Starting out & have lots of questions

[Nobbsie]

Hello everyone.
I have decided i want to learn to race buckets/build a bucket racer. Im not concerned at this point about being the best, fastest, or anywhere near the front. I want to learn to ride on a track, keep down low, fundamentals, and about frames and two stroke engines. I have a tf125 i got for nothing in very good order. Is there anywhere i can find the regulations on whats ok and not ok in terms of building? any advise or help would be much appreciated.
Thanks all
Nobbsie

[Akzle]

go to the track.

contrary to you may be led to believe around here. not all motorcyclists are f*cking a55holes.

[Nobbsie]

Hahahaha yea. Anyone know when the next day up at Kaitoke is on?

[koba]

Hahahaha yea. Anyone know when the next day up at Kaitoke is on?

Its normally the 3rd Sunday of the month but not this time, we are having this next one on Saturday.

Details on events can be found here (We run with the KArts).
http://www.kartsportwellington.co.nz/

Full Rules can be found here:
http://www.mnz.co.nz/regulations/rules

You need to read chapter 10, chapter 24 and Appendix D in relation to machine spec, reading the rest is a good idea too.

The main thing you need to know is, no competition engine part,s max 24mm carb and no watercooling for over 100cc 2 strokes.

Rock up to the track and have a look, you'll soon start to get an idea of what others are doing etc...

[Nobbsie]

Sweet thanks so much i will head up on Saturday. :cool:

[F5 Dave]

Actually the main thing you need to know is for kart tracks we need to run protection for the track to avoid gouges. Fortunately there is a sticky thread above this with a decent enough guide to get you covered. Oh yeah & noise is an issue so you need a decent muffler, not some cobbled together bean can.

But apart from that there are heaps of people who will help answer questions etc. Welcome.

[Nobbsie]

Sweet as thanks man

OHH and if anyone has an old tatty TF125 manual lying around who wants to sell it, i am looking for one.
Chris

[koba]

[QUOTE=F5 Dave;1130669700]Actually the main thing you need to know is for kart tracks we need to run protection for the track to avoid gouges. [QUOTE]

Ahh, yes!
Priority one!

[F5 Dave]

Sweet thanks so much i will head up on Saturday. :cool:
Saturday the 15th he means to be crystal

[Nobbsie]

Thanks for the clarification hahaha would have been the only one out there this weekend hahaha

Also looking for all and any tf125 engines

Cheers Chris

[F5 Dave]

Before you buy more stuff my solemn advice is to allocate some money for a crank rebuild. I've always found an old 2 stroke that has been sitting for a while & then pulled out and asked to perform racing revs dies shortly after. the rod gets a bit of corrosion & that wears off the plating & its all over. rebuild it properly & you should be able to forget about it after that. 2nd hand cranks are false ecconomy if you don't give them some love.

A new rodkit won't be expensive. You might ask Rick52 what he runs in his. From there you can determine what revs are safe to run & all engine tuning is based on that.

The TF will std produce power at say 7000rpm. Waay too low to make competitive power. That can all be changed.

If you haven't read it already find a copy of Graham Bells performance tuning 2 stroke engine book & read it every night. It is old & out of date, but the very best place to start off (after reading the rules).

[Bert]

Before you buy more stuff my solemn advice is to allocate some money for a crank rebuild. I've always found an old 2 stroke that has been sitting for a while & then pulled out and asked to perform racing revs dies shortly after. the rod gets a bit of corrosion & that wears off the plating & its all over. rebuild it properly & you should be able to forget about it after that. 2nd hand cranks are false ecconomy if you don't give them some love.

A new rodkit won't be expensive. You might ask Rick52 what he runs in his. From there you can determine what revs are safe to run & all engine tuning is based on that.

The TF will std produce power at say 7000rpm. Waay too low to make competitive power. That can all be changed.

If you haven't read it already find a copy of Graham Bells performance tuning 2 stroke engine book & read it every night. It is old & out of date, but the very best place to start off (after reading the rules).

Soo true. 2nd hand cranks will only end in tears.
Plenty of replacement options and also plenty of piston options to improve performance.

Here is a link to Bells book.
http://iheartstella.com/resources/manuals/tuning/Graham-Bell-Two-Stroke-Performance-Tuning.pdf

The RM125 of the time shares a lot with the TF/TS 125 apart from the fact that they are a lot more mild on port specs. Bell talks a lot in the version about RM modification for road racing; and while not ideal in terms of modern theory, you will find it is a bloody good starting point.

On top of Dave's recommendations id also follow crank with mains and seals. Factory they are rubbish and are the two most causes of failure, seals will likely result in piston issues.

Handling and brakes... Cheap option. Pick up a FXR frame, everyone is converting but as a start they aren't that bad and a TF/TS fix in no worries...

[Nobbsie]

If you haven't read it already find a copy of Graham Bells performance tuning 2 stroke engine book & read it every night. It is old & out of date, but the very best place to start off (after reading the rules).

Just found it today will print it off tomorrow.
Thanks heaps for the advise guys, it is hard to work out where to start, but I'm thirsty to learn.

[F5 Dave]

Soo true. 2nd hand cranks will only end in tears.
Plenty of replacement options and also plenty of piston options to improve performance.

Here is a link to Bells book.
http://iheartstella.com/resources/manuals/tuning/Graham-Bell-Two-Stroke-Performance-Tuning.pdf

The RM125 of the time shares a lot with the TF/TS 125 apart from the fact that they are a lot more mild on port specs. Bell talks a lot in the version about RM modification for road racing; and while not ideal in terms of modern theory, you will find it is a bloody good starting point.

On top of Dave's recommendations id also follow crank with mains and seals. Factory they are rubbish and are the two most causes of failure, seals will likely result in piston issues.

Handling and brakes... Cheap option. Pick up a FXR frame, everyone is converting but as a start they aren't that bad and a TF/TS fix in no worries...
Qualman was just advertising fxr bits in bit thread.

[AllanB]

disappointing thread - by the title I presumed you were a young man asking for advice on how to satisfy your partner sexually.

Still there are many parallels that apply to racing:

Try to keep it up as long as you can

Ensure your rubber is in top condition

Fresh lubrication is critical

While riding your body position is critical to extracting maximum performance

Avoid putting anything in the outlet pipe as it can be dirty up there

If you go down stay there for a while to ensure everything feels OK

It's OK not to come first all the time

[Nobbsie]

hahahahahah well put,
my other question im struggling with is which gear to get, where i should spend more or less.
any advise there would also be great.

[Henk]

Get what you can afford. Second hand gear is fine for everything except helmets. Get a good helmet that fits etc but don't spend more than you will be happy throwing away, this is after all buckets and you can probably expect to crash a bit to start with.

[Pumba]

........you can probably expect to crash a bit to start with.

And then even more when you have been doing it a while:sweatdrop

[Nobbsie]

my plan was to buy a really good helmet is it worth going for the best of the best?

[AllanB]

my plan was to buy a really good helmet is it worth going for the best of the best?

Oh God don't start a helmet argument! :woohoo:

Depending on what rating system you go buy some of the most expensive helmets perform worse than significantly cheaper ones.

Get the most comfortable one with the features you desire (vents to cool you?) and ensure it has passed the relevant safety standards.

[Henk]

my plan was to buy a really good helmet is it worth going for the best of the best?

Without starting some sort of religious debate

Once upon a time in a land far away when I rode dirt bikes I bought, what was for me at the time, a sodding expensive helmet. Because I liked it and it was damned comfortable and stuff. Long story short I kept it for one crash too many because I had a lot of coins tied up in it. Then one day I woke up from a nap on the front guard that had been preceded by a trip over the bars. I'm not sure that the fact the helmet had done it's job too often had anything to do with the fact that I had been abducted by aliens for a while, but since then I buy helmets that I'm not going to agonise over throwing in a skip if I think they might have been compromised by a close encounter with the track or some other hard object.

[Henk]

And then even more when you have been doing it a while:sweatdrop

I would dream up some witty comeback but I'd be opening myself up to all sorts of well deserved abuse.

[Nobbsie]

ok didnt want to start a commotion. hahahahah
Thanks so much everyone for the advise

[Nobbsie]

oh and if anyones got old gear they want to trade for hunting gear/supplies let me know

[quallman1234]

oh and if anyones got old gear they want to trade for hunting gear/supplies let me know

How tall are you?

Hope to see you at Buckets, too bad its not on a sunday as we could probably had found you a bike for a test ride.

[Nobbsie]

176-180cm ish hahaha. Yea cant wait to come out and see how its all done.

[Nobbsie]

Hey guys is there a thread about peoples set ups? Like forks, breaks, frame, engine, and wheels. Or are people quite secret squirrel?

[F5 Dave]

Well the brakes one is stickyed at the top.

[Pumba]

Hey guys is there a thread about peoples set ups? Like forks, breaks, frame, engine, and wheels. Or are people quite secret squirrel?


Well the brakes one is stickyed at the top.

Pay attention Dave, he is clearly refering to broken bikes, or possibly boddies.

We did have an injury thread round here at some stage didnt we?

[Nobbsie]

Hahahaha good thing im not building a bike for a spelling bee, or id be toast!

[Pumba]

Hey guys is there a thread about peoples set ups? Like forks, breaks, frame, engine, and wheels. Or are people quite secret squirrel?

Now in a serious answer there are plenty of build threads on the forum about what different people have done to different bikes; however that would require a bit of reading and is really dependant on what you are planning on riding/building.

IMO the first step you need to take on this jounry is get some riding gear and if you have a running bike slap some protection on it and get to the track. Once you have ridden it, and talked to those that have had a bit of experience at the track you will start to get an idea of the direction you need to go into to achieve whatever it is you want to achieve.

Untill you have done that you are only pissing money away, shit and cant even put a number on the amount of builds that people have started only to end up on Trade Me/dusty shed corner/scrap 12/18/24 months latter without even turning a wheel in anger.

[Pumba]

Oh and just to add, most bucket racers are increadably open about what they have done and how they have set up thier bikes, and a decent number are even happy to help you beat them (well come second to them maybe)

take the ESE thread for example, basically an instruction manual for anyone that wants to build a mid 20HP GP125 right here on this forum.

[TZ350]

Because a few people have asked about the GP engine, to save wading through 270 pages, these links go to the more relevant posts about the 27hp engine.

238154 27rwhp 1978 Suzuki GP125


EngMod2T basic info for building a 30+hp Suzuki GP125 taken from the EngMod2T simulation files.

There you go, check the two links out, attached to them are more links to all the relevant info .....

293114

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=686939678

Currently for Sale on Trademe, I have seen this bike about and this is a very good Suzuki GP125 Bucket with a good spares collection. 26-28 rwhp is fairly easy to get reliably from these, its worth the money.

[Nobbsie]

OK Nobbsie boy has been thinking (dangerous).
So cast rims vs spoked rims.
Would it be safe to say cast rims are heavier but have less flex than spoked rims?
Which would in turn make me think you would have faster acceleration with spoked rims?
How much difference would it really make?
Could one hypothetically reduce flex of spoked rims/wheels by having softer suspension to delay the weight transfer?
Why do people choose the rims they have?

Cheers
Nobbsie

[Henk]

Cast
Easily available in the right(ish) sizes and no need for tubes.

[F5 Dave]

. . .
Would it be safe to say cast rims are heavier but have less flex than spoked rims?
Which would in turn make me think you would have faster acceleration with spoked rims?
. .
Not safe to say that. Add in the need to run tubes (say 400g) at the very circumference of the wheel (worst place by far) & its a hard call.

Some cast wheels will be heavier, some lighter. Getting spoked wheels in the right size to run decent tyres (read RS125 size slicks; 90x17 & 120x17) is expensive & a build it yourself approach required + a decent disc is hard to mount on most old hubs. I've built some light spoked wheels but I run my wets on them (when I actually ride in the wet, Ho-ho).

Cast for the win.

2.5" front & 3.5" rear is the best wheel sizes but you can get away with 2.15 & 3".

[quallman1234]

OK Nobbsie boy has been thinking (dangerous).
So cast rims vs spoked rims.
Would it be safe to say cast rims are heavier but have less flex than spoked rims?
Which would in turn make me think you would have faster acceleration with spoked rims?
How much difference would it really make?
Could one hypothetically reduce flex of spoked rims/wheels by having softer suspension to delay the weight transfer?
Why do people choose the rims they have?

Cheers
Nobbsie

What frame have you chosen?

Generally speaking, rims are the least of the flex problem.
The biggest amount of flex generally as i understand it, comes from either your forks (a fork brace can be made to counter this issue),
and your swingarm.

You shouldn't worry about things like flex for now. If you get a good frame, this issue wont be slowing you down untill you get to a really good level of riding. (Don't know your history of riding).
As i also have experienced. A bit of flex isn't a bad thing especially for beginners. As you certainly get more feel, and will lose that feel when you go stiffer. To a point ofc.

People usually aim for the wheels, to be
A)Disc compatible.
B)17" in diameter
C)As close to 2.5" Front and 3.5" Rear width
D)Try to be the lightest possible. But alot of the time you will have no choice.

These two requirements thus, make it possible to run 125GP slicks, which are amazing and there is no comparasion with road tires.
They have a tendancy to soak up alot of the bad handling aspects of frames.

Best option for now is, look into purchasing a frame. Turn up to Kaitoke this month, and check it out. Talk to some guys and even take some pictures of the bikes close up bits. (Ask the owner first).

Dont get caught up in the details. Produce something safe and legal and go ride the wheels off it.

[Nobbsie]

I have Chosen a modified Tf125 frame to start with. This and also the reason why i asked about rims is money. As I would like to get the bike together and get out on the track before i start to spend lots of money i dont have for no track time

[quallman1234]

I have Chosen a modified Tf125 frame to start with. This and also the reason why i asked about rims is money. As I would like to get the bike together and get out on the track before i start to spend lots of money i dont have for no track time

Too be honest. Won't be the rims, it will be your tire selection. What rim sizes have you got?

[Nobbsie]

Ive only got dirt bike rims :no: But i might be getting some 17 spoked rims depending what the are, a friend is digging them out for me to have a look at

[koba]

Cast for the win.



Forged for the Win!

Nobbsie, Just work on getting it running and track protected.

Better to make the decisions on where to spend money once you have seen more and have a better first-hand understanding.

[quallman1234]

Ive only got dirt bike rims :no: But i might be getting some 17 spoked rims depending what the are, a friend is digging them out for me to have a look at

They will do. Put some slicks on them and your'll be away laughing. Or good road bike tires like BT39.

Get it WELL protected. Then go ride the thing. Also need a catch tank.

[Pumba]

Forged for the Win!

Nobbsie, Just work on getting it running and track protected.

Better to make the decisions on where to spend money once you have seen more and have a better first-hand understanding.

No carbon fibre for the win (right after I win Lotto).

NOBBSIE, READ AND THEN RE READ THIS POST. You are over thinking it. Just get the damm bike to the track.

[Henk]

NOBBSIE, READ AND THEN RE READ THIS POST. You are over thinking it. Just get the damm bike to the track.

Much as I hate to agree with Pumba, he is right. Get it going, slap some nylon on it and get it to the track even if that means 20 year old tyres made of ginger nut biscuits. You might crash a bit but you'll be out there doing it and learning while you are at it.
If that Koba chap gets anywhere near you crash into him, would have worked for me if I hadn't broken my bike in the process.

[Nobbsie]

Sweet thanks heaps guys, bikes getting there, week or two and should be ready

[WilDun]

disappointing thread - by the title I presumed you were a young man asking for advice on how to satisfy your partner sexually.

Still there are many parallels that apply to racing:



Now why couldn't they have given us advice like that in the sixties when we were "racing" ? ;)

[quallman1234]

How did you get along, did you go visit Kaitoke?

[Nobbsie]

Man I'm so gutted I got called into work and couldn't get out there :angry:
When is the next meet?
Bikes getting there, too slowly for my liking

[F5 Dave]

Kaitoke 16th March sunday as usual