Proposed rule changes

[Billy]

Just a heads up to all MNZ members

We are accepting proposed rulechanges for 2015 from now through til the end of March,It would be to your advantage to have them in through the correct channels outlined on the MNZ website by the 14th of March as they will need to be discussed between myself and a group of people I have set up to consider whether they are to be displayed on the MNZ website as proposed changes.As the last 2 weekends of March host the final 2 rounds of NZSBK 2014,My time to spend on these will be limited,If they have not been considered in a reasonable manner and are not displayed on the MNZ site by the 1st of April,Then they will not be considered until next year.

[codgyoleracer]

Just a heads up to all MNZ members

We are accepting proposed rulechanges for 2015 from now through til the end of March,It would be to your advantage to have them in through the correct channels outlined on the MNZ website by the 14th of March as they will need to be discussed between myself and a group of people I have set up to consider whether they are to be displayed on the MNZ website as proposed changes.As the last 2 weekends of March host the final 2 rounds of NZSBK 2014,My time to spend on these will be limited,If they have not been considered in a reasonable manner and are not displayed on the MNZ site by the 1st of April,Then they will not be considered until next year.


Stock Superbikes and 600s, right down to the chains............... :corn:

[Billy]

Stock Superbikes and 600s, right down to the chains............... :corn:

Oh yeah.....Like 250 Production only bigger,Where will we get all the personel to catch the cheats????

[The Chow]

Stock Superbikes and 600s, right down to the chains............... :corn:
:killingme

[The Chow]

:killingme

Hey Billy , how about this....

Up to 250 4 Stroke Superbike (opps already got that one) , so we make it completely stock 250 then.

[The Chow]

Oh yeah.....Like 250 Production only bigger,Where will we get all the personel to catch the cheats???? Don't need any extra personel Billy , because why check? , no one has ever cheated at production motorcycle racing :whistle:

[Billy]

Hey Billy , how about this....

Up to 250 4 Stroke Superbike (opps already got that one) , so we make it completely stock 250 then.

Well now I'm confused.....Which one is it

[Billy]

Don't need any extra personel Billy , because why check? , no one has ever cheated at production motorcycle racing :whistle:

HAhahahahahahaha,I'll reply to that one Friday night when my elephant friend arrives aye?

[jasonu]

Oh yeah.....Like 250 Production only bigger,Where will we get all the personel to catch the cheats????

Wot??? People cheat?:shit::confused:
I thought it was a gentlemans sport.

[scracha]

Oh yeah.....Like 250 Production only bigger,Where will we get all the personel to catch the cheats????

Why would it be so hard to detect cheats? Noticeably faster bike....dyno...scales....if the numbers don't stack up and they still deny it...stripdown....sorted.

[Shaun Harris]

Why would it be so hard to detect cheats? Noticeably faster bike....dyno...scales....if the numbers don't stack up and they still deny it...stripdown....sorted.




The cost involved in having dyno runs done alone man would bury the sport even deeper than it already is, unless you are going to buy one and transport it around. Std suspension yes, that would be as funny as fek to watch all the crashing and tyres getting wrecked, again killing the sport off due to overheads

[Billy]

Why would it be so hard to detect cheats? Noticeably faster bike....dyno...scales....if the numbers don't stack up and they still deny it...stripdown....sorted.

Stick around mate,ALL will be revealed a little later in the week,What youve stated is how it SHOULD work,But theres more to it than that,Watch this space

[Billy]

The cost involved in having dyno runs done alone man would bury the sport even deeper than it already is, unless you are going to buy one and transport it around. Std suspension yes, that would be as funny as fek to watch all the crashing and tyres getting wrecked, again killing the sport off due to overheads

Dyno run means nothing anyway,Unless as youve stated it's done right there and then AND under the supervision of the Steward and Clerk of Course,You like myself and MANY others know how easy it is to lose power on a fuel injected machine given 10 minutes alone,A zero or rich map will take of a good percentage or even a lump of rag over the air intake

[Shaun Harris]

Dyno run means nothing anyway,Unless as youve stated it's done right there and then AND under the supervision of the Steward and Clerk of Course,You like myself and MANY others know how easy it is to lose power on a fuel injected machine given 10 minutes alone,A zero or rich map will take of a good percentage or even a lump of rag over the air intake







True that, forgot about being a cheating cheater

[scracha]

The cost involved in having dyno runs done alone man would bury the sport even deeper than it already is, unless you are going to buy one and transport it around. Std suspension yes, that would be as funny as fek to watch all the crashing and tyres getting wrecked, again killing the sport off due to overheads

Well something's gotta change Shaun. Manufacturers, disti's and sponsors are hardly tripping over themselves to throw money at the sport. Most new potential racers are put off at the prospect of spending 60K+ PA on a niche sport with fuck all coverage in little old eNZed. The few racers that proceed are largely forced out by their credit card company after a year or two. Yes, motorcycle racing is expensive but it needn't be unnecessarily so. The fact that the pointy end of the field is largely comprised of dad's army speaks volumes.

1 x Mobile dyno + scales vs every rider spending stupid amounts every year. Hmmm...lets mull over that.

Std suspension...riders will adapt their style, conserve their tyres during racing and perhaps choose compounds that last a bit longer.

[Shaun Harris]

Well something's gotta change Shaun. Manufacturers, disti's and sponsors are hardly tripping over themselves to throw money at the sport. Most new potential racers are put off at the prospect of spending 60K+ PA on a niche sport with fuck all coverage in little old eNZed. The few racers that proceed are largely forced out by their credit card company after a year or two. Yes, motorcycle racing is expensive but it needn't be unnecessarily so. The fact that the pointy end of the field is largely comprised of dad's army speaks volumes.

1 x Mobile dyno + scales vs every rider spending stupid amounts every year. Hmmm...lets mull over that.

Std suspension...riders will adapt their style, conserve their tyres during racing and perhaps choose compounds that last a bit longer.





good reasoning man. Lets hang in there till Billy posts in the very near future re plans/idea's

[CHOPPA]

Well something's gotta change Shaun. Manufacturers, disti's and sponsors are hardly tripping over themselves to throw money at the sport. Most new potential racers are put off at the prospect of spending 60K+ PA on a niche sport with fuck all coverage in little old eNZed. The few racers that proceed are largely forced out by their credit card company after a year or two. Yes, motorcycle racing is expensive but it needn't be unnecessarily so. The fact that the pointy end of the field is largely comprised of dad's army speaks volumes.

1 x Mobile dyno + scales vs every rider spending stupid amounts every year. Hmmm...lets mull over that.

Std suspension...riders will adapt their style, conserve their tyres during racing and perhaps choose compounds that last a bit longer.

That sounds like BS to me.

I thought about requesting a rule change for a limit on tyres as this is what the most expensive part is but I figured thats not really a rule that would be more to do with supp regs??

[CHOPPA]

For 30k I could purchase a superbike race the entire winter series, win and then the entire national series and get top 10. If there was a limit on tyres I think possibly do even better than top 10 on that budget. The second season could be done for 15 - 20k.

[Shaun Harris]

That sounds like BS to me.

I thought about requesting a rule change for a limit on tyres as this is what the most expensive part is but I figured thats not really a rule that would be more to do with supp regs??





Rules mate, NOT sub regs! geta writing

[CHOPPA]

Rules mate, NOT sub regs! geta writing

Problem is I need to know the sup regs regarding amount of races and length of races before I can put together a realistic tyre limit proposal..

[Shaun Harris]

Problem is I need to know the sup regs regarding amount of races and length of races before I can put together a realistic tyre limit proposal..





base it on the amount of races for the current season, after all it is only an idea you would be putting forward to get discussion going on it. It would not guarantee the changes you suggest.

[Billy]

True that, forgot about being a cheating cheater

Okely Dokely...Now I'm confused!!!!

Who is...You...Me...Both

Or none of the above ????

[Billy]

Rules mate, NOT sub regs! geta writing


Problem is I need to know the sup regs regarding amount of races and length of races before I can put together a realistic tyre limit proposal..

Nope,It's definitely supp regs for the National series only.

[Shaun Harris]

Nope,It's definitely supp regs for the National series only.







Im good at being wrong eh, sorry chop

[malcy25]

as they will need to be discussed between myself and a group of people I have set up to consider whether they are to be displayed on the MNZ website as proposed changes.

Billy, given that MNZ is a democratic organisation, why do we have this step?

I could imagine this step for removal of duplicates etc, but shouldn't the voting public (ie the members, who JT has told me numerous times now ARE MNZ) get to see these, good and bad? One may be a bad suggestion as it stands, but it may go from sow's ear to silk purse with thought from someone else. The sort of process that the MNZ conference used to provide.

Serious question, not taking the piss or trying to be sarcastic or pointed.

[gammaguy]

Oh yeah.....Like 250 Production only bigger,Where will we get all the personel to catch the cheats????

as if that would happen...

[Billy]

Billy, given that MNZ is a democratic organisation, why do we have this step?

I could imagine this step for removal of duplicates etc, but shouldn't the voting public (ie the members, who JT has told me numerous times now ARE MNZ) get to see these, good and bad? One may be a bad suggestion as it stands, but it may go from sow's ear to silk purse with thought from someone else. The sort of process that the MNZ conference used to provide.

Serious question, not taking the piss or trying to be sarcastic or pointed.

Good question,

That is how it was operating when I took over and I have continued on as it was,In most cases,They do just go straight up on the website for submissions from the members,But there are times when if I'm not sure or I have a conflict of interest,I will move it on for others for advice,Very seldom do they not go straight up,The only reason I have pushed this a bit earlier this year is because the date for having them on the website coincides with the last 2 rounds of NZSBK and it was a bit of a scramble last year and some folks missed out because they hadn't been aware of the deadlines,This year I have been more proactive with getting it out there AND in particular to those that missed out last year.

A good example of this is,This year I have a club from the South Island who want to make some changes to both Classic and Post classics,But I will run these past two relevant associations first.Hope this clears it up in some way for you.

[suzuki21]

Dyno run means nothing anyway,Unless as youve stated it's done right there and then AND under the supervision of the Steward and Clerk of Course,You like myself and MANY others know how easy it is to lose power on a fuel injected machine given 10 minutes alone,A zero or rich map will take of a good percentage or even a lump of rag over the air intake

An Australian Superbike after winning a race a few years back suddenly struggled to idle and put out a healthy 90hp. Hoorah for hidden map switches.

[Grumph]

Good question,

That is how it was operating when I took over and I have continued on as it was,In most cases,They do just go straight up on the website for submissions from the members,But there are times when if I'm not sure or I have a conflict of interest,I will move it on for others for advice,Very seldom do they not go straight up,The only reason I have pushed this a bit earlier this year is because the date for having them on the website coincides with the last 2 rounds of NZSBK and it was a bit of a scramble last year and some folks missed out because they hadn't been aware of the deadlines,This year I have been more proactive with getting it out there AND in particular to those that missed out last year.

A good example of this is,This year I have a club from the South Island who want to make some changes to both Classic and Post classics,But I will run these past two relevant associations first.Hope this clears it up in some way for you.

No in some ways it makes it even murkier....there is no reason in my view to do what you are suggesting. Do you run any changes to the Nat regs past every club which runs a round ? Neither of the two associations you refer to are national ones despite their titles... Put the suggested changes up on the website for comment and modification AS RECEIVED and get the reaction direct from the people concerned.
If you also want to put up any official comment from the clubs concerned, fine it will tell the members what their voted in committee think.

[budda]

Good question,

That is how it was operating when I took over and I have continued on as it was,In most cases,They do just go straight up on the website for submissions from the members,But there are times when if I'm not sure or I have a conflict of interest,I will move it on for others for advice,Very seldom do they not go straight up

That is how it was set up when I received the poisoned chalice too, has been the established procedure for YEARS now ........

Just make sure your "suggestions" are FULLY thought through, and are applicable for the whole country, not just a small self-interest group in your particular corner of it ....... as Billy will attest, sometimes what IS a good idea locally is a clusterhoohah when applied Nationally:niceone:

[jasonu]

For 30k I could purchase a superbike race the entire winter series, win and then the entire national series and get top 10. If there was a limit on tyres I think possibly do even better than top 10 on that budget. The second season could be done for 15 - 20k.

$45-$50k for 2 years in a sport that will likely take you nowhere sounds like a lot to me.
I spose it really depends on ones income and how much dosh/parts/charity one can muster from outside ones own bank account.

[Shaun Harris]

$45-$50k for 2 years in a sport that will likely take you nowhere sounds like a lot to me.
I spose it really depends on ones income and how much dosh/parts/charity one can muster from outside ones own bank account.





Thats the reallity jasonu, and a cheap budget at that. I spent $45-000 one year supporting 4 bikes and rider here, + the money that folk on here donated to support Jason Mcewan

[Billy]

That is how it was set up when I received the poisoned chalice too, has been the established procedure for YEARS now ........

Just make sure your "suggestions" are FULLY thought through, and are applicable for the whole country, not just a small self-interest group in your particular corner of it ....... as Billy will attest, sometimes what IS a good idea locally is a clusterhoohah when applied Nationally:niceone:

In a nutshell sir,But then you have actually held the position and not just sat on the sidelines throwing stones for 30 years.

Experience shows that within this sport,The more people involved in the decision making process,The less likely issues will ever get resolved,I would suggest thats why the commission was set up in the first place,I'm sure choppa can attest to the discussion surrounding his suggestion of a cap on tyres for Superbikes for NZSBK 2014,It just turned into a farce and some of those contributing didn't actually appear to know what they wanted.

[Shaun Harris]

In a nutshell sir,But then you have actually held the position and not just sat on the sidelines throwing stones for 30 years.

Experience shows that within this sport,The more people involved in the decision making process,The less likely issues will ever get resolved,I would suggest thats why the commission was set up in the first place,I'm sure choppa can attest to the discussion surrounding his suggestion of a cap on tyres for Superbikes for NZSBK 2014,It just turned into a farce and some of those contributing didn't actually appear to know what they wanted.




Once again, this was why I sent my idea/proposal out to every single registered MNZ Road race licence holder a few years ago. I still believe that concept is the way forward, even more so now with the way the economy turned. It would just be a matter of finding a person with huge passion and commitment for our sport to make it happen. And then we would have a semi proffessional sport operating, some thing similar to Terry and the FX series is proving to be. He has made it happen through passion and commitment.

[budda]

Once again, this was why I sent my idea/proposal out to every single registered MNZ Road race licence holder a few years ago. I still believe that concept is the way forward, even more so now with the way the economy turned. It would just be a matter of finding a person with huge passion and commitment for our sport to make it happen. And then we would have a semi proffessional sport operating, some thing similar to Terry and the FX series is proving to be. He has made it happen through passion and commitment.

........... among other things

[Shaun Harris]

........... among other things






True, but the future has to start some where

[budda]

True, but the future has to start some where

Now THATS deep !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Shaun Harris]

Does banning NO HELMET ride around laps come under rule changes? or at least change it so that NO passengers get to go for a joy ride, it is potentually so dangerous and damaging to road racing if shit did ever happen, and ACCIDENTS do happen!

[Billy]

Does banning NO HELMET ride around laps come under rule changes? or at least change it so that NO passengers get to go for a joy ride, it is potentually so dangerous and damaging to road racing if shit did ever happen, and ACCIDENTS do happen!

There is a "wee" inquiry going today on that very subject:brick:

[codgyoleracer]

For 30k I could purchase a superbike race the entire winter series, win and then the entire national series and get top 10. If there was a limit on tyres I think possibly do even better than top 10 on that budget. The second season could be done for 15 - 20k.

For 35K you could finish 9th, For 40K you could finish 8th, For 45K you could finish 7th, For 50K you could finish 6th, For 55K you could finish............... Get the idea ?

Of course this all assumes that the organic component has the skills to use said investment

[Billy]

True, but the future has to start some where

Hows about this then for a start,

What say some of these selfconfessed experts purporting to be inducting juniors into roadracing,A/ actually read and understand the relevant rules themselves,But more importantly ensure those they are "coaching" are well versed in them as well BEFORE they set them loose on the track as was applied at MCI when Peter Jones was operating their junior program.Peters program wasn't perfect,BUT it was a lot better than whats ocuring there now

Then we wouldn't have to disappoint them like I had to do to a 13year old this morning who was entered on his Aprilia 125 in the upcoming sound of thunder meeting,Can you guess who his mentor is?????,Its just not acceptable that these kids are being taught how to increase their pace WITHOUT being schooled in the areas that will prevent them from serious harm,A bit like handing a loaded gun to a 13yr old really.

[Shaun Harris]

There is a "wee" inquiry going today on that very subject:brick:




AWSOME, that would be all ACC and the PO_LICE would need to kill the sport in that area

[Shaun Harris]

Hows about this then for a start,

What say some of these selfconfessed experts purporting to be inducting juniors into roadracing,A/ actually read and understand the relevant rules themselves,But more importantly ensure those they are "coaching" are well versed in them as well BEFORE they set them loose on the track as was applied at MCI when Peter Jones was operating their junior program.Peters program wasn't perfect,BUT it was a lot better than whats ocuring there now

Then we wouldn't have to disappoint them like I had to do to a 13year old this morning who was entered on his Aprilia 125 in the upcoming sound of thunder meeting,Can you guess who his mentor is?????,Its just not acceptable that these kids are being taught how to increase their pace WITHOUT being schooled in the areas that will prevent them from serious harm,A bit like handing a loaded gun to a 13yr old really.




Unfotunately nothing is ever perfect Billy as you well know being at the coal face day in and out. Peter Jones did an exellent job with youngins I think ( And yes he is a very great friend) hence I donated all my used leathers to him and motorcycle club down there to get kids arses on bikes as safe as possible.

Re your comment on MENTORS, I am assuming of course that is a man that I have written you a letter about to get him banned from ever having to do anything with Motorcycle racing again. ( DO you have a copy of letter saved so I can forward it for the rule changes dept coming up) I am very serious about it Billy, people like this can wreck a riders future due to being big headed WANKERS) they are not needed nor wanted. I see a certain man is on here all the time day in day out, but never posts a thing- hello U:tugger:

All people obtaining a race licence in my thinking, should have to sit a LIVE basic safety test before there licence is approved, not based on rules for classes etc, but based on Knowing all the flags and what to do as well as the safety requirements for machines to be able to pass tech.

[budda]

There is a "wee" inquiry going today on that very subject:brick:

EXCELLENT - carry on, that man<_<

[Billy]

Unfotunately nothing is ever perfect Billy as you well know being at the coal face day in and out. Peter Jones did an exellent job with youngins I think ( And yes he is a very great friend) hence I donated all my used leathers to him and motorcycle club down there to get kids arses on bikes as safe as possible.

Re your comment on MENTORS, I am assuming of course that is a man that I have written you a letter about to get him banned from ever having to do anything with Motorcycle racing again. ( DO you have a copy of letter saved so I can forward it for the rule changes dept coming up) I am very serious about it Billy, people like this can wreck a riders future due to being big headed WANKERS) they are not needed nor wanted. I see a certain man is on here all the time day in day out, but never posts a thing- hello U:tugger:

All people obtaining a race licence in my thinking, should have to sit a LIVE basic safety test before there licence is approved, not based on rules for classes etc, but based on Knowing all the flags and what to do as well as the safety requirements for machines to be able to pass tech.

Yip,

Ive got a graduated licence system on file,But cannot implement it as there are not enough people I can trust to oversee it in ALL areas,Dan Ornsby would be excellent in Ch Ch,Glen W in Manawatu and the ART scheme in AK,Johnny or Damage in Timmers,But all other areas I have no faith in,The newly introduced 3 stamps in the past 12 months before competing at a national event or street race has shown up some serious areas of concern,At the moment.All new members are required to take a 25 question test,But as I don't see the results of these tests or even know if they actually take place,I cannot comment as to how that is working out and of course it doesnt cover those entering the sport through the 1 event system(Which I believe should be a lot more restrictive and only available to those who already have a record with MNZ).

As for the other subject,I will ring you tonight to discuss further

[codgyoleracer]

Yip,

Ive got a graduated licence system on file,But cannot implement it as there are not enough people I can trust to oversee it in ALL areas,Dan Ornsby would be excellent in Ch Ch,Glen W in Manawatu and the ART scheme in AK,Johnny or Damage in Timmers,But all other areas I have no faith in,The newly introduced 3 stamps in the past 12 months before competing at a national event or street race has shown up some serious areas of concern,At the moment.All new members are required to take a 25 question test,But as I don't see the results of these tests or even know if they actually take place,I cannot comment as to how that is working out and of course it doesnt cover those entering the sport through the 1 event system(Which I believe should be a lot more restrictive and only available to those who already have a record with MNZ).

As for the other subject,I will ring you tonight to discuss further


Geez, doesnt pay to retire - some bugger gives you a job ........, :-)
(happy to help)

[Shaun Harris]

[QUOTE=Billy;1130679590]Yip,

the 1 event system(Which I believe should be a lot more restrictive and only available to those who already have a record with MNZ).







I totally agree re the 1 event licence Billy, sorry for some to say ( Mainly the clubs needing the funds)

[budda]

[QUOTE=Billy;1130679590]Yip,

the 1 event system(Which I believe should be a lot more restrictive and only available to those who already have a record with MNZ).







I totally agree re the 1 event licence Billy, sorry for some to say ( Mainly the clubs needing the funds)

HOLY CRAP !!!!!!!!! - that's three times in as many years we've agreed Gremlin ( or IS it really you ? )

[Shaun Harris]

[QUOTE=Moto-Dynamix;1130679673]

HOLY CRAP !!!!!!!!! - that's three times in as many years we've agreed Gremlin ( or IS it really you ? )









haha man, it takes time for things to change, and I have!

[Triplenut]

Yip,

Ive got a graduated licence system on file,But cannot implement it as there are not enough people I can trust to oversee it in ALL areas,Dan Ornsby would be excellent in Ch Ch,Glen W in Manawatu and the ART scheme in AK,Johnny or Damage in Timmers,But all other areas I have no faith in,The newly introduced 3 stamps in the past 12 months before competing at a national event or street race has shown up some serious areas of concern,At the moment.All new members are required to take a 25 question test,But as I don't see the results of these tests or even know if they actually take place,I cannot comment as to how that is working out and of course it doesnt cover those entering the sport through the 1 event system(Which I believe should be a lot more restrictive and only available to those who already have a record with MNZ).

As for the other subject,I will ring you tonight to discuss further

Billy as a compromise for the current flawed day license system, what about requiring ALL riders to have a log book including Day license riders. Details of meetings, rider conduct, injuries etc could then be recorded.
Its not a magic bullet but would be an improvement and reasonable compromise... small steps and all that.
While our club doesn't like days licenses we find up to 25% of entries at some meetings are just that.
Many are experienced riders who simply find the cost of a full license prohibitive or are semi retied doing only a handful of meetings per year.

[Henk]

We get through a load of day licences, some of it is regulars who have either left theirs behind and some are semi regulars who don't want to comit or don't want to stump up the lump sum.
There are however a lot of folk trying racing for the first time.
We can probably get away with this though as we can give them the track to themselves for a bit since it's only buckets.
I'd hate to see the way things are change.

[Shaun Harris]

Billy as a compromise for the current flawed day license system, what about requiring ALL riders to have a log book including Day license riders. Details of meetings, rider conduct, injuries etc could then be recorded.
Its not a magic bullet but would be an improvement and reasonable compromise... small steps and all that.
While our club doesn't like days licenses we find up to 25% of entries at some meetings are just that.
Many are experienced riders who simply find the cost of a full license prohibitive or are semi retied doing only a handful of meetings per year.








I am not Billy obviously, I do see the good logic in that one mate. Good to see productive ideas instead of the other

[Kickaha]

Re your comment on MENTORS, I am assuming of course that is a man that I have written you a letter about to get him banned from ever having to do anything with Motorcycle racing again. ( DO you have a copy of letter saved so I can forward it for the rule changes dept coming up) I am very serious about it Billy, people like this can wreck a riders future due to being big headed WANKERS) they are not needed nor wanted. I see a certain man is on here all the time day in day out, but never posts a thing- hello U:tugger:


What the fuck has any of that got to do with you? you sound just as much a big headed wanker as the guy you're slagging off and If someone wants to spend all their time on here and never post that's their choice

[Robert Taylor]

Stock Superbikes and 600s, right down to the chains............... :corn:

Yes as I recall that dodgy aftermarket shock you fitted ( land of milk and honey so everyone is told ) gave you some expensive tyre shredding issues for more than a few sleeps..........................

[Robert Taylor]

Well something's gotta change Shaun. Manufacturers, disti's and sponsors are hardly tripping over themselves to throw money at the sport. Most new potential racers are put off at the prospect of spending 60K+ PA on a niche sport with fuck all coverage in little old eNZed. The few racers that proceed are largely forced out by their credit card company after a year or two. Yes, motorcycle racing is expensive but it needn't be unnecessarily so. The fact that the pointy end of the field is largely comprised of dad's army speaks volumes.

1 x Mobile dyno + scales vs every rider spending stupid amounts every year. Hmmm...lets mull over that.

Std suspension...riders will adapt their style, conserve their tyres during racing and perhaps choose compounds that last a bit longer.

Maybe we are scaring away those that want to spend money by dumbing it down too much? Why is it that huge money is spent in car racing, as a basis of comparison?

There are two sides to an argument. No intention to get into an infamous Kiwi Bleater catfight, just stating a different train of thought.

[Shaun Harris]

What the fuck has any of that got to do with you? you sound just as much a big headed wanker as the guy you're slagging off and If someone wants to spend all their time on here and never post that's their choice





same as what your post has do with anything kick, just an opinion whether it be constructive or just idle crap, I am a wanker by the way, and enjoy doing it still




Thanks for the PM Wayne but as replied squire

[Robert Taylor]

AWSOME, that would be all ACC and the PO_LICE would need to kill the sport in that area

Paeroa will doubtless do that one day, I just pray the carnage and spectator kill count will be minimal

[Shaun Harris]

Maybe we are scaring away those that want to spend money by dumbing it down too much? Why is it that huge money is spent in car racing, as a basis of comparison?

There are two sides to an argument. No intention to get into an infamous Kiwi Bleater catfight, just stating a different train of thought.









No TV exsposure marketing keeps the money away for a start Robert, so dumbing it down ( as you say) to try and keep the grids fullish is perhaps not a bad way to go for now untill marketing off the sport is lifted better to justify any ROI. I agree pure race suspension is the best but but but

[codgyoleracer]

Yes as I recall that dodgy aftermarket shock you fitted ( land of milk and honey so everyone is told ) gave you some expensive tyre shredding issues for more than a few sleeps..........................

Ktech gave more grip than this ginga could use :-)

[scracha]

Maybe we are scaring away those that want to spend money by dumbing it down too much? Why is it that huge money is spent in car racing, as a basis of comparison?

There are two sides to an argument. No intention to get into an infamous Kiwi Bleater catfight, just stating a different train of thought.

Robert, I'm NOT advocating making every class production. Car racing has a far bigger user base and audience that attracts far more sponsors and it's disingenuous to imply that every car racing class costs megabucks. For sure, there's a fair few folks who want to spend stupid amounts of money racing. However, do we really need more than one "premier" class in our little country? It sounds spastic but does the "premier" class have to be the class that requires the most money? There's always BEARS and post classics for people that want to piss money away :drool: Your average weekend warrior hasn't got 30K to spend on a hobby that as Chopper puts it, might get them 10th place. Your potential next young Kiwi motorcycling superstar may decide on the balance of things, that motorcycle racing isn't worth their parents remortgaging their house. I suspect many MNZ weekend warrior members are a bit frustrated at the current situation.

[Shaun Harris]

Robert, I'm NOT advocating making every class production. Car racing has a far bigger user base and audience that attracts far more sponsors and it's disingenuous to imply that every car racing class costs megabucks. For sure, there's a fair few folks who want to spend stupid amounts of money racing. However, do we really need more than one "premier" class in our little country? It sounds spastic but does the "premier" class have to be the class that requires the most money? There's always BEARS and post classics for people that want to piss money away :drool: Your average weekend warrior hasn't got 30K to spend on a hobby that as Chopper puts it, might get them 10th place. Your potential next young Kiwi motorcycling superstar may decide on the balance of things, that motorcycle racing isn't worth their parents remortgaging their house. I suspect many MNZ weekend warrior members are a bit frustrated at the current situation.








funny scracha, your comments here make me take the comments from Codgeoldracer a little more seriously than I think he really intended?

[FROSTY]

Well something's gotta change Shaun. Manufacturers, disti's and sponsors are hardly tripping over themselves to throw money at the sport. Most new potential racers are put off at the prospect of spending 60K+ PA on a niche sport with fuck all coverage in little old eNZed. The few racers that proceed are largely forced out by their credit card company after a year or two. Yes, motorcycle racing is expensive but it needn't be unnecessarily so. The fact that the pointy end of the field is largely comprised of dad's army speaks volumes.
1 x Mobile dyno + scales vs every rider spending stupid amounts every year. Hmmm...lets mull over that.
Std suspension...riders will adapt their style, conserve their tyres during racing and perhaps choose compounds that last a bit longer.
Mate I get where you are coming from--but reality is that unless our sport can stir the imagination of the masses then it always will be a niche sport.

[Robert Taylor]

Indeed, all fair points that Scracha made but the core point of my argument is that perhaps, just perhaps we are scaring away a number of people that have the capacity to spend lots of money.
A fair bit of this ''cheap at all costs'' mentality is evident in car racing, right through to the two premier classes. The number of core components that have need to be upgraded in V8s ( notably brakes ) is substanial. Then there was the debacle with shock absorbers in the Toyota racing series a few years back.
Cheapness often costs.

[scrivy]

Pfftttt...... bring in wooden 4x2's for shocks, use the hardest compound Ching Shin tyres, and drum brakes for all, as far as I care.

I don't go to watch a premier class racing, I go to watch dicing in any class. If money talks for some, then ultimately the chances of competitive racing become slimmer - not greater. It's called chequebook racing - and does not lead to fuller grids in motorcycle circles. I mean, if I had to spend 30K to get 10th, I'd rather have a world holiday with my kids quite frankly. Or if you were Kick, that's alot of $2 hookers......

If racers back 80 years ago could race on dirt/gravel etc on skinny tyres, with far inferior equipment to what we have nowadays, and still entertain the crowds, then why do we have to be primadonnas to do the same??
Seriously, do spectators know (or care) about how much is spent in what class?
Does the average punter know how much is spent on a V8 supercar?

Spectators are voting with their feet apparently....

I'd go and watch lawnmower or motorised chillybin racing if it was competitive.....:woohoo:

:corn:

[Billy]

Pfftttt...... bring in wooden 4x2's for shocks, use the hardest compound Ching Shin tyres, and drum brakes for all, as far as I care.

I don't go to watch a premier class racing, I go to watch dicing in any class. If money talks for some, then ultimately the chances of competitive racing become slimmer - not greater. It's called chequebook racing - and does not lead to fuller grids in motorcycle circles. I mean, if I had to spend 30K to get 10th, I'd rather have a world holiday with my kids quite frankly. Or if you were Kick, that's alot of $2 hookers......

If racers back 80 years ago could race on dirt/gravel etc on skinny tyres, with far inferior equipment to what we have nowadays, and still entertain the crowds, then why do we have to be primadonnas to do the same??
Seriously, do spectators know (or care) about how much is spent in what class?
Does the average punter know how much is spent on a V8 supercar?

Spectators are voting with their feet apparently....

I'd go and watch lawnmower or motorised chillybin racing if it was competitive.....:woohoo:

:corn:

While its only MY opinion and is not necessarily what will happen,

I fully agree with Scrivy on this and before we have to endure more propaganda surrounding crowd attendance,Or lack there of,Who would have thought Paeroa would be down on attendees,I mean there was only the league 9s,Eminem concert and lantern festival going on in AK this weekend,But that wouldn't affect it at all aye? Furthermore,Following the GP at Ruapuna earlier this year,It was discovered the gate take was down around 40%,Further investigation uncovered that the speedway and horse race meetings were suffering similar drops in attendance,So I guess its not just a motorsport thing either.

What really grates my gears are the people that post on these threads who either lack the ability or confidence to compete at National level and yet they expect the general public to rush along to watch 6-8 bikes waddle around on a mostly empty track,Why would they?What happened to the old Kiwi "Give it a go" attitude? Point is,You can make the classes whatever you want,But if theres limited competitors,Then theres not much to get the interest of the general public...Is there


There has to be a burger in the box(Fur,Chicken or otherwise) and at the moment ours appears to have little filling,Its the same old people turning up year in AND you don't see them complaining on these websites,Best attitude I have encountered is John Ross,His attitude is "I don't care where,when or what we race,Somebody has to win and I want to be that person" Until more of the whingers have that same approach and expect everything to arranged in a way that somehow allows them to be competitive,Things are not going to improve.

[budda]

While its only MY opinion and is not necessarily what will happen,

I fully agree with Scrivy on this and before we have to endure more propaganda surrounding crowd attendance,Or lack there of,Who would have thought Paeroa would be down on attendees,I mean there was only the league 9s,Eminem concert and lantern festival going on in AK this weekend,But that wouldn't affect it at all aye? Furthermore,Following the GP at Ruapuna earlier this year,It was discovered the gate take was down around 40%,Further investigation uncovered that the speedway and horse race meetings were suffering similar drops in attendance,So I guess its not just a motorsport thing either.

What really grates my gears are the people that post on these threads who either lack the ability or confidence to compete at National level and yet they expect the general public to rush along to watch 6-8 bikes waddle around on a mostly empty track,Why would they?What happened to the old Kiwi "Give it a go" attitude? Point is,You can make the classes whatever you want,But if theres limited competitors,Then theres not much to get the interest of the general public...Is there


There has to be a burger in the box(Fur,Chicken or otherwise) and at the moment ours appears to have little filling,Its the same old people turning up year in AND you don't see them complaining on these websites,Best attitude I have encountered is John Ross,His attitude is "I don't care where,when or what we race,Somebody has to win and I want to be that person" Until more of the whingers have that same approach and expect everything to arranged in a way that somehow allows them to be competitive,Things are not going to improve.

WHAT HE SAID .......... ( think a wise man I met once said exactly the same thing - MANY times )

And further to that, the only reason the "dinosaurs" are still leading the charge is that the young "guns" cant beat 'em !

[scrivy]

I fully agree with Scrivy on this
Heh heh heh.... finally got that in writing...... LOL!:cool::lol:


There has to be a burger in the box
Where does one buy a fur burger from?? Possibly KFC ? as you do get greasy fingers, and have breast or leg to choose from....


:rolleyes::whistle:

[scrivy]

WHAT HE SAID .......... ( think a wise man I met once said exactly the same thing - MANY times )
Yip... that was me....... :whistle::shifty:

And further to that, the only reason the "dinosaurs" are still leading the charge is that the young "guns" cant beat 'em !

True dat! :first:

[The Chow]

WHAT HE SAID .......... ( think a wise man I met once said exactly the same thing - MANY times )

And further to that, the only reason the "dinosaurs" are still leading the charge is that the young "guns" cant beat 'em !

Well said oh great Budda . Fuck falling crowd attendance , take a quick look around the Globe , Silverstone WSBK last year was a joke , they didn't have access to all the stands , and made people who had all stand passes sit in the ones that were open , so it would appear at least someone was at the meeting. It isn't unique and has been discussed for ever and ever and fucking ever. Get use to it , the sport is a nothing world wide with the possible exception of a few notable events. It's ok , we are just a minority sport like any other. And is the sport we all love to be associated with (at times it is hard , but we still keep coming back). Classes it wouldn't matter what you had , it is a sport that costs end of story. My opinion stop the dumbing down and restrictions and throw it open , get back to where guys can build and race what ever they like with the old F1/F2/F3 principals. Only restriction capacity.

[budda]

Well said oh great Budda . Fuck falling crowd attendance , take a quick look around the Globe , Silverstone WSBK last year was a joke , they didn't have access to all the stands , and made people who had all stand passes sit in the ones that were open , so it would appear at least someone was at the meeting. It isn't unique and has been discussed for ever and ever and fucking ever. Get use to it , the sport is a nothing world wide with the possible exception of a few notable events. It's ok , we are just a minority sport like any other. And is the sport we all love to be associated with (at times it is hard , but we still keep coming back). Classes it wouldn't matter what you had , it is a sport that costs end of story. My opinion stop the dumbing down and restrictions and throw it open , get back to where guys can build and race what ever they like with the old F1/F2/F3 principals. Only restriction capacity.

STOP MAKING SENSE CHOW - didn't the bar tab from the Brentwood teach you ANYTHING man !!!!!
The very fact that our Commission even DISCUSSED that makes it wrong - get with the programme

[Billy]

STOP MAKING SENSE CHOW - didn't the bar tab from the Brentwood teach you ANYTHING man !!!!!
The very fact that our Commission even DISCUSSED that makes it wrong - get with the programme

Hmmmm,The Brentwood,Whats ya room number,I'm there Friday night and can add to it for ya haha

[Billy]

Where does one buy a fur burger from?? Possibly KFC ? as you do get greasy fingers, and have breast or leg to choose from....


:rolleyes::whistle:

Yip KFC will definitely get you a hairy chicken burger

[budda]

Hmmmm,The Brentwood,Whats ya room number,I'm there Friday night and can add to it for ya haha

You'll be able to follow the "room-service groove" in the carpet - used the pseudonym "Maarty" from memory

[Dave-]

Spelling and grammar.



22.8.16 a.
When the riders have lined up on the grid they are deemed to be under the
starters control at the instant the RED FLAG reaches the side of the track.
Any motorcycle that moves in a forward motion whilst under the starters
control shall be deemed a jump start

Firstly I think this rule means "starter's control" as in the starter is in ownership of control. The way this rule current reads is there are many starters and something about control, the sentence is actually wrong.

Assuming you're clever enough to work this out (or dumb enough to not know the difference) if you take the literal meaning of this rule, then you are only under the [starter's] control for the instant that the flag is at the side of the track, while the flag is off the track, in the middle of the track, above the track, below the track or travelling though India is not stipulated.

[Grumph]

i think we've found a volunteer to proof read the next edition of the rulebook......

[budda]

Spelling and grammar.



Firstly I think this rule means "starter's control" as in the starter is in ownership of control. The way this rule current reads is there are many starters and something about control, the sentence is actually wrong.

Assuming you're clever enough to work this out (or dumb enough to not know the difference) if you take the literal meaning of this rule, then you are only under the [starter's] control for the instant that the flag is at the side of the track, while the flag is off the track, in the middle of the track, above the track, below the track or travelling though India is not stipulated.

Commission Code : F.F.S.W.A.K.P

[budda]

i think we've found a volunteer to proof read the next edition of the rulebook......

Already got his hand up to be the next Commissioner if memory serves me correctly ...........:facepalm:

[Dave-]

i think we've found a volunteer to proof read the next edition of the rulebook......

I already offered to proof read all new rules (including the last set) then to work my way through the whole document.

I'm still waiting to hear back from the Party Planning Committee Alliance of Magicians [strike]E.Q.C[strike] some rule making committee which was a sub committee of a sub committee.

But seriously I've got another year of university then I'm pretty interested in actually taking on a role in MNZ at that time. It was then that I intend to push home with the typos, spelling and grammar. If we could get the 2014 rules proof read that would be awesome, as someone who writes 50-100 reports a year I understand how things like starters and starter's can be overlooked which is why I'm offering.

I'll put my proposal here through the proper channels as Billy prefers in a more formal manner.

I just want to say I think MNZ do a spectacular job of organisation and I know Billy deals with a lot of stress, the guy is like a guitar string on caffeine. Hard working, I like that.


Commission Code : F.F.S.W.A.K.P

Just spotted this, can you clarify?

Some guesses

For Fuck Sake Walk A Kangaroo Pal?
Find Fred's Sandwich With Any King's Poodle
Forward Folding Stairs Which Almost Kart People
Frank Field Sits Watching A Kakapo Poo


Also this website was fun:
http://acromaker.com/FFSWAKP

[Robert Taylor]

At no time did I mention an emotive term ''chequebook racing''. But I do genuinely feel that from certain circles that there are vibes that those who want a more professional image ( which does inevitably entail more cost ) are not so welcome.

Until that mentality becomes less than mainstream the sport will continue to be at the level that it is. There are plenty of sporting codes all vying for the same finite sponsorship dollars and by nature sponsors will go where there is the best coverage and return. Clearly its not NZ road racing with all of its inbuilt prejudices and mindsets.

Distributors are not so keen to inject money at previous levels because often they are getting ripped by those who think its their right to not be respectful that there are limits and that the true ownership of parts etc ( that often get sold off for cash etc ) belongs to the distributor. Dont challenge me on that. I know who has ripped who in past years and its not pretty.

[Grumph]

Already got his hand up to be the next Commissioner if memory serves me correctly ...........:facepalm:

Ah, yes, sorry i gave an opening......

Robert, I'd point out that robbing sponsors has a very long history - i can quote you examples going back to the 50's. in some cases it made the difference between eating or not....And in the main the distributors wore it as most realised what the circumstances were.

Since the 80's though I'd suggest that profit margins have got smaller - and yes, it has had to be tightened up. Doesn't excuse it i know but it does go some way to explaining it. I've been ripped off myself as have various people and businesses I've partnered with - which is one reason I'm a poor old cunt...

As I see it, we've got pretty good support at grass roots level still, but the jump to riding at National level is seen as being too big or expensive....and i'm fucked if I see an easy answer.

[scracha]

Lotta the old geezers on here spout on about not dumbing down racing and then in the next breath spout on about the good old proddy racing days.



Just sayin ....

[GD66]

Well said oh great Budda . Fuck falling crowd attendance

Get used to it , the sport is a nothing world wide with the possible exception of a few notable events.

My opinion stop the dumbing down and restrictions and throw it open , get back to where guys can build and race what ever they like .... Only restriction capacity.


Good call, Ian !



It wasn't always a nothing, even in NZ...:woohoo:

http://imageshack.com/a/img36/4038/k5a5.jpg

[Henk]

Ah yes the good old days.
Back when motorcycles were primarily a form of transport and not a hobby and therefore joe average punter was more likely to have at least some exposure to them in the first place.

[suzuki21]

While its only MY opinion and is not necessarily what will happen,

I fully agree with Scrivy on this and before we have to endure more propaganda surrounding crowd attendance,Or lack there of,Who would have thought Paeroa would be down on attendees,I mean there was only the league 9s,Eminem concert and lantern festival going on in AK this weekend,But that wouldn't affect it at all aye? Furthermore,Following the GP at Ruapuna earlier this year,It was discovered the gate take was down around 40%,Further investigation uncovered that the speedway and horse race meetings were suffering similar drops in attendance,So I guess its not just a motorsport thing either.

What really grates my gears are the people that post on these threads who either lack the ability or confidence to compete at National level and yet they expect the general public to rush along to watch 6-8 bikes waddle around on a mostly empty track,Why would they?What happened to the old Kiwi "Give it a go" attitude? Point is,You can make the classes whatever you want,But if theres limited competitors,Then theres not much to get the interest of the general public...Is there


There has to be a burger in the box(Fur,Chicken or otherwise) and at the moment ours appears to have little filling,Its the same old people turning up year in AND you don't see them complaining on these websites,Best attitude I have encountered is John Ross,His attitude is "I don't care where,when or what we race,Somebody has to win and I want to be that person" Until more of the whingers have that same approach and expect everything to arranged in a way that somehow allows them to be competitive,Things are not going to improve.

Well said Billy. I am a racing enthusiast as you know, but I cant be bothered going to watch 3 bikes with big gaps between them and another 5 bikes riding around. Who would have thought Paeroa would be down on attendance? Um, me. Why would people drive for a couple of hours to watch what in essence is now a club meeting with dodgy safety, and lasts half a day. Racing has gone past the point where manufacturers have wads of money, and people can finance to buy a ride. Racing needs to be affordable. Sloan mentioned he could do the nationals for 30k, well sorry chop but if you can do it for that you either stole a bike, have really bad accountancy skills, or cant be paying bills.

[Shaun Harris]

At no time did I mention an emotive term ''chequebook racing''. But I do genuinely feel that from certain circles that there are vibes that those who want a more professional image ( which does inevitably entail more cost ) are not so welcome.

Until that mentality becomes less than mainstream the sport will continue to be at the level that it is. There are plenty of sporting codes all vying for the same finite sponsorship dollars and by nature sponsors will go where there is the best coverage and return. Clearly its not NZ road racing with all of its inbuilt prejudices and mindsets.

Distributors are not so keen to inject money at previous levels because often they are getting ripped by those who think its their right to not be respectful that there are limits and that the true ownership of parts etc ( that often get sold off for cash etc ) belongs to the distributor. Dont challenge me on that. I know who has ripped who in past years and its not pretty.



Welcome Welcome Welcome mate.

You need to be currently making money to continue spending money on marketing (racing)? or have a brilliant biz plan written up and detailed that displays the plans path to achieve this luxury to justify doing it.


When power went out in Auckland City for bit, Portable generators were transported in and placed to power all back up again, so the spuds got cooked. 1980 Generators/suspenion/electronics/tyres/ ERROL conigan or how ever it is spealt? bla bla were crap compared to today but it worked!
OK yes lots have changed " but again '' It worked.

Our current racing programme and rules work, finance involved does not simply so some thing needs (DD-Your dam words haha) and I am really looking forward to reading Choppa;s tyre allocation limit plan for SB and HOT RODDED 600z) - IF ( Shocking word) you also raced on STANDARD suspension apart from oil level - amount -weight and springs and spacers- ( just idea's) a 12 month budget is a heck of lot more entertaining. Now brake the $ amount down to a daily SAVING per x 365 days is not a bad figure and is more managable to stretch your poorly apprentise or what ever wage down too due to other commitments.

600Z with full race exhausts and electrics ( ECU + LOOM) Motor work and cams and the above, FUCK ME ( Just had to) divided by x days = stupid stupid over heads in today's climate! We are not going to die, we just need to retrench for a bit to gather. SBKS are what they are, but do not NEED to be for a while ( IF ) ever to the current build spec costings.

A Cheaper game with the draw card of ours, WILL always be played more with boys with petrol in there veins that can stretch to it comfortably rather than adding the bull shit finance stress that comes with current enviroment.

You know and any one else on here that knows me also know's that I am a huge fan of the best equipment for racing and here is that word again ( BUT) No $ = No racing. Get back to basics in the trenches and re guide the mass to able to march forward and hey ho presto, there comes the technology introduction again as the show grows.

It needs time out from all ( or as many over heads ) as possible to re build and direct forward. YEP we could go into crashes from crap tyres and crap suspension etc , but you only need to go faster than the bike leading at the moment by 50mm to WIN ( Fuk the lap record) and you are all on the same basically and hugely cheaper.

Competition not technology not finance not contacts is where our sport comes from, how about a 3 year plan of pure PRODUCTIUON 600+1000zzz being just that? 2-3 years from now with some of the current young hot shots on these bikes as well as some older add ins ie club scene fun competitors- locals, and then re visit the rules along with the economy.

BASICS Welcome Welcome Welcome also I say to re build and grow!

Going for a ROOT now, Had rather a CONSTRUCTIVE day

[jellywrestler]

Going for a ROOT now, Had rather a CONSTRUCTIVE day careful out there, i think the thistles are at their worst this time of the year so don't step on any...

[Shaun Harris]

careful out there, i think the thistles are at their worst this time of the year so don't step on any...






haha just put the Gumboots on

[scracha]

haha just put the Gumboots on

Hope the sheep can outrun you then

[sharp2183]

Guys, I'm just a lowly club racer but I kinda see the point of stock only classes. I listen to this 'aftermarket suspension makes it safer/better' talk and I just keep thinking to myself:

If no one had it, then how would the sport be any worse? Better suspension simply extends the limits of the bike. Scale back the suspension level and the bike doesn't get more dangerous, it just gets more dangerous to go the speed you did before. The best riders will test those limits, and everyone would soon adjust to them. Look at the Hyosung guys in the Auckland comp. Would they go faster with purpose built Ohlins suspension? Yes, most likely. But would the racing be any better? Probably not, as the best would still win, but the field would be more spread out/thinner due to budget restrictions.


The other argument is that 'superbike/supersport is the (insert more appropriate word if you like) premier class in NZ, so it should be an expensive/high tech environment'. Now don't get me wrong, I have a huge amount of respect for the fast guys who have balls and skills I'll never have, but I cant help thinking that people lose sight that its not MotoGP/WSBK. Who cares if you are 1 or 2 seconds a lap slower than you were with 15 more HP and $6000 of ohlins suspension that needs a technician to adjust it every time someone looks at it? Id rather see (and participate) in close racing throughout the field, with more people competing because the costs are lower. And as a spectator, I couldn't give a flying fuck about the lap time itself, I just wanna know how much faster is than the person that comes second, and watch some good racing. That's what would make me pay an entry fee, or watch online (big ups to CTAS).

Racing is amazing fun, but when you are broke and struggling to make ends meet, is an extra second or 3 a lap really worth it? What if you could be financially stable AND know that your bike is competitive? Wow, the possibilities...

[CHOPPA]

Well said Billy. I am a racing enthusiast as you know, but I cant be bothered going to watch 3 bikes with big gaps between them and another 5 bikes riding around. Who would have thought Paeroa would be down on attendance? Um, me. Why would people drive for a couple of hours to watch what in essence is now a club meeting with dodgy safety, and lasts half a day. Racing has gone past the point where manufacturers have wads of money, and people can finance to buy a ride. Racing needs to be affordable. Sloan mentioned he could do the nationals for 30k, well sorry chop but if you can do it for that you either stole a bike, have really bad accountancy skills, or cant be paying bills.

Im saying I could get the results I listed on that budget and that includes buying a bike so essentially it could be done on 15-20k because a bike capable of getting those results could easily be purchased for 10-15k.

[chucklesby]

I flirted with racing a few years back, and while I loved it(with moderate success) , a few things ($$ included) killed it for me.

this debate of "stock" bikes come up every year it seems, and will allways come up.

I'd love to see a stock 600 class.
some ideas:

stock, even exhaust.
race fairing obviously
stock suspension
a basic braking upgrade, lines, pads etc if you choose.
if possible a control road based tyre !! (no need for wets too)

shorter races, 5 laps or something

yes, I know some responses, suspension/tyres/safety etc etc bla bla, but lets face it, racing motorcycles aint the safest pastime anyway.

and at the end of the day you ride to the conditions,just like if youre on race rubber in the damp
obviously the bike wont run the laptimes of a built 600 but like previous posts have said, its about the racing.

[jellywrestler]

Guys, I'm just a lowly club racer but I kinda see the point of stock only classes. I listen to this 'aftermarket suspension makes it safer/better' talk and I just keep thinking to myself:

If no one had it, then how would the sport be any worse? Better suspension simply extends the limits of the bike. Scale back the suspension level and the bike doesn't get more dangerous, it just gets more dangerous to go the speed you did before. The best riders will test those limits, and everyone would soon adjust to them. Look at the Hyosung guys in the Auckland comp. Would they go faster with purpose built Ohlins suspension? Yes, most likely. But would the racing be any better? Probably not, as the best would still win, but the field would be more spread out/thinner due to budget restrictions.


The other argument is that 'superbike/supersport is the (insert more appropriate word if you like) premier class in NZ, so it should be an expensive/high tech environment'. Now don't get me wrong, I have a huge amount of respect for the fast guys who have balls and skills I'll never have, but I cant help thinking that people lose sight that its not MotoGP/WSBK. Who cares if you are 1 or 2 seconds a lap slower than you were with 15 more HP and $6000 of ohlins suspension that needs a technician to adjust it every time someone looks at it? Id rather see (and participate) in close racing throughout the field, with more people competing because the costs are lower. And as a spectator, I couldn't give a flying fuck about the lap time itself, I just wanna know how much faster is than the person that comes second, and watch some good racing. That's what would make me pay an entry fee, or watch online (big ups to CTAS).

Racing is amazing fun, but when you are broke and struggling to make ends meet, is an extra second or 3 a lap really worth it? What if you could be financially stable AND know that your bike is competitive? Wow, the possibilities...
the first rule in a recession is don't make whats in front of you obsolete.
So please explain how you make a basically stock class what happens to all the current bikes out there now?????, do they spend big money bringing them back to standard, or do they thow them out and then who'll appear on the grids...

[sharp2183]

[QUOTE=sharp2183;1130680615]Guys, I'm just a lowly club racer but I kinda see the point of stock only classes. I listen to this 'aftermarket suspension makes it safer/better' talk and I just keep thinking to myself:

If no one had it, then how would the sport be any worse? Better suspension simply extends the limits of the bike. Scale back the suspension level and the bike doesn't get more dangerous, it just gets more dangerous to go the speed you did before. The best riders will test those limits, and everyone would soon adjust to them. Look at the Hyosung guys in the Auckland comp. Would they go faster with purpose built Ohlins suspension? Yes, most likely. But would the racing be any better? Probably not, as the best would still win, but the field would be more spread out/thinner due to budget restrictions.


The other argument is that 'superbike/supersport is the (insert more appropriate word if you like) premier class in NZ, so it should be an expensive/high tech environment'. Now don't get me wrong, I have a huge amount of respect for the fast guys who have balls and skills I'll never have, but I cant help thinking that people lose sight that its not MotoGP/WSBK. Who cares if you are 1 or 2 seconds a lap slower than you were with 15 more HP and $6000 of ohlins suspension that needs a technician to adjust it every time someone looks at it? Id rather see (and participate) in close racing throughout the field, with more people competing because the costs are lower. And as a spectator, I couldn't give a flying fuck about the lap time itself, I just wanna know how much faster is than the person that comes second, and watch some good racing. That's what would make me pay an entry fee, or watch online (big ups to CTAS).

Racing is amazing fun, but when you are broke and struggling to make ends meet, is an extra second or 3 a lap really worth it? What if you could be financially stable AND know that your bike is competitive? Wow, the possibilities...[/QUOTE the first rule in a recession is don't make whats in front of you obsolete.
So please explain how you make a basically stock class what happens to all the current bikes out there now?????, do they spend big money bringing them back to standard, or do they thow them out and then who'll appear on the grids...

Oh I agree entirely, and I don't have an answer really. Maybe scale back one thing per season? Start with the basic stuff like exhaust, and then suspension? Then sell the bits to track day riders or on Ebay. Or sell the whole bike and buy a stock one. Might come out losing not as much as you think...

[The Chow]

[QUOTE=sharp2183;1130680615]Guys, I'm just a lowly club racer but I kinda see the point of stock only classes. I listen to this 'aftermarket suspension makes it safer/better' talk and I just keep thinking to myself:

If no one had it, then how would the sport be any worse? Better suspension simply extends the limits of the bike. Scale back the suspension level and the bike doesn't get more dangerous, it just gets more dangerous to go the speed you did before. The best riders will test those limits, and everyone would soon adjust to them. Look at the Hyosung guys in the Auckland comp. Would they go faster with purpose built Ohlins suspension? Yes, most likely. But would the racing be any better? Probably not, as the best would still win, but the field would be more spread out/thinner due to budget restrictions.


The other argument is that 'superbike/supersport is the (insert more appropriate word if you like) premier class in NZ, so it should be an expensive/high tech environment'. Now don't get me wrong, I have a huge amount of respect for the fast guys who have balls and skills I'll never have, but I cant help thinking that people lose sight that its not MotoGP/WSBK. Who cares if you are 1 or 2 seconds a lap slower than you were with 15 more HP and $6000 of ohlins suspension that needs a technician to adjust it every time someone looks at it? Id rather see (and participate) in close racing throughout the field, with more people competing because the costs are lower. And as a spectator, I couldn't give a flying fuck about the lap time itself, I just wanna know how much faster is than the person that comes second, and watch some good racing. That's what would make me pay an entry fee, or watch online (big ups to CTAS).

Racing is amazing fun, but when you are broke and struggling to make ends meet, is an extra second or 3 a lap really worth it? What if you could be financially stable AND know that your bike is competitive? Wow, the possibilities...[/QUOTE the first rule in a recession is don't make whats in front of you obsolete.
So please explain how you make a basically stock class what happens to all the current bikes out there now?????, do they spend big money bringing them back to standard, or do they thow them out and then who'll appear on the grids...

Thank you Jelly , I was thinking (as I'm sure many were) what do we do with all the bikes we have now. Also It is strange that we haven't heard from the guys and gals that are actually racing now. If we have no money please tell me how come there are over 20 Supersport bikes on the national grid (most of which are not distributor bikes) and at least 15-20 Superbikes on grid (Most of which are not the latest model , but rebuilt older models , meaning they are getting more than one year out of the basic bike) and it has been this way since the MNZ changed the rules. If there is no money to go racing in your bank account (then fine don't go racing) , If there is little money , don't spend it where it isn't needed on Go Pro Cameras , Folding Brakes Levers etc. Those things alone would at least be better spend going towards your a tyres (which you need) or something that you really need. The sport is expensive over my years in this sport I have been a sponsor of many and I have also been shafted by many , BUT I keep coming back ( I must be simple alright), let the market dictate , at the moment people are racing and in good numbers at a National Level in the two biggest (Capacity) classes , don't fuck with that , at a Club level (and cheaper classes) is where the problem with numbers appear to be ( I know perhaps not everywhere).

[jellywrestler]

Going for a ROOT now,


and I have also been shafted


are you two getting cuddly now???

[budda]

[QUOTE=jellywrestler;1130680762]

Thank you Jelly , I was thinking (as I'm sure many were) what do we do with all the bikes we have now. Also It is strange that we haven't heard from the guys and gals that are actually racing now. If we have no money please tell me how come there are over 20 Supersport bikes on the national grid (most of which are not distributor bikes) and at least 15-20 Superbikes on grid (Most of which are not the latest model , but rebuilt older models , meaning they are getting more than one year out of the basic bike) and it has been this way since the MNZ changed the rules. If there is no money to go racing in your bank account (then fine don't go racing) , If there is little money , don't spend it where it isn't needed on Go Pro Cameras , Folding Brakes Levers etc. Those things alone would at least be better spend going towards your a tyres (which you need) or something that you really need. The sport is expensive over my years in this sport I have been a sponsor of many and I have also been shafted by many , BUT I keep coming back ( I must be simple alright), let the market dictate , at the moment people are racing and in good numbers at a National Level in the two biggest (Capacity) classes , don't fuck with that , at a Club level (and cheaper classes) is where the problem with numbers appear to be ( I know perhaps not everywhere).

Yep, ever since Masssssty Boy and his mates at the Brentwood changed the rules to allow SBK riders to upgrade their weapon, rather than having to update every year or two, that Class has grown.

Sadly, there remain more than a few who believe you spend your way to the front ........

[Billy]

[QUOTE=The Chow;1130680773]

Yep, ever since Masssssty Boy and his mates at the Brentwood changed the rules to allow SBK riders to upgrade their weapon, rather than having to update every year or two, that Class has grown.

Sadly, there remain more than a few who believe you spend your way to the front ........

Yip,

As you will be well aware,The "Experts" tell us that the distributors demand Superbike and Supersport and yet outside of a handful of machines dished out from Phanganewy,There was little support from any of them this year AND YET that same distributor poured a bunch of money into a series that promotes F1/F2,Time for the commissioner to speak directly to them again,Wonder if I'll get a reply this time???

Whoops....anybody else here an Elephant squeak????Must be getting closer to Friday LOL

[roogazza]

Good call, Ian !
It wasn't always a nothing, even in NZ...:woohoo:

http://imageshack.com/a/img36/4038/k5a5.jpg

Lucky generation weren't we Glen !!!!!!! Bloody great !

[jellywrestler]

Lucky generation weren't we Glen !!!!!!! Bloody great !

yip there were no drift cars, motards, freestyle motocross, ten channels on telly, sunday trading and all that other shit to go to

[The Chow]

Lucky generation weren't we Glen !!!!!!! Bloody great !

Yes , I , Billy and Budda would agree , we were all there and in at least my case I was also racing or helping run Ruapuna round. That was then this is now , being an old guy (not that many years away from the pension)I am I'm not living in the past , in my case I love the sport now as much as I ever did then . So yes we were a lucky generation there is not doubt. But these new bikes and riders are something else but in most cases the riders they act no differently to many that have come before.

[scrivy]

many that have come before.

Premature ya mean??:shifty:

[budda]

Yes , I , Billy and Budda would agree , we were all there and in at least my case I was also racing or helping run Ruapuna round. That was then this is now , being an old guy (not that many years away from the pension)I am I'm not living in the past , in my case I love the sport now as much as I ever did then . So yes we were a lucky generation there is not doubt. But these new bikes and riders are something else but in most cases the riders they act no differently to many that have come before.

Yep, I was riding and involved in running the Series meets at Levels - what was I thinking ?

The biggest single difference between then and now, other than tobacco money, IS the Riders.

SO many of the current crop have this sense of "entitlement", we have to provide a pathway to World Championship glory for them to be happy ...... the guys in that photo were hard men compared to many today, single-minded and driven ...... driven to BEAT the others, no bullsh1t about lap-times and style points, just got to beat that bastard.

Crap tracks, atrocious safety gear and track barriers, evil handling piles of sh1t to ride, God-awful rubber ( Goodyear slicks, the odd Yokohama and PZ2's !!!!) and still loving every minute ....... their modern-day Kiwi equivalents ( and there are currently more than quite a few ) have my utmost respect, and are the reason I stay involved - the rest should stay on the other side of the fence

Just re-read that, and it comes across as negative, which is NOT how I meant it ..... but if you are one of the ones racing for what it can give you ( other than a fantastic feeling, and if you're good enough+lucky enough+rich enough, a Championship or two ) I'm just saying there may be other sports that will fulfil your needs better than this one

[jellywrestler]

SO many of the current crop have this sense of "entitlement", been to a farm bike meeting lately Tellytubbie? main focus is on whose got the loudest and lowest van and whose got the most Tats.
way different world to the road races, i've said it before and i'll say it again, Asphalt is for Racing, Dirt is for House Training kittens...

[scott411]

been to a farm bike meeting lately Tellytubbie? main focus is on whose got the loudest and lowest van and whose got the most Tats.
way different world to the road races, i've said it before and i'll say it again, Asphalt is for Racing, Dirt is for House Training kittens...

stop talking about MNZ cash cow like that, ;)

Just because they can afford rims and sounds because their tyre bills don't approach 5 figures for 4 race meetings,

[Grumph]

yip there were no drift cars, motards, freestyle motocross, ten channels on telly, sunday trading and all that other shit to go to

And most important, no bloody internet.

If you wanted to find out what was going on or had happened, you had to actually go to a meeting and get involved.
I well remember the group on the grass at levels sorting the ACU between races while the cars were out on track...and talking to guys just back from the US.
But of course that was the extent of our social lives as we were so focused on racing we couldn't afford anything else....something else the current generation won't accept.

[Shaun Harris]

And most important, no bloody internet.

If you wanted to find out what was going on or had happened, you had to actually go to a meeting and get involved.
I well remember the group on the grass at levels sorting the ACU between races while the cars were out on track...and talking to guys just back from the US.
But of course that was the extent of our social lives as we were so focused on racing we couldn't afford anything else....something else the current generation won't accept.







ctas is great, but I got to wonder if that alone is helping keeping bumbs of the seats in the stands at the race tracks

[Billy]

stop talking about MNZ cash cow like that, ;)

Just because they can afford rims and sounds because their tyre bills don't approach 5 figures for 4 race meetings,

Absolutely agree on both counts,There is little comparison between the 2 disciplines other than the motorcycles and if the dirt side walked away,Things would change dramatically for roadracing.

[Billy]

ctas is great, but I got to wonder if that alone is helping keeping bumbs of the seats in the stands at the race tracks

Yea,

That was something I had to consider before backing Grant,But it could work both ways,Lose some who mightve come or attract some to attend the next round in their area.

[scott411]

Absolutely agree on both counts,There is little comparison between the 2 disciplines other than the motorcycles and if the dirt side walked away,Things would change dramatically for roadracing.

it was a piss take, just sprinkled with enough facts to be interesting

A lot of the dirt bike events have left MNZ already, and it is quite easy to race a lot with out a MNZ licence off road, especially in the top half of the north island,

the fact that their are massive differences in the problems faced by both groups, and I am not sure one licence for both disciplines is really a good solution,

I always thought a base licence fee for the processing, and then a fee set by the commissions, and used by those commission would be a better way to split the revenue, someone like me that races 3 or 4 different divisions would pay more, but the average road racer may pay less,

What problems are there with Day licences in road racing? in dirt racing they don't seem to be a problem? apart from the extra processing in the morning,

[Shaun Harris]

Yea,

That was something I had to consider before backing Grant,But it could work both ways,Lose some who mightve come or attract some to attend the next round in their area.







yep, catch 22 eh

[roogazza]

yip there were no drift cars, motards, freestyle motocross, ten channels on telly, sunday trading and all that other shit to go to
True Spyda, but maybe 50 odd channels huh ?

Yes , I , Billy and Budda would agree , we were all there and in at least my case I was also racing or helping run Ruapuna round. That was then this is now , being an old guy (not that many years away from the pension)I am I'm not living in the past , in my case I love the sport now as much as I ever did then . So yes we were a lucky generation there is not doubt. But these new bikes and riders are something else but in most cases the riders they act no differently to many that have come before.
I just applied for the old age pension just last week ! wow !
But , yes I still love the racing,just that I travel now and watch the best in the world instead .

To be really honest, I don't think I ever did any racing for the benefit of the crowds?
I did it for me,cos I wanted to have a go!
It's up to the new age to want to do that if they choose.
Good on all you blokes, that want to try helping them though.

[wharfy]

Lucky generation weren't we Glen !!!!!!! Bloody great !

Love the 44 gallon flower pots decorating the track :)

[gammaguy]

the first rule in a recession is don't make whats in front of you obsolete.
So please explain how you make a basically stock class what happens to all the current bikes out there now?????, do they spend big money bringing them back to standard, or do they thow them out and then who'll appear on the grids...

MNZ and before them the ACU has been making bikes obsolete for years, alienating bikes and riders in the process at every class and major rule change such as 250 production.F2 to name just a couple

Yes I know..... Relevance....... Safety.... Blabla... Heard it all before

Fact is Joe public to most intents and purposes doesn't give a damn, he just wants to see close racing with big fields

Unless a solution is found to that it will remain where it is, largely a group of hard core enthusiasts and fans essentially entertaining themselves and I am not saying that is a bad thing

For the money to flow in for the expensive classes the whole model will need to be on a more commercial basis and there is still no guarantee the distributors dealers and wholesalers will get involved

Seems to me that MNZ and it's collective members have a few big decisions to make

[Robert Taylor]

Ah, yes, sorry i gave an opening......

Robert, I'd point out that robbing sponsors has a very long history - i can quote you examples going back to the 50's. in some cases it made the difference between eating or not....And in the main the distributors wore it as most realised what the circumstances were.

Since the 80's though I'd suggest that profit margins have got smaller - and yes, it has had to be tightened up. Doesn't excuse it i know but it does go some way to explaining it. I've been ripped off myself as have various people and businesses I've partnered with - which is one reason I'm a poor old cunt...

As I see it, we've got pretty good support at grass roots level still, but the jump to riding at National level is seen as being too big or expensive....and i'm fucked if I see an easy answer.

Yes, fair points, but in deference to your last paragraph why do we put so many Superbikes on the grid?

[Robert Taylor]

Welcome Welcome Welcome mate.

You need to be currently making money to continue spending money on marketing (racing)? or have a brilliant biz plan written up and detailed that displays the plans path to achieve this luxury to justify doing it.


When power went out in Auckland City for bit, Portable generators were transported in and placed to power all back up again, so the spuds got cooked. 1980 Generators/suspenion/electronics/tyres/ ERROL conigan or how ever it is spealt? bla bla were crap compared to today but it worked!
OK yes lots have changed " but again '' It worked.

Our current racing programme and rules work, finance involved does not simply so some thing needs (DD-Your dam words haha) and I am really looking forward to reading Choppa;s tyre allocation limit plan for SB and HOT RODDED 600z) - IF ( Shocking word) you also raced on STANDARD suspension apart from oil level - amount -weight and springs and spacers- ( just idea's) a 12 month budget is a heck of lot more entertaining. Now brake the $ amount down to a daily SAVING per x 365 days is not a bad figure and is more managable to stretch your poorly apprentise or what ever wage down too due to other commitments.

600Z with full race exhausts and electrics ( ECU + LOOM) Motor work and cams and the above, FUCK ME ( Just had to) divided by x days = stupid stupid over heads in today's climate! We are not going to die, we just need to retrench for a bit to gather. SBKS are what they are, but do not NEED to be for a while ( IF ) ever to the current build spec costings.

A Cheaper game with the draw card of ours, WILL always be played more with boys with petrol in there veins that can stretch to it comfortably rather than adding the bull shit finance stress that comes with current enviroment.

You know and any one else on here that knows me also know's that I am a huge fan of the best equipment for racing and here is that word again ( BUT) No $ = No racing. Get back to basics in the trenches and re guide the mass to able to march forward and hey ho presto, there comes the technology introduction again as the show grows.

It needs time out from all ( or as many over heads ) as possible to re build and direct forward. YEP we could go into crashes from crap tyres and crap suspension etc , but you only need to go faster than the bike leading at the moment by 50mm to WIN ( Fuk the lap record) and you are all on the same basically and hugely cheaper.

Competition not technology not finance not contacts is where our sport comes from, how about a 3 year plan of pure PRODUCTIUON 600+1000zzz being just that? 2-3 years from now with some of the current young hot shots on these bikes as well as some older add ins ie club scene fun competitors- locals, and then re visit the rules along with the economy.

BASICS Welcome Welcome Welcome also I say to re build and grow!

Going for a ROOT now, Had rather a CONSTRUCTIVE day

A clone of EJC500 fits the bill quite nicely, as suggested previously but instantly shot down

[Robert Taylor]

Guys, I'm just a lowly club racer but I kinda see the point of stock only classes. I listen to this 'aftermarket suspension makes it safer/better' talk and I just keep thinking to myself:

If no one had it, then how would the sport be any worse? Better suspension simply extends the limits of the bike. Scale back the suspension level and the bike doesn't get more dangerous, it just gets more dangerous to go the speed you did before. The best riders will test those limits, and everyone would soon adjust to them. Look at the Hyosung guys in the Auckland comp. Would they go faster with purpose built Ohlins suspension? Yes, most likely. But would the racing be any better? Probably not, as the best would still win, but the field would be more spread out/thinner due to budget restrictions.


The other argument is that 'superbike/supersport is the (insert more appropriate word if you like) premier class in NZ, so it should be an expensive/high tech environment'. Now don't get me wrong, I have a huge amount of respect for the fast guys who have balls and skills I'll never have, but I cant help thinking that people lose sight that its not MotoGP/WSBK. Who cares if you are 1 or 2 seconds a lap slower than you were with 15 more HP and $6000 of ohlins suspension that needs a technician to adjust it every time someone looks at it? Id rather see (and participate) in close racing throughout the field, with more people competing because the costs are lower. And as a spectator, I couldn't give a flying fuck about the lap time itself, I just wanna know how much faster is than the person that comes second, and watch some good racing. That's what would make me pay an entry fee, or watch online (big ups to CTAS).

Racing is amazing fun, but when you are broke and struggling to make ends meet, is an extra second or 3 a lap really worth it? What if you could be financially stable AND know that your bike is competitive? Wow, the possibilities...

Unless you have been hiding somewhere there is not only Ohlins suspension out there and plenty of people ready to purchase the options on offer. And why pick on a brand that is in fact oem fitment on many models?. If people race those models will they be expected to take that suspension off and fit something cheap and nasty to satisfy 1970s levels of thinking?

[Robert Taylor]

[QUOTE=jellywrestler;1130680762]

Thank you Jelly , I was thinking (as I'm sure many were) what do we do with all the bikes we have now. Also It is strange that we haven't heard from the guys and gals that are actually racing now. If we have no money please tell me how come there are over 20 Supersport bikes on the national grid (most of which are not distributor bikes) and at least 15-20 Superbikes on grid (Most of which are not the latest model , but rebuilt older models , meaning they are getting more than one year out of the basic bike) and it has been this way since the MNZ changed the rules. If there is no money to go racing in your bank account (then fine don't go racing) , If there is little money , don't spend it where it isn't needed on Go Pro Cameras , Folding Brakes Levers etc. Those things alone would at least be better spend going towards your a tyres (which you need) or something that you really need. The sport is expensive over my years in this sport I have been a sponsor of many and I have also been shafted by many , BUT I keep coming back ( I must be simple alright), let the market dictate , at the moment people are racing and in good numbers at a National Level in the two biggest (Capacity) classes , don't fuck with that , at a Club level (and cheaper classes) is where the problem with numbers appear to be ( I know perhaps not everywhere).

Exactly right. Per head of population we are doing a lot better in what we put on the grid than many other countries that race such motorcycles. There is little need to dumb it down . If you cannot afford to race in such classes then dont race.

[wayne]

250 production, tyre warmers allowed,
tyres would last better, also the warm up- lap wuld be alot safer.

[Robert Taylor]

Its also not an irrelevant reality to point out that MANY road going riders now seek the help of aftermarket suspension offerings at all levels. This because they are dissatisfied with ride quality , machine control , tyre distress or all of that. This may just be from riding on the road or an occassional trackday foray.
As an example more than a few Panigale owners have come to us because the rear end is ridiculously stiff out of the box ( Ohlins and Sachs equipped models ) Respringing is often required and certainly revalving. If our work has helped to ease in a small way a burden on ACC, the health system and insurance companies then job done
So if a road going rider opted to then turn his bike into a racebike he would have to reverse all the work ( and cost ) to compete in a box stock racing formula to satisfy those that havent actually thought it all through properly
Of course many riders respring to suit their personal stats. Why should a 50kg rider on a Panigale be penailised for not being able to make the suspension move, or in the opposite secenario a 150kg riding hitting the bottom all the time.
For christs sake, this is 2014, not 1974. There are solutions on offer and its a market reality, therefore racing also mirrors the realities of the market.

[Robert Taylor]

250 production, tyre warmers allowed,
tyres would last better, also the warm up- lap wuld be alot safer.

Heck John, dont have the temerity to suggest COSTLY tyre warmers!!!

[Grumph]

Yes, fair points, but in deference to your last paragraph why do we put so many Superbikes on the grid?

Fucked if I know...here in the SI, those who want to do the Nats have to be a very dedicated bunch, and have shall we say, substantial backing....often obtained through holding down senior well paid jobs, hence the "dads army' crack a while back.

Just as in the past though, there are more bikes on the grid than there are good riders for them. Look at any era from the past and there were always bikes there which weren't being pedalled to their limits. From observation that still holds.Yes, the bikes are quicker, but look at the 1300cc F1 era and they weren't a lot down on HP but shit they were harder to ride.

My own pet peeve down here is the guys who turn up to open hire days with top bikes and everything that can be bought for them....But who won't front at a club day and race....

[RobGassit]

250 production, tyre warmers allowed,
tyres would last better, also the warm up- lap wuld be alot safer.


Sounds good, and they should remove the word "production" too, and replace it with Formula.

[budda]

250 production, tyre warmers allowed,
tyres would last better, also the warm up- lap wuld be alot safer.

And so it goes .......

[budda]

My own pet peeve down here is the guys who turn up to open hire days with top bikes and everything that can be bought for them....But who won't front at a club day and race....

Yep - there is, like it or not ( and I don't ) a yawning chasm between the guys who are playing in this sandpit because they just plain love racing motorbikes, love it enough to make the sacrifices required, and those who like riding motorbikes (in their minds at least) fast in front of a crowd.

The former are where the SPORTS concentration needs to be, but the latter group are very vocal on sites such as this (among others ) with all sorts of clap-trap ..........

That's why we suffer a relative dearth of "Nationals" riders - more than a few of these dolphin-polishers are a tad reluctant to be seen for what they are ....... and the RACERS go out and do battle simply because they can, and for the most case couldn't tell you how many were in the stands

And part of the problem is not only the "sense of entitlement" of the knob-jockies, but their insistence that Racing must be Fair ....... sorry, your school teacher put you crook buddy - cant hide from the fact that in THIS Sport, there ARE Winners, and for the rest ( often me included ) there is another category that starts with L, and rhymes with User ( funny that ! )

Has been the same for the last 41 years , but has got significantly worse over the last 5-6 years with the proliferation of websites and the attendant attitudes of some ........

[codgyoleracer]

250 production, tyre warmers allowed,
tyres would last better, also the warm up- lap wuld be alot safer.

As the name suggests the "warm up lap" is exactly that, its not a race to the grid, its not a time to "push" the front, its not a time to "buzz" or be very close to other riders...... it is a WARM UP lap.

As far as i am aware riders on 250 proddys are not ending up stacked up on top of each other around the track on the warm up lap ?, and the only adjustment i could think of is the "possible" allowance to run 2 laps at maybe Manfield where lefthanders are infrequent.

Lets list the things you could add or allow to 250 proddy " on the grounds of safety"

Slicks
Wets
Different sized wheels
Warmers
Suspension
Brakes = Discs, master cylinders, etc
Frame bracing
Ground clearance modifications
Compulsory specialised rider protective gear (for this class) airbags etc
Electonics
Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah.....................


So on the grounds of safety, lets add $15,000 to the bike build - and see how the class "develops"

Cue " sarcastic look" :baby:

[budda]

as the name suggests the "warm up lap" is exactly that, its not a race to the grid, its not a time to "push" the front, its not a time to "buzz" or be very close to other riders...... It is a warm up lap.

As far as i am aware riders on 250 proddys are not ending up stacked up on top of each other around the track on the warm up lap ?, and the only adjustment i could think of is the "possible" allowance to run 2 laps at maybe manfield where lefthanders are infrequent.

Lets list the thing you could add allow to 250 proddy " on the grounds of safety"

slicks
wets
different sized wheels
warmers
suspension
brakes = discs, master cylinders, etc
frame bracing
ground clearance modifications
compulsory specialised rider protective gear (for this class) airbags etc
electonics
blah blah blah blah blah.....................


So on the grounds of safety, lets add $15,000 to the bike build - and see how the class "develops"

cue " sarcastic look" :baby:

bullseye .......

[Robert Taylor]

Yep - there is, like it or not ( and I don't ) a yawning chasm between the guys who are playing in this sandpit because they just plain love racing motorbikes, love it enough to make the sacrifices required, and those who like riding motorbikes (in their minds at least) fast in front of a crowd.

The former are where the SPORTS concentration needs to be, but the latter group are very vocal on sites such as this (among others ) with all sorts of clap-trap ..........

That's why we suffer a relative dearth of "Nationals" riders - more than a few of these dolphin-polishers are a tad reluctant to be seen for what they are ....... and the RACERS go out and do battle simply because they can, and for the most case couldn't tell you how many were in the stands

And part of the problem is not only the "sense of entitlement" of the knob-jockies, but their insistence that Racing must be Fair ....... sorry, your school teacher put you crook buddy - cant hide from the fact that in THIS Sport, there ARE Winners, and for the rest ( often me included ) there is another category that starts with L, and rhymes with User ( funny that ! )

Has been the same for the last 41 years , but has got significantly worse over the last 5-6 years with the proliferation of websites and the attendant attitudes of some ........

Dont forget the pervasive influence of Helen Clark, the Greens and that seperatist Racist party. All of those idiots have further engendered the mentality that pervades

[scott411]

Dont forget the pervasive influence of Helen Clark, the Greens and that seperatist Racist party. All of those idiots have further engendered the mentality that pervades

for god sake Robert, lets keep this to the facts, since the Greens have never been in goverment,

the simple fact is, a track day is more fun for a lot of people, you get more laps, sit around a whole heap less, it costs less, and their is a heap less rules to keep up with,

think about this when you are making new rules, esp with the 1 day licence, which most people get the first time they go racing, make that to hard, then they won't start

its the same with trail riding for off road riders,

[budda]

Dont forget the pervasive influence of Helen Clark, the Greens and that seperatist Racist party. All of those idiots have further engendered the mentality that pervades

Merlot for brekky again Doc ?

[codgyoleracer]

for god sake Robert, lets keep this to the facts, since the Greens have never been in goverment,

the simple fact is, a track day is more fun for a lot of people, you get more laps, sit around a whole heap less, it costs less, and their is a heap less rules to keep up with,

think about this when you are making new rules, esp with the 1 day licence, which most people get the first time they go racing, make that to hard, then they won't start

its the same with trail riding for off road riders,


In the immortal words of talkin heads, - 'stop making sense" , you'll only confuse the poor fellow's that have hidden agendas

[Shaun Harris]

A clone of EJC500 fits the bill quite nicely, as suggested previously but instantly shot down




we have it already with exellent low cost 250 Production championship.


The Rolling Stones wrote a song with rellivant words on this subject " Ya can;t always get what ya want"

I like the 500 idea in principle, and maybe when the floods settle a little in the future it may be a path to follow.

[steveyb]

Dont forget the pervasive influence of Helen Clark, the Greens and that seperatist Racist party. All of those idiots have further engendered the mentality that pervades

Sounds more like that Merlot must have been corked and he only discovered after the 3rd glass and is a touch annoyed.

[budda]

for god sake Robert, lets keep this to the facts, since the Greens have never been in goverment,

the simple fact is, a track day is more fun for a lot of people, you get more laps, sit around a whole heap less, it costs less, and their is a heap less rules to keep up with,

think about this when you are making new rules, esp with the 1 day licence, which most people get the first time they go racing, make that to hard, then they won't start

its the same with trail riding for off road riders,

Never ceases to amaze me how well some folk type, with both hands wrung off like that

[scott411]

Never ceases to amaze me how well some folk type, with both hands wrung off like that

yes, it has been mentioned many a time that I am smarter than I look,

[budda]

yes, it has been mentioned many a time that I am smarter than I look,

Yeah mate, I pinched all the dust from the Good Looks Fairies Miracle Bag ........:weep:

[roogazza]

the simple fact is, a track day is more fun for a lot of people, you get more laps, sit around a whole heap less, it costs less, and their is a heap less rules to keep up with,

think about this when you are making new rules, esp with the 1 day licence, which most people get the first time they go racing, make that to hard, then they won't start

its the same with trail riding for off road riders,

The KISS method, yes !
I know it's a different era but it has to be cheap to start ? no ?
Early seventies you bought an RD350 for 500 bucks, took the horn off, wired the sump plug and fitted number boards.
You could win a national race on that.
So, the new 500 bucks is probably 5000 ? buy the 250 ninja thingy and do the same.
MNZ could probably cull some of the other classes/make changes.
Close it up times are tough.

[JayRacer37]

As the name suggests the "warm up lap" is exactly that, its not a race to the grid, its not a time to "push" the front, its not a time to "buzz" or be very close to other riders...... it is a WARM UP lap.

As far as i am aware riders on 250 proddys are not ending up stacked up on top of each other around the track on the warm up lap ?, and the only adjustment i could think of is the "possible" allowance to run 2 laps at maybe Manfield where lefthanders are infrequent.

Lets list the thing you could add allow to 250 proddy " on the grounds of safety"

Slicks
Wets
Different sized wheels
Warmers
Suspension
Brakes = Discs, master cylinders, etc
Frame bracing
Ground clearance modifications
Compulsory specialised rider protective gear (for this class) airbags etc
Electonics
Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah.....................


So on the grounds of safety, lets add $15,000 to the bike build - and see how the class "develops"

Cue " sarcastic look" :baby:

Easier than that - make them race on the original size and construction tyres that the bikes came on. In the case of the Kawasaki, Bias/cross ply sports tyres (Pirelli Sport Demon, Bridgestone BT45 etc), no warmer even close to required, safer wet performance, and the kind of loads the manufacturer expected...Would work out OK for the Hyosung though, it could have racing radials in it's 110/70 and 150/70 size.

:corn:

[scott411]

Easier than that - make them race on the original size and construction tyres that the bikes came on. In the case of the Kawasaki, Bias/cross ply sports tyres (Pirelli Sport Demon, Bridgestone BT45 etc), no warmer even close to required, safer wet performance, and the kind of loads the manufacturer expected...Would work out OK for the Hyosung though, it could have racing radials in it's 110/70 and 150/70 size.

:corn:

a spec tyre in that range would be a good option IMHO,

[budda]

Easier than that - make them race on the original size and construction tyres that the bikes came on. In the case of the Kawasaki, Bias/cross ply sports tyres (Pirelli Sport Demon, Bridgestone BT45 etc), no warmer even close to required, safer wet performance, and the kind of loads the manufacturer expected...Would work out OK for the Hyosung though, it could have racing radials in it's 110/70 and 150/70 size.

:corn:
I've been supplying rubber for the Minge-Ah's since day ONE - to my knowledge there have been NO instances of premature wear and/or riders crashing on warm-up on the 003RS's I fitted

In FACT the first Championship ( run in PISSING wet and HOT dry conditions from one end of the Country to the other) was WON on ONE PAIR OF THESE STONE-COLD STANDARD ROAD TYRES

And if memory serves, the next 2-3 riders were the same ........

[budda]

a spec tyre in that range would be a good option IMHO,

even MORE dumbing down then Scott - the reality is, NONE of the mainstream players makes a truly bad tyre for the wee beasties ....... the skill in getting the right feel from different tyres, mixing and matching brands/carcass shapes etc is part of the learning. Until the pilots undy-fillers are connected to his head and he can TELL whats happening between his legs, all the adjustable boingers and clickers in the world are superfluous .... that's one of the best things about this Class, they have to learn to ride

[scott411]

even MORE dumbing down then Scott - the reality is, NONE of the mainstream players makes a truly bad tyre for the wee beasties ....... the skill in getting the right feel from different tyres, mixing and matching brands/carcass shapes etc is part of the learning. Until the pilots undy-fillers are connected to his head and he can TELL whats happening between his legs, all the adjustable boingers and clickers in the world are superfluous .... that's one of the best things about this Class, they have to learn to ride

fair enough, and i would take your advice on the matter as gospel, thought a better deal for every racer may have come about, but it also may create more issues than it will solve,

[budda]

fair enough, and i would take your advice on the matter as gospel, thought a better deal for every racer may have come about, but it also may create more issues than it will solve,

Trust me, the only one getting a "better deal" with Control tyres is usually the Promoter!!!!!!:psst:

[Billy]

As the name suggests the "warm up lap" is exactly that, its not a race to the grid, its not a time to "push" the front, its not a time to "buzz" or be very close to other riders...... it is a WARM UP lap.

As far as i am aware riders on 250 proddys are not ending up stacked up on top of each other around the track on the warm up lap ?, and the only adjustment i could think of is the "possible" allowance to run 2 laps at maybe Manfield where lefthanders are infrequent.

Lets list the things you could add or allow to 250 proddy " on the grounds of safety"

Slicks
Wets
Different sized wheels
Warmers
Suspension
Brakes = Discs, master cylinders, etc
Frame bracing
Ground clearance modifications
Compulsory specialised rider protective gear (for this class) airbags etc
Electonics
Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah.....................


So on the grounds of safety, lets add $15,000 to the bike build - and see how the class "develops"

Cue " sarcastic look" :baby:

It scares me that I have an email with recommended changes to the class received about this time last year,That is not to far removed from the list you have there......Superlite anybody????

[budda]

It scares me that I have an email with recommended changes to the class received about this time last year,That is not to far removed from the list you have there......Superlite anybody????

:brick::brick::brick::brick::brick: Wonder if I could guess who its from .....:crazy::eek5::eek5::eek5:

[eelracing]

been to a farm bike meeting lately,way different world to the road races, i've said it before and i'll say it again, Asphalt is for Racing, Dirt is for House Training kittens...

It's your loss if you truly believe that.

I can take three bikes (total worth less than a 2nd hand 250 roadrace bike)and get in 3 practices and 15 races in a day at a VMX meet...if the body can handle it.
All for the princely sum of $70 entry and less than 20 litres of mixed fuel.

Lining up at the start and racing fellow reprobates and talking shit afterwards is no different than racing on tarmac,except no waiting all day for your next race and a superior bang for buck all round.

[codgyoleracer]

It's your loss if you truly believe that.

I can take three bikes (total worth less than a 2nd hand 250 roadrace bike)and get in 3 practices and 15 races in a day at a VMX meet...if the body can handle it.
All for the princely sum of $70 entry and less than 20 litres of mixed fuel.

Lining up at the start and racing fellow reprobates and talking shit afterwards is no different than racing on tarmac,except no waiting all day for your next race and a superior bang for buck all round.

Yep, sounds like a fun day out to me!. Tarmac arenas are always going to be more costly simply due to the infrastructure involved for the facilities, - nevertheless doin it in the dirt rates just as highly for me on the fun factor scale ( i just wish i was better at it :weep:)

[budda]

Yep, sounds like a fun day out to me!. Tarmac arenas are always going to be more costly simply due to the infrastructure involved for the facilities, - nevertheless doin it in the dirt rates just as highly for me on the fun factor scale ( i just wish i was better at it :weep:)

Anybody on here want an SC500 then, equally as evil on either surface ........

Finally come to the realisation that I'll never live long enough to finish 'em all, so she's gotta go :confused::no:

[jasonu]

Guys, I'm just a lowly club racer but I kinda see the point of stock only classes. I listen to this 'aftermarket suspension makes it safer/better' talk and I just keep thinking to myself:

If no one had it, then how would the sport be any worse? Better suspension simply extends the limits of the bike. Scale back the suspension level and the bike doesn't get more dangerous, it just gets more dangerous to go the speed you did before. The best riders will test those limits, and everyone would soon adjust to them. Look at the Hyosung guys in the Auckland comp. Would they go faster with purpose built Ohlins suspension? Yes, most likely. But would the racing be any better? Probably not, as the best would still win, but the field would be more spread out/thinner due to budget restrictions.


The other argument is that 'superbike/supersport is the (insert more appropriate word if you like) premier class in NZ, so it should be an expensive/high tech environment'. Now don't get me wrong, I have a huge amount of respect for the fast guys who have balls and skills I'll never have, but I cant help thinking that people lose sight that its not MotoGP/WSBK. Who cares if you are 1 or 2 seconds a lap slower than you were with 15 more HP and $6000 of ohlins suspension that needs a technician to adjust it every time someone looks at it? Id rather see (and participate) in close racing throughout the field, with more people competing because the costs are lower. And as a spectator, I couldn't give a flying fuck about the lap time itself, I just wanna know how much faster is than the person that comes second, and watch some good racing. That's what would make me pay an entry fee, or watch online (big ups to CTAS).

Racing is amazing fun, but when you are broke and struggling to make ends meet, is an extra second or 3 a lap really worth it? What if you could be financially stable AND know that your bike is competitive? Wow, the possibilities...

Three words for you my man. GO BUCKET RACING.:niceone:

[Robert Taylor]

even MORE dumbing down then Scott - the reality is, NONE of the mainstream players makes a truly bad tyre for the wee beasties ....... the skill in getting the right feel from different tyres, mixing and matching brands/carcass shapes etc is part of the learning. Until the pilots undy-fillers are connected to his head and he can TELL whats happening between his legs, all the adjustable boingers and clickers in the world are superfluous .... that's one of the best things about this Class, they have to learn to ride

No one is arguing about that but as they progress to the classes that have adjustable suspension and far more sensitivity ( standard on the bikes )they need to learn something inbetween that will instil same, and in a non threatening way. Thats why the suggestion has been made of an EJC500 clone class, fitted with affordable adjustable suspension and decent grip level control tyres.

You could of course from here in an insignificant part of the world insist that the factories start making large capacity bikes again with this flexible non adjustable suspension. Just for NZ as we will have so much influence and to satisfy the stone age mentality that a number of people have

[Robert Taylor]

for god sake Robert, lets keep this to the facts, since the Greens have never been in goverment,

the simple fact is, a track day is more fun for a lot of people, you get more laps, sit around a whole heap less, it costs less, and their is a heap less rules to keep up with,

think about this when you are making new rules, esp with the 1 day licence, which most people get the first time they go racing, make that to hard, then they won't start

its the same with trail riding for off road riders,

They have been ''in Government'' Remember the anti smacking bill that was brokered? Morons like the Greens are helping to dumb down society and its attitudes so their poisonous influence is relevant. MMP should never have happened.

But yes I agree with the simplicity. Funny thing is though Scott we get to upspec a lot of track day bikes because the riders work out why they are burning tyres and understeering off the turns etc. Explain that?

MX : I personally think that MX has suffered because we have deviated too far from the natural terrain tracks from years past.

[Billy]

:brick::brick::brick::brick::brick: Wonder if I could guess who its from .....:crazy::eek5::eek5::eek5:

Yea,

Thats not really relevant as the person I received the email from,Was authorised by me,To discuss the future of the class and any possible changes they might want,So it cannot be taken as 1 persons request.

[Billy]

No one is arguing about that but as they progress to the classes that have adjustable suspension and far more sensitivity ( standard on the bikes )they need to learn something inbetween that will instil same, and in a non threatening way. Thats why the suggestion has been made of an EJC500 clone class, fitted with affordable adjustable suspension and decent grip level control tyres.

You could of course from here in an insignificant part of the world insist that the factories start making large capacity bikes again with this flexible non adjustable suspension. Just for NZ as we will have so much influence and to satisfy the stone age mentality that a number of people have

Thats all a bit naughty really Robert,There is no "Stoneage mentality" as such,Rather a commonsense approach by those charged with running the sport in the fact that as has been stated many times before,The last thing we need is more classes AND we already have 3 classes that provide the necessary areas of rider development you speak of after 250 Production,I have no issue with introducing a 500 twin class to run within Pro Twins,But I seriously doubt there will be many takers if the experience with the 2 Superstock classes is to be taken into consideration.

[Robert Taylor]

Thats all a bit naughty really Robert,There is no "Stoneage mentality" as such,Rather a commonsense approach by those charged with running the sport in the fact that as has been stated many times before,The last thing we need is more classes AND we already have 3 classes that provide the necessary areas of rider development you speak of after 250 Production,I have no issue with introducing a 500 twin class to run within Pro Twins,But I seriously doubt there will be many takers if the experience with the 2 Superstock classes is to be taken into consideration.

Oh yes there is a sizable element of ''stoneage mentality'' as I brutally stated it. The whole EJC500 idea comes at it from a different angle and I have in previous threads taken some trouble to explian the ''package''. Have you listened or have you from the very outset just discounted it out of hand, given your last sentence?
Why was such a class popular and very well subscribed in Europe? Have they got more enlightened attitudes? Have you spoken to Jake Lewis at length about the class? Why have several Kiwis competed in the class?

[jellywrestler]

It's your loss if you truly believe that.


the fact that i drove across country to go to the woodville motocross and added another 100kms to my and m,y partners journey, and paid $20 bucks to get in actually negates that.
I also enjoy fishing, and just caught another, can i have my hook back please?

[eelracing]

the fact that i drove across country to go to the woodville motocross and added another 100kms to my and m,y partners journey, and paid $20 bucks to get in actually negates that.
I also enjoy fishing, and just caught another, can i have my hook back please?

Yeah and it's fantastic to see some Juniors kicking arse on those cheap and nasty stinky 250 smokers.

I'll keep the hook thanks, the point sometimes comes in handy.

[Billy]

Oh yes there is a sizable element of ''stoneage mentality'' as I brutally stated it. The whole EJC500 idea comes at it from a different angle and I have in previous threads taken some trouble to explian the ''package''. Have you listened or have you from the very outset just discounted it out of hand, given your last sentence?
Why was such a class popular and very well subscribed in Europe? Have they got more enlightened attitudes? Have you spoken to Jake Lewis at length about the class? Why have several Kiwis competed in the class?

Tell you the truth Robert,

I havent given it any thought at all,Nor have I discussed at length with anybody including Jake Lewis,Why? Because to date,Nobody has contacted me as commissioner through any other channels than this site and discussed it at any length OR enlightened me on the specfics.

Why is such a class very well subscribed in Europe,Ummm because it's the European Junior cup,Same reason the EJC was well subscribed when it was run with EX250s and KTMs,Why have several Kiwis competed in the class,Ummm ...well,Same reason really and I'm reasonably confident the population base is slightly higher than ours.

Oddly enough though,I heard a wee whisper just yesterday that there are some who are keen for it to happen,But unfortunately they keep talking to the wrong people about it,As long as the secret squirrel approach is applied,Then I doubt it will go much further.

[Robert Taylor]

Tell you the truth Robert,

I havent given it any thought at all,Nor have I discussed at length with anybody including Jake Lewis,Why? Because to date,Nobody has contacted me as commissioner through any other channels than this site and discussed it at any length OR enlightened me on the specfics.

Why is such a class very well subscribed in Europe,Ummm because it's the European Junior cup,Same reason the EJC was well subscribed when it was run with EX250s and KTMs,Why have several Kiwis competed in the class,Ummm ...well,Same reason really and I'm reasonably confident the population base is slightly higher than ours.

Oddly enough though,I heard a wee whisper just yesterday that there are some who are keen for it to happen,But unfortunately they keep talking to the wrong people about it,As long as the secret squirrel approach is applied,Then I doubt it will go much further.

There has been no secrecy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Billy]

There has been no secrecy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh dear,

Let me clarify for you Robert,By secret squirrel,I meant talking amongst ones selves and not with the person charged with running the sport.

[scott411]

They have been ''in Government'' Remember the anti smacking bill that was brokered? Morons like the Greens are helping to dumb down society and its attitudes so their poisonous influence is relevant. MMP should never have happened.

But yes I agree with the simplicity. Funny thing is though Scott we get to upspec a lot of track day bikes because the riders work out why they are burning tyres and understeering off the turns etc. Explain that?

MX : I personally think that MX has suffered because we have deviated too far from the natural terrain tracks from years past.

I know you do, you did some forks and a shock for my own track day bike, but that does not answer how to get these guys to race,

I agree with you on teh natural terrain thing, and i found an article my old man wrote in 1995 saying the same thing, funny how things go in cycles,

[budda]

Oh yes there is a sizable element of ''stoneage mentality'' as I brutally stated it. The whole EJC500 idea comes at it from a different angle and I have in previous threads taken some trouble to explian the ''package''. Have you listened or have you from the very outset just discounted it out of hand, given your last sentence?
Why was such a class popular and very well subscribed in Europe? Have they got more enlightened attitudes? Have you spoken to Jake Lewis at length about the class? Why have several Kiwis competed in the class?

As one who HAS spoken at exhaustive lengths to Jake both before, during and after his European foray(s), I can confirm that, for the most part, its not just because the bikes have adjustable boingers n clickers.

You, like me, have been around RACERS long enough to know that they are more often than not on the bike they are for one (or both ) of two reasons only - broad-stroke big-brush generality here, its either all they can afford to run ( usually JUST ! ) or its simply a means to an end

Personally, for the record, I LIKE the idea, and have no issue with it running within ProTwins structure, albeit with some slight tweaking, but I surely agree with Billy; RACING IN NEW ZEALAND DOES NOT NEED EVEN MORE SPECIALIST CLASSES.

Next you'll have the hand-wringers wanting different age-groups within the Class !!!!!

[Robert Taylor]

Oh dear,

Let me clarify for you Robert,By secret squirrel,I meant talking amongst ones selves and not with the person charged with running the sport.

When we turned up with this bike at Taupo a few months back it was to prove that it would go around the track and all effort had been expended to get it to that point. It was notable that immediately we could feel the vibe ''this is not wanted'', from certain quarters.
There are more people involved than one person from within MNZ in the sense of coming up with a workable concept and then officially presenting it all to MNZ as a whole.
All ideas should receive a fair hearing but its perhaps because there is so much entrenched thinking within the sport that it remains as it is.
Perhaps we should have been extra secretive because as soon as the arch parasite of the NZ suspension world learnt about it he was into Blue Wing like a robbers dog trying to displace my interest in it.
In many ways there really are a lot of ''niggers in the woodpile''. Thats not PC but I dont give a damn

[Shaun Harris]

When we turned up with this bike at Taupo a few months back it was to prove that it would go around the track and all effort had been expended to get it to that point. It was notable that immediately we could feel the vibe ''this is not wanted'', from certain quarters.
There are more people involved than one person from within MNZ in the sense of coming up with a workable concept and then officially presenting it all to MNZ as a whole.
All ideas should receive a fair hearing but its perhaps because there is so much entrenched thinking within the sport that it remains as it is.
Perhaps we should have been extra secretive because as soon as the arch parasite of the NZ suspension world learnt about it he was into Blue Wing like a robbers dog trying to displace my interest in it.
In many ways there really are a lot of ''niggers in the woodpile''. Thats not PC but I dont give a damn






Give us a logical reasoning as to why this class should be in place Robert, nothing to do with buisness interest though mate, purely for the good of the sport and upcoming riders

[scrivy]

I also enjoy fisting, and just caught another.....

We know you enjoy a good fisting!! But what did ya catch???:facepalm::shifty:

[Robert Taylor]

As one who HAS spoken at exhaustive lengths to Jake both before, during and after his European foray(s), I can confirm that, for the most part, its not just because the bikes have adjustable boingers n clickers.

You, like me, have been around RACERS long enough to know that they are more often than not on the bike they are for one (or both ) of two reasons only - broad-stroke big-brush generality here, its either all they can afford to run ( usually JUST ! ) or its simply a means to an end

Personally, for the record, I LIKE the idea, and have no issue with it running within ProTwins structure, albeit with some slight tweaking, but I surely agree with Billy; RACING IN NEW ZEALAND DOES NOT NEED EVEN MORE SPECIALIST CLASSES.

Next you'll have the hand-wringers wanting different age-groups within the Class !!!!!

The sum of all its parts yes. My reasons for responsive and adjustable suspension in such a class and ongoing rider and setup training within such a class are comprehensively explained in various threads.

[Shorty_925]

Great show case for the sport : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ay27lr08IMY&feature=youtu.be

Though this has nothing to do with rules or proposing to change them.

Taupo going to be a busy place 22nd & 23rd of March.

[Billy]

When we turned up with this bike at Taupo a few months back it was to prove that it would go around the track and all effort had been expended to get it to that point. It was notable that immediately we could feel the vibe ''this is not wanted'', from certain quarters.
There are more people involved than one person from within MNZ in the sense of coming up with a workable concept and then officially presenting it all to MNZ as a whole.
All ideas should receive a fair hearing but its perhaps because there is so much entrenched thinking within the sport that it remains as it is.
Perhaps we should have been extra secretive because as soon as the arch parasite of the NZ suspension world learnt about it he was into Blue Wing like a robbers dog trying to displace my interest in it.
In many ways there really are a lot of ''niggers in the woodpile''. Thats not PC but I dont give a damn

Dunno what that diatribe is all about,

It simply will never happen until such time as its tabled with ALL whoneed to be involved for it to progress(Think I said that already) and when I did a follow up after the Taupo test,NOBODY else at MNZ knew anything about it,Either on the board or at the office.

[budda]

Dunno what that diatribe is all about,

It simply will never happen until such time as its tabled with ALL whoneed to be involved for it to progress(Think I said that already) and when I did a follow up after the Taupo test,NOBODY else at MNZ knew anything about it,Either on the board or at the office.

RIGHT - now YOU get down South and sort that pile out, and YOU get back to HerdyGerdying:angry2:

[Robert Taylor]

Dunno what that diatribe is all about,

It simply will never happen until such time as its tabled with ALL whoneed to be involved for it to progress(Think I said that already) and when I did a follow up after the Taupo test,NOBODY else at MNZ knew anything about it,Either on the board or at the office.

In a few words ''abundant awareness of all the niggers in the woodpile''.

If this develops further due process will be followed and the concept is / has been tested and opinions sought to this point.

[codgyoleracer]

When we turned up with this bike at Taupo a few months back it was to prove that it would go around the track and all effort had been expended to get it to that point. It was notable that immediately we could feel the vibe ''this is not wanted'', from certain quarters.
There are more people involved than one person from within MNZ in the sense of coming up with a workable concept and then officially presenting it all to MNZ as a whole.
All ideas should receive a fair hearing but its perhaps because there is so much entrenched thinking within the sport that it remains as it is.
Perhaps we should have been extra secretive because as soon as the arch parasite of the NZ suspension world learnt about it he was into Blue Wing like a robbers dog trying to displace my interest in it.
In many ways there really are a lot of ''niggers in the woodpile''. Thats not PC but I dont give a damn

Offsubject, but Haha

So let me ge this right:
I competitor finds out about a potential market that they may not be going to get a piece of - so in your opinion the competitor should stand back, do nothing and let the other competitor capture it ?

Thats not very " free marketing thinking" of you Rob - Youre sounding more like a red under the bed communist every day !

[Robert Taylor]

Offsubject, but Haha

So let me ge this right:
I competitor finds out about a potential market that they may not be going to get a piece of - so in your opinion the competitor should stand back, do nothing and let the other competitor capture it ?

Thats not very " free marketing thinking" of you Rob - Youre sounding more like a red under the bed communist every day !

Its actually all about RESPECT. We had gone down the track a long way with this even at that point and done all the groundwork. Lots of dyno work, measuring, fitting etc. Im not sure if you are aware of this but there are more than a few suspension tuners and we all get along with one another and respect that if someone starts a deal and its reasonably progressed to then not interfere with it. Except for one who has no respect whatsoever for a silent code of conduct
Thankfully there are still a few people that subscribe to a decent modicum of business etiquette.

[codgyoleracer]

:killingme :killingme :killingme :killingme

:violin: :violin: :violin: :violin:

[Robert Taylor]

:killingme :killingme :killingme :killingme

:violin: :violin: :violin: :violin:

Yes, no time for rectums that talk out of their rectums and have no respect for a decent level of business etiquette. Its time the rules changed for such people, if you talk to them it only encourages them further.

[JayRacer37]

No one is arguing about that but as they progress to the classes that have adjustable suspension and far more sensitivity ( standard on the bikes )they need to learn something inbetween that will instil same, and in a non threatening way. Thats why the suggestion has been made of an EJC500 clone class, fitted with affordable adjustable suspension and decent grip level control tyres.

You could of course from here in an insignificant part of the world insist that the factories start making large capacity bikes again with this flexible non adjustable suspension. Just for NZ as we will have so much influence and to satisfy the stone age mentality that a number of people have

Bandit 1200 one make class.

[jellywrestler]

Bandit 1200 one make class.

talk to the post classics about this Jay

[Grumph]

[QUOTE=budda;

Next you'll have the hand-wringers wanting different age-groups within the Class !!!!![/QUOTE]

Hell, yeah !! Your bro can mop up the 250 prod under 50's and i'll go for the over 65's....

Robert - I wasn't aware Saint Maggie ever embraced business ethics - or even knew they existed...She'd have been there whipping on the opposition for the sake of "good healthy competition"

[budda]

Hell, yeah !! Your bro can mop up the 250 prod under 50's and i'll go for the over 65's....

Robert - I wasn't aware Saint Maggie ever embraced business ethics - or even knew they existed...She'd have been there whipping on the opposition for the sake of "good healthy competition"

He'd be excluded for ineligibility Greg !!!!!!! I'd LOVE to see a "minimum weight, Rider AND Bike combined" rule - but where would you bolt 50kg of lead ? Some of the young'uns would still need ballast TWO-UP !!!!!!

[RobGassit]

You can have as many rules and classes as you like, but without capturing the hearts and minds of the great unwashed,, your just a parking warden, putting signs up that nobody respects or obeys.( Luckily Billy understands this well, and can juggle ticket books with one hand, a coffee in the other and kick arses as he hops on one leg) Especially today!

[budda]

You can have as many rules and classes as you like, but without capturing the hearts and minds of the great unwashed,, your just a parking warden, putting signs up that nobody respects or obeys.

True - trouble is, the great unwashed are double parked in the handicapped zone:rolleyes:

[scracha]

Yep - there is, like it or not ( and I don't ) a yawning chasm between the guys who are playing in this sandpit because they just plain love racing motorbikes, love it enough to make the sacrifices required, and those who like riding motorbikes (in their minds at least) fast in front of a crowd.

It's fark all to do with sacrifices. After food, heating, petrol, child-care, electricity and rent (largely paid to the dads army generation who have a bloody cheek talking about "entitlement" after flogging of most of their country's assetts and accruing large debts for the current generation to pay), most employees have lot less disposable income than back in nineteencanteen. Our sport must make some changes if you want them to spend what little money they have left on motorcycle racing. I'm not saying all classes, I'm not saying ban Ohlins, the greens, my mate Hone nor smacking brats but some sensible cost savings in some classes wouldn't be stupid.



That's why we suffer a relative dearth of "Nationals" riders - more than a few of these dolphin-polishers are a tad reluctant to be seen for what they are ....... and the RACERS go out and do battle simply because they can, and for the most case couldn't tell you how many were in the stands

I believe it's more to do with money and taking time off the multiple jobs many have. Put simply, for the majority of club racers, the Nationals requires too much commitment for too little return.



And part of the problem is not only the "sense of entitlement" of the knob-jockies, but their insistence that Racing must be Fair ....... sorry, your school teacher put you crook buddy - cant hide from the fact that in THIS Sport, there ARE Winners,
I'm sure that after working hard all week and being left without much disposable income, the knob-jockies would tell dad's army that they're very aware that life isn't fair.

[Shaun Harris]

It's fark all to do with sacrifices. After food, heating, petrol, child-care, electricity and rent (largely paid to the dads army generation who have a bloody cheek talking about "entitlement" after flogging of most of their country's assetts and accruing large debts for the current generation to pay), most employees have lot less disposable income than back in nineteencanteen. Our sport must make some changes if you want them to spend what little money they have left on motorcycle racing. I'm not saying all classes, I'm not saying ban Ohlins, the greens, my mate Hone nor smacking brats but some sensible cost savings in some classes wouldn't be stupid.


I believe it's more to do with money and taking time off the multiple jobs many have. Put simply, for the majority of club racers, the Nationals requires too much commitment for too little return.


I'm sure that after working hard all week and being left without much disposable income, the knob-jockies would tell dad's army that they're very aware that life isn't fair.









Scracha, your post reads well

[Grumph]

It's fark all to do with sacrifices. After food, heating, petrol, child-care, electricity and rent (largely paid to the dads army generation who have a bloody cheek talking about "entitlement" after flogging of most of their country's assetts and accruing large debts for the current generation to pay), most employees have lot less disposable income than back in nineteencanteen. Our sport must make some changes if you want them to spend what little money they have left on motorcycle racing. I'm not saying all classes, I'm not saying ban Ohlins, the greens, my mate Hone nor smacking brats but some sensible cost savings in some classes wouldn't be stupid.


I believe it's more to do with money and taking time off the multiple jobs many have. Put simply, for the majority of club racers, the Nationals requires too much commitment for too little return.


I'm sure that after working hard all week and being left without much disposable income, the knob-jockies would tell dad's army that they're very aware that life isn't fair.

Come to ruapuna on a tuesday or friday - working days you'll note - and explain to me the number of top quality bikes surrounded by tyre warmers and generators, stands and spare wheels.....Who belong to a club for the sake of getting half price hire...

BUT WON'T BLOODY WELL FRONT AT A CLUB DAY.

Given these parasites on the club system, most of what you've written deasn't make sense, sorry.

[Kickaha]

Who belong to a club for the sake of getting half price hire...

You don't need to belong to club for 1/2 price hire because they don't ever check membership anyway

[Grumph]

You don't need to belong to club for 1/2 price hire because they don't ever check membership anyway

I've seen it checked - people i've been with have had to produce their CAMS/MCI/BEARS membership cards on request.

frequent fliers like yourself, probably not.

[codgyoleracer]

Come to ruapuna on a tuesday or friday - working days you'll note - and explain to me the number of top quality bikes surrounded by tyre warmers and generators, stands and spare wheels.....Who belong to a club for the sake of getting half price hire...

BUT WON'T BLOODY WELL FRONT AT A CLUB DAY.

Given these parasites on the club system, most of what you've written deasn't make sense, sorry.


I dont see why you would compare people that do track day / fun days - to racing at any level ?

Thats like comparing people that go to the local 9 hole par3 course for a "game" of golf , to others that are active members of golf club that participate in competitions.

Two totally differnet avenues of enjoyment to the individual.

[codgyoleracer]

[QUOTE=Grumph;1130682566]Who belong to a club for the sake of getting half price hire...

BUT WON'T BLOODY WELL FRONT AT A CLUB DAY.

Given these parasites on the club system"




I didnt know the club paid the other half of the hireage ?, - is that why these enthusiasts are parasaites ?

If the club doesnt pay anything - then whats the problem with the club having more paying members ?

[Tony.OK]

I dont see why you would compare people that do track day / fun days - to racing at any level ?

Thats like comparing people that go to the local 9 hole par3 course for a "game" of golf , to others that are active members of golf club that participate in competitions.

Two totally differnet avenues of enjoyment to the individual.

And then they read threads like this and get put off altogether...........:rolleyes:

[scracha]

Come to ruapuna on a tuesday or friday - working days you'll note
.

"Working days" ? Working days for many these days include weekends, evenings and nights so perhaps they have Tuesday and/or Friday off.

I don't understand why you're calling club members who don't want to race "parasites". Perhaps they look at the GSXR1000's and Paningales in Clubmans (now there's a class that's became an absolute joke) and think "fuck that for a game of soldiers". Perhaps they fancy a relaxed, relatively inexpensive day where they can bang in 80 laps as opposed to a race day where they'll spend far more to get 20 if they're lucky.

[chucklesby]

Come to ruapuna on a tuesday or friday - working days you'll note - and explain to me the number of top quality bikes surrounded by tyre warmers and generators, stands and spare wheels.....Who belong to a club for the sake of getting half price hire...

BUT WON'T BLOODY WELL FRONT AT A CLUB DAY.

Given these parasites on the club system, most of what you've written deasn't make sense, sorry.

I bet canterbury car club doesn't mind.

I bet mci don't mind either.

so so many reasons why someone would prefer to run some laps midweek.

stupid, uninformed post

[Kickaha]

frequent fliers like yourself, probably not.
I'd be lucky to do 5-6 a year

Perhaps they fancy a relaxed, relatively inexpensive day where they can bang in 80 laps as opposed to a race day where they'll spend far more to get 20 if they're lucky.
Or perhaps they spend $45-50 for club membership never intending to use the club membership for anything more than getting cheaper track hire on Tuesdays and Fridays

[RobGassit]

Doing a trackday on your superbike does not make you an arsehole. Just someone who wants to fang their toy without hitting a Volvo or getting arrested. Chopping other riders up on a trackday however,,, does officially make you an arsehole.

[quickbuck]

Chopping other riders up on a trackday however,,, does officially make you an arsehole.

Oh, so that is what a Track Day Whore is.......











Sent from my Nokia using Tapa talk.

[Grumph]

I bet canterbury car club doesn't mind.

I bet mci don't mind either.

so so many reasons why someone would prefer to run some laps midweek.

stupid, uninformed post

i'm sure canty Car club doesn't care - But MCI and the other local clubs should care because any accident and the car club are going to say "he's one of yours" If the club concerned only knows the person concerned as a subscription - and is told they've been turning up frequently at the track on hire days I'm sure questions would be asked.

I'd like to see the car club supply the 3 local clubs with lists of their members active in hiring. Up to the clubs to formulate a policy as to how people use the memberships. One reason club members get lower rates is because they're seen as experienced and a lower risk....

maybe I'm old fashioned but i thought you joined clubs to participate in the club's activities. i don't give a flying fuck if these guys ride or not - but actually doing some volounteer work for the club would be a nice gesture. Personally i'd say - don't participate with the club activities - pay full hire.

[scracha]

maybe I'm old fashioned but i thought you joined clubs to participate in the club's activities. i don't give a flying fuck if these guys ride or not - but actually doing some volounteer work for the club would be a nice gesture. Personally i'd say - don't participate with the club activities - pay full hire.

Just bump up the club membership price a LOT, then have a large discount for MNZ membership and doing volunteer work, marshalling etc.

[jasonu]

"Working days" ? Working days for many these days include weekends, evenings and nights so perhaps they have Tuesday and/or Friday off.

I don't understand why you're calling club members who don't want to race "parasites". Perhaps they look at the GSXR1000's and Paningales in Clubmans (now there's a class that's always been an absolute joke) and think "fuck that for a game of soldiers". Perhaps they fancy a relaxed, relatively inexpensive day where they can bang in 80 laps as opposed to a race day where they'll spend far more to get 20 if they're lucky.

Fixed it for ya.

[wharfy]

While its only MY opinion and is not necessarily what will happen,

I fully agree with Scrivy on this and before we have to endure more propaganda surrounding crowd attendance,Or lack there of,Who would have thought Paeroa would be down on attendees,I mean there was only the league 9s,Eminem concert and lantern festival going on in AK this weekend,But that wouldn't affect it at all aye? Furthermore,Following the GP at Ruapuna earlier this year,It was discovered the gate take was down around 40%,Further investigation uncovered that the speedway and horse race meetings were suffering similar drops in attendance,So I guess its not just a motorsport thing either.

What really grates my gears are the people that post on these threads who either lack the ability or confidence to compete at National level and yet they expect the general public to rush along to watch 6-8 bikes waddle around on a mostly empty track,Why would they?What happened to the old Kiwi "Give it a go" attitude? Point is,You can make the classes whatever you want,But if theres limited competitors,Then theres not much to get the interest of the general public...Is there


There has to be a burger in the box(Fur,Chicken or otherwise) and at the moment ours appears to have little filling,Its the same old people turning up year in AND you don't see them complaining on these websites,Best attitude I have encountered is John Ross,His attitude is "I don't care where,when or what we race,Somebody has to win and I want to be that person" Until more of the whingers have that same approach and expect everything to arranged in a way that somehow allows them to be competitive,Things are not going to improve.

I don't want the National Points Championship to be a "give it a go" affair I want to see the TOP riders going as fast as they can (without hurting themseleves or each other) There is more racing in New Zeakand than you can poke a stick at - you can race pretty much every month all year round and go nuts during the summer. Without doing the "Nats" There are less than a dozen Superbike riders in the country who can stay on the same lap as the current Champion for 10 laps. Any club rider can check the lap times at their favourite track and see if they would make the 115% cut off time. Thats the reason I don't do the "Nats" - It's not about being affraid of being shown up for what a useless rider I am - I race at The Cemetery Circuit and effectivly have my pants pulled down in front of 15,000 people - It's not a the National Points Championship ! (Just the best "event" on the calander in my opinion) If I thought for a moment I had a reasonable chance of being a top ten finisher (without being lapped) in ANY class at the Nats I might consider entering. But I am a "Club Level Racer" along with most motorcycle racers in the country. The challenge is to get the public to come and watch those dozen riders (and the few TOP riders in other classes) at each round of the Nats if only for the sake of the sponsors - those top rider almost certainly don't give a fuck how many people are watching...(any of them that frequent this site can correct me if I'm wrong about that).

[budda]

It's fark all to do with sacrifices. After food, heating, petrol, child-care, electricity and rent (largely paid to the dads army generation who have a bloody cheek talking about "entitlement" after flogging of most of their country's assetts and accruing large debts for the current generation to pay), most employees have lot less disposable income than back in nineteencanteen. Our sport must make some changes if you want them to spend what little money they have left on motorcycle racing. I'm not saying all classes, I'm not saying ban Ohlins, the greens, my mate Hone nor smacking brats but some sensible cost savings in some classes wouldn't be stupid.


I believe it's more to do with money and taking time off the multiple jobs many have. Put simply, for the majority of club racers, the Nationals requires too much commitment for too little return.


I'm sure that after working hard all week and being left without much disposable income, the knob-jockies would tell dad's army that they're very aware that life isn't fair.

Oh DEAR - all that Prozac must have made me clean forget the 3 paid jobs and all the homers I had to do to finish, in the main, mid-pack ( with the odd success thrown in as a carrot )

I raced a brand-new RM, a front 3 A grade stockcar, drank like a loon AND ran the worlds most expensive girlfriend on $27 a week before tax. An average tradesman back then was on a smidge over $40 - so yes, this fossil knows what it takes to continue doing what you love

OH, yes we DID have telephones, electricity, Landlords and supermarkets back then - just didn't ( well, COULDNT )waste the race budget on cellphones, Ipads, computers, cameras etc etc

The more things change, the more they stay the same ........

[scrivy]

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

So way off topic now........

But............ it reminded me of a poll I did way back in 2009 as to why some don't do the Nats.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/102183-So-why-don-t-you-race-in-the-Nationals

Interesting, I wonder if it's the same now with the economy still shite...... :shifty:

[budda]

It's fark all to do with sacrifices. Our sport must make some changes if you want them to spend what little money they have left on motorcycle racing. I'm not saying all classes, I'm not saying ban Ohlins, the greens, my mate Hone nor smacking brats but some sensible cost savings in some classes wouldn't be stupid.


.

I agree 100% that our SPORT ( 'cos that's what it is ) is not inexpensive ........ but can someone please explain why, when my Commission changed the rules to allow low-cost versions of both 600's and 1000's, Competitors voted with their feet and stayed the hell away ? One guy on a litrebike even wrote in complaining that he would have entered SuperStock1000 if only we allowed him to put a full exhaust on his bike ........... WTF

If the cost of competing is negating any enjoyment you're due, can I suggest Buckets OR 250 Production ( designed from day ONE to be a low start-up and low running cost Class, but now awash with people demanding extra spending be mandated - go figure)

[jellywrestler]

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

So way off topic now........

But............ it reminded me of a poll I did way back in 2009 as to why some don't do the Nats.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/102183-So-why-don-t-you-race-in-the-Nationals

Interesting, I wonder if it's the same now with the economy still shite...... :shifty:

yip and how accurate are polls, take a look at how many people in it are not even involved in road racing or guys that say it's too expensive can't get time off work yet have spent every spare minute of their life getting themselves to the track for over twenty years (you know who that one is scrivy)
fact is while one shouldn't settle on what we've got there certainally hasn't been the big drop in numbers in any class due to these facts. machines getting ou t of date and hard to find when has had a wee impact in the odd area.

[Billy]

In a few words ''abundant awareness of all the niggers in the woodpile''.

If this develops further due process will be followed and the concept is / has been tested and opinions sought to this point.

But didn't you say that somebody within MNZ was already aware of this project when you tested it at Taupo? If so could you please advise who that was,Cause I questioned the President and he informed me that the board members he approached,Claimed to know nothing about it and I know the office were unaware,Care to name them??????

[codgyoleracer]

I agree 100% that our SPORT ( 'cos that's what it is ) is not inexpensive ........ but can someone please explain why, when my Commission changed the rules to allow low-cost versions of both 600's and 1000's, Competitors voted with their feet and stayed the hell away ? One guy on a litrebike even wrote in complaining that he would have entered SuperStock1000 if only we allowed him to put a full exhaust on his bike ........... WTF

If the cost of competing is negating any enjoyment you're due, can I suggest Buckets OR 250 Production ( designed from day ONE to be a low start-up and low running cost Class, but now awash with people demanding extra spending be mandated - go figure)


As I posted previously on here somewhere, IMO It was a mistake to try and introduce/run a class within class in the first place.
My understanding is that there were pressures from a number of angles to not move to a single (stocktype) class only, - so instead a "lets sit on the fence approach" prevailed with the half arsed class within a class idea. This was sold to us on the basis that "we'll let the competitors decide"

The class within class decision made the new stock-class a dead-duck before it even had a chance to ever get going - and the ones that allowed it too happen knew that from the very beginning with political claptrap as usual winning the day.

Its not that hard to work out that any competitor with half a brain would obviously rather continue on with whats sitting in their shed already...........there was never going to be enough new riders to establish the class, and on top of that why would an existing competitor want to switch and invest in a new class when its to be combined within the same field as higher spec bikes ? - Theres is a pretty good chance you'll get lost on the midfield pack and which simply comes across as being less prestigious for riders, spectators and their sponsors.

As i say, whomever proposed the idea - already knew the outcome from the beginning. And to claim that the classes failure was because "the riders decided with their feet and wallets not to support it" is delusional.

[budda]

As I posted previously on here somewhere, IMO It was a mistake to try and introduce/run a class within class in the first place.
My understanding is that there were pressures from a number of angles to not move to a single (stocktype) class only, - so instead a "lets sit on the fence approach" prevailed with the half arsed class within a class idea. This was sold to us on the basis that "we'll let the competitors decide"

The class within class decision made the new stock-class a dead-duck before it even had a chance to ever get going - and the ones that allowed it too happen knew that from the very beginning with political claptrap as usual winning the day.

Its not that hard to work out that any competitor with half a brain would obviously rather continue on with whats sitting in their shed already...........there was never going to be enough new riders to establish the class, and on top of that why would an existing competitor want to switch and invest in a new class when its to be combined within the same field as higher spec bikes ? - Theres is a pretty good chance you'll get lost on the midfield pack and which simply comes across as being less prestigious for riders, spectators and their sponsors.

As i say, whomever proposed the idea - already knew the outcome from the beginning. And to claim that the classes failure was because "the riders decided with their feet and wallets not to support it" is delusional.

Seems you've got the other half of my one-eyed rose-pink glasses

When riders "demand" a set of rules, quoting cost as the reason for it, and then decline to enter saying you wouldn't let us spend enough, what exactly is to be learnt Glenn ?

If you had customers lined up for, lets say a propagating pad for 19.95, saying that's all they could afford to pay, you had 'em made and no bugger bought them because they really wanted the upmarket model, but didn't buy THEM EITHER, how would you proceed ?

For the record, I voted against the idea of combined Classes, but was outnumbered :shutup:

[RobGassit]

Seems you've got the other half of my one-eyed rose-pink glasses

When riders "demand" a set of rules, quoting cost as the reason for it, and then decline to enter saying you wouldn't let us spend enough, what exactly is to be learnt Glenn ?

If you had customers lined up for, lets say a propagating pad for 19.95, saying that's all they could afford to pay, you had 'em made and no bugger bought them because they really wanted the upmarket model, but didn't buy THEM EITHER, how would you proceed

For the record, I voted against the idea of combined Classes, but was outnumbered :shutup:

I had one of those propagating pads when I was a young fella. Did a fair bit of propagating in it too as I remember..

[Tony.OK]

Seems you've got the other half of my one-eyed rose-pink glasses

When riders "demand" a set of rules, quoting cost as the reason for it, and then decline to enter saying you wouldn't let us spend enough, what exactly is to be learnt Glenn ?

If you had customers lined up for, lets say a propagating pad for 19.95, saying that's all they could afford to pay, you had 'em made and no bugger bought them because they really wanted the upmarket model, but didn't buy THEM EITHER, how would you proceed ?

For the record, I voted against the idea of combined Classes, but was outnumbered :shutup:

And it just so happened that NZ finally started feeling the recession at that same time........I'd just bought the new CBR1000 and prepped it for the Superstock class when my work cut us down to 4 day weeks for six months, had a potential Aus sponsor keen too, trouble was I made the bad decision of ticking the bike up which pretty much cocked us up for a couple of years financially.
Another point some may worry about is travelling alone, many Club guys don't have a crew and for me, if I'dve done the Nats it would've been on my own, bit of a daunting thing for a newbie, more so if bike or rider got damaged.
Maybe I just didn't want it bad enough? The Mrs would've let me get financially buried, but at some point common sense prevails when starting racing later in life.

[budda]

I had one of those propagating pads when I was a young fella. Did a fair bit of propagating in it too as I remember..

hard wood and hormone gel ? Or layering ?

[codgyoleracer]

Seems you've got the other half of my one-eyed rose-pink glasses

When riders "demand" a set of rules, quoting cost as the reason for it, and then decline to enter saying you wouldn't let us spend enough, what exactly is to be learnt Glenn ?

If you had customers lined up for, lets say a propagating pad for 19.95, saying that's all they could afford to pay, you had 'em made and no bugger bought them because they really wanted the upmarket model, but didn't buy THEM EITHER, how would you proceed ?

For the record, I voted against the idea of combined Classes, but was outnumbered :shutup:


The glasses are optional :-)

There is of course plenty of arguments against "simpler bikes", but to attempt to introduce such a class with a well established alternative already in place was always going to be tough.

Regarding your propgation pad scenario: The answer of course is do the research properly before you commit to the business plan / production. Correct research virtually eliminates the risk of failure. Redpath of course must consider our competitors products that take a portion of sales from any product line , MNZ on the other hand have no competition and " set" both the terms and the rules................

[The Chow]

hard wood and hormone gel ? Or layering ?


I just be surfing the web for some Ninja 250 go faster goodies and thought man there interesting tuning info plus is some things like cams , slipper clutches , Primary Drive gear , Emulators for Forks , Thought wow may as well go production racing , you are never going to be punished anyway , so may as well throw it all in and go racing.:whistle:

[budda]

The glasses are optional :-)

There is of course plenty of arguments against "simpler bikes", but to attempt to introduce such a class with a well established alternative already in place was always going to be tough.

Regarding your propgation pad scenario: The answer of course is do the research properly before you commit to the business plan / production. Correct research virtually eliminates the risk of failure. Redpath of course must consider our competitors products that take a portion of sales from any product line , MNZ on the other hand have no competition and " set" both the terms and the rules................

What was that, waaaay in the distance ...... aaah, the sound of someone with his hand up ?:dodge:

[steveyb]

MNZ on the other hand have no competition and " set" both the terms and the rules................

Well, no direct competition, but ample in-direct competition, such as those issues mentioned by Tony.OK and all the other avenues for spend of $ and Hrs.

WRG to the Super-classes, in some respects perhaps the road racing market in NZ is still quite 'immature' in that it has basically been a group of enthusiasts for many years simply getting on and doing it as they see fit.
There were small periods in the past where things were much more upscale of course (Marlboro series etc), but we are only now beginning to move into a period where we see more teams and more people investing in the infrastructure that makes the sport look professional (regardless of whether it is or not) to outside observers.
So, perhaps the market was not mature enough at the time to allow both choices to co-exist. Reminds one of young children; if you offer them too many choices they will go crazy!
Are we actually any better off now though? I do think there is a major ego issue in that: What is wrong with running in the middle of the pack of bikes on a Superstock bike if that is what you can afford/have ability to race? Makes no difference to the crowd, really, does it? But if the lower costs (perceived vs real) produce a 25%, 50% increase in grid numbers, isn't that just good? 25-50% is probably very optimistic though.....

[budda]

[QUOTE=codgyoleracer;1130683478]The glasses are optional :-)

Correct research virtually eliminates the risk of failure. QUOTE]

The status of the research ( "correct" or cluster hoohah ) is often decided / dictated by the efficacy of the decision .... many a bad decision has been made with good information, and many a good 'un made against the evidence provided by the masses Glenn

The key is to get more right than not , and to build on the right ones .... obviously you're keen

Look forward to seeing your detailed proposal to move the Sport, as a whole, forward

[Billy]

Well, no direct competition, but ample in-direct competition, such as those issues mentioned by Tony.OK and all the other avenues for spend of $ and Hrs.

WRG to the Super-classes, in some respects perhaps the road racing market in NZ is still quite 'immature' in that it has basically been a group of enthusiasts for many years simply getting on and doing it as they see fit.
There were small periods in the past where things were much more upscale of course (Marlboro series etc), but we are only now beginning to move into a period where we see more teams and more people investing in the infrastructure that makes the sport look professional (regardless of whether it is or not) to outside observers.
So, perhaps the market was not mature enough at the time to allow both choices to co-exist. Reminds one of young children; if you offer them too many choices they will go crazy!
Are we actually any better off now though? I do think there is a major ego issue in that: What is wrong with running in the middle of the pack of bikes on a Superstock bike if that is what you can afford/have ability to race? Makes no difference to the crowd, really, does it? But if the lower costs (perceived vs real) produce a 25%, 50% increase in grid numbers, isn't that just good? 25-25% is probably very optimistic though.....

Actually fun you should mention those percentages at the end,We had a 50% increase in entrants at rounds 1 and 2 of NZSBK by changing the format,Apparently it was all just ridiculous and negative,BUT it got the required results,Too bad the person responsible wasn't supported in a reasonable manner and has since moved on.

[codgyoleracer]

[QUOTE=codgyoleracer;1130683478]The glasses are optional :-)

Correct research virtually eliminates the risk of failure. QUOTE]

The status of the research ( "correct" or cluster hoohah ) is often decided / dictated by the efficacy of the decision .... many a bad decision has been made with good information, and many a good 'un made against the evidence provided by the masses Glenn

The key is to get more right than not , and to build on the right ones .... obviously you're keen

Look forward to seeing your detailed proposal to move the Sport, as a whole, forward


I will do some research , and advise what the going rate is for an experienced consultant ....... :-)
On the other hand, payment can be made in peanuts - but research results will be similar to a chimp ( but at least we can name it cheetah) :-)

[budda]

[QUOTE=budda;1130683512]


I will do some research , and advise what the going rate is for an experienced consultant ....... :-)
On the other hand, payment can be made in peanuts - but research results will be similar to a chimp ( but at least we can name it cheetah) :-)

Hang on a minute - don't Chimps stick their fingers in the Purple Starfish and flick eeeeew at visitors?
Sounds like a few I can think of ...........:rolleyes:

[wharfy]

Just because I can - I did a quick count from mylaps for the entries for the first two rounds
Oh, and all the superbikes finished on the same lap - so there is more than the dozen I usually quote - even in the 20 lap GP :)

Ruapuna
250 proddy 17
development 15
pro twins 12
supebikes 17
supersport 20
superlite/125 23

Timaru
250 proddy 16
development 20
pro twins 12
superbikes 16
supersport 20
superlite/125 20

[The Chow]

Actually fun you should mention those percentages at the end,We had a 50% increase in entrants at rounds 1 and 2 of NZSBK by changing the format,Apparently it was all just ridiculous and negative,BUT it got the required results,Too bad the person responsible wasn't supported in a reasonable manner and has since moved on. Thanks for your efforts Billy , Budda and so many who have done work in the sport who have gone before , all for free and for other people's enjoyment. Time for others to step up. By the way the commissioner isn't voted on it is an appointment , so better start kissing some arses at MNZ if you want the job.:drinkup:

[ellipsis]

so better start kissing some arses at MNZ if you want the job.:drinkup:

...'entrenched', was one of the words Robert Taylor used to describe mnz's M.O...you coined it better...you didn't mention sucking dicks or not rocking the boat...

[jellywrestler]

Just because I can - I did a quick count from mylaps for the entries for the first two rounds
Oh, and all the superbikes finished on the same lap - so there is more than the dozen I usually quote - even in the 20 lap GP :)

Ruapuna
250 proddy 17
development 15
pro twins 12
supebikes 17
supersport 20
superlite/125 23

Timaru
250 proddy 16
development 20
pro twins 12
superbikes 16
supersport 20
superlite/125 20
and nout about sidecars you racist.....

[Billy]

and nout about sidecars you racist.....

Nor clubmans or Posties at round 1 AND Mylaps is results not entries

[RobGassit]

MNZ could find itself in a similar position to Motorcycling Australia. How important is the FIM affiliation? If it's easier, cheaper and more fun to run racing outside the Circus tent, who will bother to pay to get in the tent to see the monkeys and the elephant? Dirt riders have found their own way to run their sport.

[budda]

If it's easier, cheaper and more fun to run racing outside the Circus tent, who will bother to pay to get in the tent to see the monkeys and the elephant?SOME Dirt riders have found their own way to run their sport.

Easier, cheaper and MORE FUN TO RUN RACING......... now THATS the voice of experience !!!!

[roogazza]

MNZ could find itself in a similar position to Motorcycling Australia. How important is the FIM affiliation? If it's easier, cheaper and more fun to run racing outside the Circus tent, who will bother to pay to get in the tent to see the monkeys and the elephant? Dirt riders have found their own way to run their sport.


Easier, cheaper and MORE FUN TO RUN RACING......... now THATS the voice of experience !!!!

Rule changes !!!! I hate 'rules' and I was a cop for a living !
How we change huh ?
If it wasn't for trying to find a champion for a particular year, big changes could survive our sport .
294149

[wharfy]

and nout about sidecars you racist.....

sidecars 12 most humble apologies to the sidecar teams it was an oversight


Nor clubmans or Posties at round 1 AND Mylaps is results not entries

Yeah I deliberately didn't include them, and I know mylaps isn't entries but it gives an indication of how many bikes got onto the track -

It was just to show that there are in fact quite a few bikes out there and I don't think anything would be gained by adding another 6 or 7 to the superbike field (for example) if they were going to be lapped - not saying anyone who WANTS to shouldn't "have a go" as long as they are not going to cause any pain.

[Billy]

sidecars 12 most humble apologies to the sidecar teams it was an oversight



Yeah I deliberately didn't include them, and I know mylaps isn't entries but it gives an indication of how many bikes got onto the track -

It was just to show that there are in fact quite a few bikes out there and I don't think anything would be gained by adding another 6 or 7 to the superbike field (for example) if they were going to be lapped - not saying anyone who WANTS to shouldn't "have a go" as long as they are not going to cause any pain.

Okay,I just wondered why you left out the Posties which were a National class this year and yet included Development class which was not.As you were

[Billy]

Rule changes !!!! I hate 'rules' and I was a cop for a living !
How we change huh ?
If it wasn't for trying to find a champion for a particular year, big changes could survive our sport .
294149

Yip,

Don't necessarily disagree re the rules being a pain and the oddest thing is,People want them enforced when its about somebody else,But when its about them all of a sudden it doesn't matter so much,It would be much simpler to just have formula classes with capacity and fuel rules only,Think back to the 70s when all the meetings had the usual 500,350,250 racing and then a "B" grade class and if I remember correctly,The "B" grade class was the biggest and where the most fun was had.

[Shaun Harris]

Yip,

Don't necessarily disagree re the rules being a pain and the oddest thing is,People want them enforced when its about somebody else,But when its about them all of a sudden it doesn't matter so much,It would be much simpler to just have formula classes with capacity and fuel rules only,Think back to the 70s when all the meetings had the usual 500,350,250 racing and then a "B" grade class and if I remember correctly,The "B" grade class was the biggest and where the most fun was had.






F2 an F1 YES Baby bring it on

[budda]

Yip,

Don't necessarily disagree re the rules being a pain and the oddest thing is,People want them enforced when its about somebody else,But when its about them all of a sudden it doesn't matter so much,It would be much simpler to just have formula classes with capacity and fuel rules only,Think back to the 70s when all the meetings had the usual 500,350,250 racing and then a "B" grade class and if I remember correctly,The "B" grade class was the biggest and where the most fun was had.

Only the 2 Classes when I started - With lights and Without ........ remember being flat out down the straight, crawling under the paint on the tank on my 125, and P McLachlan went past on the mighty TZ and changed up 4 times !!!!! God, I wanted one .......

Our CURRENT structure has evolved through successive people ( me included ) trying to be "fair":no::laugh::eek:

[budda]

F2 an F1 YES Baby bring it on

Ask any Commission member who was at the Brentwood meeting exactly what I proposed Shaun:bleh:

[Billy]

Our CURRENT structure has evolved through successive people ( me included ) trying to be "fair":no::laugh::eek:

Right there is where we all went wrong,

Those at the coalface who KNOW whats going on,Are time and again let down by the handwringers/Do gooders who try to justify their free lunches.

[Billy]

Rulechanges,

Due to a change in my personal circumstances,I will not be handling ANY proposed rulechanges going forward,Please ensure all rulechange proposals are sent directly to Monique@mnz.co.nz for whomever maybe my replacement to deal with,From now through to the MNZ AGM,I will only be dealing with NZSBK and the normal day to day running of the commission business.

[jellywrestler]

"B" grade class and if I remember correctly,The "B" grade class was the biggest and where the most fun was had. unless you're Glen Holden and word has it it was behind the pit sheds at the six hour...

[Billy]

unless you're Glen Holden and word has it it was behind the pit sheds at the six hour...

Haha,Yea I guess we all realised about then he wasn't quite as committed to racing as his bro and the results speak for themselves,You only get out,What you put in....Err excuse the pun!!!

[budda]

Haha,Yea I guess we all realised about then he wasn't quite as committed to racing as his bro and the results speak for themselves,You only get out,What you put in....Err excuse the pun!!!

And if you're "lucky", you'll get back little tiny bits more than you put in, 'specially in cousinmarryin country:eek:

[steveyb]

- on my 125, :


Bullshit!! You + 125? Can't see it....... :not:

[budda]

Bullshit!! You + 125? Can't see it....... :not:

Cant drive a 8" nail with a tack hammer :no:

[codgyoleracer]

Yip,

Don't necessarily disagree re the rules being a pain and the oddest thing is,People want them enforced when its about somebody else,But when its about them all of a sudden it doesn't matter so much,It would be much simpler to just have formula classes with capacity and fuel rules only,Think back to the 70s when all the meetings had the usual 500,350,250 racing and then a "B" grade class and if I remember correctly,The "B" grade class was the biggest and where the most fun was had.


You be talkin about clean slate stuff thar Billy .................. Now just settle down young fellah

[codgyoleracer]

What is wrong with running in the middle of the pack of bikes on a Superstock bike if that is what you can afford/have ability to race? Makes no difference to the crowd, really, does it? .....


Now now - Stephen, you are sounding like one of those parents that keep telling their children thats its ok just to compete, and not strive to win, The REAL world begs to differ :-)

[codgyoleracer]

Cant drive a 8" nail with a tack hammer :no:

I'll tape some wheel weights to your phat arse if you like ? :-)

[budda]

I'll tape some wheel weights to your phat arse if you like ? :-)

'long as you're not offering to , ahem, "glue" 'em on, Sunshine Boy:sick:

[gammaguy]

I just be surfing the web for some Ninja 250 go faster goodies and thought man there interesting tuning info plus is some things like cams , slipper clutches , Primary Drive gear , Emulators for Forks , Thought wow may as well go production racing , you are never going to be punished anyway , so may as well throw it all in and go racing.:whistle:

Perfect example of the escalating cost of racing


Back in the day those guys on the LC s never had to buy cams:innocent:

[wharfy]

Now now - Stephen, you are sounding like one of those parents that keep telling their children thats its ok just to compete, and not strive to win, The REAL world begs to differ :-)

Well that's me :) luckily there is tons of club racing for me to "participate" in. The "Nats" is to find the champions :)

[budda]

Perfect example of the escalating cost of racing


Back in the day those guys on the LC s never had to buy cams:innocent:

but those TZ bearings weren't cheap ..........

[steveyb]

Now now - Stephen, you are sounding like one of those parents that keep telling their children thats its ok just to compete, and not strive to win, The REAL world begs to differ :-)

I know just what you mean, but no, that is not the sentiment I was getting at.

I espouse a meritocracy, that sport is about eliteism, not just participation. BUT, there is no justification for setting up systems that exclude those that are not elite. Not to say that our current system does that.
But there is also a case to be made where some that believe they are not elite only find out via participation at some level that is appropriate to them (equipment, size, cost etc), that in fact they are not far off and can become elite if they just do a bit more (training, weight loss, coaching, equipment etc).
There is ample anecdotal evidence of this where some bloke turns up saying, "Oh, I'm no good, just came along to have a go" then goes out and does well.
Furthermore, at the end of the day, how does the elite competitor ever know they are elite if they never "Give it a go", come last, then mid-pack, then first?

I fully believe in the elite end being supported, but simultaneously believe that the system in which they compete should be designed so that non-elite competitors (which of course includes the novice elite) can also be involved.
As an example in NZSBK, I think that everyone would probably agree that Gaydor (I mean Jayden) H is one of our young elite racers. BUT, if you took only his results this NZSBK season so far into account, you would have to conclude he is no more than a feild filler, which we know he is not. So, at the end of the day it is all relative.
We would all believe that, say WSBK/MotoGP 18th place getter is pretty elite (in general terms), but relative to their environment they are no more than feild fillers.

Be cool to be a feild filler in MotoGP huh?

Make the link?

[codgyoleracer]

I know just what you mean, but no, that is not the sentiment I was getting at.

I espouse a meritocracy, that sport is about eliteism, not just participation. BUT, there is no justification for setting up systems that exclude those that are not elite. Not to say that our current system does that.
But there is also a case to be made where some that believe they are not elite only find out via participation at some level that is appropriate to them (equipment, size, cost etc), that in fact they are not far off and can become elite if they just do a bit more (training, weight loss, coaching, equipment etc).
There is ample anecdotal evidence of this where some bloke turns up saying, "Oh, I'm no good, just came along to have a go" then goes out and does well.
Furthermore, at the end of the day, how does the elite competitor ever know they are elite if they never "Give it a go", come last, then mid-pack, then first?

I fully believe in the elite end being supported, but simultaneously believe that the system in which they compete should be designed so that non-elite competitors (which of course includes the novice elite) can also be involved.
As an example in NZSBK, I think that everyone would probably agree that Gaydor (I mean Jayden) H is one of our young elite racers. BUT, if you took only his results this NZSBK season so far into account, you would have to conclude he is no more than a feild filler, which we know he is not. So, at the end of the day it is all relative.
We would all believe that, say WSBK/MotoGP 18th place getter is pretty elite (in general terms), but relative to their environment they are no more than feild fillers.

Be cool to be a feild filler in MotoGP huh?

Make the link?


I would accept finishing 10th in Moto GP :-), dreams are free, and yes we were all slow once (unless you are an alien of course, whos careers appear to be full of 1st, 2nds, & 3rds from the day they were born). My point still exists though in that the goal to be at the pointy end is a good one as it teaches a determination for self improvement. The PC attitude of blowing wind up some young fellas or girls arse when results dont come, or if they get the " poor baby" response when tanty's are thrown - Aint gonna work too well in the race scene.

Racing is very much cause and effect, and looking inward or teaching someone to look inward generally gains the best result.

You mentioned jayden H, and whilst his results are what they are - i believe one of his strengths like any top racer will be that he HATES losing and LOVES winning. Running a stock bike is a Supersport class isnt going to easily generate the winning feeling, thats all i am saying.

[codgyoleracer]

but those TZ bearings weren't cheap ..........

Thats the wrong " B " word, dont you mean barrels ?

[budda]

Thats the wrong " B " word, dont you mean barrels ?

Read into it what you will, young fellow. MOST variations were tried ..........

[Billy]

Read into it what you will, young fellow. MOST variations were tried ..........

Its all lies anyway,Those who have been around long enough will remember 1 slightly elderly,But still very fast gent from the Egmont area had the fastest LC by a long shot and all they found when they disqualified him for 12 months,Was a rubber snorkel missing out of the airbox.........Mind you,They only took the seat off and saw that and he was gone !!!!!!! a far cry from how the CHEATS are treated in todays society it seems.

[The Chow]

Its all lies anyway,Those who have been around long enough will remember 1 slightly elderly,But still very fast gent from the Egmont area had the fastest LC by a long shot and all they found when they disqualified him for 12 months,Was a rubber snorkel missing out of the airbox.........Mind you,They only took the seat off and saw that and he was gone !!!!!!! a far cry from how the CHEATS are treated in todays society it seems. and a certain motorcycle shop owner in wellington who was also kicked out due to the new RD350 beating the Kawasaki H2's at Gracefeild. Man they sold some RD's after that , but he was out for 12 months. Mind you there are plenty of other cases known that weren't punished over the years Billy. So I guess no difference now really :weep:

[Billy]

and a certain motorcycle shop owner in wellington who was also kicked out due to the new RD350 beating the Kawasaki H2's at Gracefeild. Man they sold some RD's after that , but he was out for 12 months. Mind you there are plenty of other cases known that weren't punished over the years Billy. So I guess no difference now really :weep:

Yip,Even some for having metal removed,Doesn't mean they weren't cheating though

[Robert Taylor]

Perfect example of the escalating cost of racing


Back in the day those guys on the LC s never had to buy cams:innocent:

Humbug, the cost of racing in real terms is probably not so different to what it has been for decades. There has always been financial sacrifice involved.

The classes as they are dont need a lot of massaging, just a better pathway to learn riding and setup skills before riders graduate to 600s and Superbikes.

If racing is seen as so unaffordable how come we field grids as big as they are in the two premier classes? Per capita............

[Robert Taylor]

Okay,I just wondered why you left out the Posties which were a National class this year and yet included Development class which was not.As you were

And there is a LOT of money spent on those bikes.