LiFePo4 batteries on old bikes?

[Mike.Gayner]

Does anyone know anything about using LiFePo4 batteries (Shorai et al) on old bikes? I don't know a whole lot about charging systems - would my A7 put out sufficient voltage to keep it balanced? I like the idea of shaving off a huge amount of weight and freeing up some space in the batt box.

[AllanB]

Excellent post mate! I'll check in later :lol:

[Mike.Gayner]

Huh, yeah I kind of know where this is going, trying to avoid the BS by posting in this sub-forum. That other thread makes me want to vomit. I'm up to page 8 of this thread (http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=770364&page=8), which is interesting but doesn't tell me much about how I can expect these batteries to perform in an old bike with an old charging system.

[tigertim20]

Im sure someone will b along to EDucate you shortly . . .:facepalm:

[pete376403]

Chance are the A7 puts out too much, rather than not enough volts, and that it relies on a pretty crude regulator to bleed off the excess as heat. eg my old Suzuki (Suzi must have made the worst of the jap electrics, but the others weren't much better) puts out about 70v AC on each of the three phases around 5000rpm and a basic rectifier/regulator is all that prevents a battery meltdown.

However as others have said Ed will be along shortly...

[bogan]

Voltage can be checked pretty easily with a voltmeter. Some batts self balance even on lower supply voltage; otherwise you can use a balance charger to do it yourself periodically. If it is higher than recommended, don't throw an LiFePo4 in there.

Some have had issues with the shunt type reg/rects (if that's what you have) and the LiFePo4's increased ability to 'draw' current from them. The potential is that if the battery is discharged significantly, it can draw more current than the reg/rect is designed to output, resulting in its failure, which can in turn pass too high a voltage to the battery and cause it to fail also. So imo you should look at adding in a charge fuse if your bike doesn't have one, just as an extra precaution.

[avgas]

Chance are the A7 puts out too much, rather than not enough volts, and that it relies on a pretty crude regulator to bleed off the excess as heat. eg my old Suzuki (Suzi must have made the worst of the jap electrics, but the others weren't much better) puts out about 70v AC on each of the three phases around 5000rpm and a basic rectifier/regulator is all that prevents a battery meltdown.

However as others have said Ed will be along shortly...
Interesting. But not that useful. What is the voltage AT the battery when the bike is running. Most of my work on the post-69 bikes the charging voltages never went above 14.5V.
I would be supprised if it exceeded the 15.5V that Ed keeps spouting about.

Oh and 70's isn't old. :laugh:

But now I am curious.......who the hell things that removing the battery from an A7 saves weight????? Just cut of the rear mud-guard and save a ton :shifty:

[Pussy]

I would chuck a nice new Yuasa in it...

[skippa1]

Does anyone know anything about using LiFePo4 batteries (Shorai et al) on old bikes? I don't know a whole lot about charging systems - would my A7 put out sufficient voltage to keep it balanced? I like the idea of shaving off a huge amount of weight and freeing up some space in the batt box.

Why would you? If the experts (salesmen) can't even give a straight answer, and lead acid has done the job all these years, I can't see the advantage

[Mike.Gayner]

Why would you? If the experts (salesmen) can't even give a straight answer, and lead acid has done the job all these years, I can't see the advantage

That's kind of a silly answer though. Using that logic, every new bike would be sold without electric starters, using old style sealed beam lights and why would we bother with fuel injection? Technology moves on, and the old "why change what's working" is a juvenile perspective when there are better options. If the batteries are objectively better (maybe they are, maybe they aren't) then why not use them? Smaller, lighter, longer lifespan (maybe) etc.

I'm just after information, I didn't think everyone was going to get their petticoats in a twist about it.

[skippa1]

That's kind of a silly answer though. Using that logic, every new bike would be sold without electric starters, using old style sealed beam lights and why would we bother with fuel injection? Technology moves on, and the old "why change what's working" is a juvenile perspective when there are better options. If the batteries are objectively better (maybe they are, maybe they aren't) then why not use them? Smaller, lighter, longer lifespan (maybe) etc.

I'm just after information, I didn't think everyone was going to get their petticoats in a twist about it.

Petticoats fine thanks, I just happen to agree with Pussys reply.

If you want a sensible answer, KB is the wrong place to ask, and the other thread clearly demonstrates that the self proclaimed experts can't agree so how are the rest of us going to? Silly? Juvenile? You bet, it's KB?

if you want new technology, why are you riding an old bike?

seriously though, if you haven't read the Shorai thread, read it. You will come away with only one certainty, lead acid is a reasonable price, reasonable life and you know what you're getting.

get whatever you want

[AllanB]

Skippa1 has a point - chuck in a Motobatt or similar - updated old school technology (sealed unit, gel matt internals) at a affordable price.

[Mike.Gayner]

if you want new technology, why are you riding an old bike?

If there's something simple you can replace, like a battery, that is objectively better, you'd be silly not to.

I'll take your advice - next time I have a question I won't bother with the self proclaimed KB experts, seeing as everyone here seems to approach online discussion like they're trying to start an argument.

[bogan]

If there's something simple you can replace, like a battery, that is objectively better, you'd be silly not to.

I'll take your advice - next time I have a question I won't bother with the self proclaimed KB experts, seeing as everyone here seems to approach online discussion like they're trying to start an argument.

Have you figured out the current charging voltage and reg type yet?

Perhaps your focus on the perceived argument has been somewhat contributory to the lack of information gleaned... don't let the BS stop you from being an early adopter, it'll go that way eventually (barring materials shortage or other rapid batt development). They are objectively better than lead acid, but getting an objective brand comparison between LiFePO4s is quite a task.

[Madness]

I'll take your advice - next time I have a question I won't bother with the self proclaimed KB experts, seeing as everyone here seems to approach online discussion like they're trying to start an argument.

Someone rather clever once typed: KiwiBiker, full of love and disrespect.

[Mike.Gayner]

Have you figured out the current charging voltage and reg type yet?

Perhaps your focus on the perceived argument has been somewhat contributory to the lack of information gleaned... don't let the BS stop you from being an early adopter, it'll go that way eventually (barring materials shortage or other rapid batt development). They are objectively better than lead acid, but getting an objective brand comparison between LiFePO4s is quite a task.

Bogus, getting out my multimeter tomorrow and will do some investigating. Was really hoping someone here might have some experience running one of these batts in a 70s jappa and could share their experience.

[bogan]

Bogus, getting out my multimeter tomorrow and will do some investigating. Was really hoping someone here might have some experience running one of these batts in a 70s jappa and could share their experience.

Well on another forum there is probably a dozen of us running LiFePO4 batts in late 80s bikes (shunt reg and CDI), shorai, ballistic, and some homemade jobbies. I think there was a racebike or two with capacity issues, but otherwise performing like the heavy stuff so far. Time will tell how long they last, but it's probly not the best demographic to test that as we all seem to get pretty good life outa lead acids before switching anyway.
One of the things about looking for specific experience, is the bad stories probably get more hits than the good; the only one I can think of didn't go too well, but the only reason it sticks in memory is the discussion about why it might not have gone too well.

[Mike.Gayner]

From reading the advrider thread the LiFePo4 batteries seem to be a reasonably low risk option - all round a safer battery than a standard pb batt, which means even in the worst case the most you've lost is a few bucks on batteries. I like the idea of having a few extra cubic centremeters under my seat for storage.

[bogan]

From reading the advrider thread the LiFePo4 batteries seem to be a reasonably low risk option - all round a safer battery than a standard pb batt, which means even in the worst case the most you've lost is a few bucks on batteries. I like the idea of having a few extra cubic centremeters under my seat for storage.

Don't think I'd say an all-round safer option quite yet, though a bit of light reading about Nanophosphate tech sounds like it could be worthy of the all round safer claim. Not sure if any starter batts are using those cells yet, StarkPower batts look like they might from the listed specs though.

[RDJ]

Some have had issues with the shunt type reg/rects (if that's what you have) and the LiFePo4's increased ability to 'draw' current from them. The potential is that if the battery is discharged significantly, it can draw more current than the reg/rect is designed to output, resulting in its failure, which can in turn pass too high a voltage to the battery and cause it to fail also.

This happened to me on a 'stored' bike (04 VRod) after I'd had a Li battery fitted for touring, then left the bike in commercial bike storage on a charger (allegedly) for 3 1/2 months until next back in-country. They'd not hooked up the battery, it was dead flat. They boost-charged it so I could start and leave the shop, upon which the regulator (and then the stator) failed. Not saying this was battery-caused, but it was a consequence of the battery type, according to the shop which diagnosed and fixed the problems.

[BMWST?]

not meaning to add fuel to the fire,so to speak.Are these life po4 batteries the ones that (esp if damaged from a drop) can almost spontaneously burst into flame?
If they are they def arent the safe version,and arguing that we need the latest technology in a 70s bike is a bit disengeniuos.The charging system is designed and optimised for a lead acid battery,not a lipo4

[Edbear]

not meaning to add fuel to the fire,so to speak.Are these life po4 batteries the ones that (esp if damaged from a drop) can almost spontaneously burst into flame?
If they are they def arent the safe version,and arguing that we need the latest technology in a 70s bike is a bit disengeniuos.The charging system is designed and optimised for a lead acid battery,not a lipo4

LiFePO4 is about the safest and take a lot to catch fire. Shorai's have been in some hard crashes and come through unscathed. One that was bad enough to split the case had no consequences other than a dead battery.

On topic, this technology is less tolerant of fluctuating regulators, and some owners are retrofitting digital units to maintain a consistent charging voltage. Especially with six volt systems. Shorai will operate happily between 13.6 and 15v, with around 13.8 the ideal.

[BMWST?]

LiFePO4 is about the safest and take a lot to catch fire. Shorai's have been in some hard crashes and come through unscathed. One that was bad enough to split the case had no consequences other than a dead battery.

On topic, this technology is less tolerant of fluctuating regulators, and some owners are retrofitting digital units to maintain a consistent charging voltage. Especially with six volt systems. Shorai will operate happily between 13.6 and 15v, with around 13.8 the ideal.

Thanks for clarification

[Edbear]

Thanks for clarification

No problem. I should state that the six volt batteries shouldn't go over 7.4v.

[caseye]

81 XV thou with a good sized, significantly lighter Shorai battery in it for the past 9 months or more. No issues whatsoever, cept when I left the key on acc and drained it dead flat at the Blue September ride.
Happily accepted a jump start from a race falcons spare battery and since then it's gone and gone and never given me an ounce of trouble despite some keen as mec an ic starting it and stopping it a million times in one day, sorting another and unrelated matter.
I believe it is worth it's weight( or lack of it) and that it is giving me excellent service, I don't trickle charge and often don't start the bike for upwards of a month at a time occsionally at which time she roars into life like a bloody demon.

[Mike.Gayner]

I'm glad I went and checked the voltage of my charging system, because something is very wrong either with my charging system or by cheapo multimeter. It recorded an expected 12.4v when off, and bounced around at about 13.5 - 15v while idling. But when revving the bike it bounced around anywhere from 15v - 50v+. So looks like I'm in the market for a new voltage regulator before I explode my existing battery. I'm amazed it has held up so far to be honest.

[bogan]

I'm glad I went and checked the voltage of my charging system, because something is very wrong either with my charging system or by cheapo multimeter. It recorded an expected 12.4v when off, and bounced around at about 13.5 - 15v while idling. But when revving the bike it bounced around anywhere from 15v - 50v+. So looks like I'm in the market for a new voltage regulator before I explode my existing battery. I'm amazed it has held up so far to be honest.

Might pay to run through the stator checks too, make sure that is good before springing for a reg/rect; I think the shindengen mosfet ones (an OEM part, or OEM compatible) are a popular upgrade for those wanting more grunt with less heat.

Follow the stuff in this link, it's the good shit
http://www.electrosport.com/technical-resources/library/diagnosis/pdf/fault-finding-diagram.pdf

[avgas]

I'm glad I went and checked the voltage of my charging system, because something is very wrong either with my charging system or by cheapo multimeter. It recorded an expected 12.4v when off, and bounced around at about 13.5 - 15v while idling. But when revving the bike it bounced around anywhere from 15v - 50v+. So looks like I'm in the market for a new voltage regulator before I explode my existing battery. I'm amazed it has held up so far to be honest.
Lead acids are actually pretty good like that thought. We have pumped 24v into the odd one when we hook up the wrong charger.
We did make one go pop on the -48V supply though. Took about 1 hour (lazy techs went off for lunch).

Interestingly enough if you have a dead SLA battery - try doing -24V on it for one hour, then 10min @ +24V, then 3 hours at 13V. Old wives trick that works on some. Will get them back to about 50% capacity. You have to monitor them though - watch the temp and the case. If it breaks the seal, its fucked.

[Paul in NZ]

There are quite a few aftermarket black boxes that will offer a decent upgrade on your original rect/reg and unless you are a real stickler for originality I'd certainly investigate this PLUS I would be running a few extra earth cable in AND using relays on the headlight...

I have been doing all this and more on my 60's english bikes and it will work just as well on a japanese classic. Just be a bit careful with the crazy flywheel magneto type ignition systems...