Ah "silent T' you're the man for me!

[carbonhed]

Cuntlippes is at it again. Lives in a 2.5 million dollar mansion in the best street in Herne Bay, D'auckland. Has a family income knocking around $700,000 per annum. Claims "reasonably middle-range existence". :facepalm:

Where does Labour find these shitheads?

http://www.3news.co.nz/Cunliffe-hiding-25M-mansion-from-voters--Key/tabid/1607/articleID/332573/Default.aspx

[skippa1]

Cuntlippes is at it again. Lives in a 2.5 million dollar mansion in the best street in Herne Bay, D'auckland. Has a family income knocking around $700,000 per annum. Claims "reasonably middle-range existence". :facepalm:

Where does Labour find these shitheads?

http://www.3news.co.nz/Cunliffe-hiding-25M-mansion-from-voters--Key/tabid/1607/articleID/332573/Default.aspx
They seem to have a bag full of these fuckers

[MisterD]

It's funny as hell that the party membership and Unions have saddled caucus with this numpty.

**edit**

Wait, there's more - apparently he said he'd "rather live in New Lynn"...:killingme

[James Deuce]

The 1% always try to identify with their electorate.

[mashman]

It's like Hogwarts. They each put on a pointed cone shaped hat marked with a letter D (Dogwarts I assume)... then the hat speaks and in this case: MP, Labour. PM candidate. As it was for Johnny boy: MP, National. PM. Personally I don't think the hat talks at all and it's just some guy with a microphone hiding behind an emerald curtain. So you can't blame them really, blame the silly hat.

[oldrider]

The real numpties are the ones that vote for them! :rolleyes:

[Banditbandit]

Cuntlippes is at it again. Lives in a 2.5 million dollar mansion in the best street in Herne Bay, D'auckland. Has a family income knocking around $700,000 per annum. Claims "reasonably middle-range existence". :facepalm:

Where does Labour find these shitheads?

http://www.3news.co.nz/Cunliffe-hiding-25M-mansion-from-voters--Key/tabid/1607/articleID/332573/Default.aspx

And if he was living in a state house with bugger all income you would criticise him for being a loser and not worth voting for ..

[HenryDorsetCase]

Cuntlippes is at it again. Lives in a 2.5 million dollar mansion in the best street in Herne Bay, D'auckland. Has a family income knocking around $700,000 per annum. Claims "reasonably middle-range existence". :facepalm:

Where does Labour find these shitheads?

http://www.3news.co.nz/Cunliffe-hiding-25M-mansion-from-voters--Key/tabid/1607/articleID/332573/Default.aspx

Well, in Herne Bay, clearly.

[Swoop]

Labour must be desirable to get into, since the reporter chap wants to become a politician...

The TVNZ debacle over it being a political mouthpiece is out in the news.

As said many times before, TVNZ must be sold off and privatised to ensure a neutral position in the media spectrum, rather than being a political propaganda machine.

[merv]

So he's just like a National Party MP, funny that, so how can right-wingers criticise him when he may as well be one of theirs?

[HenryDorsetCase]

Labour must be desirable to get into, since the reporter chap wants to become a politician...

The TVNZ debacle over it being a political mouthpiece is out in the news.

As said many times before, TVNZ must be sold off and privatised to ensure a neutral position in the media spectrum, rather than being a political propaganda machine.

Yes because then there will be zero independent news except what the lackeys and flunkies and PR drones and lobbyists sell to the highest bidder.


Al Jazeera and BBC excepted of course.


and Fox News which is my favourite

and Page 3.com

[carbonhed]

And if he was living in a state house with bugger all income you would criticise him for being a loser and not worth voting for ..

Absolutely but I'm not criticising him for being filthy rich now am I? I'm criticising him for being a dishonest little shitbag... over and over and over again... and being stupid enough to get caught over and over and over again.

[Mike.Gayner]

Labour must be desirable to get into, since the reporter chap wants to become a politician...

The TVNZ debacle over it being a political mouthpiece is out in the news.

As said many times before, TVNZ must be sold off and privatised to ensure a neutral position in the media spectrum, rather than being a political propaganda machine.

Why would being a private entity make it more neutral? Considering your complaint is that they are backing the opposition, it's clearly not the fact that they're government owned that's causing the supposed bias.

[James Deuce]

Labour must be desirable to get into, since the reporter chap wants to become a politician...

The TVNZ debacle over it being a political mouthpiece is out in the news.

As said many times before, TVNZ must be sold off and privatised to ensure a neutral position in the media spectrum, rather than being a political propaganda machine.

I feel sorry for him, he seems to have been picked on. National have how many people at Fairfax working for them?

[oldrider]

Labour must be desirable to get into, since the reporter chap wants to become a politician...

The TVNZ debacle over it being a political mouthpiece is out in the news.

As said many times before, TVNZ must be sold off and privatised to ensure a neutral position in the media spectrum, rather than being a political propaganda machine.

Some of Miriama Kamu's comments need to be checked out for political bias while they are at it .. she lost respect from this family because of it! :nono:

[mashman]

Yes because then there will be zero independent news except what the lackeys and flunkies and PR drones and lobbyists sell to the highest bidder.


Al Jazeera and BBC excepted of course.


and Fox News which is my favourite

and Page 3.com

Add RT to the exceptions.

[Banditbandit]

As said many times before, TVNZ must be sold off and privatised to ensure a neutral position in the media spectrum, rather than being a political propaganda machine.

Just like Fox News is ... and the BBC and PBS are not ???

And it is clearly demonstrable that our news media supports the capitalist agendas anyway ... how neutral is that ??



Absolutely but I'm not criticising him for being filthy rich now am I? I'm criticising him for being a dishonest little shitbag... over and over and over again... and being stupid enough to get caught over and over and over again.

Just like any politician ay ?? Is it a requirement of the job description do you think?

[oldrider]

Just like Fox News is ... and the BBC and PBS are not ???

And it is clearly demonstrable that our news media supports socialist agendas anyway ... how neutral is that ??

Fixed that for you! It's not like you to get things so completely wrong! :oi-grr: What were you thinking? :rolleyes:

[mashman]

Fixed that for you! It's not like you to get things so completely wrong! :oi-grr: What were you thinking? :rolleyes:

What was the difference?

[carbonhed]

Just like any politician ay ?? Is it a requirement of the job description do you think?

I'm more than happy you keep telling yourself that as long as Key stands with 59.3 per cent of people liking him, and 58.7 per cent also trusting him.

Cuntlippes can't muster a fraction of that in his own caucus.

[Banditbandit]

I'm more than happy you keep telling yourself that as long as Key stands with 59.3 per cent of people liking him, and 58.7 per cent also trusting him.

Cuntlippes can't muster a fraction of that in his own caucus.

What ?? A 4million blowflies can't be wrong argument? Are you suggesting that public confidence is a measure of a politician's truth-telling ???

You can't possibly be serious ..

(And who said I was leaving Silent T out of the statement?)

[Swoop]

Considering your complaint is that they are backing the opposition, it's clearly not the fact that they're government owned that's causing the supposed bias.
The problem is that TVNZ is the default mouthpiece of government. ANY government - red or blue.
Secondly is the blatant waste of taxpayers money on this entity. Have anyone searched the salary range their management and presenters are on? I had a look recently, perhaps others should see what our tax dollars are getting.

And get rid of fucking coronation st asap!

[carbonhed]

What ?? A 4million blowflies can't be wrong argument? Are you suggesting that public confidence is a measure of a politician's truth-telling ???

You can't possibly be serious ..

(And who said I was leaving Silent T out of the statement?)

Public confidence translates into electability. And I'm ecstatic that you and your enormous brain haven't picked up on that. Instead you keep desperately flogging the dead horse of ShonKey hoping that after nearly a decade of trying the same old shit, somehow, miaraculously, it will work. :rofl:

Keep it up. Keep underestimating John Key. Helen Clark did, Phil Goff did, mumblefuck did and soon "silent T" will get his too.

[Banditbandit]

Public confidence translates into electability. And I'm ecstatic that you and your enormous brain haven't picked up on that.

Oh .. I get that all right .. no worries there .. but we were talking about honesty - as per this post here ...



Absolutely but I'm not criticising him for being filthy rich now am I? I'm criticising him for being a dishonest little shitbag... over and over and over again... and being stupid enough to get caught over and over and over again.

You seem to be the one who can't keep the threads of the topic in your head - even tho' they are written down - and you did the writing .. NOthing wrong with my brain ... the issue seems to be with you and yours ...

Now I'm wondering whether it is worth discussing topics with someone who's mind wanders aimlessly in such a random fashion ..


Instead you keep desperately flogging the dead horse of ShonKey hoping that after nearly a decade of trying the same old shit, somehow, miaraculously, it will work. :rofl:

I'm not trying to make anything work - what do you think I am trying to achieve ??? I regard all politicians as inherently dishonest and untrustworthy ..


Keep it up. Keep underestimating John Key. Helen Clark did, Phil Goff did, mumblefuck did and soon "silent T" will get his too.

Yes .. and ??

You seem to think I support Clark, Goff and Silent T ... you could not be more wrong ... I do not underestimate John Key - nor do I over estimate the intelligence of yer average voter ..

[MisterD]

Just like Fox News is ... and the BBC and PBS are not ???

The BBC is so inately biased that they can't even see it themselves.

Fox is a privately-owned company that has decided that taking an opposing editorial stance to the left-leaners like NBC is a commercially smart move - they've been proved right, haven't they.

Anyway the point I want to make is that it's only state-owned broadcasters that have a need to be unbiased. Any other media can be as biased as they like, as long they're upfront about it. IMO the success of blogs is that you the bias of the blogger and can read their opinions through that lens.

[HenryDorsetCase]

The problem is that TVNZ is the default mouthpiece of government. ANY government - red or blue.
Secondly is the blatant waste of taxpayers money on this entity. Have anyone searched the salary range their management and presenters are on? I had a look recently, perhaps others should see what our tax dollars are getting.

And get rid of fucking coronation st asap!

broadcast TV is for people who can't understand torrents. apparently. I am more than happy to sit around waiting for someone to show me a show at the time they think I should watch it. Then rip it to pieces by having ever longer and more intrusive commercial breaks. And because we have more ads than anyone even Mrky, cutting crucial scenes so that the commercials will fit in. And not adhering to the scene breaks built into the shows so they just cut the motherfuckers randomly. I love hearing from my friend the Briscoes lady (MIIIILLLLF) and my other friends Harvey Norman and Noel Leeming about their wonderful products and such. Yes indeedy.

[Mike.Gayner]

Secondly is the blatant waste of taxpayers money on this entity. Have anyone searched the salary range their management and presenters are on? I had a look recently, perhaps others should see what our tax dollars are getting.

And get rid of fucking coronation st asap!

It's not a waste of taxpayer money, it's a profit-maker.

[Banditbandit]

The BBC is so inately (serious cut) through that lens.

You missed my point - ALL news medias is biased ... free market AND State-run ..

[The Reibz]

Fuck if I had 700,000 coming into this house I would be driving a one off built custom maserati every day to my private plane. Still wouldn't donate cash to worthy causes either
Middle class hard bro

[oldrider]

You missed my point - ALL news medias is biased ... free market AND State-run ..

Yep .. TV3 and radio live Green as the grass on the New Zealand hills .. Homo TV1 and anything on the left side of centre! :thud:

Meh .. I'm biased against fuckwits! :D It gets very lonely being perfect y'know! :bye:

[MisterD]

You missed my point - ALL news medias is biased ... free market AND State-run ..

My point, that it doesn't matter unless they're operating on taxpayer cash, still stands though.

We know that the Telegraph leans right and the Guardian and Indy lean left and they stand or fall if people buy them or not.

The BBC pushes left wing propaganda on the licence fee

[Swoop]

You missed my point - ALL news medias is biased ... free market AND State-run ..
So why should the taxpayer (who can't comprehend torrents, apparently) fund a propaganda network?

It's not a waste of taxpayer money, it's a profit-maker.
Profit maker? How does tvnz cope without the taxpayer propping it up? It's not like their executives are on minimum wage or the "living wage"... (more like "living in a mansion while driving the Maserati to the local restaurant for a snack" wage).

[carbonhed]

I'm not trying to make anything work - what do you think I am trying to achieve ???

I thought you were a hard left academic drone pretending to be a neutral observer. KB's first astroturfer. My bad.

But while we're ridiculing "silent T' here's my favourite clip of him practicing getting down with the people... really down with the people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvenqcfX1j8

[Mike.Gayner]

Profit maker? How does tvnz cope without the taxpayer propping it up? It's not like their executives are on minimum wage or the "living wage"... (more like "living in a mansion while driving the Maserati to the local restaurant for a snack" wage).

Same way all broadcasters do - selling ad space. I know you don't want to believe it, but TVNZ indeed makes a profit. It's a net winner for the tax payer.

[oldrider]

Same way all broadcasters do - selling ad space. I know you don't want to believe it, but TVNZ indeed makes a profit. It's a net winner for the tax payer.

Well they sure do bash the hell out of advertising space (at the expense of the programs) but a winner for taxpayers? :oi-grr:

Just like ACC TV1 is nothing but a constant political football and a breeding ground for political discontents! :shifty:

Government should stick to it's knitting and concentrate on core activities, business was never intended to be part of that! :no:

[carbonhed]

Here's a post from the left leaning blog the Dim-Post on "silent t's" penchant for fuckups :-

http://dimpost.wordpress.com/2014/02/19/gut-feeling-update/

[Voltaire]

Anyone what the doco on TV 3 " Mind the Gap"?
http://www.tv3.co.nz/INSIDE-NEW-ZEALAND-Mind-The-Gap/tabid/3692/articleID/94816/Default.aspx

It explained the 'trickle down' effect as " trickle up" and how business's pay minimum wages suck out the profits and the middle class prop up the poor.
Muldoon came out looking better than Roger Douglas.

[MisterD]

It explained the 'trickle down' effect as " trickle up"

"Trickle-down" is a strawman argument: www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jan/6/sowell-the-trickle-down-lie

[Swoop]

I know you don't want to believe it, but TVNZ indeed makes a profit. It's a net winner for the tax payer.
A profit, as well as paying money back into the public purse (over and above what the taxpayer pours into it) would be lovely.
But still being the mouthpiece of government is not required.

[oldrider]

Anyone what the doco on TV 3 " Mind the Gap"?
http://www.tv3.co.nz/INSIDE-NEW-ZEALAND-Mind-The-Gap/tabid/3692/articleID/94816/Default.aspx

It explained the 'trickle down' effect as " trickle up" and how business's pay minimum wages suck out the profits and the middle class prop up the poor.
Muldoon came out looking better than Roger Douglas.

Muldoon was the most socialist prime minister in NZ history .. he controlled everything and would have taken more control if he could have! :sick:

Rodger Douglas on the other hand? ... twas the time when National and Labour swopped positions and their respective voters never even noticed! :killingme

[Banditbandit]

Yep .. TV3 and radio live Green as the grass on the New Zealand hills .. Homo TV1 and anything on the left side of centre! :thud:

Meh .. I'm biased against fuckwits! :D It gets very lonely being perfect y'know! :bye:


:killingme Yeah .. but I am inclined to think that if the left say the news media is biased towards the right .. and the right say the newsd media is biased towards the left, then maybe, just maybe, the news media has got it fairly correct ...


So why should the taxpayer (who can't comprehend torrents, apparently) fund a propaganda network?


Propaganda network is a value judgement ... and if the state did not fund a network to get its message out, then how would the state get it's message out? Leave it to the biased news media ???


Here's a post from the left leaning blog the Dim-Post on "silent t's" penchant for fuckups :-

http://dimpost.wordpress.com/2014/02/19/gut-feeling-update/

Yeah ... the man is a fool ... and while fools may be electable at first - they never last long in politics ..



Muldoon came out looking better than Roger Douglas.

That's not surprising ... Muldoon was our last and strongest socialist PM ... while Douglas was a complete neo-Liberal ... if you were left wing who would you support???

[Banditbandit]

I thought you were a hard left

I will own up to that - I do regard myself as "hard left" - and I regard our current misnamed Labour Party as further right than the original Liberals ...



academic drone

I can understand how you might think that - I try not to be. I do try to have an impact on the lives of the people who walk into my classroom, by preparing them to get a job as best I can ... I try to teach them how to think - and I avoid teaching them what to think .. I give top marks to the students who disagree with me .. to do that well, they have to understand what I am saying, analysis and think about what I am saying - if they can disagree with me then they have learnt what I want them to. So I'm not a left-wing propagandist in the classroom ... ( well, maybe just a little - the students always know where I stand on any issue - but they don't have to agree with me - we are talking adults here, not sensitive young and growing minds)

I do try to have an impact on Academia by trying to force them to have the same impact on the lives of their students - bastards are usually happy to be drones and don't care about their students ...

I probably share your assessment of academia in general ..



pretending to be a neutral observer.

The ONLY way to get students to think and to argue is to declare my bias. And if you've ever been in my classroom, that's the first thing I tell students - here's my bias .. I don't expect you to agree with me, and I am not a neutral person - I am open about my bias .. it's up to you to take that into account ..,. I don't believe in this bullshit about objectivity - there is no such thing ... So I declare my bias ..


KB's first astroturfer. My bad.

Sorry I don't get the "astroturfer" reference .. (Oh .. ok .. I googled it .. there are several possibilities .. interesting uses of the word ... do you mean fake identity claims ? If yes, then No .. but I like my privacy ... so I am reluctant to put stuff here (or anywhere) that can identify the actual person ... I'm pretty protective of my privacy at all times)


But while we're ridiculing "silent T' here's my favourite clip of him practicing getting down with the people... really down with the people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvenqcfX1j8

I fail to see how such a middle class arsehole can claim to represent working people .. and I fail to see how the dumb fucking party thought that working people would put up with a fool ... are they so condescending that they thinking working people would not see he's a fool !!!

And just so we are really clear .. I think to lose this year's election John Key would have to be caught having sex with Len Browne on the Speaker's Chair in Parliament's debating chamber .. and, like, that's ever going to happen ! (Doesn't mean I have to like it ..)

[Swoop]

and if the state did not fund a network to get its message out, then how would the state get it's message out? Leave it to the biased news media ???
Surely that is called Parliament TV. Tune it in for some of the finest comedy in NZ.:thud:



... John Key would have to be caught having sex with Len Browne on the Speaker's Chair in Parliament's debating chamber ..
I wonder if Parliament TV will broadcast that? :killingme

[oldrider]

And just so we are really clear .. I think to lose this year's election John Key would have to be caught having sex with Len Browne on the Speaker's Chair in Parliament's debating chamber .. and, like, that's ever going to happen !

True! That's my current take on it too but the media have yet to go full out with their directional propaganda!

Maybe they (the media) are confused by the interchangeability of the current political mix and can't decide which way to run! :confused:

As for your Key/Brown suggestion ... nothing but nothing, will ever surprise me in this country ever again! :whistle:

[oldrider]

Just listen to that Cunliff speech clip again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvenqcfX1j8

Ask yourself if that is the sort of man that you really want to lead our country? Was he simply a rabid raving scaremonger? :scratch:

Nearly all of what he was raving about is in past tense ... has it really been so bad, so harmfull and was he actually right? ... You be the judge! :wait:

[carbonhed]

I will own up to that - I do regard myself as "hard left" - and I regard our current misnamed Labour Party as further right than the original Liberals ...




I can understand how you might think that - I try not to be. I do try to have an impact on the lives of the people who walk into my classroom, by preparing them to get a job as best I can ... I try to teach them how to think - and I avoid teaching them what to think .. I give top marks to the students who disagree with me .. to do that well, they have to understand what I am saying, analysis and think about what I am saying - if they can disagree with me then they have learnt what I want them to. So I'm not a left-wing propagandist in the classroom ... ( well, maybe just a little - the students always know where I stand on any issue - but they don't have to agree with me - we are talking adults here, not sensitive young and growing minds)

I do try to have an impact on Academia by trying to force them to have the same impact on the lives of their students - bastards are usually happy to be drones and don't care about their students ...

I probably share your assessment of academia in general ..




The ONLY way to get students to think and to argue is to declare my bias. And if you've ever been in my classroom, that's the first thing I tell students - here's my bias .. I don't expect you to agree with me, and I am not a neutral person - I am open about my bias .. it's up to you to take that into account ..,. I don't believe in this bullshit about objectivity - there is no such thing ... So I declare my bias ..



Sorry I don't get the "astroturfer" reference .. (Oh .. ok .. I googled it .. there are several possibilities .. interesting uses of the word ... do you mean fake identity claims ? If yes, then No .. but I like my privacy ... so I am reluctant to put stuff here (or anywhere) that can identify the actual person ... I'm pretty protective of my privacy at all times)



I fail to see how such a middle class arsehole can claim to represent working people .. and I fail to see how the dumb fucking party thought that working people would put up with a fool ... are they so condescending that they thinking working people would not see he's a fool !!!

And just so we are really clear .. I think to lose this year's election John Key would have to be caught having sex with Len Browne on the Speaker's Chair in Parliament's debating chamber .. and, like, that's ever going to happen ! (Doesn't mean I have to like it ..)

Ah ok. I've judged you too harshly. Sorry about that. When you were defending Len Brown's conduct as being a personal matter between consenting adults, which in minor part it was, I was half convinced you must be a Labour Party activist masquerading as the voice of reason.

I think the election will be horrendously tight and the prospect of the Greens being anywhere near the levers of power fills me with dread. Never mind Winston fucking Peters. If ever there was somebody more deserving of the most extreme form of censorship... I hope they got it.

[Ocean1]

middle class arsehole

You must be a deeply unhappy fella. What, with all the rich pricks still littering the landscape too.

[carbonhed]

You must be a deeply unhappy fella. What, with all the rich pricks still littering the landscape too.

Left wing academics eh. They hate everybody but need the proletariat to feed and clothe them.

[puddytat]

You're going to love this......
http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/02/19/canaries-in-a-coal-mine-has-the-daily-blog-poll-anticipated-labours-collapse/

[Ocean1]

You're going to love this......
http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/02/19/canaries-in-a-coal-mine-has-the-daily-blog-poll-anticipated-labours-collapse/

The left migrating to the greens? Pretty much how it's been happening off shore I hear.

In the US, in particular the extreme left has long since jumped to the global warming ship.

A natural shift I guess, one dysfunctional ideology for another...

[puddytat]

I agree....but its happening on the left & the right....& is it because of politics or a growing sense of doom & frustration at a system that's crumbling & an ecosystem that's collapsing ?
And is it because we all have this predisposition to blame others before we look at ourselves?
I don't have the fucking answers. I don't think anyone has. Its all selfish bias.

[Ocean1]

I agree....but its happening on the left & the right

Don't see anywhere near the same drift from the right. Don't think the two are as compatible.


....& is it because of politics or a growing sense of doom & frustration at a system that's crumbling & an ecosystem that's collapsing ?

That's the result any time reality doesn't match expectation.

So which is at fault?


And is it because we all have this predisposition to blame others before we look at ourselves?

Possibly. Some of us know that, though, accept it and correct the windage to suit.

[carbonhed]

You're going to love this......
http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/02/19/canaries-in-a-coal-mine-has-the-daily-blog-poll-anticipated-labours-collapse/

Chris Trotter? Two of his more staggering insights this year are that Krim.Con's new party would steal votes from National and that Winston Peters was actually a pretty cool guy... shortly before Winston was seen stealing away from Krim.Con's palatial mansion clutching a sign that said... "NO".

If ever there was a boomer that desperately needed the arse card the human host of Josef Stalin's mustache is it.

[puddytat]

Chris Trotter? Two of his more staggering insights this year are that Krim.Con's new party would steal votes from National and that Winston Peters was actually a pretty cool guy... shortly before Winston was seen stealing away from Krim.Con's palatial mansion clutching a sign that said... "NO".

If ever there was a boomer that desperately needed the arse card the human host of Josef Stalin's mustache is it.

:lol::clap:

[puddytat]

Don't see anywhere near the same drift from the right. Don't think the two are as compatible.



That's the result any time reality doesn't match expectation.

So which is at fault?



Possibly. Some of us know that, though, accept it and correct the windage to suit.

Maybe not in NZ yet, but its happening in other lands.. Colin Craig is not whom Im alluding to as you probably know.

As to which is at fault, I'd say its both.

Some of us see it alright but instead try to to see what its like in anothers shoes & understand why...purely to avoid coming into contact with them & making the same mistakes or learn to not become so one eyed.
There but for the Grace of God, go I...

[MisterD]

It looks like it's time for anyone vaguely right-of-centre to get the popcorn in: www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/02/the_abcs_are_back.html

I have no time at all for Thumbhead Cunliffe, but FFS if the Labour party don't dispose of the dead wood like Mallard and King, they're doomed. It's a superficially attractive situation, but if it means that the Ginga Aussie tw@ gets more power then...

[Banditbandit]

You must be a deeply unhappy fella. What, with all the rich pricks still littering the landscape too.


:killingme ... no ... the two ideas are not related in my mind as you think .. yes, he's middle class .. and yes he is an arsehole ... but middle class does not automatically mean arsehole - just as rich does not necessarily mean arsehole ... Silent T is both middle class AND an arsehole ... He's one of the middle class who see that his future really lies with the ruling class (where he wants to belong) rather than with the workers - the workers that he claims to represent ... which is what makes him an arsehole in my book ...


Left wing academics eh. They hate everybody

Yeah - that's pretty true - but not the case here any longer - I gave up that idea many decades ago ... life is just too much fun to waste my energy hasting everyone ... I don't even hate arseholes ... it's not really their fault ...



but need the proletariat to feed and clothe them.

Not true for this old hunter gatherer either ... I can eat well off the land ... Clothes? Yeah - I can do that too .. it's just easier to go to the red shed ...

[Ocean1]

As to which is at fault, I'd say its both.

And both are pretty difficult to change eh?

Yet, often all that's required to feel OK about reality is a change in perspective. http://psychcentral.com/lib/in-depth-cognitive-behavioral-therapy/000907

But you already know that....


Some of us see it alright but instead try to to see what its like in anothers shoes & understand why...purely to avoid coming into contact with them & making the same mistakes or learn to not become so one eyed.
There but for the Grace of God, go I...

Doncha?

[Ocean1]

:killingme ... no ... the two ideas are not related in my mind as you think .. yes, he's middle class .. and yes he is an arsehole ... but middle class does not automatically mean arsehole - just as rich does not necessarily mean arsehole ... Silent T is both middle class AND an arsehole ... He's one of the middle class who see that his future really lies with the ruling class (where he wants to belong) rather than with the workers - the workers that he claims to represent ... which is what makes him an arsehole in my book ...

OK.

Now take out "middle class", "workers", "ruling class" and you're left with "arsehole" or "not arsehole".

Which is where I live.

There is no such thing as "class", simply behavior I like, and behaviour I don't like.

[Banditbandit]

I'm sorry - I disagree.

There is clearly a ruling class in Godzone - the ones with the economic and therefore the political power

There are the middle classes - those employed by the ruling class to keep the workers under control ...

And there are the working class ...

One illusion which keeps Godzone ticking over the way it is and for the benefit of the ruling class is the illusion that there is no class in Godzone ... this illusion is perpetraed by the middle class at the behest of the ruling class - because it is a great way to keep the workers under control ... i.e. "There is no class - hard work will get you to the top and make you rich - so work harder ..."

The harder the workers work, the happier the ruling class is because they make more money - and the happier the middle class is because they are getting a few crumbs dropped from the top table, a nice pat on the back, and the illusion that soon they too will be ruling class (but NEVER HAPPEN)

Roger Douglas an the Labour Government of the 1980s smashed the workers then turned their attention on the middle class - it was a ruling class push - and guess who won? Now the ruling class are vacumming up al the money and the gap between top and bottom in our society is growing at one of the fastest rates in the world ... it's a Capitalist economy all right - with the class structure alive and well ... and becoming more obvious ..

[MisterD]

I'm sorry, but that's clearly bollocks. Ok, there might be a Maori aristocracy getting fat on Treaty gravy, if it's possible to go from being a state-house kid or single mum on the DPB and end up a Minister of state...

[Banditbandit]

I'm sorry, but that's clearly bollocks. Ok, there might be a Maori aristocracy getting fat on Treaty gravy

Yeah .. there might be, but I could not possibly comment :shutup:



if it's possible to go from being a state-house kid or single mum on the DPB and end up a Minister of state...

Yeah - the "ladder to success" is one of the illusions that keep the system in place ...

Ministers of State are not the people with the real power .. only the illusion of power through Parliamentary power ... but economic power is stronger ... and creates hegemonic power, which Ministers of State are subject to ...

[carbonhed]

I just installed "hegemonic power" on the Blade. One tooth down on the front and a Translogic quickshifter and "Viola!"... hegemony out the wazoo.

[Banditbandit]

:killingme stunning mate - it's Friday and who can be serious when there are bikes to ride !!!

[Ocean1]

One illusion which keeps Godzone ticking over the way it is and for the benefit of the ruling class is the illusion that there is no class in Godzone ... this illusion is perpetraed by the middle class at the behest of the ruling class - because it is a great way to keep the workers under control ... i.e. "There is no class - hard work will get you to the top and make you rich - so work harder ..."


Well, y'know mate, it's an illusion that's fed and housed and trained and employed rather a lot of Kiwis over the years.

So, given the choice between an illusion that demonstrably works, (see that bit there?) and one that smells rather a lot like an excuse for slacking off, blaming someone else for the inevitable resulting failure (and is seen to be quite successful in that regard amongst it's adherents) and produces nothing but envy I'll take my illusion any day.

[Banditbandit]

Well, y'know mate, it's an illusion that's fed and housed and trained and employed rather a lot of Kiwis over the years.

So, given the choice between an illusion that demonstrably works, (see that bit there?) and one that smells rather a lot like an excuse for slacking off, blaming someone else for the inevitable resulting failure (and is seen to be quite successful in that regard amongst it's adherents) and produces nothing but envy I'll take my illusion any day.

Whoa .. hang about there ... there is a huge leap into paragraph two - I would not follow that leap at all ... are you saying that a class analysis is an excuse for slacking off ??? I've never seen it used as such ...

[Ocean1]

Whoa .. hang about there ... there is a huge leap into paragraph two - I would not follow that leap at all ... are you saying that a class analysis is an excuse for slacking off ??? I've never seen it used as such ...

It's not even a very small shuffle.

That hard work directly and positively influences income is observable fact.

Blaming some system of class oppression for a lifestyle that doesn’t match your expectations isn’t.

But carry on as you were, I’ll continue to be simply very very lucky.

[saxet]

Well, y'know mate, it's an illusion that's fed and housed and trained and employed rather a lot of Kiwis over the years.

So, given the choice between an illusion that demonstrably works, (see that bit there?) and one that smells rather a lot like an excuse for slacking off, blaming someone else for the inevitable resulting failure (and is seen to be quite successful in that regard amongst it's adherents) and produces nothing but envy I'll take my illusion any day.

Red pill blue pill?

[Ocean1]

Red pill blue pill?

No pill required for access to the real world dude.

You can react to observable real-world events in ways that produce outcomes you want.

Or you can pretend your performance is defined by others, and it's not your fault that you don't have what you want.

The first is simply successful behaviour. The second is a fantasy driven by the need to shed blame for the lack of personal success.

Choose one.

[Pussy]

No pill required for access to the real world dude.

You can react to observable real-world events in ways that produce outcomes you want.

Or you can pretend your performance is defined by others, and it's not your fault that you don't have what you want.

The first is simply successful behaviour. The second is a fantasy driven by the need to shed blame for the lack of personal success.

Choose one.

SPOT ON! If you want to pull a rabbit out of a hat, you must first put one in....

[puddytat]

And both are pretty difficult to change eh?

Yet, often all that's required to feel OK about reality is a change in perspective. http://psychcentral.com/lib/in-depth-cognitive-behavioral-therapy/000907

But you already know that....





Yeah I did know that, it was the Ram Dass book that started it then my guru filled in the rest.
And the link is a good read too I still have some work to do, seemingly.

[Banditbandit]

No pill required for access to the real world dude.

You can react to observable real-world events in ways that produce outcomes you want.

Or you can pretend your performance is defined by others, and it's not your fault that you don't have what you want.

The first is simply successful behaviour. The second is a fantasy driven by the need to shed blame for the lack of personal success.

Choose one.

I do not see how that two ideas of yours mean there is no class in Godzone ...

Neither are the two ideas mutually exclusive ...

[Paul in NZ]

Terms like 'middle class' etc come from a bygone era and don't really apply any more. Or at least the supposed definitions don't.. Besides we don't really have enough 'Gentry' (people who don't need to work) to throw up a really good one...

Social classes are really groups of like minded people that seek each others company and a tendancy to marry only in the same group with very little movement between groups. He is definately NOT working class. His education and income have moved him into the ruling elite...

Frankly hes a bit of an arse. His worst feature is that he does not look honest or open and its all down hill from there..

[rustyrobot]

Terms like 'middle class' etc come from a bygone era and don't really apply any more. Or at least the supposed definitions don't.. Besides we don't really have enough 'Gentry' (people who don't need to work) to throw up a really good one...


Yes, I've often felt that this is the case in New Zealand. There are definitely different classes of people (with relatively little movement between them on the whole), but those class divisions defined in mid 19th century Europe are not applicable to contemporary life in New Zealand. For the most part I think that if you feel there are no class distinctions in this country, then you are in the 'middle-classes', however you like to term them.

[Paul in NZ]

Yes, I've often felt that this is the case in New Zealand. There are definitely different classes of people (with relatively little movement between them on the whole), but those class divisions defined in mid 19th century Europe are not applicable to contemporary life in New Zealand. For the most part I think that if you feel there are no class distinctions in this country, then you are in the 'middle-classes', however you like to term them.

One of the roots of the idea of egalitarian NZ was that a lot of the people who came here did so to escape the limitations of the english class system (thats the old system). You might think that it was mainly upwardly asperational working class but there were a lot of minor gentry and upper middle class people as well. They actually wanted to work as Victorian ideals equated respectability with work. In the old system that meant the clergy, military or public service. Indeed they had to expand the types of jobs suitable for the upper classes to accomodate the numbers that had to/wanted to work. Remember that surgeons were basically barbers that cut a tad closer to the bone at one point.

So basically there were the upper or genteel class, titled or non titled land owning classes that didnt 'work' as such... The middle classes who owned property and worked, decent people who were trades people etc who worked but didnt own property and disreputables who didnt or seldom worked (unless it was as public prostitutes and the like) and didnt own anything...

By the mid 1800's there was a lot of cross class movement. Britain had a lot more non titled aristocrats that owned land (in Europe nearly everyone that owned a lot of land had a title). Britain never had the equivalent of the french revolution so the grand estates broke up later or at least went into decline. The lower status gentility had to work as their capital was no longer enough to survive on alone and the upper middle classes accumulated enough capital to indulge in genteel pursuits...

Anyway - as late as the 1940's people immigrated here after seeing pictures of 'working mens clubs' with cars parked outside. ie the usual boundaries were never established here due as much as anything as the lack of numbers to become a self sustaining 'community'.

Since the 1940's however we have seen the rise of a politically aware and educated ruling class. They tend to intermarry and are close to forming a ruling elite that feels entitled to lead as its in their genes. I think this applies to the likes of Hone Hariwera... They are raised in a highly politicised environment and Mr Cunliffe shows all the traits of this.. I really do think he considers himself 'born to rule' and thats a dangerous thing

[carbonhed]

Latest poll results show the Greens and Winston First's secret talks with Krim.con have backfired horrendously. Everything that fat bastard touches just turns to shit.

One News Poll (http://curiablog.wordpress.com/2014/02/23/one-news-colmar-brunton-poll-february-2014/)




http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r319/carbonhed/dirty-deeds-630x504.gif

[Banditbandit]

Terms like 'middle class' etc come from a bygone era and don't really apply any more. Or at least the supposed definitions don't.. Besides we don't really have enough 'Gentry' (people who don't need to work) to throw up a really good one...

Social classes are really groups of like minded people that seek each others company and a tendancy to marry only in the same group with very little movement between groups. He is definately NOT working class. His education and income have moved him into the ruling elite...

Frankly hes a bit of an arse. His worst feature is that he does not look honest or open and its all down hill from there..

Hang on - can't you see the contradictions between what you say above and what you say below ???


One of the roots of the idea of egalitarian NZ was that a lot of the people who came here did so to escape the limitations of the english class system (thats the old system). You might think that it was mainly upwardly asperational working class but there were a lot of minor gentry and upper middle class people as well. They actually wanted to work as Victorian ideals equated respectability with work. In the old system that meant the clergy, military or public service. Indeed they had to expand the types of jobs suitable for the upper classes to accomodate the numbers that had to/wanted to work. Remember that surgeons were basically barbers that cut a tad closer to the bone at one point.

So basically there were the upper or genteel class, titled or non titled land owning classes that didnt 'work' as such... The middle classes who owned property and worked, decent people who were trades people etc who worked but didnt own property and disreputables who didnt or seldom worked (unless it was as public prostitutes and the like) and didnt own anything...

By the mid 1800's there was a lot of cross class movement. Britain had a lot more non titled aristocrats that owned land (in Europe nearly everyone that owned a lot of land had a title). Britain never had the equivalent of the french revolution so the grand estates broke up later or at least went into decline. The lower status gentility had to work as their capital was no longer enough to survive on alone and the upper middle classes accumulated enough capital to indulge in genteel pursuits...

Anyway - as late as the 1940's people immigrated here after seeing pictures of 'working mens clubs' with cars parked outside. ie the usual boundaries were never established here due as much as anything as the lack of numbers to become a self sustaining 'community'.

Since the 1940's however we have seen the rise of a politically aware and educated ruling class. They tend to intermarry and are close to forming a ruling elite that feels entitled to lead as its in their genes. I think this applies to the likes of Hone Hariwera... They are raised in a highly politicised environment and Mr Cunliffe shows all the traits of this.. I really do think he considers himself 'born to rule' and thats a dangerous thing

[Paul in NZ]

Hang on - can't you see the contradictions between what you say above and what you say below ???

No - 'below' I was refering to historical conditions and in the first post it was a current situation comment.

[Paul in NZ]

Hang on - can't you see the contradictions between what you say above and what you say below ???

Not really. Later post is historical context elaborating on the first. He is not really middle class but a different class altogether. Historically the royals were the ruling elite. Now a political class has evolved particularly in the labour camp

[Paul in NZ]

how did that happen? class warfare??

[Ocean1]

how did that happen? class warfare??

Talking to yourself?

Senility. :laugh:

[carbonhed]

Chris Trotter on the Left's implosion :-

Circling the drain. (http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/02/24/that-sinking-feeling-is-it-already-too-late-to-save-labour-and-the-greens-from-disaster/)

[Banditbandit]

Not really. Later post is historical context elaborating on the first. He is not really middle class but a different class altogether. Historically the royals were the ruling elite. Now a political class has evolved particularly in the labour camp

That shows a lack of understanding of the class system - yes, once upon a time (Bedtime story) the royals were the ruling elite - that is not true in a Capitalist system - the capitalists/bourgeoisie became the ruling elite - ruling not by force of arms but by economic and therefore hegemonic power ...

[Ocean1]

(Bedtime story) .......

And that's about all it is.

Not a particularly entertaining or original one at that.

[Paul in NZ]

That shows a lack of understanding of the class system - yes, once upon a time (Bedtime story) the royals were the ruling elite - that is not true in a Capitalist system - the capitalists/bourgeoisie became the ruling elite - ruling not by force of arms but by economic and therefore hegemonic power ...

Good try....

The class system morphs and changes quickly. Using terms like upper class and thinking 'downton abbey' does not really work other than using it as a stereotype that generally everyone understands.

I guess I'm not using the term royals accurately if you are thinking in todays money but rather refering to the titled land owning class that did run things (once a long time ago) but its a small point.

In my opinion Mr Cunliffe is Labour 'Royalty'... Or at least he has aquired most of the habits of the left wing ruling class.

God - what a silly subject for a motorcycle forum...

[oldrider]

It's not only a motorcycle forum when you are on "Rant and Rage" is it Paul? :confused:

[husaberg]

Labour must be desirable to get into, since the reporter chap wants to become a politician...

The TVNZ debacle over it being a political mouthpiece is out in the news.

As said many times before, TVNZ must be sold off and privatised to ensure a neutral position in the media spectrum, rather than being a political propaganda machine.

Yes you are correct, selling it to Rupert Murdoch will insure its neutrality:lol:


Latest poll results show the Greens and Winston First's secret talks with Krim.con have backfired horrendously. Everything that fat bastard touches just turns to shit.

One News Poll (http://curiablog.wordpress.com/2014/02/23/one-news-colmar-brunton-poll-february-2014/)



Maybe the Cunifffe needs to front up with a note from his doctor proving he's not as shape shifting Alien as well then.

[carbonhed]

Damn it's getting hard to keep up with this fuckwits brainfarts.

Actually first I have to acknowledge that the Labour caucus called this right. They didn't want a bar of this dingbat and they knew him better than most. I thought he'd be more of a challenge to the government... I was wrong.

Props to the activist base and the unions! Labours gone from a likeable but totally incompetent leader to an unlikeable, dishonest and totally incompetent leader. Way to go guys. Who's next?

What's with Matt McCarten as chief of staff. Trying to outflank the Greens on the far Left? What kind of sense does that make?

Secret trusts to hide the identity of donors!!!!

Krim.con writing your IT policy?

Your own staffers leaking your policy?

:lol:

[Robbo]

Ah yes, dear old David Cuntlips seems to have lost the plot. Just like Len Brown he can't see where he is going wrong.

[Banditbandit]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1/p320x320/1743506_536972923084259_858791991_n.jpg

[oldrider]

The silly season is the time that brings silly people out, nature abounds in silly people :yes: ... watch this space! :corn:

[carbonhed]

Chris Trotter whining on endlessly that it's all incredibly unfair that Cuntlippes cockups are pointed out by a Vast Right Wing Conspiracy in the media and that he's been stabbed in the back by a Vast Left Wing Conspiracy in his own Labour Party.

Wah Wah Wah (http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/03/05/human-error-is-david-cunliffe-more-sinned-against-than-sinning/)

:laugh:

[carbonhed]

Claire Trevett in The Herald wonders how "Silent T" could hound John Banks about secret donations... and then do precisely the same.

It's because he's a lawyer Claire. (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/claire-trevett/news/article.cfm?a_id=74&objectid=11214582)

[Banditbandit]

http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/hsc/lowres/elections-usa-all_s_fair_in_love_and_war-politicians-campaigns-voters-vote-hscn473l.jpg

[oldrider]

True! Until you get caught out BB! :laugh:

[mashman]

True! Until you get caught out BB! :laugh:

Then it's just a case of changing the law and all's good :shit:

[carbonhed]

Now he's being tricksy about helping one of his secret donors buy a slice of paradise.

Friend of the working class... ahahahahah (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11216495)

[puddytat]

At least he said who they were, compaired to this upstanding figure of a leader.
http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/03/08/guess-whos-coming-to-dinner-questions-about-keys-185-000-fund-raisers/

[Banditbandit]

:killingme :laugh: :clap: :killingme

Hypocrisy anyone ???

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/key-under-fire-antoines-donations-ck-152983

[carbonhed]

At least he said who they were, compaired to this upstanding figure of a leader.
http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/03/08/guess-whos-coming-to-dinner-questions-about-keys-185-000-fund-raisers/

Thanks for that. Makes Trotters wah wah wah wah seem almost human. Bradbury's screams of "injustice!" sound like the howls of a wounded animal in the night.... but of course it's just a lefty scumbag whining about getting his arse kicked.

This is of course the same "suicide bomber Bradbury" who blogged favourably about Krim.con's new party without disclosing that he was being paid by the fat German bastard. A man of total integrity then?

But of course a hankering for the Kraut's mighty sausage is nothing new for the left. Russell Norman's been back to the uber villains lair for three servings.... an then AMAAAAAZINGLY offered to interfere in NZ's judicial process so that the fat prick wouldn't be extradited to face justice. Classy!

Winston first has also been slobbering over the mighty bratwurst.

Why wouldn't Silent T be in there with a grin too? Who are those two secret donors? Krim.con and Matt McCarten's Unite tax cheats are surely the leading suspects?

[Banditbandit]

Thanks for that. Makes Trotters wah wah wah wah seem almost human. Bradbury's screams of "injustice!" sound like the howls of a wounded animal in the night.... but of course it's just a lefty scumbag whining about getting his arse kicked.

This is of course the same "suicide bomber Bradbury" who blogged favourably about Krim.con's new party without disclosing that he was being paid by the fat German bastard. A man of total integrity then?

But of course a hankering for the Kraut's mighty sausage is nothing new for the left. Russell Norman's been back to the uber villains lair for three servings.... an then AMAAAAAZINGLY offered to interfere in NZ's judicial process so that the fat prick wouldn't be extradited to face justice. Classy!

Winston first has also been slobbering over the mighty bratwurst.

Why wouldn't Silent T be in there with a grin too? Who are those two secret donors? Krim.con and Matt McCarten's Unite tax cheats are surely the leading suspects?

Hang about - are you saying it is OK for Key to funnel donations in such a way as to not have to state who made them but it is wrong for Silent T to dop the same thing?

(And McCarten denies any donations were made by Unite) ..

[Oscar]

:killingme :laugh: :clap: :killingme

Hypocrisy anyone ???

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/key-under-fire-antoines-donations-ck-152983

So Labour are going to supply the names of the people who buy sausages at their fund raising functions...?

[Oscar]

Hang about - are you saying it is OK for Key to funnel donations in such a way as to not have to state who made them but it is wrong for Silent T to dop the same thing?

(And McCarten denies any donations were made by Unite) ..

Accepting the donation from the restaurant owner is quite legal.
Political dinners are a long standing source of money for many parties.

What Cunnliffe did was not.

Notwithstanding that, Labour did much the same thing...

Labour's undisclosed event
It has also emerged today that Labour charged individuals $1000 a head to dine with an arch-critic of Mr Key, actor Sir Ian McKellen.

Neither the donations nor the dinner were disclosed to the Electoral Commission because the rules do not require it.


So how is this hypocrisy thing work again?

[Banditbandit]

So how is this hypocrisy thing work again?


The same for all sides .. politicians are politicians after all ... (Don't make the mistake of thinking I support Silent T - I support him no more than I support DonKey)

[Oscar]

The same for all sides .. politicians are politicians after all ... (Don't make the mistake of thinking I support Silent T - I support him no more than I support DonKey)

So the Labour Party are saying that Key is doing something that they do all the time, but when they do it - it's OK?
You're the one that made the comment:


Hypocrisy anyone ???


Care to explain why you think it's hypocritical?

[mashman]

The same for all sides .. politicians are politicians after all ... (Don't make the mistake of thinking I support Silent T - I support him no more than I support DonKey)

http://girlwithasportsproblem.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/23516335.jpg

[Banditbandit]

So the Labour Party are saying that Key is doing something that they do all the time, but when they do it - it's OK?
You're the one that made the comment:



Care to explain why you think it's hypocritical?



I think you will find that DonKey accussed Silent T of being "tricky" by hiding donors behind a trust - so they could not be identified - Slient T has now named three of the donors - and repaid money to two who did not want to be named (notice it was the donors who did not want to be named here)

The DonKey has been seen to be funnelling donations through a restaurant account - and then refusing to name the donors ...

They are a right pair - as bad as each other ...

The hypocrisy is Key doing exactly what he has accussed Silent T of - being tricky and hiding donors ...

[Oscar]

I think you will find that DonKey accussed Silent T of being "tricky" by hiding donors behind a trust - so they could not be identified - Slient T has now named three of the donors - and repaid money to two who did not want to be named (notice it was the donors who did not want to be named here)

The DonKey has been seen to be funnelling donations through a restaurant account - and then refusing to name the donors ...

They are a right pair - as bad as each other ...

The hypocrisy is Key doing exactly what he has accussed Silent T of - being tricky and hiding donors ...

You missed the point.
The two things are not the same.
One is legal, the other not.

Plus the fund raising method that Key is accused of is also widley practised by other parties, including Labour. So that would make them hypocrites, no?

[carbonhed]

I think you will find that DonKey accussed Silent T of being "tricky" by hiding donors behind a trust - so they could not be identified - Slient T has now named three of the donors - and repaid money to two who did not want to be named (notice it was the donors who did not want to be named here)

The DonKey has been seen to be funnelling donations through a restaurant account - and then refusing to name the donors ...

They are a right pair - as bad as each other ...

The hypocrisy is Key doing exactly what he has accussed Silent T of - being tricky and hiding donors ...

Nah sorry. Abject fail.

Fellow leftard explaining slowly why yer full of it (http://www.pundit.co.nz/content/one-of-these-things-actually-isnt-quite-like-the-other)

[Banditbandit]

You missed the point.
The two things are not the same.
One is legal, the other not.

Plus the fund raising method that Key is accused of is also widley practised by other parties, including Labour. So that would make them hypocrites, no?

You are hair splitting ... (a typical action of people trying to justify something in the face of opposition ...)

They are ALL hypocrites !!!

[oldrider]

Wouldn't it be interesting if the party system was abolished and we all just voted for the "best" candidate by our own choice.

This current MMP party system is a total fail ... FPP was really bad but this MMP is inconclusive and no body ever seems to be happy with "any" outcome.

Surely we can do better than this! FFS! :facepalm:

[SPman]

Plus the fund raising method that Key is accused of is also widley practised by other parties, including Labour. So that would make them hypocrites, no? As usual - if Labour do it, they're the spawn of the devil and are lambasted through the press - if Key does it - it must be perfectly legal and OK because he is the messiah and the nats can do no wrong!

Fucking hypocrites the lot of you!

[Oscar]

As usual - if Labour do it, they're the spawn of the devil and are lambasted through the press - if Key does it - it must be perfectly legal and OK because he is the messiah and the nats can do no wrong!

Fucking hypocrites the lot of you!

Wow, you should take a breath.
The article in question accused National of being hypocritical, when Labour were doing exactly the same.
In actual fact, most political parties use this fund raising method and it ain't illegal.

[oldrider]

You are hair splitting ... (a typical action of people trying to justify something in the face of opposition ...)

They are ALL hypocrites !!!

In fairness to our politicians their behaviour is what they believe we (the collective voters) require of them so that they can do their thing!

Sort of like performers and commedians they only take the material to where they think the laughs are otherwise they are dead in the water!

So I guess we (the voters) are the biggest hypocrites of all ..... "Physician, heal thyself"! :rolleyes:

[SPman]

...................

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa36/JonL_photo/1891230_10153891653430576_734316439_n-600x530r_zps306f462a.jpg

:laugh::laugh::laugh::facepalm:
(http://s198.photobucket.com/user/JonL_photo/media/1891230_10153891653430576_734316439_n-600x530r_zps306f462a.jpg.html)

[pete376403]

Wouldn't it be interesting if the party system was abolished and we all just voted for the "best" candidate by our own choice.

This current MMP party system is a total fail ... FPP was really bad but this MMP is inconclusive and no body ever seems to be happy with "any" outcome.

Surely we can do better than this! FFS! :facepalm:

Are you saying the FFS system is better than the FPP or MMP? :rolleyes:

[puddytat]

Some of yous fellas just don't get "it" do ya ? :facepalm:

[mashman]

Some of yous fellas just don't get "it" do ya ? :facepalm:

Whatever do you mean?

[oldrider]

Are you saying the FFS system is better than the FPP or MMP? :rolleyes:

It might need some work! :lol:

[Banditbandit]

You missed the point.
The two things are not the same.
One is legal, the other not.

I'm sorry - but I spent the night look at this and thinking about it and I can't see how it is illegal ...

Please remember that the donations were to Silent T and not to the Labour Party ..

Can you please let my mind rest and tell me how it was illegal? Citing a piece of legislation would be great ..


Plus the fund raising method that Key is accused of is also widley practised by other parties, including Labour. So that would make them hypocrites, no?

No, I'm sorry the hypocrisy here is DonKey saying Silent T was doing something wrong - when he was doing the same thing - hiding donors behind anonymous payments ... Key attacked Cunnliffe for something he was doing himself ..


Wow, you should take a breath.
The article in question accused National of being hypocritical, when Labour were doing exactly the same.
In actual fact, most political parties use this fund raising method and it ain't illegal.

As above - the hypocrisy was in accusing Labour of doing wrong - when Key was doing it himself ..

[Oscar]

I'm sorry - but I spent the night look at this and thinking about it and I can't see how it is illegal ...

Please remember that the donations were to Silent T and not to the Labour Party ..

Can you please let my mind rest and tell me how it was illegal? Citing a piece of legislation would be great ..



No, I'm sorry the hypocrisy here is DonKey saying Silent T was doing something wrong - when he was doing the same thing - hiding donors behind anonymous payments ... Key attacked Cunnliffe for something he was doing himself ..



As above - the hypocrisy was in accusing Labour of doing wrong - when Key was doing it himself ..

Silent T hid donations, and only refunded them after he was caught.
Key did something that is very common in politics on both sides - the source of the money was a public fund raiser, anyone could go.
The subsequent donation was made public and its source (the event organiser) identified.

As for legislation - I think you told me to google things for myself...

[Banditbandit]

Silent T hid donations, and only refunded them after he was caught.

Where they "hidden" or did he simply not tell people they were made - and when was there a requirement for donations to a person be made public?


Key did something that is very common in politics on both sides - the source of the money was a public fund raiser, anyone could go.
The subsequent donation was made public and its source (the event organiser) identified.

It does not make it ethical - and hypocrisy is about ethics, not law - but many right wing people fail to miss the distinction.



As for legislation - I think you told me to google things for myself...

I did Oscar, I did. That's the problem. I could not find anything that says donations to a private individual to help pay for a campaign to become a political leader are illegal.

So I'm asking nicely - you're the one who claimed it was illegal - please show me how - I thought you might have been right - and it gave me a bit of a sleepless night because I could not find anything that says it was illegal ... and while we disagree on opinions and things, usually we agree on the facts ...

[Swoop]

It appears as if another of labour's "leaders in waiting" has some hidden trusts that need to be declared.

[HenryDorsetCase]

It appears as if another of labour's "leaders in waiting" has some hidden trusts that need to be declared.

Spill for those of us who try not to follow local politics?

[Banditbandit]

It appears as if another of labour's "leaders in waiting" has some hidden trusts that need to be declared.

Huh ??? Labour has another "leader in waiting" ??? .. It might be useful if you tell the party that - they need them now !!!

[SPman]

It appears as if another of labour's "leaders in waiting" has some hidden trusts that need to be declared.
Whereas National just has it's normal list of corrupt ministers....this week....Judith Collins (again), Amy Adams and Nathan Guy selling citizenship for a large donation to the National party. But, they're national MP's so it's quite alright and the Nats are good at "When shit happens, the right try to diffuse by smearing all politicians."

And the books are worse than forecast by the Nats by $670,000,000, so, quick - trot out the "change the flag" crap to divert attention - bread and circusses for the masses.

Fuck you guys are stupid!

[mashman]

Whereas National just has it's normal list of corrupt ministers....this week....Judith Collins (again), Amy Adams and Nathan Guy selling citizenship for a large donation to the National party. But, they're national MP's so it's quite alright and the Nats are good at "When shit happens, the right try to diffuse by smearing all politicians."

And the books are worse than forecast by the Nats by $670,000,000, so, quick - trot out the "change the flag" crap to divert attention - bread and circusses for the masses.

Fuck you guys are stupid!

Aren't the nats getting a shitload of new blood after the next erection? That'll mean less corruption, right?

[Banditbandit]

Whereas National just has it's normal list of corrupt ministers....this week....Judith Collins (again), Amy Adams and Nathan Guy selling citizenship for a large donation to the National party. But, they're national MP's so it's quite alright and the Nats are good at "When shit happens, the right try to diffuse by smearing all politicians."

And the books are worse than forecast by the Nats by $670,000,000, so, quick - trot out the "change the flag" crap to divert attention - bread and circusses for the masses.

Fuck you guys are stupid!

"You must spread ..."

[Oscar]

Whereas National just has it's normal list of corrupt ministers....this week....Judith Collins (again), Amy Adams and Nathan Guy selling citizenship for a large donation to the National party. But, they're national MP's so it's quite alright and the Nats are good at "When shit happens, the right try to diffuse by smearing all politicians."

And the books are worse than forecast by the Nats by $670,000,000, so, quick - trot out the "change the flag" crap to divert attention - bread and circusses for the masses.

Fuck you guys are stupid!

It's a good thing that there are clever guys like you around to guide us peasants...

[SPman]

It's a good thing that there are clever guys like you around to guide us peasants...Clever - Hah. If I was so clever, why am I still working!

Lets face it - most people, unless it directly affects them, keep well away from politics and what is going on in the country - they are content to get what info they do get, from the MSM, and if you have the MSM on your side, you can tell the bulk of the populace what you want them to hear and a large proportion will believe it....because it's the voice of perceived authority. The MSM in NZ is well and truly sided with the current government, apart from the odd "mistake" or attempted breakout by the occasional reporter, so pretty much whatever they want to put across, gets put across.

As long as it isn't costing them money or stuff, most people are then quite content to go along to get along, for better or for worse. They seem to believe all sorts of crap, because they don't know any better - and they don't know any better because they aren't being informed properly, which a decent media would see as a prerequisite of it's existence - not a mass entertainment, shock horror expose bullshit system designed to sell advertising!

Corruption, self interest, deceit and "Fuck you'dness" has always been there, but, in NZ politics has generally been at a low level (No, Helen Clark was not corrupt, just stupid at times), but the current government, with Teflon John at the helm seems to have elevated it to their main reason for being. This current government doesn't give a shit about the population - the common good. It doesn't give a shit about small business - who all seem to beleive that the right will always be their saviour when, if you look at history, they get shafted under a right leaning gov. the same as all the rest. All the right concern themselves with, is a small "elite", which they seem to consider they are, which includes big business - and their swarms of small time wannabees who cling to their coat tails in the hope some of the "eliteness" will rub of on them.........but they are deluding themselves.

You use peasant as a derogatory term.......like a superior talking down to an inferior......guess that says a lot about your attitude to others.......

[carbonhed]

Whereas National just has it's normal list of corrupt ministers....this week....Judith Collins (again), Amy Adams and Nathan Guy selling citizenship for a large donation to the National party. But, they're national MP's so it's quite alright and the Nats are good at "When shit happens, the right try to diffuse by smearing all politicians."

And the books are worse than forecast by the Nats by $670,000,000, so, quick - trot out the "change the flag" crap to divert attention - bread and circusses for the masses.

Fuck you guys are stupid!

Fuck you talk endless shit.

Donghua Liu was granted permanent residence in 2005 by Damian O'Connor who overruled his officials in doing so. Ministers have that discretion and use it in about 6% of cases.

Taito Phillip Field used it quite extensively.

Maybe you're thinking of that other Liu. Bill was it? Great mate of Dover Samuels. Wanted by Interpol, multiple identities, gave big donation to Labour prior to citizenship being granted, granted his citizenship in a special ceremony in the Labour Party caucus room!

Is that the Liu you're thinking of?

Here's an article by Chris Trotter. Don't have much time for the fuckwit but at least he's always had the balls to call himself a socialist and not whatever politically correct, cringing, phrase du jour might be fashionable amongst the latte sippers.

We're FUCKED! Every man for himself! (http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.co.nz/2014/03/all-over-bar-counting.html)

[Swoop]

Clever - Hah. If I was so clever, why am I still working!
Because you voted labour.


:blip:

[HenryDorsetCase]

Clever - Hah. If I was so clever, why am I still working!

Lets face it - most people, unless it directly affects them, keep well away from politics and what is going on in the country - they are content to get what info they do get, from the MSM, and if you have the MSM on your side, you can tell the bulk of the populace what you want them to hear and a large proportion will believe it....because it's the voice of perceived authority. The MSM in NZ is well and truly sided with the current government, apart from the odd "mistake" or attempted breakout by the occasional reporter, so pretty much whatever they want to put across, gets put across.


the issue is that unless you use the MSM you end up listening either to the voices in your head or to the lunatics that Akzle and SMOKEU listen to.

Its the death of western civilisation, man.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Because you voted labour.


:blip:

I'm still working too, and I sure as shit didn't vote for them.

Or Nazional.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Taito Phillip Field used it quite extensively.


One finds it difficult to understand how using an example of New Zealands only actually corrupt pollie bosters your case. Kindly elucidate for the peasants.

[carbonhed]

One finds it difficult to understand how using an example of New Zealands only actually corrupt pollie bosters your case. Kindly elucidate for the peasants.

Really? You've got a lefty wanker banging on about some totally fabricated corruption ... and you can't slip in a little Taito Phillip Field??? Is he out of jail yet? Did Labour ever apologise for defending him? How about Helen Clark... before she winged off to the UN?

Yeah... nah.

[SPman]

Because you voted labour.


:blip:

Not for a while.......:wacko:

[SPman]

Fuck you talk endless shit. - well - this is KB - I'm not alone in that!

Donghua Liu was granted permanent residence in 2005 by Damian O'Connor who overruled his officials in doing so. Ministers have that discretion and use it in about 6% of cases.

Taito Phillip Field used it quite extensively.

Maybe you're thinking of that other Liu. Bill was it? Great mate of Dover Samuels. Wanted by Interpol, multiple identities, gave big donation to Labour prior to citizenship being granted, granted his citizenship in a special ceremony in the Labour Party caucus room!

Is that the Liu you're thinking of?

Here's an article by Chris Trotter. Don't have much time for the fuckwit but at least he's always had the balls to call himself a socialist and not whatever politically correct, cringing, phrase du jour might be fashionable amongst the latte sippers.

We're FUCKED! Every man for himself! (http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.co.nz/2014/03/all-over-bar-counting.html)

However, one of Mr Liu's business partners approached Mr Williamson and John Banks — the Mayor of Auckland at the time — and they wrote to the Minister of Internal Affairs, Nathan Guy, asking him to grant citizenship against the official advice...............Mr Williamson and Mr Key opened the first stage of a $70 million property development project in Newmarket in 2011, the refurbishment of the Boulevard Hotel, described as the "brainchild" of Mr Liu.
Both Mr Williamson and Mr Banks declined to comment on their support for Mr Liu's citizenship because it was a "constituency matter".

.

Taito Fields and some other Labourites deserved what they got - there are a couple of others who should have been put against the wall as well, but we are talking current government here, two terms in, and they just don't stack up particularly well, by any standards! Don't they have any sense at all of public perception, or are they all so arrogant or dumb, they don't give a shit.

[carbonhed]

Taito Fields and some other Labourites deserved what they got - there are a couple of others who should have been put against the wall as well, but we are talking current government here, two terms in, and they just don't stack up particularly well, by any standards! Don't they have any sense at all of public perception, or are they all so arrogant or dumb, they don't give a shit.

So he got residence under Labour. Citizenship under National. Built a $70 million hotel..... and what? Gave a donation to the political party of his choice? Oh the horror!

[Oscar]

You use peasant as a derogatory term.......like a superior talking down to an inferior......guess that says a lot about your attitude to others.......

Actually it says more about my opinion of you.
Given that I was gently taking the piss, and you found that to be a cue to air more views about how gullable and stupid other people are, I'd say it was your attitude to others that was the problem.

[HenryDorsetCase]

So he got residence under Labour. Citizenship under National. Built a $70 million hotel..... and what? Gave a donation to the political party of his choice? Oh the horror!

If he is living more than paycheck to paycheck then CLEARLY he is a capitalist, and thus a corruptor, and in the queue to be put against the wall when the revolution comes.

Its not difficult really.

[HenryDorsetCase]

So he got residence under Labour. Citizenship under National. Built a $70 million hotel..... and what? Gave a donation to the political party of his choice? Oh the horror!

You spelt Liarbour and Nazional wrong. Incorrectly.

I love KB after I've had a few beers. Its hilarious.

[oldrider]

You spelt Liarbour and Nazional wrong. Incorrectly.

I love KB after I've had a few beers. Its hilarious.

I love KB after you have had a few beers too ....it "is" hilarious! .... Same as when you are sober too! ... Such talent! :bleh:

[carbonhed]

29.5%. The man's a genius.

"Silent T" FTW (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11221487)

[Swoop]

Spill for those of us who try not to follow local politics?
It seems the MP hasn't declared, as required.
There is a period of time when errant person/s can "remember" certain things...
Put 1st July into your diary, as that is when time runs out.

[carbonhed]

Audrey Young on Labour (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/audrey-young/news/article.cfm?a_id=164&objectid=11221884)

The Digipoll was conducted a couple of days after "silent T's" trust issues and covered the whole of the Judith Collins wankfest. John Key goes up 4.6% and National sits on 50.8%.

Must be time for the leftards to console themselves with how amazingly intelligent they really are and, of course, how stupid the general public is.

[R650R]

I don't know why people get so worked up about what politicians are up to. We all know they are a pack of players taking us for a ride till next election, its no shock there is some BS along the way.
BTW the whole middle class thing is just an illusion so those working a little bit harder than say factory workers think they are special. He wasn't wrong calling himself middle class as the upper class is the mega rich, the ones who buy beaches and islands, not a holiday package to visit briefly. Anything under say $400 000 a year and your still eating at the same supermarkets and restaurants as those below you, living in same suburbs and same size houses really...

[carbonhed]

He wasn't wrong calling himself middle class as the upper class is the mega rich, the ones who buy beaches and islands, not a holiday package to visit briefly. Anything under say $400 000 a year and your still eating at the same supermarkets and restaurants as those below you, living in same suburbs and same size houses really...

So where does a $2.5 million home and $500k + pa household income put you?

[skippa1]

I don't know why people get so worked up about what politicians are up to. We all know they are a pack of players taking us for a ride till next election, its no shock there is some BS along the way.
BTW the whole middle class thing is just an illusion so those working a little bit harder than say factory workers think they are special. He wasn't wrong calling himself middle class as the upper class is the mega rich, the ones who buy beaches and islands, not a holiday package to visit briefly. Anything under say $400 000 a year and your still eating at the same supermarkets and restaurants as those below you, living in same suburbs and same size houses really...
You need to get off the hallucinogenic's.......$400k pa middle class? Pfft

[R650R]

So where does a $2.5 million home and $500k + pa household income put you?

Still middle class really, the more people earn the more they borrow. The upper class is the 1% with family money and investments.
Anything below having your own personal private jet/island/waiter/butler/mistress/mechanic is middle class.
I have a mate who has held several corporate level management jobs etc... he seemed a bit put out when after blabbing on about his 90K salary and company car and posh Havelock north post code when I pointed out that he was only 20k above my current job at the time truck driving. His house was same size and quality as mine, shopped at same supermarkets, holiday at same places etc....
The media/political con of what people think the class levels are is just a distraction so we can call the poorer people names and not notice the rubbish job the govt is doing overall for everyone.

[avgas]

They seem to have a bag full of these fuckers
It's called the Beehive. Did you vote for it?

[avgas]

National - "I'm going to fuck you up the arse!"
Labour - "I'm going to make love to you.......then fuck you up the arse"
Greens - "If we just put this stick here *, see its more natural and you will feel better" (* up your arse)
Maori - "We are going to first fuck the white people up the arse......then the black people"
Mana - "This is called prison sex bitch"
Libertarianz - "I didn't say I was going to make love to you, that's gay......I'm going to fuck you up the arse"

Who'd I miss?

[rustyrobot]

Who'd I miss?

Ha!

Conservatives - "Here's a letter from my lawyer saying I'm going to fuck you up the arse"

NZFirst ??

[mashman]

Who'd I miss?

ACT - "We're going to fuck you up the arse at the tea party."

[skippa1]

It's called the Beehive. Did you vote for it?
They voted on having the beehive?

[avgas]

They voted on having the beehive?
Nope - just the people in it.

If you chose a person to go in, you chose for them to represent you. Which means you have no say in what your life is - only they do.
Power is given not taken. True story. Its leadership 101 at most universities in the world.

[avgas]

NZFirst ??
"You will formally address me while I fuck you up the arse. None of this new generation bullshit. When you retire, you deserve to get fucked less in the arse.......we should fuck the young in the arse more to compensate."

or my personal favourite

"In my days we got fucked in the arse, why should we change that for you?"

[skippa1]

Nope - just the people in it.

If you chose a person to go in, you chose for them to represent you. Which means you have no say in what your life is - only they do.
Power is given not taken. True story. Its leadership 101 at most universities in the world.
Did you vote?

[avgas]

Did you vote?
Unfortunately I used to. I was young and naive back then, thought it was the right thing to do.

It stopped when I cottoned on as to what I was giving up, and whom it was going to.

[skippa1]

Unfortunately I used to. I was young and naive back then, thought it was the right thing to do.

It stopped when I cottoned on as to what I was giving up, and whom it was going to.

Ok. You can't have an opinion on the contents of the beehive

[avgas]

Ok. You can't have an opinion on the contents of the beehive
Why? I paid for it.

[rustyrobot]

Ok. You can't have an opinion on the contents of the beehive

That old gem. I still assert that the opposite is true. You buy into it, you have no right to complain. Like some fool who plays blackjack - if another number comes up - tough luck, you bought in you can't whinge about it. Those who don't play are totally entitled to say "what a sucker - he thought he could beat the house".

[Banditbandit]

NZFirst ??

What part of 'I'm going to fuck you up the arse' don't you understand???

[oldrider]

What part of 'I'm going to fuck you up the arse' don't you understand???

So the rumour is true, you are related to Hone then. :mellow:

[Banditbandit]

So the rumour is true, you are related to Hone then. :mellow:


Naaa ... not true at all ... MY relations are a fair way south of there ...

But how about this ??? Shane Jones going with Winnie?

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/mp/22087029/shane-jones-may-defect-to-new-zealand-first/

Two suicidal politicians in one year ?

[oldrider]

Naaa ... not true at all ... MY relations are a fair way south of there ...

But how about this ??? Shane Jones going with Winnie?

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/mp/22087029/shane-jones-may-defect-to-new-zealand-first/

Two suicidal politicians in one year ?

Hmmmm there must be lot of undercurrent stuff going on because there is very little of any consequence going on on top! :shutup:

[skippa1]

Why? I paid for it.

Everyone did

[skippa1]

That old gem. I still assert that the opposite is true. You buy into it, you have no right to complain. Like some fool who plays blackjack - if another number comes up - tough luck, you bought in you can't whinge about it. Those who don't play are totally entitled to say "what a sucker - he thought he could beat the house".
You can let shit happen to you or you can make shit happen.


opting out simply allows shit to happen to you

[mashman]

You can let shit happen to you or you can make shit happen.


opting out simply allows shit to happen to you

By voting to be governed?

And the difference in outcome between one who votes and one who doesn't vote is?

[skippa1]

By voting to be governed?

And the difference in outcome between one who votes and one who doesn't vote is?
There is no choice as to being governed.......it's what we do here. You might not like it, you might not agree with it, but it happens anyway.
to vote is to have some say in who governs and how they govern. To not vote, is to accept whatever the majority of voters have voted for.
the difference? One grizzles with just cause, whilst another just grizzles.

[avgas]

Everyone did
So everyone pays for something, but some are not allowed to discuss it?
Terribly sorry, I thought NZ was a free land. I won't speak ill of politicians again.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/XxyB29bDbBA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

Opps I did it again. I promise next time I won't speak ill of them.

[avgas]

You can let shit happen to you or you can make shit happen.
So nothing happened outside of voting for it?

Thank goodness you don't have to think for yourself. You don't happen to have any dependents under you do you? If so do let the authorities know so they can take them into care.

[skippa1]

So everyone pays for something, but some are not allowed to discuss it?
Terribly sorry, I thought NZ was a free land. I won't speak ill of politicians again.

You can go back to sucking the old mans cock now.


Opps I did it again. I promise next time I won't speak ill of them.
Pffft symantics.
you don't get to grizzle if you choose to opt out

[skippa1]

So nothing happened outside of voting for it?

Thank goodness you don't have to think for yourself. You don't happen to have any dependents under you do you? If so do let the authorities know so they can take them into care.
A thinking man chooses his fate

[avgas]

There is no choice as to being governed.......it's what we do here. You might not like it, you might not agree with it, but it happens anyway.
to vote is to have some say in who governs and how they govern. To not vote, is to accept whatever the majority of voters have voted for.
the difference? One grizzles with just cause, whilst another just grizzles.
So there is no way to stop the grizzling? What a terrible way to live. Like indefinite torture.

[avgas]

Pffft symantics.
you don't get to grizzle if you choose to opt out
Yes I do. Its the glory of being a NZ citizen.
People fought in wars for that kind of stuff.

I could say that you don't get to grizzle because you asked for it.........but the fact of the matter is you do get to grizzle. Because NZ society is not as closed as you might think.
There is no law preventing either of us complaining.

Of course the argument about complaining about something you asked for. Well I'm no neuroscience-person........but I believe it would fall under the masochistic side of the psyche. Unless they held a gun to your head, then told you to vote.......in which case I am truly sorry.

[skippa1]

So there is no way to stop the grizzling? What a terrible way to live. Like indefinite torture.
Only yours.....there's no way to stop yours. Luckily I don't live with you

[avgas]

A thinking man chooses his fate
Fate cannot be chosen. That is why it is called fate and not "possibility".

[skippa1]

Yes I do. Its the glory of being a NZ citizen.
Living in the USA .....best place for you

[avgas]

Only yours.....there's no way to stop yours. Luckily I don't live with you
Why can't mine stop? What is preventing it from stopping?

A solution? or simply a removal of a problem?

[skippa1]

Fate cannot be chosen. That is why it is called fate and not "possibility".
Replace with outcomes

[avgas]

Living in the USA .....best place for you
Do tell why? If its just to get away from you - as you can tell from this forum it doesn't seem to count.

[avgas]

Replace with outcomes
Possibilities have outcomes.
You did learn past present and future?

[skippa1]

Possibilities have outcomes.
You did learn past present and future?
I'm not going to engage for the sake swapping interpretations and or semantics for your entertainment. Too busy. :wavey:

[BoristheBiter]

Possibilities have outcomes.
You did learn past present and future?

Here's a question for you,
Should people living oversea's be allowed to vote?
I'm not meaning those on a holiday but those that now live and work in a different country.

[mashman]

There is no choice as to being governed.......it's what we do here. You might not like it, you might not agree with it, but it happens anyway.
to vote is to have some say in who governs and how they govern. To not vote, is to accept whatever the majority of voters have voted for.
the difference? One grizzles with just cause, whilst another just grizzles.

Yes there is, there's always a choice and alas, it is what we do here. Choosing to leave the status quo as the status quo brings nothing but the status quo. No, I don't like that I am forcibly governed, no I don't agree that I should be forcibly governed, it doesn't have to happen.
Given that there is absolutely nothing for me to vote for, I don't get a say as to who I want to be my representative. To not vote is the only course left available to me. Yes, to not vote doesn't change the outcome at all and even if I voted for the party who won, the outcome will still be exactly the same, the status quo. But it is most definitely not acceptance and you can bet yer arse I will voice my disapproval at my not having something to vote for that I believe in, moreover I will voice my disapproval towards those who do vote and those who are voted. It is my right and no vote will ever remove that right.
The difference, is that you believe you have some right over me, you don't, none, zero, not a single fuckin iota of power... and all because you tick a box on a piece of paper to maintain the status quo. It goes beyond being a pathetic excuse and an ignorant view point because you are deciding for me and hiding behind a supposed majority that have limited choices. It's hardly surprising the place is such a mess with such moronic attitudes rattling around in narrow minds. Grow the fuck up man.

[mashman]

A thinking man chooses his fate

You do realise that that means you have no right to grizzle? You chose your fate, don't cry to mummy when it goes tits. I choose not to vote on principle i.e. thought, yet I am not allowed to grizzle that there isn't a box to tick? Oh the ironing.

[rustyrobot]

You can let shit happen to you or you can make shit happen.


opting out simply allows shit to happen to you

Shit will happen to you no matter who you vote for. The fact that you have absolutely no say once the party is in power makes clear what a farce representative democracy is. The party are not held to account for their election promises, they do not consult meaningfully on changes to legislation. Look at the number of people who complain about law changes here, when you read political discussion on this site a number of them are also National voters. Same would have been true if Labour was in government.

There are many ways to create (positive) change in your local environment - ticking a box on a voting form is probably one of the least potent or useful.

[skippa1]

Yes there is, there's always a choice and alas, it is what we do here. Choosing to leave the status quo as the status quo brings nothing but the status quo. No, I don't like that I am forcibly governed, no I don't agree that I should be forcibly governed, it doesn't have to happen.
Given that there is absolutely nothing for me to vote for, I don't get a say as to who I want to be my representative. To not vote is the only course left available to me. Yes, to not vote doesn't change the outcome at all and even if I voted for the party who won, the outcome will still be exactly the same, the status quo. But it is most definitely not acceptance and you can bet yer arse I will voice my disapproval at my not having something to vote for that I believe in, moreover I will voice my disapproval towards those who do vote and those who are voted. It is my right and no vote will ever remove that right.
The difference, is that you believe you have some right over me, you don't, none, zero, not a single fuckin iota of power... and all because you tick a box on a piece of paper to maintain the status quo. It goes beyond being a pathetic excuse and an ignorant view point because you are deciding for me and hiding behind a supposed majority that have limited choices. It's hardly surprising the place is such a mess with such moronic attitudes rattling around in narrow minds. Grow the fuck up man.
The fact that my opinion does not align with yours does not mean I need to grow up. In fact, to make such a statement clearly demonstrates your lack of maturity. Further.....if your expression of frustration is a demonstration of the political views you hold, we are clearly better off with the current situation than your perception of political utopia.

[skippa1]

You do realise that that means you have no right to grizzle? You chose your fate, don't cry to mummy when it goes tits. I choose not to vote on principle i.e. thought, yet I am not allowed to grizzle that there isn't a box to tick? Oh the ironing.
It isn't me that's crying, you cry as a result of your choice to abstain from voting. Welcome to consequence

[mashman]

The fact that my opinion does not align with yours does not mean I need to grow up. In fact, to make such a statement clearly demonstrates your lack of maturity. Further.....if your expression of frustration is a demonstration of the political views you hold, we are clearly better off with the current situation than your perception of political utopia.

Yet your opinion that I have no right to complain because I do not vote because there is nothing to vote for is mature? I ain't frustrated, I wasmerely covering as many bases as I could. :rofl:@utopia.

[mashman]

It isn't me that's crying, you cry as a result of your choice to abstain from voting. Welcome to consequence

I don't abstain.

[skippa1]

I don't abstain.
Well it's some sort of stain

[BoristheBiter]

I don't abstain.

abstain
əbˈsteɪn/Submit
verb
1.
restrain oneself from doing or enjoying something.

2.
formally decline to vote either for or against a proposal or motion.

[rustyrobot]

It isn't me that's crying, you cry as a result of your choice to abstain from voting. Welcome to consequence

I know right - his one vote would have changed the entire election. It's clearly ALL your fault mashy.

[BoristheBiter]

I know right - his one vote would have changed the entire election. It's clearly ALL your fault mashy.

It is, didn't you get the memo?

[mashman]

Well it's some sort of stain

S'ok, you can say wank or cum stain on here.


abstain
əbˈsteɪn/Submit
verb
1.
restrain oneself from doing or enjoying something.

2.
formally decline to vote either for or against a proposal or motion.

1. I'm pretty sure that voting isn't as orgasmic as people make it out to be.

2. I am registered to vote. I am willing to vote. Give me something to vote for.


I know right - his one vote would have changed the entire election. It's clearly ALL your fault mashy.

You cunt... I can take that shit from anyone else, but from you :crybaby:

[Ocean1]

By voting to be governed?

And the difference in outcome between one who votes and one who doesn't vote is?

The first sort determine government. The second sort don't, they're fuckwits to a man, you can pick 'em at a thousand yards by the whining.

"Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." - Winston Churchill.

[skippa1]

S'ok, you can say wank or cum stain
Thanks for your permission cum stain

[mashman]

The first sort determine government. The second sort don't, they're fuckwits to a man, you can pick 'em at a thousand yards by the whining.

"Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." - Winston Churchill.

Not all of the first sort so. Meh.

There are more forms of government to try... including none at all. Ideally skipping from the current government model to no government model would be perfect. If it weren't for the crusty old farts, there'd be no problem with that. But noooo... they need have their entitlement complex to think about.

[mashman]

Thanks for your permission cum stain

You didn't need my permission... ahhhhh, so that's why you vote. You need permission to exist. You have my permission to carry on being good little subservient.

[skippa1]

You didn't need my permission... ahhhhh, so that's why you vote. You need permission to exist. You have my permission to carry on being good little subservient.
I vote because it's my right to. Cum stain.

[mashman]

I vote because it's my right to. Cum stain.

I have the same right too. Wow, we could be twins... although I must be the more discerning one, because even thought I have that right it doesn't mean that I'll settle for any old shit like too many of the knuckle fuckers of this world.

[carbonhed]

There are more forms of government to try... including none at all. Ideally skipping from the current government model to no government model would be perfect. If it weren't for the crusty old farts, there'd be no problem with that. But noooo... they need have their entitlement complex to think about.

From the modelling I've seen on alternative forms of goverment the whining Pommy bastards get killed and eaten very early on... so be careful what you wish for :laugh:

[mashman]

From the modelling I've seen on alternative forms of goverment the whining Pommy bastards get killed and eaten very early on... so be careful what you wish for :laugh:

Now worries, I'll have been fed so much kiwi shite by then, I'll taste "normal" to ya :D

[Ocean1]

Not all of the first sort so. Meh.

Nope, just a majority, which is a slight improvement over the tiny minority most other systems use.

And I think I mentioned that the ones that don't bother participating simply don't count?


There are more forms of government to try... including none at all. Ideally skipping from the current government model to no government model would be perfect.

I'm sure someone's got a list of systems that have never in all of human history been attempted. Somewhere. But given that there's thousands upon thousands of years of history of "none" failing with the loss of all hands I'd say anyone proposing more of the same would almost certainly have to be full of shit.


If it weren't for the crusty old farts, there'd be no problem with that. But noooo... they need have their entitlement complex to think about.

"An entitlement is a guarantee of access to something, such as to welfare benefits, based on established rights or by legislation.[1][2] A "right" is itself an entitlement associated with a moral or social principle, such that an "entitlement" is a provision made in accordance with a legal framework of a society. Typically, entitlements are based on concepts of principle ("rights") which are themselves based in concepts of social equality or enfranchisement."

So, y'see those old farts are perfectly correct in their belief that they're entitled to whatever provisions their society agreed to make them.

Anyone proposing they should have some form of entitlement to anything whatsoever from a society governed by "none" is clearly not only the one with a spectacularly debilitating complex but is also obviously substantially fucked in the head.

But don't let that stop you filing whatever forms "none" require in order that you gain whatever benefits have been utterly failed to have been specifically accumulated for the purpose and posting them to whatever fuckoff dreamland you think gives a fuck.

[mashman]

Nope, just a majority, which is a slight improvement over the tiny majority most other systems use.

And I think I mentioned that the ones that don't bother participating simply don't count?

A majority of those who voted. A group of people who haven't been offered any alternatives. You seem awfully confident that no other system could take the place of the current one. I'd like to know for sure.

You did and I didn't add that part of the post for 2 reasons. 1. because they don't count (fortunately you're stupid enough not to have realised that). Artichoke. I'm merely communicating with you as you often do with me in selecting that which I decide to pursue as an avenue of interest.



I'm sure someone's got a list of systems that have never in all of human history been attempted. Somewhere. But given that there's thousands upon thousands of years of history of "none" failing with the loss of all hands I'd say anyone proposing more of the same would almost certainly have to be full of shit.

Yet they haven't tried these systems under a modern day context. They have already dismissed them as unworkable. Fuckin idiots I'd call them, but hey, I am a minority.


Artichoke

[skippa1]

Now worries, I'll have been fed so much kiwi shite by then, I'll taste "normal" to ya :D
Are you a fucken pom?

[Ocean1]

Yet they haven't tried these systems under a modern day context. They have already dismissed them as unworkable. Fuckin idiots I'd call them, but hey, I am a minority.

That's because the extremely high modern living standards are caused by democratic governing systems. The causal link is obvious if you look at historic examples of alternative systems.

Which sorta makes anyone suggesting a change to a demonstrably inferior system the fucking idiot, dunnit? Good thing they're an insignificant tiny minority.

[mashman]

Are you a fucken pom?

It is where I was born and my wife has the vaginal burns to prove it.


That's because the extremely high modern living standards are caused by democratic governing systems. The causal link is obvious if you look at historic examples of alternative systems.

Which sorta makes anyone suggesting a change to a demonstrably inferior system the fucking idiot, dunnit? Good thing they're an insignificant tiny minority.

Are you saying that I want to do away with democracy? If so, you may need to reexamine what you think you know about........ no, hang on, I realise that that simply isn't going to happen, you are incapable.

Demonstrably inferior because you don't believe that people are capable of changing their minds. That sir, makes you the fuckin idiot. No, it's not a good thing at all and I want to know how insignificant that minority is. I'm not moronic enough to believe that this is as good as it gets.

[avgas]

Here's a question for you,
Should people living oversea's be allowed to vote?
I'm not meaning those on a holiday but those that now live and work in a different country.
I think voting should follow taxes. If you not paying tax - why should be able to vote......your not paying for whatever random decisions are made.
(That means everyone in NZ would be allowed to vote because they pay GST, but would limit people overseas as to their voting rights).

You don't pay you can't play. Its the same rule with most of life.

But the big question is; voting on what?

People vote on assbook/NZHerald/Guilable brunton every day for many things....... so you might want to be a bit more specific. I think pay = play thing makes it a little simpler. Means people have vested interest.

[avgas]

I'm not going to engage for the sake swapping interpretations and or semantics for your entertainment. Too busy. :wavey:
HA :laugh: doesn't want to argue semantics but thinks everyone should vote.
I'll leave you alone there. Clearly too busy for the details.

[avgas]

his one vote would have changed the entire election.
Here is hoping he wasn't colour blind then.

Makes me wonder though. Are blind people the most thoughtful voters? I mean they can't see people or colours or logos or anything. So they have to go off what they hear.

I suppose reading would still bias them a little though.

[skippa1]

It is where I was born
Explains everything

[mashman]

Explains everything

Only to a weak minded fool. Next you'll be saying that because people don't vote they aren't allowed to complain.

[Ocean1]

Are you saying that I want to do away with democracy? If so, you may need to reexamine what you think you know about........ no, hang on, I realise that that simply isn't going to happen, you are incapable.

Well given that the current government is a democratically elected one...


There are more forms of government to try... including none at all. Ideally skipping from the current government model to no government model would be perfect.

...and that you want to do away with it I'd say I'm not the only one incapable of fathoming what you're thinking about.


Demonstrably inferior because you don't believe that people are capable of changing their minds. That sir, makes you the fuckin idiot. No, it's not a good thing at all and I want to know how insignificant that minority is. I'm not moronic enough to believe that this is as good as it gets.

But you are moronic enough to think that denying you said something constitutes sound logic. And insignificant enough that any silly names you call people tend to cause far more humour than angst. So be a good chap and fuck off and earn some small aspect of your miserable existence for a change, eh?

[skippa1]

Only to a weak minded fool. Next you'll be saying that because people don't vote they aren't allowed to complain.
Next you'll be telling me poms don't complain:rolleyes:

[skippa1]

Now worries, I'll have been fed so much kiwi shite by then, I'll taste "normal" to ya :D
Here's a suggestion......if you think it's kiwi shit, fuck off back to where you came from

just sayin

[Ocean1]

I think voting should follow taxes. If you not paying tax - why should be able to vote......

... A system which in fact represents a workable negative feedback control loop.

Something that the practice of allowing an increasingly parasitic element a say in an economy they're only ever going to damage is not.

[mashman]

Next you'll be telling me poms don't complain:rolleyes:

Only the ones who vote. The rest raise concerns.


Here's a suggestion......if you think it's kiwi shit, fuck off back to where you came from

just sayin

I am where I was born. You're the one identifying my earth lineage as something different to your earth lineage. Division by border. Remarkably stupid.


Well given that the current government is a democratically elected one...

I didn't say the system of how government is chosen needs to change.



...and that you want to do away with it I'd say I'm not the only one incapable of fathoming what you're thinking about.

Only one of us is thinking here that's why... and it ain't you.



But you are moronic enough to think that denying you said something constitutes sound logic. And insignificant enough that any silly names you call people tend to cause far more humour than angst.

You translated what I said in a way that you decided I said it. Your logic flaw, not mine. I'm glad those names are received as humourous, it means that you've finally understood something that I have said, ergo, there is hope for you yet. Artichoke.

[Ocean1]

I didn't say the system of how government is chosen needs to change.

You have yet to say much else, in fact bleating and whining is about all we get from you. And yet, now apparently you don't have a problem with how the current system works. You've got to be the largest single source of self contradiction in the history of fuckwitdom, congratulations and fuck off.


Only one of us is thinking here that's why... and it ain't you.

Call it what you like, it changes whenever you decide you don't like what you've just said and it certainly isn't the product of any thinking on your part. Whatever it is I'm somewhat pleased none of it's attributable to me, it smells like shit and it's certainly sticking to you like shit.


You translated what I said in a way that you decided I said it. Your logic flaw, not mine. I'm glad those names are received as humourous, it means that you've finally understood something that I have said, ergo, there is hope for you yet. Artichoke.

I didn't translate anything, I just posted one of your wee rants that happened to precisely contradict another one. The fact that you can't see that is entirely consistent with your ever changing beliefs.

[mashman]

You have yet to say much else, in fact bleating and whining is about all we get from you. And yet, now apparently you don't have a problem with how the current system works. You've got to be the largest single source of self contradiction in the history of fuckwitdom, congratulations and fuck off.

Call it what you like, it changes whenever you decide you don't like what you've just said and it certainly isn't the product of any thinking on your part. Whatever it is I'm somewhat pleased none of it's attributable to me, it smells like shit and it's certainly sticking to you like shit.


You seem to be switching the system that elects a government and the system that a government operates under interchangeably. Silly boy.



I didn't translate anything. The fact that you can't see that

:facepalm: words cannot describe the epic fail... oh, they just did.

[skippa1]

Now worries, I'll have been fed so much kiwi shite by then, I'll taste "normal" to ya :D


. Division by border. Remarkably stupid.

If the cap fits.............or to use your own words
Epic fail

[mashman]

If the cap fits.............or to use your own words
Epic fail

That you can't differentiate between the contexts is amusing. Thanks for that.

[skippa1]

That you can't differentiate between the contexts is amusing. Thanks for that.
The fact that you speak with forked tongue is also amusing. You could be a politician

see what i did there?

[mashman]

The fact that you speak with forked tongue is also amusing. You could be a politician

see what i did there?

There was no forked tongue. Unfortunately I'm considering it.

Dunno what you mean.

[oldrider]

The fact that you speak with forked tongue is also amusing. You could be a politician

see what i did there?

Did you not know that many many New Zealanders speak with false teeth ... did you see what I did there too? :lol:

[skippa1]

Did you not know that many many New Zealanders speak with false teeth ... did you see what I did there too? :lol:
I did and an old rider should know that too:msn-wink:

[BoristheBiter]

You translated what I said in a way that you decided I said it. Your logic flaw, not mine.

You do the same to every post you disagree with.

[mashman]

You do the same to every post you disagree with.

I do... sometimes I get the context right too.

[BoristheBiter]

I do... sometimes I get the context right too.

But most of the time you just make shit up to fit what ever you are arguing over at the time.

[mashman]

but most of the time you just make shit up to fit what ever you are arguing over at the time.

yessssssss maaaaaassssterrrrrr.

[avgas]

... A system which in fact represents a workable negative feedback control loop.
Something that the practice of allowing an increasingly parasitic element a say in an economy they're only ever going to damage is not.
Note I stated "you pay you play". Amount was never a consideration. The few I have met in NZ who don't pay.......don't want to play and want to be left alone.

Note also I stated "vested interest" not "invested interest", the 2 are fundamentally different in terms of non-tangible buy-in.

[avgas]

Well given that the current government is a democratically elected one...
You do know the term Democratically is the same as stating trees are living things.

Some of us are not saying dump democracy. Just to fix it. Allow people to vote and elect more than just representatives.
Currently in NZ - referendums are non-binding. I ask - what is the point of having something that no-one has to check/use/compare?
Why waste time and effort?

Dictatorships seem a far more efficient means, if we simple elect representatives - why not just elect a dictator to tell us what to do? Save us all this hassle of referendums that no-one uses to make decisions. It would also save us having to be lied to.

Or we could make small changes in NZ (such as make all referendums binding) where every now and then, when the people speak - the government is forced to listen. Thus making us a stronger democracy. Rather than just a democratically elected, dictatorship ruled one.

Do you believe that a majority of NZ is too stupid to control their own lives? If so are you above or below average intelligence in NZ?

[BoristheBiter]

Note I stated "you pay you play". Amount was never a consideration. The few I have met in NZ who don't pay.......don't want to play and want to be left alone.


But that's the thing, people forget what is paid for.
So as long as they want to sit in a hut and never leave that's fine.
As soon as they leave, said hut, they can pay up like the rest of us.

[oldrider]

Voting only changes the players. It doesn’t change the game. :no:

Comment from Warren Buffet article in another thread suitable for repeating here! :yes:

[Robbo]

Politicians.......Don't you just love them..:eek:

[Ocean1]

Note I stated "you pay you play". Amount was never a consideration. The few I have met in NZ who don't pay.......don't want to play and want to be left alone.

Note also I stated "vested interest" not "invested interest", the 2 are fundamentally different in terms of non-tangible buy-in.

But the amount is definitely a required consideration for sustainability. We currently have 55% of taxpayers drawing more in benefits than they're contributing in tax.

That's fucking absurd. And it's what's driving the other effect you bitch about: arbitrary public service budget constraints. Like ACC's blanket denials for cover, based on nothing more than generic reasons designed to manage the budget.

I've had a senior polly tell me that's scope creep. Which is bullshit, I manage projects, I know what scope creep is. The problem's got the same solution, though: Define and cost the objectives adequately in the first place. As you say: require detailed budget plans for every cost centre for eligibility to govern, and then hold them to it. Stop the arseholes promising everything to everyone and then immediately breaking those promises.

The other thing that has to change, there: Middle income NZers have to live within their means. So firstly change the tax system so that govt doesn't take so much from them that they have to give some of it back in order to pay critical bills. And then restructure benefits so that just those that can't survive without them in fact receive them.

[Ocean1]

You do know the term Democratically is the same as stating trees are living things.

Some of us are not saying dump democracy. Just to fix it. Allow people to vote and elect more than just representatives.
Currently in NZ - referendums are non-binding. I ask - what is the point of having something that no-one has to check/use/compare?
Why waste time and effort?

Dictatorships seem a far more efficient means, if we simple elect representatives - why not just elect a dictator to tell us what to do? Save us all this hassle of referendums that no-one uses to make decisions. It would also save us having to be lied to.

Or we could make small changes in NZ (such as make all referendums binding) where every now and then, when the people speak - the government is forced to listen. Thus making us a stronger democracy. Rather than just a democratically elected, dictatorship ruled one.

Insomuch as there's lots of different flavours, yes. My point was that any of them are better than any of the alternatives.

Agree with most of the rest.


Do you believe that a majority of NZ is too stupid to control their own lives? If so are you above or below average intelligence in NZ?

I believe that a majority of NZ think they're entitled to more than they earn, see the above post.

[oldrider]

Maybe an electronic thingy like the X factor would do it ... whenever more than the "minority" push their button the big X lights up and a very loud buzzer goes off! :lol:

[SPman]

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/CSDIT55KeKc" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

This may shine more light on some of the fuckers......

[MisterD]

May as well bump this one up, looks like ol' Cunners is dog tucker.

http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/06/breaking-david-cunliffes-career/

Must be some kind of record number of opposition leaders to face a single PM, at least in modern history.:lol:

[BoristheBiter]

May as well bump this one up, looks like ol' Cunners is dog tucker.

http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/06/breaking-david-cunliffes-career/

Must be some kind of record number of opposition leaders to face a single PM, at least in modern history.:lol:

It's all Helen's doing.
She wouldn't have anyone that could think for themselves in her government so when she left no one knew what to do.
That is what happens when you have a dictator for a leader.

[oldrider]

May as well bump this one up, looks like ol' Cunners is dog tucker.

http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/06/breaking-david-cunliffes-career/

Must be some kind of record number of opposition leaders to face a single PM, at least in modern history.:lol:

I don't really think JK will be claiming he is in charge of Labours incompetence ... I think it is just the way they have always been!

The New Zealand public are so thick it takes soooo long to get through to them! ... He hasn't actually gone yet ... has he? :confused:

[Oscar]

He won't go, who would they replace him with?

[SPman]

Ah well, we may as well have the other sides reply to the Slater!

http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/06/18/whare-of-cards-the-manufactured-smear-attack-against-cunliffe/

Personally, I'd be happy if they all fell down a large hole, with stakes (and or snakes) in the bottom, and left us all to get on with it - I'm sure NZ would be better off with NO politicians......

[MisterD]

He won't go, who would they replace him with?

Grant? Jacindhahaha....I see your point.

The only party member I can see with any leadership quality about them is being told to gift Hone the Northern Maorimander seat.

[Oscar]

Ah well, we may as well have the other sides reply to the Slater!

http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/06/18/whare-of-cards-the-manufactured-smear-attack-against-cunliffe/

Personally, I'd be happy if they all fell down a large hole, with stakes (and or snakes) in the bottom, and left us all to get on with it - I'm sure NZ would be better off with NO politicians......

Actually based on the fact that you are commenting on the political process in public and obviously have a ideology dear to your heart (and there's nowt wrong wid dat), you'd probably have to go down the hole...

[mashman]

Personally, I'd be happy if they all fell down a large hole, with stakes (and or snakes) in the bottom, and left us all to get on with it - I'm sure NZ would be better off with NO politicians......

You're probably right.

[Robbo]

He does'nt appear to have been Labours best choice does he.:lol: