Christmas Carnage

[gotopaz50]

Oh my god! Could there have been a worse holiday period for bikers? :( (Yes, I know there has been!)

I cannot believe that we have had so many accidents this Christmas period.
The worst part are the single vehicle incidents and the ones of our own making! :Oops:

We are trying to convince the government and ACC that this is a safe hobby!

I used to fly small aircraft and the results of air accidents get published so others can learn from mistakes.
I would like to see NZTA start doing the same thing. They can make the names anonymous, but lets really find out what the cause of these accidents are and put it to the riders to fix it.

The police can put as much effort into prevention, but at the end of the day, they don't have their hands on the throttle! :brick:

There is also a focus on educating the riders. I did a Prorider "Ride for Ever (http://www.rideforever.co.nz/training/)" course last October. These are fantastic and cater for everyone from every skill level. I would highly recommend them.

What about the tin can pilots?
They need to be taught that it takes more than a glance to judge speed and distance, especially looking out for the two wheeled fraternity. They need to understand that the 2000Kg weapon they have in their hands can a lot of damage. I think the bar should be raised further.

There are still a whole lot of 'drivers' (and I use the term loosely) out there that shouldn't be driving. I heard via a third party that "it takes too much paper work to process drivers breaking their license conditions". This was from a police officer! Haven't they been provided with the latest electronic equipment to lookup a license and print off a ticket?
We have unlicensed drivers out there either on illegal licenses, invalid licenses or none at all. It's pretty hard to maintain a high skill level when this happens. How many times do we hear that a crash was caused or involved a driver who was not supposed to be driving?

The quality of driving in the country is the worst I have ever come across, and I am a kiwi!

The NZ Herald published a story today on Red light offenders in Auckland, after that nasty bicycle accident.
It has gotten so bad in Auckland that if you are on your bike at the front of the queue, you risk a tail end shunt if you stop for the red. This is disgusting! I have already had my butt clenching moments with the squeal of tyres from behind. This eventually turned into a real shunt at a Stop sign.
I think the meaning of the Stop signs in Auckland are "Stop if you have to"!

To close and repeat a phrase that I heard long ago";
"There's Old Riders out there and Bold Riders out there, but there are no Old, Bold Riders"

Thanks.

[SMOKEU]

Until there is a significant improvement in driver training and enforcement for truly dangerous activities (not including speeding on a quiet road), then expect nothing to change.

[wingnutt]

Well, I agree, It doesn’t say much for the 104kph restriction does it either but then, it never was going to. Everyone seems to know about this except corporate cops. Funny that.

From a complete strict numbers game, which is what corporate cops and politicians work on, someone hasn’t done their bean counting properly, if you reduce death on the roads (cheaper) it will be replaced by serious injury (expensive) as accidents will continue to happen.

I’m afraid all the problems on the road can be put under one word really, and that is ATTITUDE. From the boy racer who decides to show his mates he/she is such wonderful driver, to the granny who holds up 50 cars on the open road, its all about attitude.

Speed does not cause accidents, it along with 100’s of other factors, merely dictates, how bad the accident is going to be, and that determines the type of injury.

Accidents start way before they happen, where they happen, is the direct result, of behavior/attitude before the accident, and this is what corporate cops should be targeting. ITS ABOUT ATTITUDE YOU WANKERS , GET OFF YOU FAT ARSES AND START LOOKING AT ATTITUDE, Oh right, there is no money in it sorry I spoke.,

Speaking of attitude, has anybody figured out why cagers speed up when they see a rider coming up behind, its happening so regular now, I get surprised when they don’t I just can’t figure out why they do it.

[BigAl]

There were a few multi vehicle incidents too, car vs bike.

Of course biker came out worst, latest being what sounded like a ute turning in front of bike in the weekend.

[Waihou Thumper]

Oh my god! Could there have been a worse holiday period for bikers? :( (Yes, I know there has been!)

I cannot believe that we have had so many accidents this Christmas period.
The worst part are the single vehicle incidents and the ones of our own making! :Oops:

We are trying to convince the government and ACC that this is a safe hobby!

I used to fly small aircraft and the results of air accidents get published so others can learn from mistakes.
I would like to see NZTA start doing the same thing. They can make the names anonymous, but lets really find out what the cause of these accidents are and put it to the riders to fix it.

The police can put as much effort into prevention, but at the end of the day, they don't have their hands on the throttle! :brick:

There is also a focus on educating the riders. I did a Prorider "Ride for Ever (http://www.rideforever.co.nz/training/)" course last October. These are fantastic and cater for everyone from every skill level. I would highly recommend them.

What about the tin can pilots?
They need to be taught that it takes more than a glance to judge speed and distance, especially looking out for the two wheeled fraternity. They need to understand that the 2000Kg weapon they have in their hands can a lot of damage. I think the bar should be raised further.

There are still a whole lot of 'drivers' (and I use the term loosely) out there that shouldn't be driving. I heard via a third party that "it takes too much paper work to process drivers breaking their license conditions". This was from a police officer! Haven't they been provided with the latest electronic equipment to lookup a license and print off a ticket?
We have unlicensed drivers out there either on illegal licenses, invalid licenses or none at all. It's pretty hard to maintain a high skill level when this happens. How many times do we hear that a crash was caused or involved a driver who was not supposed to be driving?

The quality of driving in the country is the worst I have ever come across, and I am a kiwi!

The NZ Herald published a story today on Red light offenders in Auckland, after that nasty bicycle accident.
It has gotten so bad in Auckland that if you are on your bike at the front of the queue, you risk a tail end shunt if you stop for the red. This is disgusting! I have already had my butt clenching moments with the squeal of tyres from behind. This eventually turned into a real shunt at a Stop sign.
I think the meaning of the Stop signs in Auckland are "Stop if you have to"!

To close and repeat a phrase that I heard long ago";
"There's Old Riders out there and Bold Riders out there, but there are no Old, Bold Riders"

Thanks.

Nice first post....I agree with most of this and Yes, we as a country have poor driving skills and attitudes. The culture, complacency in both camps....
Do you get dressed to ride thinking that I will be hit and do the best you can to prevent it? it'sa Bugger really.....

[SPman]

I used to fly small aircraft and the results of air accidents get published so others can learn from mistakes.
I would like to see NZTA start doing the same thing. They can make the names anonymous, but lets really find out what the cause of these accidents are and put it to the riders to fix it.

Stop talking sense - even in aviation, there was an attempt to impose the police "prosecute somebody - anybody" mentality over the Palmerston North air crash some years ago!

Anyway - very few will learn from the results - those that would, probably already have - the rest are better than perfect and don't need to know any of that, because nothing will happen to them / it's someone else's fault....etc...etc.

Yep - attitude - and that's always going to be harder to police and have less monetary returns, so they'll just keep banging the same drum - beat everyone over the head with bigger and bigger sticks, set totally unrealistic targets and carry on - business as usual. Meanwhile, small pockets of individual police will try and do their bit, while the bulk will do as instructed by their increasingly political and sociopathic superiors.........and public perception of the police will slide further into the gutter......

[quickbuck]

Agree, nice first post. And agree with it all.
Going by the course that the OP did, I would say he forgot to mention ATTITUDE in his post as a point because it is drummed in so hard that it is the overriding thing in all that we do.

I reckon publishing the Accidents somewhere so we can all learn from them is a great thing....
We get the Safety Mags at work too, and I read through some of the things that happen in Aviation and point it out to the guys.
This way we can all learn and try and not make the same mistake. For those that don't know they publish both operator error and maintenance error, Fatal and non-fatal. Aircraft damage is catagorised and anything from major to write off is published..... Yes, yes if we did that for bikes, then it will be an enormous book! That says something right there...

As SPman says, few will actually learn from just reading what is written down in front of them.
One has to be trained into that way of thinking first....
So, the instructors of Ride Forever courses can pass it on I guess...
Which still leads to the issue of the 90% who are too good for courses not going along to do them, or hear the good gen.

SO, Gotopaz50, would you like to share your little off?
PM me if you like (When you get more than 5 posts under your belt I think it is).

[Tazz]

Shit happens, people make mistakes or are victims of circumstance, life goes on (or not, but it ends one day anyway).

Releasing the details of those lone rider accidents would be good though, but I doubt many would bother reading them.

As to the people who cause problems for others, well, not only are they breeding faster than they're dying, but they really don't care no matter what 'rules' or statistical jargon you throw at them, so it's a bit of a tricky fight :p

[Milts]

I used to fly small aircraft and the results of air accidents get published so others can learn from mistakes.
I would like to see NZTA start doing the same thing. They can make the names anonymous, but lets really find out what the cause of these accidents are and put it to the riders to fix it.

You know what? If you make an OIA request, I'm pretty sure they legally have to provide you with exactly those details. But they have little enough money as it is to rewrite and republish it unless a formal request is made.

[Ripperjon]

I totally agree with accident details being collected and published for us to learn from.
I am a skydiver and BASE jumper and both sports have accident lists compiled and published in the form of forum threads, which are excellent learning tools.
They usually start with 'i heard this happened' type posts, but often the actual victims or witnesses chime in with first-hand details.
In the absence of anything official, why don't we ask a Moderator to make a sub-forum in the 'survival skills' section where we can share what we know.
I don't think a thread would cut it as it'd get messy quickly, but a sub-forum with a thread per event would probably work well.
What do you guys/gals think?

[pritch]

I totally agree with accident details being collected and published for us to learn from.


So where are we going to find someone qualified to make an objective assessment of the details?

Usually all we get is some po-faced dimwit intoning, "It is believed that speed and alcohol may have been factors."

If you want a statement of the blindingly obvious, whether it's right or not, we've got just the people. If you want an intelligent appraisal by someone who is qualified and knows that of which they speak, that may be more difficult.

[Tink]

Take away the gun, and the bullets, and they will have nothing!

Fed up with bad driving, riding, and cycling!!!!!!

I drive minimal in comparison to others, but it takes me 25 min to get home, and at least once in every trip I suffer at least minimum #1 Tail gater #1 speeder / overtaker... and a majority sadly are woman tail gators, young male & female & 40 something speeders. Yesterday we had a local fatality, I know and ride/drive the stretch of road often, its a simple piece of road, that driven/ridden safely would/should be accident free. We need better technology in vehicles to stop people from texting / making calls, drinking and driving in vehicles of any sort... the only accident that can be called an accident is one that is beyond the drivers control, the REST ARE PURELY MANSLAUGHTERS WAITING TO HAPPEN... :(

[RDJ]

Well - the emphasis on the zero-tolerance 104 speed limit pretty much guaranteed that people behind the wheel (and maybe behind the handlebars) would focus their attention on the speedo face and not the road / traffic. What's that from the cheap seats? That's not what the police intended? Oh dear. We've never heard of the Law of Unintended Consequences have we?

When the road toll goes down the police rules made that happen.

When the road toll goes up it's all the public's fault and the Axis of Enforcement had nothing to do with it.

Yeah, right.

[Gremlin]

In the absence of anything official, why don't we ask a Moderator to make a sub-forum in the 'survival skills' section where we can share what we know.
I don't think a thread would cut it as it'd get messy quickly, but a sub-forum with a thread per event would probably work well.
What do you guys/gals think?
Part of forum rules is that there is no speculation on serious incidents and no mention of names until publicly notified. Further, most situations will involve further legal proceedings, and unlikely for anything to be mentioned while it's before the courts.

[R650R]

Those air accident reports make interesting reading, read a whole stack at library once for a high school project/assignment of some kind.

Couple of years ago one of the truck magazines printed some police serious truck crash reports, level of detail was interesting.
Didn't last long as talking about crashes in that industry is a sacred cow and probably too many complained about it instead of trying to learn.
But I suspect with bikes you read pages and pages and find the same thing, its that nut behind the steering wheel or triple clamp that causes most stuff.
As riders/drivers we like to think the roads are factor but the police methods for measuring them usually reports the surface as adequate despite what we as road users experience.

[Akzle]

pretty monumental first post there buddy....

still dont give a fuck. i dont see it as my job to change things or enforce my beliefs against morons who may or may not appreciate it.
ride safe, fuck the rest.everyone dies sometime

[caspernz]

Yep, pretty heavy duty first post there OP...but you'll work out soon enough that the person who has the most impact on your on-road behaviour/attitude and thus survival skills on the road...is the one you see in the mirror everyday.

All for bitching about what should and could be done by TPTB, and yep I'll vote for improved licensing standards and all that, but until the standards are improved across the board I can gain most by training and riding defensively. For me that even includes leaving the bike in the garage for the couple of weeks either side of New Years, since the numpty driver/rider count is so high over that period.

[rastuscat]

So where are we going to find someone qualified to make an objective assessment of the details?

Usually all we get is some po-faced dimwit intoning, "It is believed that speed and alcohol may have been factors."

If you want a statement of the blindingly obvious, whether it's right or not, we've got just the people. If you want an intelligent appraisal by someone who is qualified and knows that of which they speak, that may be more difficult.

What we need is a no blame investigation system. One where everyone involved tells the truth, with no fear of being prosecuted.

The present system is very focussed on blaming someone, and leads to people telling untruths to support their own point of view, in order to avoid being blamed.

It's not going to happen, but it's nice idea.

[pritch]

Those air accident reports make interesting reading, read a whole stack at library once for a high school project/assignment of some kind.



I believe pilots have a saying to the effect, "You may survive the crash, but you won't survive the accident report."

The implied cynicism would seem to indicate that not all pilots hold the writers of accident reports in the same high regard you seem to?

Just saying.

[cheshirecat]

Believe the UK NHS instigated a no blame report which worked to some extent. Detailed no blame accident reports would make interesting reading and maybe putting a road marker (and Google marked) on every M/B accident on the Rimutuka's

[gotopaz50]

I drive minimal in comparison to others, but it takes me 25 min to get home, and at least once in every trip I suffer at least minimum #1 Tail gater #1 speeder / overtaker... and a majority sadly are woman tail gators, young male & female & 40 something speeders.

Totally agree with you here too. Most of the vehicles that I avoid stopping at the orange light for are young female drivers; in fact the one who shunted me was a young woman who had not had her license for long and couldnt seem to grasp that you actually have to stop at the Stop sign!

I stopped at some RED lights on a motorway entrance in Auckland and had the guy behind me pass on the left ( I was already in the left lane!) through the red.

You just have to shake your head! :rolleyes:

I read in a blog online that these people will get what they deserve if they continue driving like that. Small comfort, but worth taking on board.

[Akzle]

I stopped at some RED lights on a motorway entrance in Auckland


those things fuck me right off and i completely ignore them.

[RDJ]

those things fuck me right off and i completely ignore them.

The KB collective is unsurprised.

[FJRider]

What we need is a no blame investigation system. One where everyone involved tells the truth, with no fear of being prosecuted.

The present system is very focussed on blaming someone, and leads to people telling untruths to support their own point of view, in order to avoid being blamed.

It's not going to happen, but it's nice idea.

Nice idea ... BUT ... The ... "It's not my fault" (Can't be surely) mentality is alive and well in Godzone ...

The more at fault you are ... the harder you try to point (give) the finger to everybody else ...

[danchop]

those things fuck me right off and i completely ignore them.
the police dont enforce those ramp lights,i asked a cop,he didnt explain why though

[ellipsis]

...Roger Whittaker, who sometimes whistled with his mouth open, had a big hit alluding to, 'If", being the biggest word...

[FJRider]

the police dont enforce those ramp lights,i asked a cop,he didnt explain why though

The Quota is not applicable ....

[Akzle]

the police dont enforce those ramp lights,i asked a cop,he didnt explain why though

i ignore half of what cops try and enforce too.

[Ocean1]

I'll vote for improved licensing standards.

As would most of us.

Right up until we fail the test.

Then the bastards are restricting your freedom.

[Ocean1]

I read in a blog online that these people will get what they deserve if they continue driving like that.

A thorough and prolonged rogering with a large pineapple?

[scumdog]

As would most of us.

Right up until we fail the test.

Then the bastards are restricting your freedom.

Now ain't THAT the truth..:yes::yes:.bloody humans...:rolleyes:

[FJRider]

i ignore half of what cops try and enforce too.

Handcuffs and long batons ARE hard to ignore ... <_<

[caspernz]

As would most of us.

Right up until we fail the test.

Then the bastards are restricting your freedom.

Ouch! That's quite a cynical point of view innit?

Maybe I can be smug in the sense that I basically resit my licence annually as part of in-house refresher training...the joys of trucking I suppose.

The restriction of freedom might come about from overly enthusiastic use of the throttle on two wheels, in the wrong place and time :eek5:

Heck, show me a politician with the intestinal fortitude to foist regular license recertification upon a voting public...:laugh:

[Ocean1]

Ouch! That's quite a cynical point of view innit?

Call it a tangential reference to the fact that every one of us thinks we're better than average.

And nice as it feels to unload on the great unwashed about percieved transgressions it don't ammount to sound policy advice.

[pritch]

...Roger Whittaker, who sometimes whistled with his mouth open, had a big hit alluding to, 'If", being the biggest word...

He was only ripping off Rudyard Kipling. :devil2:

[RDJ]

Handcuffs and long batons ARE hard to ignore ... <_<

And three police people with bulletproof vests, sunglasses, folded arms, guns on hip, are always going to be able to physically enforce - and to mutually alibi their desire to enforce - their authority. The only defense these days is to wear and always run a citizen cam.

I'd assume the reason the sunglassed woman in the video was babbling on about needing a copy of the video for her safety (her words) is because she wanted to confiscate / wipe the citizen's video record of her and her colleagues interrogating a citizen without any probable cause.

The issues of being detained without reasonable cause and being told to "explain ourselves" to the bully-boys and -girls is only half of the problem. The other half is the resource allocation. When police will not attend burglaries and will not interview physically injured assault victims (in a recent case I am directly aware of through work, the officer did a phone interview only of the hospitalized victim…) the average taxpaying motorcyclist is well aware that the specific representatives of law and order who pull us over under this type of legislation are neither protecting nor serving the public. What they think they are achieving is, shall we just say, obscure.

[Scuba_Steve]

those things fuck me right off and i completely ignore them.

Those things shouldn't ever exist. The fact someone who obviously knows nothing about roading put them in just shows what a sad state NZ roads/driving is in