Govt 'covering up' school funding plan

[mashman]

Please pay attention in class...

I believe I had the temerity to suggest that there are some teachers who manage greater success for their pupils (as measured by the wallies in Welly) and therefore should be paid more than their 'lazier' colleagues. The little piccy in post 155 shows how these great teachers teach.

But you wouldn't be for that, would you? After all, that would be rewarding those who are a drag on society as you would have it ...

Sorry sir. Am I to be punished sir?

I was aghast at such a suggestion. The success belongs to the student, not the teacher. As does the failure. Yes the ability of the teacher is very important, but it doesn't necessarily follow that shit teachers return shit students does it? I accept that it is very possible for a great teacher to elevate a class, but if you haven't had that great teacher teach a poor performing class and raise their level substantially, then any measurement you implement is flawed, which then highlights that that great teacher has take the kudos for the successes where that kudos belongs to the students.

:laugh: pulease. I expect different criteria to be applied before attributing the success of a class to the teacher. No offence to the teachers out there on the front lines.

[Banditbandit]

Sorry sir. Am I to be punished sir?

I was aghast at such a suggestion. The success belongs to the student, not the teacher. As does the failure. Yes the ability of the teacher is very important, but it doesn't necessarily follow that shit teachers return shit students does it? I accept that it is very possible for a great teacher to elevate a class, but if you haven't had that great teacher teach a poor performing class and raise their level substantially, then any measurement you implement is flawed, which then highlights that that great teacher has take the kudos for the successes where that kudos belongs to the students.

:laugh: pulease. I expect different criteria to be applied before attributing the success of a class to the teacher. No offence to the teachers out there on the front lines.



As a teacher out there I am inclined to disagree with you sorry - but let me articulate it properly - right now I'm off to a teacher's meeting ..

[TheDemonLord]

Which we do, repeatedly, especially the financial system.

Except we have tried other systems - barter, Mana etc. none have been as successful as Money



I'll make a note of that and we'll ensure that Ferrari's are banned.

Thus proving my point, in a RBE, luxury goods will be diminished or banned and that consumer choice as a result is diminished.



The it'll continue that way. then it'll become second hand. By blowing your dealer apparantly.

If the current method for Ferrari allocation is via having sufficient money to afford one - How can this continue to be method of allocation after you remove money?


Meh. The flaws currently exist, yet it's much easier to keep eyes on 1 than it is on many. It all depends how it's set up and those decisions will be left to more interested minds.

Actually its easier for one organisation to supress all information and to muddy the waters in order to supress/decieve - If company X tells you it takes 4 weeks to do something and Company X is the only company that does this specific thing - you have no way to know whether they are being genuine or lazy. However if we introduce Company Y who will either confirm with Company X, or Undercut company X, or form a Cartel with Company X


No.

You should - it details how idealism gets corrupted into totalitarianism and suppression.

All animals are Equal, but some are more Equal than others.


I've never said crime will vanish. But there will be a lot less. Just because there is no need for it does not automatically mean that it cannot happen.

I don't think so - Crime rates will continue as they have always done - in fact in some areas crime will increase - afterall if there is no Financial penalty not to do something - where is the incentive to not do it?

Overnight the highways would become racetracks (no speeding fines because there is no Money!)

[bogan]

Overnight the highways would become racetracks (no speeding fines because there is no Money!)

I've now changed my mind :bleh:


Except we have tried other systems - barter, Mana etc. none have been as successful as Money

yeh, but we tried them ages ago, we need to try them now that <s>money</s> people have got us all this cool tech


Thus proving my point, in a RBE, luxury goods will be diminished or banned and that consumer choice as a result is diminished.

nah, we will just swap them for a bunch of wizard made million dollar hammers and have as much ferraris as we like


If the current method for Ferrari allocation is via having sufficient money to afford one - How can this continue to be method of allocation after you remove money?

removing money removes the only restriction against having something, duh

Actually its easier for one organisation to supress all information and to muddy the waters in order to supress/decieve - If company X tells you it takes 4 weeks to do something and Company X is the only company that does this specific thing - you have no way to know whether they are being genuine or lazy. However if we introduce Company Y who will either confirm with Company X, or Undercut company X, or form a Cartel with Company X

no, cos our organization will be in it for the good of the people and would never be corrupted like farm animals

You should - it details how idealism gets corrupted into totalitarianism and suppression.

All animals are Equal, but some are more Equal than others.

the WBE will just use its wizards to transform misbehaving humans into animals, and vice versa

I don't think so - Crime rates will continue as they have always done - in fact in some areas crime will increase - afterall if there is no Financial penalty not to do something - where is the incentive to not do it?

again, the WBE will just magic up some newts



Now, rate my answers on a scale of plausibility, from pants on legs, to pants on head :innocent:

[mashman]

As a teacher out there I am inclined to disagree with you sorry - but let me articulate it properly - right now I'm off to a teacher's meeting ..

Too cryptic for me.

[mashman]

Except we have tried other systems - barter, Mana etc. none have been as successful as Money

When was the last time we tried something without a financial system? It has served its purpose, time to move over for something new and improved.



Thus proving my point, in a RBE, luxury goods will be diminished or banned and that consumer choice as a result is diminished.

Maybe luxury good will be shared.



If the current method for Ferrari allocation is via having sufficient money to afford one - How can this continue to be method of allocation after you remove money?

I told you, blow your dealer.



Actually its easier for one organisation to supress all information and to muddy the waters in order to supress/decieve - If company X tells you it takes 4 weeks to do something and Company X is the only company that does this specific thing - you have no way to know whether they are being genuine or lazy. However if we introduce Company Y who will either confirm with Company X, or Undercut company X, or form a Cartel with Company X

Only if the information/accounts aren't open for all to see.



You should - it details how idealism gets corrupted into totalitarianism and suppression.

All animals are Equal, but some are more Equal than others.

You think that's news to me?

We're all unequal, again, not news.



I don't think so - Crime rates will continue as they have always done - in fact in some areas crime will increase - afterall if there is no Financial penalty not to do something - where is the incentive to not do it?

Overnight the highways would become racetracks (no speeding fines because there is no Money!)

Some crimes may rise. Some crimes will no longer be crimes. Theft for financial gain will decline dramatically. Other crimes may well drop entirely.

I have no problem over the roads becoming racetracks. If you fuck up and kill yourself, meh. If you fuck up, live and kill others, then you can enjoy a long stretch banged up inside.

[SPman]

Back to schools...

In 2008 New Zealand was internationally ranked in the top seven for educational achievement, and when you compared us with other countries that were also culturally diverse and were experiencing growing inequality we were extremely successful.

From 2008



$35 million gifted to private schools (http://www.3news.co.nz/Why-are-private-schools-receiving-extra-Govt-funding/tabid/423/articleID/118214/Default.aspx) (4% of students). Elite private school Wanganui Collegiate (https://www.greens.org.nz/oralquestions/metiria-turei-prime-minister-cabinets-decision-integrate-wanganui-collegiate) (400 students) receives $3.9 million bail out despite Ministry advice not to.

$25 million slashed (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/3428509/Focus-change-job-cuts-announced-for-Ministry-of-Education) from the Education Ministry (according to assessments it is the worst performing ministry (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/3784557/Education-health-ministries-rate-poorly)).
Introduction of new curriculum abandoned and National Standards implemented (http://media.nzherald.co.nz/webcontent/document/pdf/standards.pdf) without trial, against advice (http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/ED0911/S00107.htm) and with limited consultation (legislated into law).
Cost of repairing leaky school buildings over $1.2 billion (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10764979) (after National’s de-regulation of building industry in 1991).
$400 million wiped (http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/6744422/Family-budgets-at-breaking-point) from the early childhood budget and the target for qualified teachers dropped to 80% (many centres operating at 100% had massive budget cuts).
Curriculum narrowed to literacy and numeracy and all other advisors sacked (http://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/73177/teacher-advisory-services-slashed)(Science, Technology, Arts…).
The expectation that schools provide healthy food wiped (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/1392206/Schools-healthy-food-rule-scrapped) to allow commercial interests into schools again to sell processed food and fruit in schools scheme (http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/117683/minister-defends-decision-on-fruit-in-school-scheme) slashed.
Funding for technology teachers (http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/budget-2012/106689/intermediate-schools-angry-at-technology-staff-cuts) in intermediates cut.
Class sizes over 1:27 (http://www.oecd.org/edu/skills-beyond-school/48631144.pdf), 6 more than the OECD average
Health camps (http://www.odt.co.nz/regions/central-otago/186305/camp-school-be-replaced-new-service) closed.
Pasifika immersion and bilingual (http://www.educationaotearoa.org.nz/all-stories/2011/4/13/pasifika-education-at-risk.html) community child care centres suffer funding cuts despite being a ‘priority’ group.
Residential schools for behavioural needs closed (one illegally (http://www.stuff.co.nz/nelson-mail/8069466/Spirits-high-as-school-wins-battle)).
Schools who questioned Standards were threatened (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503450&objectid=10992177) with having boards and principals sacked and had PD withheld.
Christchurch school closures are poorly managed and questioned by an ombudsmen (http://localbodies-bsprout.blogspot.co.nz/2012/12/ombudsman-exposes-dishonesty-and-poor.html) and found wanting by a court decision (http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/christchurch-school-wins-almost-100-000-in-court-costs-5775374).
New Education Ministry head (http://localbodies-bsprout.blogspot.co.nz/2012/04/lesley-longstone-management-style.html) employed from UK with a background in Charter Schools and limited knowledge of New Zealand system.
Novopay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novopay) signed off and implemented without a proper trial despite having 147 software faults. Schools are having to devote hours of time every week to deal with past and ongoing problems.
Charter Schools introduced despite no evidence of need and are given afinancial advantage (http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/ED1402/S00043/charter-schools-funded-for-more-staff-than-state-schools.htm) over public schools. The Civilian’s satirical take (http://www.thecivilian.co.nz/government-to-introduce-charter-hospitals/) on Charter Schools is actually not far from the truth.
Private schools capture special needs funding (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/8830344/Private-schools-snare-special-needs-cash) over low decile schools.
Te Kotahitanga dumped (http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/news/8583135/Cost-cutting-trumps-education-achievement) despite being highly successful in lifting Maori achievement.
Disbandment of the Supplementary Learning Support (http://rtlb.tki.org.nz/About-RTLB-service/RTLB-History/Amalgamation-of-SLS-RTLB/FAQ-SLS-and-RTLB-amalgamation) tier of special education funding, putting an increased load on our already overworked Resource Teachers for Learning and behaviour (RTLB).
Hekia Parata (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10865962) remains in ministerial role despite poor performance and little respect from the public or the education sector.
After five years under National, New Zealand’s international ranking plummets (http://www.3news.co.nz/NZs-global-education-rankings-drop/tabid/423/articleID/323793/Default.aspx) to as low as 23rd.
Internationally regarded research (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11163764) reveals New Zealand schools are suffering serious harm under the National Standards regime.
Government pays $2.5 million in grants and subsidies (http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/kidicorp-caught-in-corporate-welfare-battle-5869017) to Kidicorp a corporate child care provider with a history of overcharging (http://www.odt.co.nz/news/business/213142/16-million-overcharging-kidicorp) the Ministry ($1.6 million) by manipulating teacher numbers.
The Prime Minister announces that $359 million will be spent on Executive Principals (http://localbodies-bsprout.blogspot.co.nz/2014/02/executive-principals-and-nationals.html) and Teachers who are successful in raising achievement in National Standards. Many question why the money is supporting a corporate management system and isn’t being spent directly to help children with high needs (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/8611167/Angry-and-upset-at-lack-of-school-support).


At the moment

- They are planning to do away with the current Teachers Council and replace it with a new authority (EDUCANZ) that will be led by those approved and appointed by the Minister only, with little professional input.
- The Education Amendment Bill (No2) is currently being progressed through parliament that will support the ongoing restructuring (https://www.greens.org.nz/speeches/catherine-delahunty-opposes-education-amendment-bill-no-2) of the system.
- Hekia Parata is also considering wiping the current support (http://www.3news.co.nz/Paratas-funding-plan-crazy-stuff---NZEI/tabid/1607/articleID/336162/Default.aspx) for lower decile schools and shift extra funding to those schools that perform well in National Standards.
- The head of the EDUCANZ transition board John Morris (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/9790484/Performance-pay-report-sparks-row-over-author) has recently produced a paper that suggests teachers should be paid based on the attainment of their students.

Looks like they are doing a good job of reshaping schools into an ideological corporate image to me - schools for profit and fuck education - so neo con........(not) know the cost of everything and the value of nothing!

[mansell]

Back to schools...

In 2008 New Zealand was internationally ranked in the top seven for educational achievement, and when you compared us with other countries that were also culturally diverse and were experiencing growing inequality we were extremely successful.

From 2008



$35 million gifted to private schools (http://www.3news.co.nz/Why-are-private-schools-receiving-extra-Govt-funding/tabid/423/articleID/118214/Default.aspx) (4% of students). Elite private school Wanganui Collegiate (https://www.greens.org.nz/oralquestions/metiria-turei-prime-minister-cabinets-decision-integrate-wanganui-collegiate) (400 students) receives $3.9 million bail out despite Ministry advice not to.

$25 million slashed (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/3428509/Focus-change-job-cuts-announced-for-Ministry-of-Education) from the Education Ministry (according to assessments it is the worst performing ministry (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/3784557/Education-health-ministries-rate-poorly)).
Introduction of new curriculum abandoned and National Standards implemented (http://media.nzherald.co.nz/webcontent/document/pdf/standards.pdf) without trial, against advice (http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/ED0911/S00107.htm) and with limited consultation (legislated into law).
Cost of repairing leaky school buildings over $1.2 billion (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10764979) (after National’s de-regulation of building industry in 1991).
$400 million wiped (http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/6744422/Family-budgets-at-breaking-point) from the early childhood budget and the target for qualified teachers dropped to 80% (many centres operating at 100% had massive budget cuts).
Curriculum narrowed to literacy and numeracy and all other advisors sacked (http://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/73177/teacher-advisory-services-slashed)(Science, Technology, Arts…).
The expectation that schools provide healthy food wiped (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/1392206/Schools-healthy-food-rule-scrapped) to allow commercial interests into schools again to sell processed food and fruit in schools scheme (http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/117683/minister-defends-decision-on-fruit-in-school-scheme) slashed.
Funding for technology teachers (http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/budget-2012/106689/intermediate-schools-angry-at-technology-staff-cuts) in intermediates cut.
Class sizes over 1:27 (http://www.oecd.org/edu/skills-beyond-school/48631144.pdf), 6 more than the OECD average
Health camps (http://www.odt.co.nz/regions/central-otago/186305/camp-school-be-replaced-new-service) closed.
Pasifika immersion and bilingual (http://www.educationaotearoa.org.nz/all-stories/2011/4/13/pasifika-education-at-risk.html) community child care centres suffer funding cuts despite being a ‘priority’ group.
Residential schools for behavioural needs closed (one illegally (http://www.stuff.co.nz/nelson-mail/8069466/Spirits-high-as-school-wins-battle)).
Schools who questioned Standards were threatened (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503450&objectid=10992177) with having boards and principals sacked and had PD withheld.
Christchurch school closures are poorly managed and questioned by an ombudsmen (http://localbodies-bsprout.blogspot.co.nz/2012/12/ombudsman-exposes-dishonesty-and-poor.html) and found wanting by a court decision (http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/christchurch-school-wins-almost-100-000-in-court-costs-5775374).
New Education Ministry head (http://localbodies-bsprout.blogspot.co.nz/2012/04/lesley-longstone-management-style.html) employed from UK with a background in Charter Schools and limited knowledge of New Zealand system.
Novopay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novopay) signed off and implemented without a proper trial despite having 147 software faults. Schools are having to devote hours of time every week to deal with past and ongoing problems.
Charter Schools introduced despite no evidence of need and are given afinancial advantage (http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/ED1402/S00043/charter-schools-funded-for-more-staff-than-state-schools.htm) over public schools. The Civilian’s satirical take (http://www.thecivilian.co.nz/government-to-introduce-charter-hospitals/) on Charter Schools is actually not far from the truth.
Private schools capture special needs funding (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/8830344/Private-schools-snare-special-needs-cash) over low decile schools.
Te Kotahitanga dumped (http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/news/8583135/Cost-cutting-trumps-education-achievement) despite being highly successful in lifting Maori achievement.
Disbandment of the Supplementary Learning Support (http://rtlb.tki.org.nz/About-RTLB-service/RTLB-History/Amalgamation-of-SLS-RTLB/FAQ-SLS-and-RTLB-amalgamation) tier of special education funding, putting an increased load on our already overworked Resource Teachers for Learning and behaviour (RTLB).
Hekia Parata (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10865962) remains in ministerial role despite poor performance and little respect from the public or the education sector.
After five years under National, New Zealand’s international ranking plummets (http://www.3news.co.nz/NZs-global-education-rankings-drop/tabid/423/articleID/323793/Default.aspx) to as low as 23rd.
Internationally regarded research (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11163764) reveals New Zealand schools are suffering serious harm under the National Standards regime.
Government pays $2.5 million in grants and subsidies (http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/kidicorp-caught-in-corporate-welfare-battle-5869017) to Kidicorp a corporate child care provider with a history of overcharging (http://www.odt.co.nz/news/business/213142/16-million-overcharging-kidicorp) the Ministry ($1.6 million) by manipulating teacher numbers.
The Prime Minister announces that $359 million will be spent on Executive Principals (http://localbodies-bsprout.blogspot.co.nz/2014/02/executive-principals-and-nationals.html) and Teachers who are successful in raising achievement in National Standards. Many question why the money is supporting a corporate management system and isn’t being spent directly to help children with high needs (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/8611167/Angry-and-upset-at-lack-of-school-support).


At the moment

- They are planning to do away with the current Teachers Council and replace it with a new authority (EDUCANZ) that will be led by those approved and appointed by the Minister only, with little professional input.
- The Education Amendment Bill (No2) is currently being progressed through parliament that will support the ongoing restructuring (https://www.greens.org.nz/speeches/catherine-delahunty-opposes-education-amendment-bill-no-2) of the system.
- Hekia Parata is also considering wiping the current support (http://www.3news.co.nz/Paratas-funding-plan-crazy-stuff---NZEI/tabid/1607/articleID/336162/Default.aspx) for lower decile schools and shift extra funding to those schools that perform well in National Standards.
- The head of the EDUCANZ transition board John Morris (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/9790484/Performance-pay-report-sparks-row-over-author) has recently produced a paper that suggests teachers should be paid based on the attainment of their students.

Looks like they are doing a good job of reshaping schools into an ideological corporate image to me - schools for profit and fuck education - so neo con........(not) know the cost of everything and the value of nothing!

Thank you - all you who have been bagging the system need to read this. Solution get rid of people who look on education as a business and replace them with those who consider education a right.

[Ocean1]

Thank you - all you who have been bagging the system need to read this. Solution get rid of people who look on education as a business and replace them with those who consider education a right.

Meh.

From the horse's mouth:

295380

http://www.treasury.govt.nz/government/longterm/fiscalposition/2009/16.htm

Looks to me like we're spending more on education than ever.

Want to see if you can find evidence we're getting better results?

Or are you happy to let someone else have your opinion?

[mansell]

Meh.

From the horse's mouth:

295380

http://www.treasury.govt.nz/government/longterm/fiscalposition/2009/16.htm

Looks to me like we're spending more on education than ever.

Want to see if you can find evidence we're getting better results?

Or are you happy to let someone else have your opinion?

That's interesting - I have run a core department in two high schools now and my budgets (the money we get to spend on teaching) has remained static for at least the last 4 years, so my question is where has all the extra spending gone? Not into the class room. This is not even taking into account rising prices - there is some fantastic stuff out there that would help with teaching and learning but most of it is expensive and I have to be very choosy about what I purchase. It would be nice to see some of the extra spending go into schools' operational budgets, ask any principal and they will tell you about their budgetting problems.

[Banditbandit]

Too cryptic for me.

Oh .. did we do a bad job educating you ???

Not cryptic at all ... I'm a teacher and I disagree with you.

U need some time to properly articulate my reasons for disagreeing with you

But again, I am off to a teacher's meeting today. SO sorry - you might have to wait until Monday - and by then we both might have forgotten ..

[mashman]

Oh .. did we do a bad job educating you ???

No, I was more than capable doing that myself by ignoring what your brethren were offering in the way of knowledge.



Not cryptic at all ... I'm a teacher and I disagree with you.

U need some time to properly articulate my reasons for disagreeing with you

But again, I am off to a teacher's meeting today. SO sorry - you might have to wait until Monday - and by then we both might have forgotten ..

Was just checking.

[TheDemonLord]

When was the last time we tried something without a financial system? It has served its purpose, time to move over for something new and improved.

About 200 years ago in NZ, before the white man came.... and other Tribal cultures that still don't use Money - they still have the same problems that Money based economies do - just on a smaller scale (because they have less people)


Maybe luxury good will be shared.

Whilst some goods in theory can be shared - not all can, for those that cannot - what do you propose?


I told you, blow your dealer.

Now you are just not trying - the Dealer doesn't have any money either - the only people that have money is Elo Banko NZo - so again I pose the question - how does the allocation of luxury goods in a RBE work? who decides and how do they decide and most importantly - How do they decide in a way that doesn't screw someone else over?


Only if the information/accounts aren't open for all to see.

Like the government is open for all to see? or Any of the other monopoly organisation in history?


You think that's news to me?

We're all unequal, again, not news.

If we aren't equal then - why do you think we should get Equal resources?


Some crimes may rise. Some crimes will no longer be crimes. Theft for financial gain will decline dramatically. Other crimes may well drop entirely.

I have no problem over the roads becoming racetracks. If you fuck up and kill yourself, meh. If you fuck up, live and kill others, then you can enjoy a long stretch banged up inside.

Theft will continue as it is, actually it will probably rise - since victims are less likely to invest in security systems (no point) and will be able to replenish their lost goods quickly - people will steal.

[mashman]

About 200 years ago in NZ, before the white man came.... and other Tribal cultures that still don't use Money - they still have the same problems that Money based economies do - just on a smaller scale (because they have less people)

A hell of a lot has happened since then. Not least of which is communication. The white man is changing. You might not have noticed?


Whilst some goods in theory can be shared - not all can, for those that cannot - what do you propose?

What cannot be shared?


Now you are just not trying - the Dealer doesn't have any money either - the only people that have money is Elo Banko NZo - so again I pose the question - how does the allocation of luxury goods in a RBE work? who decides and how do they decide and most importantly - How do they decide in a way that doesn't screw someone else over?

It seems no matter how explain this to you you refuse to accept it. If the dealer doesn't like you, the dealer doesn't have to deal with you. Blowing him is merely a backup plan.


Like the government is open for all to see? or Any of the other monopoly organisation in history?

Strip back all system security and make every single transaction available for everybody to see i.e. TheDemonLord "bought" a Ferrari. mashman "bought" nothing more than the necessities, and a butt plug. EVERYTHING... and that includes trade agreements and ALL documentation.


If we aren't equal then - why do you think we should get Equal resources?

Did I say we should all get equal resources? Some us of won't need the resources that you need, so why would we be bothered with stuff that we don't need if it could be used by someone else?


Theft will continue as it is, actually it will probably rise - since victims are less likely to invest in security systems (no point) and will be able to replenish their lost goods quickly - people will steal.

So people are born to thieve? I have a stronger belief in humanity than that. That and according to the vital statistics department of bad goings on, the crime rate is falling. Even though more people are struggling and using food banks. Ooooo, could it be that instead of thieving stuff to buy food they can go and get free food and not need to thieve? The mind positively boggles at the possibility eh.

[TheDemonLord]

A hell of a lot has happened since then. Not least of which is communication. The white man is changing. You might not have noticed?

Communication doesn't solve the underlying problem - people are still just as Cunty now as they were before money was invented.


What cannot be shared?

Use once luxury items - a good example is an Eyefillet steak - when a Cow is Slaughtered, there is less Eye Fillet, than there is say Rump - currently the system is to charge more for the fillet than the Rump, but as a Luxury item, a Steak cannot be shared - once I have eaten it (and I eat all the Steak), it is gone (Om Nom Nom Steak)


It seems no matter how explain this to you you refuse to accept it. If the dealer doesn't like you, the dealer doesn't have to deal with you. Blowing him is merely a backup plan.

Because there is no adequate answer that you have provided - Without a method to assign a higher value to items and a method to assign higher values to services, there can be no luxury items as there is no method to distribute them.


Strip back all system security and make every single transaction available for everybody to see i.e. TheDemonLord "bought" a Ferrari. mashman "bought" nothing more than the necessities, and a butt plug. EVERYTHING... and that includes trade agreements and ALL documentation.

So, now no one has any Privacy - So not only are we living with only the bare necessities (unless you can provide an answer to the above regarding luxuries), but all rights to privacy a La 1984 have been squashed - Sounding more and more like Utopia every minute....


Did I say we should all get equal resources? Some us of won't need the resources that you need, so why would we be bothered with stuff that we don't need if it could be used by someone else?

Then answer what method you use to assign more resources to one person than another that doesn't result in the same inequities the current system has.


So people are born to thieve? I have a stronger belief in humanity than that. That and according to the vital statistics department of bad goings on, the crime rate is falling. Even though more people are struggling and using food banks. Ooooo, could it be that instead of thieving stuff to buy food they can go and get free food and not need to thieve? The mind positively boggles at the possibility eh.

I didn't say people are born thieves, but there are people who steal for reasons other than financial gain - even those that do steal for financial gain

Thats nice you believe in humanity - I don't.

[bogan]

Communication doesn't solve the underlying problem - people are still just as Cunty now as they were before money was invented.

One could say it is in fact exacerbated, as they can now communicate with each other and come up with diabolical plans for the cuntocalypse.

[TheDemonLord]

One could say it is in fact exacerbated, as they can now communicate with each other and come up with diabolical plans for the cuntocalypse.

Cuntocalypse - I love it

[mashman]

Communication doesn't solve the underlying problem - people are still just as Cunty now as they were before money was invented.

You're right, ignoring the issue and sweeping under the carpet whilst money saves the day solves the underlying problem. How many thousand years is that NOW? and counting........



Use once luxury items - a good example is an Eyefillet steak - when a Cow is Slaughtered, there is less Eye Fillet, than there is say Rump - currently the system is to charge more for the fillet than the Rump, but as a Luxury item, a Steak cannot be shared - once I have eaten it (and I eat all the Steak), it is gone (Om Nom Nom Steak)

Pulease... the entire cow is eaten, and then there's another one, and another, in fact I believe cows slightly outnumber people in NZ. But I guess you're just a cunt. I bet you call yourself a proud NZer too :killingme


Because there is no adequate answer that you have provided - Without a method to assign a higher value to items and a method to assign higher values to services, there can be no luxury items as there is no method to distribute them.

You've had your answer and it is very much a method for the distribution of goodds and services of any "value". So, yes there can be "luxury" items, you'll just never get one coz you're a cunt. I have no problem with that. Who knows, maybe I'll feel sorry for you and share what I have.


So, now no one has any Privacy - So not only are we living with only the bare necessities (unless you can provide an answer to the above regarding luxuries), but all rights to privacy a La 1984 have been squashed - Sounding more and more like Utopia every minute....

What privacy do you think you are going to lose? You do know that you can buy a service online to protect your internet privacy? Where does it end? Armed guards at the gates?


Then answer what method you use to assign more resources to one person than another that doesn't result in the same inequities the current system has.

As long as the resources are available and you're not going to waste them, have them.


I didn't say people are born thieves, but there are people who steal for reasons other than financial gain - even those that do steal for financial gain

Thats nice you believe in humanity - I don't.

There are other reasons people steal stuff. They want it usually being at the top of that list. But not everyone, not by a long chalk, steals because they want something. I'm assuming they implement something called temperance.

I'm sorry to hear that you're so scared of us.

[TheDemonLord]

You're right, ignoring the issue and sweeping under the carpet whilst money saves the day solves the underlying problem. How many thousand years is that NOW? and counting........

the difference is that I am not claiming that money is a solution to the problem, I concede it does nothing to solve the problem - you are claiming NOW as a solution to the problem without an explanation of how it solves the underlying problem, other than your belief in humanities inate goodness.


Pulease... the entire cow is eaten, and then there's another one, and another, in fact I believe cows slightly outnumber people in NZ. But I guess you're just a cunt. I bet you call yourself a proud NZer too :killingme

Again you dodge the luxury question - There is a difference both in taste, texture and prestige between an Eye Fillet and say toungue or liver - who determines who gets what and how is it determined?

Either it is done arbitrarily or it is done based on the value of ones output in society - if this the method selected, how is it different from using money?


You've had your answer and it is very much a method for the distribution of goodds and services of any "value". So, yes there can be "luxury" items, you'll just never get one coz you're a cunt. I have no problem with that. Who knows, maybe I'll feel sorry for you and share what I have.

I haven't had a difinitive answer as to how this works, I have had smoke, I have had mirrors but not an actual explanation of how you intend to assign these luxury items.


What privacy do you think you are going to lose? You do know that you can buy a service online to protect your internet privacy? Where does it end? Armed guards at the gates?

What privacy am I going to loose by having my entire Financial transactions publicly availible and freely accessible for the entire country.... Hmmmmm

Tell you what - why don't you start? Post up your entire financial history to KB (so bank statements, loan agreements etc.)

Somehow, I don't think you will be too keen to do that.


As long as the resources are available and you're not going to waste them, have them.

How do you determine what a Waste is? to many having a 5.7ltr V8 instead of an 800cc car is a waste, to some having more than 3 pairs of shoes is a waste, to some going overseas is a waste, to others upgrading technology is a waste. Who decides what is and what isn't a waste, how do they decide it?


There are other reasons people steal stuff. They want it usually being at the top of that list. But not everyone, not by a long chalk, steals because they want something. I'm assuming they implement something called temperance.

I'm sorry to hear that you're so scared of us.

Not scarred - I just have no faith in Humanity as a whole based on the actions I have observed Humanity take.

[mashman]

the difference is that I am not claiming that money is a solution to the problem, I concede it does nothing to solve the problem - you are claiming NOW as a solution to the problem without an explanation of how it solves the underlying problem, other than your belief in humanities inate goodness.

The entire financial system relies on the confidence of human beings. It can be abused much more easily than a system that does not require money to function, so NOW will work becauseof humanities inate goodness.


Again you dodge the luxury question - There is a difference both in taste, texture and prestige between an Eye Fillet and say toungue or liver - who determines who gets what and how is it determined?

Either it is done arbitrarily or it is done based on the value of ones output in society - if this the method selected, how is it different from using money?

I haven't had a difinitive answer as to how this works, I have had smoke, I have had mirrors but not an actual explanation of how you intend to assign these luxury items.


It wasn't dodged, you just didn't like the answer. Not everyone eats steak. Not everyone who can afford the finest of cuts is connoisseur enough to care which part of the cow they eat and would see those finest cuts as a waste, both in terms taste and in terms of value. Some people prefer rump. Some people simply don't care. You've had the question answered, you aren't going to get the fillet of answers you adore.

Arbitrarily, with a little value thrown in depending on whether the person who has produced the goods likes the cut of your jib.


What privacy am I going to loose by having my entire Financial transactions publicly availible and freely accessible for the entire country.... Hmmmmm

Tell you what - why don't you start? Post up your entire financial history to KB (so bank statements, loan agreements etc.)

Somehow, I don't think you will be too keen to do that.

No, what privacy are you going to lose under NOW. You wanted accountability yet aren't prepared to be held accountable yourself? :killingme

I'll be more than happy too from day 1 of NOW being implemented. I will not only hold myself accountible, I will prove it for anyone to see. That way they can judge whether I'm financially taking the piss or not for themselves and deal with me on that basis should they wish.


How do you determine what a Waste is? to many having a 5.7ltr V8 instead of an 800cc car is a waste, to some having more than 3 pairs of shoes is a waste, to some going overseas is a waste, to others upgrading technology is a waste. Who decides what is and what isn't a waste, how do they decide it?

How useful and abundant the resource is. That will probably be decided at community and country level. Your V8 will be offset by my little Nissan (sounds like you're compensating for something there) that I will hardly ever use as I will be working from home under NOW, as will a great many people.


Not scarred - I just have no faith in Humanity as a whole based on the actions I have observed Humanity take.

Scarred? Freudian slip? I have been in a similar position to yourself. They show no signs of wanting to change, yet when there are changes made they do change. Changing our environment and landing as much responsibility on the individual as possible as well as meeting all of a persons needs for free will likely bring out the good side and limit the "bad" behaviour. I see no reason not to think so... and I have come to that conclusions not only by direct observation but also using direct contact and asking the questions.

Human beings have earned and restored my faith.

[TheDemonLord]

The entire financial system relies on the confidence of human beings. It can be abused much more easily than a system that does not require money to function, so NOW will work becauseof humanities inate goodness.

I never said the current financial system is perfect, or without its flaws - I did however say it works regardless of whether people are nice to each other or not. which means it is a more robost system than NOW (which needs both the confidence of humans - all Systems require this, and Humans to be nice)


It wasn't dodged, you just didn't like the answer. Not everyone eats steak. Not everyone who can afford the finest of cuts is connoisseur enough to care which part of the cow they eat and would see those finest cuts as a waste, both in terms taste and in terms of value. Some people prefer rump. Some people simply don't care. You've had the question answered, you aren't going to get the fillet of answers you adore.

Arbitrarily, with a little value thrown in depending on whether the person who has produced the goods likes the cut of your jib.

Okay then - a real world example - there are 50 cuts of Eye Fillet availible - 100 people want them. In the current system, the price is increased to the point that supply equals demand - ie 50 people can afford to buy them, 50 people can't.

Same example in NOW - 50 steaks, 100 people - I want an answer more substantial/fully formed than 'they get given to the person the butcher likes' - as this basically opens the door to absolute corruption - where the consumer is held hostage by the whims of the producer/supplier


No, what privacy are you going to lose under NOW. You wanted accountability yet aren't prepared to be held accountable yourself? :killingme

I'll be more than happy too from day 1 of NOW being implemented. I will not only hold myself accountible, I will prove it for anyone to see. That way they can judge whether I'm financially taking the piss or not for themselves and deal with me on that basis should they wish.

You are damn straight I am not prepared to be held accountable to other people, they have no right to Judge me in the same way I have no right to judge them. The organisation needs to be accountable to the people - that is it. What you are insinuating is the classic entrapment line 'If you have nothing to hide, let us search your property without a warrant' which is why I called it 1984ism


How useful and abundant the resource is. That will probably be decided at community and country level. Your V8 will be offset by my little Nissan (sounds like you're compensating for something there) that I will hardly ever use as I will be working from home under NOW, as will a great many people.

My point is that how useful and abundant is entirely subject to perspective, to the raving Hippies, Petrol isn't abundant and should be limited to absolute necessity. To the Texas Oil Baron, Petrol is the most abundant stuff on the planet - come on in, use as much as you can pay for.


Scarred? Freudian slip? I have been in a similar position to yourself. They show no signs of wanting to change, yet when there are changes made they do change. Changing our environment and landing as much responsibility on the individual as possible as well as meeting all of a persons needs for free will likely bring out the good side and limit the "bad" behaviour. I see no reason not to think so... and I have come to that conclusions not only by direct observation but also using direct contact and asking the questions.

Human beings have earned and restored my faith.

Of course when situations are changed people change, however a system that requires them to change in order for it to work might need some evidence that they have changed - Especially given previous behaviour.

To use an analogy - would you let a pedophile babysit your kids alone on his word alone that he has changed? Or would you instead ask for proof that he is not a danger before you even contemplated letting him near your children?

[Ocean1]

That's interesting - I have run a core department in two high schools now and my budgets (the money we get to spend on teaching) has remained static for at least the last 4 years, so my question is where has all the extra spending gone? Not into the class room. This is not even taking into account rising prices - there is some fantastic stuff out there that would help with teaching and learning but most of it is expensive and I have to be very choosy about what I purchase. It would be nice to see some of the extra spending go into schools' operational budgets, ask any principal and they will tell you about their budgetting problems.

Search the rest of treasury's site, it's remarkably user friendly.

That data was inflation corrected.

And yes there are new toys available to every industry on the planet, a great many of which can improve productivity. I've no doubt some of them would improve results for you, but the problem your industry has is the insulation between the supplier and the end user. If there was a genuine market for high-tech schools then you should be able to offer that option to your clients. The fact that the education dept stands between you hurts both supplier and producer. Even private schools aren't fully funded by their clients, and the constraints that come with the top-up funding cripples any innovation.

Teachers are always bleating about the lack of resources, and they're always bleating about threats of performance based remuneration in any form. But you can't have your cake and eat it, and until there's some commercial link between supplier and consumer you'll never know what your clients think about your performance and your charges. Yes that's important.

[blue rider]

what ever, the future unemployed need not to know how to read n write n understand n such things...

http://localbodies-bsprout.blogspot.co.nz/2014/03/the-destruction-of-new-zealands-public.html

[Ocean1]

what ever, the future unemployed need not to know how to read n write n understand n such things...

http://localbodies-bsprout.blogspot.co.nz/2014/03/the-destruction-of-new-zealands-public.html

Yes, that was posted verbatim yesterday.

As was the information that we're spending more on education now than ever.

But as you say, "whatever", that obviously doesn't agree with your world-view and must be wrong.

Edit: and do try to get a handle on the cause/effect thing, the choice to not bother with reading and writing is what causes unemployment, not the other way around.

[mansell]

Search the rest of treasury's site, it's remarkably user friendly.

That data was inflation corrected.

And yes there are new toys available to every industry on the planet, a great many of which can improve productivity. I've no doubt some of them would improve results for you, but the problem your industry has is the insulation between the supplier and the end user. If there was a genuine market for high-tech schools then you should be able to offer that option to your clients. The fact that the education dept stands between you hurts both supplier and producer. Even private schools aren't fully funded by their clients, and the constraints that come with the top-up funding cripples any innovation.

Teachers are always bleating about the lack of resources, and they're always bleating about threats of performance based remuneration in any form. But you can't have your cake and eat it, and until there's some commercial link between supplier and consumer you'll never know what your clients think about your performance and your charges. Yes that's important.

This brings me back to the point that we should not treat education as a business, it should be a right for all people and as soon as you adopt the business model to it education becomes the privalige of the wealthy. Why should there be a commercial link? Can't we just aim for a highly educated population and leave all this talk about comparing it to industry out of the equation, of cause I am going to bleat on about being underfunded when my entire budget is what my signing rights were when I was 19 and working in industry. The reality is as soon as people start to talk about suppliers/consumers and market forces it worries me as there seems to be this attitude that people should be educated just so they can fit into a niche in the work place. With a well educated population we can make advances as a society, after all there are jobs about now that didn't exist when I went through high school and there will probably be jobs that don't exist now for my students when they reach my age. However a person with a solid education is a lot more adaptable to the changes in society than someone who has been pigeon-holed into a particular career pathway.

[oldrider]

This brings me back to the point that we should not treat education as a business, it should be a right for all people and as soon as you adopt the business model to it education becomes the privalige of the wealthy. Why should there be a commercial link? Can't we just aim for a highly educated population and leave all this talk about comparing it to industry out of the equation, of cause I am going to bleat on about being underfunded when my entire budget is what my signing rights were when I was 19 and working in industry. The reality is as soon as people start to talk about suppliers/consumers and market forces it worries me as there seems to be this attitude that people should be educated just so they can fit into a niche in the work place. With a well educated population we can make advances as a society, after all there are jobs about now that didn't exist when I went through high school and there will probably be jobs that don't exist now for my students when they reach my age. However a person with a solid education is a lot more adaptable to the changes in society than someone who has been pigeon-holed into a particular career pathway.

Cool.

Bet you don't realise it but what you have described above is almost what Roger Douglas and company were saying after the 1984 election!

Industry and business create real work and opportunities and these opportunities need educated flexible and diverse people to make them happen!

Education and industry go hand in hand and the workforce must be able to quickly adjust to the challenges and demands created by the market!

The pigeon-holes you speak of were created by the unions forcing workers to remain stagnent in the positions where they began and forced them to stay there!

The commercial link to education is vital and commerce should be financially supporting the education of the future workers they need.

Government departments were the old order of the day in their "make work" capacity by training workers for what they wanted rather than what industry needed.

The products of the old government departments were very good and in demand world wide but were not targeted and required retraining for most new jobs.

Education and Industry should be symbiotically linked especially where students can identify their desired career path.

Schools should be preparing students for their future in the workforce rather than just some meaningless unrelated curriculum!

We have the teachers, we have the students, we have the industries, the only thing we seem to need more of is direction!

[mashman]

I never said the current financial system is perfect, or without its flaws - I did however say it works regardless of whether people are nice to each other or not. which means it is a more robost system than NOW (which needs both the confidence of humans - all Systems require this, and Humans to be nice)

NOW requires nothing more than people to be exactly who and what they currently are. Itonically, you're saying that id the system changed, people would change for the worse. That proves that a change of system changes the perceptions and behaviour of the people. I'd like to know for sure, you're a chicken shit.


Okay then - a real world example - there are 50 cuts of Eye Fillet availible - 100 people want them. In the current system, the price is increased to the point that supply equals demand - ie 50 people can afford to buy them, 50 people can't.

Same example in NOW - 50 steaks, 100 people - I want an answer more substantial/fully formed than 'they get given to the person the butcher likes' - as this basically opens the door to absolute corruption - where the consumer is held hostage by the whims of the producer/supplier

I can't believe how succinct of a description of the current systekm that is. And jjust to make it absolutely clear, I mean both paragraphs.

Here's an example for you. There are 50 people who I believe don't deserve fillet steak, why don't I just shoot everyone who goes anywhere near fillet steak and eventually everyone will stop eating it.


You are damn straight I am not prepared to be held accountable to other people, they have no right to Judge me in the same way I have no right to judge them. The organisation needs to be accountable to the people - that is it. What you are insinuating is the classic entrapment line 'If you have nothing to hide, let us search your property without a warrant' which is why I called it 1984ism

But all you have done is judge them. Oh they will steal. Oh they will all want Ferrari's. Oh they will all be corrupt. Make your mind up son. What I'm insinuating is that we are one country, one people and to prove that I am willing to show your everything just in case. Make your own stories up if they help, but you're way off the mark when it comes to second guessing what my motives. Probably because they're your interpretation of my motives, which aren't only wrong, but they betray your projection of your view. You have confirmed that you don't trust people, I'm offering that the current financial system is the reason for that lack of trust. That, is entirely your choice.


My point is that how useful and abundant is entirely subject to perspective, to the raving Hippies, Petrol isn't abundant and should be limited to absolute necessity. To the Texas Oil Baron, Petrol is the most abundant stuff on the planet - come on in, use as much as you can pay for.

What's so hard about answering the question: Is petrol a finite resource? The answer is yes. Is there a manistream alternative? The answer is no. Do you think we should be conserving petrol until an alternative is found. My answer is yes. Your answer is, what does it matter as long as people can afford to pay for it. I'll side with the hippiesif your alternative is toignore the problemin the first place. That you can't think beyond your generation speaks volumes... that you label the hippies as hippies and refuse to take a side speaks volumes... that you don't accept that you may well need to restrain yourself given the finite resources that we have available speaks volumes. At some point my friend, you're going to have to consider something other than what you want. then again, you have free will and an entitlement complex to go with it, so you probably don't believe that it's your problem. Just an observation.


Of course when situations are changed people change, however a system that requires them to change in order for it to work might need some evidence that they have changed - Especially given previous behaviour.

To use an analogy - would you let a pedophile babysit your kids alone on his word alone that he has changed? Or would you instead ask for proof that he is not a danger before you even contemplated letting him near your children?

They don't have to change. If they don't change in the slightest the entire system would work. That people will change may well have both positive and negative consequences, but I'm putting my money (and will if I can get to a stage where I have it to burn without adversely affecting my family) on people being reasonable in response to the change.

I'd be educating my kids as to what a pedophile is and asking them if they want to be looked after such a person. If they're happy, and whilst I will have huge reservations about it, it would be up to them and up to the pedophile, or should I say ex-pedophile. Ideally I'd execute anyone convicted of pedophilia or rape. I'm not so keen on such behaviour being given a second chance, but with any luck I'd be overruled and would accept that overruling on the basis that the majority would grant them a second chance.

It's like saying, would you trust a currency trader to run your country.

[bogan]

Okay then - a real world example - there are 50 cuts of Eye Fillet availible - 100 people want them. In the current system, the price is increased to the point that supply equals demand - ie 50 people can afford to buy them, 50 people can't.

One of the core components of an rbe is plentiful bounty. To put it simply, if there is only 50 and demand for 100, the rbe is failing. For it to become a viable option, tech must increase, people's demands must decrease, and population must decrease, and people must be very open to the concept of sharing. Systems like mashy is describing where people decide to rashun out various items based on personal life like / dislike or personal favors are not rbes. Its simply a case of one guy with way too much faith in a system to see that it simply isn't time for it yet.

[Ocean1]

This brings me back to the point that we should not treat education as a business, it should be a right for all people and as soon as you adopt the business model to it education becomes the privalige of the wealthy. Why should there be a commercial link? Can't we just aim for a highly educated population and leave all this talk about comparing it to industry out of the equation, of cause I am going to bleat on about being underfunded when my entire budget is what my signing rights were when I was 19 and working in industry. The reality is as soon as people start to talk about suppliers/consumers and market forces it worries me as there seems to be this attitude that people should be educated just so they can fit into a niche in the work place. With a well educated population we can make advances as a society, after all there are jobs about now that didn't exist when I went through high school and there will probably be jobs that don't exist now for my students when they reach my age. However a person with a solid education is a lot more adaptable to the changes in society than someone who has been pigeon-holed into a particular career pathway.

There you go again, on one hand education shouldn't be considered a commercial enterprise but on the other hand it want's more money. :laugh: Can you really not see the contradiction, there? Balancing costs against results isn't a business model, it's simply the real world, but for far too long a socialist leaning academia has wilfully denied that link between resources and results.

And it's only a right if taxpayers that pay for it decide to grant it so, and in order for that to happen you have to convince a majority that they should fund it. You'd get no argument from me, in spite of the fact that in my case the returns are far from obvious, but you need to learn to manage the real world to convince the rest.

[mansell]

There you go again, on one hand education shouldn't be considered a commercial enterprise but on the other hand it want's more money. :laugh: Can you really not see the contradiction, there? Balancing costs against results isn't a business model, it's simply the real world, but for far too long a socialist leaning academia has wilfully denied that link between resources and results.

And it's only a right if taxpayers that pay for it decide to grant it so, and in order for that to happen you have to convince a majority that they should fund it. You'd get no argument from me, in spite of the fact that in my case the returns are far from obvious, but you need to learn to manage the real world to convince the rest.

I guess it is because in my opinion education shouldn't be for a purpose it should be the purpose - I know most people would want to see a practical benefit from increasing spending in schooling whereas to me an educated populus is a benefit in its own right. I am aware this is an ideological view point and as such will not hold sway with a vast number of people so it is unlikely to be a concept for any political party to grasp. But I guess it is this belief that has taken me away from industry and into the education sector. Personally I would like to live in a society where people were judged by their ability to think and where education is treated with the respect it deserves.

[oldrider]

I guess it is because in my opinion education shouldn't be for a purpose it should be the purpose - I know most people would want to see a practical benefit from increasing spending in schooling whereas to me an educated populus is a benefit in its own right. I am aware this is an ideological view point and as such will not hold sway with a vast number of people so it is unlikely to be a concept for any political party to grasp. But I guess it is this belief that has taken me away from industry and into the education sector. Personally I would like to live in a society where people were judged by their ability to think and where education is treated with the respect it deserves.

There is the rub, respect is earned rather than demanded.

[TheDemonLord]

Either you were drunk when you made the below post, or I hit a really raw Nerve


NOW requires nothing more than people to be exactly who and what they currently are. Itonically, you're saying that id the system changed, people would change for the worse. That proves that a change of system changes the perceptions and behaviour of the people. I'd like to know for sure, you're a chicken shit.

Ad Hominem, Really? - I never said that Changes in Systems didn't change Behaviour, I said that sometimes the behaviour change HAS to come before the system change, otherwise it dooms the system to failure.

A good example would be the Legal Drinking age - NZ could change the age to be on par with many European countries, however this would result in an severe negative consequences - because our Drinking behaviour has to change before the system can change - NOW is in the same boat


I can't believe how succinct of a description of the current systekm that is. And jjust to make it absolutely clear, I mean both paragraphs.

Here's an example for you. There are 50 people who I believe don't deserve fillet steak, why don't I just shoot everyone who goes anywhere near fillet steak and eventually everyone will stop eating it.

Again you Dodge the Question - surely if NOW was ready to be implemented, you would have provided an Answer already that is as fully formed as the current one - price rises to where Demand is Equal to Supply.

that said - Shooting people you don't believe deserve something IS an answer.... NOW - a Totalitarian 1984 regime where there is no privacy and you can be murdered by the government for wanting something Mashman doesn't think you deserve - Yep reaaaaaallllly selling me on the Idea that NOW will be Utopia....


But all you have done is judge them. Oh they will steal. Oh they will all want Ferrari's. Oh they will all be corrupt. Make your mind up son. What I'm insinuating is that we are one country, one people and to prove that I am willing to show your everything just in case. Make your own stories up if they help, but you're way off the mark when it comes to second guessing what my motives. Probably because they're your interpretation of my motives, which aren't only wrong, but they betray your projection of your view. You have confirmed that you don't trust people, I'm offering that the current financial system is the reason for that lack of trust. That, is entirely your choice.

I judge Humanity as a whole and of which I am a member. I judge them based on our passed actions over the last 5000 years of recorded history and earlier than that based on what we know from the fossil and evolutionary records. We got to where we are, not by sharing, but by blood, violence, greed, conquest etc.

But tell you what - why don't you do a survey of the greater masses:

"If money wasn't an issue - what car would you drive?

a: a 1985 clapped out Holden Barina
b: a 2013 brand new Lamborghini Aventador"

$50 says if that question is asked (without any bias inferred by the asker) almost everyone will choose Option B. I await your response with a full survey, control group and statistical analysis to prove me wrong.

I never doubt your motives to be noble and well intentioned, but they remain just that - well intentioned but not grounded in a system that could work.


What's so hard about answering the question: Is petrol a finite resource? The answer is yes. Is there a manistream alternative? The answer is no. Do you think we should be conserving petrol until an alternative is found. My answer is yes. Your answer is, what does it matter as long as people can afford to pay for it. I'll side with the hippiesif your alternative is toignore the problemin the first place. That you can't think beyond your generation speaks volumes... that you label the hippies as hippies and refuse to take a side speaks volumes... that you don't accept that you may well need to restrain yourself given the finite resources that we have available speaks volumes. At some point my friend, you're going to have to consider something other than what you want. then again, you have free will and an entitlement complex to go with it, so you probably don't believe that it's your problem. Just an observation.

My answer is that as Petrol becomes Scarcer - the price rises (as we have seen in NZ), which then limits the consumption of Petrol (as not everyone can afford it).

You still didn't answer the question though - Who decides and how is it decided? in a free market economy - Market driven forces (aka Greed) decide. Is it elegant? sort of. Is it effective? definitely. Is it right? Probably not.

In your system who replaces the Market Driven forces and What method do they use to make change? The who I would wager is El Banko NZo - but the how is far more difficult and so far your only response has been a BJ allocated system

I will restrain myself when everyone else does - not before.

Why should I consider anything other than what I want? I work hard to achieve what I want and as you quite rightly pointed out, I have free will and rights to enjoy the fruits of my Labour - is that entitlement, Maybe if I asked for what I wanted without being willing to work for it.


They don't have to change. If they don't change in the slightest the entire system would work. That people will change may well have both positive and negative consequences, but I'm putting my money (and will if I can get to a stage where I have it to burn without adversely affecting my family) on people being reasonable in response to the change.

If it will work as you say it will then provide a proof - I will accept a mathematical, a graph showing the solution, Something that can be analysed and confirmed to work.


I'd be educating my kids as to what a pedophile is and asking them if they want to be looked after such a person. If they're happy, and whilst I will have huge reservations about it, it would be up to them and up to the pedophile, or should I say ex-pedophile. Ideally I'd execute anyone convicted of pedophilia or rape. I'm not so keen on such behaviour being given a second chance, but with any luck I'd be overruled and would accept that overruling on the basis that the majority would grant them a second chance.

I call Bull.

I have seen in your other posts that your family is important to you (as it should be, this is not a critique of those principles) but would you risk it on someones word only? especially a person whose 'condition' (I hate to use that term) you know has a very high chance of Re-Offending. Or would you require proof of change, would you require security measures to be put in place? I suspect the answer if you are honest with me and with yourself is of course you would want proof before you placed your child in a potential dangerous situation. There is no shame or stigma with asking for Proof - it is one of the fundamentals that many institutions (science, Law etc.) are based on.

So why would you ridicule me so for asking the same - I ask for proof that humanity wouldn't try and screw each other over in order to ofset the long and bloody history of us doing so.


It's like saying, would you trust a currency trader to run your country.

Well, I wouldn't 'trust' them implicitly, but no more than I would trust a politician either. But should a Currency Trader be the best option for a countries Leader - then yes I would have to 'trust' them to run the country.

[mashman]

Its simply a case of one guy with way too much faith in a system to see that it simply isn't time for it yet.

That may well be, I am open to that, yet I know different... we're never going to know unless an alternative is floated and people are asked. I don't stand alone.

[bogan]

That may well be, I am open to that, yet I know different... we're never going to know unless an alternative is floated and people are asked. I don't stand alone.

This is the part you guys don't get though, an RBE is not a choice, it is an evolution. Society may evolve to that state, initially in small groups which then do better and multiply; but we do not yet have the 'plenty' that is the cornerstone of an RBE.

[mashman]

I will restrain myself when everyone else does - not before.

That's all it takes. But if you are unwilling to give people that trust, how can they prove themselves trustworthy? You say that some people won't take part and "bludge", so you use that as an excuse not to try. Yet you live in a society that does just that and accept it?

[mansell]

There is the rub, respect is earned rather than demanded.

My point about this is we live in a society that seems to respect a person more for their ability to kick a ball than a person who wins a Nobel Prize in Chemistry and then donates a large chunk of his award to a university.

[mashman]

This is the part you guys don't get though, an RBE is not a choice, it is an evolution. Society may evolve to that state, initially in small groups which then do better and multiply; but we do not yet have the 'plenty' that is the cornerstone of an RBE.

Of course it's a choice. You have to elect to try it before you can try it. Before that, you need to know that it exists. As I've said, the majority of people I have spoken to about NOW (an R.B.E. as a goal) state that they would give it a go. They didn't know about an alternative until they learned of it. I reckon it'll take 10 years to get to a full R.B.E. implementation from being voted in to boom. The first 3 years after being voted in will be to gather all of the alternatives together, R.B.E. as the preferred model. But the current system will absolutely be one of the choices. LVT, Social Credit, Universal Basic Income etc... If the R.B.E. has been chosen, then it's game on as the population will have voted for it because they accept and trust it as a solution. That's 3 years of "education". I believe it's more than enough.

I wish to be here to see all of that happen. I may not be, it may take too long to get to the point were people are ready for it. Do I want it NOW? Youbetcha. Do I expect it to come any time soon? Youbethca. Am I willing to wait? Youbetcha. What's the mot important factor in regard to the timeline? Edumacationecha. Then it's a true choice.

[bogan]

Of course it's a choice. You have to elect to try it before you can try it. Before that, you need to know that it exists. As I've said, the majority of people I have spoken to about NOW (an R.B.E. as a goal) state that they would give it a go. They didn't know about an alternative until they learned of it. I reckon it'll take 10 years to get to a full R.B.E. implementation from being voted in to boom. The first 3 years after being voted in will be to gather all of the alternatives together, R.B.E. as the preferred model. But the current system will absolutely be one of the choices. LVT, Social Credit, Universal Basic Income etc... If the R.B.E. has been chosen, then it's game on as the population will have voted for it because they accept and trust it as a solution. That's 3 years of "education". I believe it's more than enough.

I wish to be here to see all of that happen. I may not be, it may take too long to get to the point were people are ready for it. Do I want it NOW? Youbetcha. Do I expect it to come any time soon? Youbethca. Am I willing to wait? Youbetcha. What's the mot important factor in regard to the timeline? Edumacationecha. Then it's a true choice.

Wrong, there is a reason why nobody has any effective plans for a democratic transition; it is simply because the system cannot work that way. If you want to accelerate the timeline, progress the goals of an RBE withint the bounds of financial system; greater automation/education, pay off all debts etc...

[mashman]

Wrong, there is a reason why nobody has any effective plans for a democratic transition; it is simply because the system cannot work that way. If you want to accelerate the timeline, progress the goals of an RBE withint the bounds of financial system; greater automation/education, pay off all debts etc...

The financial system is a measure of human activity. Yet human activity is bound by the limits of finance. If finance is bound by human activity, then you can value what you like how you like. Who is to tell you that you can't?

[Ocean1]

The financial system is a measure of human activity. Yet human activity is bound by the limits of finance. If finance is bound by human activity, then you can value what you like how you like. Who is to tell you that you can't?

Me.

Finance, (the quantity of cash in the system) is already a function of human activity. So if there's limits to available cash it's caused by limited human productive activity.

Only fools believe it's pulled out of the tooth fairies arse under orders from the wicked banks and that removing it would somehow make everything "better".

[bogan]

The financial system is a measure of human activity. Yet human activity is bound by the limits of finance. If finance is bound by human activity, then you can value what you like how you like. Who is to tell you that you can't?

It's not as bound as you like to think. Money reflects a resource cost, if money were not a thing, we still couldn't all have lambourghinis, simply due to the number of man hours and materials that need to go into them. Once society and technology has matured to the point where people don't need as much, and can create a lot more, then money will be superseded by an RBE, but not before.

[oldrider]

My point about this is we live in a society that seems to respect a person more for their ability to kick a ball than a person who wins a Nobel Prize in Chemistry and then donates a large chunk of his award to a university.

Well when schools go to so much trouble to gain or retain people/pupils? more for their prowess on a rugby field than in the class room, you have a point!

My point is if industry and commerce requires specifically educated people, industry and commerce should provide a share of the cost for the service!

Currently sporting entertainment would seem to be the dominant force shaping the education system in New Zealand, who is paying for that? :confused:

[mashman]

It's not as bound as you like to think. Money reflects a resource cost, if money were not a thing, we still couldn't all have lambourghinis, simply due to the number of man hours and materials that need to go into them. Once society and technology has matured to the point where people don't need as much, and can create a lot more, then money will be superseded by an RBE, but not before.

If we decided that making lambourghinis was the goal and we decided to train as many people as possible to build them that would change. The point being that we could because we chose to. I agree though, we're not mature enough, but that's the whole point behind the education and the goal. You know how and you have a target. Similarly with putting more teachers into classrooms. It is entirely possible financially, just pay the current teacher half of their salary. Under a financial system the existing teacher will have to make some drastic lifestyle changes in order to survive "comfortably". Under NOW, they'd lose nothing, we'd gain an extra teacher in the class and the financial system would know no better. They will consume the same amount of food, electricity etc... that they already have been consuming. I'm fully aware that there is more to it than that, but the end game is to produce financials innit? What does it matter how we structure our society and what we value effort and production at to reach the goal as long as the financial target is met?

[mashman]

Me.

Finance, (the quantity of cash in the system) is already a function of human activity. So if there's limits to available cash it's caused by limited human productive activity.

Only fools believe it's pulled out of the tooth fairies arse under orders from the wicked banks and that removing it would somehow make everything "better".

Ok.

You can't just revalue activity? funny, isn't that what inflation does?

So despite one of the lead economists in the country going on television and stating that that is exactly how it is produced, you deny it to be true? I am happy to be called a fool if that is the criteria and your point of view is the alternative.

[bogan]

If we decided that making lambourghinis was the goal and we decided to train as many people as possible to build them that would change. The point being that we could because we chose to. I agree though, we're not mature enough, but that's the whole point behind the education and the goal. You know how and you have a target. Similarly with putting more teachers into classrooms. It is entirely possible financially, just pay the current teacher half of their salary. Under a financial system the existing teacher will have to make some drastic lifestyle changes in order to survive "comfortably". Under NOW, they'd lose nothing, we'd gain an extra teacher in the class and the financial system would know no better. They will consume the same amount of food, electricity etc... that they already have been consuming. I'm fully aware that there is more to it than that, but the end game is to produce financials innit? What does it matter how we structure our society and what we value effort and production at to reach the goal as long as the financial target is met?

It's a metaphor... :facepalm:

My god, I'm just staggered that after all this, you still don't have the slightest grasp of what you're talking about or the problems it faces. I mean, you constantly preach other's have to learn, yet the basics are just so far beyond you it has gone past being a joke.

[mashman]

It's a metaphor... :facepalm:

My god, I'm just staggered that after all this, you still don't have the slightest grasp of what you're talking about or the problems it faces. I mean, you constantly preach other's have to learn, yet the basics are just so far beyond you it has gone past being a joke.

I know it was :facepalm:.

I told you that you'd have to separate the two systems. You have demonstrated repeatedly that you are incapable of doing so. Then you attack what you believe my knowledge level is and go off on one from there. I gave you an example with a teacher before. Use it and tell me why that won't work, in detail and with a full explanation.

[bogan]

I know it was :facepalm:.

I told you that you'd have to separate the two systems. You have demonstrated repeatedly that you are incapable of doing so. Then you attack what you believe my knowledge level is and go off on one from there. I gave you an example with a teacher before. Use it and tell me why that won't work, in detail and with a full explanation.

Money wasn't involved in that metaphor at all. Or do you mean separating things from reality? Just because I don't agree with you, doesn't mean I am incapable from seeing things from your perspective; though I guess it does make a nice sheltered argument for you to hide behind and maintain your ignorance.

[Ocean1]

Ok.

You can't just revalue activity? funny, isn't that what inflation does?

So despite one of the lead economists in the country going on television and stating that that is exactly how it is produced, you deny it to be true? I am happy to be called a fool if that is the criteria and your point of view is the alternative.

You can change the units used to quantify the product of human activities, and yes inflation does that, but you can't change the value of the product itself without fucking with the market.

Yes, I know you think the fact that money is produced almost free means it therefore should be available to anyone who wants some. That, more than anything else is what identifies you as a simpleton, a fool or a con-man. Find me an economist that denies a link between product and monetary value and I'll show you someone attempting to fuck with the market.

[TheDemonLord]

That's all it takes. But if you are unwilling to give people that trust, how can they prove themselves trustworthy? You say that some people won't take part and "bludge", so you use that as an excuse not to try. Yet you live in a society that does just that and accept it?

That is the Student's Fallacy:

'All jobs require experience, All experiance is gained with a Job.'

The solution is to put people in a position where if they fail to perform up to the required standard, it doesn't result in Catastrophic failure.

That last part is the key - Catastrophic Failure.

I am saying that in order to be able to fly a big commercial Airliner safely, someone has to prove first that they can handle a Robin/Cessna, then a multi-engined light aircract, then move up to a small commercial airliner and so on and so forth.

I am not stopping society at large from making changes to its habits that would show that it is ready to move to a RBE - I am just saying that changes need to happen first, not the other way round.

You are suggesting that you chuck a novice pilot in the seat of a A380 and tell him go for it - Sure there is a good chance he will be fine, but if something goes wrong, it results in a catastrophic accident.

[mashman]

Money wasn't involved in that metaphor at all. Or do you mean separating things from reality? Just because I don't agree with you, doesn't mean I am incapable from seeing things from your perspective; though I guess it does make a nice sheltered argument for you to hide behind and maintain your ignorance.

:rofl:......................

[mashman]

You can change the units used to quantify the product of human activities, and yes inflation does that, but you can't change the value of the product itself without fucking with the market.

Yes, I know you think the fact that money is produced almost free means it therefore should be available to anyone who wants some. That, more than anything else is what identifies you as a simpleton, a fool or a con-man. Find me an economist that denies a link between product and monetary value and I'll show you someone attempting to fuck with the market.

So you can't revalue activity? Coz price fixing says otherwise, as does the existence of the commerce commission.

Not at all. I'm against using it period, remember. So you're saying that the economist that went on national television and stated that money was plucked out of thin air is wrong? I have no doubt economists will see a link between the two, because at that point in time the money has already been created.

[mashman]

That is the Student's Fallacy:

'All jobs require experience, All experiance is gained with a Job.'

The solution is to put people in a position where if they fail to perform up to the required standard, it doesn't result in Catastrophic failure.

That last part is the key - Catastrophic Failure.

I am saying that in order to be able to fly a big commercial Airliner safely, someone has to prove first that they can handle a Robin/Cessna, then a multi-engined light aircract, then move up to a small commercial airliner and so on and so forth.

I am not stopping society at large from making changes to its habits that would show that it is ready to move to a RBE - I am just saying that changes need to happen first, not the other way round.

You are suggesting that you chuck a novice pilot in the seat of a A380 and tell him go for it - Sure there is a good chance he will be fine, but if something goes wrong, it results in a catastrophic accident.

A Fallacy eh. So there isn't a first time for a take off? or the first time for a landing? And yet they succeed in not crashing planes into the floor at any great rate, or even at all. Sure throwing them straight into a commercial airliner from a light aircraft would be dangerous, but the outcome is far from predictable, in fact the odds would favour the pilot.

I wasn't saying that the changes need to be there first, I'm saying that the willingness to respond to a proposed change is there. Educate. Then ask.

That may well be what I'm suggesting and we won't know for sure unless we try or at least as people if they would be keen to give it a try.

[bogan]

A Fallacy eh. So there isn't a first time for a take off? or the first time for a landing? And yet they succeed in not crashing planes into the floor at any great rate, or even at all. Sure throwing them straight into a commercial airliner from a light aircraft would be dangerous, but the outcome is far from predictable, in fact the odds would favour the pilot.

I wasn't saying that the changes need to be there first, I'm saying that the willingness to respond to a proposed change is there. Educate. Then ask.

Training and preventative testing are wonderful things mashy.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fb/FSX_Cover.jpg

Pity we have neither been trained for, nor successfully trialled an RBE.

[mashman]

Training and preventative testing are wonderful things mashy.

Pity we have neither been trained for, nor successfully trialled an RBE.

Not saying they aren't.

Shame it hasn't been trialled at a country level, yup... as it will succeed.

[bogan]

Not saying they aren't.

Shame it hasn't been trialled at a country level, yup... as it will succeed.

You might want to check out the findings/plans of the Venus Project then, not a huge trial, but things like this have to work up from somewhere.

[mashman]

You might want to check out the findings/plans of the Venus Project then, not a huge trial, but things like this have to work up from somewhere.

I have. They don't have a transition plan. It needs to be "trialled" at a country level if it is to be demonstrated properly. Educate. Then ask.

[bogan]

I have. They don't have a transition plan. It needs to be "trialled" at a country level if it is to be demonstrated properly. Educate. Then ask.

From their site...


A circular city would be a transitional phase and could evolve from a semi-cooperative money-oriented society to a resource based economy. This could be the prototype for a series of cities to be constructed in various places throughout the world. The rate of progress will depend on the availability of funds raised during the early stages and the people who identify with , participate in, and support the aims and direction of The Venus Project.

Educate yourself, then type.

Edit: also, I shit you not, I hadn't read this part when I posted the evolution stuff this morning


As these new communities develop and become more widely accepted, they may very well form the basis of a new civilization, preferably through the process of evolution rather than revolution.

[mashman]

From their site...

Educate yourself, then type.

Edit: also, I shit you not, I hadn't read this part when I posted the evolution stuff this morning

I've never seen that page before. Thanks for the linky.

Touche.

Totally agree... it does need to be an evolution. I'd do it differently, but will, as always, support their efforts if that becomes the method of choice for humanity moving forwards. Tis slower than it needs to be, but it'll be interesting to see how the financial system reacts. I guess the lack of funding available for such a project shows the current state of mind. It's a shame we can't fund them and give them their shot... especially as we have a city that could do with a little TLC and those sorts of building designs.

[Ocean1]

So you can't revalue activity? Coz price fixing says otherwise, as does the existence of the commerce commission.

Not at all. I'm against using it period, remember. So you're saying that the economist that went on national television and stated that money was plucked out of thin air is wrong? I have no doubt economists will see a link between the two, because at that point in time the money has already been created.

...............


You can change the units used to quantify the product of human activities, and yes inflation does that, but you can't change the value of the product itself without fucking with the market.

Yes, I know you think the fact that money is produced almost free means it therefore should be available to anyone who wants some. That, more than anything else is what identifies you as a simpleton, a fool or a con-man. Find me an economist that denies a link between product and monetary value and I'll show you someone attempting to fuck with the market.

[Ocean1]

Pity we have neither been trained for, nor successfully trialled an RBE.

We have. Every non-monetary economy in history was a RBE. Every one of them crashed and burned.

[bogan]

We have. Every non-monetary economy in history was a RBE. Every one of them crashed and burned.

Those were RBEs of scarcity though, and RBE of plenty has a much higher chance of success.

[Ocean1]

Those were RBEs of scarcity though, and RBE of plenty has a much higher chance of success.

Cause and effect, dude. If you have everything anyone wants there's no point in actually managing distribution at all, is there?

If you don't then allocating resources to those that don't produce as much as they receive is a sure-fire recipe for more crashing and burning, it's just not sustainable.

One thing amongst all this bullshit is correct: it'll take a quantum change in the evolution of human behaviour to allow any RBE to successfully work: you need them to all be fully functional adults. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_marshmallow_experiment

[bogan]

Cause and effect, dude. If you have everything anyone wants there's no point in actually managing distribution at all, is there?

If you don't then allocating resources to those that don't produce as much as they receive is a sure-fire recipe for more crashing and burning, it's just not sustainable.

One thing amongst all this bullshit is correct: it'll take a quantum change in the evolution of human behaviour to allow any RBE to successfully work: you need them to all be fully functional adults. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_marshmallow_experiment

Exactly, and that is an excellent way to put it; it is also what people often overlook about the concept. The removal of money is the effect, the cause is an evolution of production technology and human behavior. It's what the venus project is modeled on.

[mashman]

Cause and effect, dude. If you have everything anyone wants there's no point in actually managing distribution at all, is there?

If you don't then allocating resources to those that don't produce as much as they receive is a sure-fire recipe for more crashing and burning, it's just not sustainable.

One thing amongst all this bullshit is correct: it'll take a quantum change in the evolution of human behaviour to allow any RBE to successfully work: you need them to all be fully functional adults. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_marshmallow_experiment

If you don't manage distribution, then yeah, absolutely there will be crashing and burning... but I don't see why having everything anyone wants would suddenly case the management of distribution to stop. Plus if that were true, why did human beings innovate given that they had everything? Yet here we are.

Hang on a minute, that statement is a bit arse about face. The environment of the experiment was changed in order to illicit behaviour. To that end it supports the change of environment being the driver of human behaviour and not vice versa as you claim. Also in your linky the experiment was shown to have bias when it came to evaluating the latter year results.

You're gonna have to try much harder than that. Bogan may roll over and play dead like a good little boy, but the conclusion that you have derived from your analysis is flawed from the get go imho.

[bogan]

Bogan may roll over and play dead like a good little boy

:laugh: how the fuck do you figure that? I got sick of you playing the ad-hominem excuses so went straight to the guy who coined the term R.B.E, to find he agrees with pretty much everything I've been saying; and not a mention of million dollar hammers anywhere from him :rolleyes:

[mashman]

:laugh: how the fuck do you figure that? I got sick of you playing the ad-hominem excuses so went straight to the guy who coined the term R.B.E, to find he agrees with pretty much everything I've been saying; and not a mention of million dollar hammers anywhere from him :rolleyes:

Oh I dunno... probably coz ya did.

Yes The Venus Project are going to rely on the current system in order to makes a start, and as I said, I think that's too slow.

[bogan]

Oh I dunno... probably coz ya did.

Yes The Venus Project are going to rely on the current system in order to makes a start, and as I said, I think that's too slow.

So you just ignored all the bits about the need to change people's ways, and increase the tech base of such a society?

Actually, here's an idea, go on their forums and educate yourself.

[mashman]

So you just ignored all the bits about the need to change people's ways, and increase the tech base of such a society?

Actually, here's an idea, go on their forums and educate yourself.

People need to change, no, no they don't. As the experiment that Ocean posted shows, people respond to the environment that is on offer. We don't have to change, but we will in response to a potential environment change.

Nope. I've said before that the tech is important. I've also said before that getting the financial system out of the equation will rapidly speed up the implementation of that tech.

Unknot yer britches son.

[bogan]

People need to change, no, no they don't. As the experiment that Ocean posted shows, people respond to the environment that is on offer. We don't have to change, but we will in response to a potential environment change.

Nope. I've said before that the tech is important. I've also said before that getting the financial system out of the equation will rapidly speed up the implementation of that tech.

Unknot yer britches son.

I think you need to stop using the term R.B.E, cos your crap is nothing like what those dudes are going for.

I'm not surprised you don't want to educate yourself, you seem more like one who wants to bleat instead of making an actual difference. Just think how much quicker those guys could get funding if only they sold hammers :facepalm:

[mashman]

I think you need to stop using the term R.B.E, cos your crap is nothing like what those dudes are going for.

I'm not surprised you don't want to educate yourself, you seem more like one who wants to bleat instead of making an actual difference. Just think how much quicker those guys could get funding if only they sold hammers :facepalm:

Yes it is.

I went and had a look. I see how they are going to do it. I believe it can be done differently. I support them in everything they do because the goal of TVP is an R.B.E. as is the goal of NOW. The difference is how we want to get there. It could be that "theirs" is the first stage, then "mine" is the second stand. Who knows. But the goals are the same. How they run will be the same (coz, shhh, but pssst, NOW and TVP will hopefully discuss how things should work along with the govt, councils, business leaders, industry representatives etc... and a consensus drawn up to present to the public for them to vote for).

[bogan]

Yes it is.

I went and had a look. I see how they are going to do it. I believe it can be done differently. I support them in everything they do because the goal of TVP is an R.B.E. as is the goal of NOW. The difference is how we want to get there. It could be that "theirs" is the first stage, then "mine" is the second stand. Who knows. But the goals are the same. How they run will be the same (coz, shhh, but pssst, NOW and TVP will hopefully discuss how things should work along with the govt, councils, business leaders, industry representatives etc... and a consensus drawn up to present to the public for them to vote for).

I think you need to have a better look, perhaps ask yourself why they plan on building a city, instead of using and existing one.

The goals are not the same, you just want to be rid of money, they want to grow into such a prosperous a society where money has no meaning.

[mashman]

I think you need to have a better look, perhaps ask yourself why they plan on building a city, instead of using and existing one.

The goals are not the same, you just want to be rid of money, they want to grow into such a prosperous a society where money has no meaning.

I said nothing about where it would be built. Look, you go ahead and put words into my mouth all you like.

:facepalm:

[bogan]

I said nothing about where it would be built. Look, you go ahead and put words into my mouth all you like.

:facepalm:

You want the country to convert at the drop of a hat, that means we would be stuck with current cities and production tech, and all the inefficiencies they contain (people most definitely included in that).

[mashman]

You want the country to convert at the drop of a hat, that means we would be stuck with current cities and production tech, and all the inefficiencies they contain (people most definitely included in that).

I'm not expecting anything at the drop of a hat at all, you are making that shit up. You're not getting any better at putting words into my mouth are ya :laugh:. Can you explain to me what is so hard about Mr Fresco's designs? (I'm not bagging the guy in the slightest as I love him for his wisdom, his vision, his passion and pretty much agree with everything he stands for). Given that he has stated that the technology is available, what are the limiting factors? We could start in the centre of Chch if "we" chose. There's nothing to say that we couldn't. But absolutely, a green fields site would be more ideal.

When the chips were down in Chch the majority stood up and got stuck in. Would they do the same given the TVP goals? I reckon they might, but we'd never know until they were asked. Given Mr Fresco's and the purpose i.e. earthquake proofing etc... I can't think of many other places in NZ that would benefit more or indeed deserve it more. The idea of virtualising i.e. divorcing ourselves from, the financial system is to facilitate the development of the production tech required to name but 1 thing. It's not the personal crusade you seem to think it is. However I cannot stop you from seeing it that way.

[bogan]

I'm not expecting anything at the drop of a hat at all, you are making that shit up. You're not getting any better at putting words into my mouth are ya :laugh:. Can you explain to me what is so hard about Mr Fresco's designs? (I'm not bagging the guy in the slightest as I love him for his wisdom, his vision, his passion and pretty much agree with everything he stands for). Given that he has stated that the technology is available, what are the limiting factors? We could start in the centre of Chch if "we" chose. There's nothing to say that we couldn't. But absolutely, a green fields site would be more ideal.

When the chips were down in Chch the majority stood up and got stuck in. Would they do the same given the TVP goals? I reckon they might, but we'd never know until they were asked. Given Mr Fresco's and the purpose i.e. earthquake proofing etc... I can't think of many other places in NZ that would benefit more or indeed deserve it more. The idea of virtualising i.e. divorcing ourselves from, the financial system is to facilitate the development of the production tech required to name but 1 thing. It's not the personal crusade you seem to think it is. However I cannot stop you from seeing it that way.

So how long after said vote would the money be done away with then?

[mashman]

So how long after said vote would the money be done away with then?

I would hope that every alternative would be put up every time we voted. I'm optimistic, so if NOW got in in 2017, I'd go for 2020. 3 years of education should be enough... however we may end up with an LBT or UBI or Social Credit/double currency typed system as an interim. All depends on folk dunnit.

[bogan]

I would hope that every alternative would be put up every time we voted. I'm optimistic, so if NOW got in in 2017, I'd go for 2020. 3 years of education should be enough... however we may end up with an LBT or UBI or Social Credit/double currency typed system as an interim. All depends on folk dunnit.

Three years? so we will be using the same cities and production infrastructure then.

[mashman]

Three years? so we will be using the same cities and production infrastructure then.

If we do nothing in those 3 years, the yes, probably. If we do lots in those 3 years (which will be one of the goals), then we'll have a head start. That's getting in to the detail of areas that others will shape, those wiv da knowledgez... but I don't see it as unrealistic. Everything has to start somewhere.

[bogan]

I'm not expecting anything at the drop of a hat at all, you are making that shit up.


If we do nothing in those 3 years, the yes, probably.

So, back to my original question, why are TVP so focused on the city/infrastructure tech, and you aren't?

[mashman]

So, back to my original question, why are TVP so focused on the city/infrastructure tech, and you aren't?

I don't remember seeing you ask that question. Certainly not in such an obvious way. You did say


So you just ignored all the bits about the need to change people's ways, and increase the tech base of such a society?

At which point I said


Nope. I've said before that the tech is important. I've also said before that getting the financial system out of the equation will rapidly speed up the implementation of that tech.

I'd hardly say that I wasn't focused on it. But to answer your question, I take it as a given that we'd be getting as stuck into city/infrastructure tech, should it be the will of the people. I have, in the past, offered infrastructure solutions, but I'm not going to go into those again here.

I also said


If we do lots in those 3 years (which will be one of the goals), then we'll have a head start

Tis up to the population to decide how much we get done in those 3 years... well, that and the availability of money. After all, we need the people to build the tech as well as to build that which we'll have to do by hand and that can only be done given the money that is available for that task. I'm surprised you never made the connection. Perhaps you chose not to. Either way we are limited by what we decide we are limited to.

[bogan]

Tis up to the population to decide how much we get done in those 3 years... well, that and the availability of money. After all, we need the people to build the tech as well as to build that which we'll have to do by hand and that can only be done given the money that is available for that task. I'm surprised you never made the connection. Perhaps you chose not to. Either way we are limited by what we decide we are limited to.

You can't change a significant infrastructure in those three years, it just isn't possible with the man hours available. The point that TVP makes, is that we must prove we have both the resources, and the mindset to make an RBE work, before it gets off the ground. Essentially the difference is, you want to get bludgers voting for it then stuck with it, TVP wants to get the doers doing it on their own volition; I wonder which one has a chance of success :scratch: :laugh:

You should really join up the their site and get a better grip on what they have found, after all, they've had a lot of smart cookies working on the problem for a while now, and they probably know a bit more about the details of it than some whinger on the internet who still thinks selling million dollar hammers would be a good idea :facepalm:

[mashman]

You can't change a significant infrastructure in those three years, it just isn't possible with the man hours available. The point that TVP makes, is that we must prove we have both the resources, and the mindset to make an RBE work, before it gets off the ground. Essentially the difference is, you want to get bludgers voting for it then stuck with it, TVP wants to get the doers doing it on their own volition; I wonder which one has a chance of success :scratch: :laugh:

You should really join up the their site and get a better grip on what they have found, after all, they've had a lot of smart cookies working on the problem for a while now, and they probably know a bit more about the details of it than some whinger on the internet who still thinks selling million dollar hammers would be a good idea :facepalm:

I never said you could, but I said that we could make a start. Even the TVP will need to start. If they've done the legwork then it would be silly to try to start without leveraging that work. You seem to think these sorts of things won't take place. You seem to think that NOW will be a hit and hope that's full of expensive hammers and ignores anything that any other R.B.E. punter has put forwards. You're wrong. Wronger than wrong. But telling me that I should join up (which I did when someone mentioned them to me 4 years ago mebee, and also read TVP Magazine when time allows and watch the odd Fresco tutorial etc...) and that I should learn about how to do everything is moderately amusing given that those tasks will be defined by those who will be more skilled when the time comes. That and your statement sounds as though you don't think the people in any given sphere of endeavour in NZ would say, hey, before we start, do we have the resources for this?

Tell you what. Take me away from the NOW throne you seem to think that I'm going to be sitting at. I won't be anywhere near it. A really radical thought would be, hey bogan, you take on the learnings of the TVP and join NOW.

[bogan]

I never said you could, but I said that we could make a start. Even the TVP will need to start. If they've done the legwork then it would be silly to try to start without leveraging that work. You seem to think these sorts of things won't take place. You seem to think that NOW will be a hit and hope that's full of expensive hammers and ignores anything that any other R.B.E. punter has put forwards. You're wrong. Wronger than wrong. But telling me that I should join up (which I did when someone mentioned them to me 4 years ago mebee, and also read TVP Magazine when time allows and watch the odd Fresco tutorial etc...) and that I should learn about how to do everything is moderately amusing given that those tasks will be defined by those who will be more skilled when the time comes. That and your statement sounds as though you don't think the people in any given sphere of endeavour in NZ would say, hey, before we start, do we have the resources for this?

Tell you what. Take me away from the NOW throne you seem to think that I'm going to be sitting at. I won't be anywhere near it. A really radical thought would be, hey bogan, you take on the learnings of the TVP and join NOW.

Then why does TVP place such importance on the infrastructure side of things, and NOW just ignores that part? TVP has done a lot of research and decided that while we have the tech, it is not yet implemented on such a scale to make an RBE possible, so it must be built from the ground up. That is why TVP has a decent chance, and NOW is just a clusterfuck. So no, while I have taken on the learnings of TVP, they in fact prevent me from joining NOW, not encourage it.

[mashman]

Then why does TVP place such importance on the infrastructure side of things, and NOW just ignores that part? TVP has done a lot of research and decided that while we have the tech, it is not yet implemented on such a scale to make an RBE possible, so it must be built from the ground up. That is why TVP has a decent chance, and NOW is just a clusterfuck. So no, while I have taken on the learnings of TVP, they in fact prevent me from joining NOW, not encourage it.

I would imagine TVP have a lot more going on than the infrastructure. Sigh. NOW doesn't ignore it as mentioned earlier. Yes TVP have done a lot of research and they have decided how they want to go about doing things. Good on them. Yes TVP have a better chance than NOW at getting the ball rolling. NOW is very much a work in progress, it's barely 5 years old v's TVP which is probably about half a century, meh, TVP's models are there to be adopted.

So you wouldn't join up with something that you don't believe you can enhance eh. Perhaps you don't think your input would make any difference to NOW? and by default its evolution.

[bogan]

NOW doesn't ignore it as mentioned earlier.

So you wouldn't join up with something that you don't believe you can enhance eh. Perhaps you don't think your input would make any difference to NOW? and by default its evolution.

Well they do ignore it, as three years is not enough. Hell, 30 years would be barely adequate for country wide adoption of those sort of changes.

I wouldn't join up with something that is shit. The best difference I can make to it is consigning it to oblivion, though you're doing as good a job of that as I am I think.

[mashman]

Well they do ignore it, as three years is not enough. Hell, 30 years would be barely adequate for country wide adoption of those sort of changes.

I wouldn't join up with something that is shit. The best difference I can make to it is consigning it to oblivion, though you're doing as good a job of that as I am I think.

:facepalm:

https://forum-s3.pinside.com/201212/527542/57373.jpg

[bogan]

:facepalm:

https://forum-s3.pinside.com/201212/527542/57373.jpg

Yeh, that's pretty much the common reaction to NOW. And then laughter as you realise that some blokes actually think it'll work :lol:

[mashman]

Yeh, that's pretty much the common reaction to NOW. And then laughter as you realise that some blokes actually think it'll work :lol:

Meh...........

[bogan]

Meh...........

And here we see the mashy in his natural habitat, when faced with logic contrary to his beliefs, he seeks to reduce the debate down a few notches so all will forget the point at hand. But that's ok, as it is clearly (to everyone else) a coping mechanism for being part of such a shitty idea that will never come to fruition.

[TheDemonLord]

I was actually having a followup thought about this whilst on a ride the other day.

This is one RBE in fiction that works well in a way that could work in real life.....


Star Trek.

There are 2 key points that Star Trek addresses that would make an RBE work:

1: Aliens

Humans love tribalism (Us vs Them) we really do, Bikers vs Cagers, Christians vs Islam, Religon vs Athiesm, NOW vs TVP etc. etc. - this all really tends to go against the large scale community spirit needed. - however if we discovered Aliens (equal or superior to humans) then it would stop a lot of the infighting as now Humanity has to unite against the common Threat (regardless of whether the aliens were peaceful or not - gotta love that Xenophobic tendancies)

2: Replicator technology

In short -in the ST universe, We have found a way to turn energy into Matter (an expansion on E=MC2) and so all food items are made using replicators (turning lots of energy into the objects desired) which means there is in effect never a shortage of resources (except for certain things that are too complex to replicate, or in some cases personal Preference)

In the ST Universe - everyone could own a ferrari or a Lamborghini as it could be replicated within a short time period, this would over time diminish the need for desirable goods....

[mashman]

And here we see the mashy in his natural habitat, when faced with logic contrary to his beliefs, he seeks to reduce the debate down a few notches so all will forget the point at hand. But that's ok, as it is clearly (to everyone else) a coping mechanism for being part of such a shitty idea that will never come to fruition.

Ok, facepalm one was placed there because you didn't accept that I said that the first 3 years would be a start i.e. planning, getting those on board who would like to make certain things a reality.

The triple facepalm ignores the ad-hominem entirely and is there in response to you saying that you wouldn't join something that you thought you could enhance.

:facepalm: that one is for the post above. As amusing as it was, it serves absolutely no purpose.

[mashman]

I was actually having a followup thought about this whilst on a ride the other day.

This is one RBE in fiction that works well in a way that could work in real life.....


Star Trek.

There are 2 key points that Star Trek addresses that would make an RBE work:

1: Aliens

Humans love tribalism (Us vs Them) we really do, Bikers vs Cagers, Christians vs Islam, Religon vs Athiesm, NOW vs TVP etc. etc. - this all really tends to go against the large scale community spirit needed. - however if we discovered Aliens (equal or superior to humans) then it would stop a lot of the infighting as now Humanity has to unite against the common Threat (regardless of whether the aliens were peaceful or not - gotta love that Xenophobic tendancies)

2: Replicator technology

In short -in the ST universe, We have found a way to turn energy into Matter (an expansion on E=MC2) and so all food items are made using replicators (turning lots of energy into the objects desired) which means there is in effect never a shortage of resources (except for certain things that are too complex to replicate, or in some cases personal Preference)

In the ST Universe - everyone could own a ferrari or a Lamborghini as it could be replicated within a short time period, this would over time diminish the need for desirable goods....

:laugh: so all we need is aliens with replicators. Shouldn't be too hard to find. Although we'd likely try to shoot them down so that we could autopsy them and find out how to kill them should they ever return.

[bogan]

I was actually having a followup thought about this whilst on a ride the other day.

This is one RBE in fiction that works well in a way that could work in real life.....


Star Trek.

There are 2 key points that Star Trek addresses that would make an RBE work:

1: Aliens

Humans love tribalism (Us vs Them) we really do, Bikers vs Cagers, Christians vs Islam, Religon vs Athiesm, NOW vs TVP etc. etc. - this all really tends to go against the large scale community spirit needed. - however if we discovered Aliens (equal or superior to humans) then it would stop a lot of the infighting as now Humanity has to unite against the common Threat (regardless of whether the aliens were peaceful or not - gotta love that Xenophobic tendancies)

2: Replicator technology

In short -in the ST universe, We have found a way to turn energy into Matter (an expansion on E=MC2) and so all food items are made using replicators (turning lots of energy into the objects desired) which means there is in effect never a shortage of resources (except for certain things that are too complex to replicate, or in some cases personal Preference)

In the ST Universe - everyone could own a ferrari or a Lamborghini as it could be replicated within a short time period, this would over time diminish the need for desirable goods....

Be hard to balance the threat vs the benefits of tribalism, if that extra work just goes into a war effort, yeh we're united, but we'd be worse off anyway.

Replicators would be sweet, long way off though, 3DP is still too energy intensive to be a good option even for single material products; let alone complicated materials and functional product.

[bogan]

Ok, facepalm one was placed there because you didn't accept that I said that the first 3 years would be a start i.e. planning, getting those on board who would like to make certain things a reality.

The triple facepalm ignores the ad-hominem entirely and is there in response to you saying that you wouldn't join something that you thought you could enhance.

:facepalm: that one is for the post above. As amusing as it was, it serves absolutely no purpose.

You said three years from vote to implementation. And you admitted we would not be able to change infrastructure in that time; so it results in an RBE without the infrastructure TVP deems necesary to support one. So why do you think NOW knows better than TVP and their years of research?

Did I say that? I said I wouldn't join something that is shit, for that reason alone; it is simply not worth enhancing.

Just like you previous two ones? No purpose except to avoid the debate.

[mashman]

You said three years from vote to implementation. And you admitted we would not be able to change infrastructure in that time; so it results in an RBE without the infrastructure TVP deems necesary to support one. So why do you think NOW knows better than TVP and their years of research?

Did I say that? I said I wouldn't join something that is shit, for that reason alone; it is simply not worth enhancing.

Just like you previous two ones? No purpose except to avoid the debate.

Implementation of separating us from the financial system, yes. Where did I say we couldn't change infrastructure, as that is open ended and up to the people to decide. Oh dear lord you didn't think I meant that everything would be done and dusted in 3 years? Remember the bit where I said it would be a start. Have a facepalm :facepalm:.

Well that was the answer you gave to my question. You can't enhance what you think is shit... ya know, therefore making it less shit. You're not displaying, what I would call, the attitude that empires were built on... oh, hang on, forgot where I was and what time I am in.

They were the answers to your questions. You don't like them, as I knew you wouldn't so saved some time and posted facepalms.

[bogan]

Implementation of separating us from the financial system, yes. Where did I say we couldn't change infrastructure, as that is open ended and up to the people to decide. Oh dear lord you didn't think I meant that everything would be done and dusted in 3 years? Remember the bit where I said it would be a start. Have a facepalm :facepalm:.

Well that was the answer you gave to my question. You can't enhance what you think is shit... ya know, therefore making it less shit. You're not displaying, what I would call, the attitude that empires were built on... oh, hang on, forgot where I was and what time I am in.

Ok, so how long would it take until it is implemented and the money is gone? Once the money is gone it would have to be a viable RBE, and for that to be the case, we need advanced infrastructure as TVP point out.

Actually I am, as I promote a society that is sustainable, you promote one that is not, so no empire building will be possible.

[TheDemonLord]

Be hard to balance the threat vs the benefits of tribalism, if that extra work just goes into a war effort, yeh we're united, but we'd be worse off anyway.

Replicators would be sweet, long way off though, 3DP is still too energy intensive to be a good option even for single material products; let alone complicated materials and functional product.

I was more inferring that the Tribalism would happen anyway and would probably be the only way to get the entire world to unite in a common goal of the betterment of Humanity

and yes the Extra work would undoubtadley go into finding ways to kill them - yah know, for defence....

I hear that on the energy intensive side - Guess we need the Matter/Anti-Matter reactors of ST also :(

but then Almost all new inventions are horribly inefficient - just compare the first internal combustion engines to the Fire Breathing monsters we now have.

[bogan]

I was more inferring that the Tribalism would happen anyway and would probably be the only way to get the entire world to unite in a common goal of the betterment of Humanity

and yes the Extra work would undoubtadley go into finding ways to kill them - yah know, for defence....

I hear that on the energy intensive side - Guess we need the Matter/Anti-Matter reactors of ST also :(

but then Almost all new inventions are horribly inefficient - just compare the first internal combustion engines to the Fire Breathing monsters we now have.

Yeh, probably. Though I'd rather stick with money and an un-united world than get slaughtered by aliens if I'm honest; cos you can guarantee if a hostile spacefaring race turned up in force, our lack of railguns, plasma cannons, and pew-pew lazers would give us about as much chance as mashy's NOW has :laugh:

Big solar farms are probably the way to go, anti-matter is pretty hard to find.

True, but that did take quite a while, and they are still horribly inefficient.

[TheDemonLord]

Yeh, probably. Though I'd rather stick with money and an un-united world than get slaughtered by aliens if I'm honest; cos you can guarantee if a hostile spacefaring race turned up in force, our lack of railguns, plasma cannons, and pew-pew lazers would give us about as much chance as mashy's NOW has :laugh:

Big solar farms are probably the way to go, anti-matter is pretty hard to find.

True, but that did take quite a while, and they are still horribly inefficient.

Is it wrong that I want Railguns, Plasma Cannons and especially Pew-Pew Lazers?

Fusion Reactors are the way forward - just gotta figure a way to do it without melting everything, then when we have those down, we work on Matter/Anti-matter power generation

Stage 1 civilisation here we come.....

[mashman]

Ok, so how long would it take until it is implemented and the money is gone? Once the money is gone it would have to be a viable RBE, and for that to be the case, we need advanced infrastructure as TVP point out.

Actually I am, as I promote a society that is sustainable, you promote one that is not, so no empire building will be possible.

The money is to be gone within those 3 years. That may not eventuate as there will be alternatives offered. With any luck people will grasp NOW and will vote to divorce themselves from the financial system. Other that point in time I would say that we are an R.B.E. as during those 3 years plans will be drawn up for tech and infrastructure etc... The plans will draw heavily on TVP because as you say, they have done the research.

An R.B.E. does not require advanced infrastructure fore it to be classed as an R.B.E., but it allows for its development. An R.B.E. is about how things are done, one of the results of which will be advanced tech, infrastructure, healthcare, education etc... Would Mr Fresco agree with that description, yes, I believe he would.

Empire building?

[bogan]

Is it wrong that I want Railguns, Plasma Cannons and especially Pew-Pew Lazers?

Fusion Reactors are the way forward - just gotta figure a way to do it without melting everything, then when we have those down, we work on Matter/Anti-matter power generation

Stage 1 civilisation here we come.....

Of course not, but it is wrong to want targets for them before we have them :bleh: We also exhibit a distinct lack of cylons to protect us...

Yeh, you're probably right there. Orbital solar really needs space elevators first.

[mashman]

Bogan. Why do you think TVP, after all of these years, has made such slow progress given the obvious benefits? Do you think people think it's shit?


Yeh, that's pretty much the common reaction to TVP. And then laughter as you realise that some blokes actually think it'll work :lol:

[bogan]

The money is to be gone within those 3 years. That may not eventuate as there will be alternatives offered. With any luck people will grasp NOW and will vote to divorce themselves from the financial system. Other that point in time I would say that we are an R.B.E. as during those 3 years plans will be drawn up for tech and infrastructure etc... The plans will draw heavily on TVP because as you say, they have done the research.

An R.B.E. does not require advanced infrastructure fore it to be classed as an R.B.E., but it allows for its development. An R.B.E. is about how things are done, one of the results of which will be advanced tech, infrastructure, healthcare, education etc... Would Mr Fresco agree with that description, yes, I believe he would.

Empire building?

So, to summarise the salient points covered so far...

How will NOW come about? we will educate the people until they vote us in with the majority.

What about those who do not vote it in? they can leave and we will give them million dollar hammers in compensation for their land/assets.

How will NOW deal with national debt and foreign interests? Sell them million dollar hammers to pay it off.

How will NOW upgrade the production infrastructure to ensure an RBE is viable? slowly, and after we move to an RBE.

But if an RBE requires advanced infrastructure, won't this be more likely to fail when it is set up without that? Well it doesn't, those guys doing all their research and spending so much time on this problem are wrong.

What makes you think they are wrong? Well, I want free stuff NOW!

[bogan]

Bogan. Why do you think TVP, after all of these years, has made such slow progress given the obvious benefits? Do you think people think it's shit?

Changing the quote like that is a bit of a dick move mashy. They have made slow progress cos they are doing it right, planning for success is the term I'd use. People do think it is shit, which is why they are planning for success, to show them it is not shit, to show them it is not only doable, but of great benefit; because actions speak louder than words.

[mashman]

So, to summarise the salient points covered so far...

How will NOW come about? we will educate the people until they vote us in with the majority.

What about those who do not vote it in? they can leave and we will give them million dollar hammers in compensation for their land/assets.

How will NOW deal with national debt and foreign interests? Sell them million dollar hammers to pay it off.

How will NOW upgrade the production infrastructure to ensure an RBE is viable? slowly, and after we move to an RBE.

But if an RBE requires advanced infrastructure, won't this be more likely to fail when it is set up without that? Well it doesn't, those guys doing all their research and spending so much time on this problem are wrong.

What makes you think they are wrong? Well, I want free stuff NOW!

:facepalm:


Changing the quote like that is a bit of a dick move mashy. They have made slow progress cos they are doing it right, planning for success is the term I'd use. People do think it is shit, which is why they are planning for success, to show them it is not shit, to show them it is not only doable, but of great benefit; because actions speak louder than words.

Why? You don't think people think that? (http://theuklibertarian.com/2011/05/09/the-venus-project-and-zeitgeist-debunked/comment-page-1/). That you attribute that to me believing that by changing the quote leave the crown entirely with you.

They have made slow progress because they have not had the support they deserved from those in a position to give it. I've seen many Fresco clips from the 70's onwards and in next to none of them he discusses the need for the tech and infrastructure to come first. I reckon he's changing tack from where he has been to do as you say, and prove it.

[bogan]

:facepalm:



Why? You don't think people think that? (http://theuklibertarian.com/2011/05/09/the-venus-project-and-zeitgeist-debunked/comment-page-1/). That you attribute that to me believing that by changing the quote leave the crown entirely with you.

They have made slow progress because they have not had the support they deserved from those in a position to give it. I've seen many Fresco clips from the 70's onwards and in next to none of them he discusses the need for the tech and infrastructure to come first. I reckon he's changing tack from where he has been to do as you say, and prove it.

Feel free tocorrect with succinct answers if you feel I've missed something :innocent:

People think that, but I don't and it is not what I said, hence it being a dick move to change the quote.

Exactly, he is about 10-20 years further down the track from where your NOW is, and shit he has learned is probably best not ignored.

[mashman]

Feel free tocorrect with succinct answers if you feel I've missed something :innocent:

People think that, but I don't and it is not what I said, hence it being a dick move to change the quote.

Exactly, he is about 10-20 years further down the track from where your NOW is, and shit he has learned is probably best not ignored.

I nearly did, but then thought, nah, don't have to.

I don't think that of TVP either, but you don't seem to accept the opposite as an answer for the pace of the progress given that it has been being pushed for a minimum of 40 years. I think the lack of funding/interest comes from those not giving a shit more than it does from the need for careful planning. Again, just to make this absolutely crystal clear to you, that is not saying that it hadn't been carefully planned 40 years ago. Mr Fresco had already produced these sorts of designs 40 years ago. A lot of the technology required for construction had been produced at that point in history. You don't have to accept that, but the buildings from the 70's bare testament to the fact that we could build all sorts of structures if we put our minds to it. The point being, even with his designs and the tech available, people thought the idea was shit and it had nothing to do with the tech.

He is 60 or 70 years further down the track than NOW. Sigh. Again, I am not ignoring TVP in the slightest. I merely disagree that throwing up a few buildings is going to suddenly make those who don't give a shit suddenly stand up and go WOW, buildings, we must change how we live. We will also have wasted a huge number of resources by that time. Just to make that absolutely clear, I'm talking about mankind, not TVP.

[bogan]

I nearly did, but then thought, nah, don't have to.

I don't think that of TVP either, but you don't seem to accept the opposite as an answer for the pace of the progress given that it has been being pushed for a minimum of 40 years. I think the lack of funding/interest comes from those not giving a shit more than it does from the need for careful planning. Again, just to make this absolutely crystal clear to you, that is not saying that it hadn't been carefully planned 40 years ago. Mr Fresco had already produced these sorts of designs 40 years ago. A lot of the technology required for construction had been produced at that point in history. You don't have to accept that, but the buildings from the 70's bare testament to the fact that we could build all sorts of structures if we put our minds to it. The point being, even with his designs and the tech available, people thought the idea was shit and it had nothing to do with the tech.

He is 60 or 70 years further down the track than NOW. Sigh. Again, I am not ignoring TVP in the slightest. I merely disagree that throwing up a few buildings is going to suddenly make those who don't give a shit suddenly stand up and go WOW, buildings, we must change how we live. We will also have wasted a huge number of resources by that time. Just to make that absolutely clear, I'm talking about mankind, not TVP.

Would have though it came under your education goal, but I guess if you don't have the answers, you can't answer the questions...

Well, if his education and buildings and examples don't, how is your lack of education supposed to work where his stuff doesn't? :scratch:

[mashman]

Would have though it came under your education goal, but I guess if you don't have the answers, you can't answer the questions...

Well, if his education and buildings and examples don't, how is your lack of education supposed to work where his stuff doesn't? :scratch:

I've covered the answers in other threads and don't need to go another round with you should I choose not to. One thing I will leave that with though is, (in response to: What about those who do not vote it in?) how many up and coming innovators around the world are stifled by the restrictions of budget? Could it be that as one person leaves NZ that another would "buy" their life and carry on their research here unhampered by budget constraint?

That is a very good question. However I will try in as many ways as I can think of....... once I've got enough money together to make a real start.

[bogan]

I've covered the answers in other threads and don't need to go another round with you should I choose not to. One thing I will leave that with though is, (in response to: What about those who do not vote it in?) how many up and coming innovators around the world are stifled by the restrictions of budget? Could it be that as one person leaves NZ that another would "buy" their life and carry on their research here unhampered by budget constraint?

That is a very good question. However I will try in as many ways as I can think of....... once I've got enough money together to make a real start.

Okay, updating the salient points covered so far...

How will NOW come about? we will educate the people until they vote us in with the majority.

What about those who do not vote it in? they can leave and their assets must be purchased by somebody from another country wishing to get in on the RBE.

How will NOW deal with national debt and foreign interests? Sell them million dollar hammers to pay it off.

How will NOW upgrade the production infrastructure to ensure an RBE is viable? slowly, and after we move to an RBE.

But if an RBE requires advanced infrastructure, won't this be more likely to fail when it is set up without that? Well it doesn't, those guys doing all their research and spending so much time on this problem are wrong.

What makes you think they are wrong? Well, I want free stuff NOW!

[mashman]

Okay, updating the salient points covered so far...

How will NOW come about? we will educate the people until they vote us in with the majority.

What about those who do not vote it in? they can leave and their assets must be purchased by somebody from another country wishing to get in on the RBE.

How will NOW deal with national debt and foreign interests? Sell them million dollar hammers to pay it off.

How will NOW upgrade the production infrastructure to ensure an RBE is viable? slowly, and after we move to an RBE.

But if an RBE requires advanced infrastructure, won't this be more likely to fail when it is set up without that? Well it doesn't, those guys doing all their research and spending so much time on this problem are wrong.

What makes you think they are wrong? Well, I want free stuff NOW!

How will NOW come about? Voted for by the people.

How will NOW deal with national debt and foreign interests? In exactly the same way as it currently does using exactly the same mechanisms. The financial value produced by society will shift in relation to how the society is setup. Million $ hammers optional depending on how it is decided the financial system should work for us.

How will NOW upgrade the production infrastructure to ensure an RBE is viable? It will train the people required in accordance with whatever plan has been drawn up.

But if an RBE requires advanced infrastructure, won't this be more likely to fail when it is set up without that? An R.B.E. does not require advanced infrastructure for it to be classed as an R.B.E., but it allows for its development. An R.B.E. is about how things are done with the resources available, one of the results of which will be advanced tech, infrastructure, healthcare, education etc... It is more likely to succeed if people are behind the vision i.e. you need to ask them if that's what they want in order for them to vote for it and act accordingly. This is not limited to a NOW moneyless society, but that will help.

What makes you think they are wrong? I didn't say they were wrong.

[bogan]

How will NOW come about? Voted for by the people.

How will NOW deal with national debt and foreign interests? In exactly the same way as it currently does using exactly the same mechanisms. The financial value produced by society will shift in relation to how the society is setup. Million $ hammers optional depending on how it is decided the financial system should work for us.

How will NOW upgrade the production infrastructure to ensure an RBE is viable? It will train the people required in accordance with whatever plan has been drawn up.

But if an RBE requires advanced infrastructure, won't this be more likely to fail when it is set up without that? An R.B.E. does not require advanced infrastructure for it to be classed as an R.B.E., but it allows for its development. An R.B.E. is about how things are done with the resources available, one of the results of which will be advanced tech, infrastructure, healthcare, education etc... It is more likely to succeed if people are behind the vision i.e. you need to ask them if that's what they want in order for them to vote for it and act accordingly. This is not limited to a NOW moneyless society, but that will help.

What makes you think they are wrong? I didn't say they were wrong.

Okay, updating the salient points covered so far...

How will NOW come about? we will educate the people until they vote us in with the majority.

What about those who do not vote it in? they can leave and their assets must be purchased by somebody from another country wishing to get in on the RBE.

How will NOW deal with national debt and foreign interests? Production of goods to sell and pay off the debt, million dollar hammers may be available for purchase; we hope those countries will allow us to do this.

How will NOW upgrade the production infrastructure to ensure an RBE is viable? slowly, and after we move to an RBE. Personnel training is all that is required for an RBE to work.

But if an RBE requires no advanced infrastructure, why does the venus project focus so much on that? I don't know, but I'm sure it isn't a requirement.

What makes you think they are wrong on this point? Well, I want free stuff NOW!

[mashman]

Okay, updating the salient points covered so far...

How will NOW come about? we will educate the people until they vote us in with the majority.

What about those who do not vote it in? they can leave and their assets must be purchased by somebody from another country wishing to get in on the RBE.

How will NOW deal with national debt and foreign interests? Production of goods to sell and pay off the debt, million dollar hammers may be available for purchase; we hope those countries will allow us to do this.

How will NOW upgrade the production infrastructure to ensure an RBE is viable? slowly, and after we move to an RBE. Personnel training is all that is required for an RBE to work.

But if an RBE requires no advanced infrastructure, why does the venus project focus so much on that? I don't know, but I'm sure it isn't a requirement.

What makes you think they are wrong on this point? Well, I want free stuff NOW!

When are you going to update the salient points with the answers that were given?

[bogan]

When are you going to update the salient points with the answers that were given?

I been updating them from a more neutral and easy to understand viewpoint. Feel free to point out corrections...