Get some of your ACC levy back

[rastuscat]

Yes, this year again ACC is heavily subsidising rider training in Canterbury.

It's happening elsewhere too, but I know it's happening in Canterbury.

Go to

http://www.rideforever.co.nz/training/

Here's how it works. Enrol for a course that normally costs, say $295. Do the course, and pay only $50. the provider then pays the balance.

Now, you can sit around and grizzle about how unfair it is, how they should take their masks off and stop robbing us, yaddy yaddy yaddy. Sadly, you may have to wait a while for that.

Or, you can go and do some training, have them pay for it and feel like you at least got some value for your money.

If you want, pm me and I'll send you a brochure, but it's easier just to go to the website.

Donuts.

290265

[Bald Eagle]

Best $50 I ever spent. And your entitlent clock resets annually so you can go again after Novembef. $240 saved theres a few years acc msac money recovered.

Sent from my LG-P768 using Tapatalk

[nzmikey]

Do they teach you how to do this ?

http://i.imgur.com/hFwurxi.jpg

[GTRMAN]

If you like

[Drew]

On the off chance that the trainers are actually getting paid $295 per rider, I'll still sit it out on principle.

[phill-k]

Did it with Pro Rider up in Whangarei a month ago very good value, all day on a circuit up here I often ride in about an hour, was shagged by the time I got back home, lots of good advice / sometimes reinforcing what you already know but good to have a professional follow and critique how you ride, great group of like minded participants so a good day.

[rastuscat]

On the off chance that the trainers are actually getting paid $295 per rider, I'll still sit it out on principle.

Have a good time sitting on your principles. You won't be any better off, but have a good time anyway.

The guys who deliver the courses are private companies who contract to ACC. They're entitled to earn a living.

[Oakie]

I did it a year or so ago. Well worth the $50 it cost my employer ... 'personal development'.

[SMOKEU]

I'm keen for more rider training, as I really need some.

[george formby]

Good heads up. Thank you.

[Drew]

Have a good time sitting on your principles. You won't be any better off, but have a good time anyway.

The guys who deliver the courses are private companies who contract to ACC. They're entitled to earn a living.

Take it however you want to read it.

[GTRMAN]

Take it however you want to read it.

Not to make a big issue of it Drew, but what is your issue with trainers getting paid? Do you do your job for free?

[Akzle]

can i ride a non-rego bike at the training?

[Laava]

Do they teach you how to do this ?

http://i.icom/hFwurxi.jpg

So THAT,s how you stop them from bursting into flames!

[Drew]

Not to make a big issue of it Drew, but what is your issue with trainers getting paid? Do you do your job for free?
I have no problem with the trainers getting paid.

I should of course have kept my trap shut until I know what the course entails and how many people there are per trainer. But if it's more than 3, I think they are milking a system and part of the problem.

[mossy1200]

I always wondered why my levies were so high. Now I understand. If they cant negotiate a good deal on a training course fee its not surprising they cant manage money well.

Its likely the course cost is $50 and the other $245 is being filtered away to buy more revenue cameras.

[avgas]

Clipped tickets is the revenue of the future - doncha' know

[SuperMac]

I have no problem with the trainers getting paid.

I should of course have kept my trap shut until I know what the course entails and how many people there are per trainer. But if it's more than 3, I think they are milking a system and part of the problem.

So are you suggesting that the trainers are going to retire early & rich? :banana:

I'm not in NZ, so only know my local training costs - as in both 'what it costs to run training' and 'what it costs to take training'.

Also, I know no rich trainers :)

Even as a part-timer with a Mon-Fri to pay the mortgage, I was charging about NZ$250 for a day 1:1 on-road training. If I'd been hiring a training site (especially a track of any sort) I'd have needed a fair number of trainees to cover the costs incurred, and probably would have needed run the session with several instructors and more riders taking part.

Picked not at random, since I know they run on-road, track, and other training courses:
http://www.hoppridertraining.co.uk/

On Road Training How Much is it? Our standard package is £250 for a full day of 1:1 instruction, if you want to share the day with a friend its £175 each for 2 people with one instructor.

Better Riding Days with Hopp Rider Training We hire the full circuit at Cadwell Park to give you a safe environment to improve your skills.
£195 for the day. 7x 20-minute sessions on track. Your morning will be spent learning the circuit in a mini-group of 6 bikes with your own instructor, with each of the 4 sessions being themed to a particular skill. In the afternoon you will have 3 more 20-minute sessions for free lapping

Advanced Machine Skills We have enormous airfield sites that we use to help you learn how your bike goes, turns and stops. It’s £135 per person


So roughly double those prices to NZ$ . . .

[Drew]

One on one training, I would pay more than $295 for the day happily.

I doubt the training would be terribly efficient at more than one trainer to four riders. For on road at least.

There was a training course offered free her in Wellington some time ago. I had a birthday party the night before though, so didn't take advantage of it. Mind, I would have been little more than a distraction for the others who took part. Even if I was sober.

[Tigadee]

Mind, I would have been little more than a distraction for the others who took part. Even if I was sober.

Yeah, I don't think drifts and wheelies would have been a good example of a safe rider.... Heh! Heh!

[Erelyes]

I did one of these $50 courses a month or so ago and can thoroughly recommend it.

Regarding the true cost, if you work out the numbers then it's not that much, especially when you consider that often the provider is having to trailer their own bike wherever the course is held (3 vehicle's worth of rego right there), possibly staying overnight, leasing somewhere to do the tuition, insurance, income tax, ACC levies, accountancy fees, course material, wear and tear on their own bike, petrol, buying a bunch of R/T / headsets etc...

If they charged 150/head they'd be better off working minimum wage and then we'd all go without :scratch:

Drew, 1-on-5 achieved something for me, but then I'm a noob. Even so, on a three hour ride they will spend over a half hour soley assessing your riding. Even if you're paying $50 to be told objectively that you're a fucken good rider, seems like good value to me.

My 2c

[Zedder]

The Gubbermint should stop pissing around and make training compulsory at full price 'cos there's bills to pay etc.

Next up, birth levy 'cos ya gunna have an accident sooner or later and there's bills to pay etc...

[nzmikey]

So THAT,s how you stop them from bursting into flames!

Depends on if he landed it correctly .... :clap:

[Gremlin]

I think its unfair that experienced riders should subsidise training for new or returning riders. Why then not put the cost of car registration up to subsidise driving lessons to use the same analogy.
Why do you presume that only new or returning riders would benefit from training? Quite common to see poor riding from riders that have been riding a couple of decades. The bad habits become the norm and the riding standard slips.

One thing to note, in my opinion, a day does not a better rider make. It takes continuous effort over the course of time, to remain riding well. However, it's sure better than nothing and will highlight issues you need to work on.

[GTRMAN]

I think its unfair that experienced riders should subsidise training for new or returning riders. Why then not put the cost of car registration up to subsidise driving lessons to use the same
analogy.

So does experienced mean you have nothing left to learn or improve on?

Perhaps this is part of the issue, as riders we think we know it all. Right up to the point when we realise we don't, generally when it all goes wrong...

[Zedder]

Why do you presume that only new or returning riders would benefit from training? Quite common to see poor riding from riders that have been riding a couple of decades. The bad habits become the norm and the riding standard slips.

One thing to note, in my opinion, a day does not a better rider make. It takes continuous effort over the course of time, to remain riding well. However, it's sure better than nothing and will highlight issues you need to work on.

I'm in the riding for a couple of decades bracket, however it's compounded by riding on the road over here for only 6 months of the year.

Luckily I ride a bit off road in OZ but I do have to "retrain" every time I come back to NZ which takes a rides or two.

[rastuscat]

Best part about a 1-day training thingy is making you realize that there are things about your riding that you can improve.

Self awareness is a wonderful thing. Lots of us think we are the dogz bollix on the bike, with little to learn.

Back a couple of years there was a thing called Biketoberfest in Manchester Street, Chur Chur.

I was asked to go out on a group ride on the Popo bike with a group of "experienced" guys on the new range of Harleys. Worst group riding experience of my life. Thing is, we Popos practice formation riding, so I guess expecting everyone to know the formations was a bit silly. Honestly tho, I'll never ride with a group like that again.

Yes, all experienced riders. Nightmare.

[rastuscat]

Luckily I ride a bit off road in OZ but I do have to "retrain" every time I come back to NZ which takes a rides or two.

I personally don't ride off road, but the best guys I know on the road are off-roaders too. It teaches bike handling skills par excellence.

When we did the original Popo bike course, we used XR200s to learn the skills, which then transferred to the R1150RT-Ps. Great skill transfer.

[Zedder]

I personally don't ride off road, but the best guys I know on the road are off-roaders too. It teaches bike handling skills par excellence.

When we did the original Popo bike course, we used XR200s to learn the skills, which then transferred to the R1150RT-Ps. Great skill transfer.

That's interesting rtc. I learnt to ride off road and it'll always be my favoured method of "having a blast" but I've never really thought of the skills being that much transferable due to the many different factors involved.

I think I would go for confidence in throwing a bike around as being right up there as far as major skill goes though.

[Erelyes]

I think its unfair that experienced riders should subsidise training for new or returning riders.

Y'know, if all goes to plan, you won't be.

The whole idea of spending ACC money on rider training is so that people don't end up writing themselves off and living off ACC for the rest of their lives.

If a thousand riders get subsidised to the tune of $200 each and just ONE of them doesn't write themselves off as a result, I would be willing to bet that ACC almost makes the money back right there. I hear that healthcare, rehab, etc can be expensive. And there are more rich doctors than rich motorcycle instructors.

[Drew]

With bikes not being as forgiving as cars I would think poor riders would not live long enough to ride poorly for decades. Perhaps you could define your idea of "Poor Riding" ?

Poor. Great situational awareness, but useless bike control.

Great bike control, but useless situational awareness.

Useless at both, but lucky as fuck.

There's no one doing it perfectly. There may not even be 'perfect'. But we should all try and be better.

I just don't think someone should drag in $1800 to follow some squids round and tell them they're fuckin hopeless.

[Gremlin]

With bikes not being as forgiving as cars I would think poor riders would not live long enough to ride poorly for decades. Perhaps you could define your idea of "Poor Riding" ?
It takes many forms, and there are many aspects to riding. As Drew says, situational awareness and bike control are two. Following road rules, advanced skills to improve visibility (both yours, and others of you) are more.

Case in point, caught up to a cruiser (suspect a Harley) in Waipoua Forest on Saturday. Followed him for several kilometres, and he never showed any signs of being aware I was following him (and a mate joined me while following). He certainly never made any attempt to let us pass (accelerated down each straight, and there is bugger all safe passing options in the forest). Lines all over the show, wheels the wrong side of the centre line on right handers. Mis-read corners, bad positioning made reading the corners harder etc. Basically, he could keep the bike upright and sort of get around corners, but that was about as far as his skills went. Literally, luck was on his side, but that's not going to last forever.

I ended up having to keep pulling back from him as I felt an incident was a when not an if, and didn't have any desire to complicate by being near him. Eventually he pulled off at Tane as he seemed to spot some mates (and slowed almost to a stop right in the middle of the first left hander leaving Tane)...

[rastuscat]

I would have to agree with you that going from an off road bike to a big road bike is not an easy transfer as you will be on something that weights 100kg or more which will be much less forgiving of rider error. From a speed perspective though I actually felt safer on the big road bike with its superior stability and braking.

I had learned my riding on road bikes, and took that with me when I did the original Popo qualifying course.

A couple of years later I was still struggling with a couple of things, and happened to be at the Popo College. An instructor there suggested I have a play on a road cone course with the XR, and I resulted in having an epiphany. He gave me about 2 hours of personal instruction, and I learned more in that 2 hours than I had in the previous 2 years. Little bikes take greater skill, IMHO.

Being able to master techniques without having to worry about the weight is the key. Once the technique is nailed, using it on the bigger behemoths was an easy transition. Don't worry, it still ain't easy, but it's do-able.

You can learn heaps of stuff on smaller, lighter bikes, which is why I don't encourage new riders to get in too much of a hurry to trade up.

Of course, there are those that will tell us that having a Gixxer Thou makes it easy to get out of awkward situations. Gotta get one as soon as you can.

Yeah right.

[rastuscat]

It takes many forms, and there are many aspects to riding. As Drew says, situational awareness and bike control are two. Following road rules, advanced skills to improve visibility (both yours, and others of you) are more.

Case in point, caught up to a cruiser (suspect a Harley) in Waipoua Forest on Saturday. Followed him for several kilometres, and he never showed any signs of being aware I was following him (and a mate joined me while following). He certainly never made any attempt to let us pass (accelerated down each straight, and there is bugger all safe passing options in the forest). Lines all over the show, wheels the wrong side of the centre line on right handers. Mis-read corners, bad positioning made reading the corners harder etc. Basically, he could keep the bike upright and sort of get around corners, but that was about as far as his skills went. Literally, luck was on his side, but that's not going to last forever.

Yeah, but if I had 3T'd him he'd have told me all about how long he'd been riding for, and how safe he was, and how he'd never had a crash, and how I should go catch a rapist, and how I should get a real job, and how ...........you get the point.

[Drew]

I had learned my riding on road bikes, and took that with me when I did the original Popo qualifying course.

A couple of years later I was still struggling with a couple of things, and happened to be at the Popo College. An instructor there suggested I have a play on a road cone course with the XR, and I resulted in having an epiphany. He gave me about 2 hours of personal instruction, and I learned more in that 2 hours than I had in the previous 2 years. Little bikes take greater skill, IMHO.

Being able to master techniques without having to worry about the weight is the key. Once the technique is nailed, using it on the bigger behemoths was an easy transition. Don't worry, it still ain't easy, but it's do-able.

You can learn heaps of stuff on smaller, lighter bikes, which is why I don't encourage new riders to get in too much of a hurry to trade up.

Of course, there are those that will tell us that having a Gixxer Thou makes it easy to get out of awkward situations. Gotta get one as soon as you can.

Yeah right.
I've been working at the police college for a few months now. Haven't seen any bike training done at all.

Seen heaps of skid training though. It is not encouraging. Instructor is a funny cunt though, does some mean sideways laps.

[Gremlin]

Yeah, but if I had 3T'd him he'd have told me all about how long he'd been riding for, and how safe he was, and how he'd never had a crash, and how I should go catch a rapist, and how I should get a real job, and how ...........you get the point.
"Lovely story, here's your infringement *insert advice about rider training* have a nice day"

Then again, you probably already do that.

Oh, and coming back from the forest, down the boring straights south of Dargaville, we're pootling through a 50kph section, large group of 30+ cruisers come past. As I ease up to 100 I stay to the left side of the road and they keep passing. Down the road I saw them passing a bus around a left hander with no visibility... lemmings. That got topped though by a car in a ditch near Ruawai. Looked like they'd gone off the road, ditch was quite a drop down and they'd kept going along the ditch... no idea what happened there. :eek:

[R650R]

I personally don't ride off road, but the best guys I know on the road are off-roaders too. It teaches bike handling skills par excellence.

When we did the original Popo bike course, we used XR200s to learn the skills, which then transferred to the R1150RT-Ps. Great skill transfer.

Yes, even before I got the DR I used to take all my sportsbikes down gravel roads here and there exploring. Not doing anything special or riding fast but you still end up with the bike moving around under you a little. It takes awhile but you instinctively learn after awhile the feeling of the front end about to wash out and learn the only way to save it is more gas. I think with todays breed of shiney bikes less riders go down gravel roads and learn these skills. On a recent club ride I cringed watching a rider on a shiney cruiser wobbling everywhere sitting on the centre of the gravel berm at stall speed...

[Gremlin]

The bike you think he is riding if its a Harley would impose serious limitations on his cornering ability so apart from a lesson in checking the rear view mirror to allow faster traffic to pass his only other mistake was choice of bike.
eh? :blink: So you condone crossing the centre line on right handers, because the bike doesn't have sufficient clearance?

Letting faster traffic pass is not a requirement in this case as he wasn't holding up a line of cars, but simply courteous (ie, I let faster cars pass, as what's the point holding them up?). Riding within the ability of a bike is something I took for granted apparently. I've ridden cruisers (not a Harley, but last was a Honda VTX1800) and I didn't need to cross the centre line at all. The suspension struggled as I was 2up, but I backed off and things flowed better.

On a right hander, I expect the rider to be far enough left that the entire bike and rider (including head) is all within their own lane. Anything else is asking for an unlucky moment...

[GTRMAN]

Your claim is that the majority of bike accidents are caused by the rider but I thought it was by car etc drivers hence the reason why there was such a big protest a few years back over reg going up. The cost of reg should have gone up for car drivers too in all fairness if the statistics are true.

Actually no, the majority of motorcycle accidents are due to rider error, it is when another vehicle is involved that it is generally the "I didn't see you" scenario.

[ajturbo]

Do they teach you how to do this ?

Fark.. thats what i almost did when heading into St. Arnard.....!!! :baby:

[thepom]

I did one of the courses and I,ve been riding for many years....still learned good lessons and a good days riding with Duncan Seed...money well spent....

[Muppet]

On the off chance that the trainers are actually getting paid $295 per rider, I'll still sit it out on principle.

Love your avatar but you're a miserable prick. Bet you'd take $295 a throw if it was offered. I've worked alongside those guys and their knowledge and skills are priceless, more training is the key to less accidents unless you prefer a hospital bed or court appearance or both?

[Muppet]

Actually no, the majority of motorcycle accidents are due to rider error, it is when another vehicle is involved that it is generally the "I didn't see you" scenario.

You're right. Insurance companies know it and we know it.

[R650R]

Here's a thought, how about an option where you pay NO ACC levy on registration as long as you have comprehensive medical insurance. Now there's an idea that would save the govt tons of money... but they would lose another avenue of control...

[rastuscat]

If negotiating road cones was seen as being beneficial that would become part of the practical license test I would have thought.

It is.


In what road riding situations has that helped you?

I ride a troll bike up Victoria Street. I see a bloke driving the other way chatting on his cellphone. I snap a u-turn in 5.3 metres, and he's mine.

I drive a troll car up Victoria Street. I see a bloke driving the other way chatting on his cellphone. I keep driving. The guy has learnt that he can get away with it.

That's when the cone work pays off.

[GTRMAN]

It is.



I ride a troll bike up Victoria Street. I see a bloke driving the other way chatting on his cellphone. I snap a u-turn in 5.3 metres, and he's mine.

I drive a troll car up Victoria Street. I see a bloke driving the other way chatting on his cellphone. I keep driving. The guy has learnt that he can get away with it.

That's when the cone work pays off.

Teardrop rastus?

[rastuscat]

Teardrops indeed. Quite cool fun chucking a heavy bike around.

[The Reibz]

That's when the cone work pays off.

You smoke cones bru?

[rastuscat]

If you had a camera in your car that could snap the guy on the cellphone like a speed camera you would have him in both cases without doing a u turn.
In time perhaps speed cameras will be able to snap cellphone users as well as speed. A far more dangerous practice than 10km over the limit in my opinion
but they have not upped the penalty for that over the holidays.

Interesting point.

Presently the law makes it hard to use photographic evidence other than speed cameras, red light cameras and some local body transit lane cameras. For each of these there is an ability to simply post a ticket out to the owner of the vehicle.

If I were to photo, for example, a bloke on a cellphone, I yhen have to write a letter to the owner demanding the name of the driver. Sounds easy. But when I get no reply, I then have to go and chase down the owner, who may have moved (especially in Christchurch where half the population has moved). Et voilà, one simple cellphone offence has createdat least 2 hours of paperwork and potential subsequent enquiry.

Folk often tell us we should just use cameras and post tickets out. Unless its an owner liability offence, that can't happen.

Enforcement I can do. Law changes are beyond me.

Just sayin.

[GTRMAN]

Its not his own bike so he can take a greater risk. The idea of road cone training was for pursuit purposes
as opposed to road saftey based on what he said.

Actually road cone work is invaluable for teaching tight turns such as u turns in narrow streets. Granted rastus may be using a work bike but are you saying you are unwilling to see how tight you can make your bike turn because you are afraid of dropping it?

[GTRMAN]

Teardrops indeed. Quite cool fun chucking a heavy bike around.

That it is, can get a little unnerving when you start grinding the crash bars though ;)

[Kickaha]

But wouldnt the same situation apply with a speed camera clicking a company car or does the employer pay and get reimbursed by the employee.

In our case the company contacts the person the vehicle is assigned to and asks for the details of who was driving at the time and the ticket is sent to them to sort out

Get caught with say a cell phone driving and the company takes disciplinary action as well as you getting hit with the fine and demerits

[Gremlin]

Its not his own bike so he can take a greater risk. The idea of road cone training was for pursuit purposes
as opposed to road saftey based on what he said.
I enjoy practising those types of skills, and it's usually on my own bike. Knowing how the bike reacts at various speeds, with certain inputs and loading, is key to controlling a bike. All very well knowing how to ride at 100kph, but what about 10kph? The slower the speed, the less the gyroscopic force is from the wheels and the less stable the bike is.

Granted, most of it is for events, but being able to do 2up u-turns one after another is a necessary skill for me. 10kph up a hill with the pillion moving around, just into speeds requiring the clutch, through to 100kph while bike and people weigh close to half a ton.

No pursuit purpose for me (well, other than being chased by cyclists now and then), but road safety? Absolutely. We are doing roles to make situations safer, and adding danger would be the exact opposite.

[rastuscat]

But wouldnt the same situation apply with a speed camera clicking a company car or does the employer pay and get reimbursed by the employee. If its a demerit point offense how are the demerit points passed to the employee?
A lot of paperwork too I would have thought.

In the case of speed cams, red light cams and transit lane cams legal liability is with the owner. They have to do a transfer of liability to whoever was driving. If they dont, and the fine just gets paid, the offence is recorded against them. Some just dont care, but it matters.

For example, Josephine Average is 47. She owns a red RX7 which her 18 year old son Knobend Average drives. The RX7 is registered to Josephine. Knobend has a heavy foot, and keeps getting flashed by a camera. When the tickets arrive Josephine goes and pays them with money she has beaten out of Knobend. She's a good citizen and wants to make sure he pays his fines. Instead of transferring liability, she logs into her internet banking and voila, fine paid.

Problem arises when she applies for insurance for the WRX shes bought for her 18 year old daughter Primrose. Insurance company asks about tickets for Jo or Primrose, Jo honestly says no. But on her record are all of Knobends tickets.

That's why there have been no points for camera offences in NZ. The gubbermint regards it as unfair to allocate points just in case the owner wasn't actually driving, even if they pay the fine.

In Oz they allocate points, and double them at certain times, on camera offences. It places the onus on the registered person to transfer the liability to the actual driver.

It leads to anomalies. Say a husband has had enough tickets to almost lose his license. He gets snapped again. When the ticket arrives he transfers liability to his wife who hasnt had tickets for years. See? Points shared around are points avoided, and once again, its the honest folk who get nailed.

It's a minefield, cameras and points. All other offences like stop signs, cellphones, seatbelts etc are just too bureaucracy-bound to make it practical to enforcexwith cameras. The only practical way is to stop the offending driver to establish identity for the purpose of commencing action.

Long reply sorry, but it's a complex field.