Electric bikes head to head against petrol power on the Isle of Man

[rustyrobot]

I reckon this signals the beginning of a very interesting time for bike racing.

The 2014 Southern 100 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_100) (road race on Isle of Man) will see an electric bike (http://darvillracing.co.uk/) running head-to-head against internal combustion in the standard competition.


The ACU (governing body of motorcycle races in the United Kingdom, Channel Islands, and Isle of Man) along with the Southern 100 Club (the organization behind the Southern 100 road race on the Isle of Man) have seen it fit to allow electric motorcycles to compete alongside petrol-powered machines at this year’s Southern 100 road race.

- http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/racing/electric-motorcycles-southern-100/
- http://darvillracing.co.uk/

293807

I haven't been this excited about electric tech since the Saudi's replaced their child camel jockeys with robots.

[James Deuce]

Lol. This will end well. Are they bringing 80cc two strokes back to compete against them?

[bogan]

Neat! Bets on how long it'll be before the curmudgeonly blokes are all making excuses why the electrics are so quick but gas is still better?

[AllanB]

Neat! Bets on how long it'll be before the curmudgeonly blokes are all making excuses why the electrics are so quick but gas is still better?

Is Ed selling bikes yet ................

[James Deuce]

If a vehicle isn't capable of producing consistent energy output across its projected range, then it is an irritating deviation of resources from actual progress. Battery technology is not the way of the future. Electric motive force is vastly better than an IC but batteries52 are not the way forward. There is no electric engined battery powered vehicle that I can use to commute the 76km (152km round trip) to work with a 12 hour tunraround, door to door, at an average speed of 60km/hr.

[skinman]

not mention the upfront cost of batteries that have a decent output

[rustyrobot]

There is no electric engined battery powered vehicle that I can use to commute the 76km (152km round trip) to work with a 12 hour tunraround, door to door, at an average speed of 60km/hr.

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160hp horsepower, 120 lbs•ft of torque across the rev range, and 17 kWh battery pack, which Mission says is good for a 200 mile range (140 mile real world) and a 150 mph top speed. With two on-board chargers (Level-2 J1772 and a standard 120v plug), Mission says it can pump up to 9 KW into the Mission RS, which should be good for close to a two-hour recharge time.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WypZvsIj8-k

Buuuuuuut.... it's $59,0000 USD

[jonbuoy]

If a vehicle isn't capable of producing consistent energy output across its projected range, then it is an irritating deviation of resources from actual progress. Battery technology is not the way of the future. Electric motive force is vastly better than an IC but batteries52 are not the way forward. There is no electric engined battery powered vehicle that I can use to commute the 76km (152km round trip) to work with a 12 hour tunraround, door to door, at an average speed of 60km/hr.


I don´t think anyone can say battery technology isn´t the way forward - current technology say a Nissan leaf has a 24 kWh battery pack - the Petrol equivalent Nissan note has 270 kWh of energy in its fuel tank. I think its possible to one day make a 270 kWh battery pack that weighs the same as a 10 gallon fuel tank and could be swapped or dumped with charge within a few minutes. Maybe not with current battery technology, back in the 1900´s the first electric cars had only 2 kWh battery packs - maybe it will take another 100 years to do it but there is no evidence to say it cant be done.

[James Deuce]

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WypZvsIj8-k

Buuuuuuut.... it's $59,0000 USD

Watch them cringe and back out of the deal when I show them the Rimutakas and typical commuter traffic.

[James Deuce]

I don´t think anyone can say battery technology isn´t the way forward - current technology say a Nissan leaf has a 24 kWh battery pack - the Petrol equivalent Nissan note has 270 kWh of energy in its fuel tank. I think its possible to one day make a 270 kWh battery pack that weighs the same as a 10 gallon fuel tank and could be swapped or dumped with charge within a few minutes. Maybe not with current battery technology, back in the 1900´s the first electric cars had only 2 kWh battery packs - maybe it will take another 100 years to do it but there is no evidence to say it cant be done.

Battery technology is horribly expensive and built on the back of 6 year olds digging rare earth elements out of clay with a teaspoon.

[jonbuoy]

Battery technology is horribly expensive and built on the back of 6 year olds digging rare earth elements out of clay with a teaspoon.

Ethically speaking so is pretty much every single electronic device.

[James Deuce]

Which doesn't invalidate my point.

[jonbuoy]

Which doesn't invalidate my point.

Is that the only thing you have against battery power?

[rustyrobot]

Ethically speaking so is pretty much every single electronic device.

I agree, but I also don't think we want to get into scrutinising the ethical or social impact of any of our energy sources too much. If ethics was an issue I suspect there'd be relatively little oil available for the western world right now.

I think your moving against the flow of human nature James, for the exact reason that it can't yet be done, people will continue to push against and through those boundaries for electrical locomotion. What if the roads were paved in a semi conductive substance and some form of wireless energy transmission was possible?

"Computers in the future may weigh no more than one-and-a-half tonnes."
- Popular Mechanics, 1949

[bogan]

Watch them cringe and back out of the deal when I show them the Rimutakas and typical commuter traffic.

Hehe, the curmudgeonly excuses didn't take long at all :laugh:

The Tesla S has a range of around 500km by the way, pretty sure that'll be enough for a 150km commute over the rimutakas and back.

[James Deuce]

I agree, but I also don't think we want to get into scrutinising the ethical or social impact of any of our energy sources too much. If ethics was an issue I suspect there'd be relatively little oil available for the western world right now.

I think your moving against the flow of human nature James, for the exact reason that it can't yet be done, people will continue to push against and through those boundaries for electrical locomotion. What if the roads were paved in a semi conductive substance and some form of wireless energy transmission was possible?

"Computers in the future may weigh no more than one-and-a-half tonnes."
- Popular Mechanics, 1949

However unlike computer technology, battery technology has stagnated and you have to consider the massive expensive and potential ecological damage for discarding battery packs that struggle to last 5 years. Yes, density has gone up, but so has heat, necessitating power sapping cooling gear including radiators.

And computers did get down to that weight within 15 years. Just because history looks like a compressed timeframe because you didn't experience it directly, doesn't invalidate the point. It's easy to laugh at history. It's much harder to learn from it, and to date, no mode of transport that doesn't carry its source of energy generation with it has proven successful in the long run.

I'm not against "electrical locomotion" and I;ve already stated that, but as is usual for these sorts of discussion you've already made up your mind what I "believe". I'm a science proponent and electric vehicle manufacturers are unable to replicate their speed vs. distance figures in the real world. If a premise isn't demonstrable through repition, it isn't science.

[James Deuce]

Hehe, the curmudgeonly excuses didn't take long at all :laugh:

The Tesla S has a range of around 500km by the way, pretty sure that'll be enough for a 150km commute over the rimutakas and back.

And where would I recharge it in NZ? Should my employer bear the cost? Where would I find the 3 phase infrastructure? I can guarantee it would not be capable of sustaining 100 km/hr on the return trip. No one who drives on of these things enthusiastically ever has anything nice to say about range.

[bogan]

And where would I recharge it in NZ? Should my employer bear the cost? Where would I find the 3 phase infrastructure? I can guarantee it would not be capable of sustaining 100 km/hr on the return trip. No one who drives on of these things enthusiastically ever has anything nice to say about range.

More curmudgeonly excuses. You said commuter run, driving it in such a way as to deliberately run the batteries flat is not a commuter run (and still up for debate anyway as there is 3x the theoretical range). I mean you could just a well drive it into a tree and say, hey, this pos can't make the journey. So get 3 phase power wired up, jeez, hardly a fucking showstopper if you're shelling out 100k for a car.

Bottom line, what you said hadn't been made, has.

[James Deuce]

Hang on, how did I get drawn into a discussion about electric cars. We were talking about bikes and commuting. Electric ones.

[bogan]

Hang on, how did I get drawn into a discussion about electric cars. We were talking about bikes and commuting. Electric ones.

We were talking about racing electric vehicles, then you went off on a bit of a tangent with this:


There is no electric engined battery powered vehicle that I can use to commute the 76km (152km round trip) to work with a 12 hour tunraround, door to door, at an average speed of 60km/hr.

Nothing in there saying it had to be a bike.

[rustyrobot]

as is usual for these sorts of discussion you've already made up your mind what I "believe". I'm a science proponent and electric vehicle manufacturers are unable to replicate their speed vs. distance figures in the real world. If a premise isn't demonstrable through repition, it isn't science.

I'm not trying to tell you what you believe. Just a mis-communication on my part perhaps. To be honest I haven't looked too deeply into validating the claims of electric motorcycle manufacturers, so I may be a little naive on that front.

Have batteries really stagnated that much? Could it be that it is a similar (but opposite) effect to what you describe as the compressed timeframe. When one lives through a period, it seems a lot longer than it will to others either side of your existence.

I'm not some fanatical proponent of batteries or electric vehicles. They hold a lot of exciting possibilities and I am genuinely very interested to see how they develop, but I'm also addicted to the explosive power of my V-twin. I do expect the cost of fuelling it to continue to increase though.

Commuting aside, I still believe that electric bikes will be competing at the same level as IC motorcycles within our lifetimes. They may not carry all of their energy generation with them (not sure how much regenerative braking would be used in a race situation) but we are clearly at the point where a full charge can last a standard race length.

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[jonbuoy]

A battery is just a way of storing energy - just as a fuel tank currently is, at the moment a lot are based on rare earth metals. That could all change overnight with a breakthrough nano/bio technology.

[Henk]

The thing that gets me with electric vehicles and the current state of play is the fact that batteries are an energy storage device nothing more. This makes me see them as a bit of a greenwash. Instead of burning petrol where you are you are effectively burning coal at Huntly instead.
Regenerative braking will help and possibly mass market power generation is cleaner than IC engines but there is a big difference between cleaner and clean.

And yes I realise this has nothing to do with racing.

[AllanB]

Logically speaking battery technology will advance rapidly if solar technology goes in a similar way then ones vehicle would be covered in solar 'panels' to assist charging - and could not the rotation of the wheels also be set up to be producing a charge back into the battery pack.

Fair comment re employer paying for the recharge - maybe part of your salary package.

[tobbera]

I think both Tesla S and Tesla Roadster would cope with that commute very well.


If a vehicle isn't capable of producing consistent energy output across its projected range, then it is an irritating deviation of resources from actual progress. Battery technology is not the way of the future. Electric motive force is vastly better than an IC but batteries52 are not the way forward. There is no electric engined battery powered vehicle that I can use to commute the 76km (152km round trip) to work with a 12 hour tunraround, door to door, at an average speed of 60km/hr.

[jonbuoy]

If a vehicle isn't capable of producing consistent energy output across its projected range, then it is an irritating deviation of resources from actual progress. Battery technology is not the way of the future. Electric motive force is vastly better than an IC but batteries52 are not the way forward. There is no electric engined battery powered vehicle that I can use to commute the 76km (152km round trip) to work with a 12 hour tunraround, door to door, at an average speed of 60km/hr.

Actually Jim this would be very close to doing it and might even do the whole lot on one charge, would easily do it with a top up at work. Give it another 5 years and the range will have crept up to your commute - no recharge.

http://www.brammo.com/empulse_specifications/

[felixx]

Maybe when the green party get into government ( :killingme ) they will amend the policy of 15yr to pay off solar panels into 15 years to solar panel equip your bike.

[Naki Rat]

The thing that gets me with electric vehicles and the current state of play is the fact that batteries are an energy storage device nothing more. This makes me see them as a bit of a greenwash. Instead of burning petrol where you are you are effectively burning coal at Huntly instead.
......We have intentions of purchasing a PHEV Mitsubishi Outlander (http://mitsubishi-media.co.uk/release/763/) which are due for NZ release in the next few weeks. A big part of the attraction of a plug-in electric vehicle for us is the 5.2 kW of solar panels we have next to our house. Like having our own petrol station, and with some tinkering we hope the 12kW onboard battery will be able to store daytime generation to contribute towards useage in the house at night. And yes our particular daily work/vehicle use will be compatible with such use. :niceone:

[ricardohardo]

However unlike computer technology, battery technology has stagnated and you have to consider the massive expensive and potential ecological damage for discarding battery packs that struggle to last 5 years. Yes, density has gone up, but so has heat, necessitating power sapping cooling gear including radiators.

And computers did get down to that weight within 15 years. Just because history looks like a compressed timeframe because you didn't experience it directly, doesn't invalidate the point. It's easy to laugh at history. It's much harder to learn from it, and to date, no mode of transport that doesn't carry its source of energy generation with it has proven successful in the long run.

I'm not against "electrical locomotion" and I;ve already stated that, but as is usual for these sorts of discussion you've already made up your mind what I "believe". I'm a science proponent and electric vehicle manufacturers are unable to replicate their speed vs. distance figures in the real world. If a premise isn't demonstrable through repition, it isn't science.

Bla bla bla .... You only need to revert back 10 yrs to be made aware of the exponential shift in digital technology of which has been driven by consumer demand....add 5 years of focus and demand for battery powered vehicles and you'll be reverting back to this post thinking....why am I such a wet blanket ....get excited


.

[manxkiwi]

I reckon this signals the beginning of a very interesting time for bike racing.

I think they've been racing electric bikes against petrol bikes in the States for a couple of years now. Electric having won a number of events.

Will be good to see them compete on a 'short' road circuit over a number of laps, against the petrol bikes. The one lap TT event doesn't have bikes side by side, braking into and accelerating out of corners etc. and is of course electric only.

[Hoon]

They've been racing electric bikes at IOMTT for a few years now but in their own class and they only race 1 lap (vs 4 for petrol)? The MotoCysz guy has a pretty sexy bike in there and has been winning the last few years. There is a good doco on it called Charged (http://www.autoevolution.com/news/charge-the-electric-bike-at-isle-of-man-tt-documentary-video-59878.html). It's on Netflix if you have it.

It's great to see the technology being developed and the results (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TT_Zero) are showing steady improvements every year but they are still down 15-20mph ave on the big bikes. I wouldn't have expected to see them going head to head for a few more years yet.

Energy storage is what's really holding up the whole electric/solar/renewable energy thing and the more people putting their heads towards a solution the better. I do agree that battery tech has near reached its potential and we are in major need of a technological leap but this doesn't mean we should put the whole electric thing on hold until it arrives. As the people out there doing it already have found, there is a lot of progress that can be made elsewhere.

EV is still not profitable yet but it's almost at the tipping point where it could be and that's when you'll start seeing the major players jumping in with their big R&D dollars as they make a play to increase their market share before their competitors do.

[Thomo84]

could not the rotation of the wheels also be set up to be producing a charge back into the battery pack.

Interesting point. I think the development of battery and solar technology go hand in hand with regards to electric bikes