Prime Minister Dotcom?

[Banditbandit]

( Gay video cropped)


:killingme ... Just the song for such a gay thread ..

("You must spread ...")

[Akzle]

Flag
The official banner of a state or nation, often decorated with emblems or images that symbolize that state or nation.

:

where is the legal definition, champ?


hmmmmm?

[BoristheBiter]

:


hmmmmm?

Law of the Flag Legal Definition:
http://www.marinewaypoints.com/cgi-bin/flags.pl?ship=1&signal=1&input=A%20principle%20of%20maritime%20and%20intern ational%20law;%20that%20the%20sailors%20and%20vess el%20will%20be%20subject%20to%20the%20laws%20of%20 the%20state%20corresponding%20to%20the%20flag%20fl own%20by%20the%20vessel.


:motu:

[mashman]

Don't flatter yourself.

You should read up on shit before you agree with someone that is wrong, it just makes you look like a dick, but that has never stopped you before ever stopped you?

So who do I think I am and who am I really?

I'd be surprised if you knew what I was agreeing to. Actually, I'm not surprised, because you don't... you just made shit up as per.

[Akzle]

Law of the Flag Legal Definition:
http://www.marinewaypoints.com/cgi-bin/flags.pl?ship=1&signal=1&input=A%20principle%20of%20maritime%20and%20intern ational%20law;%20that%20the%20sailors%20and%20vess el%20will%20be%20subject%20to%20the%20laws%20of%20 the%20state%20corresponding%20to%20the%20flag%20fl own%20by%20the%20vessel.


:motu:

youre repeating yourself. And not answering the question.
And poorly attempting to copy my hilarity.

[Quasievil]

As the original gay bastard on here u would know that I guess:baby:

Yeah but youre only Gay if you take it, Doris takes it, I gave it......mind you a little willy didnt help his cause lol

[BoristheBiter]

I'd be surprised if you knew what I was agreeing to. Actually, I'm not surprised, because you don't... you just made shit up as per.

So I'm you then. I new one of your head friends sounded familiar.

[BoristheBiter]

youre repeating yourself. And not answering the question.
And poorly attempting to copy my hilarity.

I answered the question which is more than you've done, no sorry you answered it but were just wrong but tried to hide the fact by talking about something else.

You're a politician aren't you? it makes sense seeing your so fascinated by Jews and dick sucking.

[Akzle]

I answered the question
no you didnt.

where is the legal definition, champ?
third boris. Third time.

[The Reibz]

As a Rating of the RNZN who has spent the last 7 years in a trade whos specialty is Flags and Ceremonial, I have the urge to correct both you cunts. But I won't, its to funny watching you squabble over something so small.

Good copy and paste skills too.

To the guy that posted the village people video. I will find you...

[BoristheBiter]

no you didnt.

third boris. Third time.

Yes I did.

third time :motu:

[TheDemonLord]

To the guy that posted the village people video. I will find you...

Just for Clarification, I don't swing that way....

[Quasievil]

So who do I think I am and who am I really?

A few of us can answer that question, I reckon I can do it best tho

[scott411]

seems Mr Dotcom has being having meetings with nearly every party outside government, interesting development,

they better be careful, he turned on Mr Banks pretty quickly when he did not get the favors he wanted,

[ellipsis]

...I'm hoping my design for the new national flag to be seriously considered...it is to be a green background with a yellow banana in the top left corner...any chance it will be taken seriously?...

[oldrider]

...I'm hoping my design for the new national flag to be seriously considered...it is to be a green background with a yellow banana in the top left corner...any chance it will be taken seriously?...

Absolutely ... the Green party "Australian leader" will grab it with both hands and impliment it's use when he becomes our prime minister! :banana:

Well, after he gets approval from Kim Dot.com that is! :o

[Shaun Harris]

I would desperately love to find a way to contact The man

[scott411]

I would desperately love to find a way to contact The man

i doubt you would get far, since you dont really have the means to stop him getting deported, to face trail for the charges he has against him in the states,

[Akzle]

i doubt you would get far, since you dont really have the means to stop him getting deported, to face trail for the charges he has against him in the states,

the term is extradited, and requires, y'know, proof.

[scott411]

the term is extradited, and requires, y'know, proof.

your right, but not as much proof to convict, only proof that their is a charge to answer, but ill leave it to Dotcom's team of high priced lawyers, and PR spin staff to argue that,

don't blame him for wanting to stay here, i bet the parole conditions in NZ are a whole lot better than he would get in the USA,

[Banditbandit]

your right, but not as much proof to convict, only proof that their is a charge to answer, but ill leave it to Dotcom's team of high priced lawyers, and PR spin staff to argue that,

don't blame him for wanting to stay here, i bet the parole conditions in NZ are a whole lot better than he would get in the USA,

Yes, but what is required to extradite him is good evidence that he has broken US law ...

If he has broken copyright law, then he was in New Zealand when he did it and his servers where here too ... He has broken NZ law and should be prosecuted here ...

I fail to see how US laws apply to people living here ... If US laws do apply to people living here then there is a sovereignty issue ... and we are all in the shit ... US law does not override NZ law in NZ ..

[MisterD]

they better be careful, he turned on Mr Banks pretty quickly when he did not get the favors he wanted,

Yeah, but Russel Norman was visiting Dotcom towers the day before asking questions of the security service types in select committee, so looks like he was doing the required favours.



the term is extradited, and requires, y'know, proof.

Deport him to Germany. Simples. I'm sure they'd love to do a swap for Paul Watson and hey presto, two pirac problems solve in a one-er.

[Banditbandit]

I wonder what will happen if the courts rule that he is NOT extradited ... and then John Key over rules that ... which he can ... could be an amusing scenario ...

[oldrider]

I wonder what will happen if the courts rule that he is NOT extradited ... and then the prime minister over rules that ... which he can ... could be an amusing scenario ...

True but how amusing would that be if your "chosen" (preferred/whatever) leader was the prime minister? :confused:

[Shaun Harris]

i doubt you would get far, since you dont really have the means to stop him getting deported, to face trail for the charges he has against him in the states,




True that, but him being deported is not a done thing yet, even though it is bloody obvious our own Proffessional crimial Prime minister wants him gone

Kim might actually be interested in a healthy chin wag with me still though

[phill-k]

Regardless of what you think about KimDC, am I the only person concerned that only 4 people knew of Peters visit to KimDC's place and yet the PM knows and not only that he knows the number of times and when asked has stated a person not connected to the National party nor any spy agency or government dept or employ of same, who gives him information from time to time which is usually correct and in this case was supplied the information.
All 4 people were committed to a confidentially agreement and the visits took place over two years who does Key know who can watch Peters and or Dotcom and accurately report to the PM about same? This bloody worries me as Key is being really bolishy about it as well.

[Akzle]

True that, but him being deported is not a done thing yet, even though it is bloody obvious our own Proffessional crimial Prime minister wants him gone

Kim might actually be interested in a healthy chin wag with me still though

id just want to shake his hand and offer encouragement.
And ride in the helicopter...

[scott411]

Regardless of what you think about KimDC, am I the only person concerned that only 4 people knew of Peters visit to KimDC's place and yet the PM knows and not only that he knows the number of times and when asked has stated a person not connected to the National party nor any spy agency or government dept or employ of same, who gives him information from time to time which is usually correct and in this case was supplied the information.
All 4 people were committed to a confidentially agreement and the visits took place over two years who does Key know who can watch Peters and or Dotcom and accurately report to the PM about same? This bloody worries me as Key is being really bolishy about it as well.

not really, it was in a number of blog sites a week ago,

i am more worried that Peters would not answer honest questions, and the Greens are already saying he can stay with out letting the court decide first, and that both had been to see him, and then asked questions in the house about it,

[scott411]

True that, but him being deported is not a done thing yet, even though it is bloody obvious our own Proffessional crimial Prime minister wants him gone

Kim might actually be interested in a healthy chin wag with me still though

try him on twitter @kimdotcom

[Akzle]

Regardless of what you think about KimDC, am I the only person concerned that only 4 people knew of Peters visit to KimDC's place and yet the PM knows and not only that he knows the number of times and when asked has stated a person not connected to the National party nor any spy agency or government dept or employ of same, who gives him information from time to time which is usually correct and in this case was supplied the information.
All 4 people were committed to a confidentially agreement and the visits took place over two years who does Key know who can watch Peters and or Dotcom and accurately report to the PM about same? This bloody worries me as Key is being really bolishy about it as well.

jews dude. Welcome to the reality of nz.

Theyre watching us right now.

[ellipsis]

Theyre watching us right now.



...not me, I have a small tin-foil tent behind our sofa...I've moved in permanently...there's only enough room for me and the keyboard...

[phill-k]

not really, it was in a number of blog sites a week ago,

i am more worried that Peters would not answer honest questions, and the Greens are already saying he can stay with out letting the court decide first, and that both had been to see him, and then asked questions in the house about it,

Peters had agreed to keep the meeting with a private NZ citizen private & confidential

The Greens have promised nothing

You mention blogs post the links as I can't find a reference to this and funny that whilst the meetings took place over two years the info has just come out?

Key says his informer provides him with information that is generally correct, no mention of reading it in blogs etc, He - Key - won't name his informer.

What I notice is people seem to bag either Key or Dotcom depending on their political allegiance, I voted for Key twice but have become very concerned about New Zealander's rights and privacy - he's know cancelling passports as well.

[phill-k]

jews dude. Welcome to the reality of nz.

Theyre watching us right now.

hey I know two one was on NCIS and the other I worked with for a while would have happily had sexual relations with both or as Bill would say if not sexual relations just a blow job.

[scott411]

Peters had agreed to keep the meeting with a private NZ citizen private & confidential

The Greens have promised nothing

You mention blogs post the links as I can't find a reference to this and funny that whilst the meetings took place over two years the info has just come out?

Key says his informer provides him with information that is generally correct, no mention of reading it in blogs etc, He - Key - won't name his informer.

What I notice is people seem to bag either Key or Dotcom depending on their political allegiance, I voted for Key twice but have become very concerned about New Zealander's rights and privacy - he's know cancelling passports as well.

it was on www.whaleoil.co.nz last week that Winston had been in there at least 3 times, can't be assed finding the exact link, (rightwing blog i know) but i would assume that the not a national party member that the prime minister says told him would be Cameron Slater,

i have no problems with poeple's passports being cancelled if they are suspected of going to fight for terrorist organisation,

I agree the Dotcom raid was a bit over the top in restrospect, and so was the Ruatoria raids under labour, but i would not want to go into either place and just knock on the door,

Russell Norman said on TV this week that he would seek to have the extradition overruled by the minister if he was in goverment, that scares me more than the couple of cancelled passports,

[BoristheBiter]

Peters had agreed to keep the meeting with a private NZ citizen private & confidential
.

NZ resident only.

wouldn't trust kdc as far as i could throw him and I'd be fucked just lifting him.

So far he has courted every political party NZ has, no not corrupt at all.

[phill-k]

NZ resident only.

wouldn't trust kdc as far as i could throw him and I'd be fucked just lifting him.

So far he has courted every political party NZ has, no not corrupt at all.

Not really sure what you mean, but if Kim is setting out to prevent what happened to him and his family well I support him, remember all he was accused of was assisting with breaches of copyright, you are obviously happy that Key authorised covert monitoring, helicopters, armed police, and it goes on, to effect an arrest of a NZ resident, who hadn't been caught drink driving, running from police, fraud, killing someone or terrorism, his crime was assisting in copyright breach, and we treated him like a terrorist, you are obviously happy with that response at the bequest of the yanks, and would be happy for your sons or daughters to be treated the same way if they download a movie without paying for it.

[phill-k]

it was on www.whaleoil.co.nz (http://www.whaleoil.co.nz) last week that Winston had been in there at least 3 times, can't be assed finding the exact link, (rightwing blog i know) but i would assume that the not a national party member that the prime minister says told him would be Cameron Slater,

i have no problems with poeple's passports being cancelled if they are suspected of going to fight for terrorist organisation,

I agree the Dotcom raid was a bit over the top in restrospect, and so was the Ruatoria raids under labour, but i would not want to go into either place and just knock on the door,

Russell Norman said on TV this week that he would seek to have the extradition overruled by the minister if he was in goverment, that scares me more than the couple of cancelled passports,

Not him as Key states the person is not associated with the National party isn't the blabbermouth the bastard son of the national party chairman

[Akzle]

I voted for Key twice .

You fuking dick.

To the other git:
'terrorist' is subjective. Ie, if you dont bow to your jew paylords and comply with their demands and deal in their currency, youre probably a terrorist.
Refer: israel vs. Everyone else.

[oldrider]

You fuking dick.

To the other git:
'terrorist' is subjective. Ie, if you dont bow to your jew paylords and comply with their demands and deal in their currency, youre probably a terrorist.
Refer: israel (backed by the USA) vs. Everyone else.

Vital correction Akzle!

[BoristheBiter]

Not really sure what you mean, but if Kim is setting out to prevent what happened to him and his family well I support him, remember all he was accused of was assisting with breaches of copyright, you are obviously happy that Key authorised covert monitoring, helicopters, armed police, and it goes on, to effect an arrest of a NZ resident, who hadn't been caught drink driving, running from police, fraud, killing someone or terrorism, his crime was assisting in copyright breach, and we treated him like a terrorist, you are obviously happy with that response at the bequest of the yanks, and would be happy for your sons or daughters to be treated the same way if they download a movie without paying for it.

I meant he is not a NZ citizen but a resident, if he was they couldn't extradite him unless they revoked his passport.

He is accused of crimes related to online piracy, including racketeering, conspiring to commit copyright infringement, and conspiring to commit money laundering.

But yes I would send him packing in a heart beat, he should never been allowed residency.
He is a convcited crimal.

In 1994, he was arrested by German police for trafficking in stolen phone calling card numbers. He was held in custody for a month, released and arrested again on additional hacking charges shortly afterwards. He was eventually convicted of 11 counts of computer fraud, 10 counts of data espionage, and an assortment of other charges. He received a two-year suspended sentence – because he was under age at the time the crimes were committed.[29] The judge in the case said the court viewed his actions as "youthful foolishness."[30]
In 2001, Schmitz bought €375,000 worth of shares of the nearly bankrupt company Letsbuyit.com (de) and subsequently announced his intention to invest €50 million in the company.[31] The announcement caused the share value of Letsbuyit.com to jump[32] and Schmitz cashed out, making a profit of €1.5 million. One commentator suggested that Schmitz may have been ignorant of the legal ramifications of what he had done, since insider trading was not made a crime in Germany until 1995,[29] and until 2002 prosecutors also had to prove the accused had criminal intent.[33]
Schmitz moved to Thailand to avoid investigation[12] where he was subsequently arrested on behalf of German authorities.[30] In response, he allegedly pretended to kill himself online, posting a message on his website that from now on he wished to be known as "His Royal Highness King Kimble the First, Ruler of the Kimpire".[30][34] He was deported back to Germany where he pleaded guilty to embezzlement in November 2003 and, after five months in jail awaiting trial, again received a suspended sentence (of 20 months).[33] After avoiding a prison sentence for a second time, he left Germany and moved to Hong Kong in late 2003.[12]
(wiki)

[phill-k]

Actually whilst the raid on his place and the violation of his civil rights on behalf of the film industry of America is bad enough, the fact we also denied him his liberty for almost six weeks is criminal, he wasn't a terrorist, all he did supposedly was facilitate others but without knowledge to share some fucken movies for christs sake, this has the makings of nazi Germany. His supposed crime was not even against anyone in NZ but we did all that to him.

Frankly I hope he is successful in suing the government and Key and any award for damages is in the 100's of millions, as this has been a disgraceful episode in NZ's history, and don't say he was only a fat German, because if the government will act like this on the behest of the Yanks what real protection do we have as NZer's against a Government who might be persuaded to breach our fundamental rights to privacy, respect, and an justice system that requires our accusers to prove a reasonable standard of guilt.

I ask you this question, have you ever seen such an operation undertaken by the police and co against such organisations like the bikie gangs that destroy others lives through brutality or drugs, seen gang members imprisoned for weeks without a trial or even evidence to suggest wrong doing, remember the evidence against Kim DotCom is still to be provided by the yanks.

[Akzle]

Vital correction Akzle!

well duh, but the Jew S of A is owned by israel. So kinda goes without saying...

[phill-k]

I meant he is not a NZ citizen but a resident, if he was they couldn't extradite him unless they revoked his passport.

He is accused of crimes related to online piracy, including racketeering, conspiring to commit copyright infringement, and conspiring to commit money laundering.

But yes I would send him packing in a heart beat, he should never been allowed residency.
He is a convcited crimal.

In 1994, he was arrested by German police for trafficking in stolen phone calling card numbers. He was held in custody for a month, released and arrested again on additional hacking charges shortly afterwards. He was eventually convicted of 11 counts of computer fraud, 10 counts of data espionage, and an assortment of other charges. He received a two-year suspended sentence – because he was under age at the time the crimes were committed.[29] The judge in the case said the court viewed his actions as "youthful foolishness."[30]
In 2001, Schmitz bought €375,000 worth of shares of the nearly bankrupt company Letsbuyit.com (de) and subsequently announced his intention to invest €50 million in the company.[31] The announcement caused the share value of Letsbuyit.com to jump[32] and Schmitz cashed out, making a profit of €1.5 million. One commentator suggested that Schmitz may have been ignorant of the legal ramifications of what he had done, since insider trading was not made a crime in Germany until 1995,[29] and until 2002 prosecutors also had to prove the accused had criminal intent.[33]
Schmitz moved to Thailand to avoid investigation[12] where he was subsequently arrested on behalf of German authorities.[30] In response, he allegedly pretended to kill himself online, posting a message on his website that from now on he wished to be known as "His Royal Highness King Kimble the First, Ruler of the Kimpire".[30][34] He was deported back to Germany where he pleaded guilty to embezzlement in November 2003 and, after five months in jail awaiting trial, again received a suspended sentence (of 20 months).[33] After avoiding a prison sentence for a second time, he left Germany and moved to Hong Kong in late 2003.[12]
(wiki)

I still don't see your point, at the time of the governments airborne attack on his personal residence, the yanks had offered no actual proof of crime, only allegations, fine we perhaps should follow them up, but do you not have some concerns with the response we were encouraged by the yanks to undertake, was he really a risk to anyone, a flight risk, was his persona such that he could or would disappear at the drop of a hat, did the government act in this way against any of those in the finance industry that fleeced NZer's of their savings, pursued them and imprisoned them without trial, hey no one likes the guy so who cares, but you should because this could happen to you. You obviously want us to treat him in light of his past history, or perhaps because he's fat and rich and German, the government let him in, and by doing so should protect his rights as we all expect them to respect out rights as New Zealander.

[oldrider]

Actually whilst the raid on his place and the violation of his civil rights on behalf of the film industry of America is bad enough, the fact we also denied him his liberty for almost six weeks is criminal, he wasn't a terrorist, all he did supposedly was facilitate others but without knowledge to share some fucken movies for christs sake, this has the makings of nazi Germany. His supposed crime was not even against anyone in NZ but we did all that to him.

Frankly I hope he is successful in suing the government and Key and any award for damages is in the 100's of millions, as this has been a disgraceful episode in NZ's history, and don't say he was only a fat German, because if the government will act like this on the behest of the Yanks what real protection do we have as NZer's against a Government who might be persuaded to breach our fundamental rights to privacy, respect, and an justice system that requires our accusers to prove a reasonable standard of guilt.

I ask you this question, have you ever seen such an operation undertaken by the police and co against such organisations like the bikie gangs that destroy others lives through brutality or drugs, seen gang members imprisoned for weeks without a trial or even evidence to suggest wrong doing, remember the evidence against Kim DotCom is still to be provided by the yanks.

So as a taxpayer you are happy to fork out this money to Dot.com ... Speak for your self money bags I'm fucked if I agree with that crap attitude! :mad:

[bogan]

So as a taxpayer you are happy to fork out this money to Dot.com ... Speak for your self money bags I'm fucked if I agree with that crap attitude! :mad:

I hardley think 100's of millions is right, but reckon the govt should be sent a message, maybe 10mil.

[phill-k]

So as a taxpayer you are happy to fork out this money to Dot.com ... Speak for your self money bags I'm fucked if I agree with that crap attitude! :mad:

In a word yes I'll be happy if our courts find that his rights have been breached, don't worry it won't bother the likes of Key, as soon as NZ sends him down the road he will be gone, not to serve with the united nations but he will fuck off to yank land and begin to collect the favours he's done.

I believe or want to that as a kiwi I have some fundamental rights, and those rights are worth fighting for, and if violated I would hope that through the right processes those responsible for breeching then are made accountable, this is what our forefathers supposedly fought for, a free and just land fair to all without fear or discrimination.

[oldrider]

In a word yes I'll be happy if our courts find that his rights have been breached, don't worry it won't bother the likes of Key, as soon as NZ sends him down the road he will be gone, not to serve with the united nations but he will fuck off to yank land and begin to collect the favours he's done.

I believe or want to that as a kiwi I have some fundamental rights, and those rights are worth fighting for, and if violated I would hope that through the right processes those responsible for breeching then are made accountable, this is what our forefathers supposedly fought for, a free and just land fair to all without fear or discrimination.

Such high moral fibre but "we the taxpayers" are left paying the fucking bill! ... "Unbelievable" a nation full of self satisfied starving peasants! :facepalm:

The government doesn't have any money ... except what they steal off us the taxpayers ... I.E. You and me!

[bogan]

Such high moral fibre but "we the taxpayers" are left paying the fucking bill! ... "Unbelievable" a nation full of self satisfied starving peasants! :facepalm:

Is the admission wrong has been done, but no efforts made to right it, not tantamount to theft? Would you rather have us a nation fed by thieves?

[Akzle]

I hardley think 100's of millions is right, but reckon the govt should be sent a message, maybe 10mil.

taken out of the responsible politicians' pay/lifetime benefits.

[BoristheBiter]

I still don't see your point, at the time of the governments airborne attack on his personal residence, the yanks had offered no actual proof of crime, only allegations, fine we perhaps should follow them up, but do you not have some concerns with the response we were encouraged by the yanks to undertake, was he really a risk to anyone, a flight risk, was his persona such that he could or would disappear at the drop of a hat, did the government act in this way against any of those in the finance industry that fleeced NZer's of their savings, pursued them and imprisoned them without trial, hey no one likes the guy so who cares, but you should because this could happen to you. You obviously want us to treat him in light of his past history, or perhaps because he's fat and rich and German, the government let him in, and by doing so should protect his rights as we all expect them to respect out rights as New Zealander.

The point
1) he is not a NZer
2) he is a convicted criminal,
3) he is a flight risk,
4) extradition proceedings were started by the US.
and before you start talking of evidence you will see it is not need to be detained.

Extradition proceedings
18Request for surrender
(1)A request by an extradition country for the surrender of a person who—
(a)is an extraditable person in relation to that country; and
(b)is, or is suspected of being, in New Zealand or on his or her way to New Zealand,—
must be transmitted to the Minister of Justice.
(2)The request must be made—
(a)by a diplomatic or consular representative, or a Minister, of the country that seeks the person's surrender; or
(b)by such other means as is prescribed in a treaty (if any) in force between New Zealand and the extradition country or in any undertakings between New Zealand and the extradition country.
(3)The request must be accompanied by duly authenticated supporting documents.
(4)In this section, supporting documents, in relation to an extradition offence, means,—
(a)if the offence is an offence of which the person is accused,—
(i)a warrant for the arrest of the person for the offence issued in the extradition country by a court or a Judge or other person having authority under the law of the extradition country to issue it; or
(ii)a copy of such a warrant:
(b)if the offence is an offence of which the person has been convicted, such documents as provide evidence of—
(i)the conviction; and
(ii)the sentence imposed or the intention to impose a sentence (where relevant); and
(iii)the extent to which a sentence imposed has not been carried out (where relevant):
(c)in the case of any offence, a written deposition setting out—
(i)a description of, and the penalty applicable in respect of, the offence; and
(ii)the conduct constituting the offence.

[oldrider]

Is the admission wrong has been done, but no efforts made to right it, not tantamount to theft? Would you rather have us a nation fed by thieves?

NZ is paying out millions every day because of the quality of the thieves we put in place to govern us, we should take more care who we put in there!

All care taken but no responsibility .. Thats their motto and and we are left holding the bill and paying the cheque from our taxes! :weird:

There is only so much we can take and the bottom of the barrel must be getting awful close by now! :mellow:

[phill-k]

Such high moral fibre but "we the taxpayers" are left paying the fucking bill! ... "Unbelievable" a nation full of self satisfied starving peasants! :facepalm:

Not my morals but if justice is to be done it must be done legally, the GCSB (or whatever) broke the law, the search warrant was incorrect and thus the whole operation illegal, the seizing of assets was illegal, the imprisonment by association was likely illegal, need I go on, all to satisfy some rich movie moguls, he wasn't a terrorist, a serial killer, rapist, child molester, nor drunk driver, he owned a storage facility and others were using it to store illegal movies, that belonged to some fucken yanks.

You obviously don't have an issue with the above and so long as the outcome is achieved and this puppet government and its string pullers are satisfied you don't care how the result is achieved

What does a country become when its government and its agencies act beyond or in breech of the law without recourse.

[phill-k]

The point
1) he is not a NZer
2) he is a convicted criminal,
3) he is a flight risk,
4) extradition proceedings were started by the US.
and before you start talking of evidence you will see it is not need to be detained.

Extradition proceedings
18Request for surrender
(1)A request by an extradition country for the surrender of a person who—
(a)is an extraditable person in relation to that country; and
(b)is, or is suspected of being, in New Zealand or on his or her way to New Zealand,—
must be transmitted to the Minister of Justice.
(2)The request must be made—
(a)by a diplomatic or consular representative, or a Minister, of the country that seeks the person's surrender; or
(b)by such other means as is prescribed in a treaty (if any) in force between New Zealand and the extradition country or in any undertakings between New Zealand and the extradition country.
(3)The request must be accompanied by duly authenticated supporting documents.
(4)In this section, supporting documents, in relation to an extradition offence, means,—
(a)if the offence is an offence of which the person is accused,—
(i)a warrant for the arrest of the person for the offence issued in the extradition country by a court or a Judge or other person having authority under the law of the extradition country to issue it; or
(ii)a copy of such a warrant:
(b)if the offence is an offence of which the person has been convicted, such documents as provide evidence of—
(i)the conviction; and
(ii)the sentence imposed or the intention to impose a sentence (where relevant); and
(iii)the extent to which a sentence imposed has not been carried out (where relevant):
(c)in the case of any offence, a written deposition setting out—
(i)a description of, and the penalty applicable in respect of, the offence; and
(ii)the conduct constituting the offence.

I don't fucken care about all that shit I care about the fact our government and its agencies in acting on the yanks unproved accusations broke new zealand law and carried out a raid the likes of which has not been seen before in NZ all to catch a man who had a storage facility that others kept stolen movies in.

[Akzle]

All care taken but no responsibility ..


all take and no damn care!

[bogan]

NZ is paying out millions every day because of the quality of the thieves we put in place to govern us, we should take more care who we put in there!

All care taken but no responsibility .. Thats their motto and and we are left holding the bill and paying the cheque from our taxes! :weird:

There is only so much we can take and the bottom of the barrel must be getting awful close by now! :mellow:

We should, but how do plan on getting that message to the people if you don't hold the nation to account over its wrongdoings? The government should be an extension of the people, as it is elected by the people; when it fails, should the people not bear some responsibility as well?

[Akzle]

We should, but how do plan on getting that message to the people if you don't hold the nation to account over its wrongdoings? The government should be an extension of the people, as it is elected by the people; when it fails, should the people not bear some responsibility as well?

only those that voted for em.

[oldrider]

only those that voted for em.

True!

NZ gets the government that it deserves unfortunately!

Can't blame the politicians they just fashion themselves to be what the voters want but the voters don't give a fuck and will vote the way the media leads them!

What a screwed up fucking country this is! :doh:

They don't mind paying through the nose for all the fuckups! :wacko: Because it's easier than thinking "before" an election! :scratch:

[puddytat]

The reason Russell Norman went to see KDC for you ignoramuses information, was to plead with him not to start a Party which is more likely to take votes from the Left than the Right.
No conspiracy there.

[BoristheBiter]

I don't fucken care about all that shit I care about the fact our government and its agencies in acting on the yanks unproved accusations broke new zealand law and carried out a raid the likes of which has not been seen before in NZ all to catch a man who had a storage facility that others kept stolen movies in.

Well you should that IS the law you are ranting about.

Did the GCSB fuck up? yes,
Did the cops go in heavy handed? in hindsight yes, but he has form on fleeing.
has he broken any laws (since the last time)? that's the million dollar question that only he knows and we will have to wait for the courts to decide.

But i get it, you love KDC and assume he has done nothing wrong and want to be his buddy, fare enough I'll let you carry on.

[BoristheBiter]

The reason Russell Norman went to see KDC for you ignoramuses information, was to plead with him not to start a Party which is more likely to take votes from the Left than the Right.
No conspiracy there.

so it had nothing to do with the betterment of NZers lives but to protect his job.

[phill-k]

Well you should that IS the law you are ranting about.

Did the GCSB fuck up? yes,
Did the cops go in heavy handed? in hindsight yes, but he has form on fleeing.
has he broken any laws (since the last time)? that's the million dollar question that only he knows and we will have to wait for the courts to decide.

But i get it, you love KDC and assume he has done nothing wrong and want to be his buddy, fare enough I'll let you carry on.

Hey don't bother replying you obviously are not reading and understanding all I am saying. In a nutshell I do not like the way our country is going, the Government initiated - Key signed the raid off - a raid on a new zealand residents home which was fundamentally illegal, I don't care who the guy is he is a new zealand resident and the government agencies incompetence and inability to get things legally correct will not only cost this country in compensation never mind that the tactics employed did not equal the possible charges, as I've already said We are seeing a slow creeping move on behalf of the state to diminishing NZ citizens rights, I don't expect you to understand that as you have ably demonstrated in your response above that because Kim is a fat german with a lot of money we can treat him anyway we like, he has been convicted and paid his penance for his past crimes, after all our government also granted him his residency and along with it the same rights as I have.

What we now have is a man rightly pissed off, but unlike most of us has the ability to extract his own pound of flesh and he is going to do so, I don't much like the guy, but then once I liked John Key saw him as a new beginning in NZ politics, younger generation about to get rid of the cronyism within his party, 6 years on and he to has become just the same. Look at all the politicians beating a line to kim's door, not for our good but to serve their own self interest. - I'm out of here should have known attempting a rational debate on a situation developing in NZ was pointless, perhaps when Key invokes the same association legislation as Queensland has done and starts stopping motorcyclists purely because two or more are riding together you will begin to understand where I am coming from.

[MisterD]

Regardless of what you think about KimDC, am I the only person concerned that only 4 people knew of Peters visit to KimDC's place

1. Peters
2. Krim Dotcom
3. The taxi driver
.
.
12,13 and 14 - The people on the next table in the Green Parrot when Peters was pissed and boasting.

Are we starting to see where your conspiracy theory might break down?

Never mind blogs, it was in the gossip column in the Herald ferchrissakes.:facepalm:

[Banditbandit]

True but how amusing would that be if your "chosen" (preferred/whatever) leader was the prime minister? :confused:

Umm .. who do you think my preferred Prime Minister would be ??? .. I'm just curious because I have no idea who that might be myself ..

[Banditbandit]

Regardless of what you think about KimDC, am I the only person concerned that only 4 people knew of Peters visit to KimDC's place and yet the PM knows and not only that he knows the number of times and when asked has stated a person not connected to the National party nor any spy agency or government dept or employ of same, who gives him information from time to time which is usually correct and in this case was supplied the information.


No, you are not alone. That's a major concern ...



i have no problems with people's passports being cancelled if they are suspected of going to fight for terrorist organisation,



"Terrorist organisation" is a subjective judgement - I know New Zealanders who went off to Israel to fight for the army and "kill arabs" - did they get their passports revoked ??? Hell no - but I suppose they are fighting for a terrorist country, not just a terrorist organisation ...

The democratically elected Government of Palestine has been branded a "terrorist organisation" by Israel and it's allies ... should we stop people supporting a democratically elected Government ??? How can what the world is demanding (democratic elections) be wrong ???


well duh, but the Jew S of A is owned by israel. So kinda goes without saying...

This could be amusing - owned by Israel and massively in debt to China .. the leader of the free world? Or is that the expensive world ??


The reason Russell Norman went to see KDC for you ignoramuses information, was to plead with him not to start a Party which is more likely to take votes from the Left than the Right.
No conspiracy there.

KdotC is not even close to Green - he's further right than John Key - he's more likely to take votes from the young disaffected right .. which would then place the majority of votes with the Labour block ..

[Katman]

and before you start talking of evidence you will see it is not need to be detained.


Really? Is that the sort of country you want to live in?

[BoristheBiter]

Hey don't bother replying you obviously are not reading and understanding all I am saying. In a nutshell I do not like the way our country is going, the Government initiated - Key signed the raid off - a raid on a new zealand residents home which was fundamentally illegal, I don't care who the guy is he is a new zealand resident and the government agencies incompetence and inability to get things legally correct will not only cost this country in compensation never mind that the tactics employed did not equal the possible charges, as I've already said We are seeing a slow creeping move on behalf of the state to diminishing NZ citizens rights, I don't expect you to understand that as you have ably demonstrated in your response above that because Kim is a fat german with a lot of money we can treat him anyway we like, he has been convicted and paid his penance for his past crimes, after all our government also granted him his residency and along with it the same rights as I have.

What we now have is a man rightly pissed off, but unlike most of us has the ability to extract his own pound of flesh and he is going to do so, I don't much like the guy, but then once I liked John Key saw him as a new beginning in NZ politics, younger generation about to get rid of the cronyism within his party, 6 years on and he to has become just the same. Look at all the politicians beating a line to kim's door, not for our good but to serve their own self interest. - I'm out of here should have known attempting a rational debate on a situation developing in NZ was pointless, perhaps when Key invokes the same association legislation as Queensland has done and starts stopping motorcyclists purely because two or more are riding together you will begin to understand where I am coming from.

No I do understand, just completely disagree with you.
Other than the other thread, where i just like winding you up by saying "fat german", I have not once said anything about it.
Your past is always used when you are being dealt with.

I think you do need to read up on the difference between a citizen and a resident as that, under the extradition act makes all the difference on what is needed to extradite someone.

Rational debate? could say the same about your "one eyed" responses.

Watched Motorway patrol last night, guys is speeding, driving while disqualified, gets his car impounded and then blames the cop for it and can't see what all the fuss is about and says he has done nothing wrong.
funny how people caught for doing wrong always plead their innocence.

[BoristheBiter]

Really? Is that the sort of country you want to live in?

read comment above.

[oldrider]

Umm .. who do you think my preferred Prime Minister would be ??? .. I'm just curious because I have no idea who that might be myself ..

It was just a question? --- He's not mine either but he is better than what else is on offer, unfortunately! :facepalm:

[Banditbandit]

It was just a question? --- He's not mine either but he is better than what else is on offer, unfortunately! :facepalm:

OK .. so now we know it's a "he" ... do you want to narrow that down even further ??? (I'm starting to think I might prefer Akzle .. he'd be so wasted he wouldn't do a fucking thing .. which would be great - totally minimalist Government - closing in on that Anarchist dream)

[mashman]

Watched Motorway patrol last night, guys is speeding, driving while disqualified, gets his car impounded and then blames the cop for it and can't see what all the fuss is about and says he has done nothing wrong.
funny how people caught for doing wrong always plead their innocence.


Really? Is that the sort of country you want to live in?

Yes, I believe he does... coz he's a good little sheep.

[MisterD]

he's more likely to take votes from the young disaffected right .. which would then place the majority of votes with the Labour block ..

Young dissaffected right...hmm, well by my calculations, that's a demographic of precisely zero votes.

[TheDemonLord]

Are we restarting debate in this thread?

Excuse me while I get my fast-typing Fingers on

[BoristheBiter]

Yes, I believe he does... coz he's a good little sheep.

What so in your thinking we should just do what we want.

[phill-k]

No I do understand, just completely disagree with you.
Other than the other thread, where i just like winding you up by saying "fat german", I have not once said anything about it.
Your past is always used when you are being dealt with.

I think you do need to read up on the difference between a citizen and a resident as that, under the extradition act makes all the difference on what is needed to extradite someone.

Rational debate? could say the same about your "one eyed" responses.

Watched Motorway patrol last night, guys is speeding, driving while disqualified, gets his car impounded and then blames the cop for it and can't see what all the fuss is about and says he has done nothing wrong.
funny how people caught for doing wrong always plead their innocence.

I am not debating the rights or wrongs of a case of extradition, the required level of guilt or innocence will be determined in our courts and from there the decision will be made as to whether he is deported - although the fact that the yanks don't have to provide details of their evidence to his council further gives me concerns as to our "over" action in detaining the man. What I am concerned about is the level of response the fact so much of the operation was inadequately planned - read illegal and the type of crime involved, if he had been a part of the group that attacked and killed all those in the 911 incident fine go in as we did but his crime as far as I'm concerned is such that no ones life was at risk by such crime, and that in NZ history we have not as yet seen a person accused of stealing movies kill people in a effort to escape. The example you give as regards the person on TV last night and I did not see it involves a persons behaviour which could ultimately lead to an innocent person being killed - your son or daughter perhaps - I see that persons crime as warranting greater response that Kim Dotcom's but the driver also has the right to protest his innocence, the police must prove his guilt, in a legal manner, but yes lets give them all the best technology to do so. John Key has friends (he has stated on TV3 the information on Peters was given to him by a person) that keep him informed about others movements, was able to determine Peters visited Kim 3 times in 2 years, why did the police not just wait for Kim to go out for a drive, do a stop and arrest him, the boy was hardly likely to be able to out run a copper. We in turn would then not be up for millions of dollars in compensation, and if god forbid he is not extradited we will be paying and that outcome will no doubt bring about a change of government unless Act and Doone pull up their socks.

[mashman]

What so in your thinking we should just do what we want.

Yes........

[BoristheBiter]

Yes........

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2qhmZZxqphg/UfW72FhYobI/AAAAAAAADrE/UQNb0Hp7nec/s640/tumblr_mkrjf4C3oL1rj8nzio1_500.png

[BoristheBiter]

I am not debating the rights or wrongs of a case of extradition, the required level of guilt or innocence will be determined in our courts and from there the decision will be made as to whether he is deported - although the fact that the yanks don't have to provide details of their evidence to his council further gives me concerns as to our "over" action in detaining the man. What I am concerned about is the level of response the fact so much of the operation was inadequately planned - read illegal and the type of crime involved, if he had been a part of the group that attacked and killed all those in the 911 incident fine go in as we did but his crime as far as I'm concerned is such that no ones life was at risk by such crime, and that in NZ history we have not as yet seen a person accused of stealing movies kill people in a effort to escape. The example you give as regards the person on TV last night and I did not see it involves a persons behaviour which could ultimately lead to an innocent person being killed - your son or daughter perhaps - I see that persons crime as warranting greater response that Kim Dotcom's but the driver also has the right to protest his innocence, the police must prove his guilt, in a legal manner, but yes lets give them all the best technology to do so. John Key has friends (he has stated on TV3 the information on Peters was given to him by a person) that keep him informed about others movements, was able to determine Peters visited Kim 3 times in 2 years, why did the police not just wait for Kim to go out for a drive, do a stop and arrest him, the boy was hardly likely to be able to out run a copper. We in turn would then not be up for millions of dollars in compensation, and if god forbid he is not extradited we will be paying and that outcome will no doubt bring about a change of government unless Act and Doone pull up their socks.

There are a few dead cops because the person they went to see were classed as low risk.
If labour get in because of this it will just prove how fucking stupid the general public of NZ are.

And i think we will leave it at that. Have a nice day.

[scott411]

There are a few dead cops because the person they went to see were classed as low risk.
If labour get in because of this it will just prove how fucking stupid the general public of NZ are.

And i think we will leave it at that. Have a nice day.

agree totally, the Ruatoria and DOtcom raids were over the top in retrospect, but the Napier incident that ended in a dead cop and a long standoff was far to light, i know which way i would prefer the police to take,

[Banditbandit]

Young dissaffected right...hmm, well by my calculations, that's a demographic of precisely zero votes.

I think you are too limited in your concept of the "young disaffected right" ... I would certainly put these people into that category ...


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_H38HBZDfICc/SuPpy9UnvSI/AAAAAAAAA_E/NdogabzLhXE/s400/nznf1.jpg

Tho' I would suspect they would not vote for KdotC ...

I think people may well be surprised at the vote he attracts - some of us may well be surprised at how low he polls .. and some may well be surprised at how high he polls .. I am sure we will find out later this year ...

I would consider voting for him .. never seriously but only as a protest/humour vote ... there's no-one I want to vote FOR - so a humorous vote is an option ..

[MisterD]

I think you are too limited in your concept of the "young disaffected right" ... I would certainly put these people into that category ...

People who idolise German National Socialists...not "Right" in any sense of the word, no matter how successfully generations of lefty media have built the myth that idiots like this are somehow related to ordinary conservative righties.

Their UK bretheren steal more votes of the Labour Party than anyone else.

[The Reibz]

Winston (motherfuckin) Peters all the way.

[mashman]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2qhmZZxqphg/UfW72FhYobI/AAAAAAAADrE/UQNb0Hp7nec/s640/tumblr_mkrjf4C3oL1rj8nzio1_500.png

What? You mean you don't do what you want? Even the things that you don't want to do you choose to do if you end up doing them. T'would seem that the image you attached, albeit a fuckin funny one, is more a reflection of yourself as you don't recognise that you're acting in that way. That you choose to accept what is commonly referred to as "the law" means that you've also gone the full Downey.


agree totally, the Ruatoria and DOtcom raids were over the top in retrospect, but the Napier incident that ended in a dead cop and a long standoff was far to light, i know which way i would prefer the police to take,

I agree... however those cops would have been alive if cannabis were legal. So whilst I agree that there will be occasion for the cops to be armed to the teeth when investigating what is referred to as a crime, there needs to be a fuckin good reason to go knocking on someone's door in the first place. I don't class drug possession/dealing as a crime, they should not have been knocking on that door. In this case, I blame the lawmakers putting the cops in that position.

[Banditbandit]

People who idolise German National Socialists...not "Right" in any sense of the word, no matter how successfully generations of lefty media have built the myth that idiots like this are somehow related to ordinary conservative righties.

Their UK bretheren steal more votes of the Labour Party than anyone else.

Names mean fuck all ... the national Socialist parties were all fascist .. and you know it ... even if you use the double axis analysis .. they are authoritarian right .. not even authoritarian left ..

Yes, working classes can be more right wing than the middle and ruling clases ...

It's going to be an amusing election any way you look at it .. unless you're serious about it all - as some here are and will be ..

[MisterD]

Names mean fuck all ... the national Socialist parties were all fascist .. and you now it ... even if you use the double axis analysis .. they are authoritarian right .. not even authoritarian left ..

Fascist =/= right wing. They may have taken some Right Wing positions, but they equally have many left wing aspects. Right is generally accepted to be small-government, free market, personal responsibility and user pays...these are antipathetic to Fascists.



It's going to be an amusing election any way you look at it .. unless you're serious about it all - as some here are and will be ..

If being shit-scared of the idea of a Labour/Green/Winston First/Maori Party/Harawira coalition is serious, then yes, I'm serious about it.

[BoristheBiter]

What? You mean you don't do what you want? Even the things that you don't want to do you choose to do if you end up doing them. T'would seem that the image you attached, albeit a fuckin funny one, is more a reflection of yourself as you don't recognise that you're acting in that way. That you choose to accept what is commonly referred to as "the law" means that you've also gone the full Downey.

you know fine and well what meant.

I agree... however those cops would have been alive if cannabis were legal. So whilst I agree that there will be occasion for the cops to be armed to the teeth when investigating what is referred to as a crime, there needs to be a fuckin good reason to go knocking on someone's door in the first place. I don't class drug possession/dealing as a crime, they should not have been knocking on that door. In this case, I blame the lawmakers putting the cops in that position.

but it's not. end of story.

[mashman]

you know fine and well what meant.

but it's not. end of story.

I do. Not sure you do, hence the response :D

[BoristheBiter]

I do. Not sure you do, hence the response :D

It's called semantics.

[mashman]

It's called semantics.

It's called real choice. Does the law deal in semantics?

[Banditbandit]

Fascist =/= right wing. They may have taken some Right Wing positions, but they equally have many left wing aspects. Right is generally accepted to be small-government, free market, personal responsibility and user pays...these are antipathetic to Fascists.

Hmm .. that sounds pretty Liberal to me ... and yes, the Liberals are right wing .. but not all right-wing are Liberals. I would dispute "generally accepted" .. that may be what the NZ propaganda generators want you to believe .. but there are plenty of right wing dictators around the world who would not fit that description ...




If being shit-scared of the idea of a Labour/Green/Winston First/Maori Party/Harawira coalition is serious, then yes, I'm serious about it.

:killingme you're shit scared of a bunch of liberal wimps ... ?????

Don't buy into the fear-mongers .. National has increased our national debt hugely - after promising not too ... Labour gave us the deregulated economy ... DonKey trades our principles and values for cash money ... who's the scariest ????

PS .. I hope the NSA are not watching your posts ... they will be rubbing their hands in glee - another one who has bought the propaganda line .. and DonKey will smirk and say "not here .."

Hone is never going to be in that coalition ... what's scarey about the Māori Party ??? Winnie's just off the wall ... and Labour ??? Haven't been scarey since oh - before Holyoake ...

[puddytat]

so it had nothing to do with the betterment of NZers lives but to protect his job.

Whats the difference between what Normans done & what Key is doing with all & sundry.....?

Morals & Ethics.

[Akzle]

I'm starting to think I might prefer Akzle .. he'd be so wasted he wouldn't do a fucking thing .. which would be great - totally minimalist Government - closing in on that Anarchist dream

i promise you, if i become leader, i will delegate like a motherfucker, and use the free air travel to have at least two hookers a day in different parts of the country!


Fascist =/= right wing.

have a ≠.

you can do it by holding the windows key on your keyboard and typing 2260 on the numpad.
(i assume you're using windows and have a keyboard with a numpad)

[BoristheBiter]

Whats the difference between what Normans done & what Key is doing with all & sundry.....?

Morals & Ethics.

Nothing, so don't make him out to holier than thou.

[BoristheBiter]

who's the scariest ????
.

Helen.


10chars

[BoristheBiter]

It's called real choice. Does the law deal in semantics?

What are we talking about?

[puddytat]

Nothing, so don't make him out to holier than thou.

Not making him out holier than me, but he's a far sight holier than puppet man.

[BoristheBiter]

Not making him out holier than me, but he's a far sight holier than puppet man.

Only from your point of view, from mine he is a useless imbecile.

[Tigadee]

Kim Dot Com:
http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/a6w9Gw9_460s.jpg

[Banditbandit]

who's the scariest ????




Helen.


10chars


So - what did Helen do that scared you so much ??? What was the results of the last Labour Government that proved you were right to be scared ??

[imdying]

I would desperately love to find a way to contact The manGo hard man: https://twitter.com/KimDotcom

[BoristheBiter]

So - what did Helen do that scared you so much ??? What was the results of the last Labour Government that proved you were right to be scared ??

You're living in it, it should be self evident.
IMO it started way back when everyone thought neo-liberalism was a good idea.

And you have seen her photo right?

[oldrider]

Nothing in fact, mainly because of the people that get involved!

While the theoretical divergences are massive, what are the real life differences in communism vs. fascism?

Not too much in practice to date.

Why?

Because no socialist system in real life has ever actually resembled socialism as it exists in theory. There has never been a socialist government without either a solitary leader with total power or a small oligarchy of rulers. The social classes were never eliminated. The resources did not properly distribute. People went hungry.

The theory behind socialism does not recognize the full concept of what “need” is to the majority of human beings. One thing that many human beings need is autonomy and freedom. Whereas in theory, no social classes would mean that people could make their own choices, in real “socialistic” states, people have been educated according to what the state considered their gifts and been placed in jobs accordingly, whether or not it was what they wanted or truly excelled at.

Furthermore, the abolition of religion and property is a restriction of individual expression, in line with fascistic ideals—though in a fascist economy, the two would simply be regulated.

This is why it is impossible to distinguish a real life difference between countries like Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. Both operated most closely in line with fascist ideals and political structures, despite the fact that the Soviet Union went under the label of socialist and bitterly opposed its competing fascist state, Nazi Germany.

[rustyrobot]

While the theoretical divergences are massive, what are the real life differences in communism vs. fascism?

The tragic irony being that the fascists are usually at least upfront about what they are doing.

[Banditbandit]

Nothing in fact, mainly because of the people that get involved!

(Massive deletion)

This is why it is impossible to distinguish a real life difference between countries like Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. Both operated most closely in line with fascist ideals and political structures, despite the fact that the Soviet Union went under the label of socialist and bitterly opposed its competing fascist state, Nazi Germany.

You are confusing Totalitarianism with Communism and Fascism and you are confusing Socialism with Communism ..

I agree with most of what you say about the realities of so-called communist countries ... they have never lined up with the theory ...

First off all, Communism is a step in the path - which goes from a Capitalist state, to a Socialist State, to a Communist State to the withering away of the state ... and the establishment of what Marx, unfortunately, called the Dictatorship of the Proletariat - which is best seen in contemporary terms as a consensus-based Anarchy. (Historic Materialism has been proved wrong, even if the hard line Marxists do not accept that. If people thought about it, Historic Materialism was flawed at the start.)

Fascism on the other hand, is an end in itself ...

As above, Socialism is an interim form of state between Capitalism and Communism, which is itself only an interim form of state ...

Fascism aims to establish a totalitarian state ... Marx's theory aims to establish a consensus-based Anarchy ... the reality, as you suggest, has been somewhat different.

Fascism has a strong focus on nationalism and the rebuilding of the state, usually under a strong leader ... the Marxist dialectic has (or had) a strong focus on internationalism, emphasising the links between workers across the world ...

Fascism emphasises the need to subjugate the individual to the state - the Marxist Dialectic emphasises the freedom of the individual from Capitalist control, and eventually abolishes the "state" in favour of the consensus-based Anarchy .. In such a society there would be no "state" to force people to learn for jobs they did not want ...

Now, before you all hit the roof - I do not subscribe to the Marxist Dialectic - I certainly subscribe to large parts of the Marxian analysis of the social conditions we live under - But I strongly disagree with the solutions offered by the Marxist Dialectic ... and largely because. as you point out, NONE of them have succeeded - they are all abject failures .. and for all the reasons you point out .. and others ...

But mainly because Power corrupts, or Power attracts the corruptible ... and until a society arrives at the consensus-based Anarchy there are always positions of power - and corruptible people hold those positions ... or become corrupted by them ... and history does prove that people do not give up power .. they have to be forced into it ...

[MisterD]

Communist dialectic?

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/vZ9myHhpS9s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[mashman]

Interesting

But mainly because Power corrupts, or Power attracts the corruptible ... and until a society arrives at the consensus-based Anarchy there are always positions of power - and corruptible people hold those positions ... or become corrupted by them ... and history does prove that people do not give up power .. they have to be forced into it ...

So Prof... or is it Dr... What is the failure of the corrupt? Why does that corruption fail society?

[ellipsis]

...a Marxist govt would be just what this sad political environment we have here needs...would be worth turning on the TV for the news then...

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/H3FZ_jtDMVg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Banditbandit]

So Prof... or is it Dr... What is the failure of the corrupt? Why does that corruption fail society?

It's ME .. titles are elitist bullshit - especially in academia ... which is full of bullshit artists ...

Are you asking theoretical or practical questions ?

[Banditbandit]

...a Marxist govt would be just what this sad political environment we have here needs...would be worth turning on the TV for the news then...




Hey .. our system is at least amusing ... a Marxist Government would be so fucking earnest ... Have you ever met a Marxist with a sense of humour ??? I haven't ..

[mashman]

It's ME .. titles are elitist bullshit - especially in academia ... which is full of bullshit artists ...

Are you asking theoretical or practical questions ?

I meant nothing by it... wouldn't have read anything into it either, Dr, CEO, Captain, Lord, Sensei etc... meh. I do take your point though.

Dealers choice... but both would be nice. Man gotta learn n all that.

[Banditbandit]

So Prof... or is it Dr... What is the failure of the corrupt? Why does that corruption fail society?


I meant nothing by it... wouldn't have read anything into it either, Dr, CEO, Captain, Lord, Sensei etc... meh. I do take your point though.

Dealers choice... but both would be nice. Man gotta learn n all that.

OK .. from a practical point of view here's my non-sectarian view (means I believe it applies to al politicos )

I find people who want to be in charge to be pretty arrogant to start with - who do they think they are to make decisions which affect all our lives? Do they seriously think they know best ?? Are they in a privileged position to know what is the right thing for all of us? How arrogant ...

Secondly, there are major forces acting in our society, such as the capitalist lobbies (Business Round Table being one) and the perceived need to have a "thriving economy" or to "make progress". Neither of these are based on anything other than the need to selll more consumer goods, or the created needs of the business sector

These sectors are well practised at capturing politicos ... one way o do this is to convince people (voters) that those are real needs (look at how many here subscribe to those ideas, generated by the propaganda system) and then if the politics do not do what these sectorial interests want, they convince the voters to boot them out - so the politicos cave in to these power groups because they want to hang on to power and privilege.

There's another group that having got into power the politics become addicted to getting things to happen their way ... anything to stay in power ... including working with Winnie Peters, attacking the value of Key's house ... promising tax cuts ... all the shit we see them do ..

And then there's the real fuckers, like Stalin and Hitler, who are just plain nasty and enforce their will with two choices - do what I say or die

And there are the real corrupted ones, like Ferdinand Marcos, who are in it for the money ..

They're human beings .. which, in the end, is a pretty nasty bred of animal ... greedy and murderous ...

[Quasievil]

I find people who want to be in charge to be pretty arrogant to start with - who do they think they are to make decisions which affect all our lives? Do they seriously think they know best ?? Are they in a privileged position to know what is the right thing for all of us? How arrogant ...



They possibly think they are "the people" voted in by you???????

[Banditbandit]

They possibly think they are "the people" voted in by you???????

Jeez .. the only ones who ever got into power that I voted for was Roger Douglas and his mates - and I regretted it by the end of the first week ... what a fuck up that was ... (I've NEVER voted Labour since ...)

[Quasievil]

Jeez .. the only ones who ever got into power that I voted for was Roger Douglas and his mates - and I regretted it by the end of the first week ... what a fuck up that was ... (I've NEVER voted Labour since ...)

I agree, I saw an interesting perspective on TV last night, albeit a repeat about Neo Liberisim it certainly had me thinking about politics.
Trying to find a political party that works for the good of people without hidden agendas is not a simple task, especially given the choice we currently have available.
I will vote for National this year........as usual, but I am concerned about the wealth gap increasing in NZ and the issues that arise out of it.

[BoristheBiter]

I agree, I saw an interesting perspective on TV last night, albeit a repeat about Neo Liberisim it certainly had me thinking about politics.
Trying to find a political party that works for the good of people without hidden agendas is not a simple task, especially given the choice we currently have available.
I will vote for National this year........as usual, but I am concerned about the wealth gap increasing in NZ and the issues that arise out of it.

The hardest thing is who will they need to get into power and what deals will need to be done.

What we vote for is not always what you get.
Look at the first term, going in they said they will do away with the Maori seats and look at changing MMP if we wanted it.
Maori seats are still there and the wording and choices of the referendum were written so the only choice was to vote to keep it.

[Banditbandit]

Why the fuck don't the silly fuckers - who agree about more things than this disagree on - fucking sit down and form a fucking grand coalition ???

Seems to be the obvious answer really ...

Then they would not need the smaller parties ever again ...

The only question then is the PM Silent T or the Wideboy Trader ???

[Quasievil]

The hardest thing is who will they need to get into power and what deals will need to be done.

What we vote for is not always what you get.
Look at the first term, going in they said they will do away with the Maori seats and look at changing MMP if we wanted it.
Maori seats are still there and the wording and choices of the referendum were written so the only choice was to vote to keep it.

Oh what would you know Boris , fuck off !!!

anyway, no I agree with you, MMP is an arse, back room deals are done for reasons of getting into power, that alone is an issue.

[Banditbandit]

Look at the first term, going in they said they will do away with the Maori seats and look at changing MMP if we wanted it.
Maori seats are still there and the wording and choices of the referendum were written so the only choice was to vote to keep it.

Yeah mate .. there's the corruption right there .

But be careful about the Maori seats - if you do away with them now, when we are in the majority and all MPs are Māori there might not be any Pākehā seats ... and you won't have a good argument for them either ...

[TheDemonLord]

Yeah mate .. there's the corruption right there .

But be careful about the Maori seats - if you do away with them now, when we are in the majority and all MPs are Māori there might not be any Pākehā seats ... and you won't have a good argument for them either ...

if all the Best (in terms for the people, not for themselves) MPs where Maori, and there was not a single Pakeha in parliment, I wouldn't care....

[Quasievil]

if all the Best (in terms for the people, not for themselves) MPs where Maori, and there was not a single Pakeha in parliment, I wouldn't care....

Clearly then you arent interested in all cultures being represented in your government. Fair Nough, but It would never happen .

[BoristheBiter]

Yeah mate .. there's the corruption right there .

But be careful about the Maori seats - if you do away with them now, when we are in the majority and all MPs are Māori there might not be any Pākehā seats ... and you won't have a good argument for them either ...

:killingme yeah good one. Could you see Maori letting there be white only seats let alone getting their shit together.

I can't see 18% of the population controlling 100% of the government.

[BoristheBiter]

if all the Best (in terms for the people, not for themselves) MPs where Maori, and there was not a single Pakeha in parliment, I wouldn't care....

I think you would, or soon would be.

[Banditbandit]

:killingme yeah good one. Could you see Maori letting there be white only seats let alone getting their shit together.


I won't respond seriously to racist shit ... Pākehā have not got their shit together either ... and it only takes 62 people to take over the Government ... not a whole fucking population ...


I can't see 18% of the population controlling 100% of the government.

That's true now - but what about when the Polynesian population (Maori and Pasifika) is at 50% and above - in say about 36 years time, or 12 elections away ??

[Ocean1]

But be careful about the Maori seats - if you do away with them now, when we are in the majority and all MPs are Māori there might not be any Pākehā seats ... and you won't have a good argument for them either ...

You're not actually suggesting there's Pakeha seats now are you?

[mashman]

OK .. from a practical point of view here's my non-sectarian view (means I believe it applies to al politicos )

I find people who want to be in charge to be pretty arrogant to start with - who do they think they are to make decisions which affect all our lives? Do they seriously think they know best ?? Are they in a privileged position to know what is the right thing for all of us? How arrogant ...

Secondly, there are major forces acting in our society, such as the capitalist lobbies (Business Round Table being one) and the perceived need to have a "thriving economy" or to "make progress". Neither of these are based on anything other than the need to selll more consumer goods, or the created needs of the business sector

These sectors are well practised at capturing politicos ... one way o do this is to convince people (voters) that those are real needs (look at how many here subscribe to those ideas, generated by the propaganda system) and then if the politics do not do what these sectorial interests want, they convince the voters to boot them out - so the politicos cave in to these power groups because they want to hang on to power and privilege.

There's another group that having got into power the politics become addicted to getting things to happen their way ... anything to stay in power ... including working with Winnie Peters, attacking the value of Key's house ... promising tax cuts ... all the shit we see them do ..

And then there's the real fuckers, like Stalin and Hitler, who are just plain nasty and enforce their will with two choices - do what I say or die

And there are the real corrupted ones, like Ferdinand Marcos, who are in it for the money ..

They're human beings .. which, in the end, is a pretty nasty bred of animal ... greedy and murderous ...

Interestingly close to home... thanks.

[Banditbandit]

You're not actually suggesting there's Pakeha seats now are you?

No - I'm suggesting that when Polynesian candidates win all the general seats, then people may well be asking for specific Maori seats .. on the basis that they are not represented properly in Parliament

[mashman]

Trying to find a political party that works for the good of people without hidden agendas is not a simple task, especially given the choice we currently have available.
I will vote for National this year........as usual, but I am concerned about the wealth gap increasing in NZ and the issues that arise out of it.

:facepalm:... don't vote then. You do know that that's an option, right?

[BoristheBiter]

I won't respond seriously to racist shit ... Pākehā have not got their shit together either ... and it only takes 62 people to take over the Government ... not a whole fucking population ...

Sit down BB, have a beer, not what I meant.

I do think it takes a lot more than 62 people.



That's true now - but what about when the Polynesian population (Maori and Pasifika) is at 50% and above - in say about 36 years time, or 12 elections away ??

The Asian population is growing faster than every other ethnicity.

[bogan]

The Asian population is growing faster than every other ethnicity.

而且他们比油石娘聪明很多了。

[Ocean1]

No - I'm suggesting that when Polynesian candidates win all the general seats, then people may well be asking for specific Maori seats .. on the basis that they are not represented properly in Parliament

Maori aren't Polynesian, now?

I do believe you're changing your fiction to fit your bitch-of-the-day, dude.

[Tigadee]

The Asian population is growing faster than every other ethnicity.

Shit, I'd better brush up on my Mandarin! :(

[rustyrobot]

Maori aren't Polynesian, now?

I do believe you're changing your fiction to fit your bitch-of-the-day, dude.

You Dutch people are all the same

[bogan]

You Dutch people are all the same

Typical illogical humans.

[ellipsis]

You Dutch people are all the same

...what?...are they all that fast on skates...

[rustyrobot]

...what?...are they all that fast on skates...

oh yes and they like to drive their BMW on the autobahn

also they eat haggis everyday and drink much whisky

[TheDemonLord]

Clearly then you arent interested in all cultures being represented in your government. Fair Nough, but It would never happen .

You are 100% right I am not - a good politician (this is the theoretical definition of good, not the realistic definition) would be able to make policy that is fair and equitable to all cultures whilst also being good for the country.

To use an Analogy to highlight my point:

I don't need to be gay to support policy that removes some of the legal discrimination against the gay community.


I think you would, or soon would be.

Thank you for your cynicism - but if all the Maori (or chinese, or australian, or martian) politicians where amazing, whilst all the white politicians are like the ones we actually have - why would I shoot myself and the rest of NZ in the foot for the sake of having a white face in parliment?

I care about who is best for the job, not the colour of their skin, their preference in partner, their gender or whatever - I just care if they can do their job (which would be a step up from the current batch of Oxygen wasting overpaid MPs)

[BoristheBiter]

而且他们比油石娘聪明很多了。

有些是比你的脚笨等什么是该职位的点比其它获得辱骂？

[BoristheBiter]

Thank you for your cynicism - but if all the Maori (or chinese, or australian, or martian) politicians where amazing, whilst all the white politicians are like the ones we actually have - why would I shoot myself and the rest of NZ in the foot for the sake of having a white face in parliment?

I care about who is best for the job, not the colour of their skin, their preference in partner, their gender or whatever - I just care if they can do their job (which would be a step up from the current batch of Oxygen wasting overpaid MPs)

Yep you're right, as it was not my intention with an off the cuff remark to bring race into the discussion at all.

[oldrider]

Yep you're right, as it was not my intention with an off the cuff remark to bring race into the discussion at all.

Pissing around the edges pretending race (along with everything else) doesn't exist is like trying to say that the sun will not rise tomorrow FFS! :bs:

[BoristheBiter]

Pissing around the edges pretending race (along with everything else) doesn't exist is like trying to say that the sun will not rise tomorrow FFS! :bs:

who's pissing, I made a comment and........................Oh fuck it it just doesn't matter.

[oldrider]

who's pissing, I made a comment and........................Oh fuck it it just doesn't matter.

Wasn't about you it was about our aversion to mentioning race .................. but like you said, oh fuck it just doesn't matter, never mind! :confused:

[Banditbandit]

Maori aren't Polynesian, now?

I do believe you're changing your fiction to fit your bitch-of-the-day, dude.

Clearly I did not say that at all ... if you go back and read with comprehension then I say Polynesian (Māori and Pasifika) ...

[jasonu]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11279268

I wonder if he invited/picked up any fat chicks.

[BoristheBiter]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11279268

I wonder if he invited/picked up any fat chicks.

Depends if they wanted money upfront.

[TheDemonLord]

Well after his seperation I guess he is one of NZ's most elligable Batchelors....

[BoristheBiter]

Well after his seperation I guess he is one of NZ's most elligable Batchelors....

Bet he now moves to Hamilton where the women are cheaper.

[Akzle]

Bet he now moves to Hamilton where the women are cheaper.

as an interesting aside, hamilton is no longer the clapital of nz. I believe its gisbourne now.

[BoristheBiter]

as an interesting aside, hamilton is no longer the clapital of nz. I believe its gisbourne now.

Ah so the fat man could be doing a tour of NZ.

I'd watch out mate he could head norf, and he doesn't seem that choosy.

[Akzle]

Ah so the fat man could be doing a tour of NZ.

I'd watch out mate he could head norf, and he doesn't seem that choosy.

i'm not your mate.

[BoristheBiter]

i'm not your mate.

I was going to write fucktard but I'm trying this polite thing everyone keeps talking about.:bleh:

But really that's all you had to pick up from that post? Your local chip shop is in for same extra orders.

[Akzle]

But really that's all you had to pick up from that post? Your local chip shop is in for same extra orders.

well, you are fairly irrelevant...

[Madness]

Fairly.


:killingme