Tax cuts explained?

[Badcat]

TAXES
Lets put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand. Suppose that every day, ten people go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:
The first four (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh $7.
The eighth $12.
The ninth $18.
The tenth (the richest) would pay $59.
So, thats what they decided to do.
They ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a problem. "Since you are all such good customers," the owner said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20."
So, now dinner for the ten only cost $80. The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So, the first four were unaffected, they would still eat for free.
What about the other six, the paying customers? How could they divvy up the $20 windfall so that everyone would get their fair share?
The six paying customers realised that $20 divided by six is $3.33. If they subtracted that from everybodys share, then the fifth and the sixth would each end up being 'PAID' to eat their meal.
So, the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each persons bill by roughly the same amount, and proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay. And so:
The fifth, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% savings).
The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28% savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).
Each of the six was better off than before. The first four continued to eat for free. Once outside the restaurant, they began to compare their savings.
"I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth, pointing to the tenth diner "but they got $10!"
"Yeah, thats right," exclaimed the fifth. "I only saved a dollar, too. Its unfair that they got ten times more than me!"
"Thats true!!" shouted the seventh. "Why should they get $10 back when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"
"Wait a minute," yelled the first four in unison. "We didnt get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"
The nine surrounded and beat up the tenth diner.
The next night the tenth diner didnt show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without number ten. When it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didnt have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!
That, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up at the table any more. There are lots of good restaurants in Europe and the Caribbean.

[Skyryder]

The analogy between Tax Cuts and group eating out at their favourite reaturant does not work on the following basis

1 Every one pays tax. Even the first four.
2 While the richest pay the most, they also have the most tax breaks.
3 As a result of 2 they actually pay the least and in some cases even less than the first four.
4 The reason the 10 (richest) don't turn up to the diner has nothing to do with the cost of the food but the labour that produces it.

Conclusion. The G8 will still be talking about third world poverty at their next conference because it's in the western's buisness interests to keep it that way.


Skyryder

[Skyryder]

The analogy between Tax Cuts and group eating out at their favourite reaturant does not work on the following basis

1 Every one pays tax. Even the first four.
2 While the richest pay the most, they also have the most tax breaks.
3 As a result of 2 they actually pay the least and in some cases even less than the first four.
4 The reason the 10 (richest) don't turn up to the diner has nothing to do with the cost of the food but the labour that produces it.

Conclusion. The G8 will still be talking about third world poverty at their next conference because it's in the western's buisness interests to keep it that way.


Skyryder


PS I forgot about

# 5 If Brash gets in those of us who are not part of the group dinner (#11 out) will be paying more because the Resturant owner will be wanting to make up the difference for the discount he has given to the 10 customers.

His operating costs will be going up along with ours.

Skyryder

[DingDong]

Lets say, there are only 100 people who dont pay to eat in NZ...I kick four dole-bludgers arses (because they attack me for not paying enough tax) and I'll end up paying 4% less tax... :yes:

Answer me this... would communisium (sp) be better?

[TwoSeven]

TAXES
So, now dinner for the ten only cost $80. The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So, the first four were unaffected, they would still eat for free.
What about the other six, the paying customers? How could they divvy up the $20 windfall so that everyone would get their fair share?
The six paying customers realised that $20 divided by six is $3.33. If they subtracted that from everybodys share, then the fifth and the sixth would each end up being 'PAID' to eat their meal.


This calculation is wrong.

Their meal has been discounted by 20%. So each persons new fee is 20% less than it was.

1 = 0.80
2 = 2.40
3 = 5.60
4 = 9.60
5 = 14.40
6 = 47.20

The first 4 have nothing to do with the equation, since they originally paid nothing and are not part of the economic equation.

If this were correctly done as tax cuts, then it would be the same as giving every tax band a 20% reduction of its original amount.

The old tax rate was:

00,000 - 38,000 = 19.5%
38,001 - 60,000 = 33%
60,001 - upwards = 39%

The new tax rate would be.

00,000 - 38,000 = 15.6%
38,001 - 60,000 = 26.4%
60,000 - upwards = 31.2%

According to These (http://www.treasury.govt.nz/budget2004/taxpayers) figures the average single person working in new zealand is paying the lowest tax rate.

[Badcat]

i was sent it.
maybe it's US tax rates.
i thought it was thought provoking...
that proves it - i AM full of shit..
k

[ajturbo]

T There are lots of good restaurants in Europe and the Caribbean.

found a couple a great ones in Key West also:whistle:

[TwoSeven]

i was sent it.
maybe it's US tax rates.
i thought it was thought provoking...
that proves it - i AM full of shit..
k

No.

Wouldnt it just mean we really dont want to live in the US :)

[Ixion]

Lets say, there are only 100 people who dont pay to eat in NZ...I kick four dole-bludgers arses (because they attack me for not paying enough tax) and I'll end up paying 4% less tax... :yes:

Answer me this... would communisium (sp) be better?

Of course it would! I'm a communist y'know.That speaks for itself.

[Big Dave]

I'm a communist y'know.That speaks for itself.

No - it only speaks for the state. You're not allowed to speak for yourself.

[Devil]

2 While the richest pay the most, they also have the most tax breaks.

Explain please. :confused:

[bane]

apologise if all done b4... Note: the info contained within is not necessarily the view of the poster :devil2:

You've heard the cry in the last couple of weeks: "It's just a tax cut
for the rich!"

But what does that statement really mean? The following
explanation may help. (or more likely just piss people off :rofl:)

Suppose that every night, ten men go out for dinner. The
bill for all ten comes to $100. They decide to pay their
bill the way we pay our taxes, and it goes like this:

The first four men (lowest income) paid nothing
The fifth paid $1
The sixth $3
The seventh $7
The eighth $12
The ninth $18
The tenth man (highest earner) paid $59


All 10 are used to the arrangement, until one day, the
owner says: "Since you are all such good customers, I'm going to
reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20."

So now their dinner for ten only costs $80. The group still decides
to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. The first four men are
unaffected. They will still eat for free.

But how should the other six, the paying customers, divvy up the $20
windfall so that everyone would get his "fair share"?

They realise that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtract
that from everybody's share, then the fifth and sixth men would each
end up being paid to eat. The restaurateur suggests reducing each
man's bill by roughly the same percentage, thus:
The fifth man pays nothing (like the first four),instead of $1(100%saving)
The sixth pays $2 instead of $3 (33% saving)
The seventh pays $5 instead of $7 (28% saving)
The eighth pays $9 instead of $12 (25% saving)
The ninth pays $14 instead of $18 (22% saving)
The tenth pays $49 instead of $59 (16% saving)

Each of the six are better off, and the first four continue to eat
for free, as now does the fifth - but outside the restaurant, the
men began to compare their savings.

" I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man. He
pointed to the tenth man "but he got $10!"

" That's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar
too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than me!"

" That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back
when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

" Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't
get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

The nine men then surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for dinner. The nine sat
down and ate without him, but when they came to pay the bill, they
discovered that they didn't have enough money between all of them to
meet even half of the bill!

Moral? Tax people too much, attack them for
being wealthy, and they just may not show up at the table anymore.

[idb]

apologise if all done b4... Note: the info contained within is not necessarily the view of the poster :devil2:

You've heard the cry in the last couple of weeks: "It's just a tax cut
for the rich!"

But what does that statement really mean? The following
explanation may help. (or more likely just piss people off :rofl:)

Suppose that every night, ten men go out for dinner. The
bill for all ten comes to $100. They decide to pay their
bill the way we pay our taxes, and it goes like this:

The first four men (lowest income) paid nothing
The fifth paid $1
The sixth $3
The seventh $7
The eighth $12
The ninth $18
The tenth man (highest earner) paid $59


All 10 are used to the arrangement, until one day, the
owner says: "Since you are all such good customers, I'm going to
reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20."

So now their dinner for ten only costs $80. The group still decides
to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. The first four men are
unaffected. They will still eat for free.

But how should the other six, the paying customers, divvy up the $20
windfall so that everyone would get his "fair share"?

They realise that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtract
that from everybody's share, then the fifth and sixth men would each
end up being paid to eat. The restaurateur suggests reducing each
man's bill by roughly the same percentage, thus:
The fifth man pays nothing (like the first four),instead of $1(100%saving)
The sixth pays $2 instead of $3 (33% saving)
The seventh pays $5 instead of $7 (28% saving)
The eighth pays $9 instead of $12 (25% saving)
The ninth pays $14 instead of $18 (22% saving)
The tenth pays $49 instead of $59 (16% saving)

Each of the six are better off, and the first four continue to eat
for free, as now does the fifth - but outside the restaurant, the
men began to compare their savings.

" I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man. He
pointed to the tenth man "but he got $10!"

" That's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar
too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than me!"

" That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back
when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

" Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't
get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

The nine men then surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for dinner. The nine sat
down and ate without him, but when they came to pay the bill, they
discovered that they didn't have enough money between all of them to
meet even half of the bill!

Moral? Tax people too much, attack them for
being wealthy, and they just may not show up at the table anymore.
Thank you.
Now hopefully I'll stop being beaten up at restaurants.

[Jantar]

Even without the reduction, the 10th man eventually gets pissed off and goes to eat at a different restaurant. Maybe one that's in Australia.

Tax cuts are the fairest means of ensuring that everyone shares the nation's prosperity.

[Coyote]

I can tell it's right wing propaganda, but somehow I agree with it :crazy:

[bane]

I can tell it's right wing propaganda, but somehow I agree with it :crazy:

no alarumba!... think of Finland

[Indiana_Jones]

lol Thank you for bring this up. Some people go "oh it's a cut for the rich"......I'm like, ummmm but they pay more tax and they earn more, so it's in preportion? :spudwhat:

-Indy

[Coyote]

lol Thank you for bring this up. Some people go "oh it's a cut for the rich"......I'm like, ummmm but they pay more tax and they earn more, so it's in preportion? :spudwhat:

-Indy
This is what I thought, I'm scared

[riffer]

This is what I thought, I'm scared

Don't be scared.

It's quite simple. Work hard - play hard.

You'll always get more out of life by putting in the extra effort, rather than waiting for it to fall in your lap.

The tax cuts are an incentive to put the extra effort in. Rather than what we have at the moment which is a system that penalises those that try to get ahead by working harder (or longer) than the average person.

[Skyryder]

This is on another thread here somewhere. It's all bullshit. If you are gullible enough to believe it then you deserve Brash and all that he stands for.

Skyryder

[James Deuce]

This is on another thread here somewhere. It's all bullshit. If you are gullible enough to believe it then you deserve Brash and all that he stands for.

Skyryder

If Labour get in, I'll be quitting my "high" paying job for one that grosses $35k so I can have more money in my hand. 3 Kids? Check. Working for Families Policy that drops all tax for Families with 3 or more kids earning less than $35k? Check.

Why bother working hard, when by getting a job in a gas station and doing the minimum I can maintain my current standard of living?

An extra $60 a week will help make up the difference in the price of petrol increases for commuting. Helen isn't offering that.

OTOH it's all just political rhetoric and nothing will change post-election, except that it will be still harder to be a single income, Pakeha family with bills. That is the only result of any election that I've been party to for the last 20 years that has consistently occurred. All taxation will stay at it's current level, except GST will go up to 15% to cover the shortfall in the various petrol levies, as people start using alternative and more efficient (read more time consuming, reducing the amount of time you spend with your family) forms of transport for commuting.

Labour lost my vote when they introduced "free" health care for under 6's. Yeah Right. I've never, ever not had to pay for a Doctor's visit, a perscription, and don't get me started on the $60 After Hours make you pay now that you get thrown out of Emergency with deathly sick children. Labour lied. Plain and simple.

[Skyryder]

If Labour get in, I'll be quitting my "high" paying job for one that grosses $35k so I can have more money in my hand. 3 Kids? Check. Working for Families Policy that drops all tax for Families with 3 or more kids earning less than $35k? Check.

Why bother working hard, when by getting a job in a gas station and doing the minimum I can maintain my current standard of living?

An extra $60 a week will help make up the difference in the price of petrol increases for commuting. Helen isn't offering that.

OTOH it's all just political rhetoric and nothing will change post-election, except that it will be still harder to be a single income, Pakeha family with bills. That is the only result of any election that I've been party to for the last 20 years that has consistently occurred. All taxation will stay at it's current level, except GST will go up to 15% to cover the shortfall in the various petrol levies, as people start using alternative and more efficient (read more time consuming, reducing the amount of time you spend with your family) forms of transport for commuting.

Labour lost my vote when they introduced "free" health care for under 6's. Yeah Right. I've never, ever not had to pay for a Doctor's visit, a perscription, and don't get me started on the $60 After Hours make you pay now that you get thrown out of Emergency with deathly sick children. Labour lied. Plain and simple.


Better start looking for a new job. And if the Nats get in consider your lucky if you keep the one you've got.

Skyryder

[James Deuce]

Better start looking for a new job. And if the Nats get in consider your lucky if you keep the one you've got.

Skyryder

There's no "luck" in keeping my job. It's simple supply and demand. If people don't want the company's services, I'll lose my job. If the company don't want my services I'll lose my job.

You are of course assuming you know how I vote too. You dodged the issue too. How does your conscience feel about publicly supporting a party that lies overtly and unapologetically?

[thehollowmen]

This is on another thread here somewhere. It's all bullshit. If you are gullible enough to believe it then you deserve Brash and all that he stands for.

Skyryder

That's not bullshit.
I'm not elegible for any handouts because I have earnt too much over the last few before uni.

I got put on a med that was $280 per week, and had I earnt less I could have got it subsidised to the cost of a prescription.

So I emptied two five grand savings accounts that I'd saved up towards a house. I took up a part time job. I can't get a house now, just can't afford it.

Thank god I'm not on it now. I just couldn't afford it and couldn't get it filled. And I got very sick and hospitalised and that's another story.

And I'm not going to forget that.

I'm looking at going overseas because soon my pay for my new job (in any place in NZ) is gonna be $40K+. And probably a lot more overseas.

Quite bluntly, I'm not happy that I have to spend three times what I was paying in rent on meds because somebody in a govt department thinks I earn to much because I worked hard, where my flatmate if they had the same problem would get it for pennies.

PS I think brash is an arsehole. I've met him, and I'm also I'm a bit left wing. But I prefer the 'hand up rather than a hand out' approach, and that means testing should be involved...

[SPman]

..........How does your conscience feel about publicly supporting a party that lies overtly and unapologetically?
Well, thats all the major parties dealt with!
Where to from here! :sherlock:

[James Deuce]

Well, thats all the major parties dealt with!
Where to from here! :sherlock:

Bring back McGillicuddy Serious!

[Sniper]

Im still confused

[thehollowmen]

Im still confused

oks..

For someone earning 36K with three kids, they pay lots more and get less in the pocket than someone earning 34K if they've got three kids.

People say 'oh this tax cut means if you earn over 100K you'll have an extra $2400 (but you might pay 33 cents in the dollar earnt to tax), but if you earn 10K you'll only get $240 and (you pay 25 c per dollar so less in tax too) oh so it is advantaging the rich ..."

what.. so people are complaining they want is if I earnt 10K I'd be entitled to an extra $2400 per year if tax cuts went through? Would I still be entitled to that $2400 if I earnt nothing?

O_o

Anyways I've just been told that nats are wanting to increase national debt by two billion doing this...

What has the extra tax money on petrol been going to. that 5c a litre was for 5 billion towards auckland roads, but it has gone up another 10 cents in tax because it is a proportion of the petrol cost.. so.. uh.. Where has the other 10 billion gone?

[Indiana_Jones]

Where has the other 10 billion gone?

Hand-outs? :D

-Indy

[Lou Girardin]

It seems that I need 2 or 3 kids by next April. Anyone got spares?
Or know a good plumber?

[kerryg]

It seems that I need 2 or 3 kids by next April. Anyone got spares?
Or know a good plumber?


In fact I do......are teenagers OK? :done:

[Lou Girardin]

In fact I do......are teenagers OK? :done:

Only if they're comatose.

[Oscar]

oks..

For someone earning 36K with three kids, they pay lots more and get less in the pocket than someone earning 34K if they've got three kids.

People say 'oh this tax cut means if you earn over 100K you'll have an extra $2400 (but you might pay 33 cents in the dollar earnt to tax), but if you earn 10K you'll only get $240 and (you pay 25 c per dollar so less in tax too) oh so it is advantaging the rich ..."

what.. so people are complaining they want is if I earnt 10K I'd be entitled to an extra $2400 per year if tax cuts went through? Would I still be entitled to that $2400 if I earnt nothing?

O_o

Anyways I've just been told that nats are wanting to increase national debt by two billion doing this...

What has the extra tax money on petrol been going to. that 5c a litre was for 5 billion towards auckland roads, but it has gone up another 10 cents in tax because it is a proportion of the petrol cost.. so.. uh.. Where has the other 10 billion gone?

The National Debt will not be increased, in fact it's been falling.

Dr. Cullen has a bad habit of underestimating the surplus, and this time he found some more just before the election...surprised?

All this crap about the rich getting a bigger tax break falls over on the premise that really poor people don't actually pay any tax...

[thehollowmen]

The National Debt will not be increased, in fact it's been falling.

Dr. Cullen has a bad habit of underestimating the surplus, and this time he found some more just before the election...surprised?

All this crap about the rich getting a bigger tax break falls over on the premise that really poor people don't actually pay any tax...

I wouldn't know if the people on benifits pay tax or not because I'll never be allowed one without taking a few years off first with a low income job.

Do house wives / husbands and students pay tax? they might not have an income.. I'm just asking it to be even and proportional for poor, middle class and rich. Imagine if the tables swung the other way and I asked them to pay the same tax as me? :rofl: the benifits wouldn't even cover it.

we have to look at these figures as percentages of income, not "oh but if he earns a million dollars he'll end up with an extra four hundred in his pocket and this is unfair because I only end up with 8 dollars in my pocket because I earn the average salary"

[Hooks]

Take your time and read carefully ... this is the best I've seen yet !! :devil2:



Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand. Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh $7.
The eighth $12.
The nineth $18
The tenth man (the wealthiest) would pay $59.


So, that's what they decided to do.The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve.

"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20."

So, now dinner for the ten only cost $80. The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes, with the poorest paying little to nothing and the wealthiest, the most. So, the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six, the paying customers? How could they divvy up the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his "fair share"? The six men realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being 'PAID' to eat their meal. So,the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out
the amounts each should pay. And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% savings).
The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28% savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).


Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

"I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man (the "wealthy" one) "but he got $10!"

"Yeah, that's right, "exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar,too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than me!"

"That's true!!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

Sound familiar?

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

Sound familiar?

So the nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next night the tenth man didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up at the table anymore. There are lots of good restaurants in Europe and the Caribbean

[Sniper]

Thanks hooks, I think I have seen t before but very good

[Storm]

Very very true. Thanks for that Hooks :)

[oldrider]

Good one. Have seen it before. A lot of people read it but they never "see" it. :rofl:

[MSTRS]

Suppose that every day, ten people go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do.

The ten drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20." Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get their "fair share"?

They realised that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everyone's share, then the fifth and the sixth would each end up being paid to drink their beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each drinker's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay. And so:

The fifth person, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the drinkers began to compare their savings.

"I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth. She pointed to the tenth man, "but he got $10!" "Yes, that's right," exclaimed the fifth. "I only saved a dollar too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I did" "That's true!!" shouted the seventh. "Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks" "Wait a minute," yelled the first four in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor"

The nine drinkers surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible!

[Murray]

Brilliant!!!! Of course the first 4 could always apply for a hardship grant!!

[MSTRS]

Brilliant!!!! Of course the first 4 could always apply for a hardship grant!!

I can see that you are one of those in the second category...where do you think the hardship grant money comes from? :wari:

[Murray]

Actually No, I'm probably the poor bastard who got beat up and are sarcastic with it!!!!

[The Stranger]

Screw the economics, I want to meet the tenth drinker for a beer.

[The Pastor]

i'd be the poor guy who misssed out on the beer, but doubled up on the beating.

[yungatart]

Well, what I want to know is how I get to have free beer and a 16% saving. I guess I'd have to become a poitician for that lark, huh?
What is the use of giving me all that info...but not the nitty gritty?

[MSTRS]

What is the use of giving me all that info...but not the nitty gritty?

Us 10%ers have to have a laugh (at your expense of course) but not give away the secret of how we manage our vaunted position :oi-grr:

[Ixion]

The communist version :

Every day 10 people went out together for a beer.

They'd put a hat on the table and everyone would throw in as much as they could afford. Then they'd give the hat to the bar owner, and he'd supply them with as much beer as it was worth.

Then one day the bar owner threw a curve ""Since you are all such of good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by 20%. So, they all got more beer.

Then one day, someone noticed that one of the group never put anything in the hat. Yet he had plenty of money, big car, nice house, regularly booked $200 whores, the works. But, never anything in the hat. So the other nine watched him : and, sure enough, he never paid his whack.

So, the nine of them beat up the capitalist exploiter. So in future they had the same amount of money for beer, and one less person to divide it amongst.

[scorpious]

The communist version :

Every day 10 people went out together for a beer.

They'd put a hat on the table and everyone would throw in as much as they could afford. Then they'd give the hat to the bar owner, and he'd supply them with as much beer as it was worth.

Then one day the bar owner threw a curve ""Since you are all such of good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by 20%. So, they all got more beer.

Then one day, someone noticed that one of the group never put anything in the hat. Yet he had plenty of money, big car, nice house, regularly booked $200 whores, the works. But, never anything in the hat. So the other nine watched him : and, sure enough, he never paid his whack.

So, the nine of them beat up the capitalist exploiter. So in future they had the same amount of money for beer, and one less person to divide it amongst.

hey I like that, positive rep for you my man :rockon:

[FROSTY]

Then theres the other version

Suppose that every day, ten people go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. Sopose one person actually doesn't drink beer He's a rum drinker Sopose said rum drinker because the group drinks beer pays for his own rum out of his own pocket.But still contributes to the beer fund
He still gets beaten up in the end for not doing the PC thing

[paturoa]

I've seen another one where those same 10 people going for a beer for in the UnZud bar pay $100 between them.....

....where half of them pay $9 between them and the other half pay $91

OR


those greedy rich people....

....the last one in the bar (about %10 of the population earn over $60) pays $44 for his beer!

http://www.treasury.govt.nz/budget/2007/taxpayers/01.htm

But wait there's more.... remember the first half, well most of them work their arses off, and that Cheif Thief dude from earlier, well he has now organised it so that as these people start to earn more they don't get any more. Go figure.

[Nasty]

Not a joke - so is an interesting tale ....



BAR ROOM ECONOMICS – HOW THE TAX SYSTEM WORKS

Suppose that every day, ten people go out for beer and the bill for
all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our
taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do.

The ten drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the
arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. "Since you
are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost
of your daily beer by $20." Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so
the first four were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But
what about the other six - the paying customers? How could they
divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get their "fair share"?

They realised that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they
subtracted that from everyone's share, then the fifth and the sixth
would each end up being paid to drink their beer. So, the bar owner
suggested that it would be fair to reduce each drinker's bill by
roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts
each should pay. And so:

The fifth person, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four
continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the
drinkers began to compare their savings.

"I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth. She pointed
to the tenth man, "but he got $10!" "Yes, that's right," exclaimed
the fifth. "I only saved a dollar too. It's unfair that he got ten
times more than I did" "That's true!!" shouted the seventh. "Why
should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the
breaks" "Wait a minute," yelled the first four in unison. "We didn't
get anything at all. The system exploits the poor"

The nine drinkers surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine
sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the
bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough
money between all of them for even half of the bill.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, journalists and college professors,
is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get
the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them
for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact,
they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat
friendlier.

For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do
not understand, no explanation is possible!

[Mully]

REPOST!!!

Hurray, I got to say it first.

Sad but true anyway

[Stickchick]

Very interesting read, even the simple but smart looking doesn't need an explanation after that.:clap:

[alanzs]

As wealth has accumulated into the hands of the few, the right wing agenda has become even more transparent:
1. Accumulate wealth,
2. Do everything/anything possible so that nobody sees that #1 is occurring.

:eek:

[Lias]

As wealth has accumulated into the hands of the few, the right wing agenda has become even more transparent:
1. Accumulate wealth,
2. Do everything/anything possible so that nobody sees that #1 is occurring.

:eek:

I worry that people like you teach our children, I really do.

[Winston001]

As wealth has accumulated into the hands of the few, the right wing agenda has become even more transparent:
1. Accumulate wealth,
2. Do everything/anything possible so that nobody sees that #1 is occurring.

:eek:

I know this is a popular view among some people but the reality of the real world defies the supposed conspiracy. Cars today are so cheap as to be almost disposable. Technology in the form of cellphones, ipods, computers abounds. We throw away food. Cafes, restaurants, bars, and fast food businesses are everywhere and patronised by the average punter.

If wealth was restricted in the hands of the few, we'd look like Africa where that is true. But not here - lucky us.

[Winston001]

Not a joke - so is an interesting tale ....



BAR ROOM ECONOMICS – HOW THE TAX SYSTEM WORKS

Suppose that every day, ten people go out for beer and the bill for
all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our
taxes, it would go something like this: etc.......


They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, journalists and college professors,
is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get
the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them
for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact,
they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat
friendlier.

For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do
not understand, no explanation is possible!

This is American and not directly applicable to all Western social democracies. Nevertheless the essential point is well-made - tax someone too harshly and they will strive to artificially avoid the tax.....or go elsewhere.

The most simple example for us in NZ is the flow of people to Australia. The wages are higher, the standard of living is higher, and taxes lower. It can be argued some Oz taxes are hidden but anyone I know who has gone there feels financially better off. They may still view NZ as a nicer place to live, but not enough to move back.

[alanzs]

I worry that people like you teach our children, I really do.

Like I say in my personal profile (which is really neither) be afraid! Open mindedness is a good thing, it makes people ask questions. :2thumbsup

[Winston001]

As wealth has accumulated into the hands of the few, the right wing agenda has become even more transparent:
1. Accumulate wealth,
2. Do everything/anything possible so that nobody sees that #1 is occurring.

:eek:

Hi Alanz - good on you for being a teacher. :yes: I'm just a bit doubtful that your post represents open-mindedness. You aren't questioning anything - which open-mindedness requires, instead you are stating a political opinion. No problem with you having an opinion, but its not the same as being open to other ideas.

[jrandom]

Fallacious bollocks, written for the low-IQ masses.

I shudder to see how little effort is required to manipulate the minds of the proletariat.

[alanzs]

I know this is a popular view among some people but the reality of the real world defies the supposed conspiracy. Cars today are so cheap as to be almost disposable. Technology in the form of cellphones, ipods, computers abounds. We throw away food. Cafes, restaurants, bars, and fast food businesses are everywhere and patronised by the average punter.

If wealth was restricted in the hands of the few, we'd look like Africa where that is true. But not here - lucky us.

I'm not much on conspiracy theories, but the world economic reality is that the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. I'm not saying this is evil or bad, it's just what it is. I am all for capitalism. I like how Bill Gates has been espousing "Compassionate Capitalism." Capitalism with a heart.

I don't know the statistics here in NZ. I'd assume it isn't much different than most other western nations. The majority of the wealth is in the hands of a few. Again, I'm not making any moral judgment on this. :laugh:

[Winston001]

Fallacious bollocks, written for the low-IQ masses.

I shudder to see how little effort is required to manipulate the minds of the proletariat.

Sheesh, don't be so mealy-mouthed - let it out man!! :argh: Feel the rage. :bash:

[jrandom]

Sheesh, don't be so mealy-mouthed - let it out man!! :argh: Feel the rage. :bash:

That's disappointing. I thought you might have responded with some thoughtful debate on the subject of taxation.

[alanzs]

Hi Alanz - good on you for being a teacher. :yes: I'm just a bit doubtful that your post represents open-mindedness. You aren't questioning anything - which open-mindedness requires, instead you are stating a political opinion. No problem with you having an opinion, but its not the same as being open to other ideas.

I chose to become a primary school teacher after many years in the business world at a fairly high level (in my own mind at least). Took a huge pay cut to do it, so it wasn't done rashly. Kids are our future. I have very high standards and push all the students to achieve their personal best. Something many of them sorely need. I work in a lower decile school, where many of the kids goals when they grow up are to get on the dole like all their family or maybe work at KFC. Some of the kids have no relatives that work at a job, unless you count working at a tinnie house.

Nothing wrong with business or making money. I think unbridled capitalism has the potential to be very in-humane. I have seen it and unfortunately, participated in it.

I am very open to other ideas, truly. Having an opinion, isn't mutually exclusive with being open minded. I don't have to be wrong for you to be right, and visa versa.

Would anyone really disagree that there is an agenda to accumulate wealth by those on the right end of the political spectrum? I don't think the National party leaders would say they aren't for making more money. Or, would they?

I think the left probably wants to redistribute the wealth of the right. Please enlighten me. I'm open to more knowledge. :eek:

[Lias]

Would anyone really disagree that there is an agenda to accumulate wealth by those on the right end of the political spectrum? I don't think the National party leaders would say they aren't for making more money. Or, would they?

Plenty of right wing people who arnt rich. Heard of this little group called the working class? :hug:

[avgas]

hehe classic right up - sad thing was that it goes to show the all of NZ is alcoholics

[alanzs]

Plenty of right wing people who arnt rich. Heard of this little group called the working class? :hug:

I'd be one of them workers. I remember an old saying "When you're young, if you're not a liberal, you don't have a heart. When you're old, if your not a conservative, you don't have a brain."

I'd say I am socially liberal and fiscally conservative. I want to keep my money but don't care what others do with theirs. Something like that. :hug:

[Robert Taylor]

I'd be one of them workers. I remember an old saying "When you're young, if you're not a liberal, you don't have a heart. When you're old, if your not a conservative, you don't have a brain."

I'd say I am socially liberal and fiscally conservative. I want to keep my money but don't care what others do with theirs. Something like that. :hug:

I have no problem with people making money as long as it is not exclusively from speculation. To that end I have a real problem with stock traders ( yes John Key is amogst those ) and real estate agents. Making money should require reasojnable effort. Capitalism that benefits the country and carries along people with it enrichening their well being is all good. I have a problem with the big multinationals and just as much problem with socialists who over-zealously prey on the wealth producers and stifle ambition.Conservatism, capitalism and compassion could co-exist if those in charge had social ethics.
That so many ambitious people have left these shores over the last dark 9 years of the most dickhead ''government'' in our history is indicative of a major problem.

[alanzs]

I have no problem with people making money as long as it is not exclusively from speculation. To that end I have a real problem with stock traders ( yes John Key is amogst those ) and real estate agents. Making money should require reasojnable effort. Capitalism that benefits the country and carries along people with it enrichening their well being is all good. I have a problem with the big multinationals and just as much problem with socialists who over-zealously prey on the wealth producers and stifle ambition.Conservatism, capitalism and compassion could co-exist if those in charge had social ethics.
That so many ambitious people have left these shores over the last dark 9 years of the most dickhead ''government'' in our history is indicative of a major problem.

Very well said! :2thumbsup

[Winston001]

That's disappointing. I thought you might have responded with some thoughtful debate on the subject of taxation.

Hmmmm.....I'm thinking......Let them eat cake?.......:done:


Taxation is theft.

What is the difference between a taxidermist and a tax collector? The taxidermist takes only your skin.

I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.

There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want, merely because you think it would be good for him.

Parliament can raise taxes because it can persuade a sizable fraction of the populace that somebody else will pay.

The art of taxation consists in so plucking the goose as to obtain the largest amount of feathers with the least amount of hissing.

A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which debt he proposes to pay off with your money.

[Pussy]

Hmmmm.....I'm thinking......Let them eat cake?.......:done:


Taxation is theft.

What is the difference between a taxidermist and a tax collector? The taxidermist takes only your skin.

I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.

There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want, merely because you think it would be good for him.

Parliament can raise taxes because it can persuade a sizable fraction of the populace that somebody else will pay.

The art of taxation consists in so plucking the goose as to obtain the largest amount of feathers with the least amount of hissing.

A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which debt he proposes to pay off with your money.

There's some goodies there, Winston! love your work :D

[davereid]

Well said Winston...

Somehow the socialists seem to think that violence is just fine... as long as its used to take money off the unwilling to fund social programs..

[alanzs]

I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.

A classic Homer Simpson moment. :doh:

[Winston001]

I chose to become a primary school teacher after many years in the business world at a fairly high level (in my own mind at least). Took a huge pay cut to do it, so it wasn't done rashly. Kids are our future. I have very high standards and push all the students to achieve their personal best. Something many of them sorely need. I work in a lower decile school, where many of the kids goals when they grow up are to get on the dole like all their family or maybe work at KFC. Some of the kids have no relatives that work at a job, unless you count working at a tinnie house.

Nothing wrong with business or making money. I think unbridled capitalism has the potential to be very in-humane. I have seen it and unfortunately, participated in it.

I am very open to other ideas, truly. Having an opinion, isn't mutually exclusive with being open minded. I don't have to be wrong for you to be right, and visa versa.

Agreed, what is important is to offer open-ended questions challenging the status quo. You can then lead a debate in the direction which your views support but must also express the contrary arguments.

For example, asking your students why people work at all? They'll say "money" but its far more than that. Work gives people a purpose, a circle of friends, a sense of being useful, achievement etc etc. Ask them what society would look like if no-one worked? Ok, you'd have to be gentle, no point alienating the kids, but these are ideas probably not discussed at home.


Would anyone really disagree that there is an agenda to accumulate wealth by those on the right end of the political spectrum? I don't think the National party leaders would say they aren't for making more money. Or, would they?

I think the left probably wants to redistribute the wealth of the right. Please enlighten me. I'm open to more knowledge. :eek:

Agenda isn't the best word because it has an tone of conspiracy, plotting, grabbing power. Belief is more simple and fits. The accumulation of wealth is vested in every human's desire for security. Plenty of food, a big dry cave safe from attack, and the ability to provide for and protect a family.

The trouble is some folk have multiple caves while others crowd into just one. The Left want to share the caves out evenly. The Right want to rent the spare caves to the Left. :bleh:

[Winston001]

I remember an old saying "When you're young, if you're not a liberal, you don't have a heart. When you're old, if your not a conservative, you don't have a brain."
:hug:

Winston Churchill.

[James Deuce]

For example, asking your students why people work at all? They'll say "money" but its far more than that. Work gives people a purpose, a circle of friends, a sense of being useful, achievement etc etc. Ask them what society would look like if no-one worked? Ok, you'd have to be gentle, no point alienating the kids, but these are ideas probably not discussed at home.

I was with you until this bit.

Work is what you do if you are too stupid to find something you love to do that someone else is stupid enough to pay you for.

Work provides none of those things. Work friends are transient, it gives you a sense of being used, you get to watch other people achieve by forwarding your emails with their name on the bottom of them, etc, etc.

If we're going to openly discuss Fairy Tales with kids, and least make it Badjelly the Witch. That will be a highlight in the midst of drudgery.

[Winston001]

I was with you until this bit.

Work is what you do if you are too stupid to find something you love to do that someone else is stupid enough to pay you for.

Work provides none of those things. Work friends are transient, it gives you a sense of being used, you get to watch other people achieve by forwarding your emails with their name on the bottom of them, etc, etc.

If we're going to openly discuss Fairy Tales with kids, and least make it Badjelly the Witch. That will be a highlight in the midst of drudgery.

Wooah JD, such cynicism, here have some popcorn :jerry:

Guess its a glass half-empty glass half-full thing. I'm sure Alanzs already knows the questions and answers to open the kids minds, the work thing was just an example.

Your view of "work" is sad. The best advice anyone can receive is to chose a job doing something they love. However for most of us this just doesn't happen. Indeed I'm struggling to think of any acquaintance who loves their work, but occasionally meet such a lucky person.

If work is really so dreary, dull, and empty filled with transitory relationships of no meaning, then I really wonder why anyone bothers.....?? :eek:

[nudedaytona]

This calculation is wrong.

Their meal has been discounted by 20%. So each persons new fee is 20% less than it was.
.

Actually 100 / 120 is a 16.7% discount, so the original numbers are correct.

[James Deuce]

If work is really so dreary, dull, and empty filled with transitory relationships of no meaning, then I really wonder why anyone bothers.....?? :eek:

I do it for people I care about. There's no better reason, but I don't have to like it.