Has anyone used Elka rear shocks?

[mr bucketracer]

want to treat myself a rear shock for the first time in my life.. are they any good

[Shaun Harris]

want to treat myself a rear shock for the first time in my life.. are they any good







Have you compared prices to Ohlins/Biturbo/Penske/k-tech? I know nothing about the Elka shock quality

[Robert Taylor]

want to treat myself a rear shock for the first time in my life.. are they any good

We have had to revalve a few, quality is okay. What is it for?

[Metastable]

I haven't... got a Penske myself. Having said that, talking to my racing friends (I don't race) they all seem to revert back to Ohlins after trying Elka.... and Elka is a Canadian company. :D Mind you I am talking about Road Racing and this was about 2 -3 years ago... things may have changed.. They have done quite well in the Snowmobile, off-road arena, but I don't know how Elka compares to other brands in those areas.

[mr bucketracer]

We have had to revalve a few, quality is okay. What is it for?its for a 125 gp type bike but 10kgs or so heaver , just sore them on ebay for not a bad price

[Robert Taylor]

its for a 125 gp type bike but 10kgs or so heaver , just sore them on ebay for not a bad price

What price? The issue though is that such a shock would be an orphan in the local market and to not put too fine a point on it whilst Elka has been very successful where their comfort zone is ( ATV ) they havent exactly set the world on fire in road and road race.

Im not saying they are a bad shock in terms of build quality etc, its just that it wont neccessarily be ''bolt and go, a land of milk and honey''. Its likely that work will be required

[mr bucketracer]

What price? The issue though is that such a shock would be an orphan in the local market and to not put too fine a point on it whilst Elka has been very successful where their comfort zone is ( ATV ) they havent exactly set the world on fire in road and road race.

Im not saying they are a bad shock in terms of build quality etc, its just that it wont neccessarily be ''bolt and go, a land of milk and honey''. Its likely that work will be requiredjust under 1000 at my front door , i,v never had anything that good or new but have always done the times with no real set up . i run things on the softer side which i would guess is a bit more forgiving ( maybe more for smaller type bikes ) i thought for the price if it don't work in my f3 bike it can go in my bucket racer

[vifferman]

Don't doo eeet!
I have an Elka, cost... hmmm... $1250 landed (including over $200 in shipping), if I remember correctly. Much better than the standard Showa, but once I got the front forks refettled (um... twice, in the end), it showed up the rear end. The idea was to save money over getting an Ohlins from Dr Bob, but it turned out to be a false economy, and I ended up having to spend several hundreds more to get the Elka Ohlins-ised. IT's GOOD now.
Just get an Ohlins from KSS, do it right.

[mr bucketracer]

Don't doo eeet!
I have an Elka, cost... hmmm... $1250 landed (including over $200 in shipping), if I remember correctly. Much better than the standard Showa, but once I got the front forks refettled (um... twice, in the end), it showed up the rear end. The idea was to save money over getting an Ohlins from Dr Bob, but it turned out to be a false economy, and I ended up having to spend several hundreds more to get the Elka Ohlins-ised. IT's GOOD now.
Just get an Ohlins from KSS, do it right.bugger what type of bike and how meany years ago?

[Shaun Harris]

just under 1000 at my front door , i,v never had anything that good or new but have always done the times with no real set up . i run things on the softer side which i would guess is a bit more forgiving ( maybe more for smaller type bikes ) i thought for the price if it don't work in my f3 bike it can go in my bucket racer





Talk to the Bitubo dealer in auckland man for a price first man, as a shock brand that has just won the NZ 600 champs as it came from the box, would be a much much easier shock to onsell at a later date rather than an Elka

[mr bucketracer]

Talk to the Bitubo dealer in auckland man for a price first man, as a shock brand that has just won the NZ 600 champs as it came from the box, would be a much much easier shock to onsell at a later date rather than an Elkathanks will do

[Robert Taylor]

Talk to the Bitubo dealer in auckland man for a price first man, as a shock brand that has just won the NZ 600 champs as it came from the box, would be a much much easier shock to onsell at a later date rather than an Elka

And the earth is also flat. Perception devoid of the total reality, it was no more out of the box than Ohlins or K-Tech and had been comprehensively tested and fettled with. Aden is a nice guy and has sincerity and integrity to him. Interesting sidenote is that Wolfpacks forks had been revalved using a K-Tech setting bank that I had and passed over to them, which I just happened to have. They had been lied to, told that a setting bank didnt exist. It exists for all of these brands. ALL ARE GOOD BRANDS even though one of them committed industrial espionage.

A bit of truth and honesty doesnt go amiss

[Robert Taylor]

just under 1000 at my front door , i,v never had anything that good or new but have always done the times with no real set up . i run things on the softer side which i would guess is a bit more forgiving ( maybe more for smaller type bikes ) i thought for the price if it don't work in my f3 bike it can go in my bucket racer

Is that factoring in clearance charges plus gst on the value of the goods, freight and clearance.

[Shaun Harris]

And the earth is also flat. Perception devoid of the total reality, it was no more out of the box than Ohlins or K-Tech and had been comprehensively tested and fettled with. Aden is a nice guy and has sincerity and integrity to him. Interesting sidenote is that Wolfpacks forks had been revalved using a K-Tech setting bank that I had and passed over to them, which I just happened to have. They had been lied to, told that a setting bank didnt exist. It exists for all of these brands. ALL ARE GOOD BRANDS even though one of them committed industrial espionage.

A bit of truth and honesty doesnt go amiss






Sorry my bad, I was told it was as it came and believed the man who told me as I have known him for many years and trusted him. It was NOT aden who said this to me.

[Maido]

Haven't signed in to kb for ages, I tend to keep off it but thought I would say that as far as I know John's bitubo was out of the box stock, as was mine and Toby's. Only changed spring rates. Same with the front.
I have no agenda as u would know Robert with the amount of Ohlins suspension we are doing on mx bikes at the moment.

[Shaun Harris]

Haven't signed in to kb for ages, I tend to keep off it but thought I would say that as far as I know John's bitubo was out of the box stock, as was mine and Toby's. Only changed spring rates. Same with the front.
I have no agenda as u would know Robert with the amount of Ohlins suspension we are doing on mx bikes at the moment.





Cool, that makes 2 people I know well and trust now that have said that about Bitubo shocks. I noticed quite a few Speed way bikes using there gear also at the WGP last weekend in Auckland. That racing was exellent to watch, Thanks to Bill Buckley

[nzspokes]

What about Nitron?

[Shaun Harris]

What about Nitron?







They are also bloody good quality product man, better than I had ever thought, again coming from a man I have known for years and trust

[Robert Taylor]

The reality is that BiTubo, Ohlins and by default K-Tech ( Copy Tech )are all great quality high performing products. And dont forget works level Showa and WP.

As a generalisation Ive always had contempt for the marketing term ''race ready out of the box''. Yes you can race a lot of stuff out of the box but it can always be better.There are a number of makes and models of bikes on the market with full Ohlins suspension standard and they are proclaimed as ready for the track. That is complete nonsense, EVERYTHING has to be optimised to the individual rider.

Compared to K-Tech Bitubo at least have respect within the international suspension industry. Their interpretation of twin tube technology ( first pioneered in this type of function by Spax as I am led to believe )is at least a beating to their own very Italian drum. The guys at K-Tech have for many years blatantly copied the fruits of Ohlins technology and very real and substanial ongoing development costs but they havent offered to share those costs! The DDS35 shock is a blatant copy of much Ohlins technology and also some very clever Showa technology ( never underestimate Showa ) Anyone who strips a TTX36, DDS35 and oem year 14 Showa CBR1000RR rear shock on the same bench will see exactly what I mean. Its very easy to rip off everyone elses very real costs in development.

If we take an overview of the very last round of the champs at Minefield its very interesting.

Superbike, all winners were on Ohlins and the first four championship places were Ohlins riders. Not neccessarily because the product is any better but we just got the very best out of it for especially those 4 riders. Perhaps we have a very solid and bloody minded protestant work ethic.

Supersport 600

Ohlins 3 of the race wins and 50% more race wins than the other two competing brands, taken individually. We made no valving changes all weekend, just spring change, so essentially ''out of the box'' as delivered to the track.

K-Tech All kudos to Adam Chambers ( and team mentor / bill payer Jamie Rajek ) , on a personal level. Adam has solidly worked at it and deserved those wins, But its rather sad that they were misled into thinking that there was no setting bank of alternative shimming specs for their front forks by the official Copy Tech representation and had to seek the setting banks elsewhere. ''Out of the box'' as delivered to the track

Bitubo Toby ( lovely guy ) struggled all weekend with grip levels going away during racing and wasnt ( in his own English eloquence ) his normal chipper self. It dawned on him that no you actually cannot race on every circuit with the suspension out of the box. It may have just required a click here or there, perhaps a spring change or even a valving change ( LIKE ANY BRAND OF SUSPENSION ) Clearly he was struggling and as part of a group that went out to dinner on Saturday night I conversed with Toby that he really needed to start understanding bike set up rather than just relying on his prodigious talent.

When you watch on television WSS600, WSBK etc you will see blokes on the grid and in the pits wearing either Showa, Bitubo, Copy Tech or Ohlins clothing. They are not clothes horses just there to show the product name, there are rather better looking long legged creatures of the opposite sex rather more agreeable to look at, for such purpose. These guys are technicians with a service facility in the pits stocked with tools, shims, setting parts and those MYSTERIOUS SETTING BANKS that some people deny the existence of.

[DidJit]

I love it when you talk suspension, Robert.
No, really. :yes: Thanks, once again, for the insights. :niceone:

[steveyb]

It's almost as good as a dirty story.....

[AllanB]

I notice that K-Tech get a lot of good press in the English bike mags (promoting local product).


I do respect your passion for what you do Robert - if similar was applied to most businesses in NZ the country would be souring high.

[Shaun Harris]

I love it when you talk suspension, Robert.
No, really. :yes: Thanks, once again, for the insights. :niceone:








even if it is a bit naughty with a bit of slander. Some people do do some strange things suspension parts

[Mental Trousers]

Nevermind slander, some stuff out there is a blatant rip off. They've even copied the mistakes in them!!

[Shaun Harris]

Nevermind slander, some stuff out there is a blatant rip off. They've even copied the mistakes in them!!








haha it was only a joke dude

[Robert Taylor]

No slander, just something that is very well known throughout the international suspension industry. And yes the same mistakes have indeed been copied, much to everyones amusement of those in the know. A few years back it was reasoned that piracy ( of technology / outright copying ) made up 9-10% of the worlds economy. That is a deplorable statistic.

There are though credible suspension companies that largely beat to their own drum. Ohlins, WP, Showa, Nitron, KYB, BiTubo, Penske, JRI as examples of product of high quality, high performance and stand alone integrity

[Shaun Harris]

No slander, just something that is very well known throughout the international suspension industry. And yes the same mistakes have indeed been copied, much to everyones amusement of those in the know. A few years back it was reasoned that piracy ( of technology / outright copying ) made up 9-10% of the worlds economy. That is a deplorable statistic.

There are though credible suspension companies that largely beat to their own drum. Ohlins, WP, Showa, Nitron, KYB, BiTubo, Penske, JRI as examples of product of high quality, high performance and stand alone integrity






Was only pushing your Buttons Doctor:yes: I know you know what you know if you know what I mean.

[Shaun Harris]

Enjoyed our conversation at your work shop mate.

[Shaun Harris]

As I do not know the full details on this myself as yet I decided to delete untill I know more factually.

[RobGassit]

Someone said that K Tech stuff was better than all the rest and you can use it still in the box if you want. Just cut holes in the box for the bolts to pass thru. Much betterer!

[Robert Taylor]

Someone said that K Tech stuff was better than all the rest and you can use it still in the box if you want. Just cut holes in the box for the bolts to pass thru. Much betterer!

Of course! They can also talk their way out of paper bags and do the grocery shopping.

Note that Keenan Sofoglu is back on Ohlins after a year with the dark side. He is running NIX30 cartridges in the front end, a product that some people like to malign. Check out Jordan Motorsport, one of the biggest teams in the US. They have ditched what they ran last season. The grass is not always green on the opposite side of the fence, even though much product has been effectively given away.

[suzuki21]

In reply to the original question - go with what you can afford, if you have a grand spend a grand.
In reply to the rest of the dribble on here - of course every brand has copied the Gabriel shock invented in 1907, and front forks invented in the 50's. Its not rocket science, they are tubes with some goddamned holes, washers, gas, and a spring. It also doesn't matter who has won what in a premier class because I haven't recently met anyone in New Zealand with a Motogp bike to put their fancy shock on.

[Shaun Harris]

In reply to the original question - go with what you can afford, if you have a grand spend a grand.
In reply to the rest of the dribble on here - of course every brand has copied the Gabriel shock invented in 1907, and front forks invented in the 50's. Its not rocket science, they are tubes with some goddamned holes, washers, gas, and a spring. It also doesn't matter who has won what in a premier class because I haven't recently met anyone in New Zealand with a Motogp bike to put their fancy shock on.







Dam that is a realistic post from you and the truth. Value ie purchase price is extremmely important to us KIWI;s after import tax and dealer margins and then retailers margins, and then last it seems though is lasting quality of the different brands, which in Roberts favour he gives credit where credit is due to other brands Quality.

[Robert Taylor]

In reply to the original question - go with what you can afford, if you have a grand spend a grand.
In reply to the rest of the dribble on here - of course every brand has copied the Gabriel shock invented in 1907, and front forks invented in the 50's. Its not rocket science, they are tubes with some goddamned holes, washers, gas, and a spring. It also doesn't matter who has won what in a premier class because I haven't recently met anyone in New Zealand with a Motogp bike to put their fancy shock on.

Or to sum up the personal mindset in your post the less you know the simpler it all appears to be. Which of course it isnt. Leading companies like Ohlins ( and Showa) who have something like 60 or more engineers , many university educated , are engaged in intensive and ongoing R&D and such companies have set a direction that a number of others have followed, rightly or wrongly. Where there are myths they need to be dispelled and be careful how you use the disparaging word ''dribble''. Im sure your authoritative post and ruthless rejection that shock absorber technology is but simple would go down well in many of these factories and as you clearly know so much about them they will on receipt of your thoughts ( arguably laced with some dribble ) be offering you employment and large wads of money

Certainly yes go with what you can afford but at the same time ensure you are purchasing something that is going to work and will not send you to the chiropractor in short order. And if it doesnt work is there ready availability of setting parts specific to that suspension and local expertise available familiar with the very product?

[nodrog]

I like kittens.

[Shaun Harris]

I like kittens.





Dam troll and good on ya, now get ya order in for some Nitron shocks for the Chair, HEY, I think the girls owe me a free ride at Taupo actually for a job done in Ch Ch for them a few years back after they got no help

[nodrog]

Dam troll and good on ya, now get ya order in for some Nitron shocks for the Chair, HEY, I think the girls owe me a free ride at Taupo actually for a job done in Ch Ch for them a few years back after they got no help

I would love to have a set Shaun, if you are sponsoring them for me. But for now the standard shortened ones are more than sufficient.

P.S. Pay your $10 you tight cunt, you have had enough free shit.

[Shaun Harris]

I would love to have a set Shaun, if you are sponsoring them for me. But for now the standard shortened ones are more than sufficient.

P.S. Pay your $10 you tight cunt, you have had enough free shit.






Hahga OK BOSS. I will sponsor you a set of Nitron Shocks at my cost ( So you pay my landed cost) if ya decide to get some man. You know how rated they are over seas in the racing scene, they also make a heap of them for older bikes that other brands do not concentrate on and again are bloody great quality and retail price apples for apples

[Robert Taylor]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LS37SNYjg8w

I'm an admirer of kittens too, the smaller the better....

[Bert]

Hahga OK BOSS. I will sponsor you a set of Nitron Shocks at my cost ( So you pay my landed cost) if ya decide to get some man. You know how rated they are over seas in the racing scene, they also make a heap of them for older bikes that other brands do not concentrate on and again are bloody great quality and retail price apples for apples

Ok the original post was about a ELKA shock for a custom build frame holding a light weight twin for superlight class.
In fact the same man has built a number of these frames in resent years, even has a website wrapped around his crazy antics.
So why don't you offer the same deal to him...:brick:

[Shaun Harris]

Ok the original post was about a ELKA shock for a custom build frame holding a light weight twin for superlight class.
In fact the same man has built a number of these frames in resent years, even has a website wrapped around his crazy antics.
So why don't you offer the same deal to him...:brick:








never seen his bike/s never seen his web site Show me a link to it





EDIT Just got sent a link to his work, bloody brilliant

[nodrog]

Ok the original post was about a ELKA shock for a custom build frame holding a light weight twin for superlight class.
In fact the same man has built a number of these frames in resent years, even has a website wrapped around his crazy antics.
So why don't you offer the same deal to him...:brick:

Obviously I am far better.

[Shaun Harris]

Obviously I am far better.











Nah, just that chairs are my routes into racing

[Robert Taylor]

Ok the original post was about a ELKA shock for a custom build frame holding a light weight twin for superlight class.
In fact the same man has built a number of these frames in resent years, even has a website wrapped around his crazy antics.
So why don't you offer the same deal to him...:brick:

Frankly ( and with all due respect to Shaun ) I thinks its a silly deal. By totally eliminating a fair and reasonable profit it does not put bread on his table.

[nodrog]

Frankly ( and with all due respect to Shaun ) I thinks its a silly deal. By totally eliminating a fair and reasonable profit it does not put bread on his table.

Excuse me Robert, can you please not ruin my sponsorship deal. Thankyou.

[Shaun Harris]

Frankly ( and with all due respect to Shaun ) I thinks its a silly deal. By totally eliminating a fair and reasonable profit it does not put bread on his table.







Agreed and that is why I am not a well off man. But marketing/promotion has to start some where and if I can help make the sidecar scene better, I will.

[Robert Taylor]

Excuse me Robert, can you please not ruin my sponsorship deal. Thankyou.

It was no attempt at sabotaging any personal deal, it was a comment about the very real impact of sponsorship in general. Ive been around a long time and have seen how sponsorship works, and doesnt work. Especially for the sponsors!

[nodrog]

It was no attempt at sabotaging any personal deal, it was a comment about the very real impact of sponsorship in general. Ive been around a long time and have seen how sponsorship works, and doesnt work. Especially for the sponsors!

So Shaun supplies me some shocks at no financial outlay to himself, and I advertise the IHC all over my sidecar for no financial outlay to Shaun, and thats not a good deal?

Surely you are taking the piss?

[Shaun Harris]

So Shaun supplies me some shocks at no financial outlay to himself, and I advertise the IHC all over my sidecar for no financial outlay to Shaun, and thats not a good deal?

Surely you are taking the piss?







one minute my name is cock sucker and then it is Shaun, are you sure you are ok dude

[nodrog]

one minute my name is cock sucker and then it is Shaun, are you sure you are ok dude

Sorry, ive hit my head.

[Shaun Harris]

Sorry, ive hit my head.






giv me ya address man, I will send you some meds then

[nodrog]

giv me ya address man, I will send you some meds then

Fuck that, I want ones that work.

[Robert Taylor]

So Shaun supplies me some shocks at no financial outlay to himself, and I advertise the IHC all over my sidecar for no financial outlay to Shaun, and thats not a good deal?

Surely you are taking the piss?

Most certainly no. This thread started off as a fair enough question about a certain brand of suspension and I believe it has been answered quite completely in terms of all the whys and wherefores inclusive of a number of keyboard warriors expert in everything! But by and large I think it has been answered fairly. Then it morphed into little kittens and I took the piss there with an hilarious Harry Enfield video. Truly, I like woman and what they are capable of, the most shining example ( in my world ) being Margaret Thatcher.
When I have finished the day I will elaborate about the issues of sponsorship, from my own long experience, in particular when you are dealing with product that requires backup. Some things that I will say will be ''uncomfortable'' but its a cold hard reality

[scrivy]

Some things that I will say will be ''uncomfortable'' but its a cold hard reality

Gordie used to be sponsored by Durex years ago in his GP days. They unfortuanately gave him 'extra small' packets one weekend.... so he knows all about the 'uncomfortable' side of sponsorship....

:eek5:

[scott411]

When I have finished the day I will elaborate about the issues of sponsorship, from my own long experience, in particular when you are dealing with product that requires backup. Some things that I will say will be ''uncomfortable'' but its a cold hard reality

what, you expect something back for giving someone your time, and capital to help them enjoy themselves racing, how dare you !

[Shaun Harris]

I love how I have the abbility to bring the real world into life some times

[mr bucketracer]

its for this
gpr frame 550.jpg

[mr bucketracer]

296223or my bucket

[mr bucketracer]

or maybe i have just started a shit storm on here because i'm good at it (-; or maybe i'm burn't out and had enough:angry:

[Shaun Harris]

or maybe i have just started a shit storm on here because i'm good at it (-; or maybe i'm burn't out and had enough:angry:









Very cool looking chassis's man. No shit storm caused as far as I can see mate. Do you have a paticula shock unit in mind to suit the linkage ratio;s you are running on your babies, as you well know that is very important to gain the best for the money you will spend and I can see from your workmanship that you are 100% aware of that. Yes things will fit, but how well they will work is another question.

[Robert Taylor]

Very cool looking chassis's man. No shit storm caused as far as I can see mate. Do you have a paticual shock unit in mind to suit the linkage ratio;s you are running on your babies, as you well know that is very important to gain the best for the money you will spend and I can see from your workmanship that you are 100% aware of that. Yes things will fit, but how well they will work is another question.

Shaun is correct, fitting is the relatively easy part. Getting the internal valving of the shock right to match the ''motion ratio'' that the linkage system imparts to it is the tricky part that inevitably takes time and money. Also the spring rate to match both the bike and rider.

No energy to dredge back but are you saying that Elka make a shock specifically to match this chassis and linkage etc? If so and they are as good as their word then go for it BUT very much get a written guarantee. If not then its just another shock that will need valving and springing. That would require the bike to confirm that everything will work as intended, it cannot be done from a distance because it would be little better than guesswork

[mr bucketracer]

Very cool looking chassis's man. No shit storm caused as far as I can see mate. Do you have a paticual shock unit in mind to suit the linkage ratio;s you are running on your babies, as you well know that is very important to gain the best for the money you will spend and I can see from your workmanship that you are 100% aware of that. Yes things will fit, but how well they will work is another question.most the bikes i have built are all bassed of honda rs 125s(linkage ratio's) @ around 80 -90 kg mark 60-100mm longer , emailed elka and they are happy to set up for the extra weight . don't know if there the go but you never know? not to bad price but more likey 200 more for gst tax to get here . i don't have that much money ' just want to get as much racing in untill my body gives up as i know you know the felling .. cheers

[mr bucketracer]

Shaun is correct, fitting is the relatively easy part. Getting the internal valving of the shock right to match the ''motion ratio'' that the linkage system imparts to it is the tricky part that inevitably takes time and money. Also the spring rate to match both the bike and rider.

No energy to dredge back but are you saying that Elka make a shock specifically to match this chassis and linkage etc? If so and they are as good as their word then go for it BUT very much get a written guarantee. If not then its just another shock that will need valving and springing. That would require the bike to confirm that everything will work as intended, it cannot be done from a distance because it would be little better than guessworki know there will be some guesswork in it , i do seem good at riding around alot promblems ( don't know if that the right words ) i know what your saying if something go's wrong who will repair it etc . A lot of thought going into it

[Robert Taylor]

These are some generalised comments from my own long experience:

1) Sponsoring with product that requires trackside optimisation and alternate setting parts ( mainly springs )is a whole load different than say supplying some fine crystal to a charity auction. One is difficult , costly and time consuming, the other is easy

2) Having an inventory of alternate springs is a cost to someone, usually the distributor of the product. Here in NZ we really have done this wrong, we should have many years ago insisted that teams and riders purchased their own spring options. This is neccessary for varying track conditions and alternate tracks, if you are on top of your game. But this also wouldnt have worked because racers being racers they wouldnt purchase all the options they would need and then would grizzle to all and sundry that the suspension wasnt working properly.... for want of springs. Everyone elses fault but their own. Race teams in Europe carry all of their own spring options and spring changers.

3) If we take just the one example of sidecars the said shocks that Shaun is referring to have been very successful on sidecars. But given also that the construction of sidecars can be so individual and variable there is no guarantee that what works on certain chassis in the Northern hemisphere will work straight off here. That is where spring rate options and internal setting parts are locally required. Who then pays for the fuel, labour, accomodation, meals etc ? Just because the cost of such suspension is amount ''X'' that doesnt mean that there is massive margin in the product ( which there most certainly isnt ) to allow for sometimes not insubstanial final optimisation costs.
Given also that there are so few sidecars in NZ what guarantee is there that if you have one set of suspension working very well that you are going to sell a whole load to everyone else? And would the remaining ''prospects ''also insist that these units are also passed on at the same price (no margin), thereby being a continuing and ongoing loss making venture by the reseller?

4) If we take a step back, most of us have day jobs, the companies we either own or work for have to make fair and reasonable margin on product and services to pay the wage bill, all the overheads and to reasonably prosper. Indeed to survive. Why is it that many racers consider that product should either be passed on at very small or no margin or given to them? If that happens it certainly doesnt engender any loyalty if an even fatter Greek comes along bearing even more gifts..............

5) Companies such as Ohlins DO NOT SPONSOR ANYONE, that is a sign of a successful company, as opposed to a few giving product away.

6) You also have to wonder aloud how effective sponsor exposure is in NZ road racing? Arguably though there are people that do it very well in continually plugging way their sponsors in various forms of media. But one shining example is Sloan Frost, also RWR Motorsport.

7) An industry friend of mine is legitimately grizzling at the moment. He has put a LOT of unpaid extra time into helping a successful race team in a related sporting code, but the work he did invoice them for they havent paid him for yet. Its well overdue, so he is feeling rather used and pissed off. Sadly there are some other race teams also stringing him out. That really sucks and my advice to prospective sponsors, look at it long and hard before committing, get legal guarantees and build in penalty fees for beach of contract. Dont get caught up in the emotion and excitement, treat it totally as a business transaction.

[Robert Taylor]

i know there will be some guesswork in it , i do seem good at riding around alot promblems ( don't know if that the right words ) i know what your saying if something go's wrong who will repair it etc . A lot of thought going into it

Ok, I just hope the comments have helped!

[Robert Taylor]

what, you expect something back for giving someone your time, and capital to help them enjoy themselves racing, how dare you !

Thanks Scott, cynical but brutally true!

[Shaun Harris]

[QUOTE=Robert Taylor;1130708291]These are some generalised comments from my own long experience:

1) Sponsoring with product that requires trackside optimisation and alternate setting parts ( mainly springs )is a whole load different than say supplying some fine crystal to a charity auction. One is difficult , costly and time consuming, the other is easy

2) Having an inventory of alternate springs is a cost to someone, usually the distributor of the product. Here in NZ we really have done this wrong, we should have many years ago insisted that teams and riders purchased their own spring options. This is neccessary for varying track conditions and alternate tracks, if you are on top of your game. But this also wouldnt have worked because racers being racers they wouldnt purchase all the options they would need and then would grizzle to all and sundry that the suspension wasnt working properly.... for want of springs. Everyone elses fault but their own. Race teams in Europe carry all of their own spring options and spring changers.




Funny really as it was my offer that bought this post on Robert, and your point No2 above, I will prob be disliked more but O well, " I said exactually that to you years didn;t I haha. I guess there is some kind of a business man in me some where

[nodrog]

............. ouch me eyes hurt............

I was hoping to reply here before you got all dragons Den and created a massive wall of text that would render most of us sick with RSI, obviously I am late.

If you read below and replace the word shocks with hat (ie, something that doesn't require back up or servicing).


So Shaun supplies me some shocks at no financial outlay to himself, and I advertise the IHC all over my sidecar for no financial outlay to Shaun, and thats not a good deal?

Surely you are taking the piss?

Does it seem like anybody is disadvantaged by this agreement? Shaun supplies me with a product, which I pay all costs for (so it costs him nothing), and he gets advertising space on my sidecar. (imagine if he had advertising on the underside of Drew Mairs chair!)

Your argument about backup parts etc is a moot point in this case as I think we all know that Shaun isn't going to have any springs or valves in his lunchbox. And he is far too busy on kiwi biker to be running around the country setting up sidecars.

The offer was to supply some goods, nothing else.

this might help - https://scontent-a-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1.0-9/q71/s720x720/10171855_10152162846221840_4182608327115500278_n.j pg

[Shaun Harris]

[QUOTE=nodrog; Shaun isn't going to have any springs or valves in his lunchbox. And he is far too busy on kiwi biker to be running around the country setting up sidecars.

and about 10 other sites in between study and you do not get as skinny as me having a lunch box

[nzspokes]

These are some generalised comments from my own long experience:

1) Sponsoring with product that requires trackside optimisation and alternate setting parts ( mainly springs )is a whole load different than say supplying some fine crystal to a charity auction. One is difficult , costly and time consuming, the other is easy

2) Having an inventory of alternate springs is a cost to someone, usually the distributor of the product. Here in NZ we really have done this wrong, we should have many years ago insisted that teams and riders purchased their own spring options. This is neccessary for varying track conditions and alternate tracks, if you are on top of your game. But this also wouldnt have worked because racers being racers they wouldnt purchase all the options they would need and then would grizzle to all and sundry that the suspension wasnt working properly.... for want of springs. Everyone elses fault but their own. Race teams in Europe carry all of their own spring options and spring changers.

3) If we take just the one example of sidecars the said shocks that Shaun is referring to have been very successful on sidecars. But given also that the construction of sidecars can be so individual and variable there is no guarantee that what works on certain chassis in the Northern hemisphere will work straight off here. That is where spring rate options and internal setting parts are locally required. Who then pays for the fuel, labour, accomodation, meals etc ? Just because the cost of such suspension is amount ''X'' that doesnt mean that there is massive margin in the product ( which there most certainly isnt ) to allow for sometimes not insubstanial final optimisation costs.
Given also that there are so few sidecars in NZ what guarantee is there that if you have one set of suspension working very well that you are going to sell a whole load to everyone else? And would the remaining ''prospects ''also insist that these units are also passed on at the same price (no margin), thereby being a continuing and ongoing loss making venture by the reseller?

4) If we take a step back, most of us have day jobs, the companies we either own or work for have to make fair and reasonable margin on product and services to pay the wage bill, all the overheads and to reasonably prosper. Indeed to survive. Why is it that many racers consider that product should either be passed on at very small or no margin or given to them? If that happens it certainly doesnt engender any loyalty if an even fatter Greek comes along bearing even more gifts..............

5) Companies such as Ohlins DO NOT SPONSOR ANYONE, that is a sign of a successful company, as opposed to a few giving product away.

6) You also have to wonder aloud how effective sponsor exposure is in NZ road racing? Arguably though there are people that do it very well in continually plugging way their sponsors in various forms of media. But one shining example is Sloan Frost, also RWR Motorsport.

7) An industry friend of mine is legitimately grizzling at the moment. He has put a LOT of unpaid extra time into helping a successful race team in a related sporting code, but the work he did invoice them for they havent paid him for yet. Its well overdue, so he is feeling rather used and pissed off. Sadly there are some other race teams also stringing him out. That really sucks and my advice to prospective sponsors, look at it long and hard before committing, get legal guarantees and build in penalty fees for beach of contract. Dont get caught up in the emotion and excitement, treat it totally as a business transaction.

This I agree with. I have been involved with sporting sponsorship for many years. It has to be seen as a gift as there is little to no benefit in return even though the competitor thinks them having a sticker on is worth lots of free gear. I daily get requests as "Jonny" is going to be next big thing. He isnt.

[Shaun Harris]

This I agree with. I have been involved with sporting sponsorship for many years. It has to be seen as a gift as there is little to no benefit in return even though the competitor thinks them having a sticker on is worth lots of free gear. I daily get requests as "Jonny" is going to be next big thing. He isnt.









Hello it's Jonny calling. Sponsorship has no real market value in NZ apart from good will PR

[nzspokes]

Hello it's Jonny calling. Sponsorship has no real market value in NZ apart from good will PR

Jonny will often not return gear as per the contract he signed and sell it for his benefit. Its a PR thing only. Dont expect it to be returned in turn over.

[Shaun Harris]

Jonny will often not return gear as per the contract he signed and sell it for his benefit. Its a PR thing only. Dont expect it to be returned in turn over.




Yep I have seen that done here plenty of times. Prize money kept ( When it exsisted) when it was in contracts to hand over to the bike owner


O hell, this has all gotten to negative now for me now, best I go find my meds and a crate of beer

[Robert Taylor]

I was hoping to reply here before you got all dragons Den and created a massive wall of text that would render most of us sick with RSI, obviously I am late.

If you read below and replace the word shocks with hat (ie, something that doesn't require back up or servicing).



Does it seem like anybody is disadvantaged by this agreement? Shaun supplies me with a product, which I pay all costs for (so it costs him nothing), and he gets advertising space on my sidecar. (imagine if he had advertising on the underside of Drew Mairs chair!)

Your argument about backup parts etc is a moot point in this case as I think we all know that Shaun isn't going to have any springs or valves in his lunchbox. And he is far too busy on kiwi biker to be running around the country setting up sidecars.



The offer was to supply some goods, nothing else.

this might help - https://scontent-a-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1.0-9/q71/s720x720/10171855_10152162846221840_4182608327115500278_n.j pg

So if you were dissatisfied with the delivered settings ( spring rates and valving ) you would then be more than happy to purchase further springs and to pay the going rate to have it revalved? Im struggling to believe you would be as chipper then, even though you would have paid dealer cost for the product. The importance of the availability of after sales availability of setting part options and service ( and costs of thereof ) should never be underestimated plus all of the running around that is associated with it all.


As I eluded to previously its hardly like selling fine china that will just be stored and looked at occassionally. It would be useful if you knew exactly what is involved. And in my own opinion there is no need of anyone to onsell product at no margin. We dont do it for our major customer base ( everyday road riders who dont give a goats arse about road racing, and some car and MX stuff ) Why should it be any different for road racing?

[F5 Dave]

I found a Dyno-Tech sticker the other day and decided I'd put it on my new build. While never actually sponsoring me, Chris was always good to me, so despite the fact the business wound up and he left the country say 15 odd years ago I feel the responsibility to do my bit to repay those free dyno runs.

[Shaun Harris]

I found a Dyno-Tech sticker the other day and decided I'd put it on my new build. While never actually sponsoring me, Chris was always good to me, so despite the fact the business wound up and he left the country say 15 odd years ago I feel the responsibility to do my bit to repay those free dyno runs.




Good on ya for remembering such people. As has been said on here recently- so many riders think they Deserve and a sticker will be enough for max support bah humbug it will.

If any one was to really pay attention on the marketing that Sloan Frost does, a lot could be learned on how to show a ROI for potentuall or current sponsors ( Donations basically) Good will PR is the only real marketable ROI for equipment suppliers here in little ol NZ, and more often than not new sponsors are found way outside the bike industry and often come along due to some one knowing some one that knows some one

[Robert Taylor]

There is a further factor here that I hadn't discussed yet with any resellers. The owner / manufacturer of the said shocks is steadfastly against discounting, worldwide. The price is the price and its very very good anyway. Cut from very good cloth and very well educated and spoken ( private school and university educated, ex RAF navigator and commissioned, cant do better than that! ) he is of a refreshingly old school mentality where old world service is everything. He says that may sometimes cost him but he cannot alter the strong and ethical values he was bought up by, nor wants to. Moreover he is abundantly aware of the open slather ''scorched earth'' marketing that has occurred worldwide with so many products that has laid waste to so many small businesses that were in all respects doing an excellent job for their local communities / customers but were unable to have the same buying power as the big box resellers with low prices but largely appalling after sales service.
This reinforces the need for all resellers to have fair and sustainable margins
In the world of MX that attitude of I want everything at your cost or ''you give it to me because Im important'' is even worse than road racing. We sell quite a bit of stuff into MX but we steadfastly refuse to sponsor product or sell at cost. That means that we don't have so many top MX riders on the product because they seem to expect as of right that they should be sponsored the product. Even if you sell at cost you have to then sell a LOT of product at full retail to then get your accounts looking reasonable at the end of the financial year. And given that NZ is a tiny market with seemingly half of the population receiving taxpayer funded Government handouts / top ups the chances of recouping all of the profit you have otherwise given away is in fact zilch. We just dont have the population.
This is not me talking as a ruthless capitalist ( which I definitely am not ), our margins are respectable but by no means handsome and to provide an excellent level of service every business needs fair and reasonable margin.

[Robert Taylor]

I found a Dyno-Tech sticker the other day and decided I'd put it on my new build. While never actually sponsoring me, Chris was always good to me, so despite the fact the business wound up and he left the country say 15 odd years ago I feel the responsibility to do my bit to repay those free dyno runs.

Yes, Chris is a great technician but he wound the business up and sought pastures anew because he wasn't making any money. These stories are so common. That was 15 odd years ago before the internet laid waste to so many further small businesses otherwise doing a good job. But unable to compete with big box resellers who enjoy often hugely lower buying prices and operate often on 3-5% margin. But putting nothing back into our local economy by spending their profits locally where it will do most good. And also not employing locally where it will do most good. Exacerbated further by Governments inability / unwillingness to fairly and consistently tax everything that comes across the border

[sidecar bob]

So if you were dissatisfied with the delivered settings ( spring rates and valving ) you would then be more than happy to purchase further springs and to pay the going rate to have it revalved?

Isint that how it works anyway? I purchased new springs & im sure I paid at least the going rate to have my Ohlins sorted for the big fella.
Im not complaining, but thats just how it was.

[F5 Dave]

Yes, Chris is a great technician but he wound the business up and sought pastures anew because he wasn't making any money. These stories are so common. That was 15 odd years ago before the internet laid waste to so many further small businesses otherwise doing a good job. But unable to compete with big box resellers who enjoy often hugely lower buying prices and operate often on 3-5% margin. But putting nothing back into our local economy by spending their profits locally where it will do most good. And also not employing locally where it will do most good. Exacerbated further by Governments inability / unwillingness to fairly and consistently tax everything that comes across the border
Well now you mention it, it all came to a head while he was at the IOM supporting Anstey.

[Robert Taylor]

Isint that how it works anyway? I purchased new springs & im sure I paid at least the going rate to have my Ohlins sorted for the big fella.
Im not complaining, but thats just how it was.

Sadly not everyone sees it that way!

[Shaun Harris]

Well now you mention it, it all came to a head while he was at the IOM supporting Anstey.










I paid for Chris to be my crew chief one year at the TT when I was to race an RS250 there for Padgetts Racing. He ended up working full time for them after that and really moved on to different posistions. Top mam!

[F5 Dave]

Yeah pretty much the last time I saw him was at Philip Island, he was looking after Jay Vincent doing 250 GP with Padgetts & looking to move on, we went to dinner with an Italian mechanic who was even drunker than we were, which was quite a trick, but he (the mechanic) bargained the price down which was good as I ended up paying for some reason that eludes me. But that was end of last century, not heard of him this century.

[nodrog]

So if you were dissatisfied with the delivered settings ( spring rates and valving ) you would then be more than happy to purchase further springs and to pay the going rate to have it revalved? ...........

Yes, because I am a Grown up and I realise that's how the world works.

Are you Judith Collins PR writer? You have still failed to answer a simple Question.

Shaun supplies me with a product, which I pay all costs for (so it costs him nothing), and he gets advertising space on my sidecar. Is that a bad deal for Shaun?

Its a simple yes or No question.

[Shaun Harris]

Yeah pretty much the last time I saw him was at Philip Island, he was looking after Jay Vincent doing 250 GP with Padgetts & looking to move on, we went to dinner with an Italian mechanic who was even drunker than we were, which was quite a trick, but he (the mechanic) bargained the price down which was good as I ended up paying for some reason that eludes me. But that was end of last century, not heard of him this century.







Padgetts shafted him wicked pay wise, but Chris also never stood up and fought for what he really was worth, he used to phone me and me him a lot whlstl I was in the uk and was always pushing him to fight for more income, I chocked when he told me what they were paying him with his level of proffesional skills and focus and commitment.

[Shaun Harris]

Yes, because I am a Grown up and I realise that's how the world works.

Are you Judith Collins PR writer? You have still failed to answer a simple Question.

Shaun supplies me with a product, which I pay all costs for (so it costs him nothing), and he gets advertising space on my sidecar. Is that a bad deal for Shaun?

Its a simple yes or No question.










Nothing is square to the DR and bugger being him with his mentallity of always making a round hole perfectly Round everytime. Anal retentative perfectionist would be close to summing him up, if it is ok to use the word Anal and the DR in the same scentence.

[scrivy]

Has anyone used Ellas rear???

You sick bastards.....

I'm telling Kai......!!296274

[husaberg]

AS this thread has gone way way off track anyway...

I looked arround to see if Ron Williams (Maxton)was still doing the modified Konis because One i always wondered what was in them.
and two because i just wondered if it could offer an solution that suited Scotts budget.

What i found was Ron's company is making it seems all their own stuff now.

i seen this in the blurb whaich prety much matchs what Robert had said re springs and gubins...

Suspension doesn't have a huge effect on handling when your bike is leant over. "Think about it," says Ron. "When a bike hits a bump leant over, the forces aren't barely going through the suspension. What you are feeling is more to do with chassis stiffness and tyre construction.

Compression damping control is far more important than rebound for track riding.

Progressive or dual rate springs don't really work, mainly because they don't rebound back in a linear manner. Variable compression damping is much more effective. The benefit that most people who fit them feel is down to the original springs they replaced being too soft in the first place.

They valve some nice shinny looking kit.
http://www.maxtonsuspension.co.uk/files/products.htm

Prices range from £440 for a pair of twin shocks to £710 for the top-spec GP7. Fork conversions cost between £290 and £915 for the top-spec GP25 cartridge.

[sidecar bob]

Sadly not everyone sees it that way!

Right. I mistook the gist of your post for, "if a pair of Ohlins were supplied NZ new by the distributor, they came with the required set up at no additional cost" It really does look that way. My mistake.

[scrivy]

My mistake.

:scratch::innocent::innocent::facepalm::hitcher:

[Robert Taylor]

Yes, because I am a Grown up and I realise that's how the world works.

Are you Judith Collins PR writer? You have still failed to answer a simple Question.

Shaun supplies me with a product, which I pay all costs for (so it costs him nothing), and he gets advertising space on my sidecar. Is that a bad deal for Shaun?

Its a simple yes or No question.

Ive answered plenty and elaborated, you are just not listening.

With the said product I do not wish to see it discounted, whomever resells it. There is already too much of that BS happening. ( Its also a pretty straightforward directive from the manufacturer and in any event the general pricing is already very very good anyway. There is no wish on his part to see ''dutch auctions'' happening worldwide, afflicting so many products and laying rack and ruin to small focused companies without volume buying power) Economics 101, well worth studying.

Were you given the said shocks at dealer cost how many further sets would you guarantee that would be sold within the first season?

[Kickaha]

Yes, because I am a Grown up .
fuck off you are

My mistake.
It is always the swingers fault

[nodrog]

Ive answered plenty and elaborated, you are just not listening.

With the said product I do not wish to see it discounted, whomever resells it. There is already too much of that BS happening. ( Its also a pretty straightforward directive from the manufacturer and in any event the general pricing is already very very good anyway. There is no wish on his part to see ''dutch auctions'' happening worldwide, afflicting so many products and laying rack and ruin to small focused companies without volume buying power) Economics 101, well worth studying.

Were you given the said shocks at dealer cost how many further sets would you guarantee that would be sold within the first season?

Just for a minute pretend you arent Robert Tamaki from Destiny Suspension and just answer it with a yes or a no.

[Robert Taylor]

Just for a minute pretend you arent Robert Tamaki from Destiny Suspension and just answer it with a yes or a no.

Im being very serious, you are being trivial. I think in general one of the very real dangers with forums is that all too often the keyboard commando's can hold their own ignorance in high regard.

NO. We will not sanction discounting of any product that is already very well priced and with margin that is already slender. For Christs sake no-one in this game can offer Briscoes style 50% off discounts................

Now would you care to answer how many further sets would be ordered in the first season on the basis of stated exposure?

[sidecar bob]

Im being very serious, you are being trivial.


Oh PMSL, knowing both of you, one a little, one a lot, I could imagine this conversation taking place face to face & I would be falling about the place with laughter. We need to arrange it over a few beers.
Imagine a 125 gp bike & a pre 82 hotrod with identical lap times racing together & you get the idea.

[Robert Taylor]

Oh PMSL, knowing both of you, one a little, one a lot, I could imagine this conversation taking place face to face & I would be falling about the place with laughter. We need to arrange it over a few beers.
Imagine a 125 gp bike & a pre 82 hotrod with identical lap times racing together & you get the idea.

Im glad you bought up beer / alcohol because its actually a very valid comparison that Id like to draw attention to. We see people grizzling about the prices of tyres and of various components including such things as shock absorbers. They also want a hell deal and that of course is human nature. ''Ill put your stickers on my race vehicle'' in return for a special price. Of course that sets a precedent for everyone wanting a special price and ( cynically ) the crowds that watch many of various racing classes are hardly as big as you see at even club rugby.
But why is it that when I walk into a bar at say a motorcycle prizegiving ( or any bar which for me is increasingly infrequent ) I dont hear loads of people grizzling about the price? Or offering to put the alcohol vendors stickers on their race vehicle in return for special pricing?
What is actually so different?

[Ocean1]

What is actually so different?

The purchase of a shiny new TTX doesn't actually make it more likely that the new owner will buy another one?

[pete376403]

The purchase of a shiny new TTX doesn't actually make it more likely that the new owner will buy another one?

Might make it even less likely - when the current bike is sold the OEM POS goes back on and the TTX is reworked to fit the replacement bike.

[nodrog]

....
Shaun supplies me with a product, which I pay all costs for (so it costs him nothing), and he gets advertising space on my sidecar. Is that a bad deal for Shaun?


.... just answer it with a yes or a no.


NO.

I totally agree with you, I think it is a superb deal for Shaun. In fact I think you will find that the marketing departments of all major brands (Ohlins included) think this form of low/no cost advertising is a good deal and highly effective. Hence why they all supply stickers etc with their products.




......Now would you care to answer how many further sets would be ordered in the first season on the basis of stated exposure?

How the fuck would I know? I'm not some sort of divine Soothsayer. I'm supplying advertising space, not hopes and dreams.

[Robert Taylor]

I totally agree with you, I think it is a superb deal for Shaun. In fact I think you will find that the marketing departments of all major brands (Ohlins included) think this form of low/no cost advertising is a good deal and highly effective. Hence why they all supply stickers etc with their products.





How the fuck would I know? I'm not some sort of divine Soothsayer. I'm supplying advertising space, not hopes and dreams.

Just so you are abundantly clear Ohlins ( the factory themselves ) do not sponsor anyone. They dont have to. People purchase the ''dream'' at the going rate

[Robert Taylor]

The purchase of a shiny new TTX doesn't actually make it more likely that the new owner will buy another one?

The point I was trying to make is that often beer spirits and wine will be marked up at as much as several hundred percent at many functions. Its kind of odd where we have such double standards where people largely accept it.

[AllanB]

I just can't believe how much decent underwear costs now - no way I'm paying $25-$30 for a set of jocks. Lucky for me a NZ site I frequent often has a 'name brand' on special very cheaply. Much to the amusement of Mrs B I now 'stock-up' on underwear when they have a sale.

I blame advertising for the price hike in underwear - some years back it suddenly became trendy to have branded men's undies. Reckon there is a sponsorship market right there for a racer - hell, you don't even have to be good, in fact the worse you are may be better advertising after all if that shit guy who keeps falling off wears brand X undies they must be darn good as he will be soiling them frequently ;)

[nzspokes]

I just can't believe how much decent underwear costs now - no way I'm paying $25-$30 for a set of jocks. Lucky for me a NZ site I frequent often has a 'name brand' on special very cheaply. Much to the amusement of Mrs B I now 'stock-up' on underwear when they have a sale.

I blame advertising for the price hike in underwear - some years back it suddenly became trendy to have branded men's undies. Reckon there is a sponsorship market right there for a racer - hell, you don't even have to be good, in fact the worse you are may be better advertising after all if that shit guy who keeps falling off wears brand X undies they must be darn good as he will be soiling them frequently ;)

If you chuck the old ones through the washing machine every now and then they will last much longer. :laugh:

[Ocean1]

If you chuck the old ones through the washing machine every now and then they will last much longer. :laugh:

Cue advice re turning them around... inside out...

[nodrog]

Just so you are abundantly clear Ohlins ( the factory themselves ) do not sponsor anyone.

Correct. That's probably why I didn't mention they did.

[scrivy]

296410

Enough said..........

[pritch]

when the current bike is sold the OEM POS goes back on and the Ohlins is reworked to fit the replacement bike.

Aaaaah my kinda guy.:2thumbsup

[husaberg]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ohlins-HO406-Honda-RS-125-1998-2008-shock-absorber-S46PR1C1L-Sweden-/201084449440?ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123