A new mid-capacity class?

[CHOPPA]

I was cringing just writing that title :crazy: haha

I have had an idea that id spoken with a few people about so I think it warrants the conversation on here see if anyone could raise potential pit falls or engine problems that I hadnt thought of. Im gonna be selfish and ask that you just discuss this idea and not what you your alternative ideas for a mid sized class like production this or that.

The concept is basically just a supersport bike with nominated size restricters in the intake to limit the HP to around 70hp. Much like what they do in the UK for there LAMS bike laws...

http://www.fiinternational.com/our-products.asp

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-CBR-600-F2-Carburettor-Model-Restrictor-Kit-33-BHP-certificate-/221392186960?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item338c00ae50

That way kids stepping off 250s, 125s etc could get on a 600 thats either done its dash in Supersport or they can go with a longer term plan and set a bike up for Supersport and then run restricters. It would be the best way to ezz them into racing a big bike so they get used to the chassis without all the power on tap and then its a very easy step to the next class, supersport. 2 steps with only 1 bike...

Also very easy to check if anyone is cheating just pull off manifold and measure.

Basically same concept as OZZYS 450 but just a little bit easier.

Thoughts?? :brick::corn:

[scott411]

would you want to replace a class? or run this in addition to what is already out there?

[Edbear]

A Supersport development class? Sounds like a plan. I had a lot of fun with my old GSX600F with 80hp. The good thing about using the 600's is that the likes of Pro - twins is too different for a stepping stone. Another plus is, as you pointed out, that it's simpler than making a 450.

I'd love to see the CBR500R class over here too. If we get that as well, there would need to be a big enough difference in hp to make the 600's a step up.

[Mental Trousers]

If they're running restrictors so they only get about 70hp they'd be fine in Superlite, although the regs would have to be changed.

The idea has merit I reckon.

[CHOPPA]

I think get rid of F3 and Pro Twin at a National level completely Scotty. 1 year all in combined phase in...

250/300/500 Learner Class

Moto 3 / 125s

600 Restricted Class

600 Expert / 600 Supersport Combined

1000 Expert / 1000 Superbike Combined

[Mental Trousers]

What about all the existing F3 bikes out there?? Are you saying they should all be retired and everyone go out and buy something else??

[CHOPPA]

What about all the existing F3 bikes out there?? Are you saying they should all be retired and everyone go out and buy something else??

Yeah pretty much, would have atleast 18 months to sort something out or in your case pretty easy to pick up another engine and fit some restricters. Im only talking at National level though

[scott411]

I think get rid of F3 and Pro Twin at a National level completely Scotty. 1 year all in combined phase in...

250/300/500 Learner Class

Moto 3 / 125s

600 Restricted Class

600 Expert / 600 Supersport Combined

1000 Expert / 1000 Superbike Combined

I dont know why you would want to drop pro twin and F3 which have more numbers than 125's/moto 3?, what is the problem of having those classes at the nationals, i think they are just as good of a stepping stone as a restricted 600 is,

if the tyre rules are the same for the 600 restricted class then how much cheaper than a full supersport 600 will they be,

also, what ist he point of having the expert class? in the same race?

[CHOPPA]

I dont know why you would want to drop pro twin and F3 which have more numbers than 125's/moto 3?, what is the problem of having those classes at the nationals, i think they are just as good of a stepping stone as a restricted 600 is,

if the tyre rules are the same for the 600 restricted class then how much cheaper than a full supersport 600 will they be,

also, what ist he point of having the expert class? in the same race?

I think all the F3 guys should get on the 600 restricted bikes, its such a messy class. People come to watch and I cant even explain what the bikes are and the rules. To have 5 different classes competing together just waters everything down and creates seperation. Also all manufacturers have suitable bikes for the restricted class. I would just as soon drop 125/Moto 3 as well.

The reason for the expert classes to be combined is we dont have enough population to have it seperate. The expert class would be so it encourages club racers to race national events on a limited budget because it has more tyre restrictions and there are restrictions on who can enter the expert class etc

As for cost the tyres for restricted class could be dramatically reduced due to the lack of HP. You cant make it any cheaper. Having a reliable new restricted 600 running 2 sets of tyres per weekend is as cheap as its gonna get in road racing

[Mental Trousers]

You totally miss the point of F3/Superlite. It's for people who want to build something that isn't yet another clone. They get to do whatever they like, whatever they can dream up. If I had the money to spend on whatever race bike I wanted to I sure as fuck wouldn't be building a 600 or superbike, I'd be building something different and unique. There's no more F1 or F2 so F3 is the only class left for people with an imagination.

[richban]

You totally miss the point of F3/Superlite. It's for people who want to build something that isn't yet another clone. They get to do whatever they like, whatever they can dream up. If I had the money to spend on whatever race bike I wanted to I sure as fuck wouldn't be building a 600 or superbike, I'd be building something different and unique. There's no more F1 or F2 so F3 is the only class left for people with an imagination.

What he said.

You are suggesting turning a race bike into a slow heavy pice of shit. Ummmm?

F3 is a great class. Or super buckets as I like to think of it. My NSR300 will be done soon. 80hp 105kg what bike would you rather ride?

[CHOPPA]

You totally miss the point of F3/Superlite. It's for people who want to build something that isn't yet another clone. They get to do whatever they like, whatever they can dream up. If I had the money to spend on whatever race bike I wanted to I sure as fuck wouldn't be building a 600 or superbike, I'd be building something different and unique. There's no more F1 or F2 so F3 is the only class left for people with an imagination.

That is great but IMO it doesnt fit with the Superbike national series. I think there should be an alternative series that caters for the more diverse classes ie post classic, classics, F3, Superlite, Naked and Twins, sidecars.

In fact if they were separate I guarantee id be a starter in one of those classes in the other series. Prob naked or twins.

Motocross nationals seem to be on the up and up, clear class progression, modern familiar bikes.

[CHOPPA]

What he said.

You are suggesting turning a race bike into a slow heavy pice of shit. Ummmm?

F3 is a great class. Or super buckets as I like to think of it. My NSR300 will be done soon. 80hp 105kg what bike would you rather ride?

Not saying it isnt a great class and yes id take the 80hp 600 and lap you

Somethings gotta give though and this is a modern production bike series, if you dont like modern production why are you so intent on racing in that series?

Im not saying delete F3 from the rulebook

[richban]

Not saying it isnt a great class and yes id take the 80hp 600 and lap you


Hang on a minute I thought you said 70hp. Lap me! I feel a foolish bet coming on.:sweatdrop

[Mental Trousers]

Hang on a minute I thought you said 70hp. Lap me! I feel a foolish bet coming on.:sweatdrop

:jerry: :stupid:

[CHOPPA]

Hang on a minute I thought you said 70hp. Lap me! I feel a foolish bet coming on.:sweatdrop

Ah yeah 70hp :shifty:

[Damien_Toman]

Richban on a bucket is a great sight to behold:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dty1/8648408378/in/set-72157633238414607

He tends to lap, rather than the other!

On a big bucket he would also be competitive with anything that has similar horsepower. I think we should have a Moto3 class - big buckets :).

Damien

[CHOPPA]

Richban on a bucket is a great sight to behold:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dty1/8648408378/in/set-72157633238414607

He tends to lap, rather than the other!

On a big bucket he would also be competitive with anything that has similar horsepower. I think we should have a Moto3 class - big buckets :).

Damien

Yup I have raced him on a bucket. Ill take my chances

[Damien_Toman]

Moto3-style 250 single 4-stroke class, with slicks, open to all mods - incl MX engines, including naked, rather than a new 600cc variation?

[mr bucketracer]

i think chuck the boring looking things in the protwins , leave the f3 aloan, at least i can tell one rider from the other

[budda]

Moto3-style 250 single 4-stroke class, with slicks, open to all mods - incl MX engines, including naked, rather than a new 600cc variation?

Ever READ the rules we brought in YEARS ago to allow exactly that ???????:weird:

[Shaun Harris]

I was cringing just writing that title :crazy: haha

Im gonna be selfish and ask that you just discuss this idea and not what you your alternative ideas for a mid sized class like production this or that.








So how do you see the HP out put being policed dude? as every dyno for a start gives different readings. " Trying to respond as per your request on this subject"

[Billy]

I think get rid of F3 and Pro Twin at a National level completely Scotty. 1 year all in combined phase in...

250/300/500 Learner Class

Moto 3 / 125s

600 Restricted Class

600 Expert / 600 Supersport Combined

1000 Expert / 1000 Superbike Combined

So,

During the recently completed NZSBK series,Where we had up to 50% more entries at some rounds and an increase overall,The best racing we've seen for many years and a plan going forward,Somehow you think its a good idea to change everything BUT the class that was struggling for numbers????I don't disagree with the lightweight class,In fact it was already being discussed but not combining it with 250 Production.
No need to reinvent the wheel until we get into the position the Aussies are at the moment.

[scott411]

That is great but IMO it doesnt fit with the Superbike national series. I think there should be an alternative series that caters for the more diverse classes ie post classic, classics, F3, Superlite, Naked and Twins, sidecars.

In fact if they were separate I guarantee id be a starter in one of those classes in the other series. Prob naked or twins.

Motocross nationals seem to be on the up and up, clear class progression, modern familiar bikes.

I dont think we could handle another national series, there are plenty of club series out there if you feel you need more racing, with the Tri/Suzuki series and the nationals its a good mix,

as for Motocross, I dont think its as rosie as you paint it, but I agree its getting better, but no where near the numbers we had in the late 90's early 2000's when me and you were banging bars in it, and thats at club level and national level, the junior fields at the moment are pretty average numbers wise, but hopefully as the economy gets better the numbers will as well,

as for F3, i tend to agree with saving it, I like the fact their are different bikes in it, i think it would be just has hard to explain why the bikes that look just the same as the 600's, are way slower and sound horrible,

also, where would these bikes race at club level? as no one is going to build a bike to race 4 meetings a year,

[jellywrestler]

as for F3, i tend to agree with saving it, I like the fact their are different bikes in it, i think it would be just has hard to explain why the bikes that look just the same as the 600's, are way slower and sound horrible,



Anyone remember the famous Katana 550 class, they weren't competitive in the 550 or 600 class of the day and didn't appeal to anyone.
At the end of the day it wasn't worth a cunt full of cold snow. F3 is a great class for people who want to develop their bikes and for bikes out there that don't fit within the narrow guidelines of the other classes.

[Shaun Harris]

Anyone remember the famous Katana 550 class, they weren't competitive in the 550 or 600 class of the day and didn't appeal to anyone.
At the end of the day it wasn't worth a cunt full of cold snow. F3 is a great class for people who want to develop their bikes and for bikes out there that don't fit within the narrow guidelines of the other classes.










Agree with you and scott re F 3

[scott411]

Anyone remember the famous Katana 550 class, they weren't competitive in the 550 or 600 class of the day and didn't appeal to anyone.
At the end of the day it wasn't worth a cunt full of cold snow. F3 is a great class for people who want to develop their bikes and for bikes out there that don't fit within the narrow guidelines of the other classes.

i think the CBR500 class (or NInja 300 class) would be the same, it would work while someone was putting money into it, then die as soon as that cash went away,

for reference, see this spec class in car racing here, anyone remember the Nissan sentra's, Suzuki Swifts, Mini Coopers, etc, the latest one they have is the Toyota 86's, which will run for as long as toyota will pay the bills, I dont see it as a long term solution for anything,

the reason the 250 proddy is working is because its easy to get a Ninja 250 because a shit load of them were sold between 08-10, and they are easy to find, and cheap to build and run,

[budda]

I was cringing just writing that title :crazy: haha

I have had an idea that id spoken with a few people about so I think it warrants the conversation on here see if anyone could raise potential pit falls or engine problems that I hadnt thought of. Im gonna be selfish and ask that you just discuss this idea and not what you your alternative ideas for a mid sized class like production this or that.

The concept is basically just a supersport bike with nominated size restricters in the intake to limit the HP to around 70hp. Much like what they do in the UK for there LAMS bike laws...

http://www.fiinternational.com/our-products.asp

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-CBR-600-F2-Carburettor-Model-Restrictor-Kit-33-BHP-certificate-/221392186960?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item338c00ae50

That way kids stepping off 250s, 125s etc could get on a 600 thats either done its dash in Supersport or they can go with a longer term plan and set a bike up for Supersport and then run restricters. It would be the best way to ezz them into racing a big bike so they get used to the chassis without all the power on tap and then its a very easy step to the next class, supersport. 2 steps with only 1 bike...

Also very easy to check if anyone is cheating just pull off manifold and measure.

Basically same concept as OZZYS 450 but just a little bit easier.

Thoughts?? :brick::corn:

Well aware this comes across as a cockhead question Chop, but sobeit ....... seriously -
When you were coming up through the Jumping Bike classes ( as I did too ) would you have jumped at the chance of moving to the next big Class if the bikes were restricted to only 70% of their power until "someone" deemed that you could handle it, and could adjust the suspension properly ?

[The Chow]

Ever READ the rules we brought in YEARS ago to allow exactly that ???????:weird:

doh: STOP IT BUDDA! you are asking people to read the MOMS (or rule book if you didn't know.):laugh: I think Sloan has a good point , THIS IS JUST AT CURRENT NATIONAL LEVEL he is talkng about. May be a second system for F3 etc , the bikes are old in General. The Winners bike this year won ten years ago , also , second place was made from spares!!!

Oh well another good idea that will probably have the great Kiwi knocking machine going full tit. God forbid we change anything just to try and make a small change in mind set. Congrats to the commission who change the Superbike and Supersport rules a few years back , their vision paid off with decent feilds in both classes for several years after. At the same time the rules were changed for F3/Superlite and the numbers did NOT grow same with Pro Twin they have been static in numbers for years now.. Sometimes change does work other times not so much.

[jellywrestler]

doh: STOP IT BUDDA! you are asking people to read the MOMS (or rule book if you didn't know.):laugh: I think Sloan has a good point , THIS IS JUST AT CURRENT NATIONAL LEVEL he is talkng about. May be a second system for F3 etc , the bikes are old in General. The Winners bike this year won ten years ago , also , second place was made from spares!!!

yip and a 6 yr old bike got a lap record in supers and adam unsworths sidecar is over 25 yrs old and still has the lap record at paeroa........

[jellywrestler]

tit. hehehe, you said Tit.

[scott411]

yip and a 6 yr old bike got a lap record in supers and adam unsworths sidecar is over 25 yrs old and still has the lap record at paeroa........

agree totally with this, having to have a new bike to win is a bad thing IMHO, in many forms of motorsport you devolp the car/bike over the years, its not uncomman to see 15 year old speedway cars win races,

[Billy]

doh: STOP IT BUDDA! you are asking people to read the MOMS (or rule book if you didn't know.):laugh: I think Sloan has a good point , THIS IS JUST AT CURRENT NATIONAL LEVEL he is talkng about. May be a second system for F3 etc , the bikes are old in General. The Winners bike this year won ten years ago , also , second place was made from spares!!!

Oh well another good idea that will probably have the great Kiwi knocking machine going full tit. God forbid we change anything just to try and make a small change in mind set. Congrats to the commission who change the Superbike and Supersport rules a few years back , their vision paid off with decent feilds in both classes for several years after. At the same time the rules were changed for F3/Superlite and the numbers did NOT grow same with Pro Twin they have been static in numbers for years now.. Sometimes change does work other times not so much.

Yea,

I thought the idea with the changes to Superbike and Supersport were to make them more expensive and therefore to make the then newly introduced Superstock classes more attractive so folks would gravitate to the cheaper option?That worked well LOL.

I like the idea of the restrictors in the 600s though,But why not just allow them 90 rwhp and run them in Superlite,The onus would be on the competitor to have their machine detuned and sealed,Any machine that showed a clear advantage in straightline speed could be impounded and dynoed,If found to be illegal when rechecked then a matter of fact exclusion would apply,Be easy to check if the restrictors were in place surely,New mid size production class in my mind would be 251-500cc 4 stroke twin to include the likes of the CBR500,EX300,KTM390 and the new 300 from Yamaha,Stock suspension and slip on only,NO powercommander or autotune.

[budda]

agree totally with this, having to have a new bike to win is a bad thing IMHO, in many forms of motorsport you devolp the car/bike over the years, its not uncomman to see 15 year old speedway cars win races,

THAT is EXACTLY why us stupid idiots of the Old Commission made such a far cup of the rules, to allow people to upgrade rather than replace every coupla seasons

There MUST be a place for the Kiwi Fiddler, otherwise the only guys with fast bikes will be riding someone elses budgets every year

[budda]

doh: STOP IT BUDDA! you are asking people to read the MOMS (or rule book if you didn't know.):laugh: I think Sloan has a good point , THIS IS JUST AT CURRENT NATIONAL LEVEL he is talkng about. May be a second system for F3 etc , the bikes are old in General. The Winners bike this year won ten years ago , also , second place was made from spares!!!

.

Someone help me out here - other than the chosen few who flit all over the shop on other folks wallets, where do the MAJORITY of Nationals Competitors learn to ply their trade ?

We need to get real here guys, the number of people who can afford to run a separate bike for 4-5 meetings a year is TINY compared to the HUNDREDS who ride for the FUN OF IT - pure and simple.

We had a proposal to run 100% stock 600's a while back, c/w an undertaking from Distributors to back it with entries and control ECU's. Tyre degradation is much less of an issue with std boingers if we run harder tyres by legislation - speeds come down, load on suspension comes down, tyre life comes up.

No new lap records compared to current 600's, but 600 version of 250 Proddy racing would be AWESOME to watch, and affordable to compete in

[driftn]

Yup I have raced him on a bucket. Ill take my chances

You must spread some rep before giving to CHOPPA..........

[mr bucketracer]

and I wonder why I got back into racing:doh:

[CHOPPA]

The idea behind me starting the thread wasnt to discuss what classes should stay or go but thats inevitable I guess.

I have had numerous conversations with young guys and their parents who are looking for the next step after they move on from their 125 or 250. Their goal is to get onto a 600 or 1000 in the not too distant future but the leap straight to a 600 is too great initially. The pro twin and superlite dont provide a clear progression to these other classes and its often difficult to build a competitive reliable bike so the restricted 600 makes a lot of sense.

I am not suggesting a HP cap, merely just a restrictor size of lets say 30mm (complete guess) its a self limiting factor

[CHOPPA]

as for F3, i tend to agree with saving it, I like the fact their are different bikes in it, i think it would be just has hard to explain why the bikes that look just the same as the 600's, are way slower and sound horrible,

also, where would these bikes race at club level? as no one is going to build a bike to race 4 meetings a year,

I think calling the it 600 Restricted would be explanation enough

I raced 15 club road racing events last year



Well aware this comes across as a cockhead question Chop, but sobeit ....... seriously -
When you were coming up through the Jumping Bike classes ( as I did too ) would you have jumped at the chance of moving to the next big Class if the bikes were restricted to only 70% of their power until "someone" deemed that you could handle it, and could adjust the suspension properly ?

No I wouldnt Budda cause I have big balls unlike all the other whimps hahahaaha Seriously though, I was racing 80cc bikes at 8, 125cc bikes at 12 and 250cc (2 Stroke) at 18. I raced 600s for 6 months then I went to Superbike. People are too scared to put their 16 year old kids on 600s (as would I) so this would provide that step then they can step up to the class they actually want to ride for FREE.

Building a pro twin or superlite then selling that and starting all over again is hard work plus the rider has to get used to a totally new bike. Getting on a 70/80hp 600 and then just giving it another 40hp when the kid is good to go seem like a good idea.

[scott411]

Building a pro twin or superlite then selling that and starting all over again is hard work plus the rider has to get used to a totally new bike. Getting on a 70/80hp 600 and then just giving it another 40hp when the kid is good to go seem like a good idea.

i think sometimes the excuse is out there that its to much power, and if that's taken away another excuse will come up,

I think the cost of the current tyre rule is keeping people away from the 600's, more than anything, and maybe your expert class idea with a much less tyres to be used per weekend is the way to go,

[budda]

i think sometimes the excuse is out there that its to much power, and if that's taken away another excuse will come up,

I think the cost of the current tyre rule is keeping people away from the 600's, more than anything, and maybe your expert class idea with a much less tyres to be used per weekend is the way to go,

ONE Set per 3 race weekend would sort it - testing would prove the theory, standard suspension on harder race tyres, on and on I go, like an organ-grinders monkey ( yes, I KNOW I left myself open )

[scott411]

ONE Set per 3 race weekend would sort it - testing would prove the theory, standard suspension on harder race tyres, on and on I go, like an organ-grinders monkey ( yes, I KNOW I left myself open )

i agree totally, tyre management is a big part of a lot of motorsport, watching the v8's yesterday and their was a 4-6 sec a lap difference on worn tyres,

[Billy]

I think the cost of the current tyre rule is keeping people away from the 600's, more than anything, and maybe your expert class idea with a much less tyres to be used per weekend is the way to go,

Yea,

Or not,Apparently 3 sets of tyres(Actually 2 fronts 3 rears) for 2 days racing was dangerous,I can't see the current crop of 600 pilots accepting any less than 4 sets for next season,Still,That said there were some who only used 1 or 2 sets per weekend

[budda]

The idea behind me starting the thread wasnt to discuss what classes should stay or go but thats inevitable I guess.

I have had numerous conversations with young guys and their parents who are looking for the next step after they move on from their 125 or 250. Their goal is to get onto a 600 or 1000 in the not too distant future but the leap straight to a 600 is too great initially. The pro twin and superlite dont provide a clear progression to these other classes and its often difficult to build a competitive reliable bike so the restricted 600 makes a lot of sense.

I am not suggesting a HP cap, merely just a restrictor size of lets say 30mm (complete guess) its a self limiting factor

Just so I'm clear here, what is it you think the restrictors are RESTRICTING Chop ?

[budda]

i agree totally, tyre management is a big part of a lot of motorsport, watching the v8's yesterday and their was a 4-6 sec a lap difference on worn tyres,

In 2000?, we were running a pace that would have had us inside the top 10-12? last weekend, and we used 1 front and 2 rears in 6 HOURS at that pace, ON STANDARD SUSPENSION.

SURELY, with all the advancements in standard suspension and tyre technology, modern fast guys can get an hour and a half out of a set ? That's a full weekends racing ( practice not included )

[Edbear]

I think calling the it 600 Restricted would be explanation enough

I raced 15 club road racing events last year

No I wouldnt Budda cause I have big balls unlike all the other whimps hahahaaha Seriously though, I was racing 80cc bikes at 8, 125cc bikes at 12 and 250cc (2 Stroke) at 18. I raced 600s for 6 months then I went to Superbike. People are too scared to put their 16 year old kids on 600s (as would I) so this would provide that step then they can step up to the class they actually want to ride for FREE.

Building a pro twin or superlite then selling that and starting all over again is hard work plus the rider has to get used to a totally new bike. Getting on a 70/80hp 600 and then just giving it another 40hp when the kid is good to go seem like a good idea.

Never ceases to amaze me how people can so quickly complicate a simple idea! The attraction of using the 600's is that as a "development class", the riders get used to the handling and set-up of the class of bike they want to ride - Supersports. Some here have made it sound like a stepping down, rather than a stepping up from the 250's.

[CHOPPA]

In oz we are using 1 set of tyres for 3 races on superbikes. The guys doing 2 classes run them for 6 races and are still fast

[budda]

Never ceases to amaze me how people can so quickly complicate a simple idea! The attraction of using the 600's is that as a "development class", the riders get used to the handling and set-up of the class of bike they want to ride - Supersports. Some here have made it sound like a stepping down, rather than a stepping up from the 250's.

Still never had it explained to me why some on here, many of whom have never raced, persist with this fallacy that there is a career path that must be followed to "progress" ...........

........ BOVINE EXCREMENT !!!!!!!!!! IF you have genuine aspirations to get to the lofty heights of the Sport, by all means go the 1+1=2 route. But if, like most, you are riding for the sheer exhilaration of it, who are all these knob-jockies to tell you what class you must ride in, and that you MUST "progress"

Most guys in new Zealand fall into the latter group, some because they're getting all they want out of the Class they're IN, others because their wallet is the determining factor. There IS no compulsion to "move up", it simply doesn't work

[budda]

Never ceases to amaze me how people can so quickly complicate a simple idea! The attraction of using the 600's is that as a "development class", the riders get used to the handling and set-up of the class of bike they want to ride - Supersports. Some here have made it sound like a stepping down, rather than a stepping up from the 250's.

So you want Little Johnnie to be able to race for a Championship while he is developing the skills to race with the big boys - God help us, mini-motocross has arrived on tarseal .........

And who says a Class where the bikes are mechanically restricted to a fraction of their potential is a step UP from a Class where the only restriction is the testicular capacity of the pilot ( sadly, with one or two obvious exceptions )

Current 600's are like a Jap Import car - the jockey runs out of ability long before the mechanics - 2fiddy's are like the 105E's of the bike world - run out of handling and go long before the good guys run out of brave - but they sort of the men from the boys

[RobGassit]

You can dream up as many different classes as you like, but the classes that survive, if not flourish, during these difficult financial times, are the ones supported by riders who pay their own way each meeting. Maybe Superbike and Supersport should get their own classes sorted, before thowing rocks at the classes that race while they change tyres and take selfies for facebook. NZ is ripe for a stand alone series like FX that gives real racers a break from the prima ballerinas.

p.s Went to a VMX on the weekend, big crowd, free entry for spectators, good entries for many different classes, no licences reqd, no club memberships,,no assholes with big heads...

[Edbear]

So you want Little Johnnie to be able to race for a Championship while he is developing the skills to race with the big boys - God help us, mini-motocross has arrived on tarseal .........

And who says a Class where the bikes are mechanically restricted to a fraction of their potential is a step UP from a Class where the only restriction is the testicular capacity of the pilot ( sadly, with one or two obvious exceptions )

Current 600's are like a Jap Import car - the jockey runs out of ability long before the mechanics - 2fiddy's are like the 105E's of the bike world - run out of handling and go long before the good guys run out of brave - but they sort of the men from the boys

Please re-read Choppa's OP...

[Shaun Harris]

Haha well it stayed on the focused subject for 1hr an 31 minutes, not bad for KB

[scott411]

Still never had it explained to me why some on here, many of whom have never raced, persist with this fallacy that there is a career path that must be followed to "progress" ...........

........ BOVINE EXCREMENT !!!!!!!!!! IF you have genuine aspirations to get to the lofty heights of the Sport, by all means go the 1+1=2 route. But if, like most, you are riding for the sheer exhilaration of it, who are all these knob-jockies to tell you what class you must ride in, and that you MUST "progress"

Most guys in new Zealand fall into the latter group, some because they're getting all they want out of the Class they're IN, others because their wallet is the determining factor. There IS no compulsion to "move up", it simply doesn't work

I agree with this, if buying a F3 bike or a pro twin is a problem money wise, then how on earth will they afford the tyre bill in a few seasons to be up the front of the 600 class anyway,

[scott411]

In oz we are using 1 set of tyres for 3 races on superbikes. The guys doing 2 classes run them for 6 races and are still fast

do you think the same rule should be brought in here for the superbikes and supersport?

[wayne]

In oz we are using 1 set of tyres for 3 races on superbikes. The guys doing 2 classes run them for 6 races and are still fast

yes but how many laps and lenght of a lap ?

you willing to do race races at nationls in nz, on one set of tyres ?

[Robert Taylor]

do you think the same rule should be brought in here for the superbikes and supersport?

If you want to see more crashing and expenditure that way, yes. The field sizes in the two premier classes would suggest that people accept the expenditure and not too much dumbing down is required.

[Robert Taylor]

i agree totally, tyre management is a big part of a lot of motorsport, watching the v8's yesterday and their was a 4-6 sec a lap difference on worn tyres,

Yes but there is less chance of injury when there is no balance required to keep cars upright

[Robert Taylor]

In 2000?, we were running a pace that would have had us inside the top 10-12? last weekend, and we used 1 front and 2 rears in 6 HOURS at that pace, ON STANDARD SUSPENSION.

SURELY, with all the advancements in standard suspension and tyre technology, modern fast guys can get an hour and a half out of a set ? That's a full weekends racing ( practice not included )

Did I hear that right? Advancements in standard suspension? Since when ( for example ) were BPF forks an advancement, other than being a lot cheaper to make?

The marketing guys have a habit of making pigshit sound like strawberry jam and the sad thing is many people believe it.

[Drew]

Why would this class be an improvement over a 600 running on three slugs in F3?

Ya know the valves can be put back in, and the bike becomes a supersport bike again eh?

[CHOPPA]

do you think the same rule should be brought in here for the superbikes and supersport?

Yup, I suggested we have limited tyres. I enjoy managing worn tyres. I was voted against by majority of other riders



You can dream up as many different classes as you like, but the classes that survive, if not flourish, during these difficult financial times, are the ones supported by riders who pay their own way each meeting. Maybe Superbike and Supersport should get their own classes sorted, before thowing rocks at the classes that race while they change tyres and take selfies for facebook. NZ is ripe for a stand alone series like FX that gives real racers a break from the prima ballerinas.

p.s Went to a VMX on the weekend, big crowd, free entry for spectators, good entries for many different classes, no licences reqd, no club memberships,,no assholes with big heads...


You seem to have a complex :baby:




Why would this class be an improvement over a 600 running on three slugs in F3?

Ya know the valves can be put back in, and the bike becomes a supersport bike again eh?


Same end result but putting the restrictor plates in would take about 30 mins and could be done by anyone that knows how to change a tyre. How long does it take to turn the engine to a 450 and back? How much does it cost?

[CHOPPA]

yes but how many laps and lenght of a lap ?

you willing to do race races at nationls in nz, on one set of tyres ?

3x 12 lap races and yeah id be happy to do that

[lostinflyz]

how many people are actually stuck between 125's or 250's and 600's??? about 3-5 per year would be a guess. Thats hardly enough to justify a new class......... the only reason to create this class (much like 650 pro twin in my opinion) would be to add a class in between 125's and 600's that good riders could win in their first year and feel like a champion......

The reality is f3 is appealing to a different demographic than what this class would target.

[Shaun Harris]

fukin young poofters, the bike only goes as fast as you twist the throttle

[Drew]

Yup, I suggested we have limited tyres. I enjoy managing worn tyres. I was voted against by majority of other ridersSo the majority weren't in favour? The system works.







Same end result but putting the restrictor plates in would take about 30 mins and could be done by anyone that knows how to change a tyre. How long does it take to turn the engine to a 450 and back? How much does it cost?Costs the price of a head gasket, and some silicon sealant. If the motor was new, I wouldn't even replace the gasket. Could be changed to a triple over night, and back in the same time. P'raps a bit longer to drop a slug, since ya gotta wait till the glues goes off proper. When I toyed with the idea I was just gonna take the buckets off the inlet valves to stop them opening, so as to only need to glue up one set of stem holes.

You might have noticed lately, people will go to stupid lengths to win any championship. Limiting the air a motor gets reduces power, spend enough money though and you'll get a big chunk of that power back. People will do that. To get their kid a #1 plate in a class, or for any number of other reasons.


fukin young poofters, the bike only goes as fast as you twist the throttleOh yeah, people are gonna not go to full throttle in a race.:lol:

[CHOPPA]

It would be fantastic if people answered the original question...

I have had an idea that id spoken with a few people about so I think it warrants the conversation on here see if anyone could raise potential pit falls or engine problems that I hadnt thought of. Im gonna be selfish and ask that you just discuss this idea and not what you your alternative ideas for a mid sized class like production this or that.

Maybe the idea of another class is wrong but maybe the idea still has merit. You could chuck a kid on a 600 and just limit it yourself and get him to test days and track days until they come to grips with the rest of the bike then unleash the full power

[scott411]

i think the last point you make is very good,

if this class is really needed, is it not better to run it as a club series first, and if it takes off and gets the numbers, then it can come into the nationals, the point is the same for the CBR500 class as well, why do these classes need to be in the nationals to take off?, should it not be the other away round?

[CHOPPA]

i think the last point you make is very good,

if this class is really needed, is it not better to run it as a club series first, and if it takes off and gets the numbers, then it can come into the nationals, the point is the same for the CBR500 class as well, why do these classes need to be in the nationals to take off?, should it not be the other away round?

Yeah I think you make a valid point. The CBR thing would be a bit harder at a club level as its a big investment in a bike that may not be able to race in a National.

If there was some concessions made or a club initiative to let restricted 600s run with F3 at club level it might be the way forward

[Drew]

i think the last point you make is very good,

if this class is really needed, is it not better to run it as a club series first, and if it takes off and gets the numbers, then it can come into the nationals, the point is the same for the CBR500 class as well, why do these classes need to be in the nationals to take off?, should it not be the other away round?
That's all well and good, but clubs run more classes than the Nats rounds already. Though, there is one that should be dropped. Clubmans is a class I don't understand being at club rounds.


Pit falls of the original idea, choking a modern injected bike is doing it no good. I doubt it could compensate for the sort of reduction in flow, with standard mapping.

[Drew]

Yeah I think you make a valid point. The CBR thing would be a bit harder at a club level as its a big investment in a bike that may not be able to race in a National.

If there was some concessions made or a club initiative to let restricted 600s run with F3 at club level it might be the way forward

CBR 500 is eligible for pro twins without a rule change, or any concession.

[Shaun Harris]

So the majority weren't in favour? The system works.








Oh yeah, people are gonna not go to full throttle in a race.:lol:








The ones that do not shit them selves will and the ones that do shit them self will not, so should not be there in the first place on a bike with grunt

[RobGassit]

This thread had some merit to discuss until post #5. Wanting to drop F3 and ProTwin for a class that no one has even attempted in F3 at club level is a brain fart, pure and simple. And to top it all off, both those classes are dominated by your sponsors product, Suzuki!

[Mental Trousers]

The concept is basically just a supersport bike with nominated size restricters in the intake to limit the HP to around 70hp. Much like what they do in the UK for there LAMS bike laws...

http://www.fiinternational.com/our-products.asp

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-CBR-600-F2-Carburettor-Model-Restrictor-Kit-33-BHP-certificate-/221392186960?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item338c00ae50

That way kids stepping off 250s, 125s etc could get on a 600 thats either done its dash in Supersport or they can go with a longer term plan and set a bike up for Supersport and then run restricters. It would be the best way to ezz them into racing a big bike so they get used to the chassis without all the power on tap and then its a very easy step to the next class, supersport. 2 steps with only 1 bike...

I think if the rules for new racers were tweaked then a class with restrictors could well be an excellent way for people to get into racing while using the bike they've got, but only if it's a run what-ya-brung-with-restrictors-in-place class. Obviously the restrictors would need to be different sizes for 2, 3 and 4 cylinder bikes but it's a very cheap way to get into a class that has a Nationals level competition without laying out a huge wad of money. If people spend a season or two there then continue racing in 600's or Superbikes then that's mission achieved.

That way you can have the CBR500's and the restricted 600/4's and many other bikes in the same class all with the same(ish) power.

This would, of course, mean doing away with Clubmans, which isn't a bad thing. Personally I skipped Clubmans and went straight to F3 because there's guys in there being let loose on 600's and litre bikes that don't have a clue what they're doing.



Why would this class be an improvement over a 600 running on three slugs in F3?

Ya know the valves can be put back in, and the bike becomes a supersport bike again eh?


Same end result but putting the restrictor plates in would take about 30 mins and could be done by anyone that knows how to change a tyre. How long does it take to turn the engine to a 450 and back? How much does it cost?

It takes 2 minutes and costs about 20c.

Unplug the fuel injectors for one cylinder from the wiring loom, put a 15ohm resistor across the plug on the loom side, go racing. This is exactly how my bike has been done and with the standard PC3 and pipe it's smack bang in the middle of the max power spread for 450cc triples with stock engines.


The reality is f3 is appealing to a different demographic than what this class would target.

Absolutely


if this class is really needed, is it not better to run it as a club series first, and if it takes off and gets the numbers, then it can come into the nationals, the point is the same for the CBR500 class as well, why do these classes need to be in the nationals to take off?, should it not be the other away round?

Exactly. Anything at National level requires a huge amount of support and participation at club level. Without grass roots there is no National level stuff.

[CHOPPA]

This thread had some merit to discuss until post #5. Wanting to drop F3 and ProTwin for a class that no one has even attempted in F3 at club level is a brain fart, pure and simple. And to top it all off, both those classes are dominated by your sponsors product, Suzuki!


Everything is dominated by SUZUKI

[CHOPPA]

What your saying (MT) about just disconnecting the injector that sounds like an even easier solution and pretty much hits the nail on the head. Its already possible to do that and its not really common place or maybe people just dont realise so that answers the question in the fact the class wouldnt work. Thats a great way for someone to tone down the 600 and they can ride it in F3 a class thats already there. Next time im asked the question that is certainly what I will suggest

[MOTOXXX]

I like the sound of the restricted 600 class.

the older 600 race bikes tend to get put in the back of a shed or taken out to the occasional track day / clubmans race when they stop being competitive.
They just don't hold a lot value after that.

This would be a cost effective way to stay in an F3 level class.
Picking up a cheaper 600 that is a few years old, is easier on tires than a full 600 and ride something with more modern chassis / suspension. Also less strung out than a high end f3 bike.

sounds like a great idea to me.

[Drew]

What your saying (MT) about just disconnecting the injector that sounds like an even easier solution and pretty much hits the nail on the head. Its already possible to do that and its not really common place or maybe people just dont realise so that answers the question in the fact the class wouldnt work. Thats a great way for someone to tone down the 600 and they can ride it in F3 a class thats already there. Next time im asked the question that is certainly what I will suggestIn these conversations you've had, it's clear that you weren't talking to people with a clear understanding of the classes available or bikes eligible for them.

F3 has a very strong following normally. The options of what can be run on a modest budget are staggering. There is also enormous room for development.

I dunno why it's stopped being used as a stepping stone to supersport, because it's the the class that most makes sense to do so.

[budda]

Did I hear that right? Advancements in standard suspension? Since when ( for example ) were BPF forks an advancement, other than being a lot cheaper to make?

The marketing guys have a habit of making pigshit sound like strawberry jam and the sad thing is many people believe it.

Sorry Doc, couldn't find the "tongue in cheek" button on my keyboard

[CHOPPA]

In these conversations you've had, it's clear that you weren't talking to people with a clear understanding of the classes available or bikes eligible for them.

F3 has a very strong following normally. The options of what can be run on a modest budget are staggering. There is also enormous room for development.

I dunno why it's stopped being used as a stepping stone to supersport, because it's the the class that most makes sense to do so.


What bike can I buy new, tune the suspension and win F3?

F3 appeals to people that are happy to ride old custom bikes, people that have graduated from riding buckets and old 125 GP bikes etc plus F3 is like there long term goal, they love a particular bike and tinker with it and its never quite finished and they will ride F3 forever. Thats not progression.

[scott411]

What bike can I buy new, tune the suspension and win F3?

F3 appeals to people that are happy to ride old custom bikes, people that have graduated from riding buckets and old 125 GP bikes etc plus F3 is like there long term goal, they love a particular bike and tinker with it and its never quite finished and they will ride F3 forever. Thats not progression.

Ninja 650R or SV650 or GT650, you could do that and enter in pro twins, and be competitive, then if you did not want to go up in speed and cost to the 600, you could go the F3 route, allowing more suspension tuning, and motor work,

their may be come merit in up specing the suspension allowed in Pro Twins, to get people used to being able to adjust there suspension as Robert and others promotes as being needed,

but the truth is that most NZ road racers do not buy new bikes to race, unless they get a deal from the distributor, there are far more second hand, and insurance write offs put into race bikes, than brand new bikes, esp in the pro twin /F3/ 250 Proddy series,

[budda]

What bike can I buy new, tune the suspension and win F3?

F3 appeals to people that are happy to ride old custom bikes, people that have graduated from riding buckets and old 125 GP bikes etc plus F3 is like there long term goal, they love a particular bike and tinker with it and its never quite finished and they will ride F3 forever. Thats not progression.

Stop playing the flesh trombone and do some thinking Choppa - not everyone WANTS to just buy results, who the hell are YOU to tell people that THEIR fun is of less value than yours ?

This IS a sport, its MEANT to be fun ....... if everybody put as much effort into their Superbikes as many of the F3 guys do, we'd have the WSBK running scared

[jellywrestler]

What bike can I buy new, tune the suspension and win F3?

F3 appeals to people that are happy to ride old custom bikes, people that have graduated from riding buckets and old 125 GP bikes etc plus F3 is like there long term goal, they love a particular bike and tinker with it and its never quite finished and they will ride F3 forever. Thats not progression.

nor is making a class of that size obsolete and hoping that all those competitors will be able to sell their now devalued machine and buy another, with spare wheels etc, that's if they don't just hang up their leathers.

[neil_cb125t]

What bike can I buy new, tune the suspension and win F3?

F3 appeals to people that are happy to ride old custom bikes, people that have graduated from riding buckets and old 125 GP bikes etc plus F3 is like there long term goal, they love a particular bike and tinker with it and its never quite finished and they will ride F3 forever. Thats not progression.

That is why people go to F3 - so they dont have to buy a new 600/1000 every second year!!!

Pro twins is there to fill the need that this thread is about - a class that you can buy a bike do little to it and race. Making further classes that remove competitives from F3 and pro twins will simply water down classes even more. Just like when teh super stock/super sport was trialed. It wasn't effective and all

If anything the big boys should go back to what the public actually understand......whats run at the tri series and works AMAZINGLY

F1 - F2 and F3......... and whats interesting is Classes are full, internationals come over sponsors are there........Questions?

[mr bucketracer]

What bike can I buy new, tune the suspension and win F3?

F3 appeals to people that are happy to ride old custom bikes, people that have graduated from riding buckets and old 125 GP bikes etc plus F3 is like there long term goal, they love a particular bike and tinker with it and its never quite finished and they will ride F3 forever. Thats not progression.so do you like the britten v1000 ?

[Shaun Harris]

F1 - F2 and F3......... and whats interesting is Classes are full, internationals come over sponsors are there........Questions?








Gets my vote

[Mental Trousers]

I think everyone is looking at this the wrong way.

A class that has intake restrictors can replace Pro Twins and Clubmans and also include bikes like the CBR500RR etc. If the intake restrictors allow a maximum of 75hp then it's spot on for a good Pro Twins bike. At club level these can run with F3 or by themselves. You might find some of those Pro Twins bikes are suddenly slower than they are now.

It makes a lot of sense if you think of it as an expansion of Pro Twins that merges a couple of existing classes rather than a replacement for a F3.

[malcy25]

I think at a national level, we have too many classes that look and sound the same to each other as it is, without adding another.

I gave up bothering to go to W(h)anganui about 15 years ago as it just seemed like most races were just the same looking and sounding bikes called a different class.

I'm a long term racer so have a good grip on what is being raced and what class it is, and I'm happy to watch when not racing, but I pity the poor random spectator who doesn't understand.

I don't really care whether F1 or Superbike as these days they will invariably be production based anyway (just the level of mods done will differ), but just one class please. Same for 600's.

I also don't see why all classes need to be production based, nor do I see why riders have to progress - I agree there should be a path, but at some point, people will say, "yep, I'm happy at this level of expenditure or commitment". It's at this end of the spectrum that removes the "same same, but different" that gets a bit boring for the people we are trying to get through the gate to help pay for the racing in the first place, and impress enough so they come back...

Chop, what sort of reaction does he naked bike class get in Aussie?

[budda]

I think everyone is looking at this the wrong way.

A class that has intake restrictors can replace Pro Twins and Clubmans and also include bikes like the CBR500RR etc. If the intake restrictors allow a maximum of 75hp then it's spot on for a good Pro Twins bike. At club level these can run with F3 or by themselves. You might find some of those Pro Twins bikes are suddenly slower than they are now.

It makes a lot of sense if you think of it as an expansion of Pro Twins that merges a couple of existing classes rather than a replacement for a F3.

A pedantic person would turn that around and say "if your bike fits within the current F3/Superlite rules, THATS where it should be run" - wouldn't that solve a lot of (non) issues:bleh:

[budda]

I think at a national level, we have too many classes that look and sound the same to each other as it is, without adding another.

I gave up bothering to go to W(h)anganui about 15 years ago as it just seemed like most races were just the same looking and sounding bikes called a different class.

I'm a long term racer so have a good grip on what is being raced and what class it is, and I'm happy to watch when not racing, but I pity the poor random spectator who doesn't understand.

I don't really care whether F1 or Superbike as these days they will invariably be production based anyway (just the level of mods done will differ), but just one class please. Same for 600's.

I also don't see why all classes need to be production based, nor do I see why riders have to progress - I agree there should be a path, but at some point, people will say, "yep, I'm happy at this level of expenditure or commitment". It's at this end of the spectrum that removes the "same same, but different" that gets a bit boring for the people we are trying to get through the gate to help pay for the racing in the first place, and impress enough so they come back...

Chop, what sort of reaction does he naked bike class get in Aussie?

cant disagree with much of your post - but rejigging our SPORT for the benefit of those watching rather than those DOING is very much arse before elbow in my not so humble opinion

[scott411]

I think at a national level, we have too many classes that look and sound the same to each other as it is, without adding another.

I gave up bothering to go to W(h)anganui about 15 years ago as it just seemed like most races were just the same looking and sounding bikes called a different class.




Wanganui and tri sereis classes are

F1
F2
F3/Superlight
Post Classic,
Classic
Super Motard
Bears
and sidecar,

really the only two that sound and look are the F1 and F2, so maybe its time you head back again,

[Mental Trousers]

A pedantic person would turn that around and say "if your bike fits within the current F3/Superlite rules, THATS where it should be run" - wouldn't that solve a lot of (non) issues:bleh:

A pedant would be looking for an argument then.

Where does a newish rider with a GSXR750 fit? Or a Ducati 898? Stick intake restrictors in them and you've got a much safer environment for newer riders than the current Clubmans setup.

I really don't like the Clubmans class. It mixes vastly different machinery ridden by inexperienced (at racing) riders.

[scott411]

A pedant would be looking for an argument then.

Where does a newish rider with a GSXR750 fit? Or a Ducati 898? Stick intake restrictors in them and you've got a much safer environment for newer riders than the current Clubmans setup.

I really don't like the Clubmans class. It mixes vastly different machinery ridden by inexperienced (at racing) riders.

I doubt they would want their first race at the nationals either, which Choppa first started out for,

and I thought it was about using 600's, as they could go unrestrict them and go into supersport, neither of those bikes would be any good for that,

[budda]

A pedant would be looking for an argument then.

Where does a newish rider with a GSXR750 fit? Or a Ducati 898? Stick intake restrictors in them and you've got a much safer environment for newer riders than the current Clubmans setup.

I really don't like the Clubmans class. It mixes vastly different machinery ridden by inexperienced (at racing) riders.

Which very nicely illustrates my point - most guys are NOT buying a bike to race, they want to race the one they've got. If they WERE buying a GSXR750 or the Duck for the track, their dealer sold 'em a pup.

People new to racing are typically NOT entering Clubmans at a Nationals meeting - FACT.......

The "Clubmans" Class at nationals is a catch-all designed to A; get more people exposed to the Nationals environment, and B; get some much needed entry fees into the coffers of the organising Club

Tell us, oh argumentive one, how many bad prangs have been had by Clubmans competitors at Nationals meetings in the last 10 years ? NOW, contrast that with the number of similar incidents at CLUB DAYS ..... where is the problem ?????????

[Mental Trousers]

I doubt they would want their first race at the nationals either, which Choppa first started out for,

That's the riders choice. Chop is normal. Run it as a class either separately or mixed in with F3 at club level and racers in the class wouldn't have to go do a Nationals event if they didn't want to.


and I thought it was about using 600's, as they could go unrestrict them and go into supersport, neither of those bikes would be any good for that,

The original question was, but I don't see why you'd restrict it to just 4/600's. Restrictors can even out the performance of widely varying bikes so that they're suddenly all very similar. By opening it up to almost anything as long as it runs the appropriate restrictor you've got
what Choppa was originally talking about but also


a class for existing bikes like the Pro Twins
a limited performance class that can be a great intro for new racers
a class that could be run at Nationals level
a class that can run at club level, either separately or mixed in with F3
bikes such as R6's etc can be upgraded to other classes by removing the restrictors

You also do away with a class whose original intention has been wiped out by the ridiculous performance levels of modern road bikes.

[Shaun Harris]

A pedant would be looking for an argument then.

Where does a newish rider with a GSXR750 fit? Or a Ducati 898? Stick intake restrictors in them and you've got a much safer environment for newer riders than the current Clubmans setup.

I really don't like the Clubmans class. It mixes vastly different machinery ridden by inexperienced (at racing) riders.






They fit in the club scene where they belong. Other wise they should have purchased a bike that fits into the nats series if that is what they want to do.

The Nats are for people who are about SERIOUS Fun, the club scene and club mans is for people who either want to get started racing or for people who really just want to have fun and go racing

Good luck with this thread Choppa, and good on ya for thinking outside the square and looking for areas to try and improve BUT BUT BUT


Nationals
F1
F2
F3


Club series

what ever the club wants to run and side cars unless they stay with the trucks for good!

[budda]

That's the riders choice. Chop is normal. Run it as a class either separately or mixed in with F3 at club level and racers in the class wouldn't have to go do a Nationals event if they didn't want to.





a class for existing bikes like the Pro Twins
a limited performance class that can be a great intro for new racers
a class that could be run at Nationals level
a class that can run at club level, either separately or mixed in with F3
bikes such as R6's etc can be upgraded to other classes by removing the restrictors

.

You mean that exciting Nationals Class called SuperLite ?

[Mental Trousers]

Which very nicely illustrates my point - most guys are NOT buying a bike to race, they want to race the one they've got. If they WERE buying a GSXR750 or the Duck for the track, their dealer sold 'em a pup.

People new to racing are typically NOT entering Clubmans at a Nationals meeting - FACT.......

The "Clubmans" Class at nationals is a catch-all designed to A; get more people exposed to the Nationals environment, and B; get some much needed entry fees into the coffers of the organising Club

Tell us, oh argumentive one, how many bad prangs have been had by Clubmans competitors at Nationals meetings in the last 10 years ? NOW, contrast that with the number of similar incidents at CLUB DAYS ..... where is the problem ?????????

So you'd be the pedant then.

This is getting off topic somemore but however.

I realize Clubmans riders aren't entering National level events, there wasn't even a Clubmans class at some events this year. But the way to encourage them to enter at that level is to have a reason to spend the money and get the experience, something which having a National ranking can provide, racing against similar performance machinery instead of hugely different gear, chasing Nationally ranked riders around at club level etc. All motivators to enter a National level event.

Also, I know Clubmans haven't had any really serious crashes but that doesn't change the fact when it was originally introduced the bikes had a fraction of the performance they do now. Just because nobody has died doesn't mean it's safe. That's the sort of argument Roading NZ (or whatever they're called) would use. Besides, having alsorts of differing machine performance doesn't encourage anyone to step up to a Nationals event if they're just going to get their arse handed to them by a bunch of litre bikes.

[Mental Trousers]

You mean that exciting Nationals Class called SuperLite ?

It should still be called F3 dammit.

But F3 doesn't fit the other criteria that Chop was talking about. The bike performance in F3 varies widely and doesn't offer the sort of competition that a restricted performance class can.

[Shaun Harris]

All 600 bikes are NOT = in Horse power or Tourque in the first place. So to make this idea fair, it would require a lot of testing work to develop the write size restricters for each 600 and 675 availlable. And then you would need the SAME dyno for any testing and or protest to prove the Horse power out put, and then it only takes a cleaver person to wire in some thing to limit the Horse power for the Dyno run.



250 production for young learners
Pro twin for slow learners that want/need more time
Superlights for those that want to build there own hot rods with fully adjustable suspension


Then step up to the current 600 rules class if you are ready to go racing hard or just for fun and have the budget

[budda]

so you'd be the pedant then.

This is getting off topic somemore but however.

I realize clubmans riders aren't entering national level events, there wasn't even a clubmans class at some events this year. But the way to encourage them to enter at that level is to have a reason to spend the money and get the experience, something which having a national ranking can provide, racing against similar performance machinery instead of hugely different gear, chasing nationally ranked riders around at club level etc. All motivators to enter a national level event.

Also, i know clubmans haven't had any really serious crashes but that doesn't change the fact when it was originally introduced the bikes had a fraction of the performance they do now. Just because nobody has died doesn't mean it's safe. That's the sort of argument roading nz (or whatever they're called) would use. Besides, having alsorts of differing machine performance doesn't encourage anyone to step up to a nationals event if they're just going to get their arse handed to them by a bunch of litre bikes.

arthur fars cake

[Shaun Harris]

arthur fars cake





hahahahahaha





Man I bet BILLY is laughing his tits off, if the skinny kunt had any

[Mental Trousers]

Man I bet BILLY is laughing his tits off, if the skinny kunt had any

It's just another day on the internet.

[Billy]

hahahahahaha





Man I bet BILLY is laughing his tits off, if the skinny kunt had any

Hahahahaha,Haven't stopped laughing for a coupla days now.

Heres some truth for the "Whales and Dolphin" types amongst us,Back when the country WAS producing riders with what it took to run with the best in the world,The classes were,125GP,250 Production,F3, 600 production,F2,Senior production and F1,ALL those classes are currently available today in 1 form or another.

The reality is,When guys like yourself and Aaron,Simon,Stroudy,Chris Haldane,Eddie Kattenberg etc decided to have a go,You guys just packed up,Bit the bullet and went for it for which I for one have mucho respect,The sad fact with todays youth,Is they want it all laid out for them or theyre just not interested,Introducing more classes whatever they may be,Will not fix that,You can keep making classes until theres enough that everybody can win one and it won't change naff all.

The one thing I have learnt in all the years I have been involved is,The more talk there is of canning classes for whatever reason,The less likelyhood they will grow due to lack of confidence.

[RobGassit]

Hahahahaha,Haven't stopped laughing for a coupla days now.

Heres some truth for the "Whales and Dolphin" types amongst us,Back when the country WAS producing riders with what it took to run with the best in the world,The classes were,125GP,250 Production,F3, 600 production,F2,Senior production and F1,ALL those classes are currently available today in 1 form or another.

The reality is,When guys like yourself and Aaron,Simon,Stroudy,Chris Haldane,Eddie Kattenberg etc decided to have a go,You guys just packed up,Bit the bullet and went for it for which I for one have mucho respect,The sad fact with todays youth,Is they want it all laid out for them or theyre just not interested,Introducing more classes whatever they may be,Will not fix that,You can keep making classes until theres enough that everybody can win one and it won't change naff all.

The one thing I have learnt in all the years I have been involved is,The more talk there is of canning classes for whatever reason,The less likelyhood they will grow due to lack of confidence.

Precisely why post #5 phucked me off! And coming from a respected superbike rider made it worse. Imagine the entry fee for Superbikes and Supersport at a National round if no support classes turned up for a fang?
Anyway Billy, I read on facebook this week that they have found the next Kevin Schwantz, so I guess he will be skipping F3, ProTwin,125 GP, and any other shit us retards run downunder and heading directly overseas to MotoGp.

[CHOPPA]

Well I have to admit I was wrong about the F3 class, its obviously doing quite well and there certainly a lot of bikes that are eligible new and old.

I guess it all comes back to the point where you cant just keep trying to fit classes in to fit people really people just have to fit to what classes we have.

The restricted idea came from a safety perspective in that people who wanted to ride 600 straight from the 250s would have a stepping stone but after this discussion I think that if your a rider of very high caliber on a 250 then there is no reason why you cant just go to a normal 600 and if you are not quite at that caliber then the pro twins and f3 classes offer that next step

[CHOPPA]

Do you think these guys Aaron,Simon,Stroudy,Chris Haldane,Eddie Kattenberg would have had the same success in todays market?

[Drew]

Do you think these guys Aaron,Simon,Stroudy,Chris Haldane,Eddie Kattenberg would have had the same success in todays market?Crafar, yes.

[scott411]

Do you think these guys Aaron,Simon,Stroudy,Chris Haldane,Eddie Kattenberg would have had the same success in todays market?

Simon and Aaron won in australia pretty quickly, its that step that the ones after could not do, I think if you can win in australia and get some funding together then it may be possible,

the rides in asia are not there like they were in the early 90's,

[budda]

Do you think these guys Aaron,Simon,Stroudy,Chris Haldane,Eddie Kattenberg would have had the same success in todays market?

YUP - and not just them. And is that a telling comment, "todays market"

[Shaun Harris]

Do you think these guys Aaron,Simon,Stroudy,Chris Haldane,Eddie Kattenberg would have had the same success in todays market?



YES, if you are born a fighter you stay a fighter.






Todays market really has jack shit to do with it Sloan, the real problem lies in the mentallity of young folk these days. As you have said your self, the sponsor ship is still out there if you get off ya arse and think outside the square.






There is a shit load ( TO MANY CLASSES ACTUALLY) for young new riders already out there Buddy, lets PUSH PUSH PUSH for the 250 Production class to grow more with the very young.

Pro twins for the wealthier more ballsy younger riders, it give the HP experience ( Kinda) or/ and then superlight for the trick modified old bikes with full suspension or take the plunge and get on a 600 with full suspension.

Bloody good on ya for thinking for others though dude and putting your idea;s out there

[Robert Taylor]

You mean that exciting Nationals Class called SuperLite ?

Yes and it seriously needs renaming, maybe back to what it was. How many times has confusion occured when bikes have been called to the grid over the PA? Was that Superbike or Superlite they called?

[Robert Taylor]

Hahahahaha,Haven't stopped laughing for a coupla days now.

Heres some truth for the "Whales and Dolphin" types amongst us,Back when the country WAS producing riders with what it took to run with the best in the world,The classes were,125GP,250 Production,F3, 600 production,F2,Senior production and F1,ALL those classes are currently available today in 1 form or another.

The reality is,When guys like yourself and Aaron,Simon,Stroudy,Chris Haldane,Eddie Kattenberg etc decided to have a go,You guys just packed up,Bit the bullet and went for it for which I for one have mucho respect,The sad fact with todays youth,Is they want it all laid out for them or theyre just not interested,Introducing more classes whatever they may be,Will not fix that,You can keep making classes until theres enough that everybody can win one and it won't change naff all.

The one thing I have learnt in all the years I have been involved is,The more talk there is of canning classes for whatever reason,The less likelyhood they will grow due to lack of confidence.

Helen Clark caused a lot of this, shame on all those who voted for that nasty piece of pacifist socialist butch lesbian bitch

[CHOPPA]

YUP - and not just them. And is that a telling comment, "todays market"

Certainly todays market plays a big part. I think it would be irresponsible to convince a young guy that he should chase the dream of being a professional rider. The tides have changed and instead of "professional" riders negotiating how much they get paid they are negotiating how much they have to pay... I think in todays market a young guy should get education or do a trade and in there spare time put all their time into racing/riding/training first and foremost for enjoyment and then just grab every opportunity they can from there.

The cost of the bikes also contribute to "todays market". We used to be able to build a competitive WSBK in a garage in NZ but now you need a software company and computer engineers to go with it.

I see guys like Glen Allerton that have been at the front of ASBK for quite some time and he cant get a WSBK ride but a few OZZYS have been able to cut it recently.

I think it would be much harder for those guys to replicate their success in todays market. Not due to their ability but due to simple economics and logistics.

Another factor is age, unless your 18 and already winning GP races your path to MotoGP is highly unlikely.

How old were Simon and Aaron when they started smashing it on the international scene?

[Robert Taylor]

Well I have to admit I was wrong about the F3 class, its obviously doing quite well and there certainly a lot of bikes that are eligible new and old.

I guess it all comes back to the point where you cant just keep trying to fit classes in to fit people really people just have to fit to what classes we have.

The restricted idea came from a safety perspective in that people who wanted to ride 600 straight from the 250s would have a stepping stone but after this discussion I think that if your a rider of very high caliber on a 250 then there is no reason why you cant just go to a normal 600 and if you are not quite at that caliber then the pro twins and f3 classes offer that next step

You can rule Pro Twins out of that Chop because you learn pretty much bugger all about front forks due to the restrictions inherent in that class. With all due respect to those competing in that class they are racing bikes that were intended as no more than pleasant commuter bikes and the chassis geometry of most of the bikes in that class confirms same. An inbetween class should also be focused more heavily on learning full chassis set up skills ( with suitable chassis ) otherwise its like being a fish out of water when you go to 600s

That is the very point a lot of people are missing and your ideas have a lot of merit.

[Shaun Harris]

You can rule Pro Twins out of that Chop because you learn pretty much bugger all about front forks due to the restrictions inherent in that class. With all due respect to those competing in that class they are racing bikes that were intended as no more than pleasant commuter bikes and the chassis geometry of most of the bikes in that class confirms same. An inbetween class should also be focused more heavily on learning full chassis set up skills ( with suitable chassis ) otherwise its like being a fish out of water when you go to 600s

That is the very point a lot of people are missing and your ideas have a lot of merit.






But it does teach them the rules and race craft, so is a bloody good starting class in my opinion and is cheap with out having to spend say $5000-00 on god dam suspenion Robert, then when they want it changed they cannot get it changed as the disributor is CONTRACTED to a sellect few only

[CHOPPA]

You can rule Pro Twins out of that Chop because you learn pretty much bugger all about front forks due to the restrictions inherent in that class. With all due respect to those competing in that class they are racing bikes that were intended as no more than pleasant commuter bikes and the chassis geometry of most of the bikes in that class confirms same. An inbetween class should also be focused more heavily on learning full chassis set up skills ( with suitable chassis ) otherwise its like being a fish out of water when you go to 600s

That is the very point a lot of people are missing and your ideas have a lot of merit.


Yeah you are certainly on the same wave length but I get everyones point that are up in arms. Most people are just racing the Pro Twin class because thats the classes that they want to race due to ability or budget or passion for the bikes or whatever and like they say those reasons are no less important than the reasons I would suggest a different direction.

Any riding has gotta be good, even motorcross practice improves my road racing.

Supermoto has produced some pretty decent road racers lately! I think im gonna have a play this year

[Billy]

Anyway Billy, I read on facebook this week that they have found the next Kevin Schwantz, so I guess he will be skipping F3, ProTwin,125 GP, and any other shit us retards run downunder and heading directly overseas to MotoGp.

Yip.....Saw that,Sooooo does that make Lachlan Epis the next Marc Marquez ????? Cause he certainly had Kevs measure .....until the mysterious machine swap for the last race and hey presto!!!
I was real keen to impound that machine but the steward wouldn't,Can't think why.

[jellywrestler]

Wanganui and tri sereis classes are

F1
F2
F3/Superlight
Post Classic,
Classic
Super Motard
Bears
and sidecar,

really the only two that sound and look are the F1 and F2, so maybe its time you head back again,
yeah but a lot of people go there to watch their favourite class too.

[wayne]

well said billy,
swap bikes in that class ..............if they all the same,
how come riders say (after winning ) this bikes way faster than mine, i ride his bike and i get lap record

[jellywrestler]

Yes and it seriously needs renaming, maybe back to what it was. How many times has confusion occured when bikes have been called to the grid over the PA? Was that Superbike or Superlite they called?

so get ohlins to build hearing aid, then it would be sorted.

[mr bucketracer]

we should start with a 1000 with restricters to 25 hp for bucket racing then 40 for 125 racing and so on ..one bike does all:brick: i am so on to it lol

[Pumba]

we should start with a 1000 with restricters to 25 hp for bucket racing then 40 for 125 racing and so on ..one bike does all:brick: i am so on to it lol

I like that idea. 25 is still more than my bucket. It should fix those light young pricks that keep beating me on their 125 two strokes as well.

[Robert Taylor]

so get ohlins to build hearing aid, then it would be sorted.

Irrespective of taking the piss a lot of people complain about this very issue, the ones that need the hearing aids are those that are not listening when this problem is expressed

[Robert Taylor]

But it does teach them the rules and race craft, so is a bloody good starting class in my opinion and is cheap with out having to spend say $5000-00 on god dam suspenion Robert, then when they want it changed they cannot get it changed as the disributor is CONTRACTED to a sellect few only

Yes it does teach them race craft as do more junior classes but irrespective there has to be a credible and highly effective means of teaching setup skills if they want to and BEFORE they graduate further up. That is my whole point irrespective of cost or percieved cost, which doesnt have to be anything like 5k or the old chestnut that many keep justifying. I.e keeping everything as cheap as possible. In part its because of that very mentality that riders arrive in the 600 class without enough setup skills. This is not 1970, 1980, 1990 or even 2000, we are in 2014.

As you roundly refer to '' a select few'' my world of working on 6-7 Superbikes all at once is no picnic, in case it hadnt been noticed. Also in case it hadnt been noticed the cost of providing such a service is not insubstanial. Much moreso than many would blindly assume. There are other suspension tuners out there but how many do you see that are willing to really get stuck in? One of them arrived at the last round of the Nationals without his service truck arrogantly proclaiming that everything was sorted, which as it transpired was very much not the case. Whether he learns from that lesson is entirely his call.

But the manifest problems of being a suspension tuner and the many unjustified and off ''tall poppy'' perceptions is not what this thread is about

In previous threads I touched on the concept of offering suspension setup seminars specific to a one make class with bikes equipped with responsive suspension adjustments. Such a mentality could be applied within Choppas very fertile ideas.

[Shaun Harris]

we should start with a 1000 with restricters to 25 hp for bucket racing then 40 for 125 racing and so on ..one bike does all:brick: i am so on to it lol






Dam sharp cooky:Punk:

[Shaun Harris]

Yes it does teach them race craft as do more junior classes but irrespective there has to be a credible and highly effective means of teaching setup skills if they want to and BEFORE they graduate further up. That is my whole point irrespective of cost or percieved cost, which doesnt have to be anything like 5k or the old chestnut that many keep justifying. I.e keeping everything as cheap as possible. In part its because of that very mentality that riders arrive in the 600 class without enough setup skills. This is not 1970, 1980, 1990 or even 2000, we are in 2014.

As you roundly refer to '' a select few'' my world of working on 6-7 Superbikes all at once is no picnic, in case it hadnt been noticed. Also in case it hadnt been noticed the cost of providing such a service is not insubstanial. Much moreso than many would blindly assume. There are other suspension tuners out there but how many do you see that are willing to really get stuck in? One of them arrived at the last round of the Nationals without his service truck arrogantly proclaiming that everything was sorted, which as it transpired was very much not the case. Whether he learns from that lesson is entirely his call.

But the manifest problems of being a suspension tuner and the many unjustified and off ''tall poppy'' perceptions is not what this thread is about

In previous threads I touched on the concept of offering suspension setup seminars specific to a one make class with bikes equipped with responsive suspension adjustments. Such a mentality could be applied within Choppas very fertile ideas.







I was NOT knocking you nor your product at all Robert, Ohlins and yourself/Dennis are bloody great, I was just pointing out the obvious to whats involved or lacking in this area.

Teaching set up skills is a load of bollocks or a sales pitch, ( As it is you that always throws in how much costs are involved in your involvement) depending on how you want to read into it mate, the only way any one can learn set up skills is to turn the bloody clickers ( And write it down) and go for a ride and feel what the reaction is to the work just done.

I raced for 12 months using completly Standard suspension in my first season ( Adjustable but standard) then when I first got good race suspension I learned so much so quickly as I already had a good feel for standard stuff, and knew the difference between right and wrong all but instantly.

You know I am 100% behind good race suspension, but I am also in the real world when it comes down to what a young rider needs as I have actually been there done that, ( Paid for myself, not mum and dads money like these days) where as you are a trained technician with No race craft skills what so ever so do not really understand what a new rider needs from a riders point of view, you base your opinions on what you know re the quality of your product and other brands that you speak fairly about often.

Young riders simply need Track time to enlighten them selves about the game they are now playing, if they want to be fast serious racers, they will have there eyes and ears wide open and will see what it takes to be a Craig Shirriffs or a Sloan frost John ross etc etc.

Young riders need to learn
Rules
Race craft
Presentation
How to say please and thankyou

And how to communicate with either english or body language to explain what there bikes are doing, they are never going to learn those skills in a class room enviroment Doctor

As you were

[jellywrestler]

Irrespective of taking the piss a lot of people complain about this very issue, the ones that need the hearing aids are those that are not listening when this problem is expressed

yeah well i've been trying to shake the old F3 from the commentary over the last few years but haven't managed to, can't think of anyone that has mentioned it to me and have lately resigned to calling is as both. I still prefer the F3 title in reality but i do have a job to do.
at some meetings there are programmes, usually if you're confused you can see someone from another class up the line and work out what's out there.
If hearing the wrong thing and missing a race is going to confuse you then remind me not to get near you at an Orgy, there are somethings that ACC just wouldn't beleive...

[Shaun Harris]

yeah well i've been trying to shake the old F3 from the commentary over the last few years but haven't managed to, can't think of anyone that has mentioned it to me and have lately resigned to calling is as both. I still prefer the F3 title in reality but i do have a job to do.
at some meetings there are programmes, usually if you're confused you can see someone from another class up the line and work out what's out there.
If hearing the wrong thing and missing a race is going to confuse you then remind me not to get near you at an Orgy, there are somethings that ACC just wouldn't beleive...



You have been doing an exellent job I think mate, comes across quite well on ctas, and yea have noticed the odd F3 hickup

[budda]

Yes and it seriously needs renaming, maybe back to what it was. How many times has confusion occured when bikes have been called to the grid over the PA? Was that Superbike or Superlite they called?

Could always rename "Superbikes" - how about "Primadonna's with farcall idea about anyone else" Class
( apologies to the exceptions, there are quite a few of you )

[budda]

You can rule Pro Twins out of that Chop because you learn pretty much bugger all about front forks due to the restrictions inherent in that class. With all due respect to those competing in that class they are racing bikes that were intended as no more than pleasant commuter bikes and the chassis geometry of most of the bikes in that class confirms same. An inbetween class should also be focused more heavily on learning full chassis set up skills ( with suitable chassis ) otherwise its like being a fish out of water when you go to 600s

That is the very point a lot of people are missing and your ideas have a lot of merit.

Cant argue with a lot of your logic Doc ( but your politics is arse )

Why is it so difficult to understand that there IS and WILL be no Championship without Competitors.

There is EXACTLY nothing stopping these ideas happening at Club level RIGHT NOW ........
The CBR's could be in F3, 450/600's are already in there, even the odd F450 and all the 2 stroke mutis that people wanted

The only thing missing from the equation is the active participation of many riders with not always bad ideas from their Clubs meetings - if there is a "demand", Clubs will run Classes that are not up for National Titles ( viz the good ol' Kuntana Class, or the Repulse 400's )

Sorry guys, the "build it, and they will come" deal is a MOVIE, its PRETEND guys .......... when there is a good body of bikes all under the same rules, with proven and consistent Competitor numbers, lobby for a Champs Class then

Get along to your Club meetings, even better - get on the Committee and ORGANISE it .........

[Robert Taylor]

I was NOT knocking you nor your product at all Robert, Ohlins and yourself/Dennis are bloody great, I was just pointing out the obvious to whats involved or lacking in this area.

Teaching set up skills is a load of bollocks or a sales pitch, ( As it is you that always throws in how much costs are involved in your involvement) depending on how you want to read into it mate, the only way any one can learn set up skills is to turn the bloody clickers ( And write it down) and go for a ride and feel what the reaction is to the work just done.

I raced for 12 months using completly Standard suspension in my first season ( Adjustable but standard) then when I first got good race suspension I learned so much so quickly as I already had a good feel for standard stuff, and knew the difference between right and wrong all but instantly.

You know I am 100% behind good race suspension, but I am also in the real world when it comes down to what a young rider needs as I have actually been there done that, ( Paid for myself, not mum and dads money like these days) where as you are a trained technician with No race craft skills what so ever so do not really understand what a new rider needs from a riders point of view, you base your opinions on what you know re the quality of your product and other brands that you speak fairly about often.

Young riders simply need Track time to enlighten them selves about the game they are now playing, if they want to be fast serious racers, they will have there eyes and ears wide open and will see what it takes to be a Craig Shirriffs or a Sloan frost John ross etc etc.

Young riders need to learn
Rules
Race craft
Presentation
How to say please and thankyou

And how to communicate with either english or body language to explain what there bikes are doing, they are never going to learn those skills in a class room enviroment Doctor

As you were


1) I ride motorcycles too, not at race speed but I do very much understand the dynamics. Been riding since 1973 no less. So I totally reject your assertions

2) We have many riders that come to us to have their suspension reworked. We then spend time with them ''one to one'' at the conclusion of the job describing all the adjustments and physically showing the extremities of bad adjustments. That is very well recieved and they learn from it. So again I reject your assertions

[budda]

1) I ride motorcycles too, not at race speed but I do very much understand the dynamics. Been riding since 1973 no less. So I totally reject your assertions

2) We have many riders that come to us to have their suspension reworked. We then spend time with them ''one to one'' at the conclusion of the job describing all the adjustments and physically showing the extremities of bad adjustments. That is very well recieved and they learn from it. So again I reject your assertions

Play nicely boys - all the adjustability in the WORLD is no good until the Pilots arse is connected to his head, as you both know. TWICE as hard doing boingers and clickers for someone who cant explain what their bike is doing, even with the universal riders sign-language ........ can see what the GP guys are saying by their actions in the pits, eh ?

So you are BOTH ( cant believe I'm saying this !!!!!!! ) right ...........:eek5:

[Shaun Harris]

Play nicely boys - all the adjustability in the WORLD is no good until the Pilots arse is connected to his head, as you both know. TWICE as hard doing boingers and clickers for someone who cant explain what their bike is doing, even with the universal riders sign-language ........ can see what the GP guys are saying by their actions in the pits, eh ?

So you are BOTH ( cant believe I'm saying this !!!!!!! ) right ...........:eek5:








I thought I was ie the compliments I paid to Robert and Dennis with there skills and passion for suspension. Robert unfortunately just took my factuall statement personally

[Crasherfromwayback]

. My NSR300 will be done soon. 80hp 105kg what bike would you rather ride?

Gizza go Mr!

[Shaun Harris]

Gizza go Mr!







FUCK yes, me next please after you crash

[quickbuck]

Cant argue with a lot of your logic Doc ( but your politics is arse )

Why is it so difficult to understand that there IS and WILL be no Championship without Competitors.

There is EXACTLY nothing stopping these ideas happening at Club level RIGHT NOW ........
The CBR's could be in F3, 450/600's are already in there, even the odd F450 and all the 2 stroke mutis that people wanted

The only thing missing from the equation is the active participation of many riders with not always bad ideas from their Clubs meetings - if there is a "demand", Clubs will run Classes that are not up for National Titles ( viz the good ol' Kuntana Class, or the Repulse 400's )

Sorry guys, the "build it, and they will come" deal is a MOVIE, its PRETEND guys .......... when there is a good body of bikes all under the same rules, with proven and consistent Competitor numbers, lobby for a Champs Class then

Get along to your Club meetings, even better - get on the Committee and ORGANISE it .........You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to budda again.

[Crasherfromwayback]

FUCK yes, me next please after you crash

Be nothing left of it mate.

[Shaun Harris]

Be nothing left of it mate.





hahaha well I can still look at bits an pieces I guess

[Robert Taylor]

I thought I was ie the compliments I paid to Robert and Dennis with there skills and passion for suspension. Robert unfortunately just took my factuall statement personally

No, its just that I have no spare time and just have to get on with it.

[Robert Taylor]

Could always rename "Superbikes" - how about "Primadonna's with farcall idea about anyone else" Class
( apologies to the exceptions, there are quite a few of you )

Or what supplier will massage my ego and play dutch auctions? ( all classes )

[budda]

Or what supplier will massage my ego and play dutch auctions? ( all classes )

you been sipping from the naughty cup again Doc ????????????

[Robert Taylor]

you been sipping from the naughty cup again Doc ????????????

No, I just remembered that profit ( no matter how reasonable ) is considered evil

[budda]

No, I just remembered that profit ( no matter how reasonable ) is considered evil

Only by those who've never had to make it to feed their kids Sir .........:bye:

[jellywrestler]

No, I just remembered that profit ( no matter how reasonable ) is considered evil

all the profits in the bible are considered good bastards.

[Robert Taylor]

all the profits in the bible are considered good bastards.

Hard working protestants the lot of them

[budda]

Hard working protestants the lot of them

But the Bible was written by the Doolans Doc:clap: ( BOY, are we sidetracked NOW !!!!!! )

[RobGassit]

No, its just that I have no spare time and just have to get on with it.
i can verify that, I overheard his missus describing just that very thing! And then apparently,,,he needs a nap..

[richban]

Gizza go Mr!

Oh fuck no. Know one rubs themselves my bike but me. Hands off bitches.

First outing will be Vic track day then winter series. Along with the other one already out on track. It is a great package for sure. Very fat 2 stroke power in great chassis.

[Shaun Harris]

Oh fuck no. Know one rubs themselves my bike but me. Hands off bitches.

First outing will be Vic track day then winter series. Along with the other one already out on track. It is a great package for sure. Very fat 2 stroke power in great chassis.







Cool, I will see it on the 27th then, I am coming down to do some skids myself for a change

[richban]

Cool, I will see it on the 27th then, I am coming down to do some skids myself for a change

Yep there will be 2. Should be able to pick them out from the crowd. Dry clutch rattle and 2 stroke ding ding. Come say hi.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Oh fuck no. Know one rubs themselves my bike but me. Hands off bitches.

First outing will be Vic track day then winter series. Along with the other one already out on track. It is a great package for sure. Very fat 2 stroke power in great chassis.

LOl. Was only kidding mate. One thing I don't do is ride other peoples motorcycles. It's always when they shit themselves. Having ridden/raced a Honda RS250 briefly...I know how sweet you bike will be engine wise. Look forward to seeing it mate! HORN!!!

[Shaun Harris]

Yep there will be 2. Should be able to pick them out from the crowd. Dry clutch rattle and 2 stroke ding ding. Come say hi.







Sure will man

[mr bucketracer]

Yep there will be 2. Should be able to pick them out from the crowd. Dry clutch rattle and 2 stroke ding ding, engine in bits Come say hi in hospital.fix it :laugh:

[richban]

fix it :laugh:

Hang on a minute Mr. You are the guy tuning it. Where is the love.

[mr bucketracer]

Hang on a minute Mr. You are the guy tuning it. Where is the love.nitro on the dyno keeps everyone happy , then I get more work because its no good on the track..lol but do I want more work:brick:

[jasonu]

This IS a sport, its MEANT to be fun ....... if everybody put as much effort into their Superbikes as many of the BUCKETS guys do, we'd have the WSBK running scared

No need to thank me.....

[Deano]

As for cost the tyres for restricted class could be dramatically reduced due to the lack of HP. You cant make it any cheaper. Having a reliable new restricted 600 running 2 sets of tyres per weekend is as cheap as its gonna get in road racing

Restrict tyres to ONE set per weekend, as it is with Pro Twin. With only 70HP you're not going to need more than one set anyway.

Not that I think much of getting rid of F3/Pro Twins in any case mate.