Programmers

[Sniper]

I am wanting to learn the basics of computer programming. I know my way around a computer quite well and I know a little bit about writing html. But could someone point me in the right direction on what language to use or some tutorials of programming please. Even if someone would be nice enough to maybe teach me a little :psst:

[Warren]

php is rather easy to learn. All you need is to set up apache web server with php on your home computer and MySQL database. PHP is a server side web scripting language and it is easy to find real applications where you can use your skills.

php.net has all the info you will need to know but a good book will always help.

[Sniper]

Thanks Warren

[Wolf]

If you go to here (http://gnuwin.epfl.ch/apps/en/bestlist.html) you will find MySQL and PHP under Servers and Databases and under Development you will find Python - another great programming language. Look around the site you may find others. All are Linux apps ported to Windoze - released under the GPL (which effectively means you can download them and use them for free)

Pascal is a great language to learn as it teaches you good structure and programming habits which are useful skills - especially if you ever decide to learn C.

Avoid any variant of BASIC unless you are already an experienced Pascal or C programmer as the (BASIC) language promotes sloppy programming habits.

[Sniper]

Yea, basically Im looking at any tutorials or help on learning C++ and how coding operates. (Im really thick on coding)

[Krayy]

Depends on what you're aspiring to do. If you can give us a bit more info on what you're aiming for skill-wise, we can give a bit more specific advice. Answer the following q's:

1. Web form processing and CGI's, or real programs that do something specific?
i.e. Do you want to run a Forum site like this one, or do you want to aim for a career in programming or write programs for fun that do something specific (like most standalone programs)

2: Whats the target platform?
Windows, Linux, UNIX etc

3. Do you want to make a living out of it?
Programming does not merely consist of writing stand alone programs. For example in my job, which is to administer and maintain a number f Unix and Windows servers, I have to do a lot of coding in Perl, Bourne/Korn shell, Windows batch and VBScript, PHP, Java, C and other pogram specific scripting languages. Most of the languages have similar traits, so choosing one or two to focus on for me is easy then I have a raft of manuals next to me to get the syntax right for the rest.


PS: PHP is good at CGI scripting, such as filling in web forms and processing that info, but not practical for much else.

[Wolf]

Yea, basically Im looking at any tutorials or help on learning C++ and how coding operates. (Im really thick on coding)
There is a ported-to-windoze C/C++ compiler under "Development" on the above link - all you should need is some good tutorials, a text editor (Notepad if need be) and the compiler - why pay for Borland or whatever?

You can learn the languages easy enough - just pray your mind works like a programmer because that can't be taught (though Edward De Bono has made a fortune selling books to "teach" it)

[sAsLEX]

try C as your first language, its pretty syntax heavy but alot of the stuff you learn in C switches across to the other languages you are likely to use.

Python is another handy to use language in that it doesn't need a seperate compiler and is cross platform but runs slower due to this.

C is a great place to start as it is used everywhere, navman stuff is written in C and most microcontrollers etc are in C

[Sniper]

Also, I have a lovely harbour bridge to sell you.

I saw that site. Basically I would like to write stand alone programs or alteratively I would like to do what Jrandom does. I understand and know how every bit of a computer goes together and I have built a couple with my late Dad so I am fairly confident in that respect..

[Wolf]

try C as your first language, its pretty syntax heavy but alot of the stuff you learn in C switches across to the other languages you are likely to use.

Python is another handy to use language in that it doesn't need a seperate compiler and is cross platform but runs slower due to this.

C is a great place to start as it is used everywhere, navman stuff is written in C and most microcontrollers etc are in C
The local Polytech used to teach Pascal first to get the students used to a structured language with a simple syntax before going on to the compleities of C. I went straight on to C as I had learned Pascal at college. Not used much, Pascal, but a bloody nice language and it taught me structure (people freak out when they see my BASIC code as it is neatly laid out, structured, easy to follow and usually well sprinkled with remarks. Also tends to be full of GOSUB commands as I still think in terms of Pascal's PROCEDURES.)

[sAsLEX]

The local Polytech used to teach Pascal first to get the students used to a structured language with a simple syntax before going on to the compleities of C. I went straight on to C as I had learned Pascal at college. Not used much, Pascal, but a bloody nice language and it taught me structure (people freak out when they see my BASIC code as it is neatly laid out, structured, easy to follow and usually well sprinkled with remarks. Also tends to be full of GOSUB commands as I still think in terms of Pascal's PROCEDURES.)

hell at uni we first learnt Matlab, then Java, then C, then python and maybe one more that I cant remember, but C just keeps popping up!

Now we are learning/using VHDL, oh god I miss proper programming languages

[Sniper]

So whats a basic langauge to start learning. I hear C++ is the most common

[Wolf]

oh god I miss proper programming languages
'kin tell me about it. I'm stuck on Hell Desk. Last "programming" I did was to write a DOS batch file to run a registry patch on every machine that logged into our network and write a bit in the Novell Login Script to invoke said batch file. WOOOHOOO!

Actually, most of the coding I do at the moment is probably manually writing the URL and /URL tags for my posts here on KB...

[Wolf]

So whats a basic langauge to start learning. I hear C++ is the most common
It's also very complex and full-featured. As I said above, Pascal has its benefits with the same need for structure (NEVER learn a non-structured language first off, it makes it harder later) but a simpler syntax.

There may be other languages with similar attributes to Pascal (easy to learn and structured) that I have never experienced.

[enigma51]

If you want a c/c++ compiler with a ide go here www.bloodshed.net I know bad name for a website

Its called dev c++ and free and its pretty good

[Sniper]

Is Pascal downloadable? Or tutorials on it?

[Krayy]

I saw that site. Basically I would like to write stand alone programs or alteratively I would like to do what Jrandom does. I understand and know how every bit of a computer goes together and I have built a couple with my late Dad so I am fairly confident in that respect..
Spokey-dokey, let's get into it.

Firstly, how a computer is physically put together doesn't matter. Programmers don't need to know that stuff (even though I was a hardware jockey for quite a few years on PCs and on servers the size of refrigerators) UNLESS they are writing programs or drivers that utilise a certain piece of hardware to it's maximum capability. In this case they would probably be using Assembler (machine code) that is specific to that hardware, and that ain't no fun unless you wear a propeller driven hat. Programs that fall into this category can also include games that require lots of graphics processing as well.

Which brings us to programmer libraries. A library is a collection of callable routines that do a specific task that prgrammers can use to stop re-inventing the wheel every time they start a new project. The most widely recognised library around might be DirectX, which includes libraries for graphics (DirectDraw), sound (Directsound), keyboard and joystick input (DirectInput) etc. The reason I'm mentioning libraries so early in the piece is this....if you want to do write a specific program, it's probably been done before and there is probably a library out there that you can use to do it with. Now a lot of libraries can only be used with specific programming languages without a lot of extra work, so this should be a factor when choosing what language to program in.

Some languages are very good across a wide number of platforms (C, Perl, Pascal) but some are more commercially viable (C++, VBScript). A lot of them are niche and won't do you a lot of good no matter how well you know them (Ruby). One of the main problems is learning how to use the language tools. Compiled languages like C and C++ mean you need to be familiar with how the compiler works before you can create large programs, which can be fairly daunting in itself. You have to learn about Make files, compiler directives, debug information etc. Pain. Interpreted languages like Perl and Python require that you install the binary interpreter (using a setup program in Windows or an RPM in Linux) and you're away. You write a program (script in these cases) and run it without any further mucking about.

Commercial programming is a pain in the arse. You have tight deadlines, usually have a lot of custom code that you need to become familiar with (so you need to be able to read and assimilate other peoples code quickly) and are limited in the tools available to you (i.e. they use Visual C++ or something that you may not be familiar with). Not a lot of commercial enterprises use freeware libraries. Also, to get a foot in the door you may need to have done some higher education courses (Tech, Uni, Computer college etc) in the language that they prefer and have some project mgmt skills so you can show that you can work to deadlines etc.

All that being said, I would choose Perl as my first stepping block. Its got a very similar syntax to C, so C programs become instantly recognisable, it has got some Object Oriented features, but you dont have to use them (unlike Python), it's got thousands or pre-made libraries (modules in Perl-speak) to do almost anything (download them from CPAN or use the PPM program that ships with Perl) and can be used to do anything from CGI scripting with Apache, database work with MySQL or PostgreSQL or Windows GUI apps with Tk. And there are thousands of excellent tutorials and reference docs on the web.

Download ActivePerl for windows here http://www.activestate.com/
(Perl is standard on all Linux distros, so you dont need a link to get it)

[enigma51]

Is Pascal downloadable? Or tutorials on it?
Same site has a pascal compiler and ide www.bloodshed.net

[Krayy]

Is Pascal downloadable? Or tutorials on it?
Pascal is esentially dead outside the classroom unless you want to learn to use Delphi, which is a kick arse Rapid Application Development (RAD) tool that should have toppled Visual Basic if not for the want of some decent advertising.

[enigma51]

Spokey-dokey, let's get into it.

Firstly, how a computer is physically put together doesn't matter. Programmers don't need to know that stuff (even though I was a hardware jockey for quite a few years on PCs and on servers the size of refrigerators) UNLESS they are writing programs or drivers that utilise a certain piece of hardware to it's maximum capability. In this case they would probably be using Assembler (machine code) that is specific to that hardware, and that ain't no fun unless you wear a propeller driven hat. Programs that fall into this category can also include games that require lots of graphics processing as well.

Which brings us to programmer libraries. A library is a collection of callable routines that do a specific task that prgrammers can use to stop re-inventing the wheel every time they start a new project. The most widely recognised library around might be DirectX, which includes libraries for graphics (DirectDraw), sound (Directsound), keyboard and joystick input (DirectInput) etc. The reason I'm mentioning libraries so early in the piece is this....if you want to do write a specific program, it's probably been done before and there is probably a library out there that you can use to do it with. Now a lot of libraries can only be used with specific programming languages without a lot of extra work, so this should be a factor when choosing what language to program in.

Some languages are very good across a wide number of platforms (C, Perl, Pascal) but some are more commercially viable (C++, VBScript). A lot of them are niche and won't do you a lot of good no matter how well you know them (Ruby). One of the main problems is learning how to use the language tools. Compiled languages like C and C++ mean you need to be familiar with how the compiler works before you can create large programs, which can be fairly daunting in itself. You have to learn about Make files, compiler directives, debug information etc. Pain. Interpreted languages like Perl and Python require that you install the binary interpreter (using a setup program in Windows or an RPM in Linux) and you're away. You write a program (script in these cases) and run it without any further mucking about.

Commercial programming is a pain in the arse. You have tight deadlines, usually have a lot of custom code that you need to become familiar with (so you need to be able to read and assimilate other peoples code quickly) and are limited in the tools available to you (i.e. they use Visual C++ or something that you may not be familiar with). Not a lot of commercial enterprises use freeware libraries. Also, to get a foot in the door you may need to have done some higher education courses (Tech, Uni, Computer college etc) in the language that they prefer and have some project mgmt skills so you can show that you can work to deadlines etc.

All that being said, I would choose Perl as my first stepping block. Its got a very similar syntax to C, so C programs become instantly recognisable, it has got some Object Oriented features, but you dont have to use them (unlike Python), it's got thousands or pre-made libraries (modules in Perl-speak) to do almost anything (download them from CPAN or use the PPM program that ships with Perl) and can be used to do anything from CGI scripting with Apache, database work with MySQL or PostgreSQL or Windows GUI apps with Tk. And there are thousands of excellent tutorials and reference docs on the web.

Download ActivePerl for windows here http://www.activestate.com/
(Perl is standard on all Linux distros, so you dont need a link to get it)


Most of it is on target but and understanding of how hardware work is a must if you intend to write decent code. Im must be honest working on a small windows box that use it home dont need to worry about those thing but when you work on servers an understanding of how things work is a must.

[John]

So whats a basic langauge to start learning. I hear C++ is the most common
Definatly start with C once you have gotten to grips with that the syntax transferrs to most languages and makes queer backwards crap like VB.net seem to easy - but then again you can start with PHP and work backwards because php is basicly a C syntax.

[Sniper]

Thanks guys, all this help is great. Im wanting to learn this because I enjoy working on computers and I would like to get programming under my belt for personal reasons.

Stu

[enigma51]

c or c++ is a good starting point then

[Marmoot]

Programming computers is great fun....

Haven't seen jrandom's posting for quite a while......welcome back :clap:

[Sniper]

Was just thinking that too marmoot. Welcome JR

[Flyingpony]

c or c++ is a good starting point then
2nd that..

[Sniper]

I stole, I mean borrowed a text book from a workmate on "Beginners Programming in C" hopefully I'll sort it. What else do I need program wise?

[dhunt]

I stole, I mean borrowed a text book from a workmate on "Beginners Programming in C" hopefully I'll sort it. What else do I need program wise?
Yip C is the best place to start and still one of the most popular languages around.

Basically to get going you need a compiler (something like gcc - takes english language and converts to machine language) and a IDE (sometime to type your english language in, notepad would be the most basica IDE I suppose or there are a range of better ones out there that colour the different words etc.

The best way to get started is as you read your book set yourself some project(s) and work your way at them. Don't start too differcult but give yourself something you are interested in. This way you don't get bored of it and will help you learn to apply what you have read.

[Sniper]

Thanks Dhunt

[Jeremy]

I'm going to differ from everyone else and say two other easy to acquire things.

1st choice: Java

Download the Java SDK and get JCreator [Simple editor that just works. No crazy stuff that Eclipse and Netbeans use]

Why Java? It's stable. As fast as C++ (Not as fast as C) and most importantly it gives decent error messages. And error messages are what you rely on when you starting off. And unlike C++ you don't have to deal with namespaces. The documentation is okay, not quite as good as say the MSDN docs.

2nd choice: Visual Basic 6 [Not .NET] . Quick results, most of the problems you'll have are due to poor programming techniques. Buy a decent book. Be prepared to learn maths, your sorting algorithms probably suck because you haven't had proper training not because of the language. Major advantage here is that if you have a runtime error then it'll drop you back to the ide, you can get edit and and resume from where you left off. Stay away from .NET, as you don't want to have to learn to program as well as learn .NET.

[gamgee]

gotta agree, i'm second year info science learning java, well actually learning how to implement databases with java now but thats just bragging :nono: have done a bit of VB and a bit of pearl(very little bit of the later) i like java the best, using eclipse which underlines errors and things you might want to fix as you go which is cool, um basically get into it, start learning the sooner you start the sooner you can start coding the things you want
http://computer.howstuffworks.com/program.htm

[enigma51]

I'm going to differ from everyone else and say two other easy to acquire things.

1st choice: Java

Download the Java SDK and get JCreator [Simple editor that just works. No crazy stuff that Eclipse and Netbeans use]

Why Java? It's stable. As fast as C++ (Not as fast as C) and most importantly it gives decent error messages. And error messages are what you rely on when you starting off. And unlike C++ you don't have to deal with namespaces. The documentation is okay, not quite as good as say the MSDN docs.

2nd choice: Visual Basic 6 [Not .NET] . Quick results, most of the problems you'll have are due to poor programming techniques. Buy a decent book. Be prepared to learn maths, your sorting algorithms probably suck because you haven't had proper training not because of the language. Major advantage here is that if you have a runtime error then it'll drop you back to the ide, you can get edit and and resume from where you left off. Stay away from .NET, as you don't want to have to learn to program as well as learn .NET.


Im sorry but you must fresh out of uni to think that java is as fast as c++ and then to say VB is great you must be on drugs.

[enigma51]

Sniper just go to bloodshed.net they have a cool ide (Coding window) and is pretty easy to use

[Jeremy]

Im sorry but you must fresh out of uni to think that java is as fast as c++ and then to say VB is great you must be on drugs.

Hey it's not my fault most people don't know that you have to do three things.

1) Strip out the debug info, that switch is there for a reason.
2) Switch the JVM to server mode. Watch as everything runs about 5x faster.
3) Use strings properly, stringbuffers are there fora reason.

[enigma51]

Hey it's not my fault most people don't know that you have to do three things.

1) Strip out the debug info, that switch is there for a reason.
2) Switch the JVM to server mode. Watch as everything runs about 5x faster.
3) Use strings properly, stringbuffers are there fora reason.


Sure mate what ever tickles you :violin:

[NordieBoy]

I've managed to stay far far away from C/C++ etc.

TCL/TK for gui stuff.
MySQL for db backends.

Something fun like Euphoria for playing with.

[gamgee]

whichever you learn first that will be the hard bit over, most languages are very similar so what i'm saying is once you've learnt one language you'll find it very easy to learn more

[Sniper]

Thanks guys, I having a play with C++. I'll keep you up to date and tell you how I go

[gamgee]

howstuffworks.com has good tutorials for most languages, take a look

[Wolf]

2nd choice: Visual Basic 6 [Not .NET]
He said he wanted to learn a programming language. :devil2:

[parsley]

I'm perpetually scared that one day my employer will notice that they're essentially giving me money to do what I'd be doing anyway if I had enough free time.
Yes, but you're a geek.

[dhunt]

Thanks guys, I having a play with C++. I'll keep you up to date and tell you how I go
Sniper I think you may find object oriented stuff a bit overwelming (sp?) at first so it might be better to learn c and then apply object oriented stuff but up you. C & C++ share lots of similiarities and can be mixed/matched to some degree sucessfully. Main thing is have fun, despire what others may think, IT IS POSSIBLE TO HAVE FUN PROGRAMMING :woohoo:

[Wolf]

Yes, but you're a geek.
Are you saying that's a Bad Thing?

[parsley]

Are you saying that's a Bad Thing?
I've been programming since I was 8, got a Masters in Software Engineering and been doing it professionally since 19 (ish).

But at least I'm not a geek! :Punk:

[Warren]

IT IS POSSIBLE TO HAVE FUN PROGRAMMING :woohoo:

But is it also possible to get a girlfriend?

[Wolf]

I've been programming since I was 8, got a Masters in Software Engineering and been doing it professionally since 19 (ish).

But at least I'm not a geek! :Punk:
Correct - you are an Ubergeek to whom we lesser geeks must bow...

[John]

Hey it's not my fault most people don't know that you have to do three things.

1) Strip out the debug info, that switch is there for a reason.
2) Switch the JVM to server mode. Watch as everything runs about 5x faster.
3) Use strings properly, stringbuffers are there fora reason.
dont even say java. dont even think of it - dont even imply its good I will hurt you and your ... "code"?

[Wolf]

But is it also possible to get a girlfriend?
That is a gross generalisation! Green bling duly awarded.

[dhunt]

But is it also possible to get a girlfriend?
<img src="http://www.thinkgeek.com/images/products/zoom/seg-fault.jpg">

[John]

<img src="http://www.thinkgeek.com/images/products/zoom/seg-fault.jpg">
bahayhhahahahahahahahaha

[Pathos]

Java IS THE BEST LANGUAGE TO LEARN FROM SCRATCH. Garbage Collection and a huge API mean its easy to program and to achieve your goals. It has a strong focus on good Object orientation with out many of the difficulties. Java also has one of best textbooks Headfirst Java or something. And all the software is free.

Next would be Delphi, its pascal with Object oriented features.
Excellent Developement enviroment. Its incredibly easy to make windows programs with. Just point and click then add specialised code. The environment is much easier to use than VB.

STAY AWAY FROM VB its shite. Get delphi instead.

C, C++ : The benefits of these languages are unusable without years of experience. I have spend years learning these and still find it redundant unless building games or commercial level applications. There reason for this is that external code is usually cumbersome for increased efficiency (DirectX :oi-grr: , windows API).

If you want to do web stuff you need php+sql.

[Sniper]

I am getting help from a good mate of mine who does alot of programming and is sorted by quite a few companies in CHCH. I wont tell you what I plan on learning because Im not going to jinx it

[enigma51]

I am getting help from a good mate of mine who does alot of programming and is sorted by quite a few companies in CHCH. I wont tell you what I plan on learning because Im not going to jinx it
If you need any help just let me know i might be able to help or google it

[Sniper]

Thanks Enigma. I'll try google things first so I dont bother you with annoying things, but I'll PM you with anything harder

[Sniper]

For those who are curious, Im learning C and then moving onto VB.net. Seems pretty strait forward. Thanks for all the help guys. Wolf, you especially mate!!

[gamgee]

VB is a sack of shit, it encourages bad coding such incorrect ending of statements, and you should check out www.howstuffworks.com for really good tutorials on just about any language

[slob]

Java IS THE BEST LANGUAGE TO LEARN FROM SCRATCH...
..Next would be Delphi, its pascal with Object oriented features.


I learned Java at uni and thought it was the dog's until I started working and got into Delphi (i.e. Object Pascal). Delphi is a wonderful programming environment because it is very structured and extremely easy to read (a good programmer can make it almost read like regular english).

For learning I'd recommend Delphi, but you'd have to find a way of getting the Delphi IDE (Integrated Development Environment). Plus, Borland (creators of Delphi) have been in a bit of a slump since MS headhunted their best and brightest to work on their .Net project... Work-wise, Delphi's not the best language to pick up.

Java's got heaps of freebie IDEs out there, but it isn't as structured as Delphi, and hence you can end up becoming a sloppy coding due to it. Have the automatic garbage collection can be a real liability if you have to move over to a language that requires you to manage your memory usage. On the other hand, the syntax is quite similar to C and .Net, so the transition will be a bit easier.

C/C++ exposes you to even more danger of becoming really sloppy with your code, so beware!

I'd steer clear of web-programming until you get the fundamentals first, otherwise you might pick up bad habits again!

[Sniper]

I have a copy on Delphi on disk. Guys, I dont think you understand. Im not using VB. Im using the newer, VB.Net that microsoft now use.

[Bren_chch]

I am wanting to learn the basics of computer programming. I know my way around a computer quite well and I know a little bit about writing html. But could someone point me in the right direction on what language to use or some tutorials of programming please. Even if someone would be nice enough to maybe teach me a little :psst:

PHP/mysql is the way to go, i have loads of shit to confuse you... I can put it on CD for you, for Saturday.

[Sniper]

Thanks, so have you managed to get a new front tyre?

[Bren_chch]

yeah its sorted! :ride:

[Sniper]

Cool, so do you want to PM me with a place and time to meet ect

[Bren_chch]

yep... about 12.30, at mine.. i'll PM you the address!

[Sniper]

Thanks Bren

[parsley]

No, no, no, you have to start with machine code (in binary) then work your way up to assembler.

[sAsLEX]

No, no, no, you have to start with machine code (in binary) then work your way up to assembler.

no, to be true you must stay in assembly!

[Ixion]

COBOL crafted with vi. 'Tis the alpha and omega, the first and the last.

[Big Dave]

one day my employer will notice that they're essentially giving me money to do what I'd be doing anyway if I had enough free time.


*I've* worked out how to do it with motorcycles. :Punk:

[Sniper]

no, to be true you must stay in assembly!

If you mean writing minor code for hardware Ive done a tiny bit of that? :dodge:

[Pathos]

I've hacked a program or two. pretty hidious stuff.

[Sniper]

Well, VB.net doesnt seem that frightening. The bosses are trying to make me learn Delphi but I dont like the look of it :s

[Krayy]

..The bosses are trying to make me learn Delphi but I dont like the look of it
Cluey guys. Delphi is a great RAD tool for Windows (and Linux with Kylix) apps and an even better intro to event driven programming, where "events" like mouse clicks, keystrokes etc are processed as they occur, rather than procedural languages that work in a top down sequence. It shields you from all the nasty C and C++ set up code, creates pretty compact executables that run fast enough and has more 3rd party add-ons (and free at that) than you can poke a stick at. It's a helluva lot less confusing than VB, and since it uses Pascal as it's base language, and most Windows APIs use Pascal calling methods, it's fairly intuitive. The in-line help system with the Delphi IDE is fantastic too, as you dont have to trawl through heaps of docs to find a specific functions parameter list.

If you need some pointers getting started, I'd be glad to help.

[Sniper]

Thanks Krayy. I have a rather large book on Delphi Im going through right now

[deeknow]

God Almighty !!! I cant believe the volume of geekiness in this post, for a bike forum?
I also can't understand why noone has suggested Lisp !!!! (just joking)

[Sniper]

Smartarse.

[Wolf]

I also can't understand why noone has suggested Lisp !!!! (just joking)
Lithp, thurely...

[Wolf]

(Signature) If I own a peice of land, do I own it all the way down to the core of the earth?

IANAL but AFAIK: Nope. Only the top 30cms or so (Though you are held responsible for any damage tree roots might do to council pipes a few metres down)

Anyone can apply for a prospecting licence to look for, and exploit if found, any natural resources they might have reason to suspect is under "your" land and you are required by law to provide reasonable access.

[Ixion]

IANAL but AFAIK: Nope. Only the top 30cms or so (Though you are held responsible for any damage tree roots might do to council pipes a few metres down)

Anyone can apply for a prospecting licence to look for, and exploit if found, any natural resources they might have reason to suspect is under "your" land and you are required by law to provide reasonable access.

Six foot deep actually. Depth of a grave. Leastways that's what the mediaval rule was.

[Wolf]

Six foot deep actually. Depth of a grave. Leastways that's what the mediaval rule was.
My bad, must've confused feet with inches - we young metric types do that...

[parsley]

The proliferation of modern programming languages (all of which seem to have stolen countless features from one another) sometimes makes it difficult to remember what language you're currently using. This guide is offered as a public service to help programmers who find themselves in such dilemmas.

C
You shoot yourself in the foot.

C++
You accidentally create a dozen instances of yourself and shoot them all in the foot. Providing emergency medical assistance is impossible since you can't tell which are bitwise copies and which are just pointing at others and saying, "That's me, over there."

FORTRAN
You shoot yourself in each toe, iteratively, until you run out of toes, then you read in the next foot and repeat. If you run out of bullets, you continue anyway because you have no exception-handling ability.

Modula2
After realizing that you can't actually accomplish anything in this language, you shoot yourself in the head.

COBOL
Using a COLT 45 HANDGUN, AIM gun at LEG.FOOT, THEN place ARM.HAND.FINGER. on HANDGUN.TRIGGER and SQUEEZE. THEN return HANDGUN to HOLSTER. CHECK whether shoelace needs to be retied.

LISP
You shoot yourself in the appendage which holds the gun with which
you shoot yourself in the appendage which holds the gun with which
you shoot yourself in the appendage which holds the gun with which
you shoot yourself in the appendage which holds the gun with which
you shoot yourself in the appendage which holds ....

BASIC
Shoot yourself in the foot with a water pistol. On big systems, continue until entire lower body is waterlogged.

FORTH
Foot in yourself shoot.

APL
You shoot yourself in the foot, then spend all day figuring out how to do it in fewer characters.
[also...]
You hear a gunshot, and there's blood on the floor, but you don't remember enough linear algebra to figure out what happened.

Pascal
The compiler won't let you shoot yourself in the foot.

SNOBOL
If you succeed, shoot yourself in the left foot.
If you fail, shoot yourself in the right foot.

Concurrent Euclid
You shoot yourself in somebody else's foot.

HyperTalk
Put the first bullet of the gun into the foot of the left leg of you. Answer the result.

Motif
You spend days writing a UIL description of your foot, the trajectory, the bullet, and the intricate scrollwork on the ivory handles of the gun. When you finally get around to pulling the trigger, the gun jams.

Unix
% ls
foot.c foot.h foot.o toe.c toe.o
% rm * .o
rm: .o: No such file or directory
% ls
%

Paradox
Not only can you shoot yourself in the foot, your users can too.

Revelation
You'll be able to shoot yourself in the foot just as soon as you figure out what all these bullets are for.

Visual Basic
You'll shoot yourself in the foot, but you'll have so much fun doing it that you won't care.

Prolog
You tell your program you want to be shot in the foot. The program figures out how to do it, but the syntax doesn't allow it to explain.

370 JCL
You send your foot down to MIS with a 4000-page document explaining how you want it to be shot. Three years later, your foot comes back deep-fried.

Ada
After correctly packaging your foot, you attempt to concurrently load the gun, pull the trigger, scream and shoot yourself in the foot. When you try, however, you discover that your foot is of the wrong type.

Assembly
You try to shoot yourself in the foot only to discover you must first reinvent the gun, the bullet, and your foot.

Perl
while($_ = ){
for($i = 0; $i < $#toes; $i++){
s/[ \t]*($toes[$i])/blood/g;}}

Tcl/Tk
You write 10,000 lines of c code to shoot yourself in the foot, then write a nice interface so other people can shoot themselves in the foot in exactly the same way with less trouble.

[Ghost Lemur]

Brilliant parsley. :rofl: :clap:

One thing I've yet to see mentioned is "just do it".

Do you use any FOSS? Mozilla? OOo? etc? If so, then start using their latest CSV release and find bugs, submit bug reports, as you start to get into the swing of things you can then progress to bug fixing.

As for the language wh0ring. Meh

I'm of the opinion that every language (and development methodology for that matter) has it's pros and cons. It's just a matter of choosing the right language for the right problem. Learning how to program is about a lot more than knowing a particular language (being able to speak english does not make one a linguist).
Having said that I do think going with a language where you have to do it all yourself (ie C) over one which takes care of things for you (ie Java with it's garbage collection) is better when starting out. Read an article via /. last year which pointed out a lot of Universities in the states were going back to teaching Assembly to their CS students for exactly the same reason.

Look at it this way. Take some one who learnt to install hardware back in the "good ol days" of having to assign IRQ's and manually install drivers. Then take someone younger who has learnt how to install hardware via the windows wizard. Both are completely capable of installing hardware when it all goes well. But when something goes wrong the person with the more indepth understanding and knowledge has a much better chance of solving the problem. Same difference between those who learnt computers with CLI's (like dos or *nix) and those who have learnt computers via GUI's.

Are you looking to get into the industry? If you manage it before I do hook a brother up.

Getting quite disolutioned about the whole thing. Keep hearing about how there's a massive shortage and employers are screaming out for staff. But they all seem to only want people with the 2-5yrs+ experience. How the hell is one supposed to get the experience when no one takes on someone with only qualifications. Hell I'd love to do a degree parttime sometime in the future but no way am I making that sort of commitment until I'm in the industry and therefore assured of its usefullness. /rant

[Sniper]

See what I mean with people not wanting to hire newbies

[Wolf]

Look at it this way. Take some one who learnt to install hardware back in the "good ol days" of having to assign IRQ's and manually install drivers. Then take someone younger who has learnt how to install hardware via the windows wizard. Both are completely capable of installing hardware when it all goes well. But when something goes wrong the person with the more indepth understanding and knowledge has a much better chance of solving the problem. Same difference between those who learnt computers with CLI's (like dos or *nix) and those who have learnt computers via GUI's.
I started as a programmer in Pascal, taught myself other languages, was shifted to technical work and Network admin when they no longer needed an in-house programmer - back in the CLI and hardware interrupts days.

I've worked with those of the never-used-anything-but-the-Add-Hardware-wizard type and of the "What's a DOS prompt?" variety and they started to go to pieces when the hardware did not perform as expected - didn't know what to do. They also had no idea of how I got all sorts of info out of the machines - like detailed directory structures for the whole system.

Not all of them are like that - some have studied Arcana even if they haven't used it and had an idea of where to look.

I still use DOS for some tasks in my work - usually to get information in a manipulatable form (text file) rather than just a pile of vaguely informative eye candy.

[yoggo]

That's just how it works. Finding those companies is left as an exercise for the reader.

Or PM me - we're looking for a good grad or two in Christchurch at the moment, and might be nice to see a CV from someone who's in the same country as us.

[Sniper]

Im not a grad and I ave no plans to go to Uni. I have a good mentor and Im just teaching myself. Hopefully there might be a job for me sometime next year

[parsley]

Well gosh kids, here's a really great way to start programming in C and have fun at the same time!
http://www.c-jump.com/

[Sniper]

Hmmmm, must get that when I start C :bleh: