Steel frame restoration, powdercoat or paint?

[benhall]

so my fizzr was coming along nicely, i stripped the frame and wire wheeled alot of the surface rust.

in a hurry to get the bike coated and back together i bought some killrust paint, it sounded perfect full finish in silver and a rust preventer, the finish is just way to soft its rubbish rubs off with your fingers

so whats the best way to go from here? pull the clamp stem off and take it the blasters? is powder coating and good idea?

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[BMWST?]

powedr coating will be relatively expensive.there will be a minimum charge

[F5 Dave]

careful with 'blasters'. I took a frame to an industrial place & it came back looking like it had weathered a 45yr long sandstorm. Talk to them first so you can gauge if they will use an appropriate media. Powdercoat is good but you will need to mask off any threaded or sized hole or it will become .2mm smaller which can ruin your day. If they know their beans no prob. If they usually do garden furniture look elsewhere.

[Paul in NZ]

The answer is - it depends...

No doubt the powder coat is cheap as chips and very durable if done right BUT its not very shiney and its not very good with water. If it gets chipped weather will get behind it...

A decent 2K will be way glossier and almost as tough. A good painter or powder coater will have a fave blaster they work with. Ask around.

[AllanB]

Me - I paint - two pack car paint is durable and gives a very good finish (obviously). Easier to touch up if required too.

[tigertim20]

yoll probably get a split of 50/50 on this. I personally prefer the powdercoat route, but bottom line if both can be quite effective provided its done properly.
Powedercoating really isnt that expensive at all, I dunno why some people make out like it costs a fortune.

If you are working with an older frame, as mentioned above, discuss what they will be blasting it with prior to being coated to make sure you get the desired outcome and finish.
Worth mentioning that Powdercoating tends to cover small blemishes and imperfections in the surface much better than paint

[98tls]

A few guys on the TL site have had great results powder coating there frames but as Paul said i wonder how it will look a few years down the track.Paint sounds the option to me...

[AllanB]

I've had small parts powder coated with success - tail tidies, etc. It very much depends on the coater as to the quality you get. The last piece was done very well and they had a cart frame in there they had done in a candy type new paint - looked great.

I've also had some shit coating done years back that chipped and then started peeling.

I'd still 2 pack a frame - huge choice of colours and finished (gloss, semi, flat, metallic etc)

[98tls]

I've had small parts powder coated with success - tail tidies, etc. It very much depends on the coater as to the quality you get. The last piece was done very well and they had a cart frame in there they had done in a candy type new paint - looked great.

I've also had some shit coating done years back that chipped and then started peeling.

I'd still 2 pack a frame - huge choice of colours and finished (gloss, semi, flat, metallic etc)

Would love to do the TLs frame a matt or semi gloss black but cant be arsed tasking the thing to bits.

[98tls]

Powder coat sure does look purty though...

[Grumph]

I'm unashamedly old school and use a local industrial painter for all my frame work. They do very good baked enamel work in a wide variety of colours - and usually cheaper than powder too.

What i hate about powder is the inability to do frame work and touch up afterwards.

[Erelyes]

Main thing to note, if you pay peanuts*, you'll get monkeys

*I hear peanut shells are actually quite good for media blasting.

[F5 Dave]

You can get it shiny. No drama. It won't chip unless they haven't done the chromate conversion (ally) or whatever it is for Steel properly and painted within 24hrs. We powder our gear for work and it gets more of a hiding, including explosions, bullets and fire and it never fails to amaze me. It isn't a std coating and I've had 2 pak before with good results. But I'll probably powder the stinger when it comes time.

[benhall]

i can paint, just never worked with 2k and not that keen to. I'm just concerned about the prep needed to paint a blasted frame, im geting keen on black

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[F5 Dave]

2k is not for home use, bad stuff to breathe without prof gear.

[ducatilover]

Main thing to note, if you pay peanuts*, you'll get monkeys

*I hear peanut shells are actually quite good for media blasting.

Walnut leaves a better finish,

I'd soda blast the frame, then Durapox or something similar.

[leathel]

LIC40/43 (40 gloss 43 matt) 2 pot paint, Soda/bead blast then colour.... No primer required and as long as there is no trace of rust it goes well, any trace of rust prime with Brunox first as LIC will not kill surface rust and it will spider under the paint, Not done a bike frame that way but done plenty of rifles... including the bolt and it wears well and next to no prep after blasting :D

[benhall]

thanks for the advice!, feels a little over the top for an old '88 shitter i'm rescuing but hell it should come out looking pretty spiffy can practice and learn on this thing then do something nice up down the track

[The Reibz]

Bro just pick up some septone paint from supercheap, I did a set of rims and a swingarm in gloss black and it turned out sweet. Just make sure you give it 3 days to dry.
Septone make good shit for the DIY enthusiast, don't write em off. You can even clear it and buff it back if you really want

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[bogan]

Powder can be surprisingly cheap, last stuff I had done was about 150 for a couple of cabinet frames etc (had budgeted 500). Do the prep work and seal up all bearing surfaces properly and probly be under a hundy for a pretty choice color.

[pete-blen]

I used engine enamel on my Montessa frame then went over it with a heat gun
after a couple of days drying...Ended up with quite a hard finish... Will still chip if hit hard enough...


http://imageshack.us/a/img29/5914/ssa41974.jpg

[Pedrostt500]

I'm not a fan of powder coating, as I find it chips to easily, a good 2 pac, or if you can find some one who does baked enamel finish.
It all comes down to the finnish you want, how much you want to spend and what you can do for your self.

[malcy25]

Soda blast and paint. I'd never use powdercoat as Grumph says, too hard to deal with f you have to do a repair.

[F5 Dave]

I'm not a fan of powder coating, as I find it chips to easily, . . .
Means it hasn't been applied properly within right timeframe. It should not chip.

[Pussy]

Two pack paint for the win. Miles better than powdercoating.

[gavinnz]

I am a painter and I have had this discussion on a few other news groups so
I will paste comments here:)
Gavin
......................................

Powdercoating...

Lets put some background in place.
1. I am a spray painter with 25 years experience.
2. I have painted a few motorcycle frames in my time.
3. I have seen powdercoated things including frames also.
4 AS a painter I have an eye for details that the non painter will never see.

Example.... another might think a paint job or powdercoat job is
perfect....
and yet a professional will see lots of things that are obvious to us, but
not seen by the non painter. (like me looking at an accountants work.. am will
not see 10% of what they see in the figures)

5. These are only my opinions and could be wrong.

So with those things in mind I now will tell you what I think...

I have NEVER seen a powercoat job that is up to the quailty of even
"flatness" and gloss of a well done 2 pack spray job done by someone who
knows what they are doing.... By flatness I mean an even surface texture...
some would call it "orange peal" effect.

Powder coat is a great industrial process, or when something is flat, new
and uniform. But for a complicated used structure like a frame their will
ALWAYS be areas where the powdercoat does not cover as well or gloss up
correctly.

My recomendations are.....
NEVER dipstrip a frame.
I did it once with a Ducati frame and their was a pinhole in a weld and
the frame filled with chemical!!
And their are too may hard to get to places to get the frame perfectly clean...
and steel is porous and will take in some chemicals... even when chemically
cleaned you can not be sure it is not inside the steel and coming back out
later after coating causing paint to lift.

Have it "sand" blasted. (not to course... ask them what they are using...
"shot" blasting is mostly way too course)

Right away (without touching by hand) dust off (clean dry compressed air
only) and spray the frame in a good 2 pack primer/undercoat.... but ONLY putting on
what is needed in the way of paint thickness as the more paint the more
chance of chipping later.
After priming.... once upside down then turned over wet and sprayed from the
top....

After it drys... I would leave it a about 4 or 5 days in summer... more in
winter.
All threads should then be cleaned out with a grease free tap...

Then dry sanded, taking care NOT to cut back to steel anywhere and if you do you
HAVE to spot prime that area again...
Take care around areas where other parts of the bike will face onto the paint... cut them as thin as you can without cutting to steel.... less chance of it chipping when assembling when their is less paint.

Then dust off and gloss the frame upside down... again ONLY enough colour to
get the colour correct... any more is wasted and going to cause chips more
shrinkage and bits of paint build up to come off when assembling around bolt holes etc...

The when still wet turn it over.... I make hanging jigs and practice
turning the frame first!!
Top coat the frame from the top... with extra coats ONLY on the most seen
rails...

Then over again and one or two coats of clear... then over the right way up
and the final coats of clear. (clear is optional with a solid colour)

The two pack paint is what is called "gloss off the gun" and does not need
"cutting and polishing" like most single packs and it is easyer to use
then the old single pack enamels which dry to slowly for a frame and tend to
run on a complicated structure however careful you are...

I would then leave a frame for a week un touched... I do not bake them like
some do... but that can be good if done at very low temps.
Then I would use a VERY VERY fine liquard abrasive like brasso... (NOT car
cutting compound as they are WAY to harsh) then a good hard hand applied wax
coat.... then assemble the bike.

When putting it together always put a small dab of oil of any washers that
face the painted surface... and make sure the CURVED face of the washer
faces the paint.
This will reduce damage to the paint when torquing up bolts....
Also remember to make sure you earth wire bolts and washers have contact
with steel when needed.

Other points..
For frames.... a smaller "gravity feed gun" with a pot above or beside the
tip that can be angled to any angle is the best way to get the frame done
right... the last one I did was a 1993 900SS frame and I needed my smaller
(yet good quality) gun to get in and around all the tubes.

Powder coating assumes the steel surface is perfect... fine for new
indrustrial things but a used motorcycle frame is going to have detects that
need to be got rid off and the priming and sand process finds and deals with
those...

Some powdercoating processes involve chemical dipping, coating with powder
and heating.... both hidious things to do to a frame!

Also I have no doubt that a good powdercoat job will be way better than a
bad spray job... but NOTHING beats a properly done spray job in ALL ways.

Rave over then!! :)

Regards,
Gavin

[benhall]

for price and finish and ease i got it powdercoated, all you see here was 230 bucks blasted and coated :) rust be gone!

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[F5 Dave]

Yeah looks nice, be sure to ducttape the frame rails when you put the engine in. Wish I'd followed my own advice last time.


Hmm. . .disc mounting area doesn't look like it was masked. . .Should be bare metal flat. Check all threads & bearing holes before starting a build-up.

Could be some playing with a dremel & sanding mop.

[gavinnz]

From the pictures it does not look very glossy.... which is typical of powdercoat jobs I have seen.

Also don't Ducktape the frame to protect it!!! The tape is too strong and might pull paint or powder off.
Wrap something around the frame rails and tape around the stuff to hold it their, not directly onto the frame. I have used a double layer of corogated cardboard in the past.

Regards
Gavin (painter)

[F5 Dave]

Ahh bullshit. Powder will easily cope with that. We tape our kit as it goes through the factory to avoid scratches so it looks new it then gets dragged over testing benches, submitted to hot and cold tests -40 to +60 and a water bath test. Tape is removed a few days later and wiped over.

[benhall]

Yeah looks nice, be sure to ducttape the frame rails when you put the engine in. Wish I'd followed my own advice last time.


Hmm. . .disc mounting area doesn't look like it was masked. . .Should be bare metal flat. Check all threads & bearing holes before starting a build-up.

Could be some playing with a dremel & sanding mop.

Yes i did "hmmmph" over that, i will figure something out

its glossy as shit, the frame isnt because i wanted matte silver
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[gavinnz]

Ahh bullshit. Powder will easily cope with that.

Bullshit ha? Pretty arrogant comment mate. Are you going to personally guarantee that EVERY powder coat job is done to a high standard and could not be damaged by tape? Big ask.

[F5 Dave]

Yes i did "hmmmph" over that, i will figure something out

its glossy as shit, the frame isnt because i wanted matte silver
293158
Wax the wheels they will repel chain lube better. You can get anti graffiti clear powder gloss coatings that help.

[F5 Dave]

Bullshit ha? Pretty arrogant comment mate. Are you going to personally guarantee that EVERY powder coat job is done to a high standard and could not be damaged by tape? Big ask.
Yes of course I will, and while I'm about it I'll guarantee every house roof paint job has been properly prepared and will last 20 years.

You are trying to argue by attacking from a tangent. Ok I did call bullshit, but you are clearly biased to your profession of wet spray. I prefer to use what I see fit for job at hand and many other reasons including cost. Last frame was 2pack, next will depend.

[gavinnz]

"but you are clearly biased to your profession of wet spray."
Yes I do prefer good spray over good powdercoat... BUT I would prefer good powder coat over bad spray work any day.

It really comes down to the applicators skill and the correctness of their process on the day that dictates the quality of the result, be it spray, powder or accounting for that matter! :)

I am also into very old cars and one day someone asked the question... "is stuffing upholstery with traditional springs and horse hair "better" than using modern foam materials?"

Some said foam was total rubbish and horse hair was the only way.. other said horse hair was utter crap and foam was the dog bollocks.... and they were all right because they were basing their comments on the experiance they had with individual tradesmen they had do the work. Some did horse hair well some did not, some did foam well some did not.

So when the question of Powdercoat vis Spray paint.. to me it's the same story... it comes down to the processes, skill and knowledge of the individual applicator.
I think powdercoat has made big quality improvements on the past 20 years.

Back to the tape for a minute... other then just pulling paint or powdercoat off the job, some glues used on some tapes can soften some paints and leave and inprint in the work. If put on to early they can stop solvents coming out of the work which can react with the glues and cause trouble also.

Their are literally hundreds of ways to cock up a spray job (most of which I have done and learned from over the past 25 years!!) from start to finish and one of the skills of the painter or powdercoater is to know them and avoid them. Most of them seem silly and pedantic from those outside the profession but if doing something causes a problem 1 time in 100 we still want to avoid it ALL the time.

Anywho I am just trying to be helpful to those who might read the tape idea and use the wrong tape on badly applied finish to soon and be the 1 in 100 or more that has a problem with it.

Regards
Gavin

[benhall]

If someone had got a frame coated and tape pulled it off, i thing theyd have more to worry about...

anyways seems pretty tough, ive been putting the swingarm bearings in etc

[gavinnz]

If someone had got a frame coated and tape pulled it off, i thing theyd have more to worry about...

anyways seems pretty tough, ive been putting the swingarm bearings in etc

True!
How much did the shop tell you about what they did?
What do you know of the process that shop used? What prep did they do? Did they strip the old paint right off back to metal? (not good or bad by the way, just interesting).
Did the powdercoat use a baking element to the system?

Regards
Gavin

[benhall]

i request to be stripped back, both the wheels and frame, they then heat it, prime it, heat it, coated and then heated again i assume, man knew what he was on about

[jamesfry]

Powder coating is the way to go. Shop around and find a good price. If you get a price you don't like make the guy a counter offer. Make them work for your business a little. I think paint will be cheaper but it won't be as wear resistant.

[F5 Dave]

Hey James. fashionably late to the party, but check out the pic above of the finished items:innocent: