Riding tired? Please don't

[Fern]

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1s17u4e

Insp Dave Mangan Lancashire Police launches "Embargoed" motorcycle Campaign
Motorcycle campaign tells of ‘Mike’s last ride’
A ROAD policing inspector who tragically lost his father in a motorbike collision has launched a campaign to raise awareness of the dangers of riding whilst tired.

Insp Dave Mangan from Lancashire Constabulary has created a short film about his father Mike’s last ride which will be shown to bikers across the county as well as in Cumbria, North Yorkshire, Avon, Somerset, Devon and Cornwall.

Mike Mangan, 72, from Bolton, sadly died on 11 September 2013 in Wheddon Cross, Somerset, when he was involved in a collision with an oncoming vehicle whilst overtaking. Mike, a retired electrical engineer, was on the last ten miles of a 320 mile journey and his family believes that tiredness was a contributory factor in his death.
Insp Mangan, 43, also from Bolton, was with his father at the time of the fatal collision. Mike was riding his BMW 1200RT, travelling from Lands End to Minehead.
‘Mike’s last ride’ tells the story of the day of the fatal collision and offers advice on how riders can stay safe on the roads.
Insp Mangan, who oversees road policing in the county’s East Division, said: “My family and I are still trying to come to terms with what happened. We miss him every day.

“My dad was a keen and experienced biker. He was a trained advanced motorcycle observer and used to teach other motorcyclists how they could stay safe on the roads.
“We have decided to use this tragic incident to help educate other riders. If it reminds just one biker of the dangers faced by riding whilst tired, then it will be a success.

“When bikers are making a long journey, towards the end they may start to feel tired and lose concentration. It is really important that riders recognise this and adjust their riding to the conditions.

“Even experienced riders can make errors of judgment which can result in serious consequences. Please don’t make this mistake.”

Officers from Lancashire Constabulary will be going to bike meets across the county to let bikers know about the campaign. The video will also be shown to bikers at these meets.
A series of messages will appear on Lancashire Constabulary’s Facebook and Twitter accounts with the hashtag #mikeslastride. Adverts will also appear on Facebook and leaflets will be distributed to raise awareness of the campaign.

Deputy Chief Constable Andy Rhodes from Lancashire Constabulary said: “It is very courageous of Dave to use this tragic event to try to help keep other riders safe.

“The risks of motorcycling are considerably greater than for other road users. Last year there were 36 fatalities on Lancashire’s roads and six of these were motorcyclists. Another 173 motorcyclists were also seriously injured.

“I hope this campaign strikes a chord with riders and sends a reminder that it doesn’t matter how experienced you are – riding whilst tired can have serious or even fatal consequences.”
A ride to Lands End from Preston in memory of Mike will commence on Wednesday 9 April. Insp Mangan will be joined by friends and colleagues as he leads the ride to promote the campaign. A minute’s silence will take place in the village of Wheddon Cross, which is about half a mile from where Mike was killed, at around 12 noon on Friday 11 April.

Insp Mangan will then attend the national BikeSafe show at Castle Combe race track on Saturday 12 April where the film will be shown to bikers.

A full inquest into Mike’s death is due to be heard on Thursday 22 May 2014.

To view the film, search YouTube for ‘Mike’s last ride’.
A web chat will be hosted by Insp Mangan on Lancashire Constabulary’s Facebook page at 2pm on Thursday 3 April. If you would like to get involved, search Facebook for ‘Lancs Police’. Further information about the campaign can be found at www.lancashire.police.uk/mikeslastride - live from Thurs am.





http://youtu.be/Wtijm9Sch-E

[Big Dog]

Yes, we all push on sometimes. Sometimes to keep up, get out of the rain or just get home.
If you are that tired it is better to stop, do something else for 15, like a lap of the bike, stop for a coffee or other non alcoholic drink. Your already tired do not compound it with alcohol.


Better 15 mins late than dead on time.


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[PrincessBandit]

I've found one of the most telling symptoms when I start to get tired is neglecting peripheral vision and mirror checks.

[James Deuce]

That's a lot of waffle based on conjecture.

[Big Dog]

That's a lot of waffle based on conjecture.

There is an awful lot of assumption. But the principal stands.
Riding tired = slower decisions, sometimes poor decisions.

The Southern is so long and monotonous I sometimes find I am no longer paying attention. Usually when sleep deprived. This can be a problem along the stretch where the next legal stop is 10 mins away.


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[James Deuce]

Yes. But. The argument has been presented as "Quod erat demonstratum", when it ain't. They've leapt to a conclusion based on evidence we don't have access to, thereby not presenting a plausible analogy let alone convincing argument that the chap was even slightly tired.

Any old twat can say the same thing. IF it could be demonstrated by blood gas analysis that he was asleep when he began pining for the fjords, the whole case would have a bit of oomph to it. I'm tired of road safety arguments that have a basis in nothing other than opinion and conjecture. It seems to be especially prevalent in motorcycling, from both sides, that "I reckon...and that's why he died and you all have to cover yourselves in pork fat before you put your Government mandated safety gear on to prevent it happening again."

We rip "the media" a new one for being unresearched twats. Critical thought cuts both ways.

[Big Dog]

I can't say I argue with you regarding the sufficiency of evidence. They do admit early on it is only a theory. I do however support the message.


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[G4L4XY]

I've resulted on sleeping on the side of the road once. Nothing like a quick nap to refresh yaself.

[98tls]

That's a lot of waffle based on conjecture.

Christ almighty motorcyclings become the new knitting since the internet turned up,sad for the sons loss etc but fuck the guy made a bad decision and paid the ultimate price tis nothing new.

[avgas]

Christ almighty motorcyclings become the new knitting since the internet turned up,sad for the sons loss etc but fuck the guy made a bad decision and paid the ultimate price tis nothing new.
Tired? He was old and not taking it easy! He wasn't having a nap - he simply no longer understood his limits, got it wrong, ended up dead. Fact of riding.

[James Deuce]

Tired? He was old and not taking it easy! He wasn't having a nap - he simply no longer understood his limits, got it wrong, ended up dead. Fact of riding.

You don't know that. It's all conjecture.

[FJRider]

The article implies that riding long (??? .. 350 miles is 560 km's) distance and tiredness are the same thing. Or ... the former causes the latter. 560 km's is two tanks of fuel for most bikes ... not that big a ride.

Knowing your own current limits ... not taking into account we have got older and may tire easier. (Who likes to admit that .. ??)

[Gremlin]

The article implies that riding long (??? .. 350 miles is 560 km's) distance and tiredness are the same thing. Or ... the former causes the latter. 560 km's is two tanks of fuel for most bikes ... not that big a ride.

Knowing your own current limits ... not taking into account we have got older and may tire easier. (Who likes to admit that .. ??)
I dunno, they didn't really specify a long distance? More just, long trips could make you tired, not that it's exactly surprising.

320 miles is 515km. Ultimately, everyone has to know their own limits. For some, 2-300km is their limit. Fair enough. For others, more like 1000km. For me, I find it varies. 3-500km can be done no problem, but doing 1000km+ days usually requires a bit of build up and getting ride fit.

[Fern]

So many variables, 320 miles after an epic night with a terrible hangover is different to a quick motorway blast down the M1 for 4 hrs on a fresh brain...

[James Deuce]

The conjecture seems to be snowballing.

[avgas]

You don't know that. It's all conjecture.
Rider 1 passed 3 cars in one go, at open road speeds,
Rider 2 attempted, failed and got stuck between cars 2 and 3. Then reattempted as rider 1 was rounding a corner.
Failed to see an on-coming car (Van no less) that had just come past rider one, but reattempted to pass car 1 anyway.

Outside their limits.

Unless the story is in-fact lies.......at which case the actual scenario is far worse.

Doesn't really matter any way - he died getting it wrong. Blaming tiredness is a good enough excuse as any.

Note I have not mentioned at any point that this "maneuver" was attempted anywhere else - which would imply conjecture.

So all I know is a) telling the truth, and the rider was outside their limits or b) cops not telling the truth and his dad was far worse condition than he admits.
If either of these were not the case - his dad would still be alive. The proof is in the pudding.

[James Deuce]

Rider 1 passed 3 cars in one go, at open road speeds,
Rider 2 attempted, failed and got stuck between cars 2 and 3. Then reattempted as rider 1 was rounding a corner.
Failed to see an on-coming car (Van no less) that had just come past rider one, but reattempted to pass car 1 anyway.

Outside their limits.

Unless the story is in-fact lies.......at which case the actual scenario is far worse.

Doesn't really matter any way - he died getting it wrong. Blaming tiredness is a good enough excuse as any.

Note I have not mentioned at any point that this "maneuver" was attempted anywhere else - which would imply conjecture.

So all I know is a) telling the truth, and the rider was outside their limits or b) cops not telling the truth and his dad was far worse condition than he admits.
If either of these were not the case - his dad would still be alive. The proof is in the pudding.

What are you trying to say? That claiming tiredness as a contributing factor isn't conjecture? It is. The whole argument is rendered moot at the point where someone tried to make this the core of a "Don't ride when tired" campaign. I've seen people fresh, eager and happy, smeared across the front of an oncoming van in almost the same situation. It's doesn't take tiredness for a motorcyclist to throw common sense to the wind in the attempt to keep up with a mate.

The only proven contributing factor in that scenario is a dangerous overtake.

[avgas]

Tired? He was old and not taking it easy! He wasn't having a nap - he simply no longer understood his limits, got it wrong, ended up dead. Fact of riding.


You don't know that. It's all conjecture.


What are you trying to say? That claiming tiredness as a contributing factor isn't conjecture? It is. The whole argument is rendered moot at the point where someone tried to make this the core of a "Don't ride when tired" campaign. I've seen people fresh, eager and happy, smeared across the front of an oncoming van in almost the same situation. It's doesn't take tiredness for a motorcyclist to throw common sense to the wind in the attempt to keep up with a mate.

The only proven contributing factor in that scenario is a dangerous overtake.
http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/dpi/lowres/business-commerce-specialist-consultant-revolving_door-bankrupt-bankruptcies-dpin641l.jpghttp://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/eol/lowres/business-commerce-elwood-revolving-coming_or_going-go-exits-eoln15l.jpg

Almost like he was not taking it easy, and went outside his limits.........

[Berries]

With rider 1 being a cop I thought he was dicing with death himself passing 3 cars.
Overtaking three cars in a row is hardly dicing with death.

[Big Dog]

You'd be surprised what you can surmise, and what conclusions you land at when it is someone close that you would not land at if you were agnostic to the situation.


Rider fatigue / tiredness would be a factor. How big is relative to the rider and pure speculation with out a survivor.

Base on the information provided it was by no means the only factor present.

Keeping up with son is probably higher up. Does not change the fact fatigue plays a factor in a lot of shit decisions.

The only fact we have is a bad call led to the death of a rider.


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[Berries]

Good luck with hoping the first or second car if they attempt to pull out to overtake the third will always see you then.
Anyone who assumes that a car driver is going to see them, anywhere, is going to end up getting hurt at some point.


I have read where a biker was not seen when attempting an overtake of more than one vehicle and ended up dead due to not being seen by one of the cars he was attempting to pass.
Oh dear. Perhaps there were clues well before he began the overtake? Perhaps there were clues while he was overtaking? If you are going to put yourself in potential harms way it is up to you to make sure you can do it safely and not rely on others to look out for you.

[Berries]

This section is called Survival Skills. If an indicator is the only clue you are looking for then I shake my virtual head. You should be looking at the positioning and behaviour of the vehicles as soon as you see them. You should see whether they are looking to overtake, whether they are hanging back and taking it easy. You should see them looking in the mirrors, closing the gap, moving left, moving right, slowing down, speeding up. There are so many clues that a rider should be looking for. The indicators are way too late even if they are used.

Circumstances would dictate whether you leapfrog a queue one by one or just nail it past several of them Both methods have hazards, both methods can get you killed. Obviously the third option is to sit behind them and pretend that you are a car.

[Erelyes]

This section is called Survival Skills. If an indicator is the only clue you are looking for then I shake my virtual head. You should be looking at the positioning and behaviour of the vehicles as soon as you see them. You should see whether they are looking to overtake, whether they are hanging back and taking it easy. You should see them looking in the mirrors, closing the gap, moving left, moving right, slowing down, speeding up. There are so many clues that a rider should be looking for. The indicators are way too late even if they are used.

Circumstances would dictate whether you leapfrog a queue one by one or just nail it past several of them Both methods have hazards, both methods can get you killed. Obviously the third option is to sit behind them and pretend that you are a car.

Absolutely. An anecdotal example -

Along the Southern M'way (Dunedin) heading to work today, in that 80k stretch between Caversham and Andy Bay Rd, in the drizzle, I was in the r/h lane coming up on a rubbish truck in the l/h lane.

I had kinda figured he would be switching into the R/h lane, trucks switch into that lane to turn onto Andy Bay Rd all the time. Sure enough, as I approached I saw that his r/h indicator on his front fender was on, but both the ones at the rear of the truck were out. He may have seen me, but without knowing for sure, I dropped speed and changed into the l/h lane behind him (traffic was clear behind me).

[bogan]

Not all of us have the mind reading skills of other drivers. The fact you agree with me its hazardous despite your mind reading skills just goes to prove my original point multi vehicle overtakes are dicing with death.

Situational awareness is OP, but it is hardly mind reading. Perhaps you should take the time to learn to do it? the dogs may thank you for it :pinch:

[bogan]

You obviously don't have a clue as to how fast some animals can run out across the road but maybe with your mind reading ability you do which I don't have. It would prevent a lot of accidents if we all did eh?

What I'm saying, is the people you want to take survival skill advice from, are those who learn from any accident, instead of just saying it was unavoidable cos the little rascal runs vewy fast.

I happen to have enough situational awareness to have slowed down on a number of occasions when an animal has indeed run out in front of me. Learn it also, and stopping running over poor little pooches.

[The Reibz]

Cop came out of a corner on a Hayabusa and passed 3 cars without breaking the speed limit. Sounds legit

[bogan]

I think you have just been lucky and there has been a few times myself when I have spotted an animal and have been able to slow in time so I like you also have "situational awareness" but you are obviously yet to find out some situations can happen very much faster than others and not just with animals either.

I think if you spent as much effort increasing your safe riding ability as you do trying to justify its mediocrity, your advice might eventually be worth listening to. As it is now, your reliance on the obvious things like indicators and speed zone signage is not up to a safe standard of defensive riding.

[bogan]

But I have said I am not a mind reader like you and neither are most other motorists otherwise there would never be accidents would there? As a matter of interest what do you do when you come up behind a car that stops in the middle of the road without indicating a change of direction, do you wait for them to make a turn before deciding to pass or do a mind read and pass anyway in the hope you have got it right?

Looking at vehicle cues like wheel rotation/direction, driver attention, driver's eyesight, driver's movement is not mind reading; that is just defensive riding. Get good you scrub.

[AllanB]

I drove to the doctor today as I have been feeling unwell. He said I have fatigue and dehydration.

I drove home to have a drink.

Cars are so much better than motorcycles when one becomes very tired while driving - you can just pull over and have a nap in them - crack a window though. Years back while riding on a long trip I did pull over into a country church and had a nap in the sun in the church grounds.

[bogan]

After focussing on all that I am surprised you are able to be able to look where you are going and often there can be situations where you have to be able to look out for more than one car. I still say you have just got lucky with your situational awareness/mind reading.

Nobody said it would be easy, start off by looking up spotlight/floodlight vision/attention management. I couldn't give a shit what muppets like you want to put down to luck or lack thereof, but passing on your shit attitudes to other riders is not something I'm ok with.

[Erelyes]

Your ability to avoid an accident in the example you give is really down to you being a local resident with the knowledge of which direction other commuting vehicles usually head which is something a visitor to Dunedin would not know or reasonably be expected to know.

I was pointing out just another technique that one can use when it's available. Your comment seems pretty A) obvious, B) pointless?


After focussing on all that I am surprised you are able to be able to look where you are going

Who says one has to focus on something to see it and be aware of it? Open your mouth more, there's still room for a little more foot.

[bogan]

The problem with your attitude is it has made you feel bulletproof due to your mind reading ability/luck and you think there is something wrong with everyone else for not having it. You better hope you never loose it eh!!!

My attitude of self improvement you mean? how would I lose that as by definition it is something I continue to work on. Just stop trying to write off the ability to self improve as luck or mind reading, and give credit where it is due, defensive riding works.

[FJRider]

After focussing on all that I am surprised you are able to be able to look where you are going and often there can be situations where you have to be able to look out for more than one car. I still say you have just got lucky with your situational awareness/mind reading.

I never saw the word "Focus" in any of his posts ... but you need to get in the habit of looking for clues the driver might be planning something that is NOT in YOUR best interest ...

Those subtle clues ... that just may mean you get the warning bells in your head soon enough ... to make the difference. (between being dead or NOT)

Doing your able best to put yourself in the right place when things are turning bad ... relies on a dam sight more than luck.

Start guessing what other vehicles near you might do to ruin your day (automatically) ... and you will live longer.

Situational awareness is not just knowing where those other vehicles are ... it's being aware of what they could do. And be prepared for it. That may mean covering the brake ... or buttoning off the gas. If all you lose is a few seconds of your time and nothing eventuates ... there's no harm (to you) in that.

Guess right and you'll be happier than you might think you should be ... funny that ...

[Tazz]

Cars are so much better than motorcycles when one becomes very tired while driving - you can just pull over and have a nap in them - crack a window though. Years back while riding on a long trip I did pull over into a country church and had a nap in the sun in the church grounds.

I keep a bivvy bag on the bike. Takes up as much room as my spare coke bottle of gas (fuel rated in the form of a note from mum of course).
Haven't had to use it yet and most of my long night rides begin after midnight, but I'm sure once I do I'll be stoked to have it (and maybe a little high from the petrol and oil soaked into it. Yeehaw).

[FJRider]

Your ability to avoid an accident in the example you give is really down to you being a local resident with the knowledge of which direction other commuting vehicles usually head which is something a visitor to Dunedin would not know or reasonably be expected to know.

Even as a stranger to an area ... you ask yourself "WHY did he/she do that" .. ???

Unanswered questions get (and keep) your attention.

[Berries]

Not all of us have the mind reading skills of other drivers. The fact you agree with me its hazardous despite your mind reading skills just goes to prove my original point multi vehicle overtakes are dicing with death.
Well no it doesn't. You are taking a massive leap from a potentially hazardous situation (like overtaking a single vehicle is, or cornering, or slowing down in the wet or, dare I say it, riding a motorbike) and coming up with dicing with death. Absolutely ridiculous and the sort of thing a non-rider like my dead gran would come up with. And I still don't know where you are coming from with this mind reading rubbish. Mind reading = assumption = pain. It is also impossible.

[avgas]

Cop came out of a corner on a Hayabusa and passed 3 cars without breaking the speed limit. Sounds legit
Didn't you hear. That's fine - he wasn't "Tired".






He was high on P.





Clearly his dad's drugs weren't as good as his.

[SMOKEU]

Snort some meth, but only a little, and don't smoke it. Then you won't be tired.

[bogan]

unless of course you had mind reading skills (like one poster on this thread)

To a simpleton anything of sufficient advancement looks like magic... To one of advanced ability, it becomes simple.

I think it obvious to everyone except perhaps yourself which of these categories you fit into :innocent:

[Ender EnZed]

It was not a single vehicle overtake I said was dicing with death but a multivehicle overtake as if the vehicle in the middle decides to overtake the the one in front

If you're not comfortable overtaking the middle vehicle in a line of three then why would you overtake the one at the back? It could just as easily pull out to overtake.

[Tazz]

If you're not comfortable overtaking the middle vehicle in a line of three then why would you overtake the one at the back? It could just as easily pull out to overtake.


http://www.troll.me/images/thumbs-up-jesus-says/zing.jpg

[bogan]

If you're not comfortable overtaking the middle vehicle in a line of three then why would you overtake the one at the back? It could just as easily pull out to overtake.

What, you mean the rear one would overtake the other two? nah, no way, be dicing with death that would :whistle:

Also, I've been the lead vehicle in this exact situation, middle car pulled out to pass my shitty hatchback as another car started to pass him; three abreast along a pretty rural highway, <s>no contact at all.</s> we all deaded, 3 times each at least, rolled it 63 times.

[Erelyes]

But that technique is pointless anyway except maybe for other riders on your commute

You mean, 'except for any other person who regularly rides a particular road'. Did you seriously think I was offering up some advice only for Dunedin riders? Fuck me dazed.

[Hashbandicoot]

The conjecture seems to be snowballing.
...

sadly died on 11 September 2013 in Wheddon Cross, Somerset
It could be terrorists!

[avgas]

If you're not comfortable overtaking the middle vehicle in a line of three then why would you overtake the one at the back? It could just as easily pull out to overtake.
I often wonder every day why people do stupid things. But that is in fact the essence of it. Stupid people are just that.

[Hashbandicoot]

I'm not getting involved with discussing some of the other posts here - its easy to pick apart comments which are of absolutely no value.

In my limited experience (about 5 hours!):

You cannot rely on other people to behave as they should, doing so invites injury or death.

For the example being discussed if I were riding and wished to overtake 3 vehicles (which I have yet to do at speed, but I'm using my imagination) I would make sure there would be somewhere for me to go should one of the cars pull out. I also tend to glance down at the front wheels as they give as clear an indication of any flashing light as to the potential direction of a car.

Someone mentioned that there should always be room for self improvement (or something like that) and I agree. Sure I'm new to riding but I'm not a moron, there is always scope to better your technique with everything; not just riding. Throwing up obstacles within your own mind about how skilled you are able to become is foolhardy. If you do not believe you will improve and become a more competent rider then I don't think you will, and as far as I'm concerned a mindset like that makes you a danger to yourself and others.

[haydes55]

Those that claim passing 3 cars is safe in this thread rely on being able to predict the thinking of the drivers they pass but predictions can be got wrong too. The idea of having somewhere to go if a car pulls out would not give you anytime if they happed to hit you first and if you could avoid it hitting rough terrain at over 100km an hr at the side of the road could be deadly too.


You're a bit special aren't you?

For the record, my best was overtaking a queue of about 10-15 cars on one straight on my old klx300.

It's not rocket science, I know every single car didn't see me and I just watched the front wheels of each car I approached. Glancing at the driver in their mirrors and windows. I rode right on the right side of the oncoming lane, so even if a car was to jump into my lane at sonic speed, they wouldn't hit me.

$20 says the next person to be involved in a crash from this site will be Cassina, for having the stupidest attitude towards self preservation ever.

It's not mind reading, it's reading the situation, if you can't read a situation then you are just as good at riding as a total noob. What did you learn in your 30 years of experience? Cause it sounds like that new guy with 5hours experience is already learning more than you.

Take a hint when every single person has a different opinion to you.

[Tazz]

How do you cope passing parked cars in large numbers Cass? Same principle...

[ellipsis]

...it's not a well known fact that at any speed in excess of 104kph conjecture turns into fact and that cassina should be in bed before dark, 'cos you never know what could go wrong out there...especially if there are more than two vehicles on the road, and they were moving:yes:...

[russd7]

Those that claim passing 3 cars is safe in this thread rely on being able to predict the thinking of the drivers they pass but predictions can be got wrong too. The idea of having somewhere to go if a car pulls out would not give you anytime if they happed to hit you first and if you could avoid it hitting rough terrain at over 100km an hr at the side of the road could be deadly too.

I do beleive that you do not have the experience you claim to have, having been on the outside of three abreast on more than one occasion and had cars pull in to my line as i am overtaking and had time to brake, i can assure you that you do have time to react as a car pulls out to overtake in front of you, they do not move at the speed of light and if you are aware of what is going on around you then it is pretty bloody obvious when a car is starting to over take, everyone is going on about watching front wheels and looking for drivers eyes but i tend to notice the obvious, the fuckers tend to start to speed up and start to move over in the lane, fuck watching for front wheels to turn when im already doing just a little over 100kms/hr (because i wouldn't want to speed :no: ). and yes i do pass lines of cars. but i also ride a litre bike and don't tend to fuck around once i start an overtaking process.
I do wonder why Cassina rides bikes as he obviously gets no joy from doing so and obviously does a lot of washing.

[Big Dog]

Would have to agree with you that a 1000cc bike would give you a better chance of surviving doing multiple vehicle overtakes should shit happen but I am getting the impression that many on here only learn from their own crashes and not crashes of others even if they should witness other crashes. I agree also about those who look at the drivers and their wheels as they go past as they would likely end up having a head on with a vehicle coming the other way which on the balance of probability is far more likely to happen than a side swipe from 1 of the overtaking vehicles.
Not if you're paying attention.

I am alternating between focusing on my mirrors, speedo 12 seconds ahead ( or as close as possible ), 4 seconds ahead, last known threat, most probable threat and the nearest driver(s). I don't move my head for this scan. Most of the time I don't move my eyes either unless something stands out as needing closer attention. My eyes are always pointing where I want to go.
I do shift my focus. This takes practice but you can look at your speedo without taking your eyes off the road if you know roughly where each of the speed limits looks like on an analogue clock. If you are focusing 12 seconds down the road you still see the drivers hands beside you move their hands on the wheel. A good indicator they are now your greatest threat.
Frequency of the scan depends on the current threat level.
Length on each step depends on current perceived threats. Eg cycle is slower in open wide boulevards at low speed with no traffic, very frenetic when commuting.
Cycle gets broken occasionally for head checks, fuel gauge checks, vista enjoyment.

It can be very tiring using active threat analysis at first. Worth it, far more worth it than anodised brake levers.


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[FJRider]

I am alternating between focusing on my mirrors,

An Italian saying ... What is behind is not important. What is in front will slow you more ...


speedo 12 seconds ahead ( or as close as possible ),

Don't try to count so high ... you haven't got enough fingers ...


4 seconds ahead, last known threat, most probable threat and the nearest driver(s). I don't move my head for this scan. Most of the time I don't move my eyes either unless something stands out as needing closer attention.

The known/seen threats are seldom an issue. The ones you need to watch are the one's you missed ...


My eyes are always pointing where I want to go.

It's rude to point. MY eyes don't point ... they LOOK ...


I do shift my focus. This takes practice but you can look

No need to Focus on anything ... look for clues to possible problems. Scan not focus.


If you are focusing 12 seconds down the road you still see the drivers hands beside you move their hands on the wheel. A good indicator they are now your greatest threat.

12 seconds down the road is NOT beside you.

The things you really need worry is within one hundred meters of you ... (front or back) ... and where you get your next tank of gas. The rest is unimportant.


Frequency of the scan depends on the current threat level.

If there is anybody within one hundred meters of you ... they ARE a threat to YOU ... so WATCH them.


Length on each step depends on current perceived threats.

You DON'T stop looking for threats ... Be it sheep (or any other wildlife), Cars/trucks, road damage/obstacles, weather .... or ANY other "Thing" that may influence you movements ... Stop looking and you will die. SOON .. !!!


Eg cycle is slower in open wide boulevards at low speed with no traffic, very frenetic when commuting.
Cycle gets broken occasionally for head checks, fuel gauge checks, vista enjoyment.

Keep looking anyway. You WILL live longer.


It can be very tiring using active threat analysis at first. Worth it, far more worth it than anodised brake levers.

Harden up ... and .. anodized brake levers are cool ... geez ... you don't know anything. (your spelling needs work too)


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Your phone can't spell either ...


Sounds to me you would also enjoy being a front line soldier as that's what they spend their time doing too looking for threats. The difference between the riding that you enjoy and my riding is i like to keep a good distance from threats especially when doing 100k or more and I do ride bikes a bit smaller than yours which maybe you would find more risky in threatening situations.


I enjoy living too ... so I keep looking for things that may impact on that living ... with the intent that my living continues. I shudder to think what your intent is. (apart from improving your counting fingers/seconds ability)

[FJRider]

Are you on herbal highs or something to be putting my name to the other posters posts?

Everything I quoted was from YOUR post. If it wasn't your words ... learn (fast) to quote correctly.

As I have said before ... you still have much to learn. You've proved me right ... again.

[Madness]

http://foto-prikol.net/uploads/posts/2010-10/thumbs/1286631758_foto-prikol.net_prikolnye-foto-62.jpg

[Big Dog]

Sounds to me you would also enjoy being a front line soldier as that's what they spend their time doing too looking for threats. The difference between the riding that you enjoy and my riding is i like to keep a good distance from threats especially when doing 100k or more and I do ride bikes a bit smaller than yours which maybe you would find more risky in threatening situations.
Riding smaller bikes does not increase the threat level. It does have a psychological effect on the rider and it does take away a few options. It also adds a few.

Changing direction, speed, attitude, pitch, and yaw are much easier with less momentum, gyroscopic and other forces to overcome.

On bigger bikes these changes can be a lot more brute force. Bigger bikes have bigger brakes because they need them. Same with engines.
On a big bike you may need to scrub off a little speed to achieve what was simple smaller bike.


Neither is right or better. They are just different. I probably have more fun on my dr350. Which is why until it started losing oil it was my main bike.

A need to cover the full length of the southern motorway 2x a day is the reason for the 1300. But that is another longer story. Basically if you know your limits and add slowly to your toolbox of skills you will find you will be able to cope in any situation. Be it riding a 1300 in tight circles to demonstrate counter steer or riding to cape Rienga on a 110.
A trade does not go and buy all his tools day one. He goes and gets what he needs for day one and then adds to his toolbox as he can, hopefully before he needs to and finds he can't.

Biker survival skills are the same. You get what you need for day one - basic handling skills.
You add to that via learner periods, cbtas, restricted periods, defensive driving courses, Nass, sass, books and forums. In the end we hope that when we are at the top of the ladder we have the right tools in our belt.


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[Big Dog]

An Italian saying ... What is behind is not important. What is in front will slow you more ...



Don't try to count so high ... you haven't got enough fingers ...



The known/seen threats are seldom an issue. The ones you need to watch are the one's you missed ...



It's rude to point. MY eyes don't point ... they LOOK ...



No need to Focus on anything ... look for clues to possible problems. Scan not focus.



12 seconds down the road is NOT beside you.

The things you really need worry is within one hundred meters of you ... (front or back) ... and where you get your next tank of gas. The rest is unimportant.



If there is anybody within one hundred meters of you ... they ARE a threat to YOU ... so WATCH them.



You DON'T stop looking for threats ... Be it sheep (or any other wildlife), Cars/trucks, road damage/obstacles, weather .... or ANY other "Thing" that may influence you movements ... Stop looking and you will die. SOON .. !!!



Keep looking anyway. You WILL live longer.



Harden up ... and .. anodized brake levers are cool ... geez ... you don't know anything. (your spelling needs work too)



Your phone can't spell either ...




I enjoy living too ... so I keep looking for things that may impact on that living ... with the intent that my living continues. I shudder to think what your intent is. (apart from improving your counting fingers/seconds ability)
To clarify, not all of these things get the same duration of attention and peripheral vision is adequate for new threat detection.
My eyes do point, the focused portion is not always the centre of the field I vision.

Anodised is English. Anodized is murkin and autocorrect fixes that.

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[bogan]

There is no guarantee that anyone no matter how skilled at riding they claim will be able to cope in any situation as some situations can happen faster than others. Those making such claims have possibly had a few close calls but felt as they didn't come off they they would be able to handle any future situation as well. I just call that being over confident in ones ability.

I just call that, get good you pleb.

[Big Dog]

There is no guarantee that anyone no matter how skilled at riding they claim will be able to cope in any situation as some situations can happen faster than others. Those making such claims have possibly had a few close calls but felt as they didn't come off they they would be able to handle any future situation as well. I just call that being over confident in ones ability.
On the contrary.

I don't believe myself to be anything special. As a rider I am pretty average.

I do believe in doing every thing possible and never giving up.

I have made some bad calls, and had some bad calls made for me. The outcome was
The same. Bike less pretty and some time off work.


I also have learned from those experiences.

I also have had some very close calls, calls that I believe without my level of self belief that I have earned through hours of practice I would not have made the right calls in some very hairy situations.
Some include moments when all hope felt lost, bit I kept trying to save it and did by the narrowest of margins.

There have also been a fair few "fark" moments.
Moments that are really outside of. Control and survival is luck.

Are you going to be the tradesman who hopes he has a hammer when he gets to the top of the ladder or are you going to be the sort that goes to the top of the ladder then wonders why his tool belt is still at home? Why he hasn't bought the hammer yet?

You can't save them all, but if you don't try you won't save any.


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[James Deuce]

glad you agree some situations are outside of our control as I said there are some on here that believe there is no such thing. As for skill level a lot depends on how close to the limit you want to get and not all motorcyclists feel it is necessary to be able to pass 3 cars in a row while approaching a bend to enjoy motorcycling. They are more likely to end up in the cemetery at some stage than those who don't.
You are aiming that at whom? Speak up, cease the circumlocution. Say something definitive instead of ill-informed and platitudinous.

[Erelyes]

Everything I quoted was from YOUR post. If it wasn't your words ... learn (fast) to quote correctly.

:clap: Cassina, you'll be needing some cream for that burn :nya:

[Berries]

glad you agree some situations are outside of our control as I said there are some on here that believe there is no such thing.
I doubt one person on here believes that. You assume way too much.


There is no guarantee that anyone no matter how skilled at riding they claim will be able to cope in any situation as some situations can happen faster than others. Those making such claims have possibly had a few close calls........
There you again.

[russd7]

I doubt one person on here believes that. You assume way too much.


There you again.

ahh yes, to assume is to make an Ass out of U and Me and remember, assumption is the mother of all fuckups,
learned from experience :Oops:

[Tazz]

http://m.memegen.com/jj47bg.jpg

[bogan]

There was a dude on here who claimed every accident is avoidable including when animals run out. I replied back to him saying if that was the case there would be no road deaths. Maybe he was on herbal highs to have such a thought or he had been lucky every time he had come close to dropping his bike and just felt everyone else should be as lucky as him.

Or maybe what he said was that you should try and avoid every accident, to be aware of your surroundings, because while every accident is avoidable, sometimes it is more practical to avoid being able to avoid every accident. Btw, your reply has a massive hole in its logic, as not all avoidable accidents are avoided.

[Big Dog]

There was a dude on here who claimed every accident is avoidable including when animals run out. I replied back to him saying if that was the case there would be no road deaths. Maybe he was on herbal highs to have such a thought or he had been lucky every time he had come close to dropping his bike and just felt everyone else should be as lucky as him.
All accidents are avoidable. Sometimes they are not avoidable in the given moment by the given rider on the bike. Eg. My second crash. If I had paid better attention to my maintenance or I had better skills to deal with a slide I might have saved it. If I had been going 10k slower or there was no diesel slick almost anyone could have avoided it.

It was avoidable. Just not by me on that day in that corner, in the rain, with a diesel spill, and the sudden failure of my rear bearings.



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[Big Dog]

Isn't retrospect beautiful?


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[bogan]

All accidents are avoidable. Sometimes they are not avoidable in the given moment by the given rider on the bike. Eg. My second crash. If I had paid better attention to my maintenance or I had better skills to deal with a slide I might have saved it. If I had been going 10k slower or there was no diesel slick almost anyone could have avoided it.

It was avoidable. Just not by me on that day in that corner, in the rain, with a diesel spill, and the sudden failure of my rear bearings.



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This guy gets it.