Devastation in America

[oldrider]

I can't help wondering about the contrast in reaction to the Tsunami victims and the poor bloody victims currently in USA. I can't hear the screams of urgency to provide aid this time. Will the oil rich Muslim nations spring to the aid of Americans? Will America be condemned for reacting too slowly? Will the rest of the world rush to Americas aid? I doubt it. I think we will all just sit and watch while the poor old yanks are left to sort themselves out. Such is the curse of generous nation. The lord helps thems who help themselves. Can't help feeling very cynical about this. I hope I'm wrong. Cheers John. :hitcher:

[Warren]

well in terms of deaths

Katrina
116 direct, 19 indirect

2005 European floods
42

Tsunami
The 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake, that had a magnitude between 9.1 and 9.3, triggered a series of lethal tsunamis on 26 December 2004 that killed over 310,000 people (more than 220,000 in Indonesia alone)

That is the reason for the difference in reaction

[Motu]

The Yanks can do it all in house,they are really,really good at this sort of thing.Argentina has offered aid,including fuel.I know Telecom workers who took extended leave to get Florida phone systems up afer a hurricane about 10 yrs ago...they were paid well for it,but they went there to help,not fleece them...

[MacD]

well in terms of deaths

Katrina
116 direct, 19 indirect

2005 European floods
42

Tsunami
The 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake, that had a magnitude between 9.1 and 9.3, triggered a series of lethal tsunamis on 26 December 2004 that killed over 310,000 people (more than 220,000 in Indonesia alone)

That is the reason for the difference in reaction

Not to mention Bangladesh:

2005 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4379229.stm)
2004 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3928463.stm)
2003 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3120662.stm)
2002 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2192335.stm)
2001 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1469424.stm)
2000 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/995348.stm)

and so on...

Or 20,000+ civilian deaths (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4696875.stm) in Iraq

[Velox]

Yeah but help was offered for tsunami-hit countries cause they needed outside help. There piles of other states in the US that are loaded and can easily help.

[Waylander]

Things like this the States are better off left alone. Take care of thier own and such. You'll notice that they often don't ask for help at such times, 'least never that I've heard of.h

[Pathos]

I think the biggest difference in attitudes is because USA have a first world medical system and plenty of resources (National guard of 19 states have been activated).

But my prayers still go out to those who passed away.

[SPORK]

I think the biggest difference in attitudes is because USA have a first world medical system

Pah, in a real life test between Cuba, America and Canada, Cuba came first, Canada second and America last.

But the plot thickens. These results weren't allowed to be seen of TV, so they had to change it to Canada first, America second and Cuba third.

One of the reasons I don't trust the news any more..

[SARGE]

Pah, in a real life test between Cuba, America and Canada, Cuba came first, Canada second and America last.

But the plot thickens. These results weren't allowed to be seen of TV, so they had to change it to Canada first, America second and Cuba third.

One of the reasons I don't trust the news any more..


eh?.. real life test of what?..you lost me after "pah"

incidentally.. the US goes through this 4-5 times a year.. i remember the mess Huricane Andrew made of South Florida in '92 ( http://www.sptimes.com/2002/webspecials02/andrew/) ..
we have the plans in place to deal with this type of disaster.. the medical/relief/recovery infrastructure is world class in the Gulf and east coasts.. i, myself have been in about 1/2 dozen tornados, a couple hurricanes, countless crippling blizzards and one earthquake.. Civil defence was right on top of it before shit stopped hitting the ground

[Lou Girardin]

BTW. 800 people died yesterday in Bagdhad.

[SARGE]

BTW. 800 people died yesterday in Bagdhad.


yea Lou.. its a war zone .. they should think about moving..instead of food and medical supplies.. the Mighty UN should supply Moving Vans ( how many of those 800 were killed by Iraqi Suicide bombers targeting thier own people?)

check out this :

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/13/AR2005071300336.html

how many US troops deliberatly target kids?..

none

quit talking out of your ass and get a reality check

[MSTRS]

At the risk of appearing cynical and not caring......I am helping. I'm donating 11.5c/l every time I buy petrol now.

[Lou Girardin]

yea Lou.. its a war zone .. they should think about moving..instead of food and medical supplies.. the Mighty UN should supply Moving Vans ( how many of those 800 were killed by Iraqi Suicide bombers targeting thier own people?)

check out this :

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/13/AR2005071300336.html

how many US troops deliberatly target kids?..

none

quit talking out of your ass and get a reality check

Nothing to do with the invasion or Merkins in general. It was a crowd stampede at a religeous festival after a rumour of an attack.
Reality check?

[ManDownUnder]

Nothing to do with the invasion or Merkins in general. It was a crowd stampede at a religeous festival after a rumour of an attack.
Reality check?

I think it's a simple balance between the magnitude of the disaster (how many innocents are caught up in the thing), and the ability to deal with it.

Gross generalisation time, but America is good at looking after it's own, and is a reasonably resource rich country. It won't happen overnight - but they'll recover better than a number of other countries would have if faced with the same scenario

Re the tsunami - lots of innocents hurt - and the resources and infrastructure were not as strong as those in the US, and the years of war and unrest had left the civilian population well below strength and somewhat impoverished anyway.

In my opinion the tsnuami is in greater need of help.

Nothing against the Americans, or anyone else for that matter.

I think Lou raises a good point though - and I'll happily paraphrase (correct me if I miss that point Lou) what about the 100's of people dying and suffering on a daily basis that we never hear about - most likely because their news agencies are either controlled (Mugabi style) or simply don't exist through a lack of funding/infrastructure?

MDU

[WRT]

Sarge - that was a pretty heavy handed reply to Lou's comment. You link points to another event, not the one Lou is commenting on.

One thing that upset me was the comment on the news today that in the states there have been comments comparing this current natural disaster to the nuclear bombs dropped on Japan. Ok, so there will be some disease around during the clean up period in America, however, can you really compare this to the fallout effects of a nuclear bomb? In particular one that the nation making the comparison itself dropped onto non-military targets?

[ManDownUnder]

Sarge - that was a pretty heavy handed reply to Lou's comment. You link points to another event, not the one Lou is commenting on.

One thing that upset me was the comment on the news today that in the states there have been comments comparing this current natural disaster to the nuclear bombs dropped on Japan. Ok, so there will be some disease around during the clean up period in America, however, can you really compare this to the fallout effects of a nuclear bomb? In particular one that the nation making the comparison itself dropped onto non-military targets?

I terms of physical effects I see their point... but you're right - it is more than just a tad "dramatic" - maybe the motivation is to sell papaer.. and advertising space?

The the bombing of Japan - I don't know enough about the rationale for dropping the 2nd bomb, but don't be fooled about the "non military nature" of the target.

The Japanese had a very good idea in respect of hiding their factories making supplies for the war. They didn't have any. (where practicable) it was common practice to distribute the manufacturing out to private homes where peopel would do the work piecemeal.

It meant there was no "single point" of weakness - if 100 houses got bombed out, they only lose 2% of production (as opposed to taking out a single ammo factory lets say - and losing that same 2%). It lead to some pretty savage bombings in Japan well before the Nagasaki and Hiroshima blasts.

The general approach was to go in and reduce everything to rubble with percussive bombs, then light it with incendiaries creating massive firestorms and wiping out 1,000's of homes (and people of course).

I'm not saying it was right - I'm just saying Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren't the only big bombing carried out during the war.

Of course you could also inspect what happened to London, Dresden, and any number of other theaters of war around the globe at the time.

... just my 5c

[WRT]

Quite agree MDU, but the fact of the matter remains that the desired effect of dropping those two bombs was to terrorise (and yes, I use that word deliberately) Japan into surrendering. I realise that in doing so they managed to prematurely end a war that would otherwise have cost countless further lives, but still, it was at a terrible human cost, and not one that I feel should be taken lightly.

However, not wanting to detract from what is currently happening in America, and my thoughts are with the people affected by this disaster.

[MikeL]

yea Lou.. its a war zone .. they should think about moving..instead of food and medical supplies.. the Mighty UN should supply Moving Vans

And where do you suggest that they move to? Texas, perhaps?

Stupid towelheads, sticking around when bombs are going off all over the place, just because it's their home...

And just remind me, why is their country a war zone?

[eliot-ness]

[QUOTE=WRT]

One thing that upset me was the comment on the news today that in the states there have been comments comparing this current natural disaster to the nuclear bombs dropped on Japan.}QUOTE

The comment made was that the scene looked like the aftermath of the Nagasaki bomb, which, from his veiwpoint in a helicopter, it did. At no time did the reporter liken it to effects of the bomb on the human population.
The reports we've recieved of casualties are way behind the estimates made at the scene. The final results could be over a thousand deaths. Everything possible was done to avert the tragedy, but, as in all natural disasters, there were large numbers who either couldn't or wouldn't heed the warnings. Now the authorities are faced with evacuating 100,000 people from a city which is virtually cut off by rising flood waters. I doubt that any other country in the world could handle it better than the USA, regardless of the final death toll.

[ManDownUnder]

Now the authorities are faced with evacuating 100,000 people from a city which is virtually cut off by rising flood waters. I doubt that any other country in the world could handle it better than the USA, regardless of the final death toll.

Yeah - they'd be one of the better prapred ones... but they could still need help - and if they do I believe that's what the UN is for!

[WRT]

The comment made was that the scene looked like the aftermath of the Nagasaki bomb, which, from his veiwpoint in a helicopter, it did. At no time did the reporter liken it to effects of the bomb on the human population.

Saw the footage from the air where the city had just been flattened, and it did look like a bomb had been set off. But the report I was watching said that there were comparisons to Hiroshima made (not by the reporter, but others caught up in the disaster), and the way it was worded made it came across as a bit insensitive.

All that aside tho, hopefully there wont be too many casualties, and the evacuations all go according to plan.

[Lias]

I'm a nationalist, I think everyone should stick to themselves.

No-one should help the yanks out this time, and nor should they help anyone else out.

[Lou Girardin]

I won't even comment on the fact that, if Georgy Boy sought treatment for his Oedipal complex, rather than bombing the crap out of innocent Iraqis so as to prove to Mummy that he loved her more than Dad did, then Iraq, London, Madrid and the next city to be hit would be much safer places.
No, I won't comment on that.
But I'm damn sure that I'd rather be in New Orleans or Biloxi now than Hiroshima or Nagasaki 60 years ago.

[Biff]

I like to think that I'm A-political when it comes to dishing out sympathy. I couldn't give a shite where someone lives or what their political/religious views are. An innocent death is just that, and my heart goes out to anyone who loses a loved one.

Food for thought - While the US govt boasts that they're so fkin rich and powerful - last year an extra 1.1 million US citizens fell below the poverty threshold, taking the figure up to 13.7 million for 2004 - up almost 13% on the previous year.

Sort your shit out Bush.

Rant over.

(sorry - another bad morning for the Biffmeister)

[SARGE]

Sarge - that was a pretty heavy handed reply to Lou's comment. You link points to another event, not the one Lou is commenting on.




i do apologize if i came off a bit heavy Lou.. bad morning and i guess i just got sick of some of the Yank-Bashing i see around and Lou was a ready target for the bile on my part..

the link i posted was a story back in July where a bomber drove into a crowd of kids to kill a few Marines that were handing out lollies and toys

kinda makes you wonder where thier life-values lie dont it?

guys .. we Yanks arent bad..our leadership is fucked up right now and my people are paying for it.. we can and will sort out the storm and Iraq in time.. the yank bashing just gets up my nose sometimes and i have never been known as PC or tactful

[WRT]

..our leadership is fucked up right now and my people are paying for it..

That could apply to NZ'ers at the moment too, but even me (as anti-Helen as I am) would admit I would rather her in charge than Bush . . .

Anyways, the tragedys that happen (unfortunately pretty much everyday) like the storm or the deaths in Iraq are a part of life, and those affected by it need the help and support of those that are able. Strong helping the weak and all that . . .

That was one good thing about the tsunami's, was the way everyone teamed up and helped out those in need. A lesson for us all in there.

[Motu]

the yank bashing just gets up my nose sometimes and i have never been known as PC or tactful

I think it has got up the rest of the worlds nose that all over the internet yanks are stiring up shit saying ''what is the rest of the world going to do about our disaster'',knowing of course no one will.They don't have to help the rest of the world,but playing Godfather has a lot of benifits....other countries asking for blessing,going to weddings....then calling in the debt.....

[SARGE]

I think it has got up the rest of the worlds nose that all over the internet yanks are stiring up shit saying ''what is the rest of the world going to do about our disaster'',knowing of course no one will.They don't have to help the rest of the world,but playing Godfather has a lot of benifits....other countries asking for blessing,going to weddings....then calling in the debt.....


i dont think i ever recall the US calling in a marker to pay back disaster aid.. in fact alot of the famine relief in Africa, Tsunami relief etc comes from John Smith on Main Street USA and has little to do with the US govt.. We Yanks are a pack of Compassionate bastards sometimes ..that has been our downfall on several occations..

incidentally.. i have kin in the affected area and i am not asking for help from anyone for them.. they are a hearty group and will come out just fine

[Waylander]

i dont think i ever recall the US calling in a marker to pay back disaster aid.. in fact alot of the famine relief in Africa, Tsunami relief etc comes from John Smith on Main Street USA and has little to do with the US govt.. We Yanks are a pack of Compassionate bastards sometimes ..that has been our downfall on several occations..

incidentally.. i have kin in the affected area and i am not asking for help from anyone for them.. they are a hearty group and will come out just fine

Hehehe, Suddenly I thought of this...


Country boy can survive - Hank Williams, Jr



The preacher man says it's the end of time and the Mississippi River she's a goin' dry
The interest is up and the stock market's down
And you only get mugged if you go down town
I live back in the woods you see my woman and the kids and the dogs and me
I've got a shotgun a rifle and a four wheel drive
And a country boy can survive country folks can survive
I can plow a field all day long I can catch catfish from dusk till dawn
We make our own whiskey and our own smoke too
Ain't too many things these old boys can't do
We grow good tomatoes and homemade wine
And a country boy can survive country folks can survive
Because you can't starve us out and you can't make us run
Cause we're them ole boys raised on shotguns
We say grace and we say mamm if you ain't into that we don't give a damn

We come from West Virginia coal mines
And the Rocky Mountains and the western skies
And we can skin a buck we can run a trot line
And a country boy can survive country folks can survive
I had a good friend in New York City he never called me by my name just hillbilly
My grandpa taught me how to live off the land and his taught him to be a business man
He used to send me pictures of the broadway nights I'd send him some homemade wine
But he was killed by a man with a switchblade knife
For forty three dollars my friend lost his life
I'd like to spit some beechnut in that dude's eyes and shoot him with my old 45
Cause a can scountry boy urvive country folks can survive
Because you can't starve us out...

We're North California and South Alabama and little towns all around this land
And we can skin a buck and run a trot line
And a country boy can survive country folks can survive
A country boy can survive country folks can survive

[SARGE]

[QUOTE=Waylander]Hehehe, Suddenly I thought of this...

yea man... just THINK of the FISHING right now..huge fucking Tuna in the rivers.. Sunfish in the pond..

damn... now i need a bottle of whiskey and a few Charlie Danials and Hank Jr. CD's

[Motu]

We Yanks are a pack of Compassionate bastards sometimes ..that has been our downfall on several occations..

Compassion never has and never will be your downfall,but arrogance will be....

[edit] um,that's not personal,ok? Ease the hammer back and put the safety on please.....

[SARGE]

Compassion never has and never will be your downfall,but arrogance will be....

[edit] um,that's not personal,ok? Ease the hammer back and put the safety on please.....


no worries man.. i will agree that we are an arrogant pack of bastards..

could be worse though .. we could be 2 hours away and called Austrailia (P/T) :motu:

[Pathos]

Its hard to make generalisations about the states as the people differ between each state. You have to realise that each state is almost a whole country in its own right.

[SARGE]

i would like to be the first to say thanks to all the nations who are supplying aid to the victims of Katrina.. this is a huge disaster and its painfully obvious that we were ill-prepared for something on this magnitude. i guess the US is stetched too thin at this time due to commitments around the globe and we forgot about our own back yard.
my family has recieved word from our rellies in New Orleans and they are safe and secure. they have lost evreything (including their dogs) but they are in good spirits. my family in Tennesee is putting them up until they can get back on thier feet.
New Orleans will bounce back from this , and bounce back stronger. it won't happen overnight but it will ..it is the american spirit that will make it happen.

i am so ashamed of the thugs who are raising all the hell in the area ( i have nothing against looting for survival.. get all the food and nappies you can carry and pass them out to those in need) but the shit thats happening in N.O. right now is just animalistic. those guilty should be killed on sight to prevent further infection of the gene pool.

[Wolf]

could be worse though .. we could be 2 hours away and called Austrailia (P/T) :motu:
Further proof that SARGE is "Going Native"...

[Hitcher]

I imagine that some heads will soon be separated from shoulders at the much-lauded Federal Emergency Management Agency. Three-days warning before Katrina struck, magnitude and place of arrival known two days out. FEMA should have been poised to pounce immediately the winds dropped. Now almost one week later, things are slowly starting to happen, although no one agency yet appears to be in charge.

As bureaucratic cluster fucks go, this one has to rank way up there.

[ManDownUnder]

I imagine that some heads will soon be separated from shoulders at the much-lauded Federal Emergency Management Agency. Three-days warning before Katrina struck, magnitude and place of arrival known two days out. FEMA should have been poised to pounce immediately the winds dropped. Now almost one week later, things are slowly starting to happen, although no one agency yet appears to be in charge.

As bureaucratic cluster fucks go, this one has to rank way up there.

As an observation, it's easy to point and criticise after the event (as per the lack of responsiveness with 911, and the stuff ups around the Tsunami)

It makes me wonder how ready we (or anyone else for that matter) really is for an emergency of this scale. All it takes is one or two people in key positions to hesitate or make a bad decision and 1,000's get hurt.

And here I sit in Auckland.. that land of how many volcanoes?

hmmmm

[Hitcher]

9/11 (when will the Americans get over themselves and learn how to use dates correctly?) as an emergency was managed pretty darned well, considering the losses to fire and other service workers in the collapses, and the fact that the New York City emergency management centre was in one of the World Trade Centre towers! The "issue" with 9/11 was "Why didn't somebody in authority let us know this was going to happen?" The repercussions of this resulted in the establishment of the Office for Homeland Security, the invasion of Iraq (for as we all know, Saddam Hussain was to blame) and other massive over-reactions from a nation of redneck, gun-toting, bible-banging, xenophobes. Sigh.

[ManDownUnder]

9/11 (when will the Americans get over themselves and learn how to use dates correctly?) as an emergency was managed pretty darned well, considering the losses to fire and other service workers in the collapses, and the fact that the New York City emergency management centre was in one of the World Trade Centre towers! The "issue" with 9/11 was "Why didn't somebody in authority let us know this was going to happen?" The repercussions of this resulted in the establishment of the Office for Homeland Security, the invasion of Iraq (for as we all know, Saddam Hussain was to blame) and other massive over-reactions from a nation of redneck, gun-toting, bible-banging, xenophobes. Sigh.

Errr hitcher - doesn't that smack a litle of "You're different - therefore wrong?

Sure NZ date format isn't Month Day, and admittedly not many other countries are either (none that I can think of), but it's only different... not wrong.

What's the correct way to spell "color" (or is it "colour")... etc.

And, yes the issue was the diddling around ahead of the disaster happening... as per the Hurrcane Katrina situation, as per the Tsunami (which is why I raised them).

The clean up is always going to be a big job, the minimisation of damage is the challenge. At what point do you tell millions of people to hurry up and leave home?

If you get it wrong, you're in trouble, if you leave it too late - you're in trouble.

If you get it JUST right you'll be ok... and I think that's the hardest one of the three positions to pick... despite the fact they're all trying hard.

[SARGE]

9/11 (when will the Americans get over themselves and learn how to use dates correctly?) as an emergency was managed pretty darned well, considering the losses to fire and other service workers in the collapses, and the fact that the New York City emergency management centre was in one of the World Trade Centre towers! The "issue" with 9/11 was "Why didn't somebody in authority let us know this was going to happen?" The repercussions of this resulted in the establishment of the Office for Homeland Security, the invasion of Iraq (for as we all know, Saddam Hussain was to blame) and other massive over-reactions from a nation of redneck, gun-toting, bible-banging, xenophobes. Sigh.


i think thats pretty harsh Hitcher..you are tarring us all with the same brush.. i own guns ( multiple.. some Mil-Spec).. i drive pickups and Harley's..i am an avowed Pagan/ agnostic and i have been around the world more than most people have been to the movies..

your basic John Smith , Main st. USA is a hard working, open minded, compassionate, moral person.. there are a few bad eggs and besause of the entertainment industry, we are painted as shalllow, egotistical assholes..

go to Cincinatti Ohio, St. Louis Mo, Phoenix Arizona, Richmond Indiana.. meet the people..then tell me your opinion.. i always guessed you as an open minded, caring person.. please tell me you are just having a bad day..

[manuboy]

Jesus people, there are some heavy posts in here....

Surely in any disaster there are some Dick and Thoms, some "you and me's" and some "just like us" types that deserve a little sympathy regardless of they live?

I read this thread and all i see is assorted dudes with assorted baggage ready to fly air "kiwi biker".

Despite your viewpoint on the good 'ol US of A, and despite what you think should happen in terms of relief, spare a thought for those you need it instead of bashing their country!?!

[mstriumph]

not worthy of you, mr hitcher, sir, IMHO :oi-grr:
9/11 (when will the Americans get over themselves and learn how to use dates correctly?) as an emergency was managed pretty darned well, considering the losses to fire and other service workers in the collapses, and the fact that the New York City emergency management centre was in one of the World Trade Centre towers! The "issue" with 9/11 was "Why didn't somebody in authority let us know this was going to happen?" The repercussions of this resulted in the establishment of the Office for Homeland Security, the invasion of Iraq (for as we all know, Saddam Hussain was to blame) and other massive over-reactions from a nation of redneck, gun-toting, bible-banging, xenophobes. Sigh.

[Hitcher]

go to Cincinatti Ohio, St. Louis Mo, Phoenix Arizona, Richmond Indiana.. meet the people..then tell me your opinion.. i always guessed you as an open minded, caring person.. please tell me you are just having a bad day..
No question, Sarge. My comments were addressed at the current elected leaders of the land of the free and the home of the brave who have been individually and collectively responsible for some of the USA's least finest moments. As a generalisation, when I generalise I am quite likely taking the piss. Maybe smilies could help, but they're against my religion...

[MikeL]

It seems to me that references to "red-neck, gun-toting, bible-banging xenophobes" (however much truth there may be in a stereotype) miss the point. The damage caused by the fiasco following Katrina will have enormous political consequences. Internationally, the credibility and respectability of a nation taking the high moral ground on many issues is being severely dented, as people see that the enormous resources at the disposal of the world's richest and most powerful nation can be deployed in foreign military adventures but not, apparently, to save its own people. Domestically, both the delayed response by authorities and the rapid breakdown of law and order have exposed the vast inequalities in American society. Read the coverage in today's Herald for an enlightening perspective on the situation, particularly the questions being raised about the issues of race and poverty. Can anyone doubt that if the hurricane had hit Florida, Virginia or NY the response would have been different?

[Lou Girardin]

The danger of the levees bursting around New Orleans has been known for years. Funds were allocated to restore wetlands to act as a buffer for storm surges. Bush and his cronies cut funding for this in order to free funds for "Homeland Security" and the Iraq invasion. No flood protection was funded unless it was tied to land developement.
So while the city was drowning due to his criminal negligence, Bush didn't even cut his holiday short to go and see what was happening.

[Ixion]

i think thats pretty harsh Hitcher..you are tarring us all with the same brush.. i own guns ( multiple.. some Mil-Spec).. i drive pickups and Harley's..i am an avowed Pagan/ agnostic and i have been around the world more than most people have been to the movies..

your basic John Smith , Main st. USA is a hard working, open minded, compassionate, moral person.. there are a few bad eggs and besause of the entertainment industry, we are painted as shalllow, egotistical assholes..

go to Cincinatti Ohio, St. Louis Mo, Phoenix Arizona, Richmond Indiana.. meet the people..then tell me your opinion.. i always guessed you as an open minded, caring person.. please tell me you are just having a bad day..

Sacramento, California is a nice place. Nice friendly "ordinary" people. Ended up there by accident (just wanted to ride a train to somewhere), it was very pleasant after San Francisco. Ended up having a long social (repeat social) chat with the Sheriff (yeah, he did have a star, just like in the Lone Ranger. Quite a buzz, I always thought sheriffs were sort of fictional. And a honking big gun too ). He was in the coffee shop. Really nice guy.

I think USAians are better outside the big metropolises, maybe

[Paul in NZ]

Mostly every American I have ever met has been a pretty decent sort.

I worked in Dalls for a few weeks with a wide variety of folks and since we needed some muscle, hired 2 'labour units' from a contractor. These lads were from deepest, Kentucky.. They were a little different... They honestly had no idea about anything that was not located within a 100 mile radius of home. After a few weeks they just up and left in the night! Odd!

However I digress....

In NZ our experience with natural disasters is like the floods of the last few years, relatively localised due to our unique geography. A few suburbs get flooded or a town gets hit and we can get in utilities gangs and heavy machinery from the next council over and the effort is underway!

Imagine if Auckland got hit. No next town, nowhere near enough resources, no power, no nothing and everything had to get airlifted in from Wellington? We just could not do it, no bridges, no airfields, ships take a couple of days and no container handling facilities...

The more sophisticated we get the more vunerable we are to disaster when the power goes off... Exactly the same thing could have happened here because just as the Americns have reduced spending on 'non essentials', our own organisations such as Civil Defence are under strength and finding it harder and harder to attract volunteers.

Like the USA, most cities in NZ have large 'poorer' populations with reduced options and these populations are DRAMATICALLY under represented in these very organisations.

Seriously, what do you think would happen in Porrirua / Otara if something similar occured (not being racist at all, these people just don't have the options)... I know a few good people (church / community leaders etc) would step up but... The gangs would also look after their own interests and people, wouldn't you?

There is an old saying. No country is any more than 3 meals away from a revolution. I think this proves it.

Yes, you can blame Bush all you want but ask yourself if we would be any better prepared? Since the reforms of the 80's, most countries have not spent enough on proper civil infrastructure as it does not win elections!

Paul N

PS - Please remember that a lot of people died.... RIP folks. We all should have done a little better...

[Wolf]

There is an old saying. No country is any more than 3 meals away from a revolution.
Always thought it was "3 meals away from barbarism". Quoted that myself today - after seeing in the news about those people looting to get food. In an emergency a certain subset of the community goes out and loots shops of TVs, stereos etc. I can't understand such people and most places instruct their police/armed forces to shoot on sight in such cases. But in New Orleans there are people having to loot stores to find something edible - those people I can understand.

[SARGE]

Always thought it was "3 meals away from barbarism". Quoted that myself today - after seeing in the news about those people looting to get food. In an emergency a certain subset of the community goes out and loots shops of TVs, stereos etc. I can't understand such people and most places instruct their police/armed forces to shoot on sight in such cases. But in New Orleans there are people having to loot stores to find something edible - those people I can understand.


i can totally understand looting for survival, but the barbarism that is happening in N/O right now is beyond me.. that is not the USA i grew up in.. the people back then/there would lay themselves down to help a neighbor or even a stranger.. these fucktards are going stone-age on us and i for one am gutted at the sights i am seeing...

shoot to kill.. take the bad DNA out of the loop, no hesitation, no remorse

today.. i am almost ashamed of my people

[Waylander]

There was a guy on tv a few minutes ago saying all this is Bush's fault and how he doesn't care about "Black folk" becouse supposedly they african-americans were the ones being arrested and such for looting. Goes back to Wolf's statement, how many of those "Black folk" were stealing TVs and such and how many were stealing food.

If they're stealing food to feed theselfs or thier family, by all means go for it so long as you're not stealing from someone who truely needs it more. But if you're stealing TVs and stuff like that your ass goes to jail.

[Hitcher]

Imagine if Auckland got hit.
Which Party is promising that? I may well vote for them...

[Timber020]

If you check that stats on "US generosity" you will find its one of the least given nation in the western work for its GNP. And its people give the least per capita to disasters overseas.

Yanks are great people, and the US is a great country, but its not a fish in the global fishtank that gives anywhere near what it takes.

[Pixie]

Errr hitcher - doesn't that smack a litle of "You're different - therefore wrong?

Sure NZ date format isn't Month Day, and admittedly not many other countries are either (none that I can think of), but it's only different... not wrong.

What's the correct way to spell "color" (or is it "colour")... etc.


Month/day is American,therefore wrong :devil2:
Color is American,therefore wrong ( colour is old French WTF,we should refer to hue) :devil2:
Most American spellings are archaic english spellings ( ie aluminum) or Ben Franklin's attempt to rationalise English.The American English of today is truer to the English of the 16th century,than the English we use.I bet that's a shock to the Anti American "traditionalists".

[Pixie]

The danger of the levees bursting around New Orleans has been known for years. Funds were allocated to restore wetlands to act as a buffer for storm surges. Bush and his cronies cut funding for this in order to free funds for "Homeland Security" and the Iraq invasion. No flood protection was funded unless it was tied to land developement.
So while the city was drowning due to his criminal negligence, Bush didn't even cut his holiday short to go and see what was happening.
Why should he ?All the Republican voters had already evacuated.Democracy in action :devil2:
BTW Clark offered NZ's assistance,Bush was unable to move for several hours,after falling down laughing :rofl:

[SARGE]

An Unnatural Disaster: A Hurricane Exposes the Man-Made Disaster of the Welfare State

by Robert Tracinski
Sep 02, 2005
by Robert Tracinski
It took four long days for state and federal officials to figure out how to deal with the disaster in New Orleans. I can't blame them, because it also took me four long days to figure out what was going on there. The reason is that the events there make no sense if you think that we are confronting a natural disaster.

If this is just a natural disaster, the response for public officials is obvious: you bring in food, water, and doctors; you send transportation to evacuate refugees to temporary shelters; you send engineers to stop the flooding and rebuild the city's infrastructure. For journalists, natural disasters also have a familiar pattern: the heroism of ordinary people pulling together to survive; the hard work and dedication of doctors, nurses, and rescue workers; the steps being taken to clean up and rebuild.

Public officials did not expect that the first thing they would have to do is to send thousands of armed troops in armored vehicle, as if they are suppressing an enemy insurgency. And journalists—myself included—did not expect that the story would not be about rain, wind, and flooding, but about rape, murder, and looting.

But this is not a natural disaster. It is a man-made disaster.

The man-made disaster is not an inadequate or incompetent response by federal relief agencies, and it was not directly caused by Hurricane Katrina. This is where just about every newspaper and television channel has gotten the story wrong.

The man-made disaster we are now witnessing in New Orleans did not happen over four days last week. It happened over the past four decades. Hurricane Katrina merely exposed it to public view.

The man-made disaster is the welfare state.

For the past few days, I have found the news from New Orleans to be confusing. People were not behaving as you would expect them to behave in an emergency—indeed, they were not behaving as they have behaved in other emergencies. That is what has shocked so many people: they have been saying that this is not what we expect from America. In fact, it is not even what we expect from a Third World country.

When confronted with a disaster, people usually rise to the occasion. They work together to rescue people in danger, and they spontaneously organize to keep order and solve problems. This is especially true in America. We are an enterprising people, used to relying on our own initiative rather than waiting around for the government to take care of us. I have seen this a hundred times, in small examples (a small town whose main traffic light had gone out, causing ordinary citizens to get out of their cars and serve as impromptu traffic cops, directing cars through the intersection) and large ones (the spontaneous response of New Yorkers to September 11).

So what explains the chaos in New Orleans?

To give you an idea of the magnitude of what is going on, here is a description from a Washington Times story:

"Storm victims are raped and beaten; fights erupt with flying fists, knives and guns; fires are breaking out; corpses litter the streets; and police and rescue helicopters are repeatedly fired on.

"The plea from Mayor C. Ray Nagin came even as National Guardsmen poured in to restore order and stop the looting, carjackings and gunfire....

"Last night, Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco said 300 Iraq-hardened Arkansas National Guard members were inside New Orleans with shoot-to-kill orders.

" 'These troops are...under my orders to restore order in the streets,' she said. 'They have M-16s, and they are locked and loaded. These troops know how to shoot and kill and they are more than willing to do so if necessary and I expect they will.' "

The reference to Iraq is eerie. The photo that accompanies this article shows a SWAT team with rifles and armored vests riding on an armored vehicle through trash-strewn streets lined by a rabble of squalid, listless people, one of whom appears to be yelling at them. It looks exactly like a scene from Sadr City in Baghdad.

What explains bands of thugs using a natural disaster as an excuse for an orgy of looting, armed robbery, and rape? What causes unruly mobs to storm the very buses that have arrived to evacuate them, causing the drivers to speed away, frightened for their lives? What causes people to attack the doctors trying to treat patients at the Superdome?

Why are people responding to natural destruction by causing further destruction? Why are they attacking the people who are trying to help them?

My wife, Sherri, figured it out first, and she figured it out on a sense-of-life level. While watching the coverage one night on Fox News Channel, she told me that she was getting a familiar feeling. She studied architecture at the Illinois Institute of Chicago, which is located in the South Side of Chicago just blocks away from the Robert Taylor Homes, one of the largest high-rise public housing projects in America. "The projects," as they were known, were infamous for uncontrollable crime and irremediable squalor. (They have since, mercifully, been demolished.)

What Sherri was getting from last night's television coverage was a whiff of the sense of life of "the projects." Then the "crawl"—the informational phrases flashed at the bottom of the screen on most news channels—gave some vital statistics to confirm this sense: 75% of the residents of New Orleans had already evacuated before the hurricane, and of those who remained, a large number were from the city's public housing projects. Jack Wakeland then told me that early reports from CNN and Fox indicated that the city had no plan for evacuating all of the prisoners in the city's jails—so they just let many of them loose. [Update: I have been searching for news reports on this last story, but I have not been able to confirm it. Instead, I have found numerous reports about the collapse of the corrupt and incompetent New Orleans Police Department; see here and here.]

There is no doubt a significant overlap between these two populations--that is, a large number of people in the jails used to live in the housing projects, and vice versa.

There were many decent, innocent people trapped in New Orleans when the deluge hit—but they were trapped alongside large numbers of people from two groups: criminals—and wards of the welfare state, people selected, over decades, for their lack of initiative and self-induced helplessness. The welfare wards were a mass of sheep—on whom the incompetent administration of New Orleans unleashed a pack of wolves.

All of this is related, incidentally, to the incompetence of the city government, which failed to plan for a total evacuation of the city, despite the knowledge that this might be necessary. In a city corrupted by the welfare state, the job of city officials is to ensure the flow of handouts to welfare recipients and patronage to political supporters—not to ensure a lawful, orderly evacuation in case of emergency.

No one has really reported this story, as far as I can tell. In fact, some are already actively distorting it, blaming President Bush, for example, for failing to personally ensure that the Mayor of New Orleans had drafted an adequate evacuation plan. The worst example is an execrable piece from the Toronto Globe and Mail, by a supercilious Canadian who blames the chaos on American "individualism." But the truth is precisely the opposite: the chaos was caused by a system that was the exact opposite of individualism.

What Hurricane Katrina exposed was the psychological consequences of the welfare state. What we consider "normal" behavior in an emergency is behavior that is normal for people who have values and take the responsibility to pursue and protect them. People with values respond to a disaster by fighting against it and doing whatever it takes to overcome the difficulties they face. They don't sit around and complain that the government hasn't taken care of them. And they don't use the chaos of a disaster as an opportunity to prey on their fellow men.

But what about criminals and welfare parasites? Do they worry about saving their houses and property? They don't, because they don't own anything. Do they worry about what is going to happen to their businesses or how they are going to make a living? They never worried about those things before. Do they worry about crime and looting? But living off of stolen wealth is a way of life for them.

People living in piles of their own trash, while petulantly complaining that other people aren't doing enough to take care of them and then shooting at those who come to rescue them—this is not just a description of the chaos at the Superdome. It is a perfect summary of the 40-year history of the welfare state and its public housing projects.

The welfare state—and the brutish, uncivilized mentality it sustains and encourages—is the man-made disaster that explains the moral ugliness that has swamped New Orleans. And that is the story that no one is reporting.

Source: TIA Daily -- September 2, 2005

[Lou Girardin]

There were two very similar photos published in US papers:
The first was of two blacks with bags of food taken from shops, it was described as looted goods.
The second was of two white people doing the same thing, it was described as bread they had found.
No racism?

BTW Sarge, if you think that the welfare state leads to brutish, uncivilised behaviour.
study 19th century laissez-faire capitalism.
The countries with proper welfare states are the most civilised in the world and used to include NZ.

[ManDownUnder]

There were two very similar photos published in US papers:
The first was of two blacks with bags of food taken from shops, it was described as looted goods.
The second was of two white people doing the same thing, it was described as bread they had found.
No racism?

BTW Sarge, if you think that the welfare state leads to brutish, uncivilised behaviour.
study 19th century laissez-faire capitalism.
The countries with proper welfare states are the most civilised in the world and used to include NZ.

1) dude - that's hearsay
2) It appeared in a paper... so it's hearsay with intent to sell papers.

I do take your point, and it's an interesting one, but I say let's keep 'em alive first - then worry about the ills of a civilised society

[MikeL]

Well, well... the breakdown of law and order, the collapse into chaos after a natural disaster is all due to the welfare state. Obviously. Without the public housing, without the food vouchers and the unemployment cheques these people would have died of disease or malnutrition long ago. You have only yourselves to blame, Americans, for being so generous to your underprivileged.

[Waylander]

Well, well... the breakdown of law and order, the collapse into chaos after a natural disaster is all due to the welfare state. Obviously. Without the public housing, without the food vouchers and the unemployment cheques these people would have died of disease or malnutrition long ago. You have only yourselves to blame, Americans, for being so generous to your underprivileged.
Examine your own.

[Lou Girardin]

We need a smilie for sarcasm.

[James Deuce]

Why should he ?All the Republican voters had already evacuated.Democracy in action :devil2:
BTW Clark offered NZ's assistance,Bush was unable to move for several hours,after falling down laughing :rofl:

That's not as stupid as it sounds. A NZ relief or rcovery team would certainly save lives and get experience in a mammoth disaster first hand. Everyone benefits.

Anyone who turns down aid offered like that is a bigger fucktard than you are making Helen CLark out to be.

[James Deuce]

We need a smilie for sarcasm.

We could call it "Lou".

[ManDownUnder]

We need a smilie for sarcasm.

no Lou - YOU need a smilie for sarcasm!

... bugger so do I now...

[James Deuce]

Examine your own.

It's like a mental block or something , isn't it? I think a sarcasm smilie would still be wasted on the sarcasm impaired.

[mstriumph]

.... and he's right too.... bet not many people know that :ride:
Month/day is American,therefore wrong :devil2:
Color is American,therefore wrong ( colour is old French WTF,we should refer to hue) :devil2:
Most American spellings are archaic english spellings ( ie aluminum) or Ben Franklin's attempt to rationalise English.The American English of today is truer to the English of the 16th century,than the English we use.I bet that's a shock to the Anti American "traditionalists".

[SARGE]

BTW Sarge, if you think that the welfare state leads to brutish, uncivilised behaviour.
study 19th century laissez-faire capitalism.
The countries with proper welfare states are the most civilised in the world and used to include NZ.


i have no worries with a welfare state at all.. FOR THOSE WHO CANNOT WORK DUE TO HEALTH OR DISABILITY.. those people need our help and we owe it to them..

those capable of doing anything to earn even a meger living should be put to work.. suppliment thier income to bring them to a certain standard if need be but make them get out of bed and go to work..

when my family is starving.. stuff pride.. give me that toilet brush..

these fuckers (all over the world) that think that the world owes them a living and can sit on thier asses cuz they dont feel like doing an honest days work can just fucking starve.. save some air for someone productive

[ManDownUnder]

Month/day is American,therefore wrong :devil2:
Color is American,therefore wrong ( colour is old French WTF,we should refer to hue) :devil2:
Most American spellings are archaic english spellings ( ie aluminum) or Ben Franklin's attempt to rationalise English.The American English of today is truer to the English of the 16th century,than the English we use.I bet that's a shock to the Anti American "traditionalists".

How funny - I didn't know that (excepting the "Aluminum" bit... that stuff wasn't discovered till 1808 and I think the language wasn't exactly archaic at that point...

As a bit of a strange thought... how about we enjoy our differences instead of slapping each other with them> I love the 'mericans - they're mad... and I believe they have grounds to say the same of me...

All good then! - Now... let's go drink!
MDU

[ManDownUnder]

when my family is starving.. stuff pride.. give me that toilet brush..

Bling for that one chap. I'll never (EVER) be out of work for that reason alone... if I can't get what I want... I change what I want.

[Lou Girardin]

We could call it "Lou".


OK. How do you create smilies?

[Motu]

those capable of doing anything to earn even a meger living should be put to work.. suppliment thier income to bring them to a certain standard if need be but make them get out of bed and go to work..


We used to do that here....those on the dole got to work in parks,for the councils etc,those involved...and I knew quite a few (all my mates and rellies) enjoyed the work and got satisfaction from seeing something like say a sea wall they built being used by people.But then the PC crap moved in and if some guy damaged his big toe with a shovel - and he hadn't been trained by his supervisor in how to use a shovel correctly,then the Council was sued for a million dollars for loss of enjoyment of life etc,etc,etc.So it got killed by OSH regulations,like...we can't have people using shovels and picks if they haven't been trained in the proper use of said articles and hazzard awareness y'know....

[Wolf]

We used to do that here....those on the dole got to work in parks,for the councils etc,those involved...and I knew quite a few (all my mates and rellies) enjoyed the work and got satisfaction from seeing something like say a sea wall they built being used by people.But then the PC crap moved in and if some guy damaged his big toe with a shovel - and he hadn't been trained by his supervisor in how to use a shovel correctly,then the Council was sued for a million dollars for loss of enjoyment of life etc,etc,etc.So it got killed by OSH regulations,like...we can't have people using shovels and picks if they haven't been trained in the proper use of said articles and hazzard awareness y'know....
They'd have to be sent on an NZQA-accredited "Using a Shovel" course first.

I've done my stint weilding the shovel, mattock, wheelbarrow (and mixing concrete in a barrow because we were only a PEP gang and not worthy of a real mixer), slasher, and the concrete pavers - after all, I was on their books as a Computer Programmer so of course I got put on scrub-cutting and paving gangs.

[myvice]

I couldn’t list all the shitty jobs Iv had to do to earn a buck...
Back to the states thing...

Its not the devastation that saddens me as much as the total break down of society, I would like to think that most would help there neighbours in a crises like this but as the storeys come out of the affected areas it appears that this is not the case.
Dogs are only 2 meals away from wolves; people aren’t that different it seams.

Its should have been the White House it hit, might have signed the Kyoto Protocol then maybe? Always seems to be the little guy who suffers for the greed of the few who are deemed to be the ones in control but do little more than feather there own nest as the people who put them in that position (usually due to a lack of options) starve! (Rant Rant!)

I hope NZ can help out, we seem to be the best at it!

[Hitcher]

They'd have to be sent on an NZQA-accredited "Using a Shovel" course first.
And be unionised, paid a minimum wage, double-time on Sundays, receive a dirt allowance, wet weather allowance, wind allowance, sun allowance, blister allowance...

[SARGE]

We used to do that here....those on the dole got to work in parks,for the councils etc,those involved...and I knew quite a few (all my mates and rellies) enjoyed the work and got satisfaction from seeing something like say a sea wall they built being used by people.But then the PC crap moved in and if some guy damaged his big toe with a shovel - and he hadn't been trained by his supervisor in how to use a shovel correctly,then the Council was sued for a million dollars for loss of enjoyment of life etc,etc,etc.So it got killed by OSH regulations,like...we can't have people using shovels and picks if they haven't been trained in the proper use of said articles and hazzard awareness y'know....


back in the mid-late 1930's President Truman enacted a set of programs called the "new deal".. he had post depression americans working to build national parks, cleaning the streets, laying railroad tracks, building roads etc.. nothing glamorous but good clean honest work.. something a man could feel good about achieving at the end of the day. it gave my country a purpose.. a reason to get out of bed each morning.. and the pride to feel like a contributing member of society..
maybe we need to go back into that .. get all the able-bodied welfare recipients in Louisiana etc to build bigass dykes around New Orleans and clean that shitpile up..

"but my back hurts.."

(BANG!!)

"anyone elses back hurt?"

[Ixion]

back in the mid-late 1930's President Truman enacted a set of programs called the "new deal".. .."

Wasn't that Roosevelt ?

[MikeL]

Wasn't that Roosevelt ?

FDR - rightly considered one of the great presidents in US history...

[Motu]

back in the mid-late 1930's President Truman enacted a set of programs called the "new deal".. he had post depression americans working to build national parks, cleaning the streets, laying railroad tracks, building roads etc.. nothing glamorous but good clean honest work.. something a man could feel good about achieving at the end of the day. it gave my country a purpose.. a reason to get out of bed each morning.. and the pride to feel like a contributing member of society..
maybe we need to go back into that .. get all the able-bodied welfare recipients in Louisiana etc to build bigass dykes around New Orleans and clean that shitpile up..

"but my back hurts.."

(BANG!!)

"anyone elses back hurt?"


One of my grandfathers planted Kaiangaroa Forest in the Depression - not by himself,but with hundreds of other out of work men like himself who left their families to live in terrible conditions and made the largest man made forest in the world.It was work,and I guess he had some coins to send back home.

[Teflon]

If the Yellowstone volcano erupts over there within the next 2 years, i'm moving to China.

I have a feeling that this hurricane is only the beginning..

[Fart]

Bush family on holiday.