure title to land it had confiscated but subsequently not taken up for settlement. From 1876 some Māori in Taranaki accepted "no fault" payments called takoha compensation, while some hapu, or sub-tribal groups, outside the confiscation zone took the Government's payments to allow surveying and settlement.[2] Māori near Parihaka and the Waimate Plains rejected the payments, however, and the government responded by drawing up plans to take the land by force.[3] In late 1878 the government began surveying the land and offering it for sale. Te Whiti and Tohu responded with a series of non-violent campaigns in which they first ploughed settlers' farmland and later erected fences across roadways to impress upon the government their right to occupy the confiscated land to which they believed they still had rights, given the government's failure to provide the reserves it had promised.[4] The campaigns sparked a series of arrests under martial law, resulting in more than 400 Māori being jailed in the South Island, where they remained without trial for as long as 16 months with the aid of a series of new repressive laws.[5]

As fears grew among white settlers that the resistance campaign was a prelude to renewed armed conflict,[6] the Hall Government began planning a military assault at Parihaka to close it down.[7] Pressured by Native Minister John Bryce, the government finally acted in late October 1881 while the sympathetic Governor was out of the country. Led by Bryce, on horseback, 1600 troops and cavalry entered the village at dawn on 5 November 1881.[8] The soldiers were greeted with hundreds of skipping and singing children offering them food. Te Whiti and Tohu were arrested and jailed for 16 months, 1600 Parihaka inhabitants were expelled and dispersed throughout Taranaki without food or shelter and the remaining 600 residents were issued with government passes to control their movement. Soldiers looted and destroyed most of the buildings at Parihaka. Land that had been promised as reserves by a commission of inquiry into land confiscations was later seized and sold to cover the cost of crushing Te Whiti's resistance, while others were leased to European settlers, shutting Māori out of involvement in the decisions over land use.

In a major 1996 report, the Waitangi Tribunal claimed the events at Parihaka provided a graphic display of government antagonism to any show of Māori political independence. It noted: "A vibrant and productive Māori community was destroyed and total State control of all matters Māori, with full power over the Māori social order, was sought."[9] Historian Hazel Riseborough also believed the central issue motivating the invasion was mana: "Europeans were concerned about their superiority and dominance which, it seemed to them, could be assured only by destroying Te Whiti's mana. As long as he remained at Parihaka he constituted a threat to European supremacy in that he offered his people an alternative to the way of life the European sought to impose on them."[10]


I'm sorry - Parihaka was a bit of a clanger dropped by the NZ state on its citizens....

[Zedder]

[QUOTE=Paul in NZ;1130641523]Neither version is particularly fair..

Yes, things were messy in those days.

My comments though were aimed at the banditbandit school of thought which appears to blame the colonists of NZ for the feelings of anger, frustration and probably any failings of the Maori people.

[Paul in NZ]

[QUOTE=Paul in NZ;1130641523]Neither version is particularly fair..

Yes, things were messy in those days.

My comments though were aimed at the banditbandit school of thought which appears to blame the colonists of NZ for the feelings of anger, frustration and probably any failings of the Maori people.

And to be fair - when it came to the NZ company there was a reason to be unhappy... They knowingly broke the law... Sadly, like many colonial govts of the era, they were not called to account... The wars were over illegally obtained land and still land was confiscated... Maori were entitled to be a bit PO'd and still chose peaceful resistance...

[Zedder]

[QUOTE=Zedder;1130641535]

And to be fair - when it came to the NZ company there was a reason to be unhappy... They knowingly broke the law... Sadly, like many colonial govts of the era, they were not called to account... The wars were over illegally obtained land and still land was confiscated... Maori were entitled to be a bit PO'd and still chose peaceful resistance...

However, that was a while ago, they're being compensated, offered dedicated government support and a future. It's probably time to move on.

[Paul in NZ]

[QUOTE=Paul in NZ;1130641541]

However, that was a while ago, they're being compensated, offered dedicated government support and a future. It's probably time to move on.

Yup - but you might feel differently if it was your great grandad....

[mashman]

However, that was a while ago, they're being compensated, offered dedicated government support and a future. It's probably time to move on.

Assimilate you mean? You've been conquered? You're a part of our society and democracy rulez here? You're either one of us or one of them? Your culture must die because you're too expensive to keep? I've a feeling Maori could learn us a thing or two about our culture and what they think?

[Zedder]

[QUOTE=Zedder;1130641547]

Yup - but you might feel differently if it was your great grandad....

You mean the one that was killed at the Battle of Gate Pa?

[Zedder]

Assimilate you mean? You've been conquered? You're a part of our society and democracy rulez here? You're either one of us or one of them? Your culture must die because you're too expensive to keep? I've a feeling Maori could learn us a thing or two about our culture and what they think?

Is this assimilation?:http://www.tpk.govt.nz/en/about/mpa/

[Howie]

And I say again with 20/20 hindsight you are always right

sadly it is not all about hindsight but learning lessons from other industries and taking them on Board. if you read the full Pike river inquiry report one of the conclusions was


from the conclusions to part 2 chapter 20 avaliable as a pdf here
http://pikeriver.royalcommission.govt.nz/vwluResources/Final-Report-Vol2-Ch20/$file/Vol2-Chapter20-only.pdf

"As its inquiry proceeded the commission noted the extent to which the themes identified by inquiries into
previous tragedies were repeated at Pike River. History demonstrates that lessons learnt from past tragedies do not
automatically translate into better health and safety practice for the future. Institutional memory dims over time. This
confirms that good health and safety performance is only achievable with the effective, continued involvement of
the three key participants: employers, employees and the government regulator."




The sad fact is that Self regulation in Health and safety costs workers in injuries and lives. A thrid party regulartory agency is needed.

This was learnt only 10 years earlier in the inquiry into the deaths in the rail industry in the late 1990's including 5 in a 12 month period. This was at a time that the rail industry workers were not covered bt the Health and Safety in Employment Act 1992 because of a loop hole in the Act.

[BMWST?]

sadly it is not all about hindsight but learning lessons from other industries and taking them on Board. if you read the full Pike river inquiry report one of the conclusions was


from the conclusions to part 2 chapter 20 avaliable as a pdf here
http://pikeriver.royalcommission.govt.nz/vwluResources/Final-Report-Vol2-Ch20/$file/Vol2-Chapter20-only.pdf

"As its inquiry proceeded the commission noted the extent to which the themes identified by inquiries into
previous tragedies were repeated at Pike River. History demonstrates that lessons learnt from past tragedies do not
automatically translate into better health and safety practice for the future. Institutional memory dims over time. This
confirms that good health and safety performance is only achievable with the effective, continued involvement of
the three key participants: employers, employees and the government regulator."




The sad fact is that Self regulation in Health and safety costs workers in injuries and lives. A thrid party regulartory agency is needed.

This was learnt only 10 years earlier in the inquiry into the deaths in the rail industry in the late 1990's including 5 in a 12 month period. This was at a time that the rail industry workers were not covered bt the Health and Safety in Employment Act 1992 because of a loop hole in the Act.

Not talking about the general poor safety culture Paul.I am talking about the decision not to go into the mine directly after the first explosion

[husaberg]

Not talking about the general poor safety culture Paul.I am talking about the decision not to go into the mine directly after the first explosion

Its unlikely that they would have been able to have got into the mine area unfortunately.
I are still extremely upset they were not at least able to have tried. The mines rescre are the expects they alone should have been able to make a decision.
Gary Knowles gloating vindication "for not going in" because of the further explosions that happened many days later still riles me up.
The major problem that people don't consider however is that once the mine was on fire all the infrastructure roof bolts etc are now unable to be trusted.
The pike river tragedy is a systemic failure from the company, the employees, the owners, the governmental organisation that were in charge of mine and occupational safety and of the conservation department.
I hope something other than an end to underground mining will come of this.

But the Nats seem hell bent on selling off the coal reserves of Solid Energy which now includes Pike.

[oldrider]

Its unlikely that they would have been able to have got into the mine area unfortunately.
I are still extremely upset they were not at least able to have tried. The mines rescre are the expects they alone should have been able to make a decision.
Gary Knowles gloating vindication "for not going in" because of the further explosions that happened many days later still riles me up.
The major problem that people don't consider however is that once the mine was on fire all the infrastructure roof bolts etc are now unable to be trusted.
The pike river tragedy is a systemic failure from the company, the employees, the owners, the governmental organisation that were in charge of mine and occupational safety and of the conservation department.
I hope something other than an end to underground mining will come of this.

But the Nats seem hell bent on selling off the coal reserves of Solid Energy which now includes Pike.

True!

Everybody involved has a personal responsibility and accountability for their own actions attitudes and behaviour, there are many mitigating circumstances with Pike river!

The government does not have a bottomless pit of money, they only have what they steal off us the taxpayers and we give them permission to do what they do!

My biggest fear is that "we" will change the government for all the wrong reasons again and that always costs us more money and devalues what we have! :rolleyes:

[avgas]

Old man was a shift boss @ Pike, 1 month before d-day.
He had been complaining for about 1 year - finally gave up and walked off site.

I'm thankful he didn't keep trying to fix/mitigate things. So responsibility is a funny term to use, but I know he certainly feels accountable.

The inquiry has never interviewed him. I think he prefers it that way - doesn't matter what he says about the BS management, won't bring the dead back to life.

If we are serious about having mines in NZ - we need to expand the mines inspection teams to that of the 70's. Stop cost cutting on safety. When we do - people die.