A question of body position

[Premature Accelerato]

I have a question about body position. Ive done a few trackdays over the last couple of years and my lap times are improving each year. I have no desire to race but I do want to go faster. My current problem is body position during Hard braking. Example. If you are coming to the end of a long straight and are about to hit your braking marker, should you have already got your arse over to the side for the next corner before you hit the brakes. I would imagine it is a bit dodgy to move while braking extremely hard but will the bike stay in line if you have moved your arse over in preperation for the next corner. Ive looked at a number of videos on the subject but most deal with either just braking without a mention of where you should be positioned or they deal with cornering and picking lines but without mention of hard braking and where and when your bum should be. Can I get some opinions on this or is it a case of individual experimentation. Any help or ideas would really be appreciated

[tigertim20]

I always got told Body, brakes, gear gas when I was learning from guys who have raced a bit.
dunno if thats how others do it or not, but works ok for me, but Im no fuckin Rossi either!

[CHOPPA]

Each corner is different :)

[quickbuck]

Each corner is different :)






Naturally Choppa is right.... I will just say though, if the corners you are talking about are like hair pins at the end of a fast straight then set up the body BEFORE touching the brakes. Reason is you will tire quickly if you move during.... And you will have to be built like Arnie.... In the 80's.

it will also upset the bike.



What I find with many track day riders is their corner speed is way down on what is actually possible....

It is pretty hard to coach over the internet, so you are actually better to do a course.... I can think of a very good one.... Also body position is also talked about a lot at Pro Rider....


Are you heading to Manfeild on Sunday?






Sent from my Nokia using Tapa talk.

[quickbuck]

I always got told Body, brakes, gear, TURN, gas when I was learning from guys who have raced a bit.

dunno if thats how others do it or not, but works ok for me, but Im no fuckin Rossi either!




Ummm, had to fix it for you...





Sent from my Nokia using Tapa talk.

[Shaun Harris]

As choopa said, case by case

Theories are great, but what ever you are the most comfortable doing, will make you safer and faster

[Premature Accelerato]

Thanks people for your input. Unfortunately I cant get to Manfeild this weekend Quickbuck but I try at every opportunity. Yep, corner speed is what I am after. Its getting into the right position for it that I am trying to improve so am questioning other peoples techniques. At present, at the end of long straights, I am sitting centrally on the bike. At my marker I brake like mad, knock off most of my speed then reposition myself to the side of the seat ready for the turn. The consequence seems to be that I have lost too much speed in order to give myself time to repostition. So, I was thinking that if I move over on the bike before I braked, that I could brake later and then hopefully carry more speed through the corners. My natural style is not to hang my arse way off the side in order to get my knees on the deck though I can if i want (cos im getting on in years and have arthritic knees, I might get them down and then not be able to get back up on the bike :-) ) but im attempting more of a when/how weight transfer exercise. Am I right?

[Shaun Harris]

Thanks people for your input. Unfortunately I cant get to Manfeild this weekend Quickbuck but I try at every opportunity. Yep, corner speed is what I am after. Its getting into the right position for it that I am trying to improve so am questioning other peoples techniques. At present, at the end of long straights, I am sitting centrally on the bike. At my marker I brake like mad, knock off most of my speed then reposition myself to the side of the seat ready for the turn. The consequence seems to be that I have lost too much speed in order to give myself time to repostition. So, I was thinking that if I move over on the bike before I braked, that I could brake later and then hopefully carry more speed through the corners. My natural style is not to hang my arse way off the side in order to get my knees on the deck though I can if i want (cos im getting on in years and have arthritic knees, I might get them down and then not be able to get back up on the bike :-) ) but im attempting more of a when/how weight transfer exercise. Am I right?










Me personally, they way you described your current style is the way I would choose to do it, it is a matter of becoming exterelly adaptable to changes and being smooth and using your legs to stand up and move your arse and lower yourself back down again smoothly and calmly.

[quickbuck]

Thanks people for your input. Unfortunately I cant get to Manfeild this weekend Quickbuck but I try at every opportunity. Yep, corner speed is what I am after. Its getting into the right position for it that I am trying to improve so am questioning other peoples techniques. At present, at the end of long straights, I am sitting centrally on the bike. At my marker I brake like mad, knock off most of my speed then reposition myself to the side of the seat ready for the turn. The consequence seems to be that I have lost too much speed in order to give myself time to repostition. So, I was thinking that if I move over on the bike before I braked, that I could brake later and then hopefully carry more speed through the corners. My natural style is not to hang my arse way off the side in order to get my knees on the deck though I can if i want (cos im getting on in years and have arthritic knees, I might get them down and then not be able to get back up on the bike :-) ) but im attempting more of a when/how weight transfer exercise. Am I right?

hmm,
Sounds like you know what you need to do... And to me it sounds like you are more my size than Shauns.
Sorry if I got that wrong, but I am the heaviest rider in 250 Production.. tipping 105kg fully kitted...

Anyhow what I would suggest is to find your Turn point first. (Forget about the brakes).
Then work back from there....
So then you will establist an Off Brakes point.
Then from that you will work out your Start Brake point (Of course this depends on HEAPS! Most of all your ability to brake).
Then you decise with the force that is generated where you actually move your butt.
Contary to what I have seen, you do not have to hang youre whole body off your outside calf mussle.
I can only move until the middle of my butt is on the edge of the seat..... (We all know where that is, so a good place to start).
As I said, I am not little. Any more and my poor little 250 gets really upset.

The last thing you want to be doing is getting off the brakes and then changing all the bikes geometery before/ as you turn the bike into the corner....

I have seen this:
Brake hard....
Release Brakes,
Move body
Accelerate to corner
Turn motorcycle
Freak out
Shut throttle
Accelerate hard (because they thought they were going too slow)
Stand bike up and head to next corner....

Yup, they almost crashed at least 3 times in that one corner!!!
And if it was wet.. .well, I bet you they don't like riding in the wet because the bike handles funny.......

REMEMBER:
I am only thinking on ONE corner of 7 at Manfeild in that whole text...

As for knee down.. It only causes Friction, and that slows you down.....

[quickbuck]

Me personally, they way you described your current style is the way I would choose to do it, it is a matter of becoming exterelly adaptable to changes and being smooth and using your legs to stand up and move your arse and lower yourself back down again smoothly and calmly.

Oh yeah...
Shaun knows a thing or two as well...
As we say to students, "don't be a Plonker".

[wharfy]

As for knee down.. It only causes Friction, and that slows you down.....

Yeah but it looks cool and thats more important :)
Oh I'm on the lookout for a pair of 500mm clipon bars so I can get my elbow down :)

[Dogboy900]

Yeah but it looks cool and thats more important :)
Oh I'm on the lookout for a pair of 500mm clipon bars so I can get my elbow down :)

That made me laugh! Its ALL about how you look!

Have to say I do love getting my knee down makes me laugh every time, and realistically I ride bikes to put a smile on my dial :)

In response to the OP I would have thought it is easier to brace yourself under hard braking while central on the bike. Can't say I am that fast on the track though so just my thoughts on it.

[tbs]

I've spent a fair bit of time watching Simon Crafar's first MotoVudu video, and he does address that exact topic. Some of the things he says actually appear to me to be counter to what the Keith Code school of thought teaches, but so far, I feel more comfortable using Simon's methods.

His recommendation for hard braking is to move your lower body first, and let your nuts slide up against the tank, so you're not wasting energy trying to hold yourself back on the seat. Then he holds his upper body upright with his arms while braking as late and hard as possible and downshifts so he carries lots of revs into the turn. When he gets to his brake release point he simultaneously and smoothly releases the brake and leans his upper body into his cornering position. The whole idea being to shed as much speed as possible while relatively upright, and then avoid de-stablizing the bike on corner entry. He claims the bike will turn the best on a closed throttle at high rpm. When he does crack the throttle, he just holds it on to maintain corner speed, before standing the bike up and wrenching it on full.

I had always tended to stay centered on the bike and push myself back on the seat, and then when I was done with the hard braking I would shift my body while still trail braking. I am much more comfortable and smooth since I adopted Simon's method.

His mantra that he repeats over and over, is that you can make the most time on a track by making all the straights as long as possible and getting on full gas as early as possible. It seems like he will sacrifice a bit of mid corner speed to keep the bike upright for a few more meters, and then get it turned while using a lot of engine braking on a closed throttle, before standing it up as soon as he can and get on full gas. Following this advice put me in different parts of the track than a lot of riders at my last track day, especially ones who use the CCS late apex, crack the throttle and keep rolling it on technique.


Any of you experienced guys familiar with Simon Crafar's teaching and care to comment? Pros and cons?

[Shaun Harris]

I've spent a fair bit of time watching Simon Crafar's first MotoVudu video, and he does address that exact topic. Some of the things he says actually appear to me to be counter to what the Keith Code school of thought teaches, but so far, I feel more comfortable using Simon's methods.

His recommendation for hard braking is to move your lower body first, and let your nuts slide up against the tank, so you're not wasting energy trying to hold yourself back on the seat. Then he holds his upper body upright with his arms while braking as late and hard as possible and downshifts so he carries lots of revs into the turn. When he gets to his brake release point he simultaneously and smoothly releases the brake and leans his upper body into his cornering position. The whole idea being to shed as much speed as possible while relatively upright, and then avoid de-stablizing the bike on corner entry. He claims the bike will turn the best on a closed throttle at high rpm. When he does crack the throttle, he just holds it on to maintain corner speed, before standing the bike up and wrenching it on full.

I had always tended to stay centered on the bike and push myself back on the seat, and then when I was done with the hard braking I would shift my body while still trail braking. I am much more comfortable and smooth since I adopted Simon's method.

His mantra that he repeats over and over, is that you can make the most time on a track by making all the straights as long as possible and getting on full gas as early as possible. It seems like he will sacrifice a bit of mid corner speed to keep the bike upright for a few more meters, and then get it turned while using a lot of engine braking on a closed throttle, before standing it up as soon as he can and get on full gas. Following this advice put me in different parts of the track than a lot of riders at my last track day, especially ones who use the CCS late apex, crack the throttle and keep rolling it on technique.


Any of you experienced guys familiar with Simon Crafar's teaching and care to comment? Pros and cons?









Keith code is only a writer ( Good 1 but) and all the people teaching under the name of kc schools are taught how to teach hie techniques, SIMON is a GP500 race WINNER Enough said I think. The proof is in the pudding man.

[Premature Accelerato]

TBS. I also have a copy of Simons video and know that section of the video you are talking about but for the life of me, I dont hear mention of when you should actually shift your butt over. On most sections where there are no straights of appreciable length, I do as he says and have my butt to one side, even when braking, but as I have been asking, its at the end of long straights where you brake hard that i have been of two minds what to do about weight transfer. I might have a go at moving before I brake and slowly build up speed and braking effort to see what works. Practice practice practice. Re Simons video, I have found it reasonably educational.

[Shaun Harris]

TBS. I also have a copy of Simons video and know that section of the video you are talking about but for the life of me, I dont hear mention of when you should actually shift your butt over. On most sections where there are no straights of appreciable length, I do as he says and have my butt to one side, even when braking, but as I have been asking, its at the end of long straights where you brake hard that i have been of two minds what to do about weight transfer. I might have a go at moving before I brake and slowly build up speed and braking effort to see what works. Practice practice practice. Re Simons video, I have found it reasonably educational.








long straights as descired above by TBS from simons book dvd mate. Rolling flowing corners are just that, so arse out the side in advance does not upset the bike any way.

[wharfy]

Keith code is only a writer ( Good 1 but) and all the people teaching under the name of kc schools are taught how to teach hie techniques, SIMON is a GP500 race WINNER Enough said I think. The proof is in the pudding man.

"The proof of the pudding is in the eating" Had to mention that as what I know about bike racing would fit on the back of a postage stamp :)

[FROSTY]

Heres what I'd suggest trying. Its how Freddy merkle put it to me.
-Shift your body to the inside of the turn.
Get on the brakes as needed .
knee out and lean the bike.

That seperates the actions.
Dont worry about being slow to start with

[chucklesby]

Keith code is only a writer

, SIMON is a GP500 race WINNER


what he said

[Metastable]

Any movement on the bike as you are about to tip in can upset the bike.

Get your butt in position..... brake.... etc. Use your knees on the tank to hold yourself while braking....

Just check out the current crop of GP guys.... Stoner (retired, but lots of videos around), Lorenzo, Pedrosa.... etc.... they all have very good technique.

[Premature Accelerato]

I had a chance to have a go at new body positions a week or so ago and while I didnt improve my times I was consistent and have come across a new problem associated with trying to brake and down shift while my arse is to one side of the seat. I had a hell of a lot of trouble changing gears as my leg is obviously not in the same place when my arse is to one side. My question; would this problem be fixed if I was to fit a set of rear sets?

[steveyb]

That is one of the many reasons why that technique is incorrect. Sort of like the bloke I saw at Taupo the other weekend going down the whole straight with his arse and leg hanging out in the breeze. He was 'ready' for the corner as he left the last corner, or the blokes that spend thousands of $ on faster engines only to go slower cos they don't know how to use the HP and get scared.

Your approach is totally typical of most people involved in this 'sport'. Well, actually they don't treat it as a sport, it is merely a hobby to all but about 5% of riders.

You/they will trawl the internet for opinions from others for free, when mostly that is all those opinions are worth, and then try and put something into practice that you have not been instructed on nor have the keyboard warriors seen what you are actually doing or capable of doing.

Heaven forbid that you might actually engage the services of a qualified coach to teach you, one on one, how to improve your skill set. But then you wonder, out aloud too, why you are not improving. Who was it said "Best be thought of as a fool than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt". That is a bit harsh I know, but come on, if you really do want to do it, do it right!

How about taking that money you are clearly willing to spend on new kit and spend it on a coach, such as California Superbike School or someone else?

By the way, Keith Code might not have won any Grands Prix, but he was a AMA Superbike race winner and as we can see by our Super Rugby teams in NZ, the best players don't often make the best coaches.
(I am not affiliated with CSS by the way, other than being mates with some of them).

[Metastable]

Steveyb - what do the coaches teach then? Because on the race schools I have been to, they always mention to have your butt in position before you turn in.... and yes, on a shorter straight, going from a right to a right or left to left, it isn't an issue to keep your butt off to the same side. When are you suppose to shift, when turning in? It can be done, but now you are doing one other thing right when you are trying to do your maximum brake, turn it, etc. Get that out of the way first. It just makes it easier. Actually if you take the Yamaha Champions School, they will beat that into your head from day 1 to day 3. :D

Premature Acc.. - I am not tall 173cm or so.... and have never had any issues reaching the shifter on anything from R6s, to Gixxers, to Kawis, to CBRs.... etc while riding at the track. Is it just on the right hand corners? Maybe just adjust your shifter height/position, that might be part of the problem. Are you hanging off too far? IMO, body positioning is extremely difficult. I have a hard time doing what I know I should do.

[RobGassit]

I had a chance to have a go at new body positions a week or so ago and while I didnt improve my times I was consistent and have come across a new problem associated with trying to brake and down shift while my arse is to one side of the seat. I had a hell of a lot of trouble changing gears as my leg is obviously not in the same place when my arse is to one side. My question; would this problem be fixed if I was to fit a set of rear sets?

Common sense will apply here. If you have all your controls set up so they are comfortable to use in your racing posture, then obviously for a right hand turn you will have to sacrifice body position until the more import downshift is be completed. Rearsets may well help a little, but the answer is to prioritise what order you do things on the approach to the corner. There are lot's of books available so you don't have to reinvent the wheel here. The Twist of the Wrist series is popular. A day at the track just watching the fast guy's and dissecting what they do at certain places on the track is really helpful. Then get a buddy to video you and you will see the difference in what you think you are doing on the bike to what is actually happening.Step by step you will improve, and that's where alot of the enjoyment is,,in improving your skill. If it was easy it would quickly loose it's appeal. Stay smooth and don't try to go fast. Speed will come as your ability and confidence improve. Little to be learned by landing on your head, except for the price of helmets. Most racers at the track will honestly answer any well thought out questions you may have.

[eelracing]

Steveyb - what do the coaches teach then? Because on the race schools I have been to, they always mention to have your butt in position before you turn in... I have a hard time doing what I know I should do.

Stevey always practices what he preaches...notice the position of his ample torso and the eyes looking where he want's to go...only problem is the turning in bit that's got him fucked.

[Premature Accelerato]

Yep, its just the right handers (as in the end of the longish straights at Manfeild; which is my local track). I will try making small adjustment to the gear shift lever and see if the that improves things. Steveyb, I would love to have the cash to hire a coach and I will admit to not being a racer and not treating riding as a sport. However, when you have family commitments cash is not always readily available so I treat what time I can get at the track as a privilage. I have a deal with my missus (this may not go down well with some and may give other spouses ideas) for every dollar I spend on the bike or track, she is able spend an equivalent amount of what ever she chooses so if I buy a $350.00 tyre, she gets a $350.00 pair of shoes or what ever, even if she doesent want them or need them. So for every track day it costs our family twice what it might cost others. To me this is only fair. My old gixer desperately needs a new rear shock so you can see how much that is going to cost. (end of mini rant). Thanks for all advice, I am listening.

[RobGassit]

Yep, its just the right handers (as in the end of the longish straights at Manfeild; which is my local track). I will try making small adjustment to the gear shift lever and see if the that improves things. Steveyb, I would love to have the cash to hire a coach and I will admit to not being a racer and not treating riding as a sport. However, when you have family commitments cash is not always readily available so I treat what time I can get at the track as a privilage. I have a deal with my missus (this may not go down well with some and may give other spouses ideas) for every dollar I spend on the bike or track, she is able spend an equivalent amount of what ever she chooses so if I buy a $350.00 tyre, she gets a $350.00 pair of shoes or what ever, even if she doesent want them or need them. So for every track day it costs our family twice what it might cost others. To me this is only fair. My old gixer desperately needs a new rear shock so you can see how much that is going to cost. (end of mini rant). Thanks for all advice, I am listening.

We all have a higher calling, and she who must be obeyed is as high as it gets,,hehe.

[steveyb]

Yep, its just the right handers (as in the end of the longish straights at Manfeild; which is my local track). I will try making small adjustment to the gear shift lever and see if the that improves things. Steveyb, I would love to have the cash to hire a coach and I will admit to not being a racer and not treating riding as a sport. However, when you have family commitments cash is not always readily available so I treat what time I can get at the track as a privilage. I have a deal with my missus (this may not go down well with some and may give other spouses ideas) for every dollar I spend on the bike or track, she is able spend an equivalent amount of what ever she chooses so if I buy a $350.00 tyre, she gets a $350.00 pair of shoes or what ever, even if she doesent want them or need them. So for every track day it costs our family twice what it might cost others. To me this is only fair. My old gixer desperately needs a new rear shock so you can see how much that is going to cost. (end of mini rant). Thanks for all advice, I am listening.

You are right on the money there. In setting up and running Moto Academy NZ I have selfishly deprived my family of a good deposit on a nice house. So we don't have one.
Fair enough, a trackday guy who wants to get better, MUCH better than the trackday guys who already think they are better, but aren't!
Manfeild is a funny track. It looks easy, but can take a lot of work to sort it out, especially when the majority of the time to make up is from T2 to T5, i.e. the turny bits. T7 is also where time is made up, i.e. the FAST corner.
The key to setting up the bike and balancing it into and in the corners is, body position, sort of obvious.
But what to do with it is not.
If you have MotoGP.com video pass, have a good look back at some of the old footage from the 90's and then compare with today. The styles have completely changed. The riders now use their UPPER bodies to balance the bike, not their lower bodies as they once did.
That means you stay tucked as long as you can, using your knees and the tank to brace under braking (they do sit up but only because they are going so fast, twice or more what you will be doing most often), stay on the seat while you brake and shift gears, in quick succession, not: shift wait, shift wait, shift wait, but shift, shift shift; all while braking. Then as you tip the bike into the corner you slide your UPPER body with it into the corner, only sliding your lower half as much as needed to be comfortable, i.e. about 1/2 an arse. And that is a slide, not a lift and plonk back down. And always looking up the track, where you WANT to go. Looking anywhere else will send you there.

So, that is how the new riders get their elbows down on the ground and why the older MotoGP riders are adopting the style, because it works.
But you know, it takes work, flexibility, and some balls.

BTW, I did do well in that race in the pic. Second behind Kattenberg on the FZR1000 if I recall, or one of the races that weekend anyway, the wet one when I nearly beat the old bugger on the fabulous 1989 Honda RS250!! (Had to sell her to pay those bills unfortunately). But as you can see from the style (mind you it is a very slow corner and I had just come down the outside of the Spewzuki on the brakes I think after a slow start) I am not down the side of the bike very well and have my upper body too far up in the air. This is the point about practice. It was my first race back for many months and I was well out of practice and yes, too ample of torso. Still have that affliction although working on it.......


Get out in the garage and sit on the bike and practice sliding your upper body down the side of the bike and doing the braking and shifting. Practice does not need to happen only at the track! You will see it makes you feel really racey as well as improving balance on the bike. All of that adds up to faster laptimes.

Enjoy. The bill is in the mail ;-)

[Shaun Harris]

Get out in the garage and sit on the bike and practice sliding your upper body down the side of the bike and doing the braking and shifting. Practice does not need to happen only at the track! You will see it makes you feel really racey as well as improving balance on the bike. All of that adds up to faster laptimes.

Enjoy. The bill is in the mail ;-)










Agree with this Steve, quite amazing what a rider will discover by doing it. Take the time to focus on your wrist angles, ie are the clip ons in the best position for you to be comfortable, any clip ons can be re positioned even standard ones with location pins on them, ( Cut the pins off and do the bolt/s up to CORRECT TOURQUE settings.

[RobGassit]

You are right on the money there. In setting up and running Moto Academy NZ I have selfishly deprived my family of a good deposit on a nice house. So we don't have one.
Fair enough, a trackday guy who wants to get better, MUCH better than the trackday guys who already think they are better, but aren't!
Manfeild is a funny track. It looks easy, but can take a lot of work to sort it out, especially when the majority of the time to make up is from T2 to T5, i.e. the turny bits. T7 is also where time is made up, i.e. the FAST corner.
The key to setting up the bike and balancing it into and in the corners is, body position, sort of obvious.
But what to do with it is not.
If you have MotoGP.com video pass, have a good look back at some of the old footage from the 90's and then compare with today. The styles have completely changed. The riders now use their UPPER bodies to balance the bike, not their lower bodies as they once did.
That means you stay tucked as long as you can, using your knees and the tank to brace under braking (they do sit up but only because they are going so fast, twice or more what you will be doing most often), stay on the seat while you brake and shift gears, in quick succession, not: shift wait, shift wait, shift wait, but shift, shift shift; all while braking. Then as you tip the bike into the corner you slide your UPPER body with it into the corner, only sliding your lower half as much as needed to be comfortable, i.e. about 1/2 an arse. And that is a slide, not a lift and plonk back down. And always looking up the track, where you WANT to go. Looking anywhere else will send you there.

So, that is how the new riders get their elbows down on the ground and why the older MotoGP riders are adopting the style, because it works.
But you know, it takes work, flexibility, and some balls.

BTW, I did do well in that race in the pic. Second behind Kattenberg on the FZR1000 if I recall, or one of the races that weekend anyway, the wet one when I nearly beat the old bugger on the fabulous 1989 Honda RS250!! (Had to sell her to pay those bills unfortunately). But as you can see from the style (mind you it is a very slow corner and I had just come down the outside of the Spewzuki on the brakes I think after a slow start) I am not down the side of the bike very well and have my upper body too far up in the air. This is the point about practice. It was my first race back for many months and I was well out of practice and yes, too ample of torso. Still have that affliction although working on it.......


Get out in the garage and sit on the bike and practice sliding your upper body down the side of the bike and doing the braking and shifting. Practice does not need to happen only at the track! You will see it makes you feel really racey as well as improving balance on the bike. All of that adds up to faster laptimes.

Enjoy. The bill is in the mail ;-)


Could be a book in there Steve.???
"twist of the Wallet"???

Hope you will still coach the odd young talent Steve.

[Metastable]

You are right on the money there. .....
Enjoy. The bill is in the mail ;-)

He's correct on everything he said. IMO, you still get your butt off and sorted ahead of time.... not hanging off your upper body, just the butt. Then like steveyb said - push your upper body out as you are tipping in. Watch the top pros, they all do similar stuff.... dunno how Marquez hangs off so much and still has any feel though. :D

[steveyb]

He's correct on everything he said. IMO, you still get your butt off and sorted ahead of time.... not hanging off your upper body, just the butt. Then like steveyb said - push your upper body out as you are tipping in. Watch the top pros, they all do similar stuff.... dunno how Marquez hangs off so much and still has any feel though. :D

The issue with doing that is that as soon as you move your bum off the seat you need to twist your body.
That creates the situation where your legs are no longer in the optimal position to grip the tank, to brake with the rear, to shift gear quickly and easily.
Also, the more movements you make on the bike, the more inputs to suspension/tyres you create. Part of the equation for the fast, and safe, lap time is making as few, smooth inputs as possible.

Just as Shaun indicated, sit on the bike in various positions and set up all the moveable stuff so that it is as comfortable for you in racing positions as is possible.
Also, shift to race-shift pattern if possible. It is not much, but makes riding fast just that touch easier.
And work on the race crouch/tuck. Really surprising how many riders/racers think they are tucking but are not even close.

That's two bills in the mail ;-)

[steveyb]

Could be a book in there Steve.???
"twist of the Wallet"???

Hope you will still coach the odd young talent Steve.

More like: MotoVoodooo, The Dark Art of the Overdraft.

Not hearing anyone knocking down the door, so I doubt it.
I keep coming back to the situation where our riders think they know it all and can learn it all by themselves.
Don't see Lydia Ko, Val Adams, Sophie Pascoe or the All Blacks doing it that way.

[RobGassit]

More like: MotoVoodooo, The Art of the Overdraft.

Not hearing anyone knocking down the door, so I doubt it.
I keep coming back to the situation where our riders think they know it all and can learn it all by themselves.
Don't see Lydia Ko, Val Adams, Sophie Pascoe or the All Blacks doing it that way.

That's so true, and some don't even have an interested observer to bounce ideas off or have a pit stand ready. I wonder if the scholarship would be better served providing a mentor available to club members at meetings than just targeting one rider per year. A lot of club racers don't know what they don't know, and so the the lessons are learn't the hard way. There is an entertainment factor though I have to say, for those who have seen it all before. History repeats, except in Canterbury where the clubs run a nursery. How long before the North Island can produce anything like the calibre of what is coming out of the mainland glasshouse?

[BoristheBiter]

Keith code is only a writer ( Good 1 but) and all the people teaching under the name of kc schools are taught how to teach hie techniques, SIMON is a GP500 race WINNER Enough said I think. The proof is in the pudding man.

I think it's because KC teaches how to be better with road riding in mind and Simon teaches how to race.

I think the name does CSS a disservice as it's not a superbike school.
But in saying that it has made me much smoother and that does equate to faster.

[malcy25]

I think it's because KC teaches how to be better with road riding in mind

Funny, after doing lvls 1-3 (all last year), I didn't think that at all. To my mind it was very much the technical art of riding and operating the bike in the most efficient manner, with no specific direction to road riding at all.

[Shaun Harris]

I think it's because KC teaches how to be better with road riding in mind and Simon teaches how to race.

I think the name does CSS a disservice as it's not a superbike school.
But in saying that it has made me much smoother and that does equate to faster.











KC Himself has worked direct with some of the very best USA Racers over the years mate.

[tail_end_charlie]

Funny, after doing lvls 1-3 (all last year), I didn't think that at all. To my mind it was very much the technical art of riding and operating the bike in the most efficient manner, with no specific direction to road riding at all.

That's probably one of the best ways to put it. (I've also done levels 1-3 of CSS) I found afterward that both my road riding and my track riding had improved significantly. CSS definitely doesn't teach you anything about racecraft, or 'proper racing lines', but they do teach you when and where to look, how to properly operate the bike, and how to position yourself to help the bike as much as possible through the turns.

It's like they say, it may be called a Superbike school, but its really for all riders.

[Drew]

It's all about feel. You either have it....or have to ask these questions on the internet.

[Shaun Harris]

It's all about feel. You either have it....or have to ask these questions on the internet.








That about sums it up drew.

[BoristheBiter]

That's probably one of the best ways to put it. (I've also done levels 1-3 of CSS) I found afterward that both my road riding and my track riding had improved significantly. CSS definitely doesn't teach you anything about racecraft, or 'proper racing lines', but they do teach you when and where to look, how to properly operate the bike, and how to position yourself to help the bike as much as possible through the turns.

It's like they say, it may be called a Superbike school, but its really for all riders.

That was what i meant.


KC Himself has worked direct with some of the very best USA Racers over the years mate.

yes i did know that but his book, vid and school aren't aimed at racing.

[Metastable]

I imagine CSS to be somewhat similar to YCRS (Yamaha Champions Riding School).... it's the old Freddie Spencer school. When I attended the 3 day course, we had 20 students (max number for Miller), there were a few that were newbie riders, some guys that wanted to get into trackdays, some guys that wanted to get into racing, some guys that just wanted to be better track riders or street riders and we had a few racers too. The course per say was the same for everyone, however they structured it for every individual. Depending on the skill levels the instructors would go more in depth with certain riders.

THe amazing thing was that ALL the students could easily handle an intermediate trackday group by the end of the program with the exception of 1 guy.... who was a total newbie when he started. However, he'd be easily mid-pack in the beginner group. It was amazing seeing the progress of all the students.... including the racers. Everyone was visibly quicker than on the first day.

I'd say the course would be appropriate for any level of riding.

[Drew]

I imagine CSS to be somewhat similar to YCRS (Yamaha Champions Riding School).... it's the old Freddie Spencer school. When I attended the 3 day course, we had 20 students (max number for Miller), there were a few that were newbie riders, some guys that wanted to get into trackdays, some guys that wanted to get into racing, some guys that just wanted to be better track riders or street riders and we had a few racers too. The course per say was the same for everyone, however they structured it for every individual. Depending on the skill levels the instructors would go more in depth with certain riders.

THe amazing thing was that ALL the students could easily handle an intermediate trackday group by the end of the program with the exception of 1 guy.... who was a total newbie when he started. However, he'd be easily mid-pack in the beginner group. It was amazing seeing the progress of all the students.... including the racers. Everyone was visibly quicker than on the first day.

I'd say the course would be appropriate for any level of riding.Was your avatar pic taken before, or after this course? I only ask because in that shot, you're doing it wrong....if it's you of course.

[Metastable]

Oh man, that was way before the course. Having said that, I still struggle with my body positioning post course..... 10+ years of doing it a bit wrong and it's hard to change ya know. :D

I have a tendency to rotate my upper body.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5T-YLPsV7g

That is post course, still doing it wrong. :D Although I should cut myself some slack. That was my first time riding a bike (on pavement - did a bit of dirt) post course and over 1 year after the course, on a brand new track. I blew my ACL after the course and had it reconstructed.

Anyhoo - if anyone wastes their time watching the video (not much happens) the film bike catches up to me at the 12 minute mark..... and yes I also missed a downshift which made my exit of the corner around the 15min mark atrocious, then shortly after I pull into the pits. Oh and that's the slow group.... it was race weekend, so they broke the groups into: street, racer1 and racer2. I kind felt sorry for some of the slower guys.... since there were some seriously quick dudes that weren't racers. BTW, if the speedo doesn't make sense, that's because it is mph, not kph.

[Premature Accelerato]

I just want to convey a word of thanks to everyone for their words of advice. Since my last post i have had a chance to try the things that were suggested to me. As a result, I have knocked a couple of seconds off my lap times. I forced my self to practice the body positions on the bike while stationary and then resisted the temptation to go all out on the track first time but instead practiced at a safe speed until the new positons became familiar. It was definately easier to practice while on the move as I guess centrifugal force plays a part. Getting in to position earlier got easier each time and as the day wore on I was able to pick up speed and alter my braking points. All in all a great day, so again, thanks everyone.

[steveyb]

Still waiting on your cheque!

:msn-wink:

But cereal, good on you. Now, just find that coach to make the next steps and to verify that you are going down the right paths.


It was asked in an earlier post, something like, How does Marquez do it, or change line or something like that anyway.
I was watching Jerez the other day and watching the close-ups with the highspeed camera of him. The last turn was the most demonstrating.
He was entering the corner in a sideways fashion, which is a function of TALENT, chassis design (apparently the Yamaha M1 does not take kindly to being thrown sideways like that), TALENT, slipper clutch, TALENT, rear brake (I see he has been testing a larger disc and caliper on the rear) and practice.
Then transferring as quickly as possible into the turn (quick turn corner, cheers CSS) and getting leaned over as far as possible by making himself a part of the bike.
Riders who sit on the top of the bike and thrust their bodies out from the bike create all sorts of undesirable lever moments and poor centres of gravity.
But the best part was watching him adjust position and change the line whilst at 50+ degrees of lean. It was so subtle but because of his zen with the machine he was able to do it.
I think that is one of the issues slowing the others down. They are not zen with their machines in the way that MM is. As I have mentioned previously, he simply believes that his machine will do what he wants, when he wants, how he wants and just goes and does it.
That is the art of confidence.
A smattering of SKILL and TALENT help to build that confidence, but all of the top 5 or 6 riders have those things. What they are lacking is the confidence to push that extra 0.25% from Go to Whoa.
Just look at him on the bike, he is at one with his machine. He might as well be Borg. 1of18 perhaps?

[cowpoos]

Each corner is different :)

yup...except on the next lap. :rolleyes: