Tightening the line?

[The Little Gixxer]

Ok so i was plodding along the other day and as I came around the corner it seemed I had mischosen my line leaving me coming out wide and entering the left hand lane. Maybe it was a lack of concentration on my part but also the fact I haven't been riding long has a bit to pay.

So my question is what is the best way to tighten the line:

Is it to anchor up let the bike slide for a while and accelrate (hopefully) out of it?

Is it to apply the rear brake as a slowing mechanism whilst still maintaining forward momentum?

Should i just peg to the ground and let the sparks fly?

Just some pointers would be good, this has been part covered in so many threads it is hard to put all the knowledge in one place.

Thanks

[skippa1]

Is it to anchor up let the bike slide for a while and accelrate (hopefully) out of it?

^^^^this is the best learners method. Don't forget to put your foot on the road for stability

[The Little Gixxer]

Yeah it might not be the safest but will give the most thrills.

Essentially what I did was slow using the rear brake then lean into the corner further. Is this what should be done?

[SPman]

If you're not scraping anything, you've got more lean angle left, turn in/lean more, balance with more throttle and ignore all the "I'm gonna die" survival instincts screaming in your brain.

[FJRider]

Ok so i was plodding along the other day and as I came around the corner it seemed I had mischosen my line leaving me coming out wide and entering the left hand lane. Maybe it was a lack of concentration on my part but also the fact I haven't been riding long has a bit to pay.



Plodding along ... at what speed ... ?? A two lane road and you still got it wrong ...


So you got it wrong and didn't hit anything ... this time. Next time you may not be as lucky.


Slow down and get your lines sorted first. THEN entry / exit speeds sorted. Braking with the rear wheel (only) is likely to lock up the rear tyre. After that ... life can get bad.

Quickly.

[Katman]

Why are we handing out licenses so easily?

[oneofsix]

Why are we handing out licenses so easily?

or why do we teach them sooooo little in the basic handling course. Sure they know how not to drop the bike in a car when riding slowly in first gear but no idea how to judge their line and speed on corners - wonder where they are likely to meet a ton or so coming in the opposite direction? :wacko:

Read up on vanishing points and judge your speed right.

Light rear braking will slow you without washing out like the front. Locking the front gets really exciting and even braking on it straightens up your line sooo much.

Main thing is look where you want to go NOT where you think you are going or where you are trying to avoid. If you look where you want to go you will automatically make the required adjustments and the bike will auto-magically head that way, scraping what it needs to bet you were no where near the maximum lean angle - the bike will out perform you so use it, you can change your undies when you get home.

[The Little Gixxer]

Good advice. Thankyou.

I wasn't going too fast only just on 90 prior to going through corner (don't really check the speedo whilst trying to corner) it looked like a sweeper and for most of the corner it was til it started to L out towards the end. Momentary loss of concentration was the main problem I needed to focus on what was ahead and as stated above look where I was going not start stressing over where I have been.

The learners basic handling course is just that. BASIC. Few turns at low speed teach you how to steer not how to lean and really on the road picking the line and knowing how to control it is way more important than being able to stop at 5km an hour.

Yeah i do use light braking just enough to keep it in control, had it slide a little once when I first got the bike but that I think was because I pulled the clutch at the same time.

Thanks everyone.

PS Yes I have hit something before when I was young and that wasn't pretty...

[Drew]

Why are we handing out licenses so easily?I have been asking for years.

Once you noticed you were running wide, you probably started looking that way.

There is no way to know what the best answer is for each time it might happen, the only constant is that you look where you want to go and it'll most likely happen. The odd time ya go down, was gonna happen anyway and we'll all give you arseholes for having gone into a turn so bloody much too fast.

This is basic stuff, and you should know it by heart before riding. Not your fault you don't, you're just the latest example to use.

[skippa1]

I have been asking for years.

Once you noticed you were running wide, you probably started looking that way.

There is no way to know what the best answer is for each time it might happen, the only constant is that you look where you want to go and it'll most likely happen. The odd time ya go down, was gonna happen anyway and we'll all give you arseholes for having gone into a turn so bloody much too fast.

This is basic stuff, and you should know it by heart before riding. Not your fault you don't, you're just the latest example to use.

Gotta stamp your foot down......fixes everything

[FJRider]

Good advice. Thankyou.

I wasn't going too fast only just on 90 prior to going through corner (don't really check the speedo whilst trying to corner)

Was there a speed advisory on that corner ... ???

Under the posted speed isn't automatically making it a safe speed on a corner .... especially for a learner rider.

Experienced riders don't need to check their speed as often as the noob's need to ...

[FJRider]

Why are we handing out licenses so easily?

To justify the existence of ACC ... and the number of industries it helps fund ... and increases/guarantees future employment in the public health system ... :brick:

[skippa1]

Foot down......that's all

[The Little Gixxer]

No speed advisory for the corner just a standard one with arrows. I think you are right though I still haven't quite got the hang of look where you want to go. Will just keep working on it and hopefully not bail out too quickly. I wish I did know this by heart already have wanted to do Prorider etc but a Bay of Plenty rider so nothing like that I have found.

If anything training wise pops up that is in that price bracket would be good though, might just have to cruise to Auckland for the day after all.

Thanks

[Tazz]

Lean more ;)

I'm still learning, too and although you might feel like you're close to the ground, you ain't, so just counter steer or lean more into the corner. If you notice you're coming in to hot a bit in advance you can usually grab a quick pulse of front brake while you slam it down a gear and counter steer into a decent lean to bumble around as well ;) Make sure you blip the throttle if needed, but you're probably not up to coming in that fast yet anyway.

I haven't come to any grief or 'slides' from doing so, but I wouldn't be touching the rear over the front brake in a corner, but that comment comes with an expectation of common sense as well :laugh:

Find a some sharp slowish speed corners to practice on, without taking the piss it sounds like you'd benefit from it to learn how to handle the bike. Something with a massive drop off to the side is good motivation not to fawk it up too (although very un PC advice :yawn:)

[Grashopper]

http://www.prorider.co.nz/motorcycle-training-courses.php?course=31

Neither South Auckland or Hamilton are far away from Tauranga.

Also look up ART days at Hampton Downs racetrack: http://www.amcc.org.nz/index.php/menu-ridertraining/news/100-new-seasons-art-days.html

[Tazz]

http://www.prorider.co.nz/motorcycle-training-courses.php?course=31

Neither South Auckland or Hamilton are far away from Tauranga.

Also look up ART days at Hampton Downs racetrack: http://www.amcc.org.nz/index.php/menu-ridertraining/news/100-new-seasons-art-days.html

Yes do this. Actually ignore everything you read on here but this :laugh: Do some training before you hurt yourself or someone else :msn-wink:

[GTRMAN]

There are ride forever courses run in Tauranga, get yourself along to a bronze level course. Learn your skills from a professional instructor

[ducatilover]

Ride like a vagina, not a penis. Never get stiff on the bike, stay loose.

And get wet.

[AllanB]

Ride like a vagina, not a penis.

But then, once a month he will become grumpy and aggressive on the road and get into more trouble.

[SNF]

Counter-steer (push on the bars) And add a bit more throttle, not heaps and maybe a slight dab of rear brake. If you panic, stop accelerating and use the front brake the bike will stand up and run ride. Sounds like you're out riding your ability. The worst thing you can do is go charging in, panic and give into reactions.

I am by no means a fast rider. I focus on being smooth, braking and gear changes done before entry. Better than I was, I can still improve though. The speed will come as you get used to it. +1 on all the people who suggest courses, I have done a few and they cover everything, where to be, how to approach, where to look etc, especially the ride forever bronze

[The Little Gixxer]

Ok so me being me I brought a bigger bike which now looks like it should sit for a bit before I start riding it. Will look into the courses and possibly do one next time I head to Auckland, Still unsure of riding that far is all. But will see what we can do. Maybe if there is a group of interested people from Tauranga we could go together or get them to come closer?

Thanks all. Your help much appreciated.

[Mushu]

Ok so me being me I brought a bigger bike which now looks like it should sit for a bit before I start riding it. Will look into the courses and possibly do one next time I head to Auckland, Still unsure of riding that far is all. But will see what we can do. Maybe if there is a group of interested people from Tauranga we could go together or get them to come closer?

Thanks all. Your help much appreciated.

I saw in your other thread that the new bike you bought is a Gixxer thou. Judging by the topic of this thread you aren't even close to having the ability to ride a thou, I'm guessing you don't have the appropriate license either.

At this point you're well on your way to becoming a statistic. Be careful out out there.

My advice is don't even think about jumping on the new bike until you watch twist of the wrist 2, have done at least a couple of courses and maybe got some track time under your belt.

[Mo NZ]

ykes a gs1000.

First off Ya cant fang that bike everywhere.
Sure its real fast, will corner like haunted snot and is a great bike, but ya gota learn to ride it. Learn some road skills.

Skills include looking 10 seconds ahead: whats happening up there?, relaxing, looking at your exit, maybe moving your chin over your inside hand, maybee push down on the inside peg, how quickly can I stop this puppy etc.

Go to a track day / skills course and do some laps .

[The Little Gixxer]

I have time up my sleeve as it is coming from Japan. Also I have the license for it but got bike licence when I was 16 (20 years ago) and didn't ride much after that so effectively my 125 I had then hasn't prepared me for anything close to riding 20 years later.

Think I will set myself a limit of doing the Silver Prorider course and give myself another 6-9 months of daily riding before I fire the new bike up. This way I will have some skills needed at least to start easy on it. That seems to be the best option. Also have to wait for paperwork and registration/vin etc for the bike anyway. But too good a deal to pass up.

Found I nice stretch of road today that has a few easy corners, wide berth and a tight one with straights either end so will practice on that, also in low traffic area as well.

Thanks again.

[Marmoot]

Push your inside shoulder in more; do a Marquez.
Trust me. It would help turn the bike more.

[Drew]

If everyone who mentions counter steering who ever meets me, could mention that they are encouraging the active thought of doing it, that'd be grand. Just so I know to KICK YOU ON THE FUCKING NUTS!

Anyone who can ride a bike does it already. Thinking about it is as helpful as a cheesegrater when you're having a wank!

It does not make you sound like you know what you're talking about, it makes you sound like a tool. Fuck up and stop giving advice, you have failed.

If this didn't offend you for having mentioned it, pm me so I can get let you know what I really think.

[gammaguy]

Why are we handing out licenses so easily?




Repeat after me until sick

Compulsory rider training compulsory rider training compulsory.................. :sleep:

[skippa1]

If everyone who mentions counter steering who ever meets me, could mention that they are encouraging the active thought of doing it, that'd be grand. Just so I know to KICK YOU ON THE FUCKING NUTS!

Anyone who can ride a bike does it already. Thinking about it is as helpful as a cheesegrater when you're having a wank!

It does not make you sound like you know what you're talking about, it makes you sound like a tool. Fuck up and stop giving advice, you have failed.

If this didn't offend you for having mentioned it, pm me so I can get let you know what I really think.

Ahhaahahaha.....I like.......

foot down..they just need to put their foot down on the road for stability.....

[GTRMAN]

If everyone who mentions counter steering who ever meets me, could mention that they are encouraging the active thought of doing it, that'd be grand. Just so I know to KICK YOU ON THE FUCKING NUTS!

Anyone who can ride a bike does it already. Thinking about it is as helpful as a cheesegrater when you're having a wank!

It does not make you sound like you know what you're talking about, it makes you sound like a tool. Fuck up and stop giving advice, you have failed.

If this didn't offend you for having mentioned it, pm me so I can get let you know what I really think.

You off ya meds again Drew?

[Grashopper]

Repeat after me until sick

Compulsory rider training compulsory rider training compulsory.................. :sleep:

+1

Why isn't it compulsory? Same with driver training.

[AllanB]

Hmmmm interesting thread with interesting suggestions.

Newbie rider overcooking a corner at 90kms and suggesting sticking a foot down? I'd suggest he would probably rip off his sneaker or at least bend his foot back and fuck up more.

Counter steering - agree that if you are riding you are doing it Drew, but the advice with the theory is not without merit as it is something he can consciously try on the road and maybe next time he is overcooking the corner he will remember to give that bar a bit more of a push to get it around.

[skippa1]

Newbie rider overcooking a corner at 90kms and suggesting sticking a foot down? I'd suggest he would probably rip off his sneaker or at least bend his foot back and fuck up more.



Not if they are a quality sneaker.......

[AllanB]

Not if they are a quality sneaker.......

Steel toe and heel plates to make lots of sparks? We used to do that years back when young - fix steel plates to the bottom of our riding boots so they made lots of sparks when cruising thru town. Cops were not so keen .....

[Drew]

You off ya meds again Drew?Why, you looking for a kick in the nuts?



Counter steering - agree that if you are riding you are doing it Drew, but the advice with the theory is not without merit as it is something he can consciously try on the road and maybe next time he is overcooking the corner he will remember to give that bar a bit more of a push to get it around.Oh fuck right off.

It is what we do to turn a bike, it doesn't require a conscious effort to slow down what will be the first thing you do when trying to tighten up a line.

Look where ya wanna go, and if you're going to achieve it you will naturally load the inside bar and lean in further.

[Tazz]

If everyone who mentions counter steering who ever meets me, could mention that they are encouraging the active thought of doing it, that'd be grand. Just so I know to KICK YOU ON THE FUCKING NUTS!

Anyone who can ride a bike does it already. Thinking about it is as helpful as a cheesegrater when you're having a wank!

It does not make you sound like you know what you're talking about, it makes you sound like a tool. Fuck up and stop giving advice, you have failed.

If this didn't offend you for having mentioned it, pm me so I can get let you know what I really think.

:lol:

Didn't offend me but you can go off your rocker out of a PM if it makes you happy. It's what KB is all about ;)

So people who apparently can't ride/are new/want to improve on their basics shouldn't be told they need to do more than just try and shift some body weight around or grab a fist full of brakes? Awesome. What about putting a foot down? :lol:
Not going to pretend I know more than anyone on here but as a retarded know nothing noob myself it is lingo that is easy to understand (although I agree you're doing it without being told if you can ride out of the box, but some people don't pick things up as naturally or are going so slow trying to counter steer would put them off the road? :lol:)

[AllanB]

Look where ya wanna go, and if you're going to achieve it you will naturally load the inside bar and lean in further.

You mean counter steer ..... :rolleyes:

Nothing wrong with knowing why and how things work Drew - just like all those porn movies you watched, eventually you got to try out some of the moves.

[skippa1]

Steel toe and heel plates to make lots of sparks? We used to do that years back when young - fix steel plates to the bottom of our riding boots so they made lots of sparks when cruising thru town. Cops were not so keen .....

Or whacking the centre stand down on the old CB900 on the motorway at night

[AllanB]

Or whacking the centre stand down on the old CB900 on the motorway at night

Shit yeah - forgot about those (long gone on most bikes now) - many a fine spark was produced from the centre stand!

Out of interest titanium produces a blue/gold spark ......

[Katman]

Anyone who can ride a bike does it already. Thinking about it is as helpful as a cheesegrater when you're having a wank!


I think you're wrong Drew......again.

Actually knowing that the input you are putting on the bars (and how you're doing it) is what is determining what your bike does is vital to determining how you will react (and how quickly) in the event of an emergency.

I do not believe that everyone who is unconsciously counter-steering already is necessarily aware of what they are doing.

[Drew]

I think you're wrong Drew.

Actually knowing that the input you are putting on the bars (and how you're doing it) is what is determining what your bike does is vital to determining how you will react (and how quickly) in the event of an emergency.

I do not believe that everyone who is unconsciously counter-steering already is necessarily aware of what they are doing.And I counter still ,that they don't fucking need to.

It is such an automatic response, it doesn't need to be focussed on. It certainly doesn't need to be focussed on by noobs with no fucking clue about a million more important things.

Rider training is paramount to us not being killed or hurt repeatedly, not fucktards spouting about a technical sounding term that a fucken three year old can master in minutes without the foggiest clue of the word.

[AllanB]

If you read the OP Drew you will see that to push the bar than bit more and ride around was NOT a automatic response. Remember the rider is relatively new - posted up here asking what went wrong. Several things obviously but as you and most others have pointed out it was most likely corrected by a bit more rider input. It takes some experience and god forbid training or understanding of what is involved to push past that early 'farrrrkkkkkk' stage.

[Gremlin]

Drew, years of riding, it's easy to assume too much of a learner. It ain't automatic for learners fella. A lot of things ain't automatic.

OP, before you even consider jumping on the thou, consider that returning riders feature heavily in statistics, and you most likely can't comprehend just how fast it can move (ie, your brain won't be used to such rapid demands).

Get yourself on a course, get some mentoring/one-on-one tuition and get some skills before complicating with horsepower.

[PrincessBandit]

Lean more ;)





Push your inside shoulder in more;




Look where ya wanna go, and if you're going to achieve it you will naturally load the inside bar and lean in further.

Kiss the mirror.

[oneblackflag]

I personally found reading up on counter stearing and other riding skills that come naturally, and that I already did; made me much more aware of what was happening through rider input. This has saved my arse when I myself got into a situation such as the OP's.

[XP@]

As the others have said - get some instructor lead training, bronze silver and gold cost less than a new fairing panel.

Whilst you are waiting do some research, it helps to understand:
* delayed apex cornering (helps you choose where you exit the corner and stay away from oncoming)
* vanishing point (Helps you judge correct entry speed)
* target fixation (learn to make it work for you)

Read some books (not just one, there are different theories - make your own mind but don't rely too much on race techniques on the road)

[The Little Gixxer]

Thanks all. I think the main thing that phased me was how much you can lean. I was thinking through it the other day and think I cracked why it happened. I got close to the center line then looked at it. As has been stated where you look is where you go. Then I kind of came unstuck. Since then have been practicing pretty hard at checking the corner before entry (ie. loose gravel etc) and then looking where I want to go rather than watching the road right in front of me. This has had good results as it allows me the time and focus I need to progress.

Still need the pro training though so will do that. I found that Twist of the wrist series here http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/149777-For-the-new-riders-and-learners-A-twist-of-the-wrist-2 which was a good find. Still got lots to learn though.

I don't wear sneakers btw so foot down although being a problem, should leave it mostly intact. Haven't felt the need to put foot down yet except trying to turn around in my driveway.

My biggest problem is I am a speed freak. So have to try and figure that out. Did a lot of training for the car so I could drive fast so obviously need to do the same for the bike and head to track days to get it out of the system.

[The Little Gixxer]

Ok that link is broken but I found the Twist of the Wrist 2 full version on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vr-Wqs37Ug4

Should be good. Very common sense and easy to understand, just have to do it now.

[Gremlin]

What you have said works for me as I will do a 1 finger tap on the front brake which enables me to increase my lean angle giving me a tighter line.
A tap on the front brake will make the bike want to stand up, a tap on the rear will make the bike lean over more. Obviously we're talking taps and not handfuls as it gets bad from there...

[oneblackflag]

A tap on the front brake will make the bike want to stand up, a tap on the rear will make the bike lean over more. Obviously we're talking taps and not handfuls as it gets bad from there...

That was my understanding... Maybe she means before the lean over. Anyway at Cassina's speed I doubt you could do anything that would bin the bike.

[skippa1]

I don't wear sneakers btw so foot down although being a problem, should leave it mostly intact. Haven't felt the need to put foot down yet except trying to turn around in my driveway.

My biggest problem is I am a speed freak. So have to try and figure that out. Did a lot of training for the car so I could drive fast so obviously need to do the same for the bike and head to track days to get it out of the system.
Really......don't put your foot down...........and learn to recognise irony

[Katman]

.......and learn to recognise irony

I believe sarcasm is the word you're looking for.

[george formby]

I'm repeating myself... But. I started practising moto gymkhana to improve my riding. It has. Immensely.

Lookie here (http://youtu.be/jHtraK9dhO8)

Erm, these riders on youtube are the best in the world, it ain't that easy.

[XP@]

I would suggest you temper the twist of the wrist a little as it has a "track meets road" philosophy. much emphasis os placed on being quick. Quick will come but skill should be first.

Even in this video which is short and has a lot of good technique there are a couple of things missed - the intersection on the left was in the dead ground and he has left himself quite hard on the left and therefore in SMIDSY territory. Also he gets very close to the centre line, I try and give myself a bit more room to breath, it doesn't cost much speed but will add to safety and smoothness.

Where they mention "Cross Views" this is looking past the vanishing point for other clues as to where the road is going and what is on the road.


http://youtu.be/7B-7ruX9m1s

[XP@]

I'm repeating myself... But. I started practising moto gymkhana to improve my riding. It has. Immensely.

Lookie here (http://youtu.be/jHtraK9dhO8)

Erm, these riders on youtube are the best in the world, it ain't that easy.

Have you tried a timed GP8 course? If so what is your best time? I've done 34.8s on my Transalp, may bring this up in a different thread.

[george formby]

Have you tried a timed GP8 course? If so what is your best time? I've done 34.8s on my Transalp, may bring this up in a different thread.

Yup and your way ahead of me on the TDM. New thread good.:yes: Old thread dredge perhaps even better. I would but struggle with searchy function thing.

[SPman]

My biggest problem is I am a speed freak. So have to try and figure that out. Did a lot of training for the car so I could drive fast so obviously need to do the same for the bike and head to track days to get it out of the system.Learn proper riding techniques first - then speed will come easier than going for it and trying to learn by your mistakes (if you survive). Track days are good for learning about your bike - what it can do and what you can do, but, remember, road riding is a different kettle of fish to track riding and you need a different attitude and riding style - riding like a racer on the roadsall the time often leads to a shorter riding life.

[Katman]

In the debate over the roadcraft cornering training another poster picked the same fault.

Yep, and I'll still call it a faulty cornering technique even in this thread.

[SPman]

A tap on the front brake will make the bike want to stand up, a tap on the rear will make the bike lean over more. Obviously we're talking taps and not handfuls as it gets bad from there...A footful of rear brake will make the bike stand up as well - I've seen it happen - banana shaped 996 anyone....?

[bogan]

Anyone else think the thread title is perhaps a foreshadowing? tightening the line, like reeling them in, fishing, trolling if you will...

[XP@]

Maybe IAMs training is based on the road surface being ideal and in countries where a lot more money is spent on the roads too. I remember one IAMs supporter saying a guy fell off on one of of their training runs when he hit a patch of shingle maybe he would not have fallen had he not followed the IAMs way and kept his eye on the road as well as the instructor he was trying to keep up with.
By all accounts we have better roads than the UK at the moment - theirs have potholes the size of buses (ok so that's an exaggeration) but still it is where Roadcraft / IAM comes from. I think learning the IAM school is better than nothing but you do need to realise it is only one way (and a very popular one in NZ). Discussion for another thread me thinks.
You do have to be careful around training sessions as the new stuff you are learning can push out some of the stuff you have learned, if only temporarily.

[James Deuce]

Maybe IAMs training is based on the road surface being ideal and in countries where a lot more money is spent on the roads too. I remember one IAMs supporter saying a guy fell off on one of of their training runs when he hit a patch of shingle maybe he would not have fallen had he not followed the IAMs way and kept his eye on the road as well as the instructor he was trying to keep up with.

NZ's roads are far better than many other country's. I still don't see that you have a point. I still don't understand why you ride motorcycles or pilot other vehicles, you seem to get no pleasure from it other than telling people that traveling by motorcycle or any other vehicle is so pointlessly dangerous you can't possibly get anywhere.

You are talking a load of shit and for the last fucking time: IAMs is cat food, you ignorant fuckwit.

Just so we're completely clear on my position, I am in no way affiliated with IAM, or any other training organisation. I have reservations about most training methods.

In your case, the only training method I can recommend is a train pass.

[Metastable]

I'm sitting here thinking of how I can write a response so that I don't sound like an @$$ or a know-it-all.... but it might not work. :D

This is in no particular order of what is more important, because it is all important.... when I say YOU I don't mean anyone, it is said in a general context.

- Like some have mentioned, stay on the outside of the lane and delay corner entry until you know where the exit is.... control your speed depending on your vanishing points. Remember, you should always be able to come to a stop for the distance you can see..... (on the road, the track is different).

- If you accelerate, you widen your turn, if you reduce speed you tighten your corner, that is physics, there is no argument. Unless you brake your ass loose like a dirt tracker or Gary McCoy. That's the only way increasing throttle will tighten your line.... highside ally if you try that and you get it wrong. Speed reduction should be done 2 ways, either reducing throttle or increasing brake pressure. That is one way how you can tighten your line in a corner. Practice this, going at a slower pace add a touch of throttle, then reduce throttle... you will notice the bike increasing radius as you add throttle and decreasing radius as you reduce throttle.

- Braking in the corners..... when are we going to stop treating everyone like they are incompetent, and teach them skills that will save their butts when things have gone wrong? You hear, DON'T hit the front brakes. Well, if you are going into a corner too hot, brakes will slow you down and reduce your cornering radius. Not to mention, that when you are on the front brakes, there is more weight on the front tire (increasing front end grip) and keeping the forks somewhat compressed which tightens the geometry of the bike..... also making it corner better. My take on cornering - unless you are going slow enough to not need brakes, you should start braking in a straight line, start your corner, and keep on the brakes UNTIL -> YOU DON'T NEED THEM..... and you can get back on the throttle. You can let off the brakes once the bike has slowed down enough so that you are comfortable with the speed. There is no exact spot to stop braking.... once pucker factor is down to 0 (if you went in too hot) that's when you stop braking. Note: yes as you add lean angle, you need to reduce pressure on the brakes..... but you can keep on them. If you are on your brakes before you start leaning the bike, it won't really want to stand up. Keep on the brakes and you will make the corner. WHAT EVER YOU DO, DO NOT...... DO NOT, go railing towards a corner in a straight line heavy on the brakes and let go of the brakes just before tipping into the corner, if you are unsure about your speed. When you let go of the brakes, your front forks will unload and reduce the pressure on the front tire. This works against you but unsettling your bike, forks extend increasing trail (increasing corner radius), and reducing the amount of pressure to the front tire (it won't grip as well). Yes the pros lose the front all the time, BUT they are at MAX lean angle and still heavy on the brakes..... a guy riding on the street probably won't be doing either. Don't be scared to trail brake, it will save you, you should be doing it all the time because that is the safest way to corner a motorcycle, car, whatever. Anyone that tells you otherwise isn't teaching you how to ride a motorcycle properly.
(Side note on REAR BRAKES, yes in a straight line, you can add some rear brake before corner entry to settle the bike down a touch.... get off the rear once you have tipped in to keep things more simple .... keep on the front brake if you need to.)

- Get use to lean angles, if you aren't scraping you can go lower.


- It has been mentioned before, but a performance track riding school is the best money you can spend your $AFETY..... even if you don't want to do trackdays.

[skippa1]

I believe sarcasm is the word you're looking for.
In the form used, is better described as Socratic irony.

[Mushu]

Why has nobody jumped on this, you are wrong on almost all the important points.


I'm sitting here thinking of how I can write a response so that I don't sound like an @$$ or a know-it-all.... but it might not work. :D

This is in no particular order of what is more important, because it is all important.... when I say YOU I don't mean anyone, it is said in a general context.

- Like some have mentioned, stay on the outside of the lane and delay corner entry until you know where the exit is.... control your speed depending on your vanishing points. Remember, you should always be able to come to a stop for the distance you can see..... (on the road, the track is different).

I'll give you this one, you are right here but that's all just common sense


- If you accelerate, you widen your turn, if you reduce speed you tighten your corner, that is physics, there is no argument. Unless you brake your ass loose like a dirt tracker or Gary McCoy. That's the only way increasing throttle will tighten your line.... highside ally if you try that and you get it wrong. Speed reduction should be done 2 ways, either reducing throttle or increasing brake pressure. That is one way how you can tighten your line in a corner. Practice this, going at a slower pace add a touch of throttle, then reduce throttle... you will notice the bike increasing radius as you add throttle and decreasing radius as you reduce throttle.

Backing off the throttle or grabbing the front brake will cause the bike to go wide, only once you have slowed will this allow you to turn any tighter, but by this stage you have already left your chosen line and this can put you in even more trouble. You should be gently accelerating through every corner and the way you set up for the corner should allow you to do this. Backing off actually lowers the bike also, reducing how far you can lean before you scrape.


- Braking in the corners..... when are we going to stop treating everyone like they are incompetent, and teach them skills that will save their butts when things have gone wrong? You hear, DON'T hit the front brakes. Well, if you are going into a corner too hot, brakes will slow you down and reduce your cornering radius. Not to mention, that when you are on the front brakes, there is more weight on the front tire (increasing front end grip) and keeping the forks somewhat compressed which tightens the geometry of the bike..... also making it corner better. My take on cornering - unless you are going slow enough to not need brakes, you should start braking in a straight line, start your corner, and keep on the brakes UNTIL -> YOU DON'T NEED THEM..... and you can get back on the throttle. You can let off the brakes once the bike has slowed down enough so that you are comfortable with the speed. There is no exact spot to stop braking.... once pucker factor is down to 0 (if you went in too hot) that's when you stop braking. Note: yes as you add lean angle, you need to reduce pressure on the brakes..... but you can keep on them. If you are on your brakes before you start leaning the bike, it won't really want to stand up. Keep on the brakes and you will make the corner. WHAT EVER YOU DO, DO NOT...... DO NOT, go railing towards a corner in a straight line heavy on the brakes and let go of the brakes just before tipping into the corner, if you are unsure about your speed. When you let go of the brakes, your front forks will unload and reduce the pressure on the front tire. This works against you but unsettling your bike, forks extend increasing trail (increasing corner radius), and reducing the amount of pressure to the front tire (it won't grip as well). Yes the pros lose the front all the time, BUT they are at MAX lean angle and still heavy on the brakes..... a guy riding on the street probably won't be doing either. Don't be scared to trail brake, it will save you, you should be doing it all the time because that is the safest way to corner a motorcycle, car, whatever. Anyone that tells you otherwise isn't teaching you how to ride a motorcycle properly.
(Side note on REAR BRAKES, yes in a straight line, you can add some rear brake before corner entry to settle the bike down a touch.... get off the rear once you have tipped in to keep things more simple .... keep on the front brake if you need to.)

As I already said using the front brake doesn't reduce your cornering radius, it stands the bike up taking you off your line.

The front brakes actually reduce rear end grip and put you in danger of a slide as well as the fact this is all done in a panic meaning you are far more likely to grab too hard and wash out the front, and front brakes don't do anything useful to the geometry of the bike.

The best bet is to be going slightly slower than you feel you need to be before you go into a corner on the road (even more so as a learner), get off the brakes gradually (it can be done quickly but don't just let go of the lever) crack open the throttle and begin accelerating gently and smoothly (continue to accelerate throughout the corner) turn in by pushing the inside bar (more force will cause the bike to tip over quicker but too much will cause you to lose the front end, also the faster you are going the more force is necessary to tip the bike into a corner) at the same time as you turn in push weight down on the outside peg, this will allow you to recover if the rear end slides and is necessary for leverage on the bars at higher speeds (well over legal speed on the road though) the rear brakes may be used if necessary (or trailed into the corner when you have a bit more experience) but don't close the throttle, it does more harm than good.


- Get use to lean angles, if you aren't scraping you can go lower.

Agreed.


- It has been mentioned before, but a performance track riding school is the best money you can spend your $AFETY..... even if you don't want to do trackdays.

Agreed.

[Metastable]

Sorry Mushu, but we will have to agree to disagree.

For a given lean angle, if you reduce your speed, you tighten your line, if you increase your speed you widen your line. That is physics.... it works in a car too. (unless you steer with the rear).

Also, my post is geared towards someone going into a corner too hot. As far as keeping constant throttle through a corner and best road riding technique .... that's all good.... that's not what my post is in regards.

If someone is shooting wide, you need to steer more or hit the brakes or both.... that's the only way you are going to tighten your line. Anyone who thinks they can accelerate or keep constant throttle to make a corner where they are going too fast isn't doing what they can, to help themselves out.

Don't take my word for it, just look at what the racers do, they trail brake in almost every corner. When they botch a corner and go in too hot, they just hold their brakes even longer. it might screw up their lap time, but they often still make the corner..... sure they might lose the front, but race pace and too hot for a corner street pace are SOOOO different, we aren't talking apples to apples. If trailing the front on a motorcycle made it run wide, the racers would run wide on every corner.

[Tazz]

I sincerely hope everyone handing out advice here has actually ridden a motorcycle before, because it almost doesn't read like it :lol:

[george formby]

I sincerely hope everyone handing out advice here has actually ridden a motorcycle before, because it almost doesn't read like it :lol:

:laugh:KB wisdom. Love it.


Pay the money. Do the training. Practice what you learn. Repeat.

Practice in a safe environment. Empty car park or circuit.

Well established training organisations like the IAM base there courses on decades of knowledge & experience, not ignorant conjecture.

Aim to ride well, not quick. Quick is a result of riding well.

Safety first.

Enjoy!

As you were.

[The Little Gixxer]

So far some awesome advice and much of it I have been trying. It seems that a smooth response on the throttle gives me more control both coming in, going through and leaving the corner. This has been hard to achieve as I am still smoothing out the gear changes but taking it easy coming in and in some cases even too slow has helped.

As stated i can always speed up later.

I do find I tend to trail the rear brake more than the front, essentially I barely use the front brake which in itself could be a bad habit to get into but am working on that.

Finding my gear has been tough, sometimes I am dropping too low, sometimes too high to have the grunt to get through and have found changing gears half way through a corner isn't pleasant (along with hitting a running pukeko, but that's another story). I think maybe investing in a gear signal indicator would help but in the mean time will try and learn to hear the gear rev better.

I think the main pieces of advice so far that I can take from this thread are:

1: Get training. IAM's, Track days and Pro-Rider are all valid options so should be done.
2: Control. Yes it is all about leaning in, brakes, throttle etc but without control none of these matter.
3: Practice. Safely and properly learning good habits and techniques before attempting high speed shenanigans.

There is a lot more information in here but these for me seem to cover it most sincerely.

Thanks to all the contributors as it has set me on a much better pathway to riding safely.

[XP@]

Finding my gear has been tough, sometimes I am dropping too low, sometimes too high to have the grunt to get through and have found changing gears half way through a corner isn't pleasant (along with hitting a running pukeko, but that's another story). I think maybe investing in a gear signal indicator would help but in the mean time will try and learn to hear the gear rev better.
Keep practicing on gear changing you will get the feel quite quickly. One exercise you can do is find a clear straight road maintain 50 in about 3rd gear then change up to 4th and down to 2nd, back to 3rd all the time keeping to 50. You can play around with different speeds and gears (probably not 1st gear at 100 tough), eventually you will learn where you are.

[Mushu]

Sorry Mushu, but we will have to agree to disagree.

For a given lean angle, if you reduce your speed, you tighten your line, if you increase your speed you widen your line. That is physics.... it works in a car too. (unless you steer with the rear).

Also, my post is geared towards someone going into a corner too hot. As far as keeping constant throttle through a corner and best road riding technique .... that's all good.... that's not what my post is in regards.

If someone is shooting wide, you need to steer more or hit the brakes or both.... that's the only way you are going to tighten your line. Anyone who thinks they can accelerate or keep constant throttle to make a corner where they are going too fast isn't doing what they can, to help themselves out.

Don't take my word for it, just look at what the racers do, they trail brake in almost every corner. When they botch a corner and go in too hot, they just hold their brakes even longer. it might screw up their lap time, but they often still make the corner..... sure they might lose the front, but race pace and too hot for a corner street pace are SOOOO different, we aren't talking apples to apples. If trailing the front on a motorcycle made it run wide, the racers would run wide on every corner.

On a race track there is no penalty for running wide, ie no other lane with oncoming traffic, if a racer goes in too hot you are correct in that they brake longer but if you watch your race vids you'll see that they run wide and loose some acceleration coming out of a corner you do not have that luxury on the road. They also don't close the throttle and they have ABS and all kinds of other electronic wizardry available that aren't present on a GSXR250. Go back to post 48 in this thread, watch the video and see what Kieth Code has to say on the matter. I agree that physics dictates that if you go slower you can turn tighter but the methods available to you to slow down actually push the bike wide and you must agree if you panic and grab a handful of front brake (which isn't unlikely if you suddenly realize you are about to run wide) is likely to land you in a whole lot of trouble. If he practices the technique I attempt to describe (it's more of an automatic reaction I have to think quite hard to describe it) he will be more in control of the bike to begin with.


Keep practicing on gear changing you will get the feel quite quickly. One exercise you can do is find a clear straight road maintain 50 in about 3rd gear then change up to 4th and down to 2nd, back to 3rd all the time keeping to 50. You can play around with different speeds and gears (probably not 1st gear at 100 tough), eventually you will learn where you are.

Also I found it helpful to count what gear you are in in the beginning (I say it aloud to myself as I change gear), do it for as long as you feel you need to, I continue to do it even now as I get used to a new bike. It seems to help get used to which gears are good in different situations

[Berries]

One exercise you can do is find a clear straight road maintain 50 in about 3rd gear then change up to 4th and down to 2nd, back to 3rd all the time keeping to 50. You can play around with different speeds and gears (probably not 1st gear at 100 tough), eventually you will learn where you are.
Keep left though eh? Someone who knows what they are doing might want to get by.

[Drew]

No one else read the bit about only using the rear brake?:facepalm:

[Mo NZ]

When all said and done I think the best way to learn to ride a bike is in a paddock down a gravel road with a few holes and maybe a ditch on a small trailie, then with a modestly powered road bike on the road.

Anybody with little riding experience considering getting a R1 or even say an itibitty 675 Triumph etc or any bike capable of high performance should get some serious bike time behind them, years would be good.

I remember when those Kwaka 2 strokes came out when we were riding the Trumpies, BSA'S and the Nortons in the 70's. Guys died.

[The Little Gixxer]

Norton, my other bike though not going for now.

Yes I do try to count the gears but still a work in progress I suppose. Thanks for the advice on that.

Yeah I know I should get years but the offer was good so I took it. Don't think the price will be beaten on it for a few years yet.

[Metastable]

Mushu - if you grab your front brake mid corner, it might want to stand up your bike especially if you hamfist it a bit. If you are on your brakes before you turn in, it will tighten your turn and it will make your cornering safer since there is more weight on the front tire. Under front end braking, you will lose the front before you lose the rear..... but you really have to be pushing it to lose the front.

I'll share with you an interesting story. The last time I crashed at the track, I was on constant throttle.... on a corner and I lost the front. Now the reason why I crashed and hadn't all day long was because (this is my best explanation interpretation of what happened) just before the last session a huge gust of wind blew a ton of sand around. It collapsed my canopy and as a result I had to unhook my tire warmers.... I put them back on a few minutes before the start of my session and was the first one out. As I reached the apex of the first left hander which is a very long radius left.... the front just gave way... dirty track... tires not warm enough. Now there was no reason to be on the front brakes on this corner.... you never do, but it just goes to show you how little grip the front tire can have in a corner, when it isn't being weighted.

When you see racers going wide in a corner, that is usually because they screwed up their turn in or braking markers.... keep in mind they are pushing to the limit..... hence they run wide, botch their corner and yes kill their speed. On a street I agree that you don't have as much room to play with, but you aren't at race pace either (well at least for the sane street riding folks :D ), if you are on the brakes going into the corner (if unsure of your speed) and you stay on the brakes you will have a much better chance of making the corner. Granted, if you are unsure of your speed MID corner and are on the throttle and you want to engage your brakes... it becomes a bit more tricky..... it can still be done, but more tricky for sure. That's why I said, keep on the brakes until pucker factor = 0 and you can get off the brakes.

I guess I will sum it up this way.

When do you know when to stop braking? -> When you have reached a speed that you are comfortable with..... wherever that may be.... before entry, apex, after the apex etc.... it doesn't really matter.


Another example - see the picture attached? I blew the corner... my only choice was to keep on the brakes... I have very little lean angle left over with stock foot pegs. Keeping a constant throttle would have sent me to the weeds. I am doing a few wrong things, as mentioned my corner entry was all wrong, I blew my braking marker and my body positioning needs a lot of work on that pic... but the saving grace was staying on the front brakes until I got it turned.

IMO - newer riders (and sometimes older ones too) need to hear a different point of view.... I keep hearing this DON'T BRAKE doing into a corner and it is completely wrong.

Just another note, read The Pace... it is posted on this section on a sticky.... I agree with Nick and have met him in person and he will be the first one to tell you to trail brake into corners. There are two different things here. One..... the way someone should ride on the street is one thing.... what to do when things get a bit harry is another.

[Mushu]

Mushu - if you grab your front brake mid corner, it might want to stand up your bike especially if you hamfist it a bit. If you are on your brakes before you turn in, it will tighten your turn and it will make your cornering safer since there is more weight on the front tire. Under front end braking, you will lose the front before you lose the rear..... but you really have to be pushing it to lose the front.

I'll share with you an interesting story. The last time I crashed at the track, I was on constant throttle.... on a corner and I lost the front. Now the reason why I crashed and hadn't all day long was because (this is my best explanation interpretation of what happened) just before the last session a huge gust of wind blew a ton of sand around. It collapsed my canopy and as a result I had to unhook my tire warmers.... I put them back on a few minutes before the start of my session and was the first one out. As I reached the apex of the first left hander which is a very long radius left.... the front just gave way... dirty track... tires not warm enough. Now there was no reason to be on the front brakes on this corner.... you never do, but it just goes to show you how little grip the front tire can have in a corner, when it isn't being weighted.

When you see racers going wide in a corner, that is usually because they screwed up their turn in or braking markers.... keep in mind they are pushing to the limit..... hence they run wide, botch their corner and yes kill their speed. On a street I agree that you don't have as much room to play with, but you aren't at race pace either (well at least for the sane street riding folks :D ), if you are on the brakes going into the corner (if unsure of your speed) and you stay on the brakes you will have a much better chance of making the corner. Granted, if you are unsure of your speed MID corner and are on the throttle and you want to engage your brakes... it becomes a bit more tricky..... it can still be done, but more tricky for sure. That's why I said, keep on the brakes until pucker factor = 0 and you can get off the brakes.

I guess I will sum it up this way.

When do you know when to stop braking? -> When you have reached a speed that you are comfortable with..... wherever that may be.... before entry, apex, after the apex etc.... it doesn't really matter.


Another example - see the picture attached? I blew the corner... my only choice was to keep on the brakes... I have very little lean angle left over with stock foot pegs. Keeping a constant throttle would have sent me to the weeds. I am doing a few wrong things, as mentioned my corner entry was all wrong, I blew my braking marker and my body positioning needs a lot of work on that pic... but the saving grace was staying on the front brakes until I got it turned.

IMO - newer riders (and sometimes older ones too) need to hear a different point of view.... I keep hearing this DON'T BRAKE doing into a corner and it is completely wrong.

Just another note, read The Pace... it is posted on this section on a sticky.... I agree with Nick and have met him in person and he will be the first one to tell you to trail brake into corners. There are two different things here. One..... the way someone should ride on the street is one thing.... what to do when things get a bit harry is another.

Trail braking is very different in my opinion to braking mid corner and I will agree that trail braking does help the bike turn in.

Remember this thread is directed at a returning rider who is having trouble with what I consider to be the basics. What I am trying to put across is a method for ensuring he doesn't run wide in the first place, it would be better for him to just read Twist of the wrist 2 (the book is far better than the video and if he were local to me I would gladly loan him my copy) as the technique described by Keith Code is what I am trying to relay. He can try other things to go faster once he is confident he can make the bike go where he wants.

It is possible to brake into or during a corner but you must be 100% confident that you can control the braking pressure and be at the point where using the brake is a conscious decision not a fear response, and therefore in my opinion not something you should be teaching someone who is learning to ride. Even trail braking is something best learned through practice but you must know how to safely turn the bike first.

If you have a look on google images you should be able to find pics of GP riders actually turning with the front wheel in the air, front wheel grip is only required for braking and turning in, so if the op is taught to go in a bit slower and actually ride through the corner properly he can experiment with coming in faster and getting the most out of front end grip once he has the rest figured out, no point showing him how to get turned in as fast as possible if he can't use the proper technique to get through the corner.

[Metastable]

Twist of the Wrist II and the movie are very good for new riders.... for most riders actually. What you say about not wanting to get into trouble is true. When I ride on the street I ride like a pu$$y.... too many unknown variables. I agree with most of what Nick talks about when he wrote "The Pace" which is essentially what you are saying.

Having said all that, IMO trail braking is a key skill that can save a rider. At the point where a rider is at PUCKER FACTOR HIGH... what he should have been doing doesn't matter until he can make the next corner. Knowing how to trail brake is an absolute must have skill and it gets a bad rap. Every rider should be comfortable trail braking. Just like every rider should practice emergency braking from whatever top speed they ride at. Learning how to emergency brake from 150kph when one has never tried it before is asking for trouble. Same goes for trail braking. If someone isn't familiar with it, the chances of things going wrong when the rider most needs those skills will be high.

As for engaging the brakes mid corner.... well, it should never get to that point if a rider is trail braking to begin with.

[Mushu]

Poster 1 has stated his main problem at the moment is with gear shifting down and up again when cornering
and I would suggest he concentrates on that before getting too worried about braking because if he approaches a bend in a too higher gear he could come to grief as he would need so much more braking than if he had changed down gear on the approach in preparation. The posted speed on corners should be taken notice of rather any instruction on how the racers do it with their front wheel in the air. At all times concentration has to be on the road and other motorists, over remembering a cornering "check list" read about in a book. When he comes on this MB and says he now feels confident with changing gears and braking without freaking out he will then be at a level to explore faster and more technical cornering like many on this MB promote but he may just be content to stay safe at the level he has reached too.

Actually if you go back and re-read post #1 this thread is about the bike coming off its intended line due to the op not knowing how to steer it properly, in later posts he gives evidence he wasn't going to fast for the corner, he wasn't speeding and there was no posted speed for that corner, he just couldn't maintain his line. Obviously you have not read the book or watched the video. There are good tips in there for every rider, every bike and every corner. On the subject of how to select the correct gear, my advice was (a few posts back) just to count the gears aloud to himself, the knowledge of the correct gear for each corner can only really come with practice.


Twist of the Wrist II and the movie are very good for new riders.... for most riders actually. What you say about not wanting to get into trouble is true. When I ride on the street I ride like a pu$$y.... too many unknown variables. I agree with most of what Nick talks about when he wrote "The Pace" which is essentially what you are saying.

Having said all that, IMO trail braking is a key skill that can save a rider. At the point where a rider is at PUCKER FACTOR HIGH... what he should have been doing doesn't matter until he can make the next corner. Knowing how to trail brake is an absolute must have skill and it gets a bad wrap. Every rider should be comfortable trail braking. Just like every rider should practice emergency braking from whatever top speed they ride at. Learning how to emergency brake from 150kph when one has never tried it before is asking for trouble. Same goes for trail braking. If someone isn't familiar with it, the chances of things going wrong when the rider most needs those skills will be high.

As for engaging the brakes mid corner.... well, it should never get to that point if a rider is trail braking to begin with.

I think our ideas and advice are slowly coming together, its hard to relay exactly what you mean across an internet forum. And while I agree that trail braking is useful and can save you in some nasty situations, I think first he needs to learn to control the bike in a turn and maintain correct weight transfer or he won't be confident to make it through the turns he doesn't overcook let alone keep himself upright when he does come in too hot.

[pritch]

Having read this thread and seen what I considered some seriously bad advice I thought I had better do some revision. Passed a pleasant hour revising David L Hough, Nick Ienatch, Keith Code and Lee Parks.

Simply put, closing the throttle or braking will tighten the line. If the bike stands up you did it wrong, the braking was too abrupt.

For most corners the slowest point is the point just prior to turn in, from that point you should be rolling the throttle on.
Everything should be smooth. Trail braking, or using the rear brake to tighten the line, are probably better left until a rider has mastered the basics.

Turn in under braking is a technique best reserved for the track where the grip is consistent and a known quantity. On the road with its myriad of variables and constantly fluctuating grip levels it is an unneccessary risk.

KBers love to recommend Keith Codes TOTW2 but I don't think that is the first book a rider should read. Although a lot of the information is applicable to the road, those books are primarily aimed at racers. Better for less experienced riders - "Motorcycle Roadcraft: The Police Riders' Manual", which IMHO is the best first book for anyone and if you only own one motorcycling book, that should be the one. David L Hough's books "Proficient Motorcycling - The Ultimate Guide to Riding Well" and "Proficient Motorcycling - Mastering the Ride" are aimed at road riders and contain a wealth of good information. Although some of the material will require translating from driving on the right hand side of the road. So too will Nick Ienatch's book.

[Drew]

What you have to realize is everyone learns differently and you it appears learn best from a book. After reading your post and others I think riding lessons that have a focus on cornering would be the way to go as so many posters on here make cornering sound very complex and no one apart from myself has said anything about concentration on the road and what other traffic is doing has to take priorty over complex braking theory out of a book. That is best reserved if poster 1 wishes to get into racing in my opinion.Oh yeah, fo' sho'!

Concentrate on the oncoming cars, that'll make his ability to reduce the turning radius.

Jesus tittie fucking Christ, a technical question was asked. A lot of bullshit has been talked, and a bunch of conflicting advice was given.

The thread is a piss take! If it wasn't started that way, it turned into a piss take when everyone trying to give cornering advice ignored the OP saying they mostly use the rear brake. Why fucken bother to give advice on the middle of the corner in the event the OP overcooks it? He's not likely to get the far into the fucken bend too many more times with that habit!

[bogan]

The thread is a piss take!

Called it! :innocent:

Can we get a subforum rename, perhaps to "Survival (cough) Skills (cough-cough-splutter)"

[Katman]

The hardest bends are perhaps very low speed tight ones where the lowest gear can be too low and second too high in that situation you have to go around with your clutch lever pulled in and engage second gear as you make your way out of the turn.

Your advice sucks.

[Madness]

Motorcycles. Just ride the fucking things.

[Drew]

From experience on this KB website everyone just loves rubbishing others riding theories and if they were all bullshit we would not be alive to post them in the first place. What poster 1 needs to do is get a riding lesson and to perhaps present the theories they feel make the most sense to the instructor and let the instructor inform them of what is BS and what isn't. I am guessing you would possibly feel some instructors have bullshit theories too eh!You must know me really well to have formed an opinion thus.

That said, let me clear a few things up. I said bullshit was talked, and the only advise I have spoken against is for the OP to think about countersteering.

As for instructors, it intrigues me that you imply they are infallible. I think it's perfectly healthy to question advice that's given. Ask someone with some form of credibility of the opinion on any matter though, would be my advice.

For the most part, the accredited instructors are undoubtedly teaching a disproportionate quantity of good over bad technique.

I don't doubt I would disagree with them on many things, but I bet I would certainly learn from them. Knowing this, I would apply an open mind to the whole experience. Signed up for a rider training day once, but it was held the day after my birthday party. Prolly wouldn't have been a great idea to show up still pissed from the night before.

[bogan]

I think I debated with you on here last year over what I called coasting was technically called clutch slipping around tight corners.

At the point where you realised you struggle to make the distinction between the two, perhaps you should stop dishing out advice? :innocent::facepalm:

[Drew]

At the point where you realised you struggle to make the distinction between the two, perhaps you should stop dishing out advice? :innocent::facepalm:I reckon there's a strong argument that his inability to form a sentence should be a reason, to not type advice at least.


If you remember that thread the poster that started it also called it coasting. Not everyone is technical like you and the word coast does make sense if your moving but not in gear but only to those of us who are non technical obviously.

[bogan]

If you remember that thread the poster that started it also called it coasting. Not everyone is technical like you and the word coast does make sense if your moving but not in gear but only to those of us who are non technical obviously.

How about you worry less about yourself, and more about giving good and clear advice; or not at all (preferably). Coasting is defined as most of us interpreted it, slipping the clutch is exactly that, slipping the clutch, the uneducated should simply not be giving advice.


I reckon there's a strong argument that his inability to form a sentence should be a reason, to not type advice at least.

My money is still on it being a chick...

[Drew]

My money is still on it being a chick...I have no fucken idea what previous conversation you cunts are on about, so past experience can't be drawn apon to look for clues one way or t'other.

[bogan]

I have no fucken idea what previous conversation you cunts are on about, so past experience can't be drawn apon to look for clues one way or t'other.

Iirc she was telling cunts to coast around corners if they were 35kmhr speed rated or some shit.

[Madness]

Iirc she was telling cunts to coast around corners if they were 35kmhr speed rated or some shit.

My Mrs does that in the car all the time. I get urges to slap her when she does it. :facepalm:

[Drew]

Iirc she was telling cunts to coast around corners if they were 35kmhr speed rated or some shit.
Oh God, wasn't it a Bosslady thread? Something about whether to use 'high' or 'low' on her slow cooker for her dinner maybe?

Yeah, think I did make it clear that morons (no matter how long they have managed to stay alive on a bike) shouldn't give advice. Don't recall anything gender specific in the dribble though. Prolly just me missing something obvious.

[actungbaby]

[QUOTE=The Little Gixxer;1130685848]Ok so i was plodding along the other day and as I came around the corner it seemed I had mischosen my line leaving me coming out wide and entering the left hand lane. Maybe it was a lack of concentration on my part but also the fact I haven't been riding long has a bit to pay.

So my question is what is the best way to tighten the line:

Slow down a bit is the best advice i use the rear brake dab it but really road isnt the place for being a hero

[XP@]

Moderator : any chance we can clean up the stuff in this thread that isn't a useful answer to the questions posed?

[The Little Gixxer]

Ok so obviously there are many different ways to do this and no one way is perfect for everyone. That doesn't mean that the advice given is bad or unjustified just something that needs to be tempered. As such I have developed quite a bit through reading this and through practicing each idea that has been brought up.

Essentially for me it isn't just about tightening the line although that seemed at the out set what I should have been doing. The reason I didn't stay on track was because of a number of factors that now having read through I can pinpoint a little more clearly.
Step by step, I came into the corner too fast for my ability, got distracted, thought I was going too fast, got distracted, line starts opening, got distracted and it goes on. Essentially the key here was I was at fault for not focusing.

What I wanted to know was how to tighten it back up again once you have moved off the ideal line. This has been answered several times by itself and also in the whole as a general discussion of how to enter, follow and come out of corners. This has been incredibly useful information although at times a little difficult to grasp until i am on the bike.

I still tend to use the rear brake more that the front but will work on this habit, have found that slowing before the corner to a manageable speed choosing the right gear and then applying throttle (open/closed when necessary) has helped this means I have less to worry about as I go through the corner. All I have to do is feel the bike, know what it is doing and look where I want it to go. Sounds easy but it is still a skill I am working on.

Thank you very much to all the contributors. It has really shown both the support and diversity of this forum to me. I am glad that although sometimes tongue in cheek you overall provide a valid sounding board and advice.

Thanks.:clap:

[The Little Gixxer]

Yes I did, that's what I meant by feel the bike. Knowing which way to shift the weight and how far so it maintains its line throughout the corner in the most efficient manner. Seems it is a skill that I have but needs some fine tuning for safeties sake more than anything else.

[XP@]

Did you not read where he did post and thank others for their replies? So some of the responses must have made sense to him even if not to you.

Yes I did, but since then there are quite a lot of comments that are really off topic and detract from the future value of the thread.
The philosophy discussions are also useful and I would like to participate in a robust debate on the subject but I don't believe this is the place as it is way too low level.

[bogan]

Yes I did, that's what I meant by feel the bike. Knowing which way to shift the weight and how far so it maintains its line throughout the corner in the most efficient manner. Seems it is a skill that I have but needs some fine tuning for safeties sake more than anything else.

Don't shift your weight mid way through the corner if you're going off line, shifting your weight is something you do before the corner, on account of its propensity to upset the suspension etc. Just ease off the power, tip it in a bit further, and don't fuck it up the next time.

[Katman]

At the risk of upsetting Drew - counter steering is the best way to change your line in a corner.

Where your bike heads is a direct result of the input you put into your bars.

[Drew]

At the risk of upsetting Drew - counter steering is the best way to change your line in a corner.

Where your bike heads is a direct result of the input you put into your bars.Oh yeah, you hate upsetting people.

Loading the bar and leaning in is where it's at for sure.

I just believe it's not achieved through conscious thought of the mechanics, of the action.

[The Little Gixxer]

I would agree with Drew that the less I think about it and the more I feel it the easier it gets. When I was thinking about it just too much to process at once and easy to forget something. The advice is still the same just try to learn by instinct is I think what Drew is talking about.

[Drew]

More importantly, stop using the back brake. Altogether if you're not riding gravel roads or pissing rain. Even then I only use the back brake to gauge the grip levels.

I think people say something like 70% front, 30% rear. I reckon it's 95% front, and 5% rear at the most.

I use the back brake for when I'm doing wheelies, I have only a vague recollection of using it outside of that application. (Funny story, I flipped my GL the other night after breaking off the brake pedal, and doing a wheelie anyway after forgetting).

Using the brakes mid turn is too tricky to write about in depth, sooooo many things to consider. In an emergency of course, but you stand the bike up and hope for the best in those situations I have mostly found.

[Katman]

I just believe it's not achieved through conscious thought of the mechanics, of the action.

It has to be thought about before it becomes a sub-conscious action.

[Drew]

It has to be thought about before it becomes a sub-conscious action.Nope. Children learn to ride push bikes and dirt bikes without ever having heard of 'countersteering'.

[Katman]

Nope. Children learn to ride push bikes and dirt bikes without ever having heard of 'countersteering'.

Well clearly the OP didn't understand the concept sufficiently to put it into action.

(And presumably he's been doing it already).

[Drew]

Well clearly the OP didn't understand the concept sufficiently to put it into action.

(And presumably he's been doing it already).Through a lack of experience and confidence I submit.

Bikers need to stop being retards, on their bikes. Problem is, most don't know they suck at what they think they're boss at.

Training should be manditory, for all road users. Us arguing on here is futile.

PS, you coming to the have a go day this year?

[Katman]

Through a lack of experience and confidence I submit.

Bikers need to stop being retards, on their bikes. Problem is, most don't know they suck at what they think they're boss at.

Training should be manditory, for all road users. Us arguing on here is futile.

PS, you coming to the have a go day this year?

Your example of children riding push bikes doesn't stack up Drew.

Children generally steer the handlebars of a push bike in the direction they want to turn.

New motorcyclists would be better off gaining an understanding of the mechanics of countersteering rather than filling their heads with that Twist of the Wrist bollocks.

Yes, I'll be at the have a go day. Are you coming to the bike show on Sunday?

[Drew]

Your example of children riding push bikes doesn't stack up Drew.

Children generally steer the handlebars of a push bike in the direction they want to turn.

New motorcyclists would be better off gaining an understanding of the mechanics of countersteering rather than filling their heads with that Twist of the Wrist bollocks.

Yes, I'll be at the have a go day. Are you coming to the bike show on Sunday?

They still turn the wrong way to steer the wheels out from under them, to promote the lean required. That is all that counter steering is. The need to continue loading the inside bar is simply fighting the geometry and forces at work.

Dunno anything about the bike show. We'll be racing the truck meeting again.

[James Deuce]

No they don't. They're not going fast enough to need to with standard pushie geometry.

[bogan]

Do we need to call hitcher?

The way I've always seen it, is steering/turning etc, which while reliant on counter-steering principals, isn't 'counter-steering'. Counter-steering is when you give the bar a big enough whack that the gyroscopic forces impart a rather abrupt lean angle change; i.e. 45+deg per second. The former is something you don't need to spell out as 'counter-steering', and the latter is something you don't want to do mid corner anyway.


No they don't. They're not going fast enough to need to with standard pushie geometry.

yeh they do, even pedlies have trail and balance and whatnot

[Katman]

Do we need to call hitcher?

The way I've always seen it, is steering/turning etc, which while reliant on counter-steering principals, isn't 'counter-steering'. Counter-steering is when you give the bar a big enough whack that the gyroscopic forces impart a rather abrupt lean angle change; i.e. 45+deg per second. The former is something you don't need to spell out as 'counter-steering', and the latter is something you don't want to do mid corner anyway.



yeh they do, even pedlies have trail and balance and whatnot

I'd suggest you head on back to school.

You're wrong.

[bogan]

I'd suggest you head on back to school.

You're wrong.

I'm not allowed back there, and they give me funny looks when I try.

You're not very good at rebutting.

[pritch]

My money is still on it being a chick...

Yeah, the bastard that invented the electric start has a lot to answer for. Prior to that chicks were almost exclusively on pillion seats. :devil2:

[pritch]

Do we need to call hitcher?


Why? Is this thread about grammar now?

Many moons ago I had a BMW K100RS, nice bike but those things steered like a supertanker. Most "brick" riders of my acquaintance used to consciously counter-steer to get the bike to turn quicker. We would physically have a little practice when setting out on a trip. This practice habit returns occasionally but none of the bikes I have owned since have been quite so reluctant to change direction.

[James Deuce]

yeh they do, even pedlies have trail and balance and whatnot

Set off in first on a mountain bike and push on the left bar while leaning left and let us know how that goes for you. I was taught how to counter steer by a cyclist when I was about 17. Prior to that going round corners when going relatively fast was magic fu. I did a cycle tour of the central Nth Island with him and learned more about 2 wheeled dynamics than I'd thought was possible. My dirt riding improved out of sight, because I learned when to counter steer and when to point the wheel where I wanted to go instead of relying on magic fu. There is a point where you go from "normal" to "counter" steering and it is at relatively low speed, but it is dependent on geometry what that speed is.

For instance, I don't counter steer out of my gargre of a morning. That would unsensible, bordering on unhinged. I do counter steer into the first corner I come to on the road at the legal urban (not Keith) limit.

[James Deuce]

Why? Is this thread about grammar now?

Many moons ago I had a BMW K100RS, nice bike but those things steered like a supertanker. Most "brick" riders of my acquaintance used to consciously counter-steer to get the bike to turn quicker. We would physically have a little practice when setting out on a trip. This practice habit returns occasionally but none of the bikes I have owned since have been quite so reluctant to change direction.

It's cos the grips were so close together. Relatively little mechanical leverage to overcome gyroscopic precession.

[bogan]

Why? Is this thread about grammar now?

Well, the definition of countersteering is being liberally interpereted, and I've heard hitcher hates liberals :innocent:


Set off in first on a mountain bike and push on the left bar while leaning left and let us know how that goes for you. I was taught how to counter steer by a cyclist when I was about 17. Prior to that going round corners when going relatively fast was magic fu. I did a cycle tour of the central Nth Island with him and learned more about 2 wheeled dynamics than I'd thought was possible. My dirt riding improved out of sight, because I learned when to counter steer and when to point the wheel where I wanted to go instead of relying on magic fu. There is a point where you go from "normal" to "counter" steering and it is at relatively low speed, but it is dependent on geometry what that speed is.

For instance, I don't counter steer out of my gargre of a morning. That would unsensible, bordering on unhinged. I do counter steer into the first corner I come to on the road at the legal urban (not Keith) limit.

Yeh but how did you get to be leaning left? by turning to the right (probably unconsciously) to move the bikes wheel track rightwards, to give a leftwards lean. In other words, try riding straight, then turn the bars to the left, betcha you'll end up on your arse with a sore right shoulder.

There are two factors that are technically countersteering, once being gyroscopics, the other being movement of the wheel track. I consider the latter to be instinctive, and the former to be what people should refer to when talking about the counter-steering technique.

[pritch]

I think people say something like 70% front, 30% rear. I reckon it's 95% front, and 5% rear at the most.


Or sometimes less than 5%? Although I believe cruisers are different... :whistle:

294517

[Drew]

Or sometimes less that 5%? Although I believe cruisers are different... :whistle:

294517

Yeah, I use no back brake at all. Road and track at least.

Bad buzz when the front brakes on the race bike failed. The rear had never been pumped hack up after a wheel change.

Quite the mind fuck for me, to climb on a cruiser. Can barely ride the things till I get some pace on.

Still got me buggered, how Marc can turn a bike with the rear wheel off the bloody ground completely.

[James Deuce]

Yeh but how did you get to be leaning left? .

I WANT HIM TO FALL ON HIS LEFT HIP WHILE THE BIKE SHOOTS OFF TO THE RIGHT!

Shhh. You're missing the point :)

Drop the intuitive stuff. It paranormal psycho-babble. Steer the damn thing. It's why it has handlebars.

AT low speed there is no need to counter steer. anything from 10-30 km/hr depending on geometry. There's so little gyroscopic precession to over come that you can do it by steering normally. Over those speeds, once you intitiate the turn with counter steering you then steer "normally". Push left to go left, bike leans, then the bars move to the left and you steer left, the reduced curcumference of the (cos of the way bike tyres are made) tyre tracks the radius of the turn. Counter steering provides the lean angle you need to make the radius of the turn you are attempting. The quicker and more precisely you dial it in the better then end result. Try watching the bars of bike in a video where you can see it . Dial it in conciously. ALl the stress of magic fu goes away.

This video shows it really well, at very low speed. I bump the bars right to go right (or left - it's not all right can turns or that would just be a circle and wouldn't really demonstrate the point) and as soon as the lean angle is dialled in the bars turn right.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6-quF5OuAo

[Katman]

You're not very good at rebutting.

You're just too used to hearing the word disingenuous.

[bogan]

You're just too used to hearing the word disingenuous.

Probably, but I'm also too used to being told to make counter arguments to my own points.

I think everyone is fairly aware of the mechanics of cornering at least, whether or not that falls into the realms of countersteering seems to be up to nitpicking.

[Katman]

I think everyone is fairly aware of the mechanics of cornering at least, whether or not that falls into the realms of countersteering seems to be up to nitpicking.

Once again, the OP certainly doesn't seem to have been.

And I'm sure he's not the only one.

[oneofsix]

Once again, the OP certainly doesn't seem to have been.

And I'm sure he's not the only one.

this thread is proof of your point. No matter where you stand it seems the opposing point has been advised within the thread

[AllanB]

10 pages and no one has suggested a Lithium battery yet ......... :bleh:

[Robbo]

10 pages and no one has suggested a Lithium battery yet ......... :bleh:

Hey!! How about trying a Lithium Battery...:niceone:

[ducatilover]

Although I believe cruisers are different... :whistle:

Is that a gay joke?


Youtubez videoz
:2thumbsup Nice Kat.




And I am pretty certain I have made the most accurate answer in this thread.
$10 says he's being a dick and is too stiff.

[rocketman1]

Interesting thread. A lot of KBrs are obviously experts at this cornering lark.
Also interesting is that fact that 48% of motorcycle deaths in NZ are on corners.
I would like to say that until you have gone into a corner too fast and have almost collided with a car coming the other way, you probably don't know how frigging scary this experience is. This happened to me several years back and I believe I have learned from it.
I also know that when you have about 2/10 th of a second before impact, all the countersteering, track days, and other things you have read will not make any sense at all.
I know all this stuff and have ridden for many years and gone around probably 100,000 corners in perfect safety.
Then just one corner can change things forever.

All logic seems to go out the door, there is only one thing you are thinking about , is how to avoid the car.
Lucky for me the car driver was alert and swerved this gave me half a metre, I don't know why but I just stood on the pegs, forced the bike down with my left hand and foot ( it was a left had corner), these actions saved my life. I also think I used a bit of back brake, but not too sure.
I felt I had no time do anything else. It is fine to say do this / do that when it happens you have to do what comes naturally, and this worked for me. It was the closest call I have ever had.
I immediately had a sick feeling in my guts and I guess was in a bit of shock.
I said to myself " I will never ever exit a corner like this again".
This event changed my style of riding. I hope some readers learn from it.
IT WAS GREAT TO ARRIVE HOME AND BACK TO FAMILY THAT DAY. I felt a bit guilty in a strange way.


Two things I have learnt is
1) Concentrate, all the time.....especially on roads you are not familiar with.
2) Change down gears before going into corners, select a gear suitable for the corner.

Lastly slow down.

[Berries]

Interesting thread. A lot of KBrs are obviously experts at this cornering lark..
Well, we do it several times a day, what makes someone an expert? The fact that most people cannot write down what they do is neither here or there.


Also interesting is that fact that 48% of motorcycle deaths in NZ are on corners.
Killing yourself on a corner is a piece of piss. Killing yourself on a straight is quite a bit harder, unless you get someone else to join in the fun/take the blame.

[pritch]

Is that a gay joke?


Not at all. Most cruisers have completely different weight distribution and steering geometry. My reading indicates cruiser riders sometimes use different cornering lines and braking techniques, but I'm no expert having ridden cruisers on only a couple of occasions.

On reflection though, I don't recall ever having seen a photo of a cruiser rider doing what MM93 is doing with his Honda a page or so back.
(And no, that's not a gay joke either.)

[Metastable]

Ironically - this came out on ROadracingworld.com today.... not really related to the topic per say, but interesting how a teacher at Yale thought these guys (the trail braking school bunch) had excellent teaching skills. Nick is the one on a different level in the group picture.

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/yamaha-champions-riding-school-instructors-speak-to-students-educators-at-yale/

[Drew]

So, some tard red repped me saying my advice was maybe good for the track, but no good for the road.

I fail to see the difference in bike control, because of the surroundings. The fundamentals do not change.

[Metastable]

So, some tard red repped me saying my advice was maybe good for the track, but no good for the road.

I fail to see the difference in bike control, because of the surroundings. The fundamentals do not change.

I agree with you. However, folks tend to think that if you use "track skills" on the road, you must be riding too fast. Although on the street one can't take the same liberties as one would at the track, and the riding style on the street can be different, learning important riding skills should still be a must.

Also - aside from the fact that cars lean the wrong way.... many of the principals are the same. Increase speed in corner = wider line, decrease speed = tighter line, trail braking = easier cornering because the front suspension is loaded = more grip on the front tires, look where you want to go... etc. One can practice all of that in a cage. Although, cars can park themselves these days.... that's just not fair. :D

[James Deuce]

OH FFS, it's all a learning experience and part of the experience is trying things out and using what makes your life easier in a positive fashion.

[BuzzardNZ]

Hey!! How about trying a Lithium Battery...:niceone:

I know they are supposed to be the dogs nuts ( or not ) , but do they also help you go round corners better too? :wacko:
Ed would have you believe this!

[oneblackflag]

Isn't it the counter steering vs 'normal' steering that catches kids out when you take off thier training wheels? All of a sudden the bike won't go where they point it at higher speed.

[James Deuce]

Isn't it the counter steering vs 'normal' steering that catches kids out when you take off thier training wheels? All of a sudden the bike won't go where they point it at higher speed.

Nope. It's the bike leaning when they lose balance briefly.

[oneblackflag]

Nope. It's the bike leaning when they lose balance briefly.

Yes and that...

[James Deuce]

Nope. Not "and". You're looking at a fairly decent clip before you have to counter steer. Most kids do half a crank rotation and steer off into the bushes because of the effort they put into rotating a pedal and bracing against the bars at the same time. Front wheel turns, bike leans, kid off. It's not until they learn to relax their grip on the bars that things start working nicely.

[oneblackflag]

Nope. Not "and". You're looking at a fairly decent clip before you have to counter steer. Most kids do half a crank rotation and steer off into the bushes because of the effort they put into rotating a pedal and bracing against the bars at the same time. Front wheel turns, bike leans, kid off. It's not until they learn to relax their grip on the bars that things start working nicely.

Yes I agree this is the first stage, hence my saying at "higher speed"; once they've mastered the above, they then have to deal with counter steering (with training wheels they could steer by poining the tyre where they wanted to go, the bike leans over onto the outside training wheel; its now riding on three wheels and behaving more like a car steers. Remove the training wheel and turn in the same fashion and you're off).

[Ocean1]

FFS are you lot still banging on about how to steer a motorbike?

It's really really simple, and it matters not what speed you do. You steer the fucking thing so it's under your arse when you're headed the way you want to go.

Now run along and play on the motorway.

[Gremlin]

I agree with you. However, folks tend to think that if you use "track skills" on the road, you must be riding too fast. Although on the street one can't take the same liberties as one would at the track, and the riding style on the street can be different, learning important riding skills should still be a must.

Also - aside from the fact that cars lean the wrong way.... many of the principals are the same. Increase speed in corner = wider line, decrease speed = tighter line, trail braking = easier cornering because the front suspension is loaded = more grip on the front tires, look where you want to go... etc. One can practice all of that in a cage. Although, cars can park themselves these days.... that's just not fair. :D
Not sure if you're taking the piss or not. Track and road riding are different with different skills and objectives. While there are complimentary skills, learning both properly at the same time leads to a confused rider (seen it).

Trail braking into a corner on the road is poor riding. You get your braking over and done with before a corner while upright, when braking is most effective. Tyres have a grip limit, and giving some to cornering and some for braking leaves you with less available for cornering.

[Drew]

Trail braking into a corner on the road is poor riding. You get your braking over and done with before a corner while upright, when braking is most effective. Tyres have a grip limit, and giving some to cornering and some for braking leaves you with less available for cornering.

Absolute bullshit. Please don't teach anyone to ride!

The stability of a bike whilst leaned over, is controlled primarily with the brake or throttle. Release the brakes gradually as you lean, then apply the throttle through the apex and as you stand it up.

This is constant, road, track, dirt, snow. They fall over when they're not fighting one wheel or the other.

[Kickaha]

Trail braking into a corner on the road is poor riding. You get your braking over and done with before a corner while upright, when braking is most effective. Tyres have a grip limit, and giving some to cornering and some for braking leaves you with less available for cornering.

I'm fucking glad no cunt told me that before last weekend, I would have been to worried about my poor riding to survive the 1100km trip I did while trail braking into every corner

Oh yeah I turn in under front brakes too, works for me, fuck what everyone else thinks

[tbs]

I like Ducati Lover's advice.... but it needs some expanding on.

Some of you guys have clearly been riding so long you've forgotten how hard it can be to learn how to steer a bike. I don't blame you, but some of the advice you give is pretty bloody unhelpful and / or dangerous.

This has been my experience of learning to ride a motorbike after years of riding and racing mountain bikes. Talking about how even kids can counter steer because they do it on push bikes is almost completely irrelevant. A push bike weighs considerably less than a motorbike and has a small fraction of the gyroscopic forces acting on it. For a start, no push bike has a massive crankshaft spinning at high revs high up in the frame doing everything in it's power to stop you leaning the bike over. I had to learn this the scary way. I would enter a corner on the motorbike and do the same thing I've always done on the push bike and it wouldn't work. Rather than me steering the bike, I found it was steering me.... and damned if I could get the thing to turn as tight as I wanted it.

What was happening, was I was pushing on the inside bar, but instead of leaning the bike further, my upper body was getting pushed upwards and outwards, and the bike was not leaning any further. To compound this problem, I was tending to rest a lot of my upper body weight on the bars, which mean't my arms were stiff and I was kind of fighting the front wheel. Then when I started running wide I was powerless to tighten my line because I had completely lost my leverage on the bars. My inside arm was straight, and any attempts to counter steer were just causing me to stand my upper body up and tighten up further. I was then target locking on where I was heading, completely frozen on the bike. I was "riding like a penis."

Going to a Prorider training day at Pukekohe helped a lot. Carol taught us the mechanics of the various ways to steer the bike, but for me the biggest thing was body position. On the mountain bike I lean the bike but keep my upper body upright. On the motorbike I had to learn to get my upper body inside the center line of the bike and keep it there. For me that mean't exaggerating how much I moved my upper body to the inside, dropping my inside shoulder and making a point of turning my whole head to look through the curve, rather than just using my eyes. This stopped me rotating my upper body around the bike and running out of leverage.

More recently I have practiced taking my weight off my hands while I corner and using my lower body to hold my upper body. This allows the front wheel to track much better and means that my outside arm is not fighting my inside arm and reducing leverage on the bars. The OP is on a sports bike with low bars and I'll wager good money that he puts a lot of weight on his hands.

OP, try this: Ride through any basic 90 degree bend with your weight on your hands and see how it feels. Then try it again with you upper body leaned to the inside, your head turned and your weight supported by your lower body and no weight on your hands. I'm absolutely certain you will find that the bike virtually turns itself.

If your inside arm is straight, you've run out of leverage and you can't "counter steer". You must always have some bend in your elbow.

Now go ride like a Vagina. (Thanks Ducati Lover.)

[Drew]

It seems the loonies have gotten on the grass.

I'm out.

OP, go get some training. The arguments on here over what's needed make any good advice impossible to find.

[tbs]

It seems the loonies have gotten on the grass.

Drew if this was directed at me I'm all ears. I'll be the first to admit I've got loads to learn, but the initial learning curve and the feeling of being unable to make the bike do what I wanted it to do is still fairly fresh in my memory.

[pritch]

Absolute bullshit. Please don't teach anyone to ride!

Release the brakes gradually as you lean, then apply the throttle through the apex and as you stand it up.



Sorry, not for road, or track. This thread is about a relative beginner, it's not supposed to be an esoteric master class. So forget trail braking or turning in under brakes.
Brake while bike is vertical gas rolls on as bike turns in.

How else would you explain all those pictures of Stoner, Simoncelli, Marquez, Rossi et al, sideways, laying darkies, well before the apex?
You won't be able to convince me that those guys are under brakes - or that they are about to ride over the paint.

By the way, I heard an interview with Keith Code a coupla years back, he had just been watching a GP and it had become apparent to him that while trail braking was "an elegant solution" it was obsolete at the top level. He said Toseland and others down the field were trail braking, but the aliens were either on the gas or on the brakes - no half measures. No trail braking.

[Drew]

Sorry, not for road, or track. Brake while bike is vertical gas rolls on as bike turns in.

How else would you explain all those pictures of Stoner, Simoncelli, Marquez, Rossi et all, sideways, laying darkies, well before the apex?
You won't be able to convince me that those guys are under brakes - or that they are about to ride over the paint.

By the way, I heard an interview with Keith Code a coupla years back, he had just been watching a GP and it had become apparent to him that while trail braking was "an elegant solution" it was obsolete at the top level. He said Toseland and others down the field were trail braking, but the aliens were either on the gas or on the brakes - no half measures. No trail braking.

By all means, rear wheel steer yourself around corners on the road. Been a couple months since there was a KB members funeral now.

And yet still, those same aliens who can do it are braking as they lean the bike. The slowest part of the corner is when they let the brakes go and get on the gas.

I haven't directly said trail braking, I would need a definition before comment. But releasing the brake before tip in, and not getting the throttle open to whatever degree is a recipe for falling over.

[Metastable]

Trail braking = Carrying the brakes into the corner and trailing them off (i.e. reducing brake pressure) as lean angle increases.

Those aliens on the pictures could be either on the brakes or on the gas. You can get your ass end coming around while on the front brakes.... saw Scott Russell do it in front of me a bunch of times..... you can also do it getting on the gas.

Look at the brake lights on the video below:

Ken Hill at Miller on and FZ1 (bike being filmed) dunno who is behind him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKpVzWaxQkc

Ken Hill at Vegas on an FZ1, Shane Turpin is on the Camera bike most likely an FZ1, because that is what they use for their camera bikes. Vegas is a bit bumpy and the FZ1 isn't exactly an R6.... so it bounces around a bit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2ilmpP6Wiw

Now, you can see on the Miller video, them hitting the brakes while leaned over as opposed to having them on while tipping in (which is easier). However, that track has a lot of double apex corners. Can it be done, for sure. Staring to brake before cornering is NOT dangerous on the road and you don't have to be going at scary speeds to experiment with it. If one wants to tootle and just keep on the gas gently around the corners, that cool too. That's what the Pace is all about. BUT - peeps should learn how to trail brake.... because you never know when things might go wrong.

[Metastable]

Even better Ken Hill does a voice over. Listen carefully, lots of good stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2ilmpP6Wiw

[ducatilover]

I like Ducati Lover's advice.... but it needs some expanding on.



I found expanding vaginas helps me ride too

[Berries]

I found expanding vaginas helps me ride too
Doing it or having one? I'd like one myself actually, be better than my tank bag.


To the OP, lean more. Everything else in this thread comes with experience and you learn that riding not reading.

[pritch]

Those aliens on the pictures could be either on the brakes or on the gas.

Not on this planet. They wouldn't be laying all those black lines arund the apex if they were on the brakes.

The Moto 2 guys back it in under brakes, the GP guys are on the gas.

Might be hyper critical of me but I wasn't totally convinced by the riding clips, the guy often has his head and body on the wrong side of the bike. Like some KBers when they are trying to get a knee down. For comparison: my avatar (he is supposed to ge quite good) - or those photos of Stoner and Simoncelli.

All of which is getting away from explaining to a relative beginner how to tighten the line in a corner?

[Metastable]

You can leave black marks while hanging out the back end with the brakes on. I'm not saying that in those pictures that is what is happening.... I can't tell from the picture. I can tell you I have seen Russell do it in front of me lap after lap at Miller, I've seen other guys do it in front of me too (ya I'm not the fastest nor do I want to be..... but I get some great braking shows). Mat McBride who is a quick Canadian rider, but would probably never win a World Superbike race even if he was given top machinery would do it lap after lap after lap..... it was a thing of beauty.

As for the videos, people can look at them and get their own conclusions..... one can clearly see how racers use their brakes.... and it can be going into the corner, in the corner, whatever.

NOTE: I am not saying to ride how Ken Hill is riding!!!! I'm not saying, go BALLS to the WALLS and nail the brakes.... trail it hard to the apex. Just that it is VERY safe even for the newbiest of newbies to TRY trail braking. You can be going into a corner that you can see through, don't need to slow down, but just tag the front brake very lightly before turn in and keep it engaged into the corner. See what it feels like. That would be totally harmless..... then keep practicing. It is true, you can't learn from reading!!! You do need to get out there and practice! Trail braking, emergency braking, and other skills should be practiced on every ride IMO. That's how you get good at it.

BTW, in this video you can clearly see darkies being laid down while guys are braking (usually using some rear brake too). Sure, supermotos.... but it's two wheels.... same principals apply. Absolutely not advisable for a newbie... but you can lay down a blackie with the rear wheel on the gas or on the brakes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeUK6aOEJKo

[Gremlin]

I fail to see why you would brake into a corner on the road, when you can have your braking finished in a straight line. There is no requirement to fight for a position or keep your space or outbrake someone else when road riding. Further, you can brake harder, with more safety, in a straight line. This is where road and track vary, and you keep referring to track riders and situations.

[AllanB]

I fail to see why you would brake into a corner on the road, when you can have your braking finished in a straight line. There is no requirement to fight for a position or keep your space or outbrake someone else when road riding. Further, you can brake harder, with more safety, in a straight line. This is where road and track vary, and you keep referring to track riders and situations.

Fair point. And for a newbie - getting your braking done BEFORE the corner is a good plan, if you find you have slowed down more than you expected you can always accelerate out of the corner like a pro!

Actually this is the only way I learnt to ride as back then bikes had no ability to brake in a corner - they just stood up!

[Metastable]

I fail to see why you would brake into a corner on the road, when you can have your braking finished in a straight line. There is no requirement to fight for a position or keep your space or outbrake someone else when road riding. Further, you can brake harder, with more safety, in a straight line. This is where road and track vary, and you keep referring to track riders and situations.

Like I said, if one is tootling around and doesn't need to hit the brakes, that's cool. If you are pushing it a bit, but still don't "need" to hit the brakes or you get your braking done before the corner..... it is safer to trail them into the corners, since you will have more pressure on the front tire = more safety. (I know that might be a tough one for some peeps to wrap their head around... but it is true)

Now, every corner is different, but if you live in Auckland, you probably have gone over towards Tauranga and done the Coromandel ..... or other tighter roads were you can get some rock debris falling off the side of the hill. Many of the tighter corners you can't see through them. In those corners, I like to carry some front brake especially on the downhill sections in case there is something in the middle of the road. Already on the brakes = easier to control the bike. No brakes..... becomes a bit more like roulette.

I refer to the track, because one can see these things happening to an extreme level, so it becomes easier to understand why people do it and how it works. On videos it is more evident... and in practice it makes it easier to understand what happens and why.... plus if it is done at the track, then while riding at much slower speeds on the road, it will be THAT MUCH easier to do.

[ducatilover]

Doing it or having one? I'd like one myself actually, be better than my tank bag.




You'd need to shave it often, and finding the bit that you rub to open it? No way.

[Gremlin]

If you are pushing it a bit, but still don't "need" to hit the brakes or you get your braking done before the corner..... it is safer to trail them into the corners, since you will have more pressure on the front tire = more safety. (I know that might be a tough one for some peeps to wrap their head around... but it is true)
Also an excellent way to low side. A tyre only has so much grip to offer, so use it for cornering. Remember, this is the road. You shouldn't be pushing it, you should be able to stop in the distance ahead (or half if there is only one lane).


Now, every corner is different, but if you live in Auckland, you probably have gone over towards Tauranga and done the Coromandel ..... or other tighter roads were you can get some rock debris falling off the side of the hill. Many of the tighter corners you can't see through them. In those corners, I like to carry some front brake especially on the downhill sections in case there is something in the middle of the road. Already on the brakes = easier to control the bike. No brakes..... becomes a bit more like roulette.
Done most roads in the country. If you can't see through the corner then you adjust your speed accordingly, until the vanishing point increases exponentially in front of you (which shows you're now exiting the corner). Also crucial, is your positioning, to offer maximum forward visibility. With your theory, you could also argue that already being on the brake, it's possible you will grab in panic and again, low side.

Advanced roadcraft... you brake before the corner setting your position and speed upon the information at hand, and braking into the corner means you likely mis-read it in the first place.

[Metastable]

Also an excellent way to low side.

Everything you said above is true except for that bit. Unless one is pushing it to track levels a little bit of front brake drag isn't going to lowside your bike. If you are riding the way you described and drag the front, IMO it is safer and easier to corner than not being on the brake at all. Every corner is different..... so it is hard to describe, but if you read previous posts of mine on this thread, I have already mentioned what you said.... should be able to stop as far as you can see.

EDIT ->
Let's put it this way, you have adjusted your speed to the corner, it is a blind left. Now you find out you need to hit the brakes. What is safer, already being on the front brake or having to engage it mid corner? You can do both, but if I am already dragging the front it is easier for me to change direction or stop or both. My suspension isn't going to be as affected as it would if I were not on the front brakes.

OR -> And I know a corner like this that has killed 2 and caused numerous crashes (well into the double digits). We'd even warn people ahead of time and they'd still crash. Scenario (I will flip the road sides to make it easier for you folks to envision). Downhill blind right, but you could see the road up ahead, except that it did vanish behind the blind right. At the point where you'd think the road would start turning left, it would actually tighten to the right even more....bang... they all crashed there. It was a decreasing radius blind corner.

Trailing brakes on that corner made it easy. Even if one was going nice and slow (and most of the crashers were) that OH POOP moment grabbing front brakes mid corner and panicking caused them to crash.

A bit of front brakes going into the corner isn't going to lowside anyone. That is the biggest myth in motorcycling.

[pritch]

it is safer to trail them into the corners, since you will have more pressure on the front tire = more safety. (I know that might be a tough one for some peeps to wrap their head around... but it is true)



Sorry not true. As I said before: on the track there is good grip and the level of grip should be consistent. (OK, we know about Indianapolis.)
The road basically never provides that much grip, and what grip there is may be highly variable. And that's before some dickhead spills diesel or cow shit all over the place. Turning in under brakes is only OK if you can be confident of the surface. Unfortunately on the road that is rare.

Hving said that, there is a section of road; downhill twisties now with nice hotmix surface, where I will most times trail brake into some of the turns. Just so I can still do it if I need to. But on a trip? Definitely not.

[The Little Gixxer]

So everything you have all spoken about has put me in a much better position. It has been a tough haul but the training has paid off. After a recent lane sharing experience with a ute that thought my lane was better than his I can definately say that the more you learn the better.

Still waiting for a Ride Right course but will be on track soon to learn some over skills. Keep an eye for an ugly little 250 and that would be me.