Linked Brakes

[The Stranger]

Looking for comments from those who have experience with them.
Which bikes have you tried with linked brakes and are they good, bad or ugly?

[sir.pratt]

Google any report/write-up on the blackbird/vfr800 combo, and you'll find all you need to know.

[Big Dave]

Looking for comments from those whom have experience with them.
Which bikes have you tried with linked brakes and are they good, bad or ugly?

Have ridden several BMWs and a Guzzi with the system.

The back brake fluid boiled on the BM650 half way through an adventure ride and was lost for the day - is the worst thing I can say.

On the others it was not at all noticable but I don't like the concept - is the best.

Taking AMPS 'ABS' Sprint ST for a burn next week - that strikes me as another superfluous item on a bike too, next week will tell.

[froggyfrenchman]

have ridden a latemodel bmw, takes a lil gettn used to, especially if you need to brake in corners... eg usin front to come in and back to go wide no longer works. as best i can tell its a great plan. The beemer had 60/40 split combined with abs, made for good stopping and control. what are you lookn at exactly?

[Sniper]

He rides a blackbird FFM. I take thats why you ask CaN?

[Lou Girardin]

Have ridden several BMWs and a Guzzi with the system.

The back brake fluid boiled on the BM650 half way through an adventure ride and was lost for the day - is the worst thing I can say.

On the others it was not at all noticable but I don't like the concept - is the best.

Taking AMPS 'ABS' Sprint ST for a burn next week - that strikes me as another superfluous item on a bike too, next week will tell.

Ask Ixion how superfluous ABS is.

[vifferman]

I've ridden four VFRs with it on, with the best being the VTEc model, as the DCBS is more subtle and better balanced on that.
When I first got my VFR800 I found it a bit weird, as I was used to using the rear brake on the VTR as a rudder when riding slowly in traffic. It took me a couple of weeks to get used to the back brake operating the front disks as well. Now I love it, as there is a lot less dive when braking into a corner - the bike sort of squats down, with a little dive but not a lot, so the steering is still quickened up. The other advantage is that you can stamp on the rear brake pedal and it actually slows the bike down quite a bit, courtesy of the pedal operating two pistons in the rear caliper and one in each front caliper. So on wet or greasy roads, it's almost as good as ABS for slowing down without locking up the front wheel.

The big disadvantage of it is the complexity of the system, and the weight of extra components (proportioning valve, lines, mechanism on front left caliper, extra pistons). To bleed the brakes, you have to bleed each front caliper, then tie the left front arm forward to operate the valve to the rear caliper, then the rear caliper needs to be removed and turned upside down (unless a vacuum-operated bleeding system is used) as the bleed nipple is on the bottom of the caliper. Then there is a proportioning valve under the seat to bleed as well, and I think one bleeder somewhere else.

It's quite common for people to disable the DCBS system so that the rear pedal operates only the rear (and the centre piston is inoperative), and to connect the front two calipers so that all six pistons are operated by the front lever, but I don't think I'll bother, as I like the system now I'm used to it.

[The Stranger]

I got a Blackbird which has linked brakes. I believe the theory is that If you apply the front brake 10% of the force goes to the back and if you apply the rear 10% of the force goes to the front, how they work out the "force" I don't know.
I see a lot of complaints about them, but I like it, tend to be a bit sloppy and favour the front brake (more than usual), but they do stop you well.
Most of the complaints seem to centre around the ability to trail brake and some go the extent of unlinking them.
Again I find that trail braking is still effective even though x amount of the force goes to the front.
Was just wondering what the experience of others was and if the linked system is just used as an excuse any time someone screws up.

[vifferman]

I think you're less likely to cock up with the linked brakes. The thing I forget to do is use both brakes when braking hard; if you don't hit the rear brakes you miss out on some extra braking force.


I find the back brake a bit stiff and wooden, but I dunno if that's because it was bent when I got it and still isn't quite right, or if it needs servicing, or they're all like that (it's been a while since I rode another VFR). In any case, it's heaps better than the VTR's rear brake, which was almost useless, and if I used much pressure on it, it would lock up with very little provocation.

I can't see it's a big deal - cars have had linked brakes for years.

[Motu]

Spent a bit of time on an S3 Guzzi in OZ with linked brakes,I hated the idea,but in practice it worked very well,specially in the wet - you could hit the rear brake as hard as you liked and the thing just stopped,but too much of a brain shift for me to only use the rear brake.I only got to ride it in real corners for a day in the Dandenongs,but my riding style with a V twin means brakes are just an adjustment on corner entry,it was wasted on me,I can't see the need.

[Biff]

I love the linked brakes on my Bird. In fact I don't really feel comfortable riding bikes without them now.

Pulling the front brake on engages both pots at the front and one at the rear, engaging the rear brake puts both pots on the rear and one at the front.

'Proper' sports bike riders don't tend to like then, but I love them. They instill confidence, allow you to brake later and harder, and you can (apparently) brake mid corner and the bike won't stand up as much. Although I strongly advise to avoid braking mid corner, unless you're suddenly faced with a stationary vehicle, large bovine, or Helen Clark's make up shed.

[Skyryder]

The Drakes linked. Both brakes are operated via the foot pedal and as such I do not use them a great deal. Tend to brake with only the front brake prior to leaning the bike into the bend along with revs.

I don't have a problem using linked brakes mid corner but this is only if I need to readjust my speed.

The great thing about linked brakes is that if you realy have to stop in a hurry you can do so without having to be conscious of independant pressure of front and rear brakes.

Skyryder

[Blackbird]

I'm with Biff - took a little getting used to but wouldn't be without them now. :Punk: You can still trail on the rear brake a wee bit if you overcook a corner and want to settle it down, but it's not the same as independent brakes of course. I belong to www.superblackbird.co.uk/ and this topic has come up now and then. You can buy a de-linking kit but very few people have bothered as far as I know. Join the site and ask if you need more opinions!

I did an advanced riding course a couple of years ago and the final part of the course covered learning how to brake from high speed like your life depended on it (because it will one day)! To be brutally honest, I was terrified about doing this part of the course as I had visions of going over the bars or losing the front end and following the 'bird down the road on my arse. Neither of these things happened. Despite braking with such force that my wrist joints and elbows were creaking and nuts getting smacked into the back of the tank, the 'bird repeatedly settled down dead straight and stable with no fuss at all. Couldn't wish for a better vote of confidence than that. I had no idea that a bike could brake that hard and I'd never have explored those limits had I not gone on the course.

Cheers

Geoff

[Hitcher]

And don't forget the Mighty ST1300. Linked brakes are wonderful. Fuck the "purists".

[Storm]

Dont be shy there Hitcher, tell us how you really feel :)

[Hitcher]

Q: WHAT DO YOU WANT?
M: Well, I was told outside that...
Q: Don't give me that, you snotty-faced heap of parrot droppings!
M: What?
Q: Shut your festering gob, you tit! Your type really makes me puke, you vacuous, coffee-nosed, maloderous, pervert!!!
M: Look, I CAME HERE FOR AN ARGUMENT, I'm not going to just stand...!!
Q: OH, oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse.
M: Oh, I see, well, that explains it.
Q: Ah yes, you want room 12A, Just along the corridor.
M: Oh, Thank you very much. Sorry.
Q: Not at all.
M: Thank You. (Under his breath) Stupid git!!

[Blackbird]

M. Python :Punk: :Punk:

Wonderful stuff :hbd:

[SPORK]

Your time's up!
No it isn't....
Yes it is! It was up 5 minutes ago!
That's peposterousous! (can't spell)

Got to love Monty Python! My cousin has the entire boxed set, it's wicked eh, wicked.

Your wife, is she a goer? Eh? Does she go? Eh? knowhaddimean knowhaddimean?

[Big Dave]

And don't forget the Mighty ST1300. Linked brakes are wonderful. Fuck the "purists".

So were they linked on this ST1100 I hired in Oz?
Purist that i am I didn't notice.

(I still prefer total control.)

[Hammer]

No issues with them on the birdl. Honda seems to have done a good job on them. Just takes a bit of getting used to. I am happy to stay with them as long as I have the bird.

[vifferman]

you can (apparently) brake mid corner and the bike won't stand up as much.
Yup.
Mind you, I used to brake in the corners on my last few bikes anyway. How much it stands up depends on steering geometry and tyre profile, but the linked brakes don't cause much weight transfer, so that helps.
Practising braking in the corners is a good idea so you get a feel for what the bike does.

(I still prefer total control.)
It is total control. You still have control over retarding your speed, and you still have control over whether you are braking mostly with the front, or mostly with the rear. There is less attitude control, in that you are less able to make the front forks dive, but you are still able to settle the bike before a corner by using the brakes (either lever), but it's not necessary to do so.

The only situation where the linked brakes could be a liability is on slippery surfaces where you are going slowly and carefully and don't want to lose the front end. But then the amount of force applied to the fron disks if you brake gently with the rear should prevent that happening anyway.

[Hitcher]

So were they linked on this ST1100 I hired in Oz?
Purist that i am I didn't notice.

(I still prefer total control.)
I don't think that the ST1100 has linked brakes. But I am sure that if I am wrong on this, some purist will correct me.

Has Subaru got you on commission? Apologies to The Motels...

[Big Dave]

Hmmm - I know what it is - not purist - minimalist.

My favourite bike is still my Thunderbird and it doesn't even have a fuel guage. No bodywork, no 'features' - just motorcycle. 2 instruments and a neutral light. That's also why I like Bonnevilles and Thruxtons and Z1000's and Wide Glides - just motorcycle. Cool.

No nerdy techno babble or adjust on the move suspension settings and screens and linked brakes will i countenance till I'm at least retiring age.

[Big Dave]

Has Subaru got you on commission? Apologies to The Motels...

Don't tell me the time.

[enigma51]

Tried a vfr with linked thing and freaked me out I take it you can get use to it but did not feel right for me. There is a guy at work who has a vfr and he says he likes the brakes being linked so I take it is a question of trying it and see if you like it.

[The Stranger]

Ok so that is not just my imagination.
I had fealt that there was less nose dive when you hit the picks with the linked brakes.
I generally try to achieve smooth transitions and appreciate this characteristic of the Blackbird.

[SARGE]

Ask Ixion how superfluous ABS is.


me too... ABS on a bike is a waste of weight

[PhoeniXX]

Linked Brakes...Love em.
Brought my Blackbird a month ago...first week i hated those damn brakes but once you get use to them you will not want to be with out them.
Check out this site http://www.superblackbird.info/ lots of talk in the fourm about the brakes.

[vifferman]

Tried a vfr with linked thing and freaked me out I take it you can get use to it but did not feel right for me. There is a guy at work who has a vfr and he says he likes the brakes being linked so I take it is a question of trying it and see if you like it.
Yes, indeed.
Going from the VTR1000 with an almost useless back brake, and reasonable front brakes (new pads, braided lines) to the VFR, I did, as I said, find the first week or so a bit weird. But after that, when you see how it affects the attitude of the bike, and feel the extra bite when you brake hard with the front lever AND the brake pedal, you do appreciate the way they work. I suspect that people who disable the linked brakes are probably unable to adapt to different things very well.

[Biff]

I don't think that the ST1100 has linked brakes.

I don't believe the ST1100 has linked brakes as standard, but have been available, as an option, since '86.

The ST1300 (known as the Pan European in parts of the world) does have them as standard I believe.

[Hitcher]

I don't believe the ST1100 has linked brakes as standard, but have been available, as an option, since '86.

The ST1300 (known as the Pan European in parts of the world) does have them as standard I believe.
Yea, verily and forsooth. As I may have mentioned earlier...

[Paul in NZ]

My favourite bike is still my Thunderbird and it doesn't even have a fuel guage.

Jeeze imagine that - no fuel guage? (wots a guage?) Far out. Frankly I'm still impressed by electic starting but then again I'm a stupid old Luddite.

Fer goodness sake - I've stayed out of this as long as I can... Guzzi have been panned in the press for years for having 'stupid' linked brakes... On my dear old lemon it's achieved by having a splitter for the foot master cylinder and a 'less' grippy compound on the linked front disk. Sounds daft but in practise it works a treat. It is awesome in the wet and if you over do a bend you can trail the foot brake without standing the bike up.

Haul on both brakes and it's still as good as anything of the era!

It's as simple as dirt, it works, it's cheap and require no clever clogs electrical gubbinses. PERFECT!

Paul N

[Zed]

Couldn't wish for a better vote of confidence than that. I had no idea that a bike could brake that hard and I'd never have explored those limits had I not gone on the course.I found the same fantastic response from the linked brakes on my Blackbird at the Pukekohe race track a couple of weeks ago. Braking at the end of the back straight suddenly within 200m from speeds up around 260kmph was very pleasing and well balanced - couldn't fault them.

I love the braking system on my bike, it will be weird reverting back to non-linked brakes if/when I change my ride.

CaN, hopefully by now you'll have formed a positive opinion about these brakes, especially with all the weekend riding you've been doing lately! :Punk:

[Big Dave]

Jeeze imagine that - no fuel guage? (wots a guage?)

Paul N

My contribution to the lexicon.

[Kickaha]

Fer goodness sake - I've stayed out of this as long as I can... Guzzi have been panned in the press for years for having 'stupid' linked brakes... On my dear old lemon it's achieved by having a splitter for the foot master cylinder and a 'less' grippy compound on the linked front disk. Sounds daft but in practise it works a treat. It is awesome in the wet and if you over do a bend you can trail the foot brake without standing the bike up.

Haul on both brakes and it's still as good as anything of the era!

It's as simple as dirt, it works, it's cheap and require no clever clogs electrical gubbinses. PERFECT!

Paul N

Only ever ridden one Moto Guzzi and I thought the system was awesome, I ended up only using the footpedal as it was so good

[Ixion]

Jeeze imagine that - no fuel guage? (wots a guage?) Far out. Frankly I'm still impressed by electic starting but then again I'm a stupid old Luddite.

..

Humph. I'm not :nono: Bring back the trusty kickstart I say.

EDIT.And who on earth needs fuel gauge? If you want stuff like that get a cage.

[Skyryder]

Humph. I'm not :nono: Bring back the trusty kickstart I say.


Trusty kickstart you say?? Another oxymoron that is parralel with the CIA.


Skyryder