Prime Minister Dotcom? [Archive]

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Wingnut

12th January 2014, 06:40

Woodman

12th January 2014, 07:16

Wonder if he will invade Poland?

Akzle

12th January 2014, 07:27

i would actually, for the first time in my sweet life, vote.
Also. Thread been done. By me.

awayatc

12th January 2014, 07:33

He could form his own island..

unstuck

12th January 2014, 07:40

He could form his own island..

He does that every time he goes for a swim in the sea.:niceone:

mashman

12th January 2014, 07:59

Laava

12th January 2014, 08:08

:rofl: can't wait to see what he will propose to drive the change he wants... but if it involves keeping the financial system, then my vote will stay tucked up in my pocket.

So when is the KB Party going on the register? It could ride around in large intimidating gangs browbeating the public into voting for them. Oh I can barely contain my excitement.

HAHA! A KB party! That would be hilarious!
"Are you looking for a soup of indescision? Endless circular arguments based on anything but facts? Vote KB!"
Who would be our frontman, I am warming to the idea!

mashman

12th January 2014, 08:12

HAHA! A KB party! That would be hilarious!
"Are you looking for a soup of indescision? Endless circular arguments based on anything but facts? Vote KB!"
Who would be our frontman, I am warming to the idea!

Now you've gone and dun spoilded it making it sounds like a real political party.
How would the frontman be elected? Cage/Bar fighting? Smokey would probably get my nod, if only to see him shakin the hands of coloured folk. Actually, I reckon KB Party should have a frontwoman. So yeah, Smokey.

Akzle

12th January 2014, 08:35

Oh I can barely contain my excitement.

*excrement

Woodman

12th January 2014, 08:44

Smokey would probably get my nod, if only to see him shakin the hands of coloured folk. Actually, I reckon KB Party should have a frontBUM. So yeah, Smokey.

Fixed....................................

oldrider

12th January 2014, 08:49

Germans were threatening us at the time of my birth and despite having seen them clobbered in a world war ... here they are again, trying to take us over! :shit:

Nothing much has changed! :facepalm: (at least the Japs are friendly now)

Maybe we should declare open season on Germans again! :ar15:

jim.cox

12th January 2014, 08:52

Maybe we should declare open season on Germans again!

Given the way the Japanese and German economies have boomed since 1945, we would be better off declaring war on the USA

Of course, with our luck, we would win...

mashman

12th January 2014, 08:53

*excrement

Fixed....................................

I like the way I had it :bleh:

Maybe we should declare open season on Germans again! :ar15:

So you're the one who's been inciting all the German beatings recently... you should be ashamed of yourself, a bit.

pritch

12th January 2014, 09:17

"Are you looking for a soup of indescision? Endless circular arguments based on anything but facts? Vote KB!"

Nah, that's not new, the existing parties do that now.

oldrider

12th January 2014, 09:39

Nah, that's not new, the existing parties do that now.

True and if it's only going to be more of the same shit ... financial and media backing is never be a problem! :oi-grr:

SMOKEU

12th January 2014, 09:59

I'm keen to be the leader of the KB party. When do I start?

The Reibz

12th January 2014, 10:12

I'm keen to be the leader of the KB party. When do I start?

When you make a policy that legalises burnouts/wheelies and removes the speed limit for motorcycles. Speed limit = Unlimited for those on 2 wheels

SMOKEU

12th January 2014, 10:20

When you make a policy that legalises burnouts/wheelies and removes the speed limit for motorcycles. Speed limit = Unlimited for those on 2 wheels

I'd agree to both, but within reason. I wouldn't want people doing skids outside my crib when I'm trying to sleep, so maybe just out in the countryside with no houses around or industrial areas at night. And no speed limit for bikes sounds good. That will weed out the muppets pretty quickly.

unstuck

12th January 2014, 10:34

SMOKEU

12th January 2014, 10:50

With this new burnout policy, who will pay to fix the tarseal damage? If it comes out of the leaders pay packet, go hard. If your going to use my tax dollars, then you will get exactly the same amount of tax I am paying now.:shifty:

All the more reason to set up some proper skid pads with big hay bales or other such safety barriers and let people go hard.

And we'll have to legalize buds too.

unstuck

12th January 2014, 10:55

And we'll have to legalize buds too.

You'll do. As long as you promise to keep your pay check under 2 grand a week.:niceone:

SMOKEU

12th January 2014, 11:14

You'll do. As long as you promise to keep your pay check under 2 grand a week.:niceone:

It's a deal.

ducatilover

12th January 2014, 11:28

I will not vote for a fat cunt, on principle.

I vote Smokey, that mofo will sort teh coons out. And get my roof painted.

bogan

12th January 2014, 11:35

It's probably bad for foreign policy to get him to high up in the ranks, but I may vote for him. Depite his wanted in US status, he'd probly be one of the more upstanding people in that shithouse.

Big Dave

12th January 2014, 11:50

Don't mention the war.

pritch

12th January 2014, 12:08

It's probably bad for foreign policy to get him to high up in the ranks, but I may vote for him. Depite his wanted in US status, he'd probly be one of the more upstanding people in that shithouse.

He could be party leader but he isn't a New Zaealand citizen so he can't stand for election himself.

I have a lot of sympathy for the guy, under Obama and Holder "Justice Department" has almost become an oxymoron.

Smokeu, conventional wisdom says that parties have to appeal to some hypotheitical Wiatakere Man. You won't do that using backwoods hillbilly words like "crib".:devil2:

unstuck

12th January 2014, 12:13

You won't do that using backwoods hillbilly words like "crib".:devil2:

Surely he would be out of a bassinett by now and into a crib.:msn-wink:

Big Dave

12th January 2014, 13:00

Well it's better than ferkin' 'bach' - whats that, a humpy built by a bloke called Johan?

avgas

12th January 2014, 13:39

He sounds useless and would fuck up everything in government.
Got my vote. I just wan't to see everything burn now.

Quick morons. Quickly plan your vote to block mine.
Morons.

oldrider

12th January 2014, 14:48

He could be party leader but he isn't a New Zaealand citizen so he can't stand for election himself.

What about the Green party leader, he is a foreigner (Australian) and he has got himself a cushy wee number paid by the taxpayer! :mad:

awa355

12th January 2014, 17:34

Smokeu for PM, Then each June, he could take his political cronnies, ( KB members ) to the Isle of Man motorcycle conference, all paid for by cagers' rego fees. :laugh::laugh::laugh:

ellipsis

12th January 2014, 17:43

I'm keen for a KB party. When do I start?

...are us old fucks...say, over 30 years old allowed to come...<_<

Akzle

12th January 2014, 18:25

i'm voting awa for 2IC, with ideas like that...

Smokeu for PM, Then each June, he could take his political cronnies, ( KB members ) to the Isle of Man motorcycle conference, all paid for by cagers' rego fees. :laugh::laugh::laugh:

SMOKEU

12th January 2014, 18:33

Smokeu for PM, Then each June, he could take his political cronnies, ( KB members ) to the Isle of Man motorcycle conference, all paid for by cagers' rego fees. :laugh::laugh::laugh:

Done!

...are us old fucks...say, over 30 years old allowed to come...<_<

Sure, the more the merrier.

i'm voting awa for 2IC, with ideas like that...

Perfect.

Scuba_Steve

12th January 2014, 18:46

awa355

12th January 2014, 19:17

" SMIDSY " will be admitting a criminal offence, ACC will be dismantled. The police fleet will be updated, Highway patrols will all get brand new ' Warehouse' bicycles.

Certain roads will be closed to four wheel vehicles.

Now, what do we do with the current crop of politicians? They should have to work for their dole:sweatdrop:sweatdrop

ducatilover

12th January 2014, 19:18

i'm voting awa for 2IC, with ideas like that...

I'll go with that.

No fuckin' way Mashy can be finances though and I think you'd be horticulture? (Or horiculture?)

I'll sweep the floors and stuff.

awa355

12th January 2014, 19:47

DonKey and Prick Smith can go cutting scrub on the Auckland Islands. They can have Crusher Collins for entertainment.

Akzle

12th January 2014, 19:47

No fuckin' way Mashy can be finances though and I think you'd be horticulture? (Or horiculture?)

I'll sweep the floors and stuff.

it wont be a problem. There will be no finances to be had. Just whores and coke.

Me? I wont be doing fuckall. I dont give a shit about anyone else. Ill keep the hookahs stoked but thats about it.

And boris has been previously assigned to janitorial duties, so you can be barkeep or something...

mashman

12th January 2014, 19:59

No fuckin' way Mashy can be finances though

FarQ Mr... I've got a brand new financial system. It's completely recession proof.

There will be no finances to be had. Just whores and coke.

Don't you mean slutz? Whores cost money. These things matter to the public ya know. So get it right or people will think you haven't got a fuckin clue what yer talkin about.

ducatilover

12th January 2014, 20:51

it wont be a problem. There will be no finances to be had. Just whores and coke.

Me? I wont be doing fuckall. I dont give a shit about anyone else. Ill keep the hookahs stoked but thats about it.

And boris has been previously assigned to janitorial duties, so you can be barkeep or something...
Barkeep? Deal.

FarQ Mr... I've got a brand new financial system. It's completely recession proof.

Will it sell my car and buy me more bikes?

Akzle

12th January 2014, 20:59

FarQ Mr... I've got a brand new financial system. It's completely recession proof.

Don't you mean slutz? Whores cost money. These things matter to the public ya know. So get it right or people will think you haven't got a fuckin clue what yer talkin about.

does it involve money?
(hint:
fi·nance (f -n ns , f -, f n ns ) noun.
1. The science of the management of money
2. The management of money, banking, investments, and
credit.
3. finances Monetary resources; funds, especially those of a
government or corporate body.
4. The supplying of funds or capital.)

whores? No. Hookers.
Hookers for lunch.

SMOKEU

12th January 2014, 21:20

No fuckin' way Mashy can be finances though and I think you'd be horticulture? (Or horiculture?)

Whore-ticulture more like it.

EJK

12th January 2014, 21:29

Lower bike registration too please.

mashman

12th January 2014, 21:30

Will it sell my car and buy me more bikes?

Yes and maybe.

does it involve money?
(hint:
fi·nance (f -n ns , f -, f n ns ) noun.
1. The science of the management of money
2. The management of money, banking, investments, and
credit.
3. finances Monetary resources; funds, especially those of a
government or corporate body.
4. The supplying of funds or capital.)

whores? No. Hookers.
Hookers for lunch.

Yes it does involve money. Every single thing that earns money currently, will keep on earning money or will retain its cost. Those "values/costs" will be variable and "valued/costed" based on the need to produce a pre-determined GDP. Having said that, the internal economy will not use money as everything in NZ will be free. Simple really. A truly virtualised currency.

See that's getting confusing. Praps we should just go with nympho's.

avgas

13th January 2014, 06:06

No no no - see mashies new financial regime won't run on money. Y'see you can get whatever you want, and put it on this think called "Credit". When mashy doesn't like you the credit becomes debt and he comes for your good lookin daughters. :lol:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/0wCCBMlHnRM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

mashman

13th January 2014, 10:26

No no no - see mashies new financial regime won't run on money. Y'see you can get whatever you want, and put it on this think called "Credit". When mashy doesn't like you the credit becomes debt and he comes for your good lookin daughters. :lol:

Such statements of Libel will see you against the wall. There'll be no need for the people to concern themselves with credit or debt, they'll have everything they want... as long as it is available, more or less. I'll see you in Guantanamo once I've called my brown friend in the whitehouse... where everyone gets a bargain, more or less.

avgas

13th January 2014, 11:49

You know Mr Stinky too?
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_-lKiQNdfEZo/TMG4g-q8YxI/AAAAAAAAA5c/b10FXyUHq8U/s1600/gsstinky.jpg

mashman

13th January 2014, 19:33

You know Mr Stinky too?

I keep getting rid of the fucker and he keeps coming back.

awa355

15th January 2014, 14:47

Fat Kraut bastard:mad::mad::mad: Not a single mention of the KB Revolutionary party. :argh::argh:

Looks like we will have to go it alone.

mashman

15th January 2014, 17:57

Fat Kraut bastard:mad::mad::mad: Not a single mention of the KB Revolutionary party. :argh::argh:

The paper says the party should run on a policy of better internet access for economic gain. (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/20756063/dotcoms-party-strategy-leaked/)... KB is on the internetz innit? Having said that, if that's their sole policy :killingme please see the Kraut slur above... but put Useless in front of it.

ellipsis

15th January 2014, 18:56

..all but an interlude on the fluffy blue skies and bullshit that the major bullshitters will spread with our money, in the near distant future...lets argue religin'n'shit...

mashman

15th January 2014, 19:00

lets argue religin'n'shit...

Is KDC the Buddha reincarnate?

ellipsis

15th January 2014, 19:52

Is KFC the Buddha reincarnate?

...from what I see, yes...

mashman

15th January 2014, 19:55

...from what I see, yes...

Shouldn't he be advocating channeling instead of internet then. So confusing.

scott411

16th January 2014, 07:21

I always thought that no politician would ever be worse than Hone, Dotcom and Bradbury together have proved me wrong,

but ill give dotcom his dues, his PR campaign is very good,

oldrider

16th January 2014, 09:19

That fat Kraut bought his way into the country .... now he thinks he can buy his way into government! :rolleyes:

Unfortunately this country is dumb enough to allow it to happen! :facepalm: FFS!

Smifffy

16th January 2014, 09:32

Is KDC the Buddha reincarnate?

Kawerau District Council?

The Reibz

16th January 2014, 10:07

That fat Kraut bought his way into the country .... now he thinks he can buy his way into government! :rolleyes:

Unfortunately this country is dumb enough to allow it to happen! :facepalm: FFS!

This is NZ boss. You can buy your way into anything, particually if your Asian (Sorry EJ)

TheDemonLord

16th January 2014, 10:31

That fat Kraut bought his way into the country .... now he thinks he can buy his way into government! :rolleyes:

Unfortunately this country is dumb enough to allow it to happen! :facepalm: FFS!

You say that like this is somehow an exception when compared to other politicians....

mashman

16th January 2014, 10:39

Kawerau District Council?

If it isn't levitating, then no. Everything being up in the air doesn't count.

oldrider

16th January 2014, 11:07

You say that like this is somehow an exception when compared to other politicians....

If they are fellow New Zealanders that is their right within the laws of the land it is something I reluctantly have to put up with! :argh: Damn it!

Bald Eagle

16th January 2014, 11:11

That fat Kraut bought his way into the country .... now he thinks he can buy his way into government! :rolleyes:

Unfortunately this country is dumb enough to allow it to happen! :facepalm: FFS!

Why not jonkey bought his way into the beehive.

Sent from my LG-P768 using Tapatalk

oldrider

16th January 2014, 17:33

Ah ha, the fat Kraut got caught in his own gin trap! .... Choice! :shifty:

oldrider

16th January 2014, 21:23

ducatilover

16th January 2014, 22:46

It'd be cool if he wasn't fucking fat.

avgas

17th January 2014, 02:54

Who and what is Kim.Com? ... I asked myself this question and I really don't know the answer! :no:

I guess then I am just biased against a fat rich German coming here trying to use our country as he likes ... so I have started to try to understand! :shifty:

Looked at this link for an opener: http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/hollywoods-villain-kim-dotcom/

So far it looks as if he is considered to be no different to a money launderer or a fence for criminally stolen property! (Receiving?)

He admits to having a past criminal record obviously knows his computer stuff and is happy to push the legal envelope wherever he can!

I would prefer that he did this from his own or some other country rather than sheltering in ours and taking advantage of NZ naivety! :confused:
Google filesharing.

Why didn't they hit an American? There are 1000's of file sharing sites hosted by Americans - all whom operation the same as MegaUpload did. Many whom were as big as he is. I suspect it was because he wasn't paying US Tax.

Also they want to extradite him with no evidence, which thankfully is not how NZ court of law works.

I don't like the guy, but I smell a pretty big rat out of the whole thing and completely dislike how we have become lap dogs in NZ without doing research.
NZ naivety indeed.

Akzle

17th January 2014, 07:18

Scuba_Steve

17th January 2014, 07:18

Why didn't they hit an American? There are 1000's of file sharing sites hosted by Americans - all whom operation the same as MegaUpload did. Many whom were as big as he is. I suspect it was because he wasn't paying US Tax.

Rumour has it, it was because of his music service as he was about to release it when the illegal raids happened.
The service would have seen money go directly to artists rather than big American corporates; I don't think they liked that idea.

mashman

17th January 2014, 09:05

Google filesharing.

Why didn't they hit an American? There are 1000's of file sharing sites hosted by Americans - all whom operation the same as MegaUpload did. Many whom were as big as he is. I suspect it was because he wasn't paying US Tax.

Also they want to extradite him with no evidence, which thankfully is not how NZ court of law works.

I don't like the guy, but I smell a pretty big rat out of the whole thing and completely dislike how we have become lap dogs in NZ without doing research.
NZ naivety indeed.

Oooooo, tin foil hat time. Because this entire debacle has been engineered from start to finish. KDC is a bad guy coz he's done bad things, but the peeps think he's a hero that's being chased by the US. The US and NZ have told KDC that they're gonna bang him up if he doesn't toe the line and do as he's told. Faster broadband = faster NSA downloading. Let's go back to modems :)

scott411

17th January 2014, 09:25

Google filesharing.

Why didn't they hit an American? There are 1000's of file sharing sites hosted by Americans - all whom operation the same as MegaUpload did. Many whom were as big as he is. I suspect it was because he wasn't paying US Tax.

Also they want to extradite him with no evidence, which thankfully is not how NZ court of law works.

I don't like the guy, but I smell a pretty big rat out of the whole thing and completely dislike how we have become lap dogs in NZ without doing research.
NZ naivety indeed.

i have no idea if Kim Dotcom will be found guilty or not, but he will fight every step of the way which i can understand, i have read about the first 10 pages of the charges they put out, if they can prove what they say he will go away, but when Dotcom has explained his position then it seems like he is being victimised

you have to admire his PR team, he makes himself seem like some big freedom fighter, yet he is just a capitalist that plays the system, the left seem to hate John Key for the way he made his money, yet are getting behind Dotcom who has been convicted of insider trading and fraud, and has pending charges on others,

Laava

17th January 2014, 09:50

It'd be cool if he wasn't fucking fat.

Yep. They will probably get Tom Cruise to play him in the inevitable movie epic.

Laava

17th January 2014, 09:52

Oooooo, Let's go back to modems :)

Dial up?
Wheeegedangdangiggleiggllebongdangbeedlebeedleiddl eiddlewhoooooosh!

Akzle

17th January 2014, 11:16

Oooooo, tin foil hat time. Because this entire debacle has been engineered from start to finish.
Teh shonkey govt has already put in ufb infrastructure.
Thankfully most people who work in telco positions that matter arent cunts. But they are watching you. And laughing.

if they can prove what they say he will go away, but when Dotcom has explained his position then it seems like he is being victimised

yet are getting behind Dotcom who has been convicted of insider trading and fraud, and has pending charges on others,

they cant prove it, because, THEY MADE IT UP, AND HAVE NO JURISDICTION.
If they could prove, even a little bit, he would already be on trial in 'murica. Hoo-rah!

His insider conviction was minor in the jew scheme of things.

Someone asked: who would you rather leave your kids with?
(...donkey or dotcom)

The Reibz

17th January 2014, 11:28

BoristheBiter

17th January 2014, 11:36

Laava

17th January 2014, 11:38

Originally Posted by The Reibz
Crack up how everyone is judging him because hes fat when most of them have never seen the inside of a gym, done a deadlift, squat, pushup, ect... Have a good hard look at yourself people, the guy is out there trying to make a difference and make things BETTER for NZ'ers. Who isn't all for that?

You callin me fat!
I,ve a good mind to waddle over there and have a word. When i finish these pies.

TheDemonLord

17th January 2014, 11:39

Crack up how everyone is judging him because hes fat when most of them have never seen the inside of a gym, done a deadlift, squat, pushup, ect... Have a good hard look at yourself people, the guy is out there trying to make a difference and make things BETTER for NZ'ers. Who isn't all for that?

Cause he isn't a NZer, and only people born in NZ to at least a 3rd generation NZ European family have the right to try and make things better for NZers

TBH I am all for Mr. Dotcom - its not like he could do worse than our current politicians.

As for whether he is a victim or not - just think on this; America has a lovely habit of picking and choosing who/what it goes after and persecutes/villifies based entirely on its own agenda (whether that Agenda is Political, corporate or a corrupt amalgamation of both) mix in some very dubious at best actions by the NZ govt on behalf of America and the perception (justified or not) that he was singled out 'to be made an example of', Add a pinch or two of hypocrisy when compared to how America has dealt in the past with some of its own corporates that have engaged in far worse and far more illegal activities than MegaUpload was accused of then finally Garnish with the fact that as much as America likes to think, it does not own the Internet and one of the Key tenants open which the Internet was created upon was Net Neutrality - this has allowed the Internet to flourish with new content and functionality that otherwise could not have occured if there was definitive ownership and restrictive copyright laws (as America would like)

I am not saying MegaUpload was 100% right in what it was doing, but I am saying there is a case to be made as to the motivations of the MegaUpload fiasco

avgas

17th January 2014, 13:40

TheDemonLord

17th January 2014, 13:51

In other news, the managing director of Toyo Tyres was arrested for;
- 4000 counts of Public Disturbance
- 5000 counts of Damage to property
and 2000 counts of endangerment.

He was reportedly shouting from the prison cells.

"I just sell car tires, its up to the driver how to use them!"

Meanwhile the Directors of Smith and Wesson, Colt and Glock were heard saying:

"It really should be up to the company to Ensure that their products are only used in a legal and Law Abiding way..."

oldrider

17th January 2014, 15:43

Meanwhile the Directors of Smith and Wesson, Colt and Glock were heard saying:

"It really should be up to the company to Ensure that their products are only used in a legal and Law Abiding way..."

Yep this is the difficult bit in Dot.com's case ... he simply provided a service for people to use ... the user (and the law) decides whether the use is legal or illegal.

Gives rise to the adage that "The law is an ass"! .... Doesn't help my argument that Dot.Com is a fat unwanted German in the wrong country though, does it? :facepalm:

ellipsis

17th January 2014, 16:26

...his money is not big by rich list status but he has enough to make big waves in this third world country we live...the whole lot of what we have and whats gone before them, have either paid only lip service to their constituents to collect their wages or hung in and made a career of it, talking absolute shit and getting their retirement benefits and fringe benefits, irrespective...who is to say this fat cunt cant do better...I stopped having issues with krauts years ago...just after I realised half of them live here...

pete376403

17th January 2014, 17:14

KDC versus Key - german versus jew. This has been done before.

oldrider

17th January 2014, 18:08

Akzle

17th January 2014, 18:24

Most of them (krauts) are probably employed by DOC or some other cushy irrelevant government department! :rolleyes:

the beehive...

The Reibz

17th January 2014, 18:24

No he is only out for himself, he's a "winner" plain and simple.

If he a) wasn't rich or b) wanted by the US no one would give a fuck about him or his thoughts.

Bro do you even lift?
Hes only out for himself? Sounds like just about every cunt on the entire planet...

BoristheBiter

17th January 2014, 19:56

Bro do you even lift?
Hes only out for himself? Sounds like just about every cunt on the entire planet...

Never said they aren't but don't try and make him out to be the saint that will solve all our issues.

Funny how most like to have a go at john key for being a "rich prick" but you will suck up to the fat german.

What's the lift bit?

The Reibz

17th January 2014, 19:59

fat german
There we go again!

ellipsis

17th January 2014, 20:00

...is John Key rich or extremely comfortable?...

oldrider

17th January 2014, 21:21

...is John Key rich or extremely comfortable?...

Hint: Plays casual golf with the president of the USA in his spare time! :whistle: (How much more comfortable can it get?)

mashman

17th January 2014, 21:29

...is John Key rich or extremely comfortable?...

Rich. I doubt he'd be that comfortable to use as a chair or bed depending on how much you like the guy.

scott411

17th January 2014, 21:35

In other news, the managing director of Toyo Tyres was arrested for;
- 4000 counts of Public Disturbance
- 5000 counts of Damage to property
and 2000 counts of endangerment.

He was reportedly shouting from the prison cells.

"I just sell car tires, its up to the driver how to use them!"

if Mr Toyo had paid bonuses and encouraged the action then he might have something to answer for,

if you rented out a shop to someone you knew was renting or selling stolen stuff then you would be charged as well, and if you gave them a discount, or paid them a bonus because it brought more traffic to your building, you would be sure to stand trial,

ellipsis

17th January 2014, 21:39

mashman

17th January 2014, 21:46

...I dont sit down a lot, hover, more like...there are a few people who are very rich and then there are those who have a hand in billions and more...whose cock you want to suck is probably defined by who wants to suck yours...(metaphorically speaking)...

Metaphorically speaking, I only ever want to suck my own cock/scratch my own back. One much harder than the other.

BoristheBiter

18th January 2014, 06:27

There we go again!

You have never called anyone else names then?

unstuck

18th January 2014, 06:31

TheDemonLord

18th January 2014, 08:00

if Mr Toyo had paid bonuses and encouraged the action then he might have something to answer for,

if you rented out a shop to someone you knew was renting or selling stolen stuff then you would be charged as well, and if you gave them a discount, or paid them a bonus because it brought more traffic to your building, you would be sure to stand trial,

Consider this (seeing as we are going down this slippery slope, may as well do it properly)

The Automotive Industry
The Firearms Industry
The Alcohol Industry
The Tobacco Industry
The Fast Food Industry

In fact - just about any industry where the use/abuse of their products regularly results in Fatalities/serious Injury

Now ask yourselves - can you name a single member of the above mentioned industries that hasn't done the following:

Used product placement in mainstream media Even when the media is depicting their products being used in an Illegal fashion in order to make their products seem cool/badass/desirable and thus by extension increase revenue and sales.

Even if Mr Dot Com did do the things he is accused of - every other industry has done the same thing (whether directly or indirectly) - and if Mr Dot Com is being made to answer - then why not all the other heads of the above industries?

This comes back to my point earlier about the US playing favorites with whoever is bribing - sorry I mean 'Lobbying' them with the most money

phill-k

18th January 2014, 08:20

<G>

18th January 2014, 09:38

You callin me fat!
I,ve a good mind to waddle over there and have a word. When i finish these pies.

Make sure to blow on the pies first :msn-wink:

BoristheBiter

18th January 2014, 11:12

Consider this (seeing as we are going down this slippery slope, may as well do it properly)

The Automotive Industry
The Firearms Industry
The Alcohol Industry
The Tobacco Industry
The Fast Food Industry

In fact - just about any industry where the use/abuse of their products regularly results in Fatalities/serious Injury

Now ask yourselves - can you name a single member of the above mentioned industries that hasn't done the following:

Used product placement in mainstream media Even when the media is depicting their products being used in an Illegal fashion in order to make their products seem cool/badass/desirable and thus by extension increase revenue and sales.

Even if Mr Dot Com did do the things he is accused of - every other industry has done the same thing (whether directly or indirectly) - and if Mr Dot Com is being made to answer - then why not all the other heads of the above industries?

This comes back to my point earlier about the US playing favorites with whoever is bribing - sorry I mean 'Lobbying' them with the most money

He is charged with criminal copyright infringements, racketeering and money laundering.
so even if you remove the copyright there are still two other charges.

avgas

18th January 2014, 15:19

if Mr Toyo had paid bonuses and encouraged the action then he might have something to answer for,
if you rented out a shop to someone you knew was renting or selling stolen stuff then you would be charged as well, and if you gave them a discount, or paid them a bonus because it brought more traffic to your building, you would be sure to stand trial,
Evidence?
Megaupload rewarded you for uploading and they rewarded you not with some cross transferable currency - but membership. So there wasn't rich pirates out there recording in cinemas...........there was movie buff's watching movies. Also you could upload 4 hours of the neighbors dog - megaupload didn't care........o why did people upload movies?

I know lots of legitimate users of MegaUpload.....you have to remember this was a time before Dropbox, google drive, skydrive.......
I also know the architecture that allowed people to remove content they believed to be dodgy (hint: it worked very well)

Fact was the world had moved - the movie and music industry hadn't. They had companies like Amazon begging to make it more effective (such as the way it is now where you can rent an online movie) but 5 years ago you couldn't.

Do you believe we have the rights for every image on KB? How would you feel if KB was taken down due to the fact we did not have the rights for all the images here?

KDC was a big, fat, stupid target and NZ are lapdogs for whatever the US says (since the 1980's). This take down was a match made in heaven - with the exception of the NZ court system (which requires evidence). Megaupload can't defend itself because it has no access to its evidence (its servers).........does that sound legit to you?

avgas

18th January 2014, 15:26

He is charged with criminal copyright infringements, racketeering and money laundering.
so even if you remove the copyright there are still two other charges.
Evidence? It's pretty simple really - if people are charged with something, you provide evidence that shows they did it.
Who did KDC loanshark, extort, bribe or obstruct?
Where is this money he has hidden if they have all his money?

________________ until proven guilty.

Evidence = Proof

They need to show proof in a court of law (without extradition) before we progress further don't you think? Otherwise why have a legal system?
You could be charged with rape, thrown in prison without ever finding out if you have left the house.

(I don't think he is 100% clean, but I can't believe they provided 0% evidence in court and expected everything to go smoothly - Does the US think that NZ is full of morons or something?)

avgas

18th January 2014, 15:28

Never mind the other culpable industries listed what about other cloud storage facilitators, Mega Upload was just a well marketed supplier of that service and a large number of his clients were legitimate businesses using the facility.
Easy enough to do the same things some of his clients were doing on many of the other American based cloud suppliers.
Could you see them taking down Amazon, Apple, Oracle, Google or Microsoft......the darlings of the tech space?
No way easier to hit a fat German, hiding in the arse end of the world.

Funny thing is - why has no one sued PRISM? Those fuckers have copy of everything :)

avgas

18th January 2014, 15:30

Seemed appropriate.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/CJinWua98NA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

oldrider

18th January 2014, 20:10

That makes me think I have died and gone to haven! ... :facepalm:

BoristheBiter

18th January 2014, 21:47

Evidence? It's pretty simple really - if people are charged with something, you provide evidence that shows they did it.
Who did KDC loanshark, extort, bribe or obstruct?
Where is this money he has hidden if they have all his money?

________________ until proven guilty.

Evidence = Proof

They need to show proof in a court of law (without extradition) before we progress further don't you think? Otherwise why have a legal system?
You could be charged with rape, thrown in prison without ever finding out if you have left the house.

(I don't think he is 100% clean, but I can't believe they provided 0% evidence in court and expected everything to go smoothly - Does the US think that NZ is full of morons or something?)

Agree with you 100%....... well maybe 90% this is KB.

How do you know there isn't any?
Let him go to court and sort it out but his team are trying to get it thrown out with PR spin and stalling tactics.

Akzle

19th January 2014, 06:09

Let him go to court and sort it out but his team are trying to get it thrown out with PR spin and stalling tactics.

nooooooo. his team are trying to get them to do this little prerequisite known as "full disclosure". the yanks are the ones thumbing their asses trying to avoid it.

BoristheBiter

19th January 2014, 08:09

nooooooo. his team are trying to get them to do this little prerequisite known as "full disclosure". the yanks are the ones thumbing their asses trying to avoid it.

And you know this how? something his pr teams said to the media maybe?

Akzle

19th January 2014, 08:19

And you know this how? something his pr teams said to the media maybe?

absolutely. I totally believe everything the jewmedia says.

BoristheBiter

19th January 2014, 08:22

absolutely. I totally believe everything the jewmedia says.

So you don't know either then.

scott411

19th January 2014, 08:52

nooooooo. his team are trying to get them to do this little prerequisite known as "full disclosure". the yanks are the ones thumbing their asses trying to avoid it.

full disclosure is not normally required in extradition cases, just proving there is a charge to answer, as for the full trail in the states, Dotcom knows its cheaper and easier to fight in NZ than in the USA, so he will continue to try and delay as long as possible here,

I don't know if he is guilty or not, but he does not seem that keen to return to the USA to prove himself innocent,

Scuba_Steve

19th January 2014, 09:05

I don't know if he is guilty or not, but he does not seem that keen to return to the USA to prove himself innocent,

Proving himself innocent in America don't mean shit, he's intelligent enough to know if he goes to America he's fucked regardless of innocence.
Our legal system is far too corrupt as it is but standing next to America's legal system it looks almost honest.

The only ones shown to have broken any laws in this case so far is the NZ police/Govt, but remind me how many of them have been charged for their criminal actions?

avgas

19th January 2014, 09:10

Agree with you 100%....... well maybe 90% this is KB.
How do you know there isn't any?
Let him go to court and sort it out but his team are trying to get it thrown out with PR spin and stalling tactics.
FBI turned up to court with none and then expected extradition.
They have since not returned or pursued him to court, but have countless opportunities to do so. They have ALL the evidence, why can't they provide ANYTHING in court?

Who is running stalling tactics again?

If they turn up to court, with evidence - by all means haul him away. Until then - he is, by law, innocent.

We have plenty of other cases to waste the courts time on, we don't need the FBI's fucking around cases.

oldrider

19th January 2014, 09:19

FBI turned up to court with none and then expected extradition.
They have since not returned or pursued him to court, but have countless opportunities to do so. They have ALL the evidence, why can't they provide ANYTHING in court?

Who is running stalling tactics again?

If they turn up to court, with evidence - by all means haul him away. Until then - he is, by law, innocent.

We have plenty of other cases to waste the courts time on, we don't need the FBI's fucking around cases.

Have to agree in principal but not too sure about the "innocent" word being appropriate ... where there's smoke ($$$$$) etc! :confused:

As you say if they (FBI) had a case he (KDC) would be gone by lunch time! :shifty:

scott411

19th January 2014, 09:22

Proving himself innocent in America don't mean shit, he's intelligent enough to know if he goes to America he's fucked regardless of innocence.
Our legal system is far too corrupt as it is but standing next to America's legal system it looks almost honest.

The only ones shown to have broken any laws in this case so far is the NZ police/Govt, but remind me how many of them have been charged for their criminal actions?

if OJ can get off that murder charge, then dotcom's got a fighting chance,

both sides have delayed and appealed hearings which have dragged it on to this point, I can't find anything to see if the supreme court has made the final ruling on the disclosure, its already been though 3 courts, so I presume its still waiting on a decision,

Akzle

19th January 2014, 11:30

if OJ can get off that murder charge, then dotcom's got a fighting chance,

both sides have delayed and appealed hearings which have dragged it on to this point, I can't find anything to see if the supreme court has made the final ruling on the disclosure, its already been though 3 courts, so I presume its still waiting on a decision,

no, its waiting on the right payment to the right patsy jew who is willing to sign off on some corrupt shit that will probably be over ruled on a review 10 years after dotcom is dragged out of the country.jew will face charges of some bullshit and be bailed onto his superyacht in the tropics.

Scuba_Steve

19th January 2014, 12:44

Have to agree in principal but not too sure about the "innocent" word being appropriate

Innocent can be relative & next to his opposition he could be considered "innocent"

if OJ can get off that murder charge, then dotcom's got a fighting chance,

Only OJ wasn't up against Hollywood & there wasn't the cash moneys to be made from him

unstuck

19th January 2014, 13:10

I,d vote for the fat bastard, as long as he promised to stop making music.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/MokNvbiRqCM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

oldrider

19th January 2014, 17:55

The danger is that NZ's high level of dumb cunts could put KDC into the treasury benches! :Pokey:

Proof of the pudding is with how many times Labour have been there! :killingme

pete376403

20th January 2014, 10:21

Have to agree in principal but not too sure about the "innocent" word being appropriate ... where there's smoke ($$$$$) etc! :confused:

As you say if they (FBI) had a case he (KDC) would be gone by lunch time! :shifty:

Are you saying money = guilt? John Key started in a state house and now is reputedly worth $50 mill. Made mainly by gambling with other peoples money. That guilty enough for you?

Also, something I've been curious about - does your keyboard not have a period character (hint - its there just below the > ) as you seem unable to end a sentence with anything other than an exclamation mark. Those things are usually reserved for important or surprising statements.

BoristheBiter

20th January 2014, 11:02

Are you saying money = guilt? John Key started in a state house and now is reputedly worth $50 mill. Made mainly by gambling with other peoples money. That guilty enough for you?

.

it is called being paid to do a job. He does the job well, he gets paid well!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!

Scuba_Steve

20th January 2014, 11:15

it is called being paid to do a job. He does the job well, he gets paid well!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!

wouldn't it be nice if that's how it worked IRL

Oscar

20th January 2014, 11:49

Have to agree in principal but not too sure about the "innocent" word being appropriate ... where there's smoke ($$$$$) etc! :confused:

As you say if they (FBI) had a case he (KDC) would be gone by lunch time! :shifty:

The fat fuck already has several convictions in Germany. 11 counts of computer fraud, 10 counts of data espionage, embezzlement and insider trading amongst others.

TheDemonLord

20th January 2014, 12:02

The fat fuck already has several convictions in Germany. 11 counts of computer fraud, 10 counts of data espionage, embezzlement and insider trading amognst others.

So what you are really saying here is:

His Political credentials are in Top order?

Oscar

20th January 2014, 12:08

So what you are really saying here is:

His Political credentials are in Top order?

I don't give a shit about his political credentials - I wanna know how he got residency.
We have enough home grown crims without importing Kraut ones.

TheDemonLord

20th January 2014, 12:16

I don't give a shit about his political credentials - I wanna know how he got residency.
We have enough home grown crims without importing Kraut ones.

Probably a combination of convictions were for minor offences, happened in the passed, is a business person and paid a bribe to the relevant people

oldrider

20th January 2014, 13:48

Probably a combination of convictions were for minor offences, happened in the passed, is a business person and paid a bribe to the relevant people

Whatever it was Labour and Cunliff will say they would have gone further! :Oops: He probably got here on their watch anyway! :whistle:

BoristheBiter

20th January 2014, 15:39

wouldn't it be nice if that's how it worked IRL

It does but you spend more time paranoid looking for conspiracy's than actually in it.

mashman

20th January 2014, 17:07

I don't give a shit about his political credentials - I wanna know how he got residency.

He probably bought it.

ellipsis

20th January 2014, 17:13

He probably bought it.

...like anybody else that has enough in their bank account...

Scuba_Steve

20th January 2014, 17:41

I don't give a shit about his political credentials - I wanna know how he got residency.

He probably bought it.

...like anybody else that has enough in their bank account...

What they said ^
In-fact if I remember right the "purchase" for him to get approved was a $1mil fireworks display

It does but you spend more time paranoid looking for conspiracy's than actually in it.

Might want to remove those blinders sometime ay.

mashman

20th January 2014, 17:51

...like anybody else that has enough in their bank account...

Fuckin rich foreigners eh. Some of us had to get in on merit... them richies make me sick.

phill-k

20th January 2014, 18:31

He actually was required to invest in NZ, purchased $10mil in govt bonds, that was sufficient to get him his pass. Now all he does is provide decent paying employment to 30 odd people, and keep some of our less desirable politicians honest, actually out of a job, as Key is going to find out this year.

Akzle

20th January 2014, 18:40

Fuckin rich foreigners eh. Some of us had to get in on merit... them richies make me sick.

wow. they were laxx when you got through eh..

ellipsis

20th January 2014, 18:41

...if I hadn't been fortunate enough to be born here, I'd probably have to pretend I was a phillippino and promise to work for a buck fifty an hour and promise not to moan, to get a look in...

oldrider

20th January 2014, 18:52

actually out of a job, as Key is going to find out this year.

Are you not prepared for disappointment then? ... Still time to get some practice in! :blip:

Laava

20th January 2014, 18:58

I agree with Oldrider, for Key to be not voted in would suggest there is someone who can do a better job of running the country.
Devil you know and all that.

Akzle

20th January 2014, 19:22

oh dear.

another KB party thread.

scumdog

20th January 2014, 19:25

I used to do the semi sarcastic "USA USA USA" chant. I fear the NZ circus is on the move..... The guy likes publicity anyway

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9600518/Dotcom-sets-sights-on-politics

Fuck the fat foreign fucking fucker, he can fuck right off back to fucking Germany...:yes:

scumdog

20th January 2014, 19:27

He could form his own island..

He'd better not go near Farewell Spit - the Greenpeace types will put him out to sea...:laugh:

scumdog

20th January 2014, 19:28

Scuba_Steve

20th January 2014, 19:33

I agree with Oldrider, for Key to be not voted in would suggest there is someone who can do a better job of running the country.
Devil you know and all that.

No; there are plenty that could do a better job. All it means is idiots liked his smile better than the Labour leaders, nothing more.

mashman

20th January 2014, 20:58

wow. they were laxx when you got through eh..

heh... given what's already here, they must have thought that I'd up the class of the joint.

oldrider

20th January 2014, 21:04

No; there are plenty that could do a better job. All it means is idiots liked his smile better than the Labour leaders, nothing more.

Wasn't even that ... our elections are like a lucky dip or lotto!

We can't even identify the government at the conclusion of the elections!

The election result simply gives the politicians permission to sort out a government "among themselves" FFS ... that's incredible IMHO. :rolleyes:

ellipsis

20th January 2014, 21:34

... that's incredible IMHO. :rolleyes:

..thats the sum of it...not incredible...the stark truth...

Laava

20th January 2014, 21:46

No; there are plenty that could do a better job. All it means is idiots liked his smile better than the Labour leaders, nothing more.

A. Really? Name one.
B. you really think he got voted in for his smile?

avgas

21st January 2014, 00:27

Have to agree in principal but not too sure about the "innocent" word being appropriate ... where there's smoke ($$$$$) etc! :confused:

As you say if they (FBI) had a case he (KDC) would be gone by lunch time! :shifty:
To balance this out. When was Mr Key arrested for insider trading?
Did he have KiwiRail stock? Was he involved in KiwiRail development? Did he sell his KiwiRail stock for a profit?

I won't even get into the debarcle that is polly's and government contracts. That shit gets me really angry.

While the Kraut is dodgy as fuck, I just think the rules were stronger there. Over here we wait until there is a Ponzi Scheme.........then charge when and ONLY charge when the "Old man accounting" excuse doesn't fly anymore (SCF, Bradley, Ross) . If your a polly - chances are you hire some pretty good accountants, whom know their tax havens well.
Perhaps KDC could learn that lesson when he joins the old boys club?

As you said - where there is smoke. KDC will just be another stoner in a beehive. That factory knows its carbon footprint. How can you build a Bridge(corp) and get over what goes on in NZ so easily saying that the house is clean and KDC is dirty?

Akzle

21st January 2014, 07:27

To balance this out. When was Mr Key arrested for insider trading?
Did he have KiwiRail stock? Was he involved in KiwiRail development? Did he sell his KiwiRail stock for a profit?

No no no. Key is just a beneficiary, he has no oversight of his invested monies.
Similarly, his ridiculous pay packet is decided by an independent authority, he has no control over that...

Banditbandit

21st January 2014, 07:50

I agree with Oldrider, for Key to be not voted in would suggest there is someone who can do a better job of running the country.
Devil you know and all that.

Wrong - many people don't vote because they think someone else can do the job better ..

But yes, I do not believe that the election will change the Government. Teflon John would have to be caught screwing Len Brown to lose ...

Laava

21st January 2014, 09:43

Wrong - many people don't vote because they think someone else can do the job better .. ...

So you would have to say they got what they asked for.
If you genuinely thought someone else could do a better job then you would vote for the someone else right? Or were you only talking about retarded people?

Don,t get me wrong, I am not saying Key is the best leader we could have.
But the alternatives are not better IMO.

mashman

21st January 2014, 10:12

If you genuinely thought someone else could do a better job then you would vote for the someone else right?

Or not vote at all. Do you feel that you absolutely have to use your vote at every election irrespective of whether you believe in the party policy or not? Just curious like.

Banditbandit

21st January 2014, 10:42

So you would have to say they got what they asked for.
If you genuinely thought someone else could do a better job then you would vote for the someone else right? Or were you only talking about retarded people?

Don,t get me wrong, I am not saying Key is the best leader we could have.
But the alternatives are not better IMO.

No, I'm suggesting that voting for many many people is an emotional thing, not a rational thing - some people vote for the people who they think will do the best job, some people vote because of some sort of attachment to a political philosophy - a dogma - and others vote for the people the "like" ... were "like" is a purely subjective often emotive reaction ...

I do not believe that John Key is the best leader we could have .. I might agree that he is the best of a bad bunch who have put their name forward (but "might" is very unlikely to turn into "is" ...) - I refuse to vote for such a wide boy trader - everything is for sale for a price ... and consequently we have no integrity in our Government ... I refuse to agree that a person whose total being is for sale is the best leader we could have ...

Scuba_Steve

21st January 2014, 11:37

A. Really? Name one.
B. you really think he got voted in for his smile?

A. Look at the next party list, if they're not in a major party they could probably do a better job... then there's the still to be formed KB party & me
B. na he got voted cause people hated him less than labours leader simple as that

Laava

21st January 2014, 12:38

Or not vote at all. Do you feel that you absolutely have to use your vote at every election irrespective of whether you believe in the party policy or not? Just curious like.

Oh yeah, that is fair enough but I believe if you don,t vote in this democracy we live in then you have no right to complain either.

Laava

21st January 2014, 12:41

A. Look at the next party list, if they're not in a major party they could probably do a better job... then there's the still to be formed KB party & me
B. na he got voted cause people hated him less than labours leader simple as that

I might vote for the KB party and you will make a good politician as you avoided answering my first question entirely!

Akzle

21st January 2014, 15:28

Oh yeah, that is fair enough but I believe if you don,t vote in this democracy we live in then you have no right to complain either.

exactly the opposite.
voting implies some kind of consent. it implies that you want other people to make your decisions for you. i dont.
if you participate in the system, you cant bitch about it, because you supported it (whether or not 'your team' won) you must accept that the system is right and fair and basically suck a big jew cock.

and that leaves me with full complaining rights. because your system is fucked and i want nothing to do with it.

avgas

21st January 2014, 16:02

Oh yeah, that is fair enough but I believe if you don,t vote in this democracy we live in then you have no right to complain either.
Using that note then if you voted for a political party and they wronged you......you should just shut up and smile, because you voted for them.

Or it's not a black and white as that is it?
At what point did you vote for someone, and at what point did they lie to you? It is your own personal preference on where you draw that line. Some people draw that line if they are unhappy with the selection/process to begin with.

Think of other voting mechanisms..........they usually have a "for" and a "against". Except when it comes to politics.........have you ever wondered why?

BoristheBiter

21st January 2014, 16:29

BoristheBiter

21st January 2014, 16:30

exactly the opposite.
voting implies some kind of consent. it implies that you want other people to make your decisions for you. i dont.
if you participate in the system, you cant bitch about it, because you supported it (whether or not 'your team' won) you must accept that the system is right and fair and basically suck a big jew cock.

and that leaves me with full complaining rights. because your system is fucked and i want nothing to do with it.

And you would know all there is to know about sucking cock.

Akzle

21st January 2014, 16:46

Yep pretty much, and next time you can vote them out.

Funny how that works. :blink:
and nothing is accomplished. sounds like a superling waste of time.
"that works"

And you would know all there is to know about sucking cock.
no. i don't know why you'd even say that as a statement.
are you just not having a very good troll day?

Laava

21st January 2014, 18:22

Using that note then if you voted for a political party and they wronged you......you should just shut up and smile, because you voted for them.

Or it's not a black and white as that is it?
At what point did you vote for someone, and at what point did they lie to you? It is your own personal preference on where you draw that line. Some people draw that line if they are unhappy with the selection/process to begin with.

Think of other voting mechanisms..........they usually have a "for" and a "against". Except when it comes to politics.........have you ever wondered why?

So you are starting to get it. If they wronged you, which they will of course, you exercise your right to vote for someone else. If there is someone else that suits you better.
Of course axle is onto it, if you don,t vote you can just...er...um.... What was his point again?

Thinking of other voting mechanisms. For and against is for propositions only not for voting in a person or party. Come on for fucks sake, this is self evident.

Laava

21st January 2014, 18:23

exactly the opposite.
voting implies some kind of consent. it implies that you want other people to make your decisions for you. i dont.
if you participate in the system, you cant bitch about it, because you supported it (whether or not 'your team' won) you must accept that the system is right and fair and basically suck a big jew cock.

and that leaves me with full complaining rights. because your system is fucked and i want nothing to do with it.

Exactly the opposite. Not voting means you give your consent to anybody.

mashman

21st January 2014, 18:46

Oh yeah, that is fair enough but I believe if you don,t vote in this democracy we live in then you have no right to complain either.

The ONLY thing I'm doing differently is not ticking a box. It is a conscious decision not to vote given the options that the party's on the ballot paper offer. In fact it's the only decision I can come to. Why should I not have the right to complain? You're ticking a box, nothing else.

Akzle

21st January 2014, 18:48

Exactly the opposite. Not voting means you give your consent to anybody.

how the hell do you reckon that?

Im saying, here and now, and all the time, i dont consent.

oldrider

21st January 2014, 19:10

I do not believe that John Key is the best leader we could have .. I might agree that he is the best of a bad bunch who have put their name forward (but "might" is very unlikely to turn into "is" ...) - I refuse to vote for such a wide boy trader - everything is for sale for a price ... and consequently we have no integrity in our Government ... I refuse to agree that a person whose total being is for sale is the best leader we could have ...

You didn't vote John Key in as prime minister! (You may have voted for him in his constituency I.E. his seat!)

In NZ we the taxpayers or the electorate do not vote our "leaders" in to power ... that is done by or through the party caucus members!

There has never been a NZ "leader" (prime minister) that was voted in by any electorate! ... "EVER"! :oi-grr: (Definitely not in my lifetime anyway!)

scumdog

21st January 2014, 19:14

how the hell do you reckon that?

Im saying, here and now, and all the time, i dont consent.

Saying to who??
KB??:shifty:

Akzle

21st January 2014, 19:18

Saying to who??
KB??:shifty:

anyone who thinks they have some kind of implied right of access, authority, or any lawful excuse to do something without it.
(your gang, mostly)

scumdog

21st January 2014, 19:22

anyone who thinks they have some kind of implied right of access, authority, or any lawful excuse to do something without it.
(your gang, mostly)

Oh, I never got your letter - I must have been away doing something important...

Akzle

21st January 2014, 19:31

Oh, I never got your letter - I must have been away doing something important...

notice to agent is notice to principal, notice to principal is notice to agent.
you are an instrument of the crown.

ignorance is no excuse.

Laava

21st January 2014, 19:34

how the hell do you reckon that?

Im saying, here and now, and all the time, i dont consent.

It,s not up to you. You live in this democratic society despite what you might fantasize about. You have to abide by the same rules as all of us whether you like it or not. And don,t try giving us the old tough guy "i will do as I please" routine. It is getting a bit boring. Face the facts, you are no different to anyone else in NZ.

Akzle

21st January 2014, 19:54

It,s not up to you. You live in this democratic society despite what you might fantasize about. You have to abide by the same rules as all of us whether you like it or not. And don,t try giving us the old tough guy "i will do as I please" routine. It is getting a bit boring. Face the facts, you are no different to anyone else in NZ.

i disagree with everything you said.

And i do as i please, pretty much, so, uh. Yeah.

I did 105 yesterday. That must have been what caused the quake...

Scuba_Steve

21st January 2014, 19:58

It,s not up to you. You live in this democratic society despite what you might fantasize about. You have to abide by the same rules as all of us whether you like it or not. And don,t try giving us the old tough guy "i will do as I please" routine. It is getting a bit boring. Face the facts, you are no different to anyone else in NZ.

We don't have a democratic society! Sooner you learn that the better you'll be
The Politicians don't obey the rules, Ministry of "justice" & courts don't obey the rules, Police don't obey the rules, so why should anyone else obey the rules?

In-fact I bet you don't obey the rules

mashman

21st January 2014, 20:13

In-fact I bet you don't obey the rules

You mean, choosing to obey the law when he feels like it. Say it ain't so. Coz that would mean both he and Akzle treat society the same way.

Laava

21st January 2014, 20:14

We don't have a democratic society! Sooner you learn that the better you'll be
The Politicians don't obey the rules, Ministry of "justice" & courts don't obey the rules, Police don't obey the rules, so why should anyone else obey the rules?

In-fact I bet you don't obey the rules

You need to spend some time in a non democratic society. Then you will understand.

Laava

21st January 2014, 20:14

You mean, choosing to obey the law when he feels like it. Say it ain't so. Coz that would mean both he and Akzle treat society the same way.

Now you,re getting it!

oldrider

21st January 2014, 20:18

I did 105 yesterday. That must have been what caused the quake...

Yes it was ... you must be well endowed ( steady now) with magical powers! :2thumbsup

Remember the adage "Squeaky Akzle gets the grease"? .... You can't miss grasshopper, you will come up smelling of roses no matter what shit you fall into! :killingme

I kid Jew not! :lol:

Scuba_Steve

21st January 2014, 20:18

You need to spend some time in a non democratic society. Then you will understand.

:confused: umm, I'm living in one; been here awhile now.

Laava

21st January 2014, 20:20

:confused: umm, I'm living in one; been here awhile now.

You have no idea.

oneofsix

21st January 2014, 20:26

HAHA! A KB party! That would be hilarious!
"Are you looking for a soup of indescision? Endless circular arguments based on anything but facts? Vote KB!"
Who would be our frontman, I am warming to the idea!

It,s not up to you. You live in this democratic society despite what you might fantasize about. You have to abide by the same rules as all of us whether you like it or not. And don,t try giving us the old tough guy "i will do as I please" routine. It is getting a bit boring. Face the facts, you are no different to anyone else in NZ.

We don't have a democratic society! Sooner you learn that the better you'll be
The Politicians don't obey the rules, Ministry of "justice" & courts don't obey the rules, Police don't obey the rules, so why should anyone else obey the rules?

In-fact I bet you don't obey the rules

You need to spend some time in a non democratic society. Then you will understand.

:confused: umm, I'm living in one; been here awhile now.

You have no idea.

Refer first quote. All look who it was.

mashman

21st January 2014, 21:41

Now you,re getting it!

I wish i was.

avgas

22nd January 2014, 03:01

So you are starting to get it. If they wronged you, which they will of course, you exercise your right to vote for someone else. If there is someone else that suits you better.
And if there isn't?

I saw a dog chase its tail one day. Really stupid dog. But even he gave up.

avgas

22nd January 2014, 03:04

You need to spend some time in a non democratic society. Then you will understand.
He is right. If you did you would realize that there would be riots in the streets over what happens in NZ.
http://www.dismalworld.com/im/must_see/unforgettable-photos-15.jpg
By giving us the right to vote - they took away our reason to formally complain.
Made us stupid enough to think we have freedom.

Laava

22nd January 2014, 06:19

He is right. If you did you would realize that there would be riots in the streets over what happens in NZ.
Made us stupid enough to think we have freedom.

You will never have absolute freedom.
NZ would be one of the best countries in the world to enjoy would could be called freedom.
Go and live in Somalia, a country that does not have a government and see how free you feel. We all know the answer to that.

BoristheBiter

22nd January 2014, 06:44

and nothing is accomplished. sounds like a superling waste of time.

Just like you and your waste of oxygen.

BoristheBiter

22nd January 2014, 06:45

ignorance is no excuse.

So what is yours then?

Akzle

22nd January 2014, 06:47

You will never have absolute freedom.

Go and live in Somalia,

im not even seeking absolute freedom, whatever that is.

Im seeking the freedom to not do any harm, and the freedom to not have my day fucked up by anyone else.

Have you been to somalia?

Akzle

22nd January 2014, 06:49

youre slipping borris. Youre getting down to sv's level.

You need a hug.

BoristheBiter

22nd January 2014, 06:58

youre slipping borris. Youre getting down to sv's level.

You need a hug.

Slipping? at what? Responding to insignificunt wankers like you that prattle on about how they "stick it to the man" but really just sit behind a computer as they have nothing else to do?

mashman

22nd January 2014, 07:12

You will never have absolute freedom.

That's exactly what we all have. It's whether we choose to exercise it or not. A free man is free so long as he declares himself to be so and acts as he sees fit... the stick/gun/law is required to make sure you comply, but that's retrospective... ommmmmmmm

Bikemad

22nd January 2014, 07:22

Oh yeah, that is fair enough but I believe if you don,t vote in this democracy we live in then you have no right to complain either.

bullshit........paying my taxes gives me every right to complain regardless of whether i voted or not...........also if this were a true democracy there would be a box "non of the above" on the ballot paper as well............thats the one i would tick ..... oh.... and fatty .cum should just fuck off too........he ain't here to do anyone any favours but himself

Banditbandit

22nd January 2014, 09:51

I do not believe that John Key is the best leader we could have .. I might agree that he is the best of a bad bunch who have put their name forward (but "might" is very unlikely to turn into "is" ...) - I refuse to vote for such a wide boy trader - everything is for sale for a price ... and consequently we have no integrity in our Government ...

And fuck me .. get home and on the news - Teflon John is now saying he could work with Winston Peters, Peter Dunne ... selling out his integrity in exchange for the Government benches ...

anyone who thinks they have some kind of implied right of access, authority, or any lawful excuse to do something without it.
(your gang, mostly)

"Some watery tart distributing swords is no mandate for executive authority ..."

oldrider

22nd January 2014, 10:17

And fuck me .. get home and on the news - Teflon John is now saying he could work with Winston Peters, Peter Dunne ... selling out his integrity in exchange for the Government benches ...

Nobody in the electorate has got the slightest idea of who or what will be the next government make-up ... voting is akin to a raffle!

Even immediately after an MMP election the result is unknown and selling integrity etc for government positioning is rampant!

The politicians are in free fall and all the allegiances formed are to each other totally at the expense of the electorate! (voters)

Have you ever met an MMP voter that is happy with the result and satisfied that their vote got them what they voted for? :facepalm:

Watch that space and tell us that you had it tabbed and the election has gone exactly as you anticipated or desired! FFS it's a con job IMHO! :brick:

Oscar

22nd January 2014, 10:54

And fuck me .. get home and on the news - Teflon John is now saying he could work with Winston Peters, Peter Dunne ... selling out his integrity in exchange for the Government benches ...

At least he's made it clear what the make up of his govt. would be.
But the prospect of Winston in power would make me think twice about a National party vote.

Laava

22nd January 2014, 10:56

im not even seeking absolute freedom, whatever that is.

Im seeking the freedom to not do any harm, and the freedom to not have my day fucked up by anyone else.

Have you been to somalia?

Not sure why we are even talking about freedom and , no, I haven,t been to Somalia. I am not that stupid. Been to all the neighbouring countries though and spent some time in Uganda a country that is NOT a democracy. Spent a bit of time talking to residents there too both black and white.
In comparison, NZ is the land of milk and honey.

Akzle

22nd January 2014, 10:58

"Some watery tart distributing swords is no mandate for executive authority ..."

help help! Im being repressed!
See the violence inherent in the system!

(beat me to it, and cant bling again)

Akzle

22nd January 2014, 11:02

Not sure why we are even talking about freedom and , no, I haven,t been to Somalia. I am not that stupid. Been to all the neighbouring countries though and spent some time in Uganda a country that is NOT a democracy. Spent a bit of time talking to residents there too both black and white.
In comparison, NZ is the land of milk and honey.

so because some kid is having their eyes taken out with a hot soupspoon, and twenty thousand have died of starvation since morning wood:
we should be content to be only slightly enslaved for 6 decades?

TheDemonLord

22nd January 2014, 11:04

help help! Im being repressed!
See the violence inherent in the system!

(beat me to it, and cant bling again)

Bloody Peasant!

As for Voting - at the moment, I decline to Vote - I do not believe there is a candidate worth voting for. John Key maybe the best leader of the bunch - but he is far from ideal and I disagree with National on far too many of their policies.

Some people say that if I don't vote, I can't complain about who is in power, but I prefer to think of my non-voting is a critique on an inherently flawed system - it may be the best system we currently have, but it is still flawed.

I personally feel more and more that because Voting is percieved as a right in the western world, it is abused (as opposed to it being a privledge to vote)

Maybe if you had to somehow pass a Test to prove you were worthy of Voting....

Akzle

22nd January 2014, 11:09

Some people say that if I don't vote, I can't complain about who is in power, but I prefer to think of my non-voting is a critique on an inherently flawed system - it may be the best system we currently have, but it is still flawed.

i did a thread a while back, we're heading toward <50% of people who 'constructively' vote.
Once the oldies/believers like lava and oscar drop off, i think the system will find it hard to justify its existence.

Representative governance eh...

Laava

22nd January 2014, 11:20

so because some kid is having their eyes taken out with a hot soupspoon, and twenty thousand have died of starvation since morning wood:
we should be content to be only slightly enslaved for 6 decades?

Haha you,re funny!

TheDemonLord

22nd January 2014, 11:20

i did a thread a while back, we're heading toward <50% of people who 'constructively' vote.
Once the oldies/believers like lava and oscar drop off, i think the system will find it hard to justify its existence.

Representative governance eh...

Well, The oldies have a point - especially those that witnessed first or second hand what happens when a repressive government/dictator gets into power. But that does not make Democracy perfect, nor does it make it above criticism and nor should it make it immune to change to improve it.

If the system was better or more importantly, if the Candidates were better - I would vote.

but let me look at my current options:

National - I agree on some of their policies - but unfortunately as is the case with most conservative type parties, a lot of their social policies are about a decade or 2 out of date - normally resulting in desperate clinging to ideas that patently don't work

Labour - again, I agree with some of their policies, but their welfare and taxation policies are simply a pen stroke away from being criminal

The Greens - Fantastic public transport policies (and I am not being sarcastic here) but apart from that, what would a greens led government do - it would screw any form of business that used the environment in anyway and after they had done that they would sit around on their arses going 'We have saved the environment!' whilst we are going "well, yes, but what about the other things the Government needs to do?"

A vote for any other party will be by proxy (aka coalition) for the above 3

Laava

22nd January 2014, 11:21

Bloody Peasant!

As for Voting - at the moment, I decline to Vote - I do not believe there is a candidate worth voting for. John Key maybe the best leader of the bunch - but he is far from ideal and I disagree with National on far too many of their policies.

Some people say that if I don't vote, I can't complain about who is in power, but I prefer to think of my non-voting is a critique on an inherently flawed system - it may be the best system we currently have, but it is still flawed.

I personally feel more and more that because Voting is percieved as a right in the western world, it is abused (as opposed to it being a privledge to vote)

Maybe if you had to somehow pass a Test to prove you were worthy of Voting....

i did a thread a while back, we're heading toward <50% of people who 'constructively' vote.
Once the oldies/believers like lava and oscar drop off, i think the system will find it hard to justify its existence.

Representative governance eh...

So what do you guys propose instead? Genuinely interested.

Scuba_Steve

22nd January 2014, 11:50

In comparison, NZ is the land of milk and honey.

that's a bit racist, we have chocolate too :bleh:

Akzle

22nd January 2014, 11:50

So what do you guys propose instead? Genuinely interested.

youve dodged 3 of my posts but im expected to answer?

I can speak only for myself. I want the disestablishment of central government. I want whatever remains to aknowledge my previously stated rights.
I want legislation abolished, perhaps replaced with common sense common english T&Cs, either charter or constitution (ie formed by the informed consent of the people) at a 'council' level.
i want lawyers, judges and the old boys clubs put to the fire.
But righ nau, I want to smoke drugs, ride bikes and play with guns. So im going to go do that illegal shit.

TheDemonLord

22nd January 2014, 12:10

So what do you guys propose instead? Genuinely interested.

The main problems with Democracy at the moment are:

1: Lack of Perfect information/perfect Undestanting

What I mean by this is, Idiots vote on things they have neither the information (and no the front page of the herald does not qualify as genuine information) nor the ability to comprehend, yet they are able to vote with equal weight as someone who does have the information and understands the issue.

2: Candidates are chosen based on popularity as opposed to actual leadership qualities.

Although not as bad over here (well, John Key is a classic example of this) - but look at the US and how many actors have held positions of power - not to say that their policies have been bad (I don't care enough about US politics), but it clearly shows people are voting based on who is popular as the primary metric.

3: The inherant corruption with public/privately donations

the corruption isn't explicit per se (as in, pass this law for me and I will slip you a couple mill in a donation) but it is very implicit - yes donations over a certain amount have to be declared, but even if they are declared, there is still an expectation that the party will make policy in favour of that individual/organisation.

4: implementation of short sighted policies in order to appease the Masses

Margaret Thatcher was actually a good example of someone who didn't do this - and people hated her for it, yet the reality of her tenure in the UK is that because of the policies she implemented, Britain ended up in a better off position.

5: Politicians

what I mean by this is people who have worked their way through a system and now operate in a way that maximises their standing in that system as opposed to benefitting the country. Sure occassionally the 2 intertwine and we get progress

There are other issues, but those are the main ones.

So how do we combat them?

First thing I would do would be to make donations to parties illegal - all campaign funding must be done on a set budget, yes this would mean that tax payer money had to go to a party, but the alternative is a legal form of corruption

Next we need some form of weighting system that means an Educated hard working, law abiding citizen has more weight behind his vote than a semi illiterate dole bludging criminal

Then we need some form of performance review for a politician, one that provides incentives to do things as requested by their constituents/keeping to their campaign promises and failure to meet these results in consequences.

The other issue I am not too sure how to fix them, but the above should certainly make some changes happen

oldrider

22nd January 2014, 12:21

The party system is the biggest problem, there are plenty of worthy candidates up for election but this MMP system locks them into parties!

Good politicians are required to toe the party line or suffer the consequences of political oblivion and/or public ridicule! (A media protected system)

We don't need anywhere near as many politicians sucking on the public tit, majority decisions are driven by a few in the party caucus anyway!

We (the electorate) expressed dissatisfaction with FPP (with good reason) and got this MMP bullshit sprung onto us compliments of the (free?) press and media generally!

Democracy my ass, we go and do what we are told to do and bullshitted into believing that it was our own idea! ... Democracy by stupidity!

Politicians in power in NZ dance to the tune of the financial controllers .. I.E. he who pays the piper calls the tune ... "their tune every time" .. not ours! :oi-grr:

Akzle

22nd January 2014, 12:56

can yall stop calling it demoracy and call it for what it is?
:faux mob rule.

Laava

22nd January 2014, 12:58

The main problems with Democracy at the moment are:

1: Lack of Perfect information/perfect Undestanting

What I mean by this is, Idiots vote on things they have neither the information (and no the front page of the herald does not qualify as genuine information) nor the ability to comprehend, yet they are able to vote with equal weight as someone who does have the information and understands the issue.

2: Candidates are chosen based on popularity as opposed to actual leadership qualities.

Although not as bad over here (well, John Key is a classic example of this) - but look at the US and how many actors have held positions of power - not to say that their policies have been bad (I don't care enough about US politics), but it clearly shows people are voting based on who is popular as the primary metric.

3: The inherant corruption with public/privately donations

the corruption isn't explicit per se (as in, pass this law for me and I will slip you a couple mill in a donation) but it is very implicit - yes donations over a certain amount have to be declared, but even if they are declared, there is still an expectation that the party will make policy in favour of that individual/organisation.

4: implementation of short sighted policies in order to appease the Masses

Margaret Thatcher was actually a good example of someone who didn't do this - and people hated her for it, yet the reality of her tenure in the UK is that because of the policies she implemented, Britain ended up in a better off position.

5: Politicians

what I mean by this is people who have worked their way through a system and now operate in a way that maximises their standing in that system as opposed to benefitting the country. Sure occassionally the 2 intertwine and we get progress

There are other issues, but those are the main ones.

So how do we combat them?

First thing I would do would be to make donations to parties illegal - all campaign funding must be done on a set budget, yes this would mean that tax payer money had to go to a party, but the alternative is a legal form of corruption

Next we need some form of weighting system that means an Educated hard working, law abiding citizen has more weight behind his vote than a semi illiterate dole bludging criminal

Then we need some form of performance review for a politician, one that provides incentives to do things as requested by their constituents/keeping to their campaign promises and failure to meet these results in consequences.

The other issue I am not too sure how to fix them, but the above should certainly make some changes happen

Thanks for your serious answer. So it would seem you are happy with the present system tidied up a lot?
We all want that tho don,t we? Problem with and answer to a democracy is you vote in who appeals to you the most and then if you are entirely unsatisfied, you must lead by example which, rightly or wrongly is what Dotcom is hoping to do.
Axle just wants anarchy. Which has been achieved but longterm is a big backward step.
Why don,t you put your money where your mouth is Rob and form an Anarchy party?
Oh yeah. Cos no-one who supports you will vote! Catch 22 eh

Laava

22nd January 2014, 13:00

can yall stop calling it demoracy and call it for what it is?
:faux mob rule.

Yeah there will always be an element of that in a democracy. Better than them having a dictatorship tho.

TheDemonLord

22nd January 2014, 13:09

Thanks for your serious answer. So it would seem you are happy with the present system tidied up a lot?
We all want that tho don,t we? Problem with and answer to a democracy is you vote in who appeals to you the most and then if you are entirely unsatisfied, you must lead by example which, rightly or wrongly is what Dotcom is hoping to do.
Axle just wants anarchy. Which has been achieved but longterm is a big backward step.
Why don,t you put your money where your mouth is Rob and form an Anarchy party?
Oh yeah. Cos no-one who supports you will vote! Catch 22 eh

Well, Democracy is the best system we have currently (when compared to the other alternatives) so I am all for improving the best we have.

Maybe a completely new system would fix the inherant issues with Democracy, but I cannot imagine a system that would be bother fair and equitable whilst also accounting for Human Nature (in short to say, People like Power and Money and any system needs to account and balance for that - Democracy does the best job compared to its peers, but it still does a pretty shitty job)

I will say this - when someone comes along who I believe to be worthy of my vote, I will exercise it.

as for your Anarchy party - give me the Budget of the 2 big parties to campaign with, and I reckon I could create a party to compete with them - except it wouldn't be called the Anarchy party, it would be something that included Buzz words to make the drooling idiots vote for it (so NZ, something to do with progress etc. etc.)

mashman

22nd January 2014, 13:22

I want the disestablishment of central government.
I want whatever remains to aknowledge my previously stated rights.
I want legislation abolished, perhaps replaced with common sense common english T&Cs, either charter or constitution (ie formed by the informed consent of the people) at a 'council' level.
i want lawyers, judges and the old boys clubs put to the fire.
But righ nau, I want to smoke drugs, ride bikes and play with guns. So im going to go do that illegal shit.

"My" NOW will give you all of the above... apart from the old boys club being put to fire. Obviously you could do that, but then you;d be up on a murder charge.

The main problems with Democracy at the moment are:

1: Lack of Perfect information/perfect Undestanting

What I mean by this is, Idiots vote on things they have neither the information (and no the front page of the herald does not qualify as genuine information) nor the ability to comprehend, yet they are able to vote with equal weight as someone who does have the information and understands the issue.

2: Candidates are chosen based on popularity as opposed to actual leadership qualities.

Although not as bad over here (well, John Key is a classic example of this) - but look at the US and how many actors have held positions of power - not to say that their policies have been bad (I don't care enough about US politics), but it clearly shows people are voting based on who is popular as the primary metric.

3: The inherant corruption with public/privately donations

the corruption isn't explicit per se (as in, pass this law for me and I will slip you a couple mill in a donation) but it is very implicit - yes donations over a certain amount have to be declared, but even if they are declared, there is still an expectation that the party will make policy in favour of that individual/organisation.

4: implementation of short sighted policies in order to appease the Masses

Margaret Thatcher was actually a good example of someone who didn't do this - and people hated her for it, yet the reality of her tenure in the UK is that because of the policies she implemented, Britain ended up in a better off position.

5: Politicians

what I mean by this is people who have worked their way through a system and now operate in a way that maximises their standing in that system as opposed to benefitting the country. Sure occassionally the 2 intertwine and we get progress

There are other issues, but those are the main ones.

So how do we combat them?

First thing I would do would be to make donations to parties illegal - all campaign funding must be done on a set budget, yes this would mean that tax payer money had to go to a party, but the alternative is a legal form of corruption

Next we need some form of weighting system that means an Educated hard working, law abiding citizen has more weight behind his vote than a semi illiterate dole bludging criminal

Then we need some form of performance review for a politician, one that provides incentives to do things as requested by their constituents/keeping to their campaign promises and failure to meet these results in consequences.

The other issue I am not too sure how to fix them, but the above should certainly make some changes happen

1. The only real reason that happens is because things are done for political reasons and not because it's the right thing to do. Akzle's "I want the disestablishment of central government" and bringing decision making locally would give more visibility of that.

2. You can't stop people seeking power. You can only sack them should you be upset about it. This should not take 3 years. "My" NOW will treat positions of power as just another job. You can remove them should you have enough votes.

3. "My" NOW removes the financial system, therefore removing the incentives and mechanisms that are associated with corruption and expedient policy.

4. See 1 & 3. (especially doing things for the right reasons)

5. See 2.

As for how you would combat the above:

Why let money get in the way of real progress. Remove the financial system and there are no donations, the tax payer doesn't have to pay, and minimal corruption will exist.

Weighting human beings: that's exactly what happens and is directly responsible for class systems, poverty, the under privileged etc... What you perceive as a dumb person may well be an absolute fuckin genius, but they may not be at the point where they wish to apply themselves in a manner that you see fit. What you mentions has been tried, tested and failed and is not successful policy imho.

Incentives will open politicians up to the highest bidder... which is exactly what happens now. Holding politicians to account? That hasn't worked thus far. Much better to get rid of them and put a job in the place where the politicians would have been?

Other issues: Try looking at them without a financial system in place. You'd be surprised at how much more effective that would be in regards to your "wishes".

bogan

22nd January 2014, 13:39

First thing I would do would be to make donations to parties illegal - all campaign funding must be done on a set budget, yes this would mean that tax payer money had to go to a party, but the alternative is a legal form of corruption

Next we need some form of weighting system that means an Educated hard working, law abiding citizen has more weight behind his vote than a semi illiterate dole bludging criminal

Then we need some form of performance review for a politician, one that provides incentives to do things as requested by their constituents/keeping to their campaign promises and failure to meet these results in consequences.

The other issue I am not too sure how to fix them, but the above should certainly make some changes happen

Budget for each party, or budget proportional to party size? I mean I don't fancy giving that white supremacist party plonker as much money as the parties who actually have a shot.

Weighting system is too removed from the individuals aptitude if all you base it on is public standing. Should be weighted on voter aptitude, nothing else. Which of course is currently impossible to measure with only one vote every 3 years.
Overhaul this shit to a true democracy, where politicians are the voice to the people, not of the people. Everyone is able to vote on any issue (the tech is pretty much there), it is the politicians job to put the correct information out there in order to get votes. People who vote on smarter policies (retrospective analysis of previous votes) are given more voting weight than those who vote on popularity alone. etc, etc.

TheDemonLord

22nd January 2014, 13:59

"My" NOW will give you all of the above... apart from the old boys club being put to fire. Obviously you could do that, but then you;d be up on a murder charge.

1. The only real reason that happens is because things are done for political reasons and not because it's the right thing to do. Akzle's "I want the disestablishment of central government" and bringing decision making locally would give more visibility of that.

2. You can't stop people seeking power. You can only sack them should you be upset about it. This should not take 3 years. "My" NOW will treat positions of power as just another job. You can remove them should you have enough votes.

3. "My" NOW removes the financial system, therefore removing the incentives and mechanisms that are associated with corruption and expedient policy.

4. See 1 & 3. (especially doing things for the right reasons)

5. See 2.

As for how you would combat the above:

Why let money get in the way of real progress. Remove the financial system and there are no donations, the tax payer doesn't have to pay, and minimal corruption will exist.

Weighting human beings: that's exactly what happens and is directly responsible for class systems, poverty, the under privileged etc... What you perceive as a dumb person may well be an absolute fuckin genius, but they may not be at the point where they wish to apply themselves in a manner that you see fit. What you mentions has been tried, tested and failed and is not successful policy imho.

Incentives will open politicians up to the highest bidder... which is exactly what happens now. Holding politicians to account? That hasn't worked thus far. Much better to get rid of them and put a job in the place where the politicians would have been?

Other issues: Try looking at them without a financial system in place. You'd be surprised at how much more effective that would be in regards to your "wishes".

To respond to your points:

1: Local decision making is inherently ineffective and tends to lead to incompatibility with other systems/solutions - the age old 'left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing'

2: Funnily enough, I don't have a problem with people seeking power, my critique is more along the lines of this:

If you were intereviewing for a chief engineer - and you had 2 candidates - one with 20 years engineering experiance, solid work record, Engineering degree from MIT, the other has none of these yet is extremely popular with everyone - who would you choose?

Yet in politics - we are in effect choosing the later option (I concede here that currently there is no way to accuratel gauge someone in the same way as candidate 1 in the above example)

3: I heard this alot - especially from the Occupy Idiots - the problem with removing the Financial system is that it breaks just about every facet of our current society - sure this can be implied as a critique of the Financial system and this is not to say that the Financial system is above criticism or cannot be improved.

Think on this - without the Generation of Credit (so not removing the Financial system, just one part of it) think of all the things you couldn't do - you couldn't buy a house, you couldn't get startup for a business, most of us wouldn't be able to get the nice bikes we rather enjoy etc. etc.

Even if the Current financial system was removed, Corruption would still exist as whatever takes it place would be susceptible to the same abuse as money is currently. Money and the financial system isn't the problem - Human Nature is and whatever replaces Money (something would have to take some or all of its place) would be manipulated just as money is now.

But it is easier to point the finger at Money as opposed to pointing the finger at ourselves

As to your points on Class based systems - I am sorry but you are entirely wrong on this point - Class based systems (as they have existed in the real world) are entirely arbitrary and to do with where and to whom you were born. I am talking about a system that judges the individual on their own merits. To use your analogy of someone who could be a genius - if they actively choose not to apply themselves - are they any better than the idiots they are bunched with? if they take issue with this, then let them apply a little effort and reap the rewards. Also on an aside - Generally most genius level people will be able to score well in a test, even if outside of the test situation they are lazy

Finally - If the highest (and only) bidder is the people, then this may alter the behaviours - I agree holding Politicians to account hasn't worked so far - but that is because the people that try and hold them accountable are other politicians (glass houses, throwing stones)

Akzle

22nd January 2014, 14:06

Why don,t you put your money where your mouth is Rob and form an Anarchy party?
Oh yeah. Cos no-one who supports you will vote! Catch 22 eh

i think you missed the salient point, of NOT having an adversarial party farce-tym.

TheDemonLord

22nd January 2014, 14:13

Budget for each party, or budget proportional to party size? I mean I don't fancy giving that white supremacist party plonker as much money as the parties who actually have a shot.

Weighting system is too removed from the individuals aptitude if all you base it on is public standing. Should be weighted on voter aptitude, nothing else. Which of course is currently impossible to measure with only one vote every 3 years.
Overhaul this shit to a true democracy, where politicians are the voice to the people, not of the people. Everyone is able to vote on any issue (the tech is pretty much there), it is the politicians job to put the correct information out there in order to get votes. People who vote on smarter policies (retrospective analysis of previous votes) are given more voting weight than those who vote on popularity alone. etc, etc.

Set budget for each party - let them compete on a level playing field and on the merits of their campaign instead how fancy their TV ad is.

unfortnately - smarter policies are subjective, sure most policies that have been smart have been succesful, but this is not always the case. The idea is that a smarter person is able to use their smarts to determine which policies are smarter - I grant you that it will not be bullet proof (and smart people might vote for stupid policies if it benefits them) but it should be better than what we currently have

Akzle

22nd January 2014, 14:17

1: Local decision making is inherently ineffective and tends to lead to incompatibility with other systems/solutions - the age old 'left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing'

the problem with removing the Financial system is that it breaks just about every facet of our current society

Think on this - without the Generation of Credit

But it is easier to point the finger at Money as opposed to pointing the finger at ourselves

fuck me.
1) who gives a fuck what the hand is doing, as long as it isnt fucking my day up?
Having small, local groups, making decisions FOR local areas removes about 30 layers of beauracracy from the current m.o. Gets relevant shit done quick.

2) you clearly havent read, thought on, or discussed the NOW.

3)generation of debt*
all 'money' is debt (legal tender) an ursurious system where private corporations print capital but not interest and sell to/indebt 'nations'...
Tell me how to balance the books on that one.

bogan

22nd January 2014, 14:25

Set budget for each party - let them compete on a level playing field and on the merits of their campaign instead how fancy their TV ad is.

unfortnately - smarter policies are subjective, sure most policies that have been smart have been succesful, but this is not always the case. The idea is that a smarter person is able to use their smarts to determine which policies are smarter - I grant you that it will not be bullet proof (and smart people might vote for stupid policies if it benefits them) but it should be better than what we currently have

Some are subjective, some are not. And, this way would encourage proposed policies to have a measurable outcome established. Like voting on the speeding tolerance, a measureable outcome would be graded on lives saved and accidents reduced, and those promoting it would have to name an expectation, 15% drop or whatever. If you voted for that, and there was no measurable drop, then bad voting, lose some voting weight. Party's rep is tied to that as well. Whereas now, nobody votes on it, and numptys just blither on about how it must be effective cos if you can stop shorter when doing 104 instead of 109... And look what we get, more ineffective policies and no option to change them.

TheDemonLord

22nd January 2014, 14:29

fuck me.
1) who gives a fuck what the hand is doing, as long as it isnt fucking my day up?
Having small, local groups, making decisions FOR local areas removes about 30 layers of beauracracy from the current m.o. Gets relevant shit done quick.

2) you clearly havent read, thought on, or discussed the NOW.

3)generation of debt*
all 'money' is debt (legal tender) an ursurious system where private corporations print capital but not interest and sell to/indebt 'nations'...
Tell me how to balance the books on that one.

1) That is precisely the short sighted vision that cause half of the problems "Fuck everyone else, so long as I'm okay"
Sure I grant you that it gets shit done quickly.... only to find that then they have to either completely change what they are doing (because its incompatable with systems it needs to be compatable with) or everyone has to do a retarded work around when they go outside the local area

2) If you can provide some relevant links, will be happy to read - but I doubt it will change my opinion unless it is backed up by logic and things that will work in the real world

3) No where did I say the Financial system is perfect, but the same system that fucks over nations who over borrow, is the same system that allows you to have a roof over your head and a Bike between your legs - removal of Debt/Credit breaks so many facets of society which often I hear people calling for - but when you ask what they suggest they replace it with, they are curiously mute or suggest ideas that aren't practicle or completely ignore human nature

TheDemonLord

22nd January 2014, 14:31

Some are subjective, some are not. And, this way would encourage proposed policies to have a measurable outcome established. Like voting on the speeding tolerance, a measureable outcome would be graded on lives saved and accidents reduced, and those promoting it would have to name an expectation, 15% drop or whatever. If you voted for that, and there was no measurable drop, then bad voting, lose some voting weight. Party's rep is tied to that as well. Whereas now, nobody votes on it, and numptys just blither on about how it must be effective cos if you can stop shorter when doing 104 instead of 109... And look what we get, more ineffective policies and no option to change them.

Hmmmm Interesting Ideas - basically KPI for Policies - so if you policy hits its target of intended effect, your voting power increases.

Could work - would be one hell of a Database to support it, but could work with current technology

Akzle

22nd January 2014, 15:52

yadayadayada

so, money or sleep outside?
Good system. Bet your stoked to give 50% of your working life to keep that going.

Short sighted? No.
Youre framing your thoughts by what already is.
The akzlepocalypse comes with a few re-jigs.

When theres only two laws, there is fuckall you can fundamentally fuck up between districts to make it incompatible.

Akzle

22nd January 2014, 15:55

Some are subjective, some are not. And, this way would encourage proposed policies to have a measurable outcome established. Like voting on the speeding tolerance, a measureable outcome would be graded on lives saved and accidents reduced, and those promoting it would have to name an expectation, 15% drop or whatever. If you voted for that, and there was no measurable drop, then bad voting, lose some voting weight. Party's rep is tied to that as well. Whereas now, nobody votes on it, and numptys just blither on about how it must be effective cos if you can stop shorter when doing 104 instead of 109... And look what we get, more ineffective policies and no option to change them.

that might work. If everything was empiracly repeatable.

As it is, how would you measure /define the happiness of the nation?

Akzle

22nd January 2014, 15:58

3) No where did I say the Financial system is perfect, but...

you didnt answer the question. How do you repay a debt when the only way to meet the ursury is to borrow more, as capital?
How do you balance those books?

Banditbandit

22nd January 2014, 16:09

I want whatever remains to aknowledge my previously stated rights.

Rights ?? There is no such thing - there is only what people are prepared to fight for ...

mashman

22nd January 2014, 16:09

To respond to your points:

1: Local decision making is inherently ineffective and tends to lead to incompatibility with other systems/solutions - the age old 'left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing'

2: Funnily enough, I don't have a problem with people seeking power, my critique is more along the lines of this:

If you were intereviewing for a chief engineer - and you had 2 candidates - one with 20 years engineering experiance, solid work record, Engineering degree from MIT, the other has none of these yet is extremely popular with everyone - who would you choose?

Yet in politics - we are in effect choosing the later option (I concede here that currently there is no way to accuratel gauge someone in the same way as candidate 1 in the above example)

3: I heard this alot - especially from the Occupy Idiots - the problem with removing the Financial system is that it breaks just about every facet of our current society - sure this can be implied as a critique of the Financial system and this is not to say that the Financial system is above criticism or cannot be improved.

Think on this - without the Generation of Credit (so not removing the Financial system, just one part of it) think of all the things you couldn't do - you couldn't buy a house, you couldn't get startup for a business, most of us wouldn't be able to get the nice bikes we rather enjoy etc. etc.

Even if the Current financial system was removed, Corruption would still exist as whatever takes it place would be susceptible to the same abuse as money is currently. Money and the financial system isn't the problem - Human Nature is and whatever replaces Money (something would have to take some or all of its place) would be manipulated just as money is now.

But it is easier to point the finger at Money as opposed to pointing the finger at ourselves

As to your points on Class based systems - I am sorry but you are entirely wrong on this point - Class based systems (as they have existed in the real world) are entirely arbitrary and to do with where and to whom you were born. I am talking about a system that judges the individual on their own merits. To use your analogy of someone who could be a genius - if they actively choose not to apply themselves - are they any better than the idiots they are bunched with? if they take issue with this, then let them apply a little effort and reap the rewards. Also on an aside - Generally most genius level people will be able to score well in a test, even if outside of the test situation they are lazy

Finally - If the highest (and only) bidder is the people, then this may alter the behaviours - I agree holding Politicians to account hasn't worked so far - but that is because the people that try and hold them accountable are other politicians (glass houses, throwing stones)

1. Only is you assume that there is no resource management system. If there is, the left hand and the right hand will know exactly what they're doing... in fact cooperation will be a pre-requisite as we will want the best ofthe best in every area. Build it once, build it properly and upgradeable etc...

2. If I were interviewing, I would take both... that's if the likeable guy wants a job. then I'd stick them both together and the new kid will get an instant mentor. The politics won't be an issue then. There is a level of cronyism that fooks things up quite considerably, but the real problem is that there is no one to keep them honest. The oppositions don't and I fail to see how the people can, especially as they are "chosen" to do the job of managing the country whilst the rest of us manage what we're doing. Why should we be keeping an eye on them too?

3. You may have heard about it, but it also sounds like you dismissed it because of the messenger and decided to give it no further thought. The Occupy idiots, as you call them, all have very valid reasons for why they were/are protesting and very few of them, I never head of ONE, wanted to get rid of the financial system.

In regards to your Generation of Credit: You wouldn't need to buy a house, because there would still be people building houses, because people would need to be housed (there'd be less leaky houses too because they wouldn;t be built to the lowest spec using the worst materials, because they materials wouldn't cost. They would likely lasy a damned site longer too and have less "health" related issues driven by the lack of quality.). You wouldn't need anything to startup a business, just an idea that was of use to people, then it could just start (you wouldn't have to worry about the number of staff yoiu had either). Why wouldn't we be able to get nice bikes'n'stuff? etc... You're the one saying it would fail, I'd like a logical and reasonable explanation as to why please.

In regards to human nature, other than it really doesn't exist (people change, which means they have no set nature. It's all learned behaviour), I'd like to understand how these people could "rort" a system without the power of money having a hold over their "slaves"? Not saying people won't try to feather their own nests, but if there are people in their locale watching them, it's going to be much much much harder to rort. Replace money with nothing. You do your job, I'll do mine, we both rely on other to do theirs. Where's the problem?

So how do class's grow and shrink depending on how much money is available to that class? It has nothing to do with birth. Would you call John Key working class? Or Einstein? etc... born into working class family's, yet you'd hardly call them working class. If someone has the ability, then wait until they're ready to use it. They could turn out to be the next Einstein/Britten/Hawking/Gandhi etc... you just never know. So I ain't gonna leave them in squaller because they aren't applying themselves. It'll may well make them not want to try in the future. Generally isn't good enough. A test is nought much more than the retention of knowledge and if a person doesn't want to learn, what are the chances they're going to be labelled a dumb shit even though the opposite is true?

True that there's no one to hold politicians to account, but there never has beenand even if there were, do you think they're going to remain honest, or do you think those who seek power will corrupt those applying the oversight? Given what goes on, the latter seems more likely. As mentioned earlier, the politicians are there to serve the people, they don't, the likely never will because they are busy doing their job... just like the politicians are supposed to be doing... but they don't.

In regards to NOW, here's an example of how it could work (http://www.now-nz.com/Home/Examples). By all means read the rest and should you need to, just click on the link in my sig. The best thing about NOW (or an alternative Resource Based Economy), is that the people have never been asked if they would like to live under such a system. So saying that people wouldn't is dis-ingenious. So far, it's about 50 - 50 according to the great KB poll. Get it on the ballot and let's see eh ;)

Akzle

22nd January 2014, 16:56

Rights ?? There is no such thing - there is only what people are prepared to fight for ...

fight against __________________

(hint: those who infringe against your rights)
if it comes down to who fights the best... Ninjas will win whicg would be pretty badass, really.

mashman

22nd January 2014, 17:28

fight against __________________

(hint: those who infringe against your rights)
if it comes down to who fights the best... Ninjas will win whicg would be pretty badass, really.

Rubbish... glasses wearing female child/pregnant midgets will fight best, coz no one will expect them... not even the spanish inquisition.

Akzle

22nd January 2014, 18:17

Rubbish... glasses wearing female child/pregnant midgets will fight best, coz no one will expect them... not even the spanish inquisition.

well we definitely cant have women making decisions. So midgets it is.

Swoop

22nd January 2014, 18:22

I,d vote for the fat bastard, as long as he promised to stop making music.
Odd. On the back of an Auckland bus today, there was an advert for his album "Good times" on the back.

Can I download a pirate version from the Mega website?

:scratch:

mashman

22nd January 2014, 19:01

well we definitely cant have women making decisions. So midgets it is.

Fair enough... but that opens the door for Hyde again.

oldrider

22nd January 2014, 20:40

Fair enough... but that opens the door for Hyde again.

Dot.Com, Len Brown, this country is just loaded with political gems waiting in the wings as well as that wonderful list of current aspiring leaders currently offering!

We are spoilt for choice in this country! :rofl:

TheDemonLord

22nd January 2014, 21:05

Okay, lots to reply to and I am posting on my phone - excuse the brevity and typos:

Azkle - sure I might give 50% of my working life to own a house, but I also give that to be an inheritance to my hypothetical children and for That - I am truly stoked

You didnt provide an actual point with your dismissal of the short sighted comment

Next we have the notion that there wont be incompatibilities - do you know why engineering standards exist? Its because if they didnt people would just 'do it their way' imagine you went from one council area to another, the road signs are all different, the power grid ran at a different voltage, your cell phone wont work due to different frequencies etc. There are a multitude of things that require standardisation.

Finally to your balancing the books statement - the answer is fiscally responsible borrowing - something that elludes both nations and people alike - but I guess its easier to blame those evil corporations right?

Mashman

1 history has shown that without some central governance, what you think will happen is just a pipe dream.

2 Ultimately it must be we the people who keep an eye on them, as we are the ones who suffer when we dont

3 so I read that website - and I will be polite - its deluded.

Let me expand - it is communism 2.0 - but remember how it failed misrably in Russia? Let me explain.

Suppose l ask a builder to build me a house - the builder then puts in 400 hours to build my house (something that takes skill and training to do) and I contribute to society 400 hours of grass cutting (not something that requires the same level of skill)

Who got the better deal? Then the builder says 'why should I spend all my time being an apprentice when I can just cut grass and get a sweet house?'

Not to mention the problem of resource scarcity....

Unless of course we assign an arbitrary value to the goods and services that we supply that is easily divible, wildly accepted and highly mobile. Funnily enough these are the atributes of money.

In these fairy tale systems - the ultimate failure is the same one that the NOW front page pointed out in its spiel about why if all debt was wiped - we would still end up in the same position. People. People are the problem.

Onto human nature - in short there is evolutionary advantage to be greedy and seek power, dont believe me? Look at the male lion or the alpha wolf or the bull elephant. We are for the most part confirming to millions of years of genetic hard coding.

Classes shrink and grow due to biths, marriages and luck. As for tests, if you think all tests are simply a regurgitation of rote learning then you do not understand how the IQ test works - sure it isnt perfect and there is debate as to other forms of intelligence (such as emotional) but that is a different debate.

mashman

22nd January 2014, 22:31

1 history has shown that without some central governance, what you think will happen is just a pipe dream.

2 Ultimately it must be we the people who keep an eye on them, as we are the ones who suffer when we dont

3 so I read that website - and I will be polite - its deluded.

Let me expand - it is communism 2.0 - but remember how it failed misrably in Russia? Let me explain.

Suppose l ask a builder to build me a house - the builder then puts in 400 hours to build my house (something that takes skill and training to do) and I contribute to society 400 hours of grass cutting (not something that requires the same level of skill)

Who got the better deal? Then the builder says 'why should I spend all my time being an apprentice when I can just cut grass and get a sweet house?'

Not to mention the problem of resource scarcity....

Unless of course we assign an arbitrary value to the goods and services that we supply that is easily divible, wildly accepted and highly mobile. Funnily enough these are the atributes of money.

In these fairy tale systems - the ultimate failure is the same one that the NOW front page pointed out in its spiel about why if all debt was wiped - we would still end up in the same position. People. People are the problem.

Onto human nature - in short there is evolutionary advantage to be greedy and seek power, dont believe me? Look at the male lion or the alpha wolf or the bull elephant. We are for the most part confirming to millions of years of genetic hard coding.

Classes shrink and grow due to biths, marriages and luck. As for tests, if you think all tests are simply a regurgitation of rote learning then you do not understand how the IQ test works - sure it isnt perfect and there is debate as to other forms of intelligence (such as emotional) but that is a different debate.

1. I grant you that it has been the norm, but communism had central governance and you decided that that didn't work. So central governance isn't the issue. What you seem to be alluding to is, without the threat of violence, people will do what they want and the world will descend into chaos. Theorising that that would be the case without understanding how such a system would function isn't exactly what I would call a valid critique is it?

2. Agreed, we do need to keep an eye on them... but given that people work during the day, have a family to look after for the rest of the time whilst they're awake. How will that happen? I would venture that it won't.

3. No offence taken... Why is it deluded? real reasons, not, oh it's pipe dreams, it's fairy tales, it's communism, it's stupid etc... they are not reasons and I would venture that you have ignored the salient point that people have not been educated in regards to a NOW let alone been asked whether they would live in it. As I said earlier I posted a poll on here and the result is approx 50 - 50. So 50% don't think it's deluded. They must be space cadet dummies, right?

Communism never existed. As what you seem to be referring to as communism still used a financial system. So NOW and what you call communism is apples and oranges.

Everyone got the better deal, because grass got cut and houses go built. 2 jobs that needed done and if the builder decides to cut grass as his "contribution", then who's going to build houses? Do builders only ever become builders to make money? I'm guessing not all of them started off that way, but actually wanted to build houses.

Resource scarcity will become a problem. If money is involved resources will go to those who can afford it, not necessarily those who need it. That's what you seem to be advocating.

The value will be in what the resources are used for, not what they are worth. Where is the value in resources used for producing Barbie Dolls? The world can do without Barbie Dolls, but they make money, so people will waste the resources. You're happy to accept that given that resource scarcity is on the horizon?

People aren't the problem, yes they can be cunts, but the environment under which they function encourages that behaviour. As mentioned earlier, there are billions of people who are "good", the vast majority most likely... so take theft as a for instance. Under a financial system, people can fuck people over big time by taking their money. Under NOW, that can't happen. Also, why would anyone take something from someone else if the thing that they want is free at the shops? You have changed the way people behave by changing the environment under which they function.

If it was human nature and hard wired into our genetic code, we'd be fighting like the animals and we'd all be gredy and seeking power. The vast majority of us don't, we cooperate. Perhaps those "alpha's" need to evolve coz the rest of us have moved on from beating our chests and waging war on comparitively defenseless countries. If you had have left them in a hippy household, they would have probably turned out to be pacifists. It's learned behaviour, not human nature.

So how do you explain the recent reports that state that the middle class is shrinking? It has nothing to do with mortality and has everything to do with the GFC. Of course it's rote. If it wasn't, then you couldn't learn how to answer the questions and up your IQ. You can. Go ask a 5 year old to sit an IQ test. But yeah, another topic.

avgas

23rd January 2014, 05:55

You will never have absolute freedom.
NZ would be one of the best countries in the world to enjoy would could be called freedom.
Go and live in Somalia, a country that does not have a government and see how free you feel. We all know the answer to that.
Ha, what a moron quote :bleh:
Did you parents used to tell you to eat your dinner and think of the starving kids in Africa. Never mind the fact of logistics of getting your dinner there.

I am not saying we should have no government - I saying we should fix the way they are elected. But that sounds way over your head.
Somalia's problems exist due to its borders (or lack of). The shear fact you do not know that or anything to do with the associated warlords of Somalia tells me you have never been there. A government would simply be another form of tax for Somalians.

NZ is one of the best countries in the world in many things. Including governance. But it is far from efficient or perfect - I think that can change VERY EASILY. The same as we did when we allowed for the indigenous people and women to vote. We WERE a world leader in political reform. Now we are following. Why?

Akzle

23rd January 2014, 06:09

Azkle - sure I might give 50% of my working life to own a house, but I also give that to be an inheritance to my hypothetical children and for That - I am truly stoked

You didnt provide an actual point with your dismissal of the short sighted comment

Next we have the notion that there wont be incompatibilities - do you know why engineering standards exist?

Finally to your balancing the books statement - the answer is fiscally responsible borrowing

1. no, 50% of your energy is taken as tax. That 50% props up a system you admit is flawed.

B. Yes i did. It was (quote)
Youre framing your thoughts by what already is.

4. PLEASE. How. When you borrow a dollar that costs a dollar fiddy,
and the only way to pay the fiddy is to borrow it, which costs fiddy and a quarter.
HOW DO YOU GET OUT OF JEW DEBT?
Fiscal responsibility does not mean borrowing. Oxymoron.

iii. Fuck it. Im done with you.

Youre framing your thoughts by what already is.

Akzle

23rd January 2014, 06:32

The same as we did when we allowed ...women to vote.

We WERE a world leader in political reform. Now we are following. Why?

we allowed ...women to vote.
. .

TheDemonLord

23rd January 2014, 07:49

1. no, 50% of your energy is taken as tax. That 50% props up a system you admit is flawed.

B. Yes i did. It was (quote)
Youre framing your thoughts by what already is.

4. PLEASE. How. When you borrow a dollar that costs a dollar fiddy,
and the only way to pay the fiddy is to borrow it, which costs fiddy and a quarter.
HOW DO YOU GET OUT OF JEW DEBT?
Fiscal responsibility does not mean borrowing. Oxymoron.

iii. Fuck it. Im done with you.

Youre framing your thoughts by what already is.

1: What is the Alternative then - user pays for every service? because that works so well where it is implemented

4: you earn $2, pay the $1.50, save the $0.5 - I am going to ignore the anti-semetic ranting - it has no place in a civilised debate.

The maths is simple really - if you earn $1,000/week, and you need $500/week to live, you can borrow any amount of Money so long as as the repayments do not exceed $500/week and the term of the loan does not exceed your natural life span.

This is Fiscally responsible borrowing.

If however you take out debt where the total repayments exceed $500/week this is where the problem starts - This is not Fiscally responsible borrowing - yet this is what so many people and governments do - they borrow more than they have the capacity to repay - is this the fault of Money or the Financial system? No, it is the fault of PEOPLE borrowing and trying to live beyond their means - but again - its easier to blame those big nasty corporations that get rich from other peoples stupidity.

if everyone - people and governments alike started being responsible with money - the problems you are describing will go away.

oldrider

23rd January 2014, 08:13

The Media will be the catalyst for the outcome of the next election and they have begun their quest ... all this KB prattle is waste of time and energy! :corn:

_Shrek_

23rd January 2014, 08:23

youve dodged 3 of my posts but im expected to answer?

I can speak only for myself. I want the disestablishment of central government. I want whatever remains to aknowledge my previously stated rights.
I want legislation abolished, perhaps replaced with common sense common english T&Cs, either charter or constitution (ie formed by the informed consent of the people) at a 'council' level.
i want lawyers, judges and the old boys clubs put to the fire.
But righ nau, I want to smoke drugs, ride bikes and play with guns. So im going to go do that illegal shit.

:scratch: the only rights you have left are to pay tax & die

the rest is... do it but don't get caught :whistle:

_Shrek_

23rd January 2014, 08:26

The Media will be the catalyst for the outcome of the next election and they have begun their quest ... all this KB prattle is waste of time and energy! :corn:

so what's going to be the next ruling dictator ship? blue, red, green, dickcom or brown ;)

mashman

23rd January 2014, 08:34

TheDemonLord... I don't think Akzle is questioning fiscal responsibility, more highlighting that fiscal responsibility is all but impossible given how money is created.

Using your example:

The maths is simple really - if you earn $1,000/week, and you need $500/week to live, you can borrow any amount of Money so long as as the repayments do not exceed $500/week and the term of the loan does not exceed your natural life span.

Yes, on a personal level your maths stacks up. However you need to take into account where that money has come from. The $1000 has come from somewhere in order for you to be paid. Therefore the $1000 has had to be created in the form of a loan. That loan will have been issued with interest. Let's say that interest is 1%. So when that $1000 was created, the issuer expects to receive $1010 in return. Where do you find that extra $10? It has to be created. So you create that $10, but that $10 is actually $10.10 as the money has been created with the associated debt i.e. interest... boiling down to the irrefutable mathematical conclusion that there will never be enough money to repay that debt. The issuer would have to write off the $10 in order for there to be enough money in the world to repay the loan. Without question, someone has to be left with the debt that was created... and it sure as hell ain't the banks.

Therefore, it is all but impossible to be fiscally responsible when you are left with that debt. It's a case of don't get caught with the hot potato... hot potato, hot potato, hot potato... mashed banana do be do be do be do be do.

mashman

23rd January 2014, 08:35

The Media will be the catalyst for the outcome of the next election and they have begun their quest ... all this KB prattle is waste of time and energy! :corn:

Since when has sewing seeds been a waste of time and energy ;)?

Akzle

23rd January 2014, 08:42

1: What is the Alternative then - user pays for every service? because that works so well where it is implemented

4: you earn $2, pay the $1.50, save the $0.5 - I am going to ignore the anti-semetic ranting - it has no place in a civilised debate.

this is clearly over your head. Jews invented usury.

Im not talking about your little loan scenario. Im talking about the persons who print money (jews) and them who use it. Ive said it twice now. That money is lent to nations/governments AS DEBT, and THE INTEREST OF THAT LOAN IS NEVER PRINTED.
Capiche?

The PROMISARRY NOTES and LEGAL TENDER in circulation are just that. A PROMISE to pay.... When?
When there is something of value (money, in its original definition, as opposed to the currency you associate it with)

Akzle

23rd January 2014, 08:53

:scratch: the only rights you have left are to pay tax & die

the rest is... do it but don't get caught :whistle:

tax? I dont pay that shit. Except gst, slightly unavoidable, but im working on it.

Laava

23rd January 2014, 09:01

Ha, what a moron quote :bleh:
Did you parents used to tell you to eat your dinner and think of the starving kids in Africa. Never mind the fact of logistics of getting your dinner there

I was trying to keep it simple so you,ld understand:lol:

But yes, I did spend a bit of time in that neck of the woods as in an earlier post. I am well aware of how warlords keep a choke hold on the entire country. And I agree with the rest of your post.

TheDemonLord

23rd January 2014, 09:12

1. I grant you that it has been the norm, but communism had central governance and you decided that that didn't work. So central governance isn't the issue. What you seem to be alluding to is, without the threat of violence, people will do what they want and the world will descend into chaos. Theorising that that would be the case without understanding how such a system would function isn't exactly what I would call a valid critique is it?

2. Agreed, we do need to keep an eye on them... but given that people work during the day, have a family to look after for the rest of the time whilst they're awake. How will that happen? I would venture that it won't.

3. No offence taken... Why is it deluded? real reasons, not, oh it's pipe dreams, it's fairy tales, it's communism, it's stupid etc... they are not reasons and I would venture that you have ignored the salient point that people have not been educated in regards to a NOW let alone been asked whether they would live in it. As I said earlier I posted a poll on here and the result is approx 50 - 50. So 50% don't think it's deluded. They must be space cadet dummies, right?

Communism never existed. As what you seem to be referring to as communism still used a financial system. So NOW and what you call communism is apples and oranges.

Everyone got the better deal, because grass got cut and houses go built. 2 jobs that needed done and if the builder decides to cut grass as his "contribution", then who's going to build houses? Do builders only ever become builders to make money? I'm guessing not all of them started off that way, but actually wanted to build houses.

Resource scarcity will become a problem. If money is involved resources will go to those who can afford it, not necessarily those who need it. That's what you seem to be advocating.

The value will be in what the resources are used for, not what they are worth. Where is the value in resources used for producing Barbie Dolls? The world can do without Barbie Dolls, but they make money, so people will waste the resources. You're happy to accept that given that resource scarcity is on the horizon?

People aren't the problem, yes they can be cunts, but the environment under which they function encourages that behaviour. As mentioned earlier, there are billions of people who are "good", the vast majority most likely... so take theft as a for instance. Under a financial system, people can fuck people over big time by taking their money. Under NOW, that can't happen. Also, why would anyone take something from someone else if the thing that they want is free at the shops? You have changed the way people behave by changing the environment under which they function.

If it was human nature and hard wired into our genetic code, we'd be fighting like the animals and we'd all be gredy and seeking power. The vast majority of us don't, we cooperate. Perhaps those "alpha's" need to evolve coz the rest of us have moved on from beating our chests and waging war on comparitively defenseless countries. If you had have left them in a hippy household, they would have probably turned out to be pacifists. It's learned behaviour, not human nature.

So how do you explain the recent reports that state that the middle class is shrinking? It has nothing to do with mortality and has everything to do with the GFC. Of course it's rote. If it wasn't, then you couldn't learn how to answer the questions and up your IQ. You can. Go ask a 5 year old to sit an IQ test. But yeah, another topic.

1: Okay a challenge then - All you need to do to prove me wrong is point to one system that evolved across different physical, cultural, linguistical or ideological divides that is 100% compatable with all the other systems without any Central governance or body that agreed on or dictated Standards.

If you can provide an example and upon scrutiny it fulfills the criteria above - I will conceed.

2: We agree on this point but from different view points - I agree it would be nice if everyone just did their job without needing someone to oversee it - but that isn't reality is it?

3: okay this is going to take me a while because there are many factors to consider - to be highlight this, let me use an example:

In your ideal system - everyone works and contributes to society and in return is provided with the things they need - FYI - this is what they tried in Soviet Russia and failed, I don't deny that it isn't a nice idea, but it falls flat on its face in reality.

Person A is a Doctor - they have sacrificed 6 years of their life training to be a Doctor, they work in a high stress job where they have to deal with Death, Grieving and upset Family, they have to make quick decisions that often have life or death consequences. They are also required on a regular basis to work late or extended hours due to the nature of their work, they have to be oncall which often pulls them away from spending time with their family.

Person B Cuts the grass on the berms - they have no training past how to start a lawn mower, they don't need to make any real decisions, they don't have to deal with anyone, occassionally they have to work in the rain, but they also get to finish on time and spend time with their family.

Let me first ask this:

Who contributes more to society? and the follow up - assume that you say that both contribute equally to society, well let us test this - what are the consequences of each person not doing their job for a day? well in Person B's case - the grass grows maybe 1-2 CM longer but what about Person A - well someone could Die, or at the best suffer due to not getting the care they require.

So we can agree that the Consequences of their jobs not being done are vastly different thus their contributions cannot be equal.

Now Person A looks at Person B and says:

Why am I working a 60 hour week, having to deal with Stress related problems if I get the same as if I just went and cut the Grass for a 40 hour week?

Then Person A stops being a Doctor (cause there is no benefit or reward for the Extra work that is required as part of the Job) and Goes and Cuts the Grass. This is what caused the Soviet empire collapse - The lack of Incentive to work harder/smarter/longer/better than the next person.

And that is the reson why Ideas like NOW (which is really just Sociailism 2.0 - same idea that failed miserably when done in the real world, only with a new coat of paint and new technology) will fail and why it hasn't been implemented by anyone.

to answer your question do all builders become builders because of Money - No. There are a small percentage who would be Builders because it is what they Love to do and would do it regardless of the reward but all the other builders - sure I don't doubt they like their job, but would they do it if they got paid the same as what someone on the Dole gets? I doubt it.

Now onto Resource Scarcity - there are a finite number of Trees for example, and we could dish out Resources to where they are needed - until the supply ran out - then what? if there are 2 competing projects that need wood - how do you decide between them? of course you could arbitrarily assign resources, however the best way to assign resource is assigning a value to the project - what is the most convieniant way to assign Value? in Monetary terms.

Should the Dollar value of something be the only Metric we use to determine Value? now that is a different question entirely - and I agree, it shouldn't be the sole metric we look at but it is the easiest metric to measure and evaluate. if there was an objective way to measure say quality of life, then that would also be useful - but there isn't.

So yes - I am advocating that resources go to those who can afford it - does that make me a selfish asshole while half the world population is dieing in squalor - maybe, but would they do any different if the roles were reversed? I doubt it.

People are the problem, People are imperfect, thus anything created by People will be inherently flawed - Same is true of the current Financial system or the proposed NOW system.

Now in order for you to claim it wasn't base human nature - you would have to provide me with a group of People that have not exhibited their traits - they are far too universal to be learned behaviour. "we'd be fighting like the animals and we'd all be gredy and seeking power." You say this like we aren't? Syria, Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan - and these are just the ones we are involved in and know about - not to mention all the in-fighting that gets done at the local, family, individual level. Certainly it might not be as overt as 200 years ago where we are going into lesser countries and colonising them (and do you really think that in 200 years we have managed to un-learn millions of years of genetic behaviour?) but we are still going about it, except much more subtely.

As for your comment about Pacificists - funnily enough, they never seem to be able to breed enough of them to make a difference - probably because they Die out because they refuse to fight for what is theirs (Darwin strikes again!)

I have not read reports on the Middle Class shrink - Source?

and finally - 5 Year olds can and Do sit IQ tests and can score very highly - you must disasociate knowledge with Intelligence:

What is the Capital of NZ?
Auckland! :rofl:

This is an Example of Knowledge - there is no way to work this out except throwing knowing the Answer

but what about this:

1,1,2,3,5,8,13, What comes next?

Now you could know that it is the Fibonacci sequence and so the next number is 21, but you could work out that the Sequence conforms to N=(N-1) + (N-2) - this doesn't require knowledge, it just requires Logic, same with pattern recognition and higher reasoning/Deductive Reasoning.

You might wish to read more on this subject:

http://childparenting.about.com/od/schoollearning/a/what-is-an-iq.htm

Banditbandit

23rd January 2014, 09:18

fight against __________________

(hint: those who infringe against your rights)

How can you fight for something that doesn't exist - or how does someone infringe something that doesn';t exist?

if it comes down to who fights the best... Ninjas will win which would be pretty badass, really.

Don't want to sound pedantic BUT - the ninjas were the descendents of the people of Iga and Toga province in Japan - who fought against the Shogun and his dictatorial Samurai system - and they LOST .. and were given a choice - become the Shogun's spies or DIE ... well, guess which one they chose ..

But anyway - they LOST .. so not that great really. They were masters of propaganda tho' - and so they legends they created about themselves survive up to today ...

Banditbandit

23rd January 2014, 09:22

Banditbandit

23rd January 2014, 09:28

Person A is a Doctor - they have sacrificed 6 years of their life training to be a Doctor, they work in a high stress job where they have to deal with Death, Grieving and upset Family, they have to make quick decisions that often have life or death consequences. They are also required on a regular basis to work late or extended hours due to the nature of their work, they have to be oncall which often pulls them away from spending time with their family.

Person B Cuts the grass on the berms - they have no training past how to start a lawn mower, they don't need to make any real decisions, they don't have to deal with anyone, occassionally they have to work in the rain, but they also get to finish on time and spend time with their family.

Let me first ask this:

Who contributes more to society? and the follow up - assume that you say that both contribute equally to society, well let us test this - what are the consequences of each person not doing their job for a day? well in Person B's case - the grass grows maybe 1-2 CM longer but what about Person A - well someone could Die, or at the best suffer due to not getting the care they require.

So we can agree that the Consequences of their jobs not being done are vastly different thus their contributions cannot be equal.

Why do you want to place "contribution to society" as the grounds for your political philosophy? That's just buying into the neo-liberal philosophies .. and opens the door for the question "who defines it? I would suggest that medicine is a black art and that the grass cutter contributes more by improving the visual culture of the area, contributing to the visual and mental well-being of hundreds .. whereas the doctor only adds to the fear and self-doubt of a few - his patients ...

This is most obvious when you come to the examples of people who want social change - how do they "contribute to society' - they want to change it, not contribute ...

But why go down that path in the first place? Human well being is only dependent on "contributing to society" if we accept the propaganda that says it is so ..

TheDemonLord

23rd January 2014, 09:32

Yes, on a personal level your maths stacks up. However you need to take into account where that money has come from. The $1000 has come from somewhere in order for you to be paid. Therefore the $1000 has had to be created in the form of a loan. That loan will have been issued with interest. Let's say that interest is 1%. So when that $1000 was created, the issuer expects to receive $1010 in return. Where do you find that extra $10? It has to be created. So you create that $10, but that $10 is actually $10.10 as the money has been created with the associated debt i.e. interest... boiling down to the irrefutable mathematical conclusion that there will never be enough money to repay that debt. The issuer would have to write off the $10 in order for there to be enough money in the world to repay the loan. Without question, someone has to be left with the debt that was created... and it sure as hell ain't the banks.

Therefore, it is all but impossible to be fiscally responsible when you are left with that debt. It's a case of don't get caught with the hot potato... hot potato, hot potato, hot potato... mashed banana do be do be do be do be do.

The $1000 comes from the gold Reserves held by Governments/Banks.

Whilst your example may seem logical - it is missing a key step:

I go out into the Forrest, and cut Down a tree (a really big tree) and I say the value of my Tree is $1,000, I could Barter the Tree for services I want, but barter is a rather ineffecient system with several inherant problems which Money Solved (sort of)

Someone else goes into a Mine and digs up $1,000 worth of Minerals - this is where the Generation of Money comes from - the Money we use is actually just a place holder for Gold Reserves (cause carrying around Gold is problematic)

There - you Maths problem has been solved by Primary Industries and the Generation of Wealth. from there Goods are produced from the Raw resources (secondary Industries) and then Services are provided using those Goods (tertiary Industries)

To answer your inevitable question 'What happens when there is no more of Resource X on earth' - look up to the Solar System, then out to our Galaxy and then on to our Universe and whilst Human Greed is infinite - it will take longer than my lifetime to consume all the resource in the Universe and besides.

Banditbandit

23rd January 2014, 09:40

but what about this:

1,1,2,3,5,8,13, What comes next?

Satan???

Now you could know that it is the Fibonacci sequence and so the next number is 21, but you could work out that the Sequence conforms to N=(N-1) + (N-2) - this doesn't require knowledge, it just requires Logic, same with pattern recognition and higher reasoning/Deductive Reasoning.

What kind of logic does it require? Pattern recognition is not the same thing ... and deductive reasoning is only setting up a syllogism - or, more clearly - an argument where the conclusion does not contradict the asserted premises .. what are the asserted premises? A human-created, and therefore theoretical, numbering system. Therefore it only requires pattern recognition skills coupled with an understanding of (probably training and indoctrination in) the human created numbering system. Ask the thirteenth tree from the left what comes next ...

Logic is part of the propaganda system ... there are other ways of organising and experience the world ...

TheDemonLord

23rd January 2014, 09:41

Why do you want to place "contribution to society" as the grounds for your political philosophy? That's just buying into the neo-liberal philosophies .. and opens the door for the question "who defines it? I would suggest that medicine is a black art and that the grass cutter contributes more by improving the visual culture of the area, contributing to the visual and mental well-being of hundreds .. whereas the doctor only adds to the fear and self-doubt of a few - his patients ...

This is most obvious when you come to the examples of people who want social change - how do they "contribute to society' - they want to change it, not contribute ...

But why go down that path in the first place? Human well being is only dependent on "contributing to society" if we accept the propaganda that says it is so ..

Cool - tell you what, lets take away all that evil Black Magic Medicine - I will place you next to someone with say:

Bubonic Plague
Polio
Whooping Cough
Tuberculosis

Or any of the myriad of highly virulent pathogens to which Modern Medicine has been able to cure/wipeout/prevent through immunisation

Then - when you are dieing in Agony, I will (in my biohazard suit) take you outside and say:

"but look at the nicely cut Grass, doesn't it contribute to your visual and Mental Well being? See, you don't need those evil Doctors, just look at the Grass"