ACC is not invincible

[Edbear]

It only took 12 months, and yesterday I won my case with ACC. It was that old chestnut, "pre-existing degenerative condition" excuse. I know of people who have fought for years with Lawyers and are still waiting, or have taken three years to get a result using an expensive lawyer.

If anyone has a genuine case and isn't sure what to do and can't afford a lawyer, I have now an extensive knowledge of ACC legislation and proceedures and would be happy to help if I can.

Happy day yesterday! :first:

[nzmikey]

....... :clap::banana:

[Paul in NZ]

Good job - you wore the buggers down eh?

[fridayflash]

congrats man! theyre bloody hard work that mob..ive had trouble with them double billing me on acc levies (i pay the bill...then get another bill from a debt collecting agency)....they did that to me two years in a row and wouldnt accept it as a wrong ("im sorry sir, you dont understand, we'll talk to your accountant") after perservering i got the extras dropped, but have heard others say theyd had the same trick pulled on them....how many just accepted and paid up?:mad:

[Akzle]

more importantly, do you still get cheap drugs?

[Edbear]

Yup! The key is knowing what you are entitled to and checking the legislation carefully. Ask lots of questions and don't stop at a "No" if you think you are right. My case was clear in that you can't deny a back full of scaffolding, and a surgeon who directly disagrees with the assessing Doctor.

You need patience, as even if your case manager is on your side, they have a lot of legislative processes to go through. I was able to analyze a 10 page report from the medical officer and use terms and legislative references along with medical definitions and present my affidavits in their own terms. I analyzed MRI, and CT reports as well as the doctor's, radiologists and surgeon's reports to highlight the support for my contention.

Even so, I could still be fighting if my case manager wasn't both very experienced in ACC legislation and procedures, but also activity in my court. I owe her a big box of chocolates and a bunch of flowers! She used technicalities in the legislation to interpret it in my favour, and had the mana to pull strings and get things done far quicker than otherwise possible.

[Edbear]

more importantly, do you still get cheap drugs?

Cheap? I get them free! As much as I want. ..

[BuzzardNZ]

Congrats Ed.

My old mum slipped over and hurt her knee and needed an operation to sort it out.

ACC denied her claim saying it was a 'degenerative condition' even though her Dr stated it wasn't and she'd never had any knee problems before. Bastards!

Good on you for standing up to them and winning!

[Edbear]

Good job - you wore the buggers down eh?

It's taken its toll on me, too. I feel like a wrung out dish rag. Lawyers can be dispassionate, but when it is you, it's very personal.

[Edbear]

Congrats Ed.

My old mum slipped over and hurt her knee and needed an operation to sort it out.

ACC denied her claim saying it was a 'degenerative condition' even though her Dr stated it wasn't and she'd never had any knee problems before. Bastards!

Good on you for standing up to them and winning!

She, or someone else, could have pursued it. Having Cushing's, could have worked against me were it not for my surgeon, too, as it causes an Osteoporosis and can lead to fractures even without a car accident.

Now, it works against my physiotherapy making progress slow and uncertain.

[Maha]

I had a knackered knee for about 5 years, ACC did not want to know about it after their ''medical expert'' said it was bursitis (or fluid on the knee) even though this ''medical expert'' had not even seen the knee.
An orthopaedic surgeon examined the knee and said it would need surgery, I elected to live with it and carried on working kneeling on one knee only (flooring is my trade) about a month ago, and by accident, I put the nursed knee on the ground and it didn't hurt, so now I can use two knee pads! wait long enough and the body will heal itself.

[Edbear]

I had a knacker knee for about 5 years, ACC did not want to know about it after their ''medical expert'' said it was bursitis (or fluid on the knee) even though this ''medical expert'' had not even seen the knee.
An orthopaedic surgeon examined the knee and said it would need surgery, I elected to live with it and carried on working kneeling on one knee only (flooring is my trade) about a month ago, and by accident, I put the nursed knee on the ground and it didn't hurt, so now I can use two knee pads! wait long enough and the body will heal itself.

Most injuries heal up, and with my surgery, it is healed and stable The issues are due to the immobility of most of my spine and Cushing's Syndrome.

I have just got back from a physical asessment to establish a base line of where I am at. I am shattered! The exercises were simple and would be of no consequence to most people.

If you take a 100% figure as being fully fit for a man of my age, height and weight, I was assessed at 1%. Not a misprint, one percent! It was pathetic how weak and wobbly I am. Still, he reckons I can improve with physio, not sure how much or how long it will take, but he's recommending me for a treatment program.

[avgas]

Hate to say it Ed, but ACC still stand and not only that they made another $5B profit while you were fighting them.

I don't even think you won the battle. They just made it look like your did.

(My old man has elected to go private with his stuff now.....and is looking at at $120K bill at the end......ACC are scum, money grabbing scum)

[Tazz]

Even so, I could still be fighting if my case manager wasn't both very experienced in ACC legislation and procedures, but also activity in my court. I owe her a big box of chocolates and a bunch of flowers! She used technicalities in the legislation to interpret it in my favour, and had the mana to pull strings and get things done far quicker than otherwise possible.

Don't say too much or she'll be out of a job :laugh:

[Edbear]

Hate to say it Ed, but ACC still stand and not only that they made another $5B profit while you were fighting them.

I don't even think you won the battle. They just made it look like your did.

(My old man has elected to go private with his stuff now.....and is looking at at $120K bill at the end......ACC are scum, money grabbing scum)

Well, whatever you call it, they are paying me a fairly sizable sum which I'm not about to turn down. :niceone:

I haven't finished with them yet, though, there's this other matter of permanent impairment which I don't agree was assesed at nearly enough... :msn-wink:

[Edbear]

Don't say to much or she'll be out of a job :laugh:

Yeah, I was going to put in a plug for her to management, but decided it may not be the best idea... :no:

[bucket boy]

Most injuries heal up, and with my surgery, it is healed and stable The issues are due to the immobility of most of my spine and Cushing's Syndrome.

I have just got back from a physical asessment to establish a base line of where I am at. I am shattered! The exercises were simple and would be of no consequence to most people.

If you take a 100% figure as being fully fit for a man of my age, height and weight, I was assessed at 1%. Not a misprint, one percent! It was pathetic how weak and wobbly I am. Still, he reckons I can improve with physio, not sure how much or how long it will take, but he's recommending me for a treatment program.
For a man that is shattered you seem to have alot of energy for kb.

[jasonu]

For a man that is shattered you seem to have alot of energy for kb.

Only until ACC send someone around to smash his typing finger. Good luck getting compo for that injury...

[bucket boy]

Only until ACC send someone around to smash his typing finger. Good luck getting compo for that injury...

Acc wont want to do that,they want to find him a job he can sustainably do.

[mashman]

Was just reading about your ACC success (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/20057762/acc-fraudster-gets-home-detention/) :niceone:

[nodrog]

Acc wont want to do that,they want to find him a job he can sustainably do.

he could be a typer.

[nzspokes]

That's great Ed. Glad to hear you got there. :niceone:

Our experience with ACC has been great. They have been very supportive and helpful getting Sharry better and back to work.

[caseye]

For a man that is shattered you seem to have alot of energy for kb.

ED, well done mate!.
bucket, if you knew the half of it you'd still be NOT qualified to comment.
For me with a simple broken leg It took nearly a year of No income, no help of any sort to beat ACC and get paid out, Not enough to cover my expenses, but enough that ACC will never fuck with me again.
On ya ED!
Hope the drugs do exactly what they're're supposed to.
An don't stop, go them for the proper amount of compensation, you've paid into their screwed up scheme all your life, time you got what is rightfully yours, back.

[avgas]

That's great Ed. Glad to hear you got there. :niceone:
Our experience with ACC has been great. They have been very supportive and helpful getting Sharry better and back to work.
aka "Rushing the job".

Talk to you in 20 years when the injury flares up again and she needs permanent treatment.....lets see if ACC cover her then or put it under:
"Pre-existing condition" for the reason not to pay you.

See what they don't tell you is every year your a different policy - so if you got messed up last year and the injury rears its ugly head again....I'm sorry who are you - that is clearly due to something that happened last year - aka pre-existing condition.

And people wonder how they make on average $1B PROFIT every year.

[nzspokes]

aka "Rushing the job".

Talk to you in 20 years when the injury flares up again and she needs permanent treatment.....lets see if ACC cover her then or put it under:
"Pre-existing condition" for the reason not to pay you.

See what they don't tell you is every year your a different policy - so if you got messed up last year and the injury rears its ugly head again....I'm sorry who are you - that is clearly due to something that happened last year - aka pre-existing condition.

And people wonder how they make on average $1B PROFIT every year.

You have no idea what your waffling about champ. There was no rushing from ACC.

And the injury's will never be fully better.

[Stirts]

bucket, if you knew the half of it you'd still be NOT qualified to comment.

Trust me when I say Buckey Boy is more than qualified to comment. I could list his injuries and the amount of times ACC have tried to fuck him over, but I would then have to submit a ACC claim form for OOS from the all the farking typing.

[avgas]

You have no idea what your waffling about champ.
And the injury's will never be fully better.
Try me - I have a reasonable list of fun bits.......but right now my problem is I am trying to help my father pay a $120,000+ medical bill for repairs on my father 20 years post his "ACC rehabilitation".

As for the injury not being fully better - ask yourself one question - what happens if it gets worse?
You think a broken bone is bad?

[nzspokes]

Try me - I have a reasonable list of fun bits.......but right now my problem is I am trying to help my father pay a $120,000+ medical bill for repairs on my father 20 years post his "ACC rehabilitation".

As for the injury not being fully better - ask yourself one question - what happens if it gets worse?
You think a broken bone is bad?

Bones cant be repaired that are no longer there. 2 medical missadventure cases. More surgery next year.

[Erelyes]

Cheap? I get them free! As much as I want. ..

I notice you didn't use the word 'need'.

[Edbear]

Was just reading about your ACC success (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/20057762/acc-fraudster-gets-home-detention/) :niceone:

Ha ha!


Acc wont want to do that,they want to find him a job he can sustainably do.

At the moment, they just want to know if I can improve. They know all about my business and what I've been doing for the past three years since the accident. That's another important point, be honest! Try to stuff them around, and you will be very quickly dealt to! Like IRD, if they think you are trying to do the right thing, they will do everything they can to help, but if they think you are trying to pull the wool over their eyes, well...


That's great Ed. Glad to hear you got there. :niceone:

Our experience with ACC has been great. They have been very supportive and helpful getting Sharry better and back to work.

They were fantastic to me after the accident and couldn't do enough. They still need to sort the difference of opinion on the L1 fracture and the resultant fusion, and are paying me on the L4 fracture meantime.


ED, well done mate!.
bucket, if you knew the half of it you'd still be NOT qualified to comment.
For me with a simple broken leg It took nearly a year of No income, no help of any sort to beat ACC and get paid out, Not enough to cover my expenses, but enough that ACC will never fuck with me again.
On ya ED!
Hope the drugs do exactly what they're're supposed to.
An don't stop, go them for the proper amount of compensation, you've paid into their screwed up scheme all your life, time you got what is rightfully yours, back.

Still got more to go, for sure. Meantime I will be able to recover a significant sum of the money I have invested in the business and it will allow me to do more to promote it. My poor wifey, who has seen all our cash go into the business, is relieved too, and today is handing in her notice to quit her job after ten years. Her body is telling her it is too old now to do what she's been doing. That is a wrench for her, as she loves her job and the children love her.

She will join me in the business, and possibly do another job she's well qualified for that is physicaly easier.


I notice you didn't use the word 'need'.

"Need", "want', all the same, as I want what I need and need what I want... :mellow: I have tried every which way to reduce reliance on painkillers, but I'm waiting for an appointment with the pain clinic to see if they can suggest anything else.

[Grumph]

Just had an experience myself which points up how fucked the ACC system is...

Short story...scheduled visit to cardiologist at ChCh public, slipped standing up in the waiting room. Tweaked achilles...bearable, lived with it till about 3 months later I stumbled in our yard and gave it a real hammering.
Went to A&E at chCh public - 70km drive and there all day...got ultrasound eventually. Microtearing...

ACC have declined claim - Preexisting injury....all of 3 months old and the result of an accident ffs.

Now I've not claimed ERC, there will be no follow up visit or surgery....As far as I know I may get a bill from the DHB for the A&E treatment now ACC won't pay them. My response is going to be that the DHB can eat the costs as without the original slip on their grounds the cost would not have been incurred....

[nodrog]

ED, well done mate!.
bucket, if you knew the half of it you'd still be NOT qualified to comment.
For me with a simple broken leg It took nearly a year of No income, no help of any sort to beat ACC and get paid out, Not enough to cover my expenses, but enough that ACC will never fuck with me again.
On ya ED!
Hope the drugs do exactly what they're're supposed to.
An don't stop, go them for the proper amount of compensation, you've paid into their screwed up scheme all your life, time you got what is rightfully yours, back.

Kelvin makes edbears problem look like a 7 year old girl with a stubbed toe. He just doesnt whinge about it.

[Katman]

I have tried every which way to reduce reliance on painkillers, but I'm waiting for an appointment with the pain clinic to see if they can suggest anything else.

You could always try hardening the fuck up for a change.

[Edbear]

Just had an experience myself which points up how fucked the ACC system is...

Short story...scheduled visit to cardiologist at ChCh public, slipped standing up in the waiting room. Tweaked achilles...bearable, lived with it till about 3 months later I stumbled in our yard and gave it a real hammering.
Went to A&E at chCh public - 70km drive and there all day...got ultrasound eventually. Microtearing...

ACC have declined claim - Preexisting injury....all of 3 months old and the result of an accident ffs.

Now I've not claimed ERC, there will be no follow up visit or surgery....As far as I know I may get a bill from the DHB for the A&E treatment now ACC won't pay them. My response is going to be that the DHB can eat the costs as without the original slip on their grounds the cost would not have been incurred....

I wouldn't accept that, mate. I can offer some possibilities if you want to PM me.


Kelvin makes edbears problem look like a 7 year old girl with a stubbed toe. He just doesnt whinge about it.

Not whinging at all, just saying what the situation is. I know I'm not the worst off by any means and you only have to look around to see how well of you really are.

My own case is rather complicated, being across two injuries, and I have been forunate in both knowing what to do and being able to present affidavits according to legislation and in analysing clinical reports, but also in having a case manager sympathetic and one who knows the law inside and out. It has been by carefully reading of the legislation and being able to decipher the legal and medical terms, that has lead to my winning my case.

[Edbear]

Try me - I have a reasonable list of fun bits.......but right now my problem is I am trying to help my father pay a $120,000+ medical bill for repairs on my father 20 years post his "ACC rehabilitation".

As for the injury not being fully better - ask yourself one question - what happens if it gets worse?
You think a broken bone is bad?

A key point with ACC is not to ever give up and go away. I made sure they knew I wasn't going to quit and that I had nothing to lose by pursuing it to the end. They were forced to take it seriously, especially when it became clear I knew the legislation and could relate to them on their own terms. Plus having the support of my surgeon, one who is used, and very well respected, by ACC for surgery and clinical assessments.

After pressure from people to get a lawyer, I tried a lawyer who was supposed to be an expert in ACC matters. He stuffed up and caused a two month delay, so I ditched him and did it on my own. Far cheaper and quicker! :yes:

[Big Dave]

OK - here's a go - Just about every Kiwi I know has an ACC frustration story. Even us temporary ones.
Yet if you criticise the system - or suggest it really isn't fair, you might as well have called Sir Ed a wimp!
Oscar is the only one I know who says it's bollox.
So what is it - are you lot brainwashed - or is a good idea gone bad - or is all OK and just amplified interweb misinformation?

[Big Dave]

a 7 year old girl with a stubbed toe.

Are your bandages off yet?

[nodrog]

Are your bandages off yet?

nearly.

wanna root?

[Big Dave]

nearly.

wanna root?

I knew you were going to ask, but no thanks, I've always gone for the older woman - and you're only worth 6 points with both blanks.

[nodrog]

I knew you were going to ask, but no thanks, I've always gone for the older woman - and you're only worth 6 points with both blanks.

The economy makes it hard being a slapper these days.

[Big Dave]

The economy makes it hard being a slapper these days.

More credit to you. Mission accomplished.

[Edbear]

OK - here's a go - Just about every Kiwi I know has an ACC frustration story. Even us temporary ones.
Yet if you criticise the system - or suggest it really isn't fair, you might as well have called Sir Ed a wimp!
Oscar is the only one I know who says it's bollox.
So what is it - are you lot brainwashed - or is a good idea gone bad - or is all OK and just amplified interweb misinformation?

It's the great NZ knocking machine in action. NZ's ACC system is the best in the world and the envy of people who live in other countries.

As my case demonstrates, when the human case managers get pressure to offload a long termer, you have all the necessary resources to set the record straight. Many have gone to a lawyer or Fair Go when they don't know what to do. Some give up and complain.

[Zedder]

OK - here's a go - Just about every Kiwi I know has an ACC frustration story. Even us temporary ones.
Yet if you criticise the system - or suggest it really isn't fair, you might as well have called Sir Ed a wimp!
Oscar is the only one I know who says it's bollox.
So what is it - are you lot brainwashed - or is a good idea gone bad - or is all OK and just amplified interweb misinformation?

IMHO ACC is a good in theory, however it's been dicked around with to the extent that it's become an absolute travesty and just another method of taxation plus an extremely unfair one to boot.

Other comments to that effect may be seen on the "Non payment of ACC levy..." thread.

[Zedder]

It's the great NZ knocking machine in action. NZ's ACC system is the best in the world and the envy of people who live in other countries.

As my case demonstrates, when the human case managers get pressure to offload a long termer, you have all the necessary resources to set the record straight. Many have gone to a lawyer or Fair Go when they don't know what to do. Some give up and complain.

It certainly doesn't come across as easy in your earlier postings. Why did it take so long to process then?

I've never had 12 months to wait on any insurance (that's what ACC is really) in my life. The longest is 3 months which was a Southern Cross medical care payout and I wasn't in the country for 2 of those months.

[Grumph]

I've never had 12 months to wait on any insurance (that's what ACC is really) in my life. The longest is 3 months which was a Southern Cross medical care payout and I wasn't in the country for 2 of those months.

Ah, but real commercial insurance doesn't start with the viewpoint that you're trying to commit fraud. They just want to pay you something and close the case quickly.
Recent events have shown me at least, that EQC is just the same as ACC - start with expectations of the worst case clients and try to deny any liability whatsoever.

The term "preexisting condition" is now in both ACC and EQC handbooks as standard terminology.

[Tazz]

Ah, but real commercial insurance doesn't start with the viewpoint that you're trying to commit fraud.

The hell they don't!

Oh wait, maybe it is actually them trying to commit fraud in regards to ridiculously pay outs =P

[Zedder]

Ah, but real commercial insurance doesn't start with the viewpoint that you're trying to commit fraud. They just want to pay you something and close the case quickly.
Recent events have shown me at least, that EQC is just the same as ACC - start with expectations of the worst case clients and try to deny any liability whatsoever.

The term "preexisting condition" is now in both ACC and EQC handbooks as standard terminology.

According to Edbears posts though, it's not a problem dealing with ACC.

However, even having a clear case it took 12 months. Also, you have to do most of the work yourself (analysing MRI and CT scan reports etc) despite having a very experienced case manager and even then it's "taken its toll" he's wrung out and isn't totally finished yet.

[Edbear]

According to Edbears posts though, it's not a problem dealing with ACC.

However, even having a clear case it took 12 months. Also, you have to do most of the work yourself (analysing MRI and CT scan reports etc) despite having a very experienced case manager and even then it's "taken its toll" he's wrung out and isn't totally finished yet.

Yeah. It's been a steep learning curve and knowing what I have learned it would be far easier now. Addressing the lump sum case, will be much more straight forward, now. Most of the stress was due to our financial situation, having no income for 2 years, and not knowing if you are ever going to get anything makes it very hard. I had to work far too hard on my business in an effort to get something we could live on.

Having zero capital to start and relying on my wife's income, we have somehow managed to survive and build a business that is now paying the mortgage and most bills. It has certainly taken a toll on both of us and Mrs. Bear handed her notice in yesterday.

That's why I am happy to share with anyone if they are facing similar issues. ACC needs to go through the same process that IRD went through and be more open and sympathetic.

Even the best case manager is limited to the information they have and there were discrepancies in the Dr's. reports and incomplete evidence that I had to identify and bring to her attention. The whole case came about after a visit with my surgeon where he gave me a contradicting opinion to the Dr. Using the new information l was able go back to ACC and request a late review.

[Zedder]

Yeah. It's been a steep learning curve and knowing what I have learned it would be far easier now. Addressing the lump sum case, will be much more straight forward, now. Most of the stress was due to our financial situation, having no income for 2 years, and not knowing if you are ever going to get anything makes it very hard. I had to work far too hard on my business in an effort to get something we could live on.

Having zero capital to start and relying on my wife's income, we have somehow managed to survive and build a business that is now paying the mortgage and most bills. It has certainly taken a toll on both of us and Mrs. Bear handed her notice in yesterday.

That's why I am happy to share with anyone if they are facing similar issues. ACC needs to go through the same process that IRD went through and be more open and sympathetic.

Even the best case manager is limited to the information they have and there were discrepancies in the Dr's. reports and incomplete evidence that I had to identify and bring to her attention. The whole case came about after a visit with my surgeon where he gave me a contradicting opinion to the Dr. Using the new information l was able go back to ACC and request a late review.

Good on you for wanting to help out.

My point though is about how wrong you were when you stated "NZ's ACC system is the best in the world" and if it's the envy of people in other countries then either they're deluded or bluntly haven't had to put up with the crap the ACC ripoff merchants put a person through.

[avgas]

A key point with ACC is not to ever give up and go away. I made sure they knew I wasn't going to quit and that I had nothing to lose by pursuing it to the end. They were forced to take it seriously, especially when it became clear I knew the legislation and could relate to them on their own terms. Plus having the support of my surgeon, one who is used, and very well respected, by ACC for surgery and clinical assessments.

After pressure from people to get a lawyer, I tried a lawyer who was supposed to be an expert in ACC matters. He stuffed up and caused a two month delay, so I ditched him and did it on my own. Far cheaper and quicker! :yes:
Yeah but Ed, we shouldn't have to HACK the system to get treated!
We are not talking about some private health insurance - we are talking about NZ Government Health and Injury Cover. aka ACC.
ACC is the reason why we can't sue, and why everyone is covered.

It shouldn't require lawyers - it should require doctors.
It shouldn't require pursuit - it should require rehabilitation.
People should only have to pay for private medical attention because they don't like public hospitals or they want something that nothing to do with an injury.

This is the equivalent to taking the local library to court.
The system is there to treat the sick and injured...........not mistreat them.

[mashman]

Good on you for wanting to help out.

My point though is about how wrong you were when you stated "NZ's ACC system is the best in the world" and if it's the envy of people in other countries then either they're deluded or bluntly haven't had to put up with the crap the ACC ripoff merchants put a person through.

Meh. I reckon the NHS was better than ACC and the NHS was, erm, fraught with "problems". It's just another system that provides cover to a budget. Fuckin madness. :rofl:@envy. People need to know for their to be any envy. The Scandanvians probably laugh at ACC etc...

[Zedder]

Meh. I reckon the NHS was better than ACC and the NHS was, erm, fraught with "problems". It's just another system that provides cover to a budget. Fuckin madness. :rofl:@envy. People need to know for their to be any envy. The Scandanvians probably laugh at ACC etc...

The poor old NHS alright. Yep, going on what I know of the Scandy system it does seem to be at the top in terms of public health.

[Edbear]

If you have an accident and smash your back, ACC is unbeatable! I shudder to think how much my own accident cost and there was no delay in my treatment, no questions about insurance, and nothing was mentioned about costs. I got the absolute best of treatment, nothing was too much.

My surgeon is one of the best in the world and home care was anything I needed or asked for. Especially in the USA were people astonished at the system we have here.

Unfortunately, as with any Publicly funded health system, it's the long term treatment that's the issue.

[Katman]

Unfortunately, as with any Publicly funded health system, it's the long term treatment that's the issue.

Along with the means to rip that system off.

[Zedder]

If you have an accident and smash your back, ACC is unbeatable! I shudder to think how much my own accident cost and there was no delay in my treatment, no questions about insurance, and nothing was mentioned about costs. I got the absolute best of treatment, nothing was too much.

My surgeon is one of the best in the world and home care was anything I needed or asked for. Especially in the USA were people astonished at the system we have here.

Unfortunately, as with any Publicly funded health system, it's the long term treatment that's the issue.

Of course you got the absolute best of treatment, it's funded multiple times. Wake up man!

[Ocean1]

The poor old NHS alright. Yep, going on what I know of the Scandy system it does seem to be at the top in terms of public health.

You're comparing an apple to a complete orange tree.

National health in the UK is free to the end user, don't matter what's wrong or who caused it, they don't fund accident injuries any different to any other health need. Both the Govt and individuals retain the right to sue for damages, which both sometimes do. The exercise merely serves to illustrate the futility of trying to fund accident treatment retrospectively through the courts, it invariably costs more than the damages amount to. Which is exactly the situation with the US's almost exclusively privately owned system: neither work very well at all in paying for accident treatment.

Our health system is only partly publicly funded, when it was first set up the hope was to copy most of the best bits of Europe's better performing public health systems. However, most GP's didn't want to work for the govt, so primary health care remains a collection of privately owned businesses. Publicly subsidised businesses, of course. Which I suspect is where your later comment re multiple payments comes from?

ACC was a later invention, and it remains a funding model the rest of the world indeed tries to copy. For good reason, much as we bleat about it ACC is more cost effective than just about any alternative you can find.

Don't get me wrong, I'm as pissed about ACC's recent lack of honesty and loss of integrity as anyone else. The thing is, most of that is driven not by some catch-up to a fully funded model, it's caused by scope creep, the ever expanding range of services and treatments ACC agree, under the incessant barrage of public (and private) demand to fund. And, of course faced with those extra costs and little extra funding you're faced with a choice: They can limit who they fund, which is untenable in NZ, or they can limit access to the whole range. Which is what you're seeing now.

[Zedder]

You're comparing an apple to a complete orange tree.

National health in the UK is free to the end user, don't matter what's wrong or who caused it, they don't fund accident injuries any different to any other health need. Both the Govt and individuals retain the right to sue for damages, which both sometimes do. The exercise merely serves to illustrate the futility of trying to fund accident treatment retrospectively through the courts, it invariably costs more than the damages amount to. Which is exactly the situation with the US's almost exclusively privately owned system: neither work very well at all in paying for accident treatment.

Our health system is only partly publicly funded, when it was first set up the hope was to copy most of the best bits of Europe's better performing public health systems. However, most GP's didn't want to work for the govt, so primary health care remains a collection of privately owned businesses. Publicly subsidised businesses, of course. Which I suspect is where your later comment re multiple payments comes from?

ACC was a later invention, and it remains a funding model the rest of the world indeed tries to copy. For good reason, much as we bleat about it ACC is more cost effective than just about any alternative you can find.

Don't get me wrong, I'm as pissed about ACC's recent lack of honesty and loss of integrity as anyone else. The thing is, most of that is driven not by some catch-up to a fully funded model, it's caused by scope creep, the ever expanding range of services and treatments ACC agree, under the incessant barrage of public (and private) demand to fund. And, of course faced with those extra costs and little extra funding you're faced with a choice: They can limit who they fund, which is untenable in NZ, or they can limit access to the whole range. Which is what you're seeing now.

Yep, I was indeed comparing apples to orange trees. I was agreeing with mashman about the NHS which always seems to bumble along unlike the Scandy countries which are very sorted out. ACC though is a whole different kettle of fish indeed.

[jasonu]

Especially in the USA were people astonished at the system we have here.
.

Not quite. When you tell the yanks about the 'free' public healthcare system they are astonished. They are less astonished when you explain where the funding for the 'free' system comes from ie acc levies on your vehicle rego, employer levies etc. Free to you when you are getting the care but a good proportion of us UnZedders are paying for it indirectly.

[mashman]

Yep, I was indeed comparing apples to orange trees. I was agreeing with mashman about the NHS which always seems to bumble along unlike the Scandy countries which are very sorted out. ACC though is a whole different kettle of fish indeed.

NHS, ACC, Private, Private/Public etc... all "different" models that can supposedly work. To an extent, they all do exactly the same thing. The only things that are really different are the parameters of cover and funding models. They all churn out fixed people after all. The parameters of cover and funding models are becoming the core of the business, not the fixing of people... which means that people are going to get fucked over, because that's how it translates innit. We all have story's. Something is broken.

[Edbear]

od reason, much as we bleat about it ACC is more cost effective than just about any alternative you can find.

Don't get me wrong, I'm as pissed about ACC's recent lack of honesty and loss of integrity as anyone else. The thing is, most of that is driven not by some catch-up to a fully funded model, it's caused by scope creep, the ever expanding range of services and treatments ACC agree, under the incessant barrage of public (and private) demand to fund. And, of course faced with those extra costs and little extra funding you're faced with a choice: They can limit who they fund, which is untenable in NZ, or they can limit access to the whole range. Which is what you're seeing now.


Not quite. When you tell the yanks about the 'free' public healthcare system they are astonished. They are less astonished when you explain where the funding for the 'free' system comes from ie acc levies on your vehicle rego, employer levies etc. Free to you when you are getting the care but a good proportion of us UnZedders are paying for it indirectly.


NHS, ACC, Private, Private/Public etc... all "different" models that can supposedly work. To an extent, they all do exactly the same thing. The only things that are really different are the parameters of cover and funding models. They all churn out fixed people after all. The parameters of cover and funding models are becoming the core of the business, not the fixing of people... which means that people are going to get fucked over, because that's how it translates innit. We all have story's. Something is broken.

However it's funded, it's funded by taxes, either from the general taxes or specific taxes. The public fund the service. As Ocean1 points out, everyone wants everything for free, provided by a mysterious Government fund that gets money from trees.

Reality is that NZ has a shrinking tax base along with greatly increasing costs. Without immigration and overseas investment we are going to go backwards very quickly. Scandinavia is having funding issues as well. England is practically broke and too feudally fragmented to get its act together. The USA is an absolute shambles, financially, and Australia is having issues despite the far larger tax base.

There are things that need addressing here for sure, but I challenge anyone to seriously look into the issues of Government funding and make workable suggestions. Levies on users is open to examination at least and most think it's a fairer way of funding.

[mashman]

There are things that need addressing here for sure, but I challenge anyone to seriously look into the issues of Government funding and make workable suggestions. Levies on users is open to examination at least and most think it's a fairer way of funding.

Ooooo, oo, oo, I know what we could do. However, I don't believe that user pays is the way to go... like most things in life, it's cheaper when you buy as a group.

[Zedder]

NHS, ACC, Private, Private/Public etc... all "different" models that can supposedly work. To an extent, they all do exactly the same thing. The only things that are really different are the parameters of cover and funding models. They all churn out fixed people after all. The parameters of cover and funding models are becoming the core of the business, not the fixing of people... which means that people are going to get fucked over, because that's how it translates innit. We all have story's. Something is broken.

No disagreeement from me there masho.

[Zedder]

However it's funded, it's funded by taxes, either from the general taxes or specific taxes. The public fund the service. As Ocean1 points out, everyone wants everything for free, provided by a mysterious Government fund that gets money from trees.

Reality is that NZ has a shrinking tax base along with greatly increasing costs. Without immigration and overseas investment we are going to go backwards very quickly. Scandinavia is having funding issues as well. England is practically broke and too feudally fragmented to get its act together. The USA is an absolute shambles, financially, and Australia is having issues despite the far larger tax base.

There are things that need addressing here for sure, but I challenge anyone to seriously look into the issues of Government funding and make workable suggestions. Levies on users is open to examination at least and most think it's a fairer way of funding.

It's not a case of people wanting something for nothing at all. There are getting bloody well charged for it through taxation and levies. means.

Here's a radical idea, Government should get more paid employment organised for people. It seems to be the way things should work.

[Edbear]

Ooooo, oo, oo, I know what we could do. However, I don't believe that user pays is the way to go... like most things in life, it's cheaper when you buy as a group.

For sure. That's why I suggest looking into the issues of Government funding and seeing for ourselves what those are. It may be that the Government is doing the best it can in the political arena, but I have found that ministers are usually open to questions and suggestions.

What is clearly obvious is that regardless of financial issues, I couldn't fault in any way the treatment I got when I crashed. From the response of the immediate witnesses to the ambulance and fire services, to the emergency department, and right through to rehabilitation, the care was immediate and thorough. I didn't have to even think about money or insurance. The wheels fell off after a year on weekly compo when someone seemed to decide I needed to go. Even then, the accident remained covered by ACC and I could still go and see my surgeon or get any other ongoing treatment.

Now they have agreed to reinstate my weekly compo, I can get more funding for physiotherapy and be reassessed for fitness.

I had my first assessment on Thursday which was a shock! A computer calculates your strength and endurance by reading a set of exercises, and bases it on age, height and weight. Then prints out a chart giving you a percentage reading compared to a normal person.

So a normal person of my age, etc. who is fully fit and functional is rated 100%. My rating is 1%! Yup, one percent! I am barely functioning and one small step from a wheelchair. He hadn't seen anyone in memory with such an extensive surgery and fusion, or as low as I was, despite running rehab and physio centre's here and in Australia. Using all of my body, I could reach 7%, but separately, I registered 1%.

When asked how on earth I am standing up and walking, I just say I won't consider the alternative as an option. So with strong meds and stubborn willpower, I get up and function.

[Katman]

So with strong meds and a voracious addiction to feed, I get up and function.

Fixed that for you Ed.

[bucket boy]

The problem with those test are if you are a week person before crash you even a bigger sook afterwards.And 1 percent able, you do realize Acc counts a tet or para as 80 percent impaired.

[Ocean1]

Ooooo, oo, oo, I know what we could do. However, I don't believe that user pays is the way to go... like most things in life, it's cheaper when you buy as a group.

We don't have a user pays system.

And bulk buying, (and parallel importing) is exactly how Farmac manages to buy a metric shitload of drugs more than their budget would normally run to. In spite of significant pressure from off-shore administrations, (mostly US) and legal threats from manufacturers.

[husaberg]

We don't have a user pays system.

And bulk buying, (and parallel importing) is exactly how Farmac manages to buy a metric shitload of drugs more than their budget would normally run to. In spite of significant pressure from off-shore administrations, (mostly US) and legal threats from manufacturers.

Pharmac is not the best example Ocean due to the fact the pharmac is going to be hamstrung soon to protect the interests of the large pharmaceutical companies. This is happening as part of a deal done rather covertly. In the name the "Free Market" lol.
http://www.healthpolicyjrnl.com/article/S0168-8510%2813%2900210-8/abstract

http://www.citizenstrade.org/ctc/blog/2011/10/22/leaked-trans-pacific-fta-texts-reveal-u-s-undermining-access-to-medicine/

[Edbear]

The problem with those test are if you are a week person before crash you even a bigger sook afterwards.And 1 percent able, you do realize Acc counts a tet or para as 80 percent impaired.

It will be interesting to see how ACC take the report. It's not the opinion of a medical person, but a computer program which simply measures strength and endurance against a set of parameters. One of the tests, I couldn't do at all. Another simple test was how many times I could raise my arms straight up above my head. I managed three.

The rest of his report will cover other issues relating to my physical state.

[bucket boy]

lucky it wasnt a typing test.

[Ocean1]

Pharmac is not the best example Ocean due to the fact the pharmac is going to be hamstrung soon to protect the interests of the large pharmaceutical companies. This is happening as part of a deal done rather covertly. In the name the "Free Market" lol.
http://www.healthpolicyjrnl.com/article/S0168-8510%2813%2900210-8/abstract

http://www.citizenstrade.org/ctc/blog/2011/10/22/leaked-trans-pacific-fta-texts-reveal-u-s-undermining-access-to-medicine/

Aye, I know. And it'll hurt.

But it's not a move towards a "free market". You can tell, someone's market options are being restricted, which is a dead giveaway. In spite of the American's view on the subject, a free market is one where anyone is free to buy from or sell to anyone else.

Would serve them right if we cobbled up some sort of cartel amongst the southern hemisphere buyers and put some of their own practices into effect to our advantage.

Or even ask to see their books, to ascertain exactly what they're charging their larger American and European clients. Reckon they'd oblige?

[husaberg]

Aye, I know. And it'll hurt.

But it's not a move towards a "free market". You can tell, someone's market options are being restricted, which is a dead giveaway. In spite of the American's view on the subject, a free market is one where anyone is free to buy from or sell to anyone else.

Would serve them right if we cobbled up some sort of cartel amongst the southern hemisphere buyers and put some of their own practices into effect to our advantage.

Or even ask to see their books, to ascertain exactly what they're charging their larger American and European clients. Reckon they'd oblige?

Cartel of Opec springs to mind lol
they used the same reasoning to get rid of NZ Co-OP marketing with the Dairy Board.
The used the Meat industry as a model of the free market helping the producers get great returns lol

[mashman]

We don't have a user pays system.

And bulk buying, (and parallel importing) is exactly how Farmac manages to buy a metric shitload of drugs more than their budget would normally run to. In spite of significant pressure from off-shore administrations, (mostly US) and legal threats from manufacturers.

It was a response to a comment by Ed, not me expressing how I see ACC working. Although given there's ACC on fuel and "charges" applied on businesses groups/people groups at different rates, one could argue the case for ACC being part user pays. Either way, the core doesn't seem to be, fix 'em, anymore.

Wasn't knocking bulk buying and am fully aware that it takes place... in quantities more than 10 sometimes too.

[nodrog]

lucky it wasnt a typing test.

its past your bedtime.

[nzspokes]

lucky it wasnt a typing test.

Yes you would have failed.

[bucket boy]

its past your bedtime.

Just about.

[Edbear]

The problem with those test are if you are a week person before crash you even a bigger sook afterwards.And 1 percent able, you do realize Acc counts a tet or para as 80 percent impaired.


It will be interesting to see how ACC take the report. It's not the opinion of a medical person, but a computer program which simply measures strength and endurance against a set of parameters. One of the tests, I couldn't do at all. Another simple test was how many times I could raise my arms straight up above my head. I managed three.

The rest of his report will cover other issues relating to my physical state.

I have now had my occupational assessment and it basically mirrored the physical assessment. I am not capable of returning to my pre - accident work so will be receiving the full two years back pay. ACC sent me a letter outlining the amount and how it is assessed. Naturally I asked for a review as the calculations don't match up with the legislation. However, even if I only get this amount it will be enough.

The case manager for my lump sum payout has agreed to a review in order for me to present my case to the legal team, challenging the criteria for permanent impairment. This is particularly important as it affects everyone claiming lump sum compensation. If they accept my argument it will make a huge difference to the claim process. This is something I will pursue in the interests of everyone, beyond my own situation.

I am hoping to have my case settled by the end of next week.

[Katman]

I have now had my occupational assessment and it basically mirrored the physical assessment. I am not capable of returning to my pre - accident work so will be receiving the full two years back pay. ACC sent me a letter outlining the amount and how it is assessed. Naturally I asked for a review as the calculations don't match up with the legislation. However, even if I only get this amount it will be enough.

The case manager for my lump sum payout has agreed to a review in order for me to present my case to the legal team, challenging the criteria for permanent impairment. This is particularly important as it affects everyone claiming lump sum compensation. If they accept my argument it will make a huge difference to the claim process. This is something I will pursue in the interests of everyone, beyond my own situation.

I am hoping to have my case settled by the end of next week.

And yet two soldiers permanently disabled/disfigured through no fault of their own can't get a cent in compensation from the government.

The system is fucked.

[Edbear]

And yet two soldiers permanently disabled/disfigured through no fault of their own can't get a cent in compensation from the government.

The system is fucked.

I think that is the Army they are disputing with and the Govt. is looking at the legislation in light of their cases. IIRC they did receive ACC support. The case is more about the fact that they are classed as employees of the Army and where an employer's responsibility lies.

The problem with that for soldiers is their role and risks associated with it. Many people think it's not the same as "normal" employment.

[Katman]

I think that is the Army they are disputing with and the Govt. is looking at the legislation in light of their cases. IIRC they did receive ACC support. The case is more about the fact that they are classed as employees of the Army and where an employer's responsibility lies.

The problem with that for soldiers is their role and risks associated with it. Many people think it's not the same as "normal" employment.

It was Jonathon Coleman himself who ruled out offering compensation yesterday.

[Zedder]

And yet two soldiers permanently disabled/disfigured through no fault of their own can't get a cent in compensation from the government.

The system is fucked.

And the people running it are scum.

[avgas]

And the people running it are scum.
Corporate Scum.

It's funny - in a free market, the market comes to you. In a false market - the government guides them to you.

Over here there is a big whoo-haa about health insurance. As far as I can see - the health insurance industry is the biggest scam I have seen. It has changed the whole industry to one of over-pricing. Hospitals charge you $170 for paracetamol.....why? - because they only get paid 1/10th of that by the insurance company.
Which raises the question: Why don't they charge $17 and the insurance pays that amount? Because the government says the insurance co.s should get a discount.

So everything is 10 times more expensive than it needs to be......just to cover the costs if the insurance co. pays.......wtf

[Edbear]

An update.

I was granted a rehabilitation programme after assessment by The Pain Clinic found I was extremely weak and relying on heavy use of painkillers.

How weak? I couldn't do a situp, a pressup, a squat or maintain my body level in a test of back strength. Their assessment confirmed another test that assessed me at 1% of what a man my age and build should normally be capable of. Only my grip strength was near normal.

After 6 weeks I have made zero progress but the guy is not phased at that as I was told it would take a year or so to note any significant improvement. My bicep curls are only using 2kg dumbells, 3kg was too heavy for my back and neck. The rest of the exercises are using 10kg weights and I do 10 reps for each exercise.

My rehab case manager is very supportive which is not what I expected either. I thought ACC would be pushing to get rid of me as fast as possible but not so it would seem. She, my case manager, has also agreed to keep subsidising my Osteotherapy. I get travel allowance of course for the 3x per week I go for the physio. 29c per k.

The Doctor has doubled my meds for the Cushing's disease as I was getting extremely tired from the physio and after a week I am feeling a lot better. Cushing's is a muscle wasting illness that has some nasty symptoms and interferes with digestion meaning I don't get what I should from food. I have steroid injections every 3 weeks. My adrenal glands are burnt out. So my illness directly works against the physiotherapy and I am hoping the physio wins the fight.

Unfortunately, the physio has meant I have had to maintain my level of painkillers at the maximum, supplementing with Diclophenac twice a day. I have to rest every afternoon or suffer migraines from overwork.

Running 2 companies is hard going and my wife has been invaluable since she retired and joined me in the business.

I am in discussions with a high profile corporate business adviser who would normally be out of my reach. A fortuitous chance meeting. He has been doing it for 25 years and is adviser to some very high profile companies. He was very complimentary at what I have achieved by myself and is confident I will attract the attention of investors to help take the business to the next level. I have already been offered a significant sum but I am being cautious about borrowing and about who I want investing.

So I have been very encouraged and feel very confident about the future of both of my companies.

[FJRider]

....... :clap::banana:

What HE said ... :2thumbsup:

[Edbear]

What HE said ... :2thumbsup:

Thanks mate, I am nothing if not trying. ..

[nzspokes]

Our experience with ACC long term has been quite good. Cant really complain at all about it.

[FJRider]

And yet two soldiers permanently disabled/disfigured through no fault of their own can't get a cent in compensation from the government.

The system is fucked.


Is this what you refer too .. ??

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/hawkes-bay-today/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503462&objectid=11174984



As usual ... you leave a few important facts out of your statement ...



BOTH brothers received ACC payments and other entitlements, but have never been compensated by the Government.

A select committee inquiry in 2003 recognised the brothers' plight and said they deserved compensation above their legal entitlements. However, the Government at the time said there was no legal basis for compensation in addition to the ACC payments they had received.

Parliament's Maori affairs select committee recommended in June that ex-gratia payments for the brothers be authorised.

Even serving military aren't entitled to more than what they are legally entitled to under current legislation.

Military personal still receive FULL pay ... even "Off sick" or unable to work. Few Civilian businesses do this for their staff ....

[FJRider]

Thanks mate, I am nothing if not trying. ..

More trying to some .. than others ... :laugh:



I've had a few battles with ACC myself.

[unstuck]

Only my grip strength was near normal.

.

Been training hard have you.:tugger:

[Edbear]

Been training hard have you.:tugger:

I wuz tired when I posted that. .. I should have known. .. :bleh:

Apparently your grip strength is the last to go. Not sure why.

[Sharry]

Great news Ed. You have surely had a good battle and deserve the outcome :clap:

Although the motocycle levies are a different story ad i dissagree with them I cannot compain about the help I recieved from ACC, with the home help, equiptment and income replacement. Now they accepted my claims for assessment for disablility and treatment injury.

Can't say as much about the DHB support after my ankle fusment 4 weeks ago, they may as well given me nothing at all.

[Shaun Harris]

My case has been with a Lawyer for nearly one month now ED, I was put into the 2 hard bin by acc as far as 3 lawyers have said so far hence my action with taking on a lawyer now to finally settle all this. I ONLY received $115 in the hand for nealy 4 years, hence the situation I found myself in 18 months or so ago and have been a tax payer here for years and years and lots of it due to the work I have always done and the hours of it.

[Edbear]

Great news Ed. You have surely had a good battle and deserve the outcome :clap:

Although the motocycle levies are a different story ad i dissagree with them I cannot compain about the help I recieved from ACC, with the home help, equiptment and income replacement. Now they accepted my claims for assessment for disablility and treatment injury.

Can't say as much about the DHB support after my ankle fusment 4 weeks ago, they may as well given me nothing at all.

I have been hearing some good stories lately about ACC, and I certainly can't complain now.

Sorry you're not getting the same from the DHB, though.


My case has been with a Lawyer for nearly one month now ED, I was put into the 2 hard bin by acc as far as 3 lawyers have said so far hence my action with taking on a lawyer now to finally settle all this. I ONLY received $115 in the hand for nealy 4 years, hence the situation I found myself in 18 months or so ago and have been a tax payer here for years and years and lots of it due to the work I have always done and the hours of it.

Does the fact that your accident was overseas have a bearing on it?

[Sharry]

Does the fact that your accident was overseas have a bearing on it?

If the accident is in NZ anyone, including non residents, are eligible for ACC support.
If the accident is off shore then everyone, including nz residents, are not eligible for ACC support when they return to NZ.

I do not agree with this. I think it stinks that a non tax payer can get full support from ACC while here temporarily and a New Zealander who has paid ACC levies and taxes gets no support if the accident happened overseas.

[Shaun Harris]

I have been hearing some good stories lately about ACC, and I certainly can't complain now.

Sorry you're not getting the same from the DHB, though.



Does the fact that your accident was overseas have a bearing on it?







None what so ever ED

[Shaun Harris]

If the accident is in NZ anyone, including non residents, are eligible for ACC support.
If the accident is off shore then everyone, including nz residents, are not eligible for ACC support when they return to NZ.

I do not agree with this. I think it stinks that a non tax payer can get full support from ACC while here temporarily and a New Zealander who has paid ACC levies and taxes gets no support if the accident happened overseas.




Not correct Sharry, if injured overseas, nz citizens are entitled to acc support as we should be. A Kiwi gets no support through ACC "over seas" if injured, My Personell med insurance took care of all the cost over seas.

[Edbear]

None what so ever ED

I hope your lawyer does a good job for you!

[Shaun Harris]

I hope your lawyer does a good job for you!




Base rate per week today is $430-00 and that is a huge difference to my pathetic $115-00

[Shaun Harris]

some of my case with ACC is starting to make a lot more sense

[Shaun Harris]

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search


A Loss Attributing Qualifying Company (LAQC) is a company which, by New Zealand law, must pass on any losses to its shareholders. The shareholders can then offset these losses against their personal income.

Legislation passed in December 2010 made changes to the rules for qualifying companies (QCs) and loss attributing qualifying companies (LAQCs). LAQCs aren't able to attribute losses to shareholders for income years starting on or after 1 April 2011 and there are no new QC or LAQC elections. Existing LAQCs automatically become QCs (without the ability to attribute losses) at the start of the income year that begins on or after 1 April 2011. LAQCs also may elect either to remain a QC or can transition into a Look-through company (LTC) at no tax cost in certain circumstances or can also transition into another tax entity, such as a partnership, limited partnership or sole tradership with no tax cost[1]











Now some one with more educated brain power than me explain this to me, my company established in 2004 was NOT a ( LAQC ) company apparently, and as I had the company set up by an accountant, I would have thought that would have been automatically taken care of.

[FJRider]

Now some one with more educated brain power than me explain this to me, my company established in 2004 was NOT a ( LAQC ) company apparently, and as I had the company set up by an accountant, I would have thought that would have been automatically taken care of.

You are accusing them of cheating .. ??? :shifty: :scratch:

[Shaun Harris]

You are accusing them of cheating .. ??? :shifty: :scratch:





After 4 hours of reading my case history file today and very supportive advise from a man who knows the system, I DEFFINATELY reckon they owe me for 237 weeks INCOME not paid as it should have been! Which led to my bankruptcy and loss of family home and all my personel possesions to try and survive not to mention the mental stress this has put me and my family through whilst trying to recover from a clearly documented brain injury due to my TT crash as well as no referals to any specialist to have inserts made for my different leg length now of 11mm which I now believe is Long term cause behind the "massive" pain I have in my back.

I can see how they came to the decision though, but that decision came down to confusement and very very poor management by the person accessing my case .