Proposal to delete rule 24.2.1 - Alcohol based fuel or fuel additives are prohibited [Archive]

Pumba

5th April 2014, 17:54

Just FYI for those that may miss it (and subsequently bitch about it later). In this years proposed rule changes, it is proposed to delete rule 24.2.1.

24.2.1 Fuel: See 10.17.1. Alcohol based fuel or fuel additives are prohibited.

This is the only proposed change to the Bucket rules this year.

Now I have not put this thread up to debate the positives and negatives, just to advise that if you have an opinion on the proposed deletion of this rule please provide feedback via email, admin@mnz.co.nz. A request from MNZ please state what proposal you are providing feedback on.

Feedback must be submitted before Friday 30th of April.

Full list of proposed changes can be found here http://www.mnz.co.nz/regulations/rules/proposed-rule-changes

Now let this thread degenerate into the shitfight I suspect it will become:girlfight::girlfight::girlfight::girlfight: :girlfight::girlfight:

Kickaha

5th April 2014, 18:03

Deleting that rule seems to make no difference as we're still covered by 10.17.1

10.17.1
The following classes shall be restricted to petrol having maximum
characteristics not exceeding “Avgas or Unleaded FIM” as defined in Appendix E. Motocross, Stadium/Supercross, Miniature TT, Trials, Enduro, Cross Country,
ATV, Stockbike, Solo, All Road Race classes except those classes listed in 10.17.2 and 10.17.3.
All Mini and Junior classes

TZ350

5th April 2014, 18:04

Just FYI for those that may miss it. In this years proposed rule changes, it is proposed to delete rule 24.2.1.

Thanks for the heads up......

Deleting that rule seems to make no difference as we're still covered by 10.17.1

10.17.1 The following classes shall be restricted to petrol having maximum characteristics not exceeding “Avgas or Unleaded FIM” as defined in Appendix E. All Road Race classes except those classes listed in 10.17.2 and 10.17.3.

Rules 10.17.1, 10.17.2 and 10.17.3

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And Appendix E

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Pumba

5th April 2014, 18:10

Cheers Kick.

Didnt go looking to see if it was covered else where

mr bucketracer

5th April 2014, 19:03

air cooled 2 strokes i think is the only engine to benafit with Alcohol . just think a 30hp 2 stroke that don't losse hp in the first 3-4 laps ( stays the same until the end of the race). i thought the rule was only just put in place so why are they changing it ?

Pumba

5th April 2014, 19:13

.... so why are they changing it ?

It only a proposal. Someone obviously made a submission, or the are just trying to tidy up the rules because they believe it it covered under 10.17 is a duplication (IMO it is option 1)

mr bucketracer

5th April 2014, 19:28

It only a proposal. Someone obviously made a submission, or the are just trying to tidy up the rules because they believe it it covered under 10.17 is a duplication (IMO it is option 1)owell see what happens then , just started a 2 smoker anyway for some fun but i do like finshing races lol bugger my body is a 2 stroker:facepalm: .. ps pumba you are the fastist

TZ350

8th April 2014, 22:51

Just FYI for those that may miss it (and subsequently bitch about it later). In this years proposed rule changes, it is proposed to delete rule 24.2.1.

Feedback must be submitted before Friday 30th of April.

Full list of proposed changes can be found here http://www.mnz.co.nz/regulations/rules/proposed-rule-changes

I see there has just been another proposed rule change added to the list.

24.2 Alter F4 2 Stroke's engine capacity to 107cc

I guess its intent is to allow 100's as a matter of convenience to use the readily available 52mm KT100 kart piston. Now 107cc is getting close to 125 without the handicap of air cooling and a 24mm carb. 100cc to 107 is a 7% capacity increase a 125 7% bigger and it becomes 133.75

Currently 125's are limited to a maximum oversize of 1.25mm to stay within their capacity limit. Cylinders are getting old, so maybe as another matter of convenience we should allow 125's to go to 2mm oversize too .... which is about 134cc.

Pumba

8th April 2014, 23:01

What a load of shit! That was not on the list the other day when I put this thread up. I mean how the fuck are you meant to have input into the sport when the shift the finish line after the race has started.

I am sorry but adding a proposal after the fact is so fucking wrong. I mean if not for robs comments I would have seen no need to go back and review the rules as I had already made a submission.

seymour14

9th April 2014, 07:28

richban

9th April 2014, 07:52

Looks like we will be building a bunch of two-strokes then. If that change happens, it massively puts racing in favour of them over the four strokers. What was that wrong with how they sat at the moment? Seemed there was a really good mix of bikes at the top end of the competition right across the rules different types.:done:

The fact is that the 2 strokes have always had a tech advantage over the 4 strokes. 400hp per litre V 200 per litre. working back from GP bikes 125's V the New 250 Both making 50hp and in real life that is about 5 or 6 short of what they do make. So a 107cc engine could make 42hp and 157 engine could make 31.4hp. Ummmmm does that make it clear enough for everyone. And don't go ah but I can't get a good barrel blah blah blah. Not my problem. Even a 350hp per litre bike has a massive advantage in hp. ha ha ha ha rant. Love it.:motu:

kel

9th April 2014, 08:51

And don't go ah but I can't get a good barrel blah blah blah.

Guess we'll just have to make do with what we have, or should that be what we will have; 110cc (when taking into account max over size allowance) running meth, we should manage :lol:

richban

9th April 2014, 10:29

Guess we'll just have to make do with what we have, or should that be what we will have; 110cc (when taking into account max over size allowance) running meth, we should manage :lol:

And I will still kick your ass:motu:

kel

9th April 2014, 10:48

And I will still kick your ass:motu:

Possibly, but was that the last of the not previously released proposed rule changes? You four stroke guys have become complacent, time to be punished :spanking:

F5 Dave

9th April 2014, 13:55

. . . And don't go ah but I can't get a good barrel blah blah blah. Not my problem. Even a 350hp per litre bike has a massive advantage in hp. ha ha ha ha rant. Love it.:motu:
yeah barrels are a problem. How about we run road based 125 engines like 7 speed Mitos etc, but promise to keep them std? only 25hp, heck 150s can top that now, just these will sound better. Buy an engine from UK or Euro, fire in some fresh big end brg & piston & a years reliable racing awaits.

TZ350

9th April 2014, 14:19

295979 295980

Things seem to be changing on the MNZ site all the time .... http://www.mnz.co.nz/regulations/rul...d-rule-changes (http://www.mnz.co.nz/regulations/rules/proposed-rule-changes)

cotswold

9th April 2014, 17:39

TZ350

9th April 2014, 18:20

( or are we substituting cubes for ability? )

Yes ......... I am anyway ... cubes and hp :D

kel

9th April 2014, 18:50

cubes and hp :D

Im going for the alcohol and ice cubes.

You lot are no fun, I thought this provocative thread was set up quite nicely :weep:

richban

9th April 2014, 19:11

Im going for the alcohol and ice cubes.

You lot are no fun, I thought this provocative thread was set up quite nicely :weep:

Come on more bites please. 205cc 4T. That takes to to a nice and fair possible 40 odd hp. 107 2T open and 205cc 4T open. Nice and simple.

mr bucketracer

9th April 2014, 19:22

Im going for the alcohol and ice cubes.

You lot are no fun, I thought this provocative thread was set up quite nicely :weep:you should move to hollywood because you name is used on camera more than any one .. yay dadys coming second ,, prombly not for long , kel your a plipen %#@% , best to join team gpr and together we can rule the tv world..lol

Yow Ling

9th April 2014, 19:36

best to join team gpr and together we can rule the tv world..lol

tv , transvestite??

husaberg

9th April 2014, 19:38

TZ350

9th April 2014, 19:54

Im going for the alcohol and ice cubes.

295985

I just now Googled "Ice Cubes", well, apparently there is a lot of naughtiness associated with ice cubes.

295984

And my friend the Bear likes them too.

295986

But Me, not so much.

kel

9th April 2014, 20:03

you should move to hollywood because you name is used on camera more than any one .. yay dadys coming second ,, prombly not for long , kel your a plipen %#@% , best to join team gpr and together we can rule the tv world..lol

Ah the 6 minute mark. Good to see the spectators getting excited.
Nah, team GPR isn't deserving of my fame, I mean who else could cause a shit storm by just getting out of bed :headbang:

TZ350

9th April 2014, 20:05

Hmmmmm Must Google "Shit Storm"

295987

Ok I get it now ....

mr bucketracer

9th April 2014, 20:13

Ah the 6 minute mark. Good to see the spectators getting excited.
Nah, team GPR isn't deserving of my fame, I mean who else could cause a shit storm by just getting out of bed :headbang:maybe you could borrow my paintball gun and shoot the spectators lol give them a reason to give you shit lol , me and regan chucked buckets in 15 or so years ago for getting shit all the time ( black flaged for pulling wheelys) type crap . then the buckets feel over here because we had a 1/3 of the bikes turning up(8 and a sidecar) .. one witch caused that:mad:

seymour14

9th April 2014, 20:15

Ah the 6 minute mark. Good to see the spectators getting excited.
Nah, team GPR isn't deserving of my fame, I mean who else could cause a shit storm by just getting out of bed :headbang:

I was so impressed with your crash at Taumarunui, I did a tribute to it in the B-Grade. You would suit our team, would make enough team members starting with K to start a club wearing white hoodies...

mr bucketracer

9th April 2014, 20:18

I was so impressed with your crash at Taumarunui, I did a tribute to it in the B-Grade. You would suit our team, would make enough team members starting with K to start a club wearing white hoodies...who will wear the red one:devil2:

TZ350

9th April 2014, 20:26

You would suit our team, would make enough team members starting with K to start a club wearing white hoodies...
who will wear the red one:devil2:

My guess it will be the girl from next door.

295988

goose8

9th April 2014, 21:16

Come on more bites please. 205cc 4T. That takes to to a nice and fair possible 40 odd hp. 107 2T open and 205cc 4T open. Nice and simple.
I think they might be changing 4t back to 125cc as well, now seems pretty fair go the 2ts.
:bleh::bleh::bleh

speedpro

9th April 2014, 22:31

Just an observation the 107cc will not allow the use of 52mm pistons, if you have a H100/MB100 without destroking. Let alone something with a 50.6mm stroke..
So it is a bit pointless.

MB/H100 standard stroke = 49.5mm, with a 52mm piston makes a 105.12cc engine.

My good engine stroke is 48mm, piston is 52.15 making a 102.5cc engine.

Using standard MB/H stroke of 49.5mm and a piston of 52.45 makes an engine of 106.95.

Actually with a piston of 52.45mm you would run the risk of going oversize as it is the bore dimension which is used to calculate engine capacity. If the bore was 52.47mm the engine capacity would be 107.03cc

As KT pistons are available in .05mm oversizes, even only being able to go to 52.45mm is still 10 oversizes including the original 52.00mm piston.

husaberg

9th April 2014, 22:46

MB/H100 standard stroke = 49.4mm, with a 52mm piston makes a 105.12cc engine.

My good engine stroke is 48mm, piston is 52.15 making a 102.5cc engine.

Using standard MB/H stroke of 49.5mm and a piston of 52.45 makes an engine of 106.95.

Actually with a piston of 52.45mm you would run the risk of going oversize as it is the bore dimension which is used to calculate engine capacity. If the bore was 52.47mm the engine capacity would be 107.03cc

As KT pistons are available in .05mm oversizes, even only being able to go to 52.45mm is still 10 oversizes including the original 52.00mm piston.

you are of course right re the 105 and a bit (fat finger the cellphone calc i guess) i would have still liked to see maybe 111 or so for a bit of breathing space for the kawa/yams etc with the 50.6 stoke but the remit looks like it is actually going to save money.........the Cr105 pistons are bloody expensive compared to the strike.............

avgas

10th April 2014, 08:34

So you can't have alcohol fuel, but you can have racing wheels, racing tyres, racing forks, racing suspension, lightweights products, changed sprocket ratios, changed gearboxes, racing plugs, racing valves, racing carb internals, efi, after-market computers, modified race frames, fuel pumps, non-original bores, aftermarket exhaust and CDI.

But don't get caught with a racing engine (externals) or alcohol fuel :eek::Police: :weird:

I dear someone to race a bog standard DR125......oh wait you can't :laugh:

F5 Dave

10th April 2014, 09:25

Ahh, you again. Fuck off wanker.

You don't race here so fuck off back under your own bridge.

F5 Dave

10th April 2014, 09:30

kel

10th April 2014, 10:11

Actually the more I think about the learner 125 market overseas they would have made a great basis for a bucket class if you could keep them std. Far more likable than the MX80 route. I'm not seriously proposing it but there is a supply of cheap motors. $500 or $600 would probably land you a passable engine, fire $300 of rodkit & piston at it & you'd have a reliable race engine for under a grand.

Cheap modern motors would be nice but we couldn't police the standard motor approach. Besides we already have the off the shelf option of the AM6 motors with their millions of after market kit and big bore parts.

TZ350

10th April 2014, 10:31

I would have still liked to see maybe 111 or so

Me to, then 11% more for the 125's ie 139cc ... I would like that very much yess sir ..... :yes:

But if the 100's really want cheap pistons and 111cc then easy, stay air cooled and use a 24mm carb.

F5 Dave

10th April 2014, 11:44

Funny you should mention that as there is also this rule I was about to point out;

Additionally amend:
F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc (7?) are restricted to carburation equivalent to a single 24mm carburettor

F5 Dave

10th April 2014, 11:48

Me to, then 11% more for the 125's ie 139cc ... I would like that very much yess sir ..... :yes:

But if the 100's really want cheep pistons and 111cc then easy, stay air cooled and use a 24mm carb.

check your math, where did you get 11%? 105 to 107 is no where near & 124s are allowed 130 currently.

The 4 bangers got an increase from 150 to 158 a while back. that's 5% more, so 3% more for the 100s seems prudent. Heck we'll be at 750cc by next century:woohoo:

mr bucketracer

10th April 2014, 12:09

all I want is just 1cc more . I don't ask for much:weep:

F5 Dave

10th April 2014, 12:17

after today I'm thinking more along the lines of 750ml

kel

10th April 2014, 12:28

check your math, where did you get 11%? 105 to 107 is no where near & 124s are allowed 130 currently.

The 4 bangers got an increase from 150 to 158 a while back. that's 5% more, so 3% more for the 100s seems prudent. Heck we'll be at 750cc by next century:woohoo:

I've done the maths. Both the 100's and four strokes already benefit from a greater % oversize allowance. Why should the 100's benefit further? If the rule change is accepted the 125's will be short changed a full 3%, or more importantly 2 piston sizes. No problem here with the proposed capacity increase, we all want to draw out the service life of cylinders for as long as possible, but any change should be applied to all.

TZ350

10th April 2014, 12:33

check your math, where did you get 11%? 105 to 107 is no where near

Check the original post

I quoted, Husaburg suggesting he would be happy with 111 and that is 100 + 11% or was last century when I went to school.... :)

F5 Dave

10th April 2014, 12:45

The original post was about gas wasn't it? Oh Husi's post, erm ok then.

Fine. [ask your wide for a translation]

jasonu

10th April 2014, 12:47

F5 Dave

10th April 2014, 14:04

You boys should remember that you all got cleaned up by an 80cc bike in the last 2 grand prix, instead of upping the capacity why not emulate the bike that is clearly superior. ( or are we substituting cubes for ability? )
Oh I have the ability all right. If I have a considerably better bike. Or can Knobble him, . . or can blatently cheat in some form of '2nd transponder' caper.;)

richban

10th April 2014, 14:49

I think i can put together a really solid case for the 4T to go to 205. All based on proven achievable hp pre litre rates for the 2 engine types, 2 stroke and 4 stroke naturally aspirated. So much proven data that it would be impossible to deny. See I don't care who rides what or how fast they ride it. Its not about that. Its about rules for the class that favours 2 strokes so heavily yet the 2 stroke fans / builder / riders are the biggest bunch on bitches that try to change the rules all the time to suite only there interests.

kel

10th April 2014, 15:10

IIts about rules for the class that favours 2 strokes so heavily yet the 2 stroke fans / builder / riders are the biggest bunch on bitches that try to change the rules all the time to suite only there interests.

Now thats more like it! Though you could proof read before posting.

speedpro

10th April 2014, 15:10

I think i can put together a really solid case for the 4T to go to 205. All based on personal experience . . . etc etc.

Fixed for you!

mr bucketracer

10th April 2014, 15:36

TZ350

10th April 2014, 16:56

... the 2 stroke fans / builder / riders are the biggest bunch o bitches ...

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Keepin it real .....

husaberg

10th April 2014, 16:57

I've done the maths. Both the 100's and four strokes already benefit from a greater % oversize allowance. Why should the 100's benefit further? If the rule change is accepted the 125's will be short changed a full 3%, or more importantly 2 piston sizes. No problem here with the proposed capacity increase, we all want to draw out the service life of cylinders for as long as possible, but any change should be applied to all.

The idea of 111cc has nought to do with maths.
The idea is to do with using a piston that is freely available and cheap.
the pistons in both 54 and 56 and o's are freely and cheaply available the chose of 50mm and o's are problematic and expensive.$200 plus
Yes destroking is an option...........
If you are implying the 125 AC 2 strokea are short changed consider they never existed in the origional rules.
The 4t have gone from 130-158 and a number of steps over the years.
The reasoning behind this i believe has been sound to allow the 145 and the 150's in which has been a great success.
Rich toungue in check suggested 200cc 4T's I say great idea but only 2 valves and air cooled maybe;)

Oh rich your are likely right re HP 2t vs 4t but the results of late do not favour the 2t's plus spread of power is also a factor.

cotswold

10th April 2014, 17:01

all motor gp classe's have ended up twice the cc because of been a 4 stroke .. one would think it would be a simple case even though i don't want it to go that way ( just fair)

Yup I agree, 125 water cooled gp bikes had to be doubled up to 250 foul strokes to keep a similar (:killingme) performance so I think that's the way to go, 2T up to 125 water cooled and 250 Four stroke , seems very fair, all of course single cylinder and all of course based on a road bike engine.

F5 Dave

10th April 2014, 17:02

all motor gp classe's have ended up twice the cc because of been a 4 stroke .. one would think it would be a simple case even though i don't want it to go that way ( just fair)

Good one Scott, - that was so the manufacturers could rub out 2 strokes and replace them with oversize diesels with so much hp they were an irresistible force. Fair was 500cc & you could bring what worked. For most of history that was a 4 stroke.

mr bucketracer

10th April 2014, 17:56

Good one Scott, - that was so the manufacturers could rub out 2 strokes and replace them with oversize diesels with so much hp they were an irresistible force. Fair was 500cc & you could bring what worked. For most of history that was a 4 stroke.i like both on the track . l just want what is fair ! 4 stroke fires every second stroke as you no .. but 4 stroke's have got dam good over the years so can get away with less than twice the size . do you have a 2 stroke in your van ? no because 4 strokes for now are the future untill someone comes up with something better .

mr bucketracer

10th April 2014, 17:59

if in motor gp1 racing if it was say you can only use 15 letres of fuel a race ( what would be the best ) ???

F5 Dave

10th April 2014, 18:02

F5 Dave

10th April 2014, 18:03

if in motor gp1 racing if it was say you can only use 15 letres of fuel a race ( what would be the best ) ???

Why on earth would you make racing a fuel economy run? Sounds like an accountants sport.

mr bucketracer

10th April 2014, 18:07

Why on earth would you make racing a fuel economy run? Sounds like an accountants sport.why not cc when the world is all about fuel emissions ? why do you think 2 strokes are gone burgers

richban

10th April 2014, 18:08

Now thats better. People actually admitting the 2 stokes have a clear advantage.

400hp per litre and 200hp per litre simple really. Only problem is we can't make them 250 or 125. Coz then they would be to fast. So looks like it 75cc with 2 mm over size for you 2 stroke boys and 150 with 4mm over for the 4 bangers.

Nice and even.

I will get the submission in soon.

mr bucketracer

10th April 2014, 18:10

Thats just a design fault in the 4 stroke firing only half the time. they do get some payback with a higher BMEP due to a cleaner burn, both are compromises. Yes the van is a four stroke, but packaging the expansion chambers would be a problem & the petrol bill would be a bit horrific.:crazy:and the desigh fault in a 2 stroke is they last 5 mins as you should well no lol (-: and they use shit loads more fuel (-; and i'm better on the brake's than you because you said i was no good years ago ( your fault ) lol he he

mr bucketracer

10th April 2014, 18:13

goose8

10th April 2014, 20:24

only need to look at the gp 80cc wins 160 4 at twice the size lost , but lap times nothing in it more a young mans gameYep young mans game for sure I think he would be a lot faster if he had a 27hp fxr , an the fact that a 22.5hp mb100 got the fastest lap Shows you don't need bigger motors For either 2t or 4t it's only 2cc more so you don't have to spend lots of money building a new crank .

richban

11th April 2014, 07:44

Yep young mans game for sure I think he would be a lot faster if he had a 27hp fxr , an the fact that a 22.5hp mb100 got the fastest lap Shows you don't need bigger motors For either 2t or 4t it's only 2cc more so you don't have to spend lots of money building a new crank .

I like where you are going with this G. So skinny fuckers get say 22hp and the fatter you are you get more ponies say 30 for me. Nice one.

Buddha#81

11th April 2014, 08:43

I like where you are going with this G. So skinny fuckers get say 22hp and the fatter you are you get more ponies say 30 for me. Nice one.

50hp for me , 15hp for the Hoogies, sounds fair!

Pumba

11th April 2014, 10:52

50hp for me , 15hp for the Hoogies, sounds fair!

Pffft only 50Hp? Thought you might have wanted to win.

I am already drawing up the plans to fit a GSXR600 engine into my FXR (still cant be arsed squezing into a RS frame)

TZ350

11th April 2014, 12:35

check your math
Check the original post
The original post was about gas wasn't it? Oh Husi's post, erm ok then. "Fine". [ask your wife for a translation]

296044

Yep ... nope, I is not brave enough ....... :laugh:

goose8

11th April 2014, 13:33

I like where you are going with this G. So skinny fuckers get say 22hp and the fatter you are you get more ponies say 30 for me. Nice one.
I would be more than happy to have a class based on power to weight say fully kitted up 170 to 190 kg bike an rider something like that an 22 to 25 hp max

jasonu

11th April 2014, 14:09

I will get the submission in soon.

and if it gets in you should expect a lynching closely followed by some buggaring and then a hanging...

F5 Dave

11th April 2014, 14:47

. . . Only problem is we can't make them 250 . . .
Past 182cc you got thru to the fins huh?

husaberg

11th April 2014, 17:17

Yep ... nope, I is not brave enough ....... :laugh:

Didn't i say "prefer" rather than "Happy" (can't be arsed checking) :bleh:
No mater what the MNZ does not everyone will be "happy" or "Fine" with it.
Most people might say there is "Nothing" is wrong with the current rules.
But i suggest (as i have done before) there is a reason to want Alcohol based fuels for AC engines. As it is a advantage in its latent heat of evaporation and as it needs to run at a higher by weight air to fuel ratio.
So it is a double wammy effect on one of the rule restrictions imposed to cover the displacement increase that they enjoy. ie "air cooled" and restricted carb(Scott alluded to this already)

But there is no cheap options for the 104cc engines pistons .(Currently)
Conversely there is heaps of cheap and freely available pistons to suit the 125 in commons sizes (But it might be more problematic in the future though)

kel

11th April 2014, 18:31

Most people might say there is "Nothing" is wrong with the current rules.
But i suggest (as i have done before) there is a reason to want Alcohol based fuels for AC engines.

What are you going on about? Is this the Trojan horse nonsense again? Go read chapter 10 and appendix E there's nothing there that advantages the air coolers, but thanks for the scaremongering.

TZ350

11th April 2014, 18:34

... i would have still liked to see maybe 111 or so ...

Didn't i say "prefer" rather than "Happy" (can't be arsed checking) :bleh:

No not prefer or happy, I checked .....

husaberg

11th April 2014, 18:35

No not prefer or happy, I checked .....

liked sweet lol.

TZ350

11th April 2014, 18:39

But i suggest (as i have done before) there is a reason to want Alcohol based fuels for AC engines

These would be the rules, so please tell me exactly how much alcohol fuel is allowed.

I think you will find that Methanol is specifically banned for most RR classes including Buckets.

Rules 10.17.1, 10.17.2 and 10.17.3

295798

And Appendix E

295796

husaberg

11th April 2014, 18:43

What are you going on about? Is this the Trojan horse nonsense again? Go read chapter 10 and appendix E there's nothing there that advantages the air coolers, but thanks for the scaremongering.

I must be a bit slow then, so why else would someone want to delete a rule that prohibits the use of alcohol based fuel?
Is other legal unleaded fuels in short supply.....
Nah bugger it......... its been done to death already.........

kel

11th April 2014, 18:53

Nah bugger it......... its been done to death already.........

I hear you, but why let the actual rules stand in the way of a good beat up

TZ350

11th April 2014, 18:57

I must be a bit slow then, so why else would someone want to delete a rule that prohibits the use of alcohol based fuel?

I imagine that it is not about alcohol (Methanol) fuel, because that is prohibited elsewhere. I think its because it prohibits fuel additives like pre mix engine oil and 96 plus octane boost if you want to try something cheaper (and easier to get) than Av gas.

husaberg

11th April 2014, 19:03

I hear you, but why let the actual rules stand in the way of a good beat up

Fair enough..... Hand on my heart, looking at all the facts available.
I see any use of fuel, that has any alcohol form in its content, disproportionately favours an air cooled two stroke.

Can you put your hand on your heart and sincerely and honestly say that you believe the use of an fuel that has any alcohol content offers no form of cooling advantage for an Air cooled two stroke?

husaberg

11th April 2014, 19:05

I imagine that it is not about alcohol (Methanol) fuel, because that is prohibited elsewhere. I think its because it prohibits fuel additives like pre mix engine oil and 96 plus octane boost if you want to try something cheaper (and easier to get) than Av gas.

My pick on that one is they never noticed? kicka pointed it out afterwards.
Who made the actual submission anyway?

TZ350

11th April 2014, 19:15

Can you put your hand on your heart and sincerely and honestly say that you believe the use of an fuel that has any alcohol content offers no form of cooling advantage for an Air cooled two stroke?

Is this going to be about semantics or practicality???

I can put hand on heart and tell you what I found in a practical sense .... as I had previously looked into it extensively on the dyno and track and found that small %%% were not very helpful, running petrol rich often had the same or better effect and I had to go to quite high ratios before alcohol was noticeably better from a cooling point of view, and then there were other issues with running much alcohol, like excessive bore wash and rusting of the bearings and seal swell.

kel

11th April 2014, 19:17

Can you put your hand on your heart and sincerely and honestly say that you believe the use of an fuel that has any alcohol content offers no form of cooling advantage for an Air cooled two stroke?

Certainly can. The one time I ran E10 the motor over heated and seized. I'll be sticking with dirty old Avgas, at least until I find an affordable source for the FIM unleaded.

husaberg

11th April 2014, 19:25

Are we talking in semantics or practicality???

I can put hand on heart and tell you what I found in a practical sense .... as I had previously looked into it extensively on the dyno and track and found that small %%% were not very helpful, running petrol rich often had the same or better effect and I had to go to quite high ratios before alcohol was noticeably better, and then there were other issues with alcohol, like excessive bore wash and rusting of the bearings and seal swell.

ya had me there with the first Draft Rob, i had to google sematic"warning of danger, as a conspicuous marking on a poisonous animal.":laugh:
Hats off for a very carefully worded reply. But was it a positive effect to raise the alcohol content? such as HP or power fade losses.......

TZ350

11th April 2014, 20:29

... was it a positive effect to raise the alcohol content? such as HP or power fade losses.......

Back in the "Day" I ran an air cooled 2T race bike on Methanol, it only made a little more power than petrol but at a 1,000 rpm less and interestingly the engine vibrated quite differently under load compared to petrol at the same rpm.

No doubt a new chamber could have moved the alcohol rpm peak up again for even more power. But I did not know enough about chambers to think of messing with them, at the time I was into experimenting with different fuels.

True, with a high Meth mix the air cooled engine kept its cool, but with smaller amounts like 5-10-15% Meth in petrol I had deto and heating problems.

Alcohol does not like to run lean and I think that with a low Alcohol/high Petrol mix that tuning the major constituent, petrol for good power under some circumstances had the alcohol portion too lean. The balance between what the two different fuels needed was not right and detonation would heat the engine up instead of the alcohol cooling it down.

You are right, its true, the latent heat of evaporation of a fuel is directly proportional to the sum of all of its constituents but in my experience there is more to it than that and a fuel mix can lose out given the balance of other factors required to use it.

jasonu

12th April 2014, 00:55

jasonu

12th April 2014, 01:00

I imagine that it is not about alcohol (Methanol) fuel, because that is prohibited elsewhere. I think its because it prohibits fuel additives like pre mix engine oil and 96 plus octane boost if you want to try something cheaper (and easier to get) than Av gas.

But how many liters do you use (per bike) at a typical meeting? Even if av is twice the cost of pump gas you are still talking, wot, 5 liters = $25 a weekend for bike fuel... Those that choose to field and fuel more than one bike make their own bed.

TZ350

12th April 2014, 06:49

125cc vs 100cc That is a 25% capacity advantage

Sure in F4 2T there is a capacity advantage but with fundamental tuning restrictions on the 125. Can you name them?

TZ350

12th April 2014, 06:53

But how many liters do you use (per bike) at a typical meeting? Even if av is twice the cost of pump gas you are still talking, wot, 5 liters = $25 a weekend for bike fuel... Those that choose to field and fuel more than one bike make their own bed.

A lot do have King size beds and I suspect a few 4t's are using 96 and octain boost.

richban

12th April 2014, 09:07

Funnest thread in ages.

Lighten up boys. Go to the gym and you will go faster. Get your spring rates right and you will go way faster. Turn the throttle quicker and you might crash. Wisdom right there.

jasonu

12th April 2014, 11:39

Sure in F4 2T there is a capacity advantage but with fundamental tuning restrictions on the 125. Can you name them?

Not sure what you are getting at but if you mean 24mm carb and aircooled for 125cc 2T. You and others still managed to get 30hp+ with these restrictions. IMO if you aimed for around 25hp you would easily gain mid range hp, rideability and reliability

jasonu

12th April 2014, 11:40

mr bucketracer

12th April 2014, 12:26

F5 Dave

12th April 2014, 13:06

Sure in F4 2T there is a capacity advantage but with fundamental tuning restrictions on the 125. Can you name them?
I think you'll find Jason had some input at the time they were proposed. It was just 100s and 125 foul strokers back when.

TZ350

12th April 2014, 13:26

... 24mm carb and aircooled for 125cc 2T ...

And old fat bastard rider .... :laugh:

296088

I have recently found that when I finally got good at building interesting bikes I am to old to ride them well .... :doh:

husaberg

12th April 2014, 13:40

I had a look on the net for some SAE papers
http://papers.sae.org/2012-01-1275/

Gasoline/ethanol fuel blends have significant synergies with Spark Ignited Direct Injected (SI DI) engines. The higher latent heat of vaporization of ethanol increases charge cooling due to fuel evaporation and thus improves knock onset limits and efficiency. Realizing these benefits, however, can be challenging due to the finite time available for fuel evaporation and mixing. A methodology was developed to quantify how much in-cylinder charge cooling takes place in an engine for different gasoline/ethanol blends.
........................
The measured charge cooling increases with fuel ethanol content from 14 degrees C for gasoline to 49 degrees C for E85 (85% ethanol, 15% gasoline by volume). The amount of charge cooling as a fraction of the thermodynamic maximum was around 70% for all fuel blends.

kel

12th April 2014, 14:28

I had a look on the net for some SAE papers
http://papers.sae.org/2012-01-1275/

Have you read chapter10 and Appendix E? If so you'd know the E85 argument is redundant so how about you contribute something worthwhile and show us the figures for E10?

jasonu

12th April 2014, 14:41

I think you'll find Jason had some input at the time they were proposed. It was just 100s and 125 foul strokers back when.

No mate original idea with Chris Pickett, me and SpeedPro was 100h20 2T, 125AC(for TF125 etc) 2T with 24mm carb and 145 (for GL145) diesels

TZ350

12th April 2014, 15:35

I had a look on the net for some SAE papers
http://papers.sae.org/2012-01-1275/

I see from the preface they are basically comparing charge cooling between Port Fuel Injection (PFI) with Direct Injection (DI) of five gasoline/ethanol blends. The results showed superior charge cooling with DI compared to PFI for the same fuel blend.

There was no power comparison only that DI proved better than PFI whatever the fuel mix for detonation suppression through superior charge cooling.

As you know the rules ban Methanol outright and appendix E would limit everyone to a maximum of 10% Ethanol.

Detonation suppression is not the same as making power. I would love to see a power comparison between the base petrol and the ethanol blends.

My pick would be that the lower ethanol blends will produce less power as the petrol would need to be run rich to suppress lean burn detonation of the ethanol. And that the power output would be restored as the ethanol volume went up and petrol became the minor component.

I see there are two papers, if your getting them I would be very interested in reading them.

husaberg

12th April 2014, 16:17

I see from the preface they are basically comparing charge cooling between Port Fuel Injection (PFI) with Direct Injection (DI) of five gasoline/ethanol blends. The results showed superior charge cooling with DI compared to PFI for the same fuel blend.

There was no power comparison only that DI proved better than PFI whatever the fuel mix for detonation suppression through superior charge cooling.

As you know the rules ban Methanol outright and appendix E would limit everyone to a maximum of 10% Ethanol.

Detonation suppression is not the same as making power. I would love to see a power comparison between the base petrol and the ethanol blends.

My pick would be that the lower ethanol blends will produce less power as the petrol would need to be run rich to suppress lean burn detonation of the ethanol. And that the power output would be restored as the ethanol volume went up and petrol became the minor component.

I see there are two papers, if your getting them I would be very interested in reading them.

Nah i just looked to see the what there was in relation to "cooling and Ethanol based fuels"

The measured charge cooling increases with fuel ethanol content from 14 degrees C for gasoline to 49 degrees C for E85 (85% ethanol, 15% gasoline by volume). The amount of charge cooling as a fraction of the thermodynamic maximum was around 70% for all fuel blends.
As you see there is a rather large cooling effect of the intake charge with an ethanol blended fuel.
Re the methanol, correct me if i am wrong, but i don't recall that i mentioned methanol in this thread?

kel

12th April 2014, 17:03

As you see there is a rather large cooling effect of the intake charge with an ethanol blended fuel.

Blah blah blah, ignoring facts and relevant fuel options as they would just get in the way of a good :bs:
Go spend some time in the shed building a bike you can race.

husaberg

12th April 2014, 17:16

Blah blah blah, ignoring facts and relevant fuel options as they would just get in the way of a good :bs:
Go spend some time in the shed building a bike you can race.

Kel anyone who reads this thread will see you can not put up any arguements...... you just argue.... feel free to play the ball.....
you have not put anything to prove your point, that it is not an beneficial advantage for an aircooled 125 2 stroke.
your continued ranting =.:yawn:

kel

12th April 2014, 17:54

Kel anyone who reads this thread will see you can not put up any arguements...... you just argue.... feel free to play the ball.....
you have not put anything to prove your point, that it is not an beneficial advantage for an aircooled 125 2 stroke.
your continued ranting =.:yawn:

Oh man that put me in my place :killingme:
Hows that bike going.

mr bucketracer

12th April 2014, 18:04

i have dynoed lots of speedway bikes in the past , they take for ever to heat up like 8 or so mins before you can even dyno the dam things . if its the same in a 2 stroke it's a big advantage . i recond a aircooled 2 stroke lose's 3 hp in 5-6 laps before it stays the same so is more even with the best of the best 4 stroke . 100 water cooled 2 stroke would have to be the best way to go out side that ... just what what i think. 10% Alc is a wast of time but 50%+ would be i think a big advantage . end of the day you still have to ride fast ...we all know my problem so until i fix that i don't care what you do

husaberg

12th April 2014, 18:16

Oh man that put me in my place :killingme:
Hows that bike going.

It was a polite remember that this is a debate, to which you again put nothing forward to prove it does not provide a beneficial advantage for a 2 stroke air cooled 125............
The bucket will be finished with it home cast cylinder and most likely a new set of cases as well, target is October 2014.

TZ350

12th April 2014, 18:32

... a 100 water cooled 2 stroke would have to be the best way to go ...

With the proposed new 107cc oversize limit, H2O and unrestricted carb, it would be even better I expect.

i think. 10% Alc is a wast of time but 50%+ would be i think a big advantage.

Yes in practical terms I agree on both accounts, I note the proposed rules and appendix E bans Methanol and limits Ethanol to 10%.

mr bucketracer

12th April 2014, 18:44

With the proposed new 107cc oversize limit, H2O and unrestricted carb, it would be even better I expect.

Yes in practical terms I agree on both accounts, I note the proposed rules and appendix E bans Methanol and limits Ethanol to 10%.all good then ... i thought 100s were unrestricted carbs? . should rase the oversize limit across the board as it is hard to find 4 stroke pistons

Kickaha

12th April 2014, 19:32

target is October 2014.
Yeah sure it will be, you can borrow the GN for Greymouth I'll be at Hampton Downs

husaberg

12th April 2014, 19:36

Yeah sure it will be, you can borrow the GN for Greymouth I'll be at Hampton Downs

I hear ya looking for a new Swinger too Warwick what up with that? did you bust ya old one?

Kickaha

12th April 2014, 19:43

I hear ya looking for a new Swinger too Warwick what up with that? did you bust ya old one?

You volunteering? promise I'll be gentle

He wants to go do some travel and shit with his girlfriend

husaberg

12th April 2014, 19:47

You volunteering? promise I'll be gentle

He wants to go do some travel and shit with his girlfriend

Only volenteering for the sidecar not auditioning to be a girlfriend
I'd be keen for a lap or two for a giggle to see if it is as good as you make out.
We are still talking about the sidecar though :eek:

TZ350

12th April 2014, 19:49

all good then ... i thought 100s were unrestricted carbs? .

Yes 100's are unrestricted carb but there is an oversize proposal to allow a 100 to be re-bored to 107cc so they can use easy to get 52mm pistons. So effectively, they could be 107cc unrestricted and water cooled.

Personally I don't want that and would like the status quo re capacity limits but some of my friends disagree with me and think its an OK idea.

... should raise the oversize limit across the board as it is hard to find 4 stroke pistons

This is the time to propose it to MNZ. In fact this is the time to express anything re any of the proposed rule changes to MNZ. Pumbers first post on page one has the link.

mr bucketracer

12th April 2014, 20:57

Yes 100's are unrestricted carb but there is an oversize proposal to allow a 100 to be re-bored to 107cc so they can use easy to get 52mm pistons. So effectively, they could be 107cc unrestricted and water cooled.

Personally I don't want that and would like the status quo re capacity limits but some of my friends disagree with me and think its an OK idea.

This is the time to propose it to MNZ. In fact this is the time to express anything re any of the proposed rule changes to MNZ. Pumbers first post on page one has the link.i have a rd50 , i ran rg50 pistons in it but the first over size rg50 piston made the engine to big so that was the end of that .. i can see the need for over sized pistons for 2 strokes been a heap of work put into it then its buggered but then thats what you get for performance over 4 strokes i guess .. but then we do want to keep the sport cheap !!! so what do we do and where do we draw the line...

speedpro

12th April 2014, 21:25

Looking at the capacity increase in isolation there doesn't seem to be much wrong with it. A less than 2% increase opens up 10 freely available, well priced, oversizes. For MB100 engines anyway.

In comparison, since I started bucket racing, aircooled 2-strokes have increased in capacity 25%, or more if you count oversizes. F4 4-strokes have increased in capacity 20% or a bit more if you again count oversizes.

I don't remember too much bleating when those other engine types were allowed a capacity increase. Actually there was a lot of bleating. Funnily enough the world is still turning, although . . . . it is a bit warmer, maybe.

TZ350

12th April 2014, 22:38

... less than 2% increase ... In comparison, since I started bucket racing, aircooled 2-strokes have increased in capacity 25%, or more if you count oversizes.

Its changes to the current rules we are talking about, 100cc unlimited or 125 air cooled and 24mm carb.

Maybe if you want to use cheaply available pistons that take you outside the 100cc + oversizes capacity limit then maybe you should run air cooled and use a 24mm carb.

Maybe the whole oversize thing needs to be re viewed for the whole class.

husaberg

12th April 2014, 22:45

Its changes to the current rules we are talking about, 100cc unlimited or 125 air cooled and 24mm carb.

Maybe if you want to use cheaply available pistons that take you outside the 100cc + oversizes capacity limit then maybe you could run air cooled and use a 24mm carb.

I see what you are saying Rob but the MB don't go to 125...............well not without aftermarket cylinders or stroking

TZ350

12th April 2014, 22:51

I see what you are saying Rob but the MB don't go to 125...............well not without aftermarket cylinders or stroking

Yes but Buckets is all about the choices, either don't run an oversize MB100 or rejoice in the fact they have the advantage of being able to be fitted with a very nice gearbox and then you can stretch its capacity out to as far as you want/can/have the ability to go.

MB100 cylinders are readily available new at very cheap prices. Speedpro talked about a bulk buy for all-cumbers just a while ago. And its not to hard to develop a porting routine that is easy enough to replicate.

Personally I think the whole oversize thing for everybody needs looking at. I think the 4T boys find it hard to get suitable pistons so they can use their OS allowance and a few cc's would make it easier for them and 125 2T's for all practical purposes are limited at the moment to half the oversizes available for a 56mm bore.

husaberg

12th April 2014, 22:54

Yes but Buckets is all about the choices, either don't run an oversize MB100 or rejoice in the fact one can be fitted with a very nice gearbox and then stretch its capacity out to as far as you wan't to go.

Rob what i am saying is sure you can run it as a 125 but it will be at a disadvantage in doing so.....as they generally only go to about 117 or so......
Yes buckets are about choices.

TZ350

12th April 2014, 23:11

Yes buckets are about choices.

Exactly ..... air cooled 2T with 24mm carb and 117cc with the advantage of a good gearbox (and cheap pistons) or a 125 something else and not so good a gearbox, (and not so cheap pistons either) Buckets is indeed about choices.

husaberg

12th April 2014, 23:15

Exactly that ..... and the willingness to make the best of them.

Find the best or least worse compromise.........

TZ350

12th April 2014, 23:52

Miniature Road Racing
The maximum capacity for rebored engines shall be:
F4 2 stroke 55-100cc - 104cc (proposed change - Alter F4 2 Stroke to 55-107cc)
2 stroke 55-125cc air cooled - 130.5cc
4 stroke 55-150cc – 158.09cc
F5 2 stroke 0-50cc - 53cc
4 stroke 0-100cc - 104cc

Above are the current oversize allowances, what do other people think they should be?

F4 2 stroke 55-100cc - 104cc with proposed 52mm OS change becomes - 55-107cc
2 stroke 55-125cc air cooled - 130.5cc with 2mm OS a 50x56+2mm=132cc and 54x54+2mm=133cc

4 stroke 55-150cc – 158.09cc

Whats size is a readily available quality OS piston for the FXR150?

Skunk

12th April 2014, 23:52

The 100cc extra capacity only raises it from the current 104cc to 107cc. It isn't as much as the 145cc four have grown (now at 159.something). The rule change is aimed at keeping the bikes running - not at giving any advantage.

If it ain't smokin' - it's broken.

Skunk

12th April 2014, 23:53

Too late this year to change it but it could be put through next year.

If it ain't smokin' - it's broken.

TZ350

12th April 2014, 23:56

The rule change is aimed at keeping the bikes running - not at giving any advantage.

Thats 3 extra cc's and I would like to be able to use all the oversizes available for the GP to keep it running as well, and 3 extra cc's would do it for me too. Maybe that proposed rule change could be thought through a bit more and re submitted next year.

husaberg

12th April 2014, 23:58

I would like to be able to use all the oversizes available for the GP to keep it running too.

Have you ever looked at some kart pistons for the GP there was a lot of 125's back in the day not sure what strike go too either.

TZ350

13th April 2014, 00:14

Have you ever looked at some kart pistons for the GP there was a lot of 125's back in the day not sure what strike go too either.

I would be interested if they are current manufacture and readily available. 15 or 16 mm wrist pin, domed top, 1mm or less ring and center rear ring locating pin are the essential requirements.

jasonu

13th April 2014, 04:01

Exactly ..... air cooled 2T with 24mm carb and 117cc with the advantage of a good gearbox (and cheap pistons) or a 125 something else and not so good a gearbox, (and not so cheap pistons either) Buckets is indeed about choices.

You chose the 5 speed GP125 to base your work on and managed to get very impressive hp numbers from it. I'm not trying to knock your work but I would have never gone with a 5 speeder. If I were you I would look at lowering the HP in order to make the bikes more reliable and rideable and also put them on a severe diet.

TZ350

13th April 2014, 06:37

All good advice, particularly the bike weight and I guess handling and rider ability, all things which your bikes are particularly good at and are the yard stick that I measure other bikes against, all credit to you and Chris P.

As for choosing the GP125, well like a lot of things in life, its was pretty random. A friend of mine suggested we go Bucket racing and his son had given him a GP125. I wanted to beat my friend fair and square so needed to use the same type of bike. He was always the better rider but I would like to think I built a better bike.

296116 http://geoffjames.blogspot.co.nz/2011/03/what-do-old-farts-know-about-riding.html
This is not me but you get the idea.

In my case I am not sure I can do much about the rider ... :laugh:

Anyway Jason what has any of your post to do with the proposed rule change???

craisin

13th April 2014, 08:03

get the audience to all your meets to vote on it

Kickaha

13th April 2014, 08:20

but I would have never gone with a 5 speeder.
The gap between the gears is more important than whether it's a 5 or 6 speed

People have argued about o/s pistons and capacity limits for as long as I can remember, they need to stop stop trying to fix something which isn't broken

jasonu

13th April 2014, 08:57

Anyway Jason what has any of your post to do with the proposed rule changes???

You appear to want rule changes and I am trying to point out that maybe a rule change is not necessary and maybe a mindset change on some builders part could/would be beneficial.

From where I sit (8000 miles away.....) the rules look to be working so why mess with them.

TZ350

13th April 2014, 09:11

You appear to want rule changes and I am trying to point out that maybe a rule change is not necessary ... the rules look to be working so why mess with them.

When it comes to changing the capacity limits it appears we are on the same page.

Personally I don't want that and would like the status quo re capacity limits.

richban

13th April 2014, 10:21

Whats size is a readily available quality OS piston for the FXR150?

64mm pistons heaps of choice. 156cc. Nothing to take it to 158 with out changing stroke.

As I have said the 2 strokes have a massive tech advantage. But as know one has managed to build a 35/40hp 2 stroke (yet). I don't care.

For a formula class that has different engine allowances it should be all based on proven achievable hp not weather someone wants there old dunger to keep going. The rules are allowing good development and lots of good competition in the class.

Question.

What rule changes would allow more younger riders to come through buckets safely and give them the skills needed to compete at a hi level?

I for one really enjoy racing with these young people and seeing them go on to glory in other classes. How can we offer more to these kids.

mr bucketracer

13th April 2014, 12:18

jasonu

13th April 2014, 12:40

Question.

What rule changes would allow more younger riders to come through buckets safely and give them the skills needed to compete at a hi level?

Do you think that is really necessary? I didn't know Buckets had turned into a feeder class. How many kids go through Buckets into the 'real' classes?

husaberg

13th April 2014, 13:08

64mm pistons heaps of choice. 156cc. Nothing to take it to 158 with out changing stroke.

As I have said the 2 strokes have a massive tech advantage. But as know one has managed to build a 35/40hp 2 stroke (yet). I don't care.

For a formula class that has different engine allowances it should be all based on proven achievable hp not weather someone wants there old dunger to keep going. The rules are allowing good development and lots of good competition in the class.

Question.

What rule changes would allow more younger riders to come through buckets safely and give them the skills needed to compete at a hi level?

I for one really enjoy racing with these young people and seeing them go on to glory in other classes. How can we offer more to these kids.

Massive tech advantage really? not much r&D has been spent on the two strokes lately?
but they do benefit from freely available information that has flowed since they departed from MGP.
It is unlikely we would have discovered at lot of the secrets if they hadn't.
Yet access to the information and Implementing it is another story.
The idea of 107 was not to mazimise cc's but allow the cheapest freely available pistons to be used.
I don't think it was so much about keeping them going but making them affordable.
Yes buckets are a formula class, but it is meant to be a affordable formula class..........
I challenge anyone to find a decent affordable 50-51mm piston with a 14mm pin and thin rings non dyke and a long enough skirt for a 50mm stroke.
I have scoured the net and so have others......

cotswold

13th April 2014, 13:12

[........
I challenge anyone to find a decent affordable 50-51mm piston with a 14mm pin and thin rings non dyke and a long enough skirt for a 50mm stroke.
I have scoured the net and so have others......[/QUOTE]

Challenge accepted

http://www.meteorpiston.com/Lists/Kart/Join.aspx?List=9c4c8edf-29c0-475a-8158-94a7e5779673&ID=274&Source=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Emeteorpiston%2Ecom%2FLis ts%2FKart%2FCatalog%2Easpx&RootFolder=%2FLists%2FKart

cotswold

13th April 2014, 13:13

I can see no reason capacities should or need to be changed, the 4 strokes were changed for the sole reason of saving bucket racing, the FXR was freely available in large quantities and say what you like but buckets would be dead without them.
A ( very ) good rider on an air cooled 125 lapped the entire field at a North Island round, the Hoogies won the GP on a Honda, Andrew on an FXR, Nigel won on his 100cc w/c and the latest has been young Nathaniel on his 80. If you take a look at the riders there is a common denominator, they are all good. The bikes are very different.

husaberg

13th April 2014, 13:21

I challenge anyone to find a decent affordable 50-51mm piston with a 14mm pin and thin rings non dyke and a long enough skirt for a 50mm stroke.
I have scoured the net and so have others......

Challenge accepted

http://www.meteorpiston.com/Lists/Kart/Join.aspx?List=9c4c8edf-29c0-475a-8158-94a7e5779673&ID=274&Source=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Emeteorpiston%2Ecom%2FLis ts%2FKart%2FCatalog%2Easpx&RootFolder=%2FLists%2FKart

Fail
It has a dykes ring have a closer look............:laugh:
plus the MB's start at 50.5mm std

cotswold

13th April 2014, 13:30

Fail
It has a dykes ring have a closer look............:laugh:

4 out of 5 aint bad

husaberg

13th April 2014, 13:31

4 out of 5 aint bad

3 out of 5:laugh:
i missed the bore

mr bucketracer

13th April 2014, 13:36

http://www.wossnerpistons.com/products/product-details/id/wos-8183d100/name/wossner-piston-yamaha-yz80-50-mm-bore?cookietest=1
don't know what the pin size is

husaberg

13th April 2014, 13:37

http://www.wossnerpistons.com/products/product-details/id/wos-8183d100/name/wossner-piston-yamaha-yz80-50-mm-bore?cookietest=1
don't know what the pin size is

12mm plus the rather large holes in the skirt.........
plus 50mm
2 out of 5 Scott...........
To save you guys time the only ones there seem to be arround are wiesco 105cc os for the AMA 85's and they are not cheap.
the other i think is the Rm100 not been made in 30+ years and not even common then.....

mr bucketracer

13th April 2014, 14:21

12mm plus the rather large holes in the skirt.........
plus 50mm
2 out of 5 Scott...........
To save you guys time the only ones there seem to be arround are wiesco 105cc os for the AMA 85's and they are not cheap.
the other i think is the Rm100 not been made in 30+ years and not even common then.....i have a rm100 piston in my tf100 , thats what i was looking for but the first one i found said it was 54mm .. thought i had lost my mined .. wisco rm pistion is nice

husaberg

13th April 2014, 14:32

i have a rm100 piston in my tf100 , thats what i was looking for but the first one i found said it was 54mm .. thought i had lost my mined .. wisco rm pistion is nice

yeah but they are all old stock now not likely to be remanufactured and not so cheap either, from memory the wiseco ones are 2 ring as well is that right.

TZ350

13th April 2014, 14:53

I challenge anyone to find a decent affordable 50-51mm piston with a 14mm pin and thin rings non dyke and a long enough skirt for a 50mm stroke.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/KAWASAKI-KE100-KE-100-WISECO-PISTON-KIT-50MM-50MM-OVER-BORE-ALL-YEARS/151041153433?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222008%26algo%3DSIC.MOTORS%26ao%3D 1%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3D6165395233782219 706%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D20131003132420%26rk%3D3 %26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D201062420253&rt=nc (http://www.ebay.com/itm/KAWASAKI-KE100-KE-100-WISECO-PISTON-KIT-50MM-50MM-OVER-BORE-ALL-YEARS/151041153433?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222008%26algo%3DSIC.MOTORS%26ao%3D 1%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3D6165395233782219 706%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D20131003132420%26rk%3D3 %26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D201062420253&rt=nc)

Wiseco Kawasaki KE100 50mm plus 0.5mm OS 14mm pin and thin rings. $77.55 USD each (aprox $88 NZD) eight available be quick.

$80USD http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Wiseco-Piston-76-00-Kawasaki-KE100-76-81-KM100-50-50mm-Piston-/221396132150?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&fits=Make%3AKawasaki|Model%3AKE100&hash=item338c3ce136&vxp=mtr

$34.54 USD http://www.ebay.com/itm/NP-KAWASAKI-WISECO-PISTON-100CC-74-82-G4TR-G5-G3SS-KE100-KH-KM-KV-KE100-369P4-/321377648008?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4ad399bd88&vxp=mtr

$85.77 USD 31 avaiable http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wiseco-369M04950-Piston-Kit-Standard-Bore-49-50mm-/231196802458?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&fits=Make%3AKawasaki|Model%3AKE100&hash=item35d4673d9a&vxp=mtr

$112.53 NZD 3 available ex Aus http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wiseco-Piston-49-50mm-Fits-Kawasaki-KE100-1986-2000-/310922874079?pt=AU_Motorcycle_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4864728cdf&vxp=mtr

$113.86 NSD 3 available http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wiseco-Piston-50-00mm-Fits-Kawasaki-KE100-1986-2000-/310920115891?pt=AU_Motorcycle_Parts_Accessories&hash=item48644876b3&vxp=mtr

$76.79 USD aprox $88.42 NZD 4 available http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wiseco-Piston-Kit-Kawasaki-KE100-86-00-49-5mm-/231121653756?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item35cfec8ffc&vxp=mtr

.
.
.
.

And so it goes on.

husaberg

13th April 2014, 14:56

http://www.ebay.com/itm/KAWASAKI-KE100-KE-100-WISECO-PISTON-KIT-50MM-50MM-OVER-BORE-ALL-YEARS/151041153433?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222008%26algo%3DSIC.MOTORS%26ao%3D 1%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3D6165395233782219 706%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D20131003132420%26rk%3D3 %26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D201062420253&rt=nc

Wiseco Kawasaki KE100 50mm plus 0.5mm OS $77.55 USD each (aprox $88 NZD) eight available be quick.

I will have a look but i hazard a guess they will have fat rings.
Yes 14mm pin price looks good, but bummer they only go to 50.5mm.
If only someone was still on std bore size after 30 years.
Never got as far as the rings but the pic is a generic wiesco one pretty sure they would be 2x fatties
the more i look at the wiesco cattledog the more 52mm makes sense the KTM105 is that bore as a the os for the late RM85 and the Kx100 they all have 14mm pins.........

TZ350

13th April 2014, 15:07

If only someone was still on std bore size

Forgot MB100's are 50.5 std :facepalm: but still they may be good for the water cooled RG400 cylinders or TF/TS 100s. These look to be current/recent production so hopefully Wiseco make other over sizes.

kel

13th April 2014, 15:08

kel

13th April 2014, 15:13

Forgot MB100's are 51.5 std :facepalm:
50.5, or was that sarcasm

husaberg

13th April 2014, 15:21

I seem to remember we all used RG400 pistons in our TF's, 14mm pin 50mm bore plus oversizes. Cheap and thousands still available today http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUZUKI-RG400-GAMMA-2-0mm-OVERSIZE-PISTON-SETS-4-Piston-Sets-Include-RG400-4-/130787011052?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1e738369ec&vxp=mtr . Whats more there are thin ring race variants available as well. Not nearly as sexy as a 52mm Strike though.

there are the thin ring variants i wouldn't mind seeing them.
Funny re the OS as i thought they were plated bores?
Oh maybe not.........
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/1252/rg400crosssection2.jpg
but 2 mm put them at 52mm LOL
The few i have seen that have used the 400 pistons reported shedding of the rings.
Busa pete?

mr bucketracer

13th April 2014, 15:28

yeah but they are all old stock now not likely to be remanufactured and not so cheap either, from memory the wiseco ones are 2 ring as well is that right.yes 2 rings , i just run the top ring , i payed $100 some years ago . the other is rg400 pistons ( i see already said ) but same promblem are they out there . who can help me find a 65mm cbr150 piston( forged) , snail net to slow

kel

13th April 2014, 15:31

[QUOTE=husaberg;1130706684]The few i have seen that have used the 400 pistons reported shedding of the rings.QUOTE]

Rings were fine, the skirts would crack, but those were the OEM's. RG400 has iron bore.

kel

13th April 2014, 15:39

but same promblem are they out there
yep aftermarket 50, 50.5, 51, 51.5 and 52mm all readily available and pretty damn cheap compared to what I pay for my Wisecos.
And its not just RG400 pistons in these sizes, but Im not sharing.

husaberg

13th April 2014, 15:50

yes 2 rings , i just run the top ring , i payed $100 some years ago . the other is rg400 pistons ( i see already said ) but same promblem are they out there . who can help me find a 65mm cbr150 piston( forged) , snail net to slow

I think i have deleted it but in about April 2012 i sent Rich a link to a site that have many many forged pistons to suit the 2 and 4 valver foul strokes.( i am happy to share)
no idea re the quality though..........

mr bucketracer

13th April 2014, 15:55

I think i have deleted it but in about April 2012 i sent Rich a link to a site that have many many forged pistons to suit the 2 and 4 valver foul strokes.( i am happy to share)
no idea re the quality though..........was it this site http://www.tkrj.co.jp/product/m-piston-kit.html#h

husaberg

13th April 2014, 15:59

was it this site http://www.tkrj.co.jp/product/m-piston-kit.html#h

No they were forged
It would have been Feb 2012, where are you rich?
I had to delete a lot of sent items.
I would have sent it to kicka as well about then

TZ350

13th April 2014, 16:01

yep aftermarket 50, 50.5, 51, 51.5 all readily available and pretty damn cheap compared to what I pay for my Wisecos. And its not just RG400 pistons in these sizes, but Im not sharing.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUZUKI-RG400-GAMMA-1-0mm-OVERSIZE-PISTON-SETS-RG400-2/141221592096?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222008%26algo%3DSIC.MOTORS%26ao%3D 1%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3D6166461390313735 400%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D20131003132420%26rk%3D1 %26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D130787011052&rt=nc (http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUZUKI-RG400-GAMMA-1-0mm-OVERSIZE-PISTON-SETS-RG400-2/141221592096?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222008%26algo%3DSIC.MOTORS%26ao%3D 1%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3D6166461390313735 400%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D20131003132420%26rk%3D1 %26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D130787011052&rt=nc)

1.0mm OS RG400 piston sets, it looks like $109.38 NZD for a set of four.

So it looks like there are plenty of suitable pistons for the different 100cc engines.

296133

Looks like the myth of needing a 107cc oversize allowance and 52mm + pistons because there was nothing else suitable for a 100 in the 50mm bore size is well and truly busted.

mr bucketracer

13th April 2014, 16:06

No they were forged
It would have been Feb 2012 where are you rich
I had to delete a lot of sent items.
I would have sent it to kicka as well about thenoh well will wait for the mighty rich .. thanks for your help

husaberg

13th April 2014, 16:17

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUZUKI-RG400-GAMMA-1-0mm-OVERSIZE-PISTON-SETS-RG400-2/141221592096?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222008%26algo%3DSIC.MOTORS%26ao%3D 1%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3D6166461390313735 400%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D20131003132420%26rk%3D1 %26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D130787011052&rt=nc (http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUZUKI-RG400-GAMMA-1-0mm-OVERSIZE-PISTON-SETS-RG400-2/141221592096?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222008%26algo%3DSIC.MOTORS%26ao%3D 1%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3D6166461390313735 400%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D20131003132420%26rk%3D1 %26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D130787011052&rt=nc)

1.0mm OS RG400 piston sets, it looks like $109.38 NZD for a set of four.

So it looks like there are plenty of suitable pistons for the different 100cc engines.

Looks like the myth of needing a 107cc oversize allowance and 52mm + pistons because there was nothing else suitable for a 100 in the 50mm bore size is well and truly busted.

Say what on a piston for a bike made nearly 30 years ago for a couple of years as a jap market only bike that you have to buy sets of pistons for in sets of 4. (I guess 2 of which will be different)
But these 4 are All the same size LOL) ship them from Japan.....have 2 sizes only .5mm apart that could work
these are made for a STD road bike reving to about 11000 Yet that no one is able to tell us where you can get pistons with decent rings (Kel says you can but can't prove it)for engines to rev to 14000rpm
.........and you say myth busted, i think maybe your option is plausible (at a push) and only if i are being generous.:laugh:

The strike pistons are available in any size from 52mm in tiny increments that do no need boring just honing and they are available at pretty much any Kart shop in the country at bloody cheap prices........This equally freely available.............
then again its Far more than Kel has brought forward to prove that ethanol mix fuel doesn't provide a cooling benefit to an aircooled two stroke i would say.......

husaberg

13th April 2014, 16:47

oh well will wait for the mighty rich .. thanks for your help

I am pretty sure this was the company the origional site has moved
and it looks like the range has got far far smaller..........
http://jvt-racing.com/home/?cat=24

Kickaha

13th April 2014, 17:04

I am pretty sure this was the company the origional site has moved
and it looks like the range has got far far smaller..........
http://jvt-racing.com/home/?cat=24

Yeah but I can get 66mm forged pistons for my baby any day of the week

jasonu

13th April 2014, 17:05

husaberg

13th April 2014, 17:58

Great price if they are any good. I don't see a manufacturer name or where they are made. Might be worth a punt though...

How do the front and rear piston rg vary?
if they have contra rotating cranks and reversed cylinders is it just the tolerances that vary?

kel

13th April 2014, 18:02

husaberg

13th April 2014, 18:10

Yep. Guess we should pass the info on to MNZ and stop these lazy #### 100cc riders from being so, ahh, lazy!
Oh no wait that's not very nice. I know, lets not stop at 107cc as proposed, lets make it 111cc :laugh:

Kel show me the information that ethanol does not lower intake temps again.......... i have asked you 4 times.

For those that missed the last attempt to drum up support from the Air cooled boy this was the last attempt to push through E85
the reasoning was the same the fact it was a clear attemppt to pervert the rules was the same
although at this time it was oh e85 would not make a air-cooled 2 stroke run cooler...

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/158831-Buckets-fuel-rule

kel

13th April 2014, 18:36

e85 waffle waffle waffle
Oh I still want E85 but if you bothered to deal with the proposed rule changes rather than acting as the troll that you are you would see, as everyone else does, that E85 is clearly excluded.
What did Dave say recently, wasn't it "Back under your bridge where you belong" :laugh: fitting isn't it.

husaberg

13th April 2014, 18:45

Oh I still want E85 but if you bothered to deal with the proposed rule changes rather than acting as the troll that you are you would see, as everyone else does, that E85 is clearly excluded.
What did Dave say recently, wasn't it "Back under your bridge where you belong" :laugh: fitting isn't it.

But the point is you constantly harped on the e85 would offer no advantage yet when as it has been clearly mentioned even by others including by Rob here here that it would. Which thoughts do you stand by So kel would E85 offer a cooling advantage or Not .........

I ask you yet again to prove that any ethanol fuel does not provide a cooling advantage for an aircooled two stroke..............
I can draw a conclusion, can you........

Re the Troll For the record Kel i have repeatedly tried to debate the issue on its merits you continue to snipe and refuse to answer questions when cornered you resort to personal attacks.............

richban

13th April 2014, 18:46

Massive tech advantage really?

WHAT I MEANT WAS, YOU CAN MAKE TWICE THE HORSEPOWER WITH A 2 STROKE.

Technically the rules give a massive advantage.

A capacity advantage for 2 strokes.

Just seams know one can make one the spits 400hp per litre of 350 per litre. But the for stokes are better developed at the moment. Take a nice tuned GPR bike. 26.5 hp thats 170 per litre. Double that for a 2 stroke and still know one has come close to 34hp.

Oh what a good wind up this is. With all the free info available on the net, and the ESE thread is a gold mine how come there are no 34hp 100's out there.

Yow Ling

13th April 2014, 18:56

. With all the free info available on the net, and the ESE thread is a gold mine how come there are no 34hp 100's out there.

Cos there no app to download. Would have to get dirty hands

richban

13th April 2014, 19:06

M
Yes buckets are a formula class, but it is meant to be a affordable formula class..........

Oh you walked into that one mate.

WTFuck dude.

Cheapest motor sport there is. What you spend is up to you. If you want to play at the top. Learn how to ride and don't eat so many pies and ummmmmm, yep its still fucken cheap. Its only the fat old whining gits like you and me and all the other old cocks on here that spend loads of cash trying to make up for the fact that we are not young or skinny.

husaberg

13th April 2014, 19:10

Oh you walked into that one mate.

WTFuck dude.

Cheapest motor sport there is. What you spend is up to you. If you want to play at the top. Learn how to ride and don't eat so many pies and ummmmmm, yep its still fucken cheap. Its only the fat old whining gits like you and me and all the other old cocks on here that spend loads of cash trying to make up for the fact that we are not young or skinny.
All very very true but i are no longer A fatty...........

Kickaha

13th April 2014, 19:12

All very very true but i are no longer A fatty...........
Compared to who? Buddha?

husaberg

13th April 2014, 19:22

Compared to who? Buddha?

I am well under 80, Buddha carries his weight well.........for a fatty (i can out run him)

For those that like facts and figures.
Unrelated to Budha

This is because the latent heat of vaporization for ethanol (904 kJ/kg) is almost three
times higher than that of gasoline (317.7 kJ/kg). In other words ethanol droplets will need almost
three times higher sensible heat for the same temperature rise compared to the gasoline droplet.
Thus, the effect of latent heat is reflected in the surface temperature plot, as the surface
temperature of the droplet determines the corresponding vapor pressure. Figure 7b also shows
that temperature rise for gasoline droplet is faster than ethanol droplet..

Oh look any ethanol petrol blend fuel has a cooling advantage compared to a straight petrol blend Gee or would have guesses that.............

speedpro

13th April 2014, 20:53

The RG400 pistons I used in my TF100 were the rear ones. If I recall, I used the rears due to the pin offset direction. Even with very careful prep I only used them for 2 meetings before replacing. They developed cracks which if you let them go would cause the rear skirt to drop off, or if you were lucky a crack would extend right to the crown and then a little hole would burn through. They weren't cheap. Don't know about now. The cracking was likely due to the enlarged piston ports in the bottom rear of the TF cylinder.

People with 100cc 2 strokes aren't pushing the boundaries of what's possible. Failures have not been due to power levels but rather to failed experiments or poor prep or a few other things. It does seem that right now there is no need. A fast rider on a light good handling bike with an engine that makes 25hp(ish) is plenty.

With all the listed pistons above I have not seen any that come close to rivalling the KT pistons for price, design, or availability. Plus with the KT's very small increments of .05mm oversizes, as I've said, the cylinders will last forever, unless you're unlucky.

Making the engine 2cc larger is not going to make much difference to performance of any bike currently running. There's other things that need to be done that will have a far greater effect on performance. The BIG thing is the piston cost and availability, and having a cylinder's life extended.

jasonu

14th April 2014, 04:51

How do the front and rear piston rg vary?
if they have contra rotating cranks and reversed cylinders is it just the tolerances that vary?

No idea mate. We used mostly MB pistons. Had to move the ring pin to make them work. Never broke one.

jasonu

14th April 2014, 04:55

Oh what a good wind up this is. With all the free info available on the net, and the ESE thread is a gold mine how come there are no 34hp 100's out there.

They came very close but the bike was unrideable and wouldn't stay together long enough to finish a race.

husaberg

14th April 2014, 08:46

graph 2 shows temp difference between petrol and (E50) 50/50 ethanol petrol at approx 3 degrees Kelvin :lol:
graph 1 shows temp difference between petrol and E10 at approx 4 degrees Kelvin now thats exciting :lol: But at least after all your hot air you have actually managed to contribute something related to the thread.
4 degrees Kelvin or 111cc hmm :clap:
E10 vs dirty old leaded Avgas for max power :clap:
Winning arguments all round Husa

Perhaps as you now have just freely admitted,” that it is an advantage in regards to intake cooling.”
You can show us how that "little couple "of degrees intake temp affects power output.

I note that you have previously stuck to the opinion that e85 would also offer no advantage in regards to power output and cooling...

So looking at the fact that E85 clearly and clearly and blatantly obviously does, as does any fuel that contains ethanol. Does that not clearly demonstrate that your original stance was totally incorrect?

FastFred

14th April 2014, 09:52

Perhaps as you now have just freely admitted,” that it is an advantage in regards to intake cooling.” You can show us how that "little couple "of degrees intake temp affects power output.

I think the arguments have been that in practical terms the 10% Ethanol that would be allowed with the proposed deletion of the no alcohol rule wont improve the power output in an air cooled 2T and may in fact be a negative.

But perhaps from that SAE paper you can show us how the "little couple" of degrees intake temp from 10% Ethanol affects power output of an air cooled 2T motor.

I have read this thread from the beginning, most of the arguments seem to have merit and I am following it with interest as I imagine others are too. But I think if you want to keep talking about E85 maybe you should start another thread as E85 has no relevance on this one. This thread is about deleting one rule and changing another, E85 does not come into it anywhere.

husaberg

14th April 2014, 11:31

I think the arguments have been that in practical terms the 10% Ethanol that would be allowed wont improve the power output in an air cooled 2T and may in fact be a negative.

So Perhaps from that SAE paper you can show us how that "little couple" of degrees intake temp from 10% Ethanol affects power output of an air cooled 2T.

I have read this from the beginning, most of the arguments seem to have merit and I am following it with interest as I imagine others are too. But I think if you want to keep talking about E85 maybe you should start another thread as E85 has no relevance on this on. This is about deleting one rule and changing another E85 does not come into it anywhere.

E85 is being mentioned, solely as the last time ethanol use was debated someone repeatedly and consistently inferred that they could see no advantage in its use in an air cooled 2 stroke. despite evidence being presented to the contrary.......
It is raised solely because it speaks to the integirity of their subsequent arguments.

With the E10 "A little couple of degrees of intake temp" actually makes a difference....
I would suggest much more than a few cc's of capacity would.

This in mind, would you conversely suggest that it is ok to run an oversize engine that is larger than the rules body state as beng legal"as it would only make a small difference"......
However small a difference anyone deems it to be. It is still an advantage.

Esp when you take into account that the mixture in a tuned two stroke would be optimised for an ethanol mixture, thus would be substantially richer than the standard fuel mixtures likely used in the examples, thus compounding the advantage, Everyone knows ethanol likes to be run richer.
Re the Sae papers, it is not up to me to prove how small a difference it makes, It is up to the protagonists to prove that it doesn't.
As they are stating that it does not.
I have seen no evidence at all presented, that it does not.
Yet i have presented evidence that it does provide an advantage.
Despite myself reapeatidly asking for evidence to back the oposing opinion from someone.
In response they presented nothing to back their position. Indeed they just resort to personal attacks and sniping..........

Yet i have easily shown that it does have a cooling advantage.
However insignificant you or how significant i deem it to be.
At the end of the day submissions and feedback will be made and the MNZ will do what ever they deem to be in the best interests of the sport as a whole.

kel

14th April 2014, 14:27

You lot are no fun, I thought this provocative thread was set up quite nicely :weep:

Thanks Husa, you more than made up for the slow start. Hope you didn't lose too much sleep. Until next time :bye:

jasonu

14th April 2014, 15:55

The gap between the gears is more important than whether it's a 5 or 6 speed

Maybe so but a 5 spd with bigger gaps (than a 6 speed box) between the gears coupled with a peaky power delivery is not a good combination.

F5 Dave

14th April 2014, 17:42

And still we struggle to find decent pistons. From time to time I get excited when there is a slight glimmer of hope, but usually it is the 'generic picture' one size fits all website, we have an enormous catalog information that gets you hooked.

Woosner had advertised oversizes for an orphan 1981 YZ80, the picture looks great, the price good, the site seems to indicate you can buy 50.5 & 51mm. Ok might have to change to a Yam rodkit for the 16mm pin.

But c'mon, a one year made 33yr old minibike oversize. What's the chances you will actually get product? or rings? Let alone look like the modern piston in the picture? Why would they stock them? Why would they replenish that stock if they ran out? Vintage racing is old men so 250s, not minibikes.

Everything you find is vintage listings. Suzuki pistons of the 70s & 80s just aren't up to the revs.

Flettner

14th April 2014, 18:17

Not that this has anything to do with this thread ( although I am following it ) but how may pistons / cylinders are 100 cc water cooled allowed?

Flettner

14th April 2014, 18:48

And how may gears?

Flettner

14th April 2014, 19:26

Sooo, same as the old days then. If the gearbox is "manufactured" from scratch it's leagal.
"Specials" are leagal and in fact encouraged then ( like the old days )?

husaberg

14th April 2014, 19:32

Thanks Husa, you more than made up for the slow start. Hope you didn't lose too much sleep. Until next time :bye:

And yet you insinuate i am the troll.........classic.........

Not that this has anything to do with this thread ( although I am following it ) but how may pistons / cylinders are 100 cc water cooled allowed?

No limit on cylinder numbers.........

And how may gears?

Any.......... as long as it is not based on a Competition engines'ssssssssss

Sooo, same as the old days then. If the gearbox is "manufactured" from scratch it's leagal.
"Specials" are leagal and in fact encouraged then ( like the old days )?

As far as i am aware...........

Flettner

14th April 2014, 19:35

just asking, as you were, thanks.

Yow Ling

14th April 2014, 20:25

Any.......... as long as it is not based on a Competition engines'ssssssssss

Based or sourced from ? what does based mean ?

here is rule, I know you are famous for the s interpretation, this is just for normal people who dont read rulebook with fervor
24.2 Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted.

anything you get made is legal

husaberg

14th April 2014, 20:41

Based or sourced from ? what does based mean ?

here is rule, I know you are famous for the s interpretation, this is just for normal people who dont read rulebook with fervor
24.2 Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted.

anything you get made is legal

awe......I couldn't be assed, but i added the SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS'es anyway...Fervor is a excellent description Mike i am zealous :bleh:
I see there is a transmission company still in CHCH they make reduction boxes but still do one off inc Motorcyles.....
http://www.penfold.co.nz/compover.html

TZ350

14th April 2014, 22:30

64mm pistons heaps of choice. 156cc. Nothing to take it to 158 with out changing stroke.

What is the next common piston size after 64mm, what would the capacity be?

jasonu

15th April 2014, 00:55

Not that this has anything to do with this thread ( although I am following it ) but how may pistons / cylinders are 100 cc water cooled allowed?
as many as you want

And how may gears?
as many as you want

Sooo, same as the old days then. If the gearbox is "manufactured" from scratch it's leagal.
"Specials" are leagal and in fact encouraged then ( like the old days )?
Correct

richban

15th April 2014, 07:19

What is the next common piston size after 64mm, what would the capacity be?

Don't know. If i needed a bigger piston I would just get some made. The Wiseco and JE pistons are too heavy anyway.

mr bucketracer

15th April 2014, 07:54

What is the next common piston size after 64mm, what would the capacity be?most the 600 fours are to big at around 67mm , i did find some at 65.5 . the trouble been the valve cut outs are never right ( to big ) so you end up with steped cut outs which just losses com which is hard enough to get . like rich said get one made somewhere for 500 bucks . if you think 2 stroke pistons are pricey and hard to get think again.:weep:

Grumph

15th April 2014, 15:55

Don't know. If i needed a bigger piston I would just get some made. The Wiseco and JE pistons are too heavy anyway.

Latest Wiseco FZR600 66mm are actually pretty good. There's enough racing in AHRMA etc that I think they've revisited the dies and a done a lightening session. Pin position is pretty high up too.

ken seeber

15th April 2014, 16:17

Have been looking at this thread and thought that I’d offer what might be available from STRIKE in terms of pistons for the 2 strokes.

Essentially, we make (in Perth West Oz) two styles of pistons to suit Yamaha kart engines that are commonly used in Australia:

• KT100J. This is a 50 * 50 engine that is allowed up to 51.0 piston size under Australian Karting Association rules. This may soon go up to 51.2/51.3 to allow people to get more life from their cylinder barrels. Unfortunately this piston must use the original style of semi trapezoidal ring design, which has been shown to be troublesome particularly with slightly differing ring thicknesses from different suppliers. This has a 14 mm pin, 100 mm crown radius, with a compression height of a nominal 32.9 mm and we do them in 0.01 increments. So no boring, but just honing to til the bore is of the correct finish and geometry. This is best done with a honing head that is at least as long as the cylinder to ensure straightness. We have made oversize versions of these, 52 mm upwards that utilize the much better 1.0 mm rail rings that are used in KT100S engine. These pistons are available in 0.01 size increments and rings in 0.05mm increments.
• KT100S. This is a 52 * 46.1 engine that is allowed up to 53.0 piston size under Australian Karting Association rules. This may soon go up to 53.2/53.3 to allow people to get more life from their cylinder barrels. These obviously use the 1.0 mm rail rings, available as above. Again a 14 mm pin, 100 mm crown radius, but with a compression height of 23.0 mm. We make these in sizes up to 55 plus, but in these larger oversizes we only have rings in 0.25 increments (bit of extra filing, but seems to work well).

If you go to www.strikeproducts.com.au you can see more info on these plus the pricing, which we consider to be completely reasonable. Not sure if this is of any help, but there you go.

As a comment from an outsider, I would go for E85 anytime, because it contains oxygen, the key ingredient to making power. The more trapped oxygen the better and also allows you raise the compression ratio over that of a (detonation limited) petrol running engine.

Thanks

Ken

mr bucketracer

15th April 2014, 16:31

Thanks ken , i'm shore there will be some happy lads to see what you have..!!!

F5 Dave

15th April 2014, 16:59

FastFred

16th April 2014, 07:39

MB/H100 standard stroke = 49.5mm, with a 52mm piston makes a 105.12cc engine. Using standard MB/H stroke of 49.5mm and a piston of 52.45 makes an engine of 106.95.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/KAWASAKI-KE100-KE-100-WISECO-PISTON-KIT-50MM-50MM-OVER-BORE-ALL-YEARS/151041153433?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222008%26algo%3DSIC.MOTORS%26ao%3D 1%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3D6165395233782219 706%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D20131003132420%26rk%3D3 %26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D201062420253&rt=nc (http://www.ebay.com/itm/KAWASAKI-KE100-KE-100-WISECO-PISTON-KIT-50MM-50MM-OVER-BORE-ALL-YEARS/151041153433?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222008%26algo%3DSIC.MOTORS%26ao%3D 1%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3D6165395233782219 706%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D20131003132420%26rk%3D3 %26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D201062420253&rt=nc)

Wiseco Kawasaki KE100 50mm plus 0.5mm OS 14mm pin and thin rings. $77.55 USD each (aprox $88 NZD) eight available be quick.

$80USD http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Wiseco-Piston-76-00-Kawasaki-KE100-76-81-KM100-50-50mm-Piston-/221396132150?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&fits=Make%3AKawasaki|Model%3AKE100&hash=item338c3ce136&vxp=mtr

$34.54 USD http://www.ebay.com/itm/NP-KAWASAKI-WISECO-PISTON-100CC-74-82-G4TR-G5-G3SS-KE100-KH-KM-KV-KE100-369P4-/321377648008?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4ad399bd88&vxp=mtr

$85.77 USD 31 avaiable http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wiseco-369M04950-Piston-Kit-Standard-Bore-49-50mm-/231196802458?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&fits=Make%3AKawasaki|Model%3AKE100&hash=item35d4673d9a&vxp=mtr

$112.53 NZD 3 available ex Aus http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wiseco-Piston-49-50mm-Fits-Kawasaki-KE100-1986-2000-/310922874079?pt=AU_Motorcycle_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4864728cdf&vxp=mtr

$113.86 NSD 3 available http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wiseco-Piston-50-00mm-Fits-Kawasaki-KE100-1986-2000-/310920115891?pt=AU_Motorcycle_Parts_Accessories&hash=item48644876b3&vxp=mtr

$76.79 USD aprox $88.42 NZD 4 available http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wiseco-Piston-Kit-Kawasaki-KE100-86-00-49-5mm-/231121653756?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item35cfec8ffc&vxp=mtr

And so it goes on.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUZUKI-RG400-GAMMA-1-0mm-OVERSIZE-PISTON-SETS-RG400-2/141221592096?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222008%26algo%3DSIC.MOTORS%26ao%3D 1%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3D6166461390313735 400%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D20131003132420%26rk%3D1 %26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D130787011052&rt=nc (http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUZUKI-RG400-GAMMA-1-0mm-OVERSIZE-PISTON-SETS-RG400-2/141221592096?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222008%26algo%3DSIC.MOTORS%26ao%3D 1%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3D6166461390313735 400%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D20131003132420%26rk%3D1 %26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D130787011052&rt=nc)

1.0mm OS RG400 piston sets, it looks like $109.38 NZD for a set of four.

So it looks like there are plenty of suitable pistons for the different 100cc engines.

296133

Looks like the myth of needing a 107cc oversize allowance and 52mm + pistons because there was nothing else suitable for a 100 in the 50mm bore size is well and truly busted.

Have been looking at this thread and thought that I’d offer what might be available from STRIKE in terms of pistons for the 2 strokes.

Essentially, we make (in Perth West Oz) two styles of pistons to suit Yamaha kart engines that are commonly used in Australia:

• KT100J. This is a 50 * 50 engine that is allowed up to 51.0 piston size under Australian Karting Association rules. This may soon go up to 51.2/51.3 to allow people to get more life from their cylinder barrels. This has a 14 mm pin, 100 mm crown radius, with a compression height of a nominal 32.9 mm and we do them in 0.01 increments. If you go to www.strikeproducts.com.au you can see more info on these plus the pricing, which we consider to be completely reasonable. Not sure if this is of any help, but there you go. Ken

Hi Ken My engine is destroked to take a 52mm piston, well actually it can go up to 52.3mm,

Looks like a de-stroke or plenty of pistons for for the current capacity limit if you look around.

husaberg

16th April 2014, 07:51

Looks like a de-stroke or plenty of pistons for for the current capacity limit if you look around.

Fred as i pointed out the Kawa pistons do no go big enough, they don't go past .5os for an MB. even with the largest Wiesco do......
In fact none of the ones posted with fit an std MB......
as dave and mike pointed out, the others are not suitable for high revs.
The strike piston that suits without destroking from ken has a unsuitable crown height for our use.
Ask Yow (the other mIke)
Strike pistons are quality and great price available locally, totally suited to the application other than size. (This is not Kens fault.)
I blame Yamaha....

F5 Dave

16th April 2014, 09:18

Looks like a de-stroke or plenty of pistons for for the current capacity limit if you look around.
C'mon Freob, all it pointed out is we have to destroke the engines to run KT or similar pistons. And to get much further you have to destroke beyond reasonable limits of the crank. It isn't a simple offset bore a bigger pin type job. Its a compromise & not particularly cheap. Every rodkit means machining a pin.

I have one std bore MB barrel, that I might be able to run a 50.5, but it is a bit worn. We're also talking vintage old school pistons.

ken seeber

16th April 2014, 17:26

Hi Ken

Thanks for the input & I certainly have had your products recommended. Sadly I haven't been able to use them because

a) the J piston isn't really suitable, the crown height is a bit tall by about a cm, but it suits that particular engine of course so I won't complain that doesn't suit me.

b) My engine is destroked to take a 52mm piston, well actually it can go up to 52.3mm, but I was told by the local kart guy who is keen on your product that Strike starts from 52.5. - perhaps this is incorrect? Not real clear in the price list online.

Either way this requires a destroke in most engines we run, so if you'd be jolly decent & run up a batch of 50.5 to 51mm sizes of KT100S pistons & rings for the few that you'd sell over here & potentially to the Auss bucket racers over there it would be mighty nice of you.. . if potentially not so viable. Heck maybe it isn't so hard these days?

Dave,

As with all these things, there is bad news, medium news and good news.

The STRIKE KT100S pistons, that have the lower crown height, only come in sizes from 52.00 upwards with the 1.00 mm rail style rings. We could try to do them at 50.5, but all we would be left with would be the crown & pin bosses and no skirt. We are not aware of 1.00mm rail rings being available in very fine size increments. This is the bad news.

The good news is that we are also the Oz importer of Meteor kart pistons. They do all sorts of KZ, KF etc etc pistons, but also the 50 mm sizes as used in the earlier reeds & rotaries. These have a 14 mm pin witha compression height of 26 mm. Currently we have these up to 50.16 (to suit a bore size of around 50.27). Meteor are looking to make these in sizes up to 51 and beyond and in very fine size increments. This is so people can keep their vintage motors running. The medium news is that these pistons are basically designed for a 3 transfer port engine so the ring anti rotation pin is indexed around by 45 degrees. Depending on the motor this might cause the ring gap (or ring end) to become exposed in a 4 transfer port engine. However, if the ring gap is in the centre of the port, then this might be ok as this is often done. One example being the Rotax Max kart engine, although in this case the gap (and the C port) is directly opposite the exhaust so there would be no real possible effect of the piston rocking causing the A/R pin to maybe force a ring end outwards.

Suggest that if the excites you, you might want to go to a kart engine builder and grab an old 50 * 50 reed/rotary piston (as these were all generically very similar) and see how it might fit.

As an aside, instead of stroking by modifying the crank, there is the offset crankpin alternative. These come in 20 mm with, I think, 1 & 2 mm offsets. A simple press operation.

Ken

speedpro

16th April 2014, 17:39

. . . . . As an aside, instead of stroking by modifying the crank, there is the offset crankpin alternative. These come in 20 mm with, I think, 1 & 2 mm offsets. A simple press operation.

Ken

This would be of interest to a lot of us bucket racers. Dave had a 22mm pin offset ground on the ends but there was a problem though not sure if related to the pin and modification. I myself have had a pin with a 22mm centre and 20mm ends made from scratch. the centres are offset .75mm for a 1.5mm stroke reduction. All up with the dummy pin I had made to test balance and then the good pin ground to precise dimensions and heat treating and the rod kit my crank was over $1000 more than 10 years ago. The crank wheels had to be machined back on the big end thrust washer faces to make allowances for the wider rod.

With the offset is there much trouble getting the big end bearing and rod fitted or can you wriggle them on? The rod won't be a problem but the bearing might be if the rollers are trapped type. What is the width of the various sections of each diameter? The centre part needs to be the correct width for the rod + washers + clearance and the outer parts need to be long enough to fully engage with the crank wheels.

F5 Dave

16th April 2014, 17:49

Thanks Ken

Option one would obviously be a lightweight piston, but piston slap may be unacceptable:msn-wink: & as you say, no rings

I've been looking at IAME stuff some while back (for those non karties, I think it stands for Italian American something engines). I think Meteor covered stuff in that stable. I am talking from a position o ignorance (as usual, but it doesn't stop me).

I run the KT piston with the ring over the open boost port. But indeed it is at the back opposing the symmetrical exhaust. Twisting & unsupported in an open port, well it might work but I'd give it evens.

I see Mike has put some questions as I'm typing this. My pin failure I think was unrelated, but it did crack at the interface which raises a question even though we were very concerned & did what could be achieved to reduce stress raiser from sharp corners (machinist sees this stuff all the time). We believe my issue was rotation in the crank as the scribe lines no longer lined up & vibration went up. spot of the dreaded weld seems to have cured that.

Either way destroking is a pain for several reasons & can be quite pricey,

ken seeber

16th April 2014, 18:27

This would be of interest to a lot of us bucket racers. Dave had a 22mm pin offset ground on the ends but there was a problem though not sure if related to the pin and modification. I myself have had a pin with a 22mm centre and 20mm ends made from scratch. the centres are offset .75mm for a 1.5mm stroke reduction. All up with the dummy pin I had made to test balance and then the good pin ground to precise dimensions and heat treating and the rod kit my crank was over $1000 more than 10 years ago. The crank wheels had to be machined back on the big end thrust washer faces to make allowances for the wider rod.

With the offset is there much trouble getting the big end bearing and rod fitted or can you wriggle them on? The rod won't be a problem but the bearing might be if the rollers are trapped type. What is the width of the various sections of each diameter? The centre part needs to be the correct width for the rod + washers + clearance and the outer parts need to be long enough to fully engage with the crank wheels.

Have a look at the following:
http://www.sip-scootershop.com/main/base/Results.aspx?t=eccentric+pin&d=(sco,ape,lam,old,px,sma,max,atv,mot)&a=1&sort=0

Couple of guys over here have used these in KT100S engines. You are right in that the relief for the big end in the crank webs would have to be checked and possibly machined out.

Ken

husaberg

16th April 2014, 19:23

Have a look at the following:
http://www.sip-scootershop.com/main/base/Results.aspx?t=eccentric+pin&d=(sco,ape,lam,old,px,sma,max,atv,mot)&a=1&sort=0

Couple of guys over here have used these in KT100S engines. You are right in that the relief for the big end in the crank webs would have to be checked and possibly machined out.

Ken

Ken do the 50-51mm kart piston that could work for us (you mentioned above meteor) have dykes or plain ring...?

speedpro

16th April 2014, 21:58

Have a look at the following:
http://www.sip-scootershop.com/main/base/Results.aspx?t=eccentric+pin&d=(sco,ape,lam,old,px,sma,max,atv,mot)&a=1&sort=0
Ken

No good. We need shorter stroke, not longer.

husaberg

16th April 2014, 22:18

No good. We need shorter stroke, not longer.

That's funny Mike......

Pumba

27th August 2014, 19:58

Bert

27th August 2014, 20:03

Covered elsewhere but MNZ rule changes are out.

http://www.mnz.co.nz/docs/default-source/Newsletters/mnz-rule-changes---to-be-linked.pdf?sfvrsn=2

Bit surprised that there has been a change to rule 24.6. Dont remember any changes to that one being proposed. Does anyone know what has been changed?

Points one?

It's been put up a number of times now: to fall in line with all other classes. Not sure whom put it up this year though...

And one more change - for the better, NZGP recognised within (all be it after) the championship classes in appendix D

Pumba

27th August 2014, 20:07

Points one?

It's been put up a number of times now: to fall in line with all other classes. Not sure whom put it up this year though...

Yea that the one. I know it makes bugger all difference (well defiantly to me. I would have to turn up to score points) but with out dragging this down "that" route. It frustrates me when process are not followed, and to the best of my knowledge it was not advertised.

husaberg

27th August 2014, 20:10

Yea that the one. I know it makes bugger all difference (well defiantly to me. I would have to turn up to score points) but with out dragging this down "that" route. It frustrates me when process are not followed, and to the best of my knowledge it was not advertised.

I think it was just to pull it into lines with the other classes, it might be a FIM thing, maybe a prelude into buckets making it into Motogp...... GP4 and GP5 anyone........;)

Bert

27th August 2014, 20:10

Yea that the one. I know it makes bugger all difference (well defiantly to me. I would have to turn up to score points) but with out dragging this down "that" route. It frustrates me when process are not followed, and to the best of my knowledge it was not advertised.

Don't get me started about due process.... I'm keeping positive, but looking at the proposed rule changes none of these changes have been notified...

Humm time for more emails and no replies (shit did it type that)!!!

FastFred

28th August 2014, 11:16

Just FYI for those that may miss it (and subsequently bitch about it later). In this years proposed rule changes, it is proposed to delete rule 24.2.1.

It went through so just like the big bikes, you can now run decent pump fuel at half the price of av gas.

F5 Dave

28th August 2014, 11:21

Sorry I'm missing something here Rob, what do you mean decent pump gas?

And where are you buying $4 Av gas? Do you have to buy the fuel can every time?

jasonu

28th August 2014, 11:26

I think it was just to pull it into lines with the other classes, it might be a FIM thing, maybe a prelude into buckets making it into Motogp...... GP4 and GP5 anyone........;)

More likely to happen to Buckets than any other of the bullshit classes in NZ.

kel

28th August 2014, 12:57

Sorry I'm missing something here Rob, what do you mean decent pump gas?

And where are you buying $4 Av gas? Do you have to buy the fuel can every time?

Damn you caught us Dave, it was all a have so we could get E10 legalised :nya:

Oh no wait its 165 Neilson St just as it has always been. :motu:

FastFred

28th August 2014, 14:58

And where are you buying $4 Av gas? 165 Neilson St just as it has always been. :motu:

What do others have to pay for Av Gas?

Anyway who cares, now everyone has a wider range of choice and the 2T boys can now legally pre mix oil into their fuel and maybe use a dash of Acetone if they have trouble with the oil separating out.

And for those that might think to ask, no, Acetone is not an Alcohol, it is a Ketone.

Alex

F5 Dave

28th August 2014, 16:25

erm about $2.80 I think, its been a while. Depending on how the rule is written currently & I'm too lazy to relook, but back a while it looked illegal to add oil to the mix as its an 'additive'

Grumph

28th August 2014, 17:34

What do others have to pay for Av Gas?

Anyway who cares, now everyone has a wider range of choice and the 2T boys can now legally pre mix oil into their fuel and maybe use a dash of Acetone if they have trouble with the oil separating out.

And for those that might think to ask, no, Acetone is not an Alcohol, it is a Ketone.

Alex

All well and good - rule 24.2.1 is deleted. BUT that does not help as there seems to be no follow up as to exactly what can be used..

Unless/until Appendix E is amended - or rule 10.17 is altered to put buckets in the appropriate section, there's no clear direction...

i know one GN at least which would go very well on Methanol....

FastFred

28th August 2014, 18:06

All well and good - rule 24.2.1 is deleted. BUT that does not help as there seems to be no follow up as to exactly what can be used......

10.17.1 The following classes shall be restricted to petrol having maximum
characteristics not exceeding “Avgas or Unleaded FIM” as defined in Appendix
E. Motocross, Stadium/Supercross, Miniature TT, Trials, Enduro, Cross Country,
ATV, Stockbike, Solo, All Road Race classes except those classes listed in
10.17.2 and 10.17.3. All Mini and Junior classes.

I see words in there like "all road race classes" which F4 and F5 (Miniature Road Racing) are a part of, "being restricted to petrol as defined by appendix E".

The rule book is a bit fragmented and confusing with its different sections, but it looks to me that F4 & F5 are clearly covered by the term "all road race classes" and are restricted to petrol as defined in appendix E. Its only the specific RR classes that are named that are able to use a fuel other than petrol and that fuel is defined in E too.

Alex.

Bert

28th August 2014, 19:35

10.17.1 The following classes shall be restricted to petrol having maximum
characteristics not exceeding “Avgas or Unleaded FIM” as defined in Appendix
E. Motocross, Stadium/Supercross, Miniature TT, Trials, Enduro, Cross Country,
ATV, Stockbike, Solo, All Road Race classes except those classes listed in
10.17.2 and 10.17.3. All Mini and Junior classes.

I see words in there like "all road race classes" which F4 and F5 (Miniature Road Racing) are a part of, "being restricted to petrol as defined by appendix E".

The rule book is a bit fragmented and confusing with its different sections, but it looks to me that F4 & F5 are clearly covered by the term "all road race classes" and are restricted to petrol as defined in appendix E. Its only the specific RR classes that are named that are able to use a fuel other than petrol and that fuel is defined in E too.

Alex.

Actually Alex, there is already separation within MOMS between road racing and miniature road racing. With this separation (and supplementary rules to apply to miniature road racing) means that there is a hole. Don't just assume what MOMS should mean; it is as read and as written and structured...

Someone famous once said, best cheating is finding the holes in the rule book. While we can re litigate the spirt of the class vs. rules: we are governed by the rules and race GPs accordingly.

Brent

TZ350

28th August 2014, 19:51

Actually Alex, there is already separation within MOMS between road racing and miniature road racing.

Hi Bert, I need your help with an explanation. I have been watching this thread, but don't understand what MOMS is, or where to find it in the rule book. :scratch:totally deficient I know ... :facepalm:

Bert

28th August 2014, 19:56

Hi Bert, I need your help with an explanation. I have been watching this thread, but don't understand what MOMS is, or where to find it in the rule book. :scratch:totally deficient I know ... :facepalm:

Manual of Motorsport. Or now "general competition rules"... But gCR doesn't quite have the same ring to it....

http://www.mnz.co.nz/regulations/rules/general-rules

It use to arrive in hard copy... So I'm still stuck in the dark ages and showing my age.
And you always do what your Mum (Mom) tells you to do...

Kickaha

28th August 2014, 20:48

i know one GN at least which would go very well on Methanol....
Sounds like a great idea, Methanol for two valve four strokes :2thumbsup

TZ350

28th August 2014, 21:26

... there is already separation within MOMS between road racing and miniature road racing.

Thanks Bert ... can you point me to where this separation is stated in the current rules.

Bert

29th August 2014, 00:34

Thanks Bert ... can you point me to where this separation is stated in the current rules.

Really Rob? Ok how do you interrupt the structure of the current rules?
Start at chapter 1-3 then 24, back to 10 (technical) then back to 24 (sidecars),appendix D as a different class from championship classes (which has slight differences), now to F from 10 & D (or what ever for fuel). The mere fact that 24 exists warrants reference in 10 & D in how F will be applied. Otherwise it is an assumption. Having submitted new rules in the past, 24 was actually one of the best structured set for any classes in moms, now it has lost some of its context..

Anyway E10 will work great in GPR150 or 100....

TZ350

29th August 2014, 07:10

Really Rob? Ok how do you interrupt the structure of the current rules?
Start at chapter 1-3 then 24, back to 10 (technical) then back to 24 (sidecars),appendix D as a different class from championship classes (which has slight differences), now to F from 10 & D (or what ever for fuel).

Its an attempt to have sections like RR technical to cover all RR classes without repeating the same thing in individual class chapters, makes it a bit fragmented, but I don't see any separation in that.

Even though something specific is not mentioned in the Miniature RR Chapter 24, F4 F5 still have to abide by the RR technical, fuel, championship etc chapters, same as everyone else that is road racing.

And that is why we are fitting shark fins and rear tail lights in bad weather, just like the others are. There is nothing special about F4 F5 bikes, they are just another RR class, albeit the best one in my opinion.

Grumph

29th August 2014, 07:54

10.17.1 The following classes shall be restricted to petrol having maximum
characteristics not exceeding “Avgas or Unleaded FIM” as defined in Appendix
E. Motocross, Stadium/Supercross, Miniature TT, Trials, Enduro, Cross Country,
ATV, Stockbike, Solo, All Road Race classes except those classes listed in
10.17.2 and 10.17.3. All Mini and Junior classes.

I see words in there like "all road race classes" which F4 and F5 (Miniature Road Racing) are a part of, "being restricted to petrol as defined by appendix E".

The rule book is a bit fragmented and confusing with its different sections, but it looks to me that F4 & F5 are clearly covered by the term "all road race classes" and are restricted to petrol as defined in appendix E. Its only the specific RR classes that are named that are able to use a fuel other than petrol and that fuel is defined in E too.

Alex.

Exackery...appendix E has not been changed so while in theory you are allowed to use an alcohol "additive" - note no maximum level specified - if you were protested on it, appendix E definition of the suitable fuel would still take precedence. And it's not the only stuff up in E either - last time I looked most Methanol sold in NZ contains a colouring agent so does not meet the definition in the book...
Just another stuff up.
And NO miniature road racing has not been separated from the mainstream - you still run under MNZ rules.

Grumph

29th August 2014, 07:56

By the way Rob - you only have to fit shark fins if you're running in an NZ championship. Another stuff up as the approved rule change was not actioned....

TZ350

29th August 2014, 09:07

It all makes my head hurt .... :facepalm:

kel

29th August 2014, 11:03

It all makes my head hurt .... :facepalm:

I dont see why, you have clearly "read" the rules while others are trying to "interpret" the rules (or should that be interupt the rules:lol:).
10.17.1 states "All Road Race classes except those classes listed in 10.17.2 and 10.17.3. All Mini and Junior classes." we're not listed in 10.17.2 or 10.17.3
No where in Appendix E does it state you can add alcohol, it states that unleaded fuel can have a maximum of 10% ethanol. BIG difference.

Wait for it, someone has to pop up with a "but its not in the spirit of bucket racing" :rolleyes:

kel

29th August 2014, 11:20

Really Rob? Ok how do you interrupt the structure of the current rules?
Start at chapter 1-3 then 24, back to 10 (technical) then back to 24 (sidecars),appendix D as a different class from championship classes (which has slight differences), now to F from 10 & D (or what ever for fuel). The mere fact that 24 exists warrants reference in 10 & D in how F will be applied. Otherwise it is an assumption. Having submitted new rules in the past, 24 was actually one of the best structured set for any classes in moms, now it has lost some of its context..

Anyway E10 will work great in GPR150 or 100....

24, YES. It had silly errors, two more have now been removed
10, YES
F, 650 pro twins, NO (not even Rich has got to 650cc).
Throw in a D, E and 1-9 and you're ready to go bucket racing. Let go of your Mom, Its all pretty straight forward.

richban

29th August 2014, 16:14

(not even Rich has got to 650cc).

Who needs 650cc when you have a 300 2 stroke. Maybe I should bring it to Tokaroa and see if it is faster than a bucket. I think no.

F5 Dave

29th August 2014, 17:17

I think ORBIT!

Grumph

29th August 2014, 20:34

I dont see why, you have clearly "read" the rules while others are trying to "interpret" the rules (or should that be interupt the rules:lol:).
10.17.1 states "All Road Race classes except those classes listed in 10.17.2 and 10.17.3. All Mini and Junior classes." we're not listed in 10.17.2 or 10.17.3
No where in Appendix E does it state you can add alcohol, it states that unleaded fuel can have a maximum of 10% ethanol. BIG difference.

Wait for it, someone has to pop up with a "but its not in the spirit of bucket racing" :rolleyes:

It's still not correct though...Yes, Miniature road racing comes under 10,17.1 - but as it's written that means we can use Avgas or FIM unleaded - ONLY. NOT unleaded petrol containing ethanol...Being put under 10.17.2 would not suit most either as that would limit fuel choices to unleaded fuel only...which in the SI, usually does not contain ethanol....

What is wanted is a sensibly worded clause 10.17.2(b) - miniature road racing machinery can use fuel containing up to 10% Ethanol - or Methanol.

kel

29th August 2014, 23:09

It's still not correct though...

My statement is correct (Although I did use the word fuel instead of petrol).

F5 Dave

30th August 2014, 01:35

how about alcohol based drinks?:drinkup:

mr bucketracer

30th August 2014, 04:04

as fishie would say just keep it simple:stoogie:

TZ350

30th August 2014, 06:42

10.17.1 The following classes shall be restricted to petrol having maximum characteristics not exceeding “Avgas or Unleaded FIM” as defined in Appendix E. Motocross, Stadium/Supercross, Miniature TT, Trials, Enduro, Cross Country, ATV, Stockbike, Solo, All Road Race classes except those classes listed in 10.17.2 and 10.17.3. All Mini and Junior classes.

10.17.2 The following classes shall be restricted to petrol having maximum characteristics not exceeding “unleaded Super” as defined in Appendix E. No additive maybe added to the fuel.
1. Supersport Appendix G
2. Superbike Appendix C
3. 650 Pro Twin Appendix F
4. 600 Superstock Appendix A
5. 1000 Superstock Appendix A
6. 250 Production Appendix I
7. Streetstock Chapter 22
8. Young Junior Road Race Chapter 15

10.17.3 The following classes shall have the choice of either petrol having maximum characteristics not exceeding “Avgas, Unleaded FIM” or methanol, both as defined in Appendix E. Sidecars as defined in chapter 27. National Speed Records, Hill Climb – Road and Grass, Beach, Classic Road Racing as defined in Chapter 23, Post Classic (Period 72) Road Racing as defined in Rule 25.3, Post Classic (Period 82) Road Racing as defined in Rule 25.4 (4 stroke engines only),Grass Track and Speedway Sidecars and those classes of Oval Racing defined in Chapter 19 and 20 except 20.27, 20.31 and 20.32. Any machines using methanol must display “Dangerous Goods” or other appropriate stickers that clearly indicate its use, on the machine in a prominent place e.g. number boards.

10.17.4 NOTE: Nitro methane and similar agents are prohibited in all classes of racing.

10.17.5 Fuel Specifications see Appendix E.

300371

Appendix E

TZ350

30th August 2014, 06:46

10.17.1 The following classes shall be restricted to petrol having maximum characteristics not exceeding “Avgas or Unleaded FIM” as defined in Appendix E.

As far as I can see, this covers F4 & F5 and appendix E, unleaded allows for 10% Ethanol. In other words Buckets can now legally use Av gas or any of the common commercial fuels sold to the general public for use in motor cars and these can be conveniently found at your local service station.

Yes you can now legally fill the bike up on your way to the track with you'er local service stations best, most already do.

It looks to me like any advantage to be had from deleting 24.2.1 is more about common sense convenience and cost.

A performance advantage, I doubt it, but if there is a performance advantage to be found at the local pump, then its an advantage available to everyone.

For what its worth, Team ESE still intends using Av Gas.