Ethics (animal) and shit.

[Akzle]

i dont know how many care about this (obviously not enough, or the jews wouldnt do it) but i'm'a compile a list of 'ethical' companies. And shit.
Nau, theres levels of ethical.
Ie, until my next chooks come on the lay, i buy 'barn eggs -free to roam scratch and perch', they 2 buck cheaper than free range, and i reckon ethical enough.
I will not buy imported pork, or any 'fresh' produce from the us (google us pork shit, its sick. Fuken jew sick).
Similarly, chinas unregulated agricultureconomoney gets a wide berth.
Right nau, omak meat gets the tick across the board (only by word of mouth), being a shop. Farmers and growers markets are good for people who care.
but, i will be contacting everywhere that sells produce and sticking it up here for anyone that gives a fuck.

[george formby]

i dont know how many care about this (obviously not enough, or the jews wouldnt do it) but i'm'a compile a list of 'ethical' companies. And shit.
Nau, theres levels of ethical.
Ie, until my next chooks come on the lay, i buy 'barn eggs -free to roam scratch and perch', they 2 buck cheaper than free range, and i reckon ethical enough.
I will not buy imported pork, or any 'fresh' produce from the us (google us pork shit, its sick. Fuken jew sick).
Similarly, chinas unregulated agricultureconomoney gets a wide berth.
Right nau, omak meat gets the tick across the board (only by word of mouth), being a shop. Farmers and growers markets are good for people who care.
but, i will be contacting everywhere that sells produce and sticking it up here for anyone that gives a fuck.

I know the proprietor of Omaks, bloody good bloke. Dealt with him 15 years now.

Both the butchers here in Kawakawa do a good job, as does Macs at Moerewa, straight from the meat works.
Some of the local growers up here, er, market gardeners, will make your ears bleed talking about moon phase, chook shit and that bloke Steiner or some such. They do have prodigious vegetables I must admit. There is a huuuuuge sign on the overtaking lane north of Moerewa advertising raw milk. Must get the number. Mahoe farmhouse cheeses are great, too. Homeopathic treated, massaged & fondled Jersey herd. Also last years #1 cheesemaker. Well done that lad.

[Fastmark]

Well I for one give a fuck
Barn eggs as you say is ethical enough, free range if I feeling flush
Chicken must be free range. I've been to many factory farms and it will put you off for life
Lamb, beef etc. I think until told otherwise are OK, although I do buy locally produced whenever possible

And lets not forget the vegetables, I like to think I buy ethically there to, no un-necessary cruelty.

Would be interested to see how your list progresses.

[george formby]

We have happy chicken eggs, spoilt rotten chickens actually. Come from a couple in Russell, they drop off a dozen a week for us. They are just going off the lay about now.
Thinkin of getting some goats to keep my weeds under control & I do love a goat curry. Just a bit concerned the dog might like goat, too.

[Grashopper]

In Taupo get "Taupo Beef" (several restaurants offer it and the butcher at the Spa Rd roundabout)

They are currently running it as a trial here. The beef is produced in a manner that protects the Lake Taupo's water quality. It is grass fed and free-range, and tastes great.

For more info http://agriculturalemissions.blogspot.co.nz/2011/12/taupo-beef-story.html

[RDJ]

i dont know how many care about this (obviously not enough, or the jews wouldnt do it) but i'm'a compile a list of 'ethical' companies. And shit.
Nau, theres levels of ethical.
Ie, until my next chooks come on the lay, i buy 'barn eggs -free to roam scratch and perch', they 2 buck cheaper than free range, and i reckon ethical enough.
I will not buy imported pork, or any 'fresh' produce from the us (google us pork shit, its sick. Fuken jew sick).
Similarly, chinas unregulated agricultureconomoney gets a wide berth.
Right nau, omak meat gets the tick across the board (only by word of mouth), being a shop. Farmers and growers markets are good for people who care.


Levels of ethics? How does that work? If you're saying e.g. animals must not be bred and killed for food or warehoused to supply food then... it makes no ethical difference if the animals are given 5-star treatment throughout their lives and then killed humanely without any fear or pain. Now if you were to argue that there is a moral principle not to encourage unnecessary cruelty, I would agree with you; but ethics do not come in layers.

[Akzle]

If you're saying e.g. animals must not be bred and killed for food or warehoused to supply food
im only saying half of that. Youre adding a lot between the lines.

Now if you were to argue that there is a moral principle not to encourage unnecessary cruelty, I would agree with you; but ethics do not come in layers.

yes. Level of ethics.
Im happy with my post at the top of the food chain.
I do not differentiate between plant life and animal life. It is all life. I am part of all life (have you given up with the hippy shit yet)
i can, do and will kill other things, for my benefit. That is my life.

[slowpoke]

Levels of ethics? How does that work? If you're saying e.g. animals must not be bred and killed for food or warehoused to supply food then... it makes no ethical difference if the animals are given 5-star treatment throughout their lives and then killed humanely without any fear or pain. Now if you were to argue that there is a moral principle not to encourage unnecessary cruelty, I would agree with you; but ethics do not come in layers.

If that's seriously your thinking then my typing is as wasted as the oxygen you are breathing: that is one seriously fucked up attitude. What you are saying is there is absolutely no difference between the Japanese who worked/starved/beat/tortured prisoners to death on the Thai-Burma Railway and the Allied soldiers who did what they had to do on the field of battle. I'd love to see you walk into an RSA and espouse that theory. Better still I'd love to see someone with your attitude treated in as casual a fashion as you would other people, I mean they're gonna die anyway right? So one can only hope you are treated to the "life" your attitude deserves.

Simple theory for life: to be worthy of respect you need to be respectful yourself.

But as you are obviously not the least bit respectful: welcome to the land of "ignore".

[bogan]

If that's seriously your thinking then my typing is as wasted as the oxygen you are breathing: that is one seriously fucked up attitude. What you are saying is there is absolutely no difference between the Japanese who worked/starved/beat/tortured prisoners to death on the Thai-Burma Railway and the Allied soldiers who did what they had to do on the field of battle. I'd love to see you walk into an RSA and espouse that theory. Better still I'd love to see someone with your attitude treated in as casual a fashion as you would other people, I mean they're gonna die anyway right? So one can only hope you are treated to the "life" your attitude deserves.

Simple theory for life: to be worthy of respect you need to be respectful yourself.

But as you are obviously not the least bit respectful: welcome to the land of "ignore".

The way I read it, he went all grammar nazi on the ethics/morality definition; as some would say what the OP is discussing is about the morality of the food production, not the ethics of it. Though I don't see the need for that level of nitpickery cos both words mean the same fucking thing in common useage.

[RDJ]

If that's seriously your thinking then my typing is as wasted as the oxygen you are breathing: that is one seriously fucked up attitude. What you are saying is there is absolutely no difference between the Japanese who worked/starved/beat/tortured prisoners to death on the Thai-Burma Railway and the Allied soldiers who did what they had to do on the field of battle. I'd love to see you walk into an RSA and espouse that theory. Better still I'd love to see someone with your attitude treated in as casual a fashion as you would other people, I mean they're gonna die anyway right? So one can only hope you are treated to the "life" your attitude deserves.

Simple theory for life: to be worthy of respect you need to be respectful yourself.

But as you are obviously not the least bit respectful: welcome to the land of "ignore".

Wow. What you're saying I'm saying is not what I'm saying - you clearly overlook any difference between animals and humans... Best I am on your ignore list.

[RDJ]

The way I read it, he went all grammar nazi on the ethics/morality definition; as some would say what the OP is discussing is about the morality of the food production, not the ethics of it. Though I don't see the need for that level of nitpickery cos both words mean the same fucking thing in common useage.

Hmmm. IMO to discuss the concept of ethics it's best to understand what the word means. The reason our language offers different words to describe the concepts of ethics and morality is because they are, well, different concepts...

[Tazz]

You can get raw milk in Tua Marina here, bring your own bottle and charged by how much you take or $2-ish for a 2L glass (reusable ;)) one from them. They are doing yoghurt soon (thank fawk! that bio farm stuff is the only one without sugar but is expensive as here in Picton)

Saw something a few years ago on Harris Meats in Cheviot, they don't even truck their beef if possible (they believe it stresses them/is so traumatic it affects the meat for good). Was a good watch actually.

Barn hens and free range are (apparently) worse off psychologically than battery hens (in large commercial operations). It turns out that they pick on each other as well as us picking on em. Who woulda thunk :lol:
Not saying to buy battery, but if it is something you are worried about small free range farm eggs are what you should be buying.

Also something I thought was cool (but haven't seen around in a while) was a chart showing the availability of different species of fish in supermarkets. It also accounted for bycatch rather than just abundance (or lack of).

I just buy frozen veggies (sister is a food science freak and said if you don't grow em, frozen is the way to go) but have never looked into the spray side of them (although I know they mint the crap peas that possibly wouldn't otherwise make the grade so stay away from those). But that is more a health thing than ethical, same with the milk.

[Akzle]

Hmmm. IMO to discuss the concept of ethics it's best to understand what the word means. The reason our language offers different words to describe the concepts of ethics and morality is because they are, well, different concepts...

as much as i love debating semantics, and i do, :

ethics [ eth-iks ] plural noun
1. a system of moral principles: the
ethics of a culture.
2. the rules of conduct recognized in
respect to a particular class of human
actions or a particular group, culture, etc.: medical ethics; Christian ethics.
3. moral principles, as of an individual:
His ethics forbade betrayal of a
confidnce.

morality [ muh-ral-i-tee, maw- ] noun [plural mo·ral·i·ties]
1. conformity to the rules of right
conduct; moral or virtuous conduct. 2. moral quality or character. 3. virtue in sexual matters; chastity.

For all but the most pedantic discussion, 'ethics' encompases morality.

[slofox]

I don't to buy cage eggs. Barn eggs or free range only.

I don't buy imported product if there is a locally produced alternative available.

's about it really. I think.

[Flip]

I worked in the gas industry and supplied fuel to the battery chicken industry. Now days I wont buy anything but free range eggs. I also prefer to know where the eggs come from and not get them from the supermarket.

I grew up on a dairy farm and I worked in the diary support industry and I think that about 2/3rds of corporate dairy farms are cow concentration camps. Additionally 9/10ths of them are polluting bastards who are living and operating like they live in the industrial revolution.

I grew up on raw milk, saying that I see no problem with pasturing the milk. Its just a heat process to steralise the germs.

I have visited a few barn dairy farms in the US and see no problem keeping stock inside especially when it is hot and or very cold. It also gives the opportunity to collect the effluent and anarobically digest it to make natural gas.

[SMOKEU]

Avoid halal meat. It's a pretty cruel slaughter method in comparison to stunning the animal first before bleeding it out.

[Akzle]

I grew up on raw milk, saying that I see no problem with pasturing the milk. Its just a heat process to steralise the germs.
pasteurisation no, but try finding non homogenised!

(homogenising alters the way your body absorbs the fat particles. Its bad hmkay)


Avoid halal meat. It's a pretty cruel slaughter method in comparison to stunning the animal first before bleeding it out.

many halal in nz stun before cutting. That being the lauw.

That said, a knife in the throat when animal is calm and not expecting it is pretty quick. Done a few myself.
Certainly less traumatic than a deer finding a 303 in its lung.

[SMOKEU]

many halal in nz stun before cutting. That being the lauw.

That said, a knife in the throat when animal is calm and not expecting it is pretty quick. Done a few myself.
Certainly less traumatic than a deer finding a 303 in its lung.

It's not halal if the animal is "stunned" or unconscious at the time of death. It then becomes haraam.

[Akzle]

It's not halal if the animal is "stunned" or unconscious at the time of death. It then becomes haraam.
i appreciate you taking the time to educate yourself about these things, but if you read the legal shit in nz about killing and selling meat. Shit's rendered senseless and sold as halal. Tptbj dont give a fuck.

[Ocean1]

I grew up on raw milk, saying that I see no problem with pasturing the milk. Its just a heat process to steralise the germs.


When I grew up there was just milk. The only refining was to get cream, which you had to get in early, before the sparrows got at it.

Now you can get a dozen different marketing labels for the same shit, vaguely white stuff from which most of the milk solids have been removed. It tastes like water. Mostly because that's what it is.

[scumdog]

Have your own free-range chooks

Have a house-cow (if there's room!)

Catch you're own fish

Hunt your own meat

Grow your own vegies.

:niceone::niceone:

[Tazz]

When I grew up there was just milk. The only refining was to get cream, which you had to get in early, before the sparrows got at it.

Now you can get a dozen different marketing labels for the same shit, vaguely white stuff from which most of the milk solids have been removed. It tastes like water. Mostly because that's what it is.

Boom. Awesome sister was also saying the homogenization process reduces the size and changes the shape of the fat molecules, so although they add less fat than is there naturally, it goes straight into the blood/body rather than you just absorbing what you need of the bigger molecules and having the rest pass through.

I vaguely remember something about that yellow top milk (that is supposed to be good for bones?), being really bad for your bones as well :lol:

Rule of thumb, the less processed something is, the better it is for you. This ties in with ethics regarding animals as (awesomely tasty) food sources as well.

On another note, as mammals, why the fark do we drink milk our entire lives?!?! Seems a bit against the natural grain?


Have your own free-range chooks

Have a house-cow (if there's room!)

Catch you're own fish

Hunt your own meat

Grow your own vegies.

:niceone::niceone:

If you've got the time go nuts for sure, otherwise it is tricky being self sufficient.

[scumdog]

That said, a knife in the throat when animal is calm and not expecting it is pretty quick. Done a few myself.
Certainly less traumatic than a deer finding a 303 in its lung.

I find it a bit of a task to catch a deer and cut it's throat.

So the 180grn 308 to the neck will have to do....

[scumdog]

Avoid halal meat. It's a pretty cruel slaughter method in comparison to stunning the animal first before bleeding it out.

ALL the animals at the freezing works are stunned first before their throat is cut.

Mind you, some are more stunned than others...:pinch:

[Scuba_Steve]

Have your own free-range chooks

Have a house-cow (if there's room!)

Catch you're own fish

Hunt your own meat

Grow your own vegies.

:niceone::niceone:

Don't worry your masters are hard at work trying to ban that shit, you know "for your health"...
Give em a few years then u & the other gang members can go beat old ladies with your batons in full riot gear just for having a veggie patch (if you're not retired by then).

[Ocean1]

Mind you, some are more stunned than others...:pinch:

There was one of the less stunned examples running around Kaiti, in Gisborne when I was there once.

Fuck did he make a mess before someone got a 308 close enough to drop him.

[scumdog]

Don't worry your masters are hard at work trying to ban that shit, you know "for your health"...
Give em a few years then u & the other gang members can go beat old ladies with your batons in full riot gear just for having a veggie patch (if you're not retired by then).

Sigh...you're as predictable as the dawn Scoober....<_<

[Scuba_Steve]

Sigh...you're as predictable as the dawn Scoober....<_<

Just doing you a favour, I know how you old people hate change :bleh:

[MisterD]

On another note, as mammals, why the fark do we drink milk our entire lives?!?! Seems a bit against the natural grain?


Sort of. Only us Northern European and some African races, have evolved to continue producing the necessary enzymes to breakdown lactose, into adulthood.

Asians are all lactose intolerant, so it beats me why we sell so much of the stuff to China.

[pete376403]

Have your own free-range chooks

Have a house-cow (if there's room!)

Catch you're own fish

Hunt your own meat

Grow your own vegies.

:niceone::niceone:

got 7 chooks. Council sez were only allowed 6, but two of ours are bantams so I reckon they only count as a half each.
Free range eggs are good, but they (the chooks) play merry hell in the vege garden

[Scuba_Steve]

got 7 chooks. Council sez were only allowed 6, but two of ours are bantams so I reckon they only count as a half each.
Free range eggs are good, but they (the chooks) play merry hell in the vege garden

We only allowed 6 chickens round here? We got a coop supposedly big enough for 40+ chickens, no chickens yet tho, guess I'll have to limit numbers then (well as far as the councils concerned anyways :shifty:)

[ellipsis]

...I'll eat haggis but not tripe...call me what you like but don't call me late for lunch...shove yer pasta in your arse...

[Berries]

...I'll eat haggis but not tripe...call me what you like ..
You're an arse.

Haggis is shit. Shit wrapped up in shit that tastes like shit and gets all the Jocks spouting shit about wee tim'rous beasties >

Still thou art blest, compar'd wi' me
The present only toucheth thee:
But, Och! I backward cast my e'e.
And realise I talk shit and die.

Get me some fresh cow tripe and a bowl of malt vinegar and I'll give you a fucking poem.

[MisterD]

gets all the Jocks spouting shit about wee tim'rous beasties >


Don't be racist about the Porridge Wogs now.

[ellipsis]

You're an arse.

Haggis is shit. Shit wrapped up in shit that tastes like shit and gets all the Jocks spouting shit about wee tim'rous beasties >

Still thou art blest, compar'd wi' me
The present only toucheth thee:
But, Och! I backward cast my e'e.
And realise I talk shit and die.

Get me some fresh cow tripe and a bowl of malt vinegar and I'll give you a fucking poem.



...to elicit such a reply from such an enlightened kb drone, to such a weak and obvious troll on an Akzle thread in such short time is wonderful...if it had been from any other, than one of the real know all fuckwits, it would have been a bit like the 'punk' that made Clint Eastwood's day...but it's from you, closely followed by another...it's really more like anal sex now, you've made my hole weak...dont trip over your shoelaces...:lol:

[Scuba_Steve]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1/q71/s720x720/1958569_597985330272412_1752632407_n.jpg

[george formby]

Don't be racist about the Porridge Wogs now.

Och. I love Haggis! TPTB prohibit the sale of some of the ingredients here. Nae fair.

I was lucky enough to have been given raw milk on a few occasions recently. In comparison, I have no idea how they can put "milk" on the label of the stuff in super markets.

[Tazz]

Asians are all lactose intolerant, so it beats me why we sell so much of the stuff to China.

They're probably just stock piling it so they can sell it back to us at a later date, like everything else <_<


http://chromehorse.typepad.com/.a/6a01127947363b28a4013486461fe6970c-pi

[MisterD]

Och. I love Haggis!

As it happens, so do I, I'm just a Northern Pom with an inherent distrust of people that don't know the different between turnip and swede...


I was lucky enough to have been given raw milk on a few occasions recently. In comparison, I have no idea how they can put "milk" on the label of the stuff in super markets.

If you think that's bad, you should taste the stuff that Fongterror are giving to school kids. My boys won't drink it, and I don't blame them in the slightest.

[bluninja]

As it happens, so do I, I'm just a Northern Pom with an inherent distrust of people that don't know the different between turnip and swede...





The difference is you can fuck a swede and brag about it without being called Baldric :whistle:

[pete376403]

We only allowed 6 chickens round here? We got a coop supposedly big enough for 40+ chickens, no chickens yet tho, guess I'll have to limit numbers then (well as far as the councils concerned anyways :shifty:)

Aparently so. 6 chooks, no roosters.

[Berries]

...to elicit such a reply from such an enlightened kb drone, to such a weak and obvious troll on an Akzle thread in such short time is wonderful...if it had been from any other, than one of the real know all fuckwits, it would have been a bit like the 'punk' that made Clint Eastwood's day...but it's from you, closely followed by another...it's really more like anal sex now, you've made my hole weak...dont trip over your shoelaces...:lol:
You'll have to use smaller words, I don't know whether that was a compliment or you just asked me outside for a fight.

Being English and having lived in and around Aberdeen for many years I have this involuntary twitch that comes on whenever I hear bagpipes or smell haggis. How the fuck I ended up in Dunedin I don't know.

[mstriumph]

i dont know how many care about this (obviously not enough, or the jews wouldnt do it) heartening to hear you are suspending your dislike of a religious group to follow one of their practices ...................................... :laugh: mebbe there's hope for you yet?

but, i will be contacting everywhere that sells produce and sticking it up here for anyone that gives a fuck. judging from the responses here, several fucks already seem to be given ... well done.

Personally, I have my own chooks ... too contented, it seems .... currently I'm giving away at least a coupl'a dozen free range eggs per week.

[Akzle]

heartening to hear you are suspending your dislike of a religious group.

"jews" has NOTHING TO DO with any religious group. Ive been over this before

DID have m'own chooks, now they dead except one. And she dont lay anymre.

[mstriumph]

"jews" has NOTHING TO DO with any religious group. Ive been over this before sorry, I wasn't here then ... do you mean it's a sort of pet name for a bunch of people? same goes for niggers (that you used in another recent post)? ... actually don't see how your current post makes sense if you weren't referring to kosher food? It might be a bit upsetting if people don't know the background.


DID have m'own chooks, now they dead except one. And she dont lay anymre. sorry to hear that - get a lot of pleasure from just watching mine. Glad to hear your remaining one is pensioned off & not eaten ... I couldn't eat any of mine any more than I could eat my dogs; could kill and eat my fink of a neighbour first if I really got that hungry - in fact that might be fun (yes, I think he's aware of that :whocares:)

[george formby]

The difference is you can fuck a swede and brag about it without being called Baldric :whistle:

Tha's a good retort.

[Akzle]

sorry, I wasn't here then ... do you mean it's a sort of pet name for a bunch of people? same goes for niggers (that you used in another recent post)? ... actually don't see how your current post makes sense if you weren't referring to kosher food? It might be a bit upsetting if people don't know the background.

sorry to hear that - get a lot of pleasure from just watching mine. Glad to hear your remaining one is pensioned off & not eaten ... I couldn't eat any of mine any more than I could eat my dogs; could kill and eat my fink of a neighbour first if I really got that hungry - in fact that might be fun (yes, I think he's aware of that :whocares:)

1)nothing is srs. Maybe i should headline my posts with this.
Jews= profiteers, at the expense of others/ things.

2)niggers, as defined by samuel jackson, are ignorant motherfuckers. Anybody from any race can be an ignorant motherfucker.

3)she will get eaten, but ill let her die naturally.
Chookens are neat.

[mstriumph]

ahhh I understand ... same way I use 'ungodly' and 'kaffir' ..........
............ but honestly I prefer 'bankers' for your first term ... from observation it's more accurate and it rhymes sooooooo well with 'wankers' if you are feeling poetic?

nah - bury her ... it'd have to be a hotpot if she's that old - take AGES and still be like chewing leather - and you can take recycling too far :no:
and yes - they are definitely neat

[Akzle]

ahhh I understand ... same way I use 'ungodly' and 'kaffir' ..........
............ but honestly I prefer 'bankers' for your first term ... from observation it's more accurate and it rhymes sooooooo well with 'wankers' if you are feeling poetic?

nah - bury her ... it'd have to be a hotpot if she's that old - take AGES and still be like chewing leather - and you can take recycling too far :no:
and yes - they are definitely neat

but that leaves lawyers, politicians and other generally undesirables unacounted for... jews is easy.

I have dutch oven and do a mean curry. I could probably make boots delicious.

Would compost it, all else fails.

[Brian d marge]

Have your own free-range chooks

Have a house-cow (if there's room!)

Catch you're own fish

Hunt your own meat

Grow your own vegies.

:niceone::niceone:

And dont pay the speeding taxes

Stephen

[avgas]

Gay Chickens and Hybrid Porks I say.

[Akzle]

Gay Chickens and Hybrid Porks I say.

:Oi:
dont turn this into another politics thread!

[avgas]

:Oi:
dont turn this into another politics thread!
How about the Spanish Inquisition?

[Brian d marge]

How about the Spanish Inquisition?

Damn , I didnt expect that !

Stephen

[scumdog]

And dont pay the speeding taxes

Stephen

Avoided them since 1987.

I'ts easy...

[Akzle]

Avoided them since 1987.

I'ts easy...

fuck, i was speeding and stoned the other day. Not one cop. They were all at kamo maccas. Literally five cars.
Then i got drunk and drove home.
I guess the storm is my fault for doing naughty.

[Brian d marge]

Avoided them since 1987.

I'ts easy...

Same
I must have some interest to pay when i get back


Sent from my SC-01F using Tapatalk

[mstriumph]

but that leaves lawyers, politicians and other generally undesirables unacounted for... jews is easy.

............... except for the actual jews ... nice guys some of them (same % as in the rest of the population but DEFINATELY more than in the lawyers, bankers, politicians and child molester demographs?) - you probably even ride with some.

[Akzle]

except for the actual jews ... nice guys some of them (same % as in the rest of the population but DEFINATELY more than in the lawyers, bankers, politicians and child molester demographs?) - you probably even ride with some.

no, those are Jewish people.
(to really bake your noodle, there are also Jewish jews)

jews are a subspecies. Not far above cyclists in the scheme of things.

[Akzle]

still havent done fuckall about this.

Did, find this:
http://sustainable.org.nz/sustainable-business-directory/

[scumdog]

no, those are Jewish people.
(to really bake your noodle, there are also Jewish jews)

jews are a subspecies. Not far above cyclists in the scheme of things.

But both above you, right?;)