Big vs small? (bikes)

[JimmyC]

I'd like to get feedback from other inmates on the theory that learning off road skills on small\light bikes will prep you successfully for heavier ones. ie: how much of what I've learned on something around 130kg's will still be relevant on something 200kg's+? To be clear, I'm talking about 'adventure' riding here, not enduro\trail riding.

Over on the ADVrider forums a rider pointed out that to them, riding a bigger bike (ie: ~200kg's+) off road is that much different, skills transference from a bike handling perspective is a moot point. Since I will be looking for a larger bike come end of year I'm interested to hear what people think about that, especially since you can't test ride bikes off road (technically...).

As examples, the KLR, 660 Tenere, F800GS\A are on my try out list, and all are between 200-230kgs wet.

[Akzle]

forget the bm. Ideally tenere. Klr if you have to.

[george formby]

I ride an obese bike on gravel & a waif. Prior to the waif coming into the fold my learning progress on the TDM was slow, I just did not want to push my limits with so much mass. Technically I knew how to do it, but..

Any hoo. Knowing that if I went a bit awry on the DT, a size 11 boot would fix it I was far more comfortable practising rear wheel steering, down hill braking & steering with the foot rests. It instantly translated to the big bike & put the right thought processes in place. Has improved my enjoyment of the big un no end. It's still a handful when it starts to slide around but I can shift my weight & balance much quicker, I anticipate what is going to happen earlier & I can brake harder. Sometimes it felt unstoppable when I started riding on the gravel, I no longer get that feeling.

So, yeah, na, yeah. Can't agree with the ADV comments. They all has two wheels.

[oneblackflag]

I think manufacturers have lost a lot of their market in recent years to the much taller seat heights.

I doubt it.

[Devil]

I believe it's easier to learn the important base skills on a light bike, cement those skills, which you can then take the big bikes.
I think you can learn the same skills on the big bikes to a point, but I think it's harder and slower and when it goes wrong, it REALLY goes wrong.
From a former R1200GS Adventure owner, currently on an a 690 Enduro R, although I had a 200 EXC and TTR600 before the big beemer.

[clint640]

Wot George said. Bigger bikes are harder to ride offroad but skills learned on small ones will help lots.

Most of the freakishly good big bike riders I know built their skills getting off light bikes & onto enduro race podiums in previous years.

Cheers
Clint

[JimmyC]

Perhaps the odd thing for me having not ridden a larger bike off road (I have ridden them on road), it seems like it should be a smoother experience than my current WR. The gearing in 1st and 2nd on the WR is really high, and whether it’s twitchy fuel injection or not I dunno, keeping a smooth throttle can be tough, especially when tired. It’s a fine line between steady throttle, or throwing yourself back with a bad throttle tweak, or no throttle and rocking forward under engine braking. Bigger bikes have longer pulls in 1st and 2nd, perhaps requiring more clutch at slower speeds, but that translates to more control by my way of thinking.

I also find the light weight of the WR at times almost a downside, as it seems too flickable in some cases. Being less skittish, more planted would seem to be a good thing, the downside being when\if things go wrong on a larger bike, the consequences will likely be more severe. But again, trouble should telegraph itself earlier.

Higher seat height doesn’t bother me really, I’m 6’1” but am used to tip toeing on the WR. I also hate to feel cramped when seated.

[Gremlin]

I think learning the skills on a smaller lighter bike makes more sense, and you don't have the weight and power of the big bikes complicating things.

Current 12GSA owner, but I've never ridden dirt bikes, and first real forays into adventure riding were just before getting the GSA, on a 990 Supermoto, then I opted for a better adventure bike (the GSA). You learn fast that momentum is your friend for most situations, and sand is your mortal enemy...

Depending on what you get, make sure you can physically man-handle it. This doesn't mean you can just get your foot down in the dealer's showroom, but when you've got luggage on and uneven ground with your feet sliding around on the gravel. Oh, and make sure you can pick it up afterwards as well. If you're doing proper adventure riding, then you would likely drop it regularly, or at least, I did <_< I figured if I wasn't dropping it, then it wasn't really enough adventure yet.

You also get a workout controlling it, when you've got it kicking sideways, rear stepped out, and launching rocks at those behind you (the little bikes only throw stones). Feels great though :Punk:

Anyway, the bikes you're considering I would have thought are more mid capacity, but then most don't consider the 12GSA to be an adventure bike. :mellow:

[JimmyC]

Anyway, the bikes you're considering I would have thought are more mid capacity, but then most don't consider the 12GSA to be an adventure bike. :mellow:


You're exactly right. The ADV rider I referenced originally is a 1200GSA rider so maybe that's it. A 1200GSA is almost twice the weight of a WR so it's hardly a beginners bike, yet you've had more experience off road on that than anything before hand. Once you get into that 200-220+ kg category, does an extra 20-30kg's really make any more difference? On the surface it would seem a very fine line between mid capacity and your 12GSA.

[Waihou Thumper]

cement those skills,

Buy that concrete XT600 on Trade Me, that would do it...
For sure! Watch out for Alkali burns though...

[Dave h]

Jimmy have you thought about a 690r as a replacement/addition to your WRR?

[FJRider]

I'd like to get feedback from other inmates on the theory that learning off road skills on small\light bikes will prep you successfully for heavier ones.



If every time you went "Off Road" .. it was the same ... it might help.

But ... (seldom) is it so ...

Experience is something you need ... just before you get it.

Enjoy getting experience. On whatever bike you happen to have ...

[oneblackflag]

Jimmy have you thought about a 690r as a replacement/addition to your WRR?

Im not Jimmy.... But I have it in the back of my mind;)

[Gremlin]

You're exactly right. The ADV rider I referenced originally is a 1200GSA rider so maybe that's it. A 1200GSA is almost twice the weight of a WR so it's hardly a beginners bike, yet you've had more experience off road on that than anything before hand. Once you get into that 200-220+ kg category, does an extra 20-30kg's really make any more difference? On the surface it would seem a very fine line between mid capacity and your 12GSA.
It's not so much weight per se. A full tank of fuel in the 12GSA, and it's holding all that weight up high, plus the weight itself would be 35-40kg. You can actually feel the difference in suspension response (bit sluggish when full and a bit bouncy when empty). Of course, not recommended to have a full tank when tackling rougher stuff, but it's fun grinning at all the other riders as they argue about needing a gas station (150km? Nah, 650km more like it). Your smug grin vanishes when they look at you like vampires :eek5:

Devil is sub 6 foot, had the GSA, but if he needed to back it up, he had to get off, even on a slight slope. The 12GSA is the first bike I've had I can't just back up if I park it into a kerb, so a small learning curve there. I'm 6'3, 100kg (ok, maybe a little more) so wielding the bike is OK, but many simply can't buy/handle one because of it's size, seat height, width etc. It's one of the physically biggest bikes I've come across (except a K1600 and Goldwing I guess) and is also taller than some people :lol: In that sense, the "fine line" may be a line that can't be crossed, but I think from your comments previously, the 8GSA isn't going to be much shorter in the seat height. Still, yes, I think that increase can be a step too far. The 12GSA handles really well when on the move, but stationary, she's a big beast.

Also, the 8GSA et al will come with different tyre sizes. 21" front, what, 19" rear? Pros and cons. I've thought about an 8GSA, but the 12GSA suits me best for the wide variety of demands, and from a single bike. The 8GSA will have better adventure tyre options, the 12GSA has better road tyre options. Depends on use I guess.

I guess I've proven you can go straight into a big bike for adventure riding, but then I've always taken it easy, and never pretended to be great at it, just enjoying travelling the scenic trails/rivers that road bikes wouldn't. Crash bars around the sensitive stuff (even the stock 12GSA bars don't go far enough for the cylinders) and it does give you more piece of mind and allow you to be more adventurous. The more rough stuff is ideally done with a mate, just tell them you want to explore (it should take them a little time to realise you just need another hand to pick it up).

[pampa]

my one cent is small bike helps as long as you try to learn good technique, if you just paddling everywhere then not sure ...
also the question of picking them up is important even if you don't fall often as when you do is likely to be on a difficult place. I personally don't like the idea of needing 2+ people to lift the bike :msn-wink:

[Gremlin]

I personally don't like the idea of needing 2+ people to lift the bike :msn-wink:
First question I'm usually asked on an adventure ride... can you pick that up by yourself?

A: Yeup, regularly tested it. :2thumbsup

A second person does make it easier in certain situations, luggage on, or rocky rivers etc.

[Box'a'bits]

The Boxer motor has in built in levers, so it's already part way up before you start to lift. DAMHIK :pinch: Unlike some lie flat bikes

[That looks like fun]

Sometimes even small (ish) bikes need more than 1 person to lift them :cool:

[GSers]

How you going Mate????????? Thought you where not supposed to be at computers.
Hows the recovery going??????

GSers

[Night Falcon]

If you cant control a small bike off road your gonna struggle on a big one so learning some skills on a more manageable bike is ALWAYS going to be a benefit, even if it only teaches you where not to ride a bigger bike then its of value. There are a lot of opinions on the internet but good old common sense will win the day every time.

My 990 was a capable but heavy bike off road compared to my 690 but I could get it most places; it was just a lot harder and tiring wrestling the bigger bike. You essentially use/adapt the same or similar skills on the bigger bikes but need to respect the extra GOBS of POWER and weight when picking lines. Nothing replaces seat time and a good dose of self preservation when learning how to handle a new bike...big or small.

[Gremlin]

The Boxer motor has in built in levers, so it's already part way up before you start to lift. DAMHIK :pinch: Unlike some lie flat bikes
This is a myth, perpuated by I suspect, BMW. My proof is my own BMW. It's been flat on it's side many times... :facepalm:

[Racing Dave]

Also, the 8GSA et al will come with different tyre sizes. 21" front, what, 19" rear?

17-inch rear, same diameter as the 1200.

[That looks like fun]

How you going Mate????????? Thought you where not supposed to be at computers.
Hows the recovery going??????

GSers

Im fooked mate :eek5: I was just coming right and got some gastro virus gut ripping thing is haveing a go at me now :sick:
I think head butting a truck was more pleasant in a strange sort of way :facepalm:

[george formby]

Perhaps the odd thing for me having not ridden a larger bike off road (I have ridden them on road), it seems like it should be a smoother experience than my current WR. The gearing in 1st and 2nd on the WR is really high, and whether it’s twitchy fuel injection or not I dunno, keeping a smooth throttle can be tough, especially when tired. It’s a fine line between steady throttle, or throwing yourself back with a bad throttle tweak, or no throttle and rocking forward under engine braking. Bigger bikes have longer pulls in 1st and 2nd, perhaps requiring more clutch at slower speeds, but that translates to more control by my way of thinking.

I also find the light weight of the WR at times almost a downside, as it seems too flickable in some cases. Being less skittish, more planted would seem to be a good thing, the downside being when\if things go wrong on a larger bike, the consequences will likely be more severe. But again, trouble should telegraph itself earlier.

Higher seat height doesn’t bother me really, I’m 6’1” but am used to tip toeing on the WR. I also hate to feel cramped when seated.

Up to a point your right but. I ride a twin & engine braking can cause the odd iffy moment, when it's really loose it feels like an anchor grabbing, same changing down, easy to lock the rear wheel briefly. Lots of torque & compromised tires need to be treated with caution. I tend to keep a bit of throttle on & use the rear brake rather than the clutch.
The TDM does not skip about like the DT but in treacherous going the space of time between "oh" and "shit" is much shorter.

[JimmyC]

Jimmy have you thought about a 690r as a replacement/addition to your WRR?

I'm thinking about lots of options at present (and it's a ton of fun!), but always coming back to the fact there's no such thing as the perfect bike. Rego costs alone mean I'm not entertaining the thought of more than one bike so it needs to tick as many boxes as possible. I don't think the 690 ticks enough of mine sadly.



I guess I've proven you can go straight into a big bike for adventure riding, but then I've always taken it easy, and never pretended to be great at it, just enjoying travelling the scenic trails/rivers that road bikes wouldn't.

This sounds much like me. Certainly don't take myself too seriously, and I know I've already taken my WR into situations I wouldn't dare on anything bigger.

Seat heights on the 8 and 12GSA are within 1cm of each other, circa 89cm. The WR incidentally is around 91cm.

[george formby]

Oops. Weight? Yeah, na. Avoid it. I've done a couple of rides two up with luggage full of grog & it can feel a bit like being at the top of a mast in a rough sea. I think my bike is 245kg ready to roll. The tiddler 133kg dripping wet.

[Devil]

I took a GS1200 for a road ride around the Christchurch port hills and was very surprised it felt not much heaver to ride than my Honda Transalp 680cc. It had a lower first gear too. They would be more expensive to fix than a Jap bike if you dropped one though.

GS1200:
http://www.suzukicycles.org/photos/suzuki-history/2002/2002_GS1200SS_450.jpg

1200GS:
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2009/02/bmw_r1200gs_review_07_580.jpg

[Devil]

Seat heights on the 8 and 12GSA are within 1cm of each other, circa 89cm. The WR incidentally is around 91cm.

Noticeable difference in width though, between the 8 and 12.

[Devil]

Jimmy have you thought about a 690r as a replacement/addition to your WRR?

I've actually found my 690 to be quite a handful on rough offroad. It's certainly no EXC - quite stiffly sprung, even when dialled back to the 'soft' recommendations in the manual and quite a snappy engine. If I was going to spend more time on the real rough stuff then i'd look at getting the suspension professionally sorted, but I expect it would be to the detriment of all the road/gravel riding I do. It's great on the road, and will scare many a sports bike in the tight stuff while being very very stable.

[Crisis management]

I've actually found my 690 to be quite a handful on rough offroad. It's certainly no EXC - quite stiffly sprung, even when dialled back to the 'soft' recommendations in the manual and quite a snappy engine.

You may find that it simply needs more speed to make it work well, that's not a piss take by the way. The 640 Adventure had the same set up and it wasn't until you hit rough stuff at 70km/hr plus that it began to work, I could cover rough ground very quickly when I needed to, was quite inspiring but was a pain in the tight, single track stuff as it wouldn't react at low speed.
It's the compromise of weight and plushness again.

To the OP, learn on a small (250ish) light weight bike, ideally a dirt bike, I was 50 when I started riding off road and had good road skills at that stage but learnt more in 6 months of trail riding than I had in the previous 35 years. Clint (I think) said it before, all the good big bike riders are exceptional small bike riders, it's where they learnt.

[JimmyC]

Noticeable difference in width though, between the 8 and 12.

Haven't sat on the 8GSA or the new 12GSA, but between last years 800 and 1200 I thought they were pretty similar. The new water 1200GS is much narrower in the middle than the previous one.

[pampa]

Haven't sat on the 8GSA or the new 12GSA, but between last years 800 and 1200 I thought they were pretty similar. The new water 1200GS is much narrower in the middle than the previous one.
the new 800GS has WP suspension ( at least the adventure model), not sure if started on '13 or just '14. according to some reviews its much better, also new version has the electronic bits too. That said I wouldn't get one (even if I could which is not the case) as it is heaaavy, low to the ground

[Bams]

My 2 cents I started on farm bikes ,trail bikes and slowly got bigger now I'm 70 kg and currently on a gs1200 and its fantastic on the tarseal and we all do a ton of that getting somewhere awesome fun on the gravel but a little bit to handle on the ruff stuff but its capable and a complete new challenge just to get through without having to pick it up and one learns quickly to avoid the soft stuff they are really hard to push.
But big bikes are so nice to ride I will be sad when I down size in my dreams to my next bike Gs800 I don't think I would want to go any smaller for me now ,I have a trail bike for trail riding.

[pampa]

this was posted over the video but is relevant here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JWIZfYQhgMc

[george formby]

this was posted over the video but is relevant here

Erm, relevant to who?:sweatdrop
I have to say it again. That man can ride!

[Gremlin]

Seriously? :eek: I'm not going to even bother to say hold my beer... it ain't gonna happen, he pretty much had the ends swapping roles!

[JimmyC]

Well I guess that vid proves a point... whatever bike you have at what ever stage, you can learn to ride the snot out of it.