Intiminators installed: I'm underwhelmed.

[chopperT]

I had a big worklist on my bike last weekend, 2010 KLR model bought new in 2012, now with 50,000km on it.

On the list was a Progressive 465 shock install, and a set of Ricor Intiminators for the front (Progressive springs already installed).

Everything installed fine, no bother at the rear, and an oilchange to 5wt on the fork as advised. I had a buddy help me set the sag (it's hard to measure by yourself!). We ended up at 27.5% front and rear.

After a couple of long rides now my impressions are of a nicely tied down rear, but the fork is all over the place. There seems to be very little rebound damping, and the brake dive is no better than previously. While stopped a big push down on the bars will see the front cycle a couple of times before settling, like a worn out auto shock.

Now maybe I have some work to do with oil grades or levels, but one question I need your experience with. Before installation of the intinimators I looked them over carefully. I understand the concept of how they operate, with the compression damping shim stack, the RIV piston, and the annular rebound port. The thing I couldn't quite figure though was that the compression shimstack did not completely mask the compression damping ports on the valve. Daylight was plainly visible through the ports, as if the OD of the shims was too small. (Only one of the (total)ten shims was of a large enough OD to mask the port, and it was installed at the top of the stack (of 5), so the ports were still open.

So the question are, How can the shimstack work effectively if there is effectively a permanent orifice that is open to compression and rebound flow, and how is that any better than orifice damping? OR, are the shims too small an OD and SHOULD they mask the ports?

Thoughts or experience welcome. Thanks.

[Padmei]

Hi there
I installed intimators on my KLR when I had it. i didn't notice any difference really. After so many people raving about them & telling me they were fantastic I didn't want to stand out like the dumb kid so went along with them & agreed. To be honest I don't think I ride well enough to notice differences in suspension however I did do a proper experiment re brake dive & found absolutely no difference.

http://www.klr650.net/forums/showthread.php?t=72228

[Woodman]

Installed them in my KLR (Gen1)about 4 years ago. Recently added progressive springs and a fork brace.

Brake dive was less, but not that substantial.

The front feels (is) more planted, but the best thing is under hard braking on rough surfaces like those stuttery bits on gravel roads. Way better.

At the end of the day KLRs have a terrible front end for riding fast, sorta like they are on another ride somewhere else, and tend to waggle all over the show. Just get used to it.

[chopperT]

Of course the KLR is never going to be an amazing dirtbike, but I was kind of happy with the Progressive springs and 15w fork oil. I can also accept that I
can't expect miracles from the intiminators, but this seems like a backwards step.

[hayd3n]

Of course the KLR is never going to be an amazing dirtbike, but I was kind of happy with the Progressive springs and 15w fork oil. I can also accept that I
can't expect miracles from the intiminators, but this seems like a backwards step.

considered mailing Robert taylor?

[GPS MAN]

Installed them in my KLR (Gen1)about 4 years ago. Recently added progressive springs and a fork brace.

Brake dive was less, but not that substantial.

The front feels (is) more planted, but the best thing is under hard braking on rough surfaces like those stuttery bits on gravel roads. Way better.

At the end of the day KLRs have a terrible front end for riding fast, sorta like they are on another ride somewhere else, and tend to waggle all over the show. Just get used to it.


I agree with Woodman 100%....note this will be a first!

[Night Falcon]

I agree with Woodman 100%....

I recall that picture Bart took of Woodman bottoming out the red devil after taking on that 6inch jump at the beach, kinda makes his point :cool:

[Underground]

I put Intiminators in the Africa Twin and they made a huge difference, a bit harsher but it eliminated the big brake dive issue and better control all round.
So, I thought I'd chuck some in the Dommie because they have real shit suspension.....they were quite alot better but still shit so I biffed the forks in the corner and fitted the KTM front end :yes:
What it seems is that Intiminators won't turn a sows ear into a silk purse but because the AT has far better quality suspension to start with than the Dommie they just do their bisiness a whole lot better in there.

[rogson]

I don't see how Intiminators can work. They don't require drilling-out the fixed orifice hole of the damping rod, so unlike cartridge forks (or Racetech emulators for that matter) they don't change/increase the original/primary damping orifice size on hard/sudden compression impacts. Intiminators try to get around this by using a lighter viscosity oil (less resistance to flow through the hole), but this is not remotely close to the effect of increasing the size orifice/hole the oil has to flow through. Also, by using a lower viscosity oil I question how they don't upset the rebound characteristic of the fork (which is sensitive to oil viscosity in fixed orifice damper rod type forks)

[chopperT]

Thanks for the responses so far. I am pretty happy with the spring rates as installed, there is no excessive preload, and the sag heights are spot on, besides the front (Progressive) springs are not new installs and have been performing satisfactorily.

I also realise that other products on the market have their advantages/benefits and their fans, and quite rightly too.

So before I go chasing my tail and spending hours and dollars trying to get a setup on these intiminators I want to get to the bottom of what I see as an anomaly with the arrangement of the shim stack. My research thus far leads me to believe that the shims used are (sourced from/the same as) Fox shock shims, which come in numerous different ODs to allow tuning of tapered shim stacks. I suspect, given the odd mix of shim ODs in my valves that the majority of shims used are of too small an OD, and are failing to mask the port, or act as the valve they are meant to, resulting in the apparent lack of damping and disappointing performance.

With the power of google on my side I have learned that Nordieboy from these parts used Fox shims to tune a set of intiminators. Any idea on the OD of the shims used?

[nzspokes]

I had a big worklist on my bike last weekend, 2010 KLR model bought new in 2012, now with 50,000km on it.

On the list was a Progressive 465 shock install, and a set of Ricor Intiminators for the front (Progressive springs already installed).

Everything installed fine, no bother at the rear, and an oilchange to 5wt on the fork as advised. I had a buddy help me set the sag (it's hard to measure by yourself!). We ended up at 27.5% front and rear.

After a couple of long rides now my impressions are of a nicely tied down rear, but the fork is all over the place. There seems to be very little rebound damping, and the brake dive is no better than previously. While stopped a big push down on the bars will see the front cycle a couple of times before settling, like a worn out auto shock.

Now maybe I have some work to do with oil grades or levels, but one question I need your experience with. Before installation of the intinimators I looked them over carefully. I understand the concept of how they operate, with the compression damping shim stack, the RIV piston, and the annular rebound port. The thing I couldn't quite figure though was that the compression shimstack did not completely mask the compression damping ports on the valve. Daylight was plainly visible through the ports, as if the OD of the shims was too small. (Only one of the (total)ten shims was of a large enough OD to mask the port, and it was installed at the top of the stack (of 5), so the ports were still open.

So the question are, How can the shimstack work effectively if there is effectively a permanent orifice that is open to compression and rebound flow, and how is that any better than orifice damping? OR, are the shims too small an OD and SHOULD they mask the ports?

Thoughts or experience welcome. Thanks.

I strongly suggest you talk to Robert Taylor before you hurt yourself. Not trying to be a prick but something is very wrong with your set up and I dont want to see you hurt because of it.

Of course the shims should cover the ports or its doing nothing. Unless it has a small bleed for some reason. Do these control compression and rebound?

[Padmei]

Have you read thru the ricor thread on klr650.net I'm sure they had loads of info on what you're supposed to do to get them optimum.

[pete376403]

At the moment 'm tossing up between a 685 piston or some of these http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Progressive-Monotube-Fork-Cartridge-Kit-Kawasaki-KLR-650-08-09-10-11-/360482426591?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&fits=Model%3AKLR650&hash=item53ee6d4edf&vxp=mtr

[Deano]

Who came up with the word intiminator and how ? I can understand emulator, which is what I have in my SV, but I can't even find anything like intiminate etc in my dictionary.

[chopperT]

I agree Mr. Taylor may indeed have sage words for me, but as I didn't purchase the product from him to begin with I would feel uncomfortable with asking for business knowledge and taking his time to answer my flaky "my KLR has shit suspension" questions. :)

All I really need to know is the correct OD/ID for the Ricor intiminator shims. (Yes it is a fecking stupid name).

[hayd3n]

I agree Mr. Taylor may indeed have sage words for me, but as I didn't purchase the product from him to begin with I would feel uncomfortable with asking for business knowledge and taking his time to answer my flaky "my KLR has shit suspension" questions. :)

All I really need to know is the correct OD/ID for the Ricor intiminator shims. (Yes it is a fecking stupid name).


To Be Honest , RT has always made time to answer any questions
i have given him,
i have spent maybe $200 in 4 years

(fork springs set to my weight and spacers )


But i received alot more for my money than i would ever receive trolling forums, or finding the best setup (to my Knowldge which is next to nothing) on fleabay,
or copying someone else's setup's

he rang my house to make sure i installed everything correctly
and was happy with my results.

I Believe RT would be disappointed if you didn't ask for his input or help

he puts great effort and skill into his workings,
for a pittance in return.

[James Deuce]

They should have called it a "Rambunctious Feckulator". I'd buy that and I don't even have a KLR.

[Woodman]

They have been called many things over the years.

Intimateanteaters, interiormunters, internalmentors, internationalminties.

To name a few

[Crisis management]

You need to listen to what Rogson said, (or talk to Mr Taylor) the intmidators are a cheap option, Racetech Emulators do actually work.

Disclaimer: I have no pratical knowledge of the KLR front end but I suspect it's no different from 99% of all other cheap suspension units.

[ducatijim]

Intiminators are a crock of shit.

I have a cheap DR650 set for sale but, very, very little use.

Swap for a beer.

[Robert Taylor]

I don't see how Intiminators can work. They don't require drilling-out the fixed orifice hole of the damping rod, so unlike cartridge forks (or Racetech emulators for that matter) they don't change/increase the original/primary damping orifice size on hard/sudden compression impacts. Intiminators try to get around this by using a lighter viscosity oil (less resistance to flow through the hole), but this is not remotely close to the effect of increasing the size orifice/hole the oil has to flow through. Also, by using a lower viscosity oil I question how they don't upset the rebound characteristic of the fork (which is sensitive to oil viscosity in fixed orifice damper rod type forks)

Yes you have basically nailed it to all of the above

About 3-4 years back we contacted Ricor, told them who we were and they kindly sent us some sets for test. Long experience has told me that with companies from North Mexico ( USA ) be very skeptical about their hype and general loudness. I really struggle to understand why so many Americans are like this.

They duly arrived and we installed in a donor bike SV650 that had well sorted Race Tech emulators and LINEAR WIND SPRINGS fitted. Stock undrilled damper rods were reinstalled. The things were terrible and just pushing on the forks you could feel and hear the Intiminators coming off their seats ( top of damper rods ) Performance was poor and nowhere near as good as the Emulators

We tested them without any pre-prejudice and I ended up sending a detailed report to Ricor that was straight to the point ( technically ) and devoid of any emotion etc. In that report I offered to return the Intiminators back to them. I have to this day never heard back from them again, they know only too well that we ''sprung'' their less than stellar product for what it really is. It amazes me how so many companies can sell flawed product but then there are so many gullible people out there as well that are prepared to believe the over the top hype that so many American companies poison the market with. These companies also prey on the ''self instal'' mentality and that often leads to really bad conclusions

Well fitted and calibrated Race Tech emulators will outperform Intiminators, no question. Progressive springs are also a 70s solution that wasnt a proper solution then and isnt now. If you have to fit these to gain some sort of bottoming out control / chassis control then its clear that the main culprits havent been identified:

1 ) Poor low speed compression damping control, or lack therof. This is caused by a number of reasons, many being uncontrolled bleed such as the damper rods not being fully in line with the centreline of the fork. Too much checkplate clearance in the bottom chamber etc

2) Lack of initial spring rate and pressure ( but then only increasing in force in a linear rather than overly progressive fashion )

3) Low oil level. There is inbuilt tunability of latter reaches of stroke progressivity in every fork anyway!!!! Simply raise or lower the oil level to tune latter reaches of stroke ''secondary trapped air spring compression ratio''. At least then youve got control over it rather than wasting money on a set of progressive springs that often will have too much progressivity.

[Woodman]

Yeah, well I am happy with how my front suspenders on the KLR are with progressive springs and intiminators.

Also have a Ricor rear shock and that is friggen even betterer.

Not looking for any improvement now.

[Robert Taylor]

Yeah, well I am happy with how my front suspenders on the KLR are with progressive springs and intiminators.

Also have a Ricor rear shock and that is friggen even betterer.

Not looking for any improvement now.

The best you have ridden is the best you know...................

The reality is it can be way better and if you think what you have got is as good as it gets you are well wide of the mark.

[chopperT]

Well, I really didn't mean to create a "this emulator is crap because..." thread. I'm sure enough in my own judgement to decide if what I have is crap.

What I was trying to determine is if the piece of crap that I have is behaving as craply as it should, or if due to assembly error I have a greater level of crapness than deserved.

RT, all points taken regarding hype/marketing, I'm a sucker, I fell for it, but I'm not chucking this stuff in the bin without making sure it is working (as craply) as it should :)

[chasio]

They should have called it a "Rambunctious Feckulator". I'd buy that and I don't even have a KLR.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to James Deuce again"

Pure gold.

[Robert Taylor]

Well, I really didn't mean to create a "this emulator is crap because..." thread. I'm sure enough in my own judgement to decide if what I have is crap.

What I was trying to determine is if the piece of crap that I have is behaving as craply as it should, or if due to assembly error I have a greater level of crapness than deserved.

RT, all points taken regarding hype/marketing, I'm a sucker, I fell for it, but I'm not chucking this stuff in the bin without making sure it is working (as craply) as it should :)

We did ''scientifically'' and very fairly test this product without any pre prejudice and frankly, an open mind. Had it worked significantly better than our own Race Tech emulator installations we would have approached Ricor to request becoming the NZ distributor, for what thats worth in this new world of ''scorched earth'' open slather internet marketing.

But the product fell well short of what anyone with knowledge / experience would in all fairness regard as at minimum acceptable performance. Especially when combined with largely discredited progressive springs that is a cocktail for highly unacceptable square edge bump compliance. If you inadvertently run off line whilst leaned over on a bumpy road the difference between falling off and staying on the bike will often be as simple as how well or otherwise the suspension is able to cope with sudden deflection velocity imparted to it. I wonder how many people have thought about that?

I don't care if anyone comes on here saying that their Intiminators and progressive spring combination is working okay. They will 100% not be working to an acceptable standard. If they rode the same bike with a carefully installed Race Tech emulator ( not the dodgy soft alloy chard distributing Thai copies ) and linear spring combination / oil level they would choose the Race Tech combination, hands down. Its like comparing Sue Bradford to Claudia Schiffer. One is drop dead ugly and noisy, the other is beautiful and with a reserved nature.

I have a real problem with the loudness and brashness of so many Americans ( although there are a few good ones ) and how it manifests itself in their over the top hype in marketing. In fact we could do ourselves a favour and also them by deporting that fat arrogant German Kim Ding Dong Dit straight to them

That I sent a detailed report to Ricor without any emotive statements and received no reply speaks volumes. Its hard to see how these lemons could be cost effectively modified to make them work to an acceptable standard without a lot of work that would inevitably involve using a dyno. The problem is that like emulators the fork springs hold them in place and you dyno all suspension units with the springs removed. The ''shim stacks'' are little better than thick washers and the effective clamping diameter is so big that its difficult to imagine how any HIGH SPEED FLOW MODULATING deflection will occur, aside from the device lifting off its seat. Which we heard as an audible ''clack'' independent of that ( over hyped ) inertia activated bypass bleed. Little better than fixed orifice damping. The outside edges of the ''shims'' ( or rather washers ) arguably ''kiss'' the one way check valve but its hard to imagine them sealing. Perhaps that's just as well because the flow restriction on high speed compressive movements is abundantly obvious.

Indeed to make damper rod type forks work properly is a whole lot more than about ''throwing in a set of Emulators ( or anything else oversold as ''the second coming of Christ '') and everything will then be a land of milk and honey! 99 times out of 100 the end result will fall well short off what is possible.

Most damper rods will not assemble straight into a set of forks, that means that the top hat ( sealing surface ) will not be perpendicular to the centreline through the fork. So how in the hell will an Intiminator with its rudimentary and totally flat bottom face seal against the top of the damper rod? In fairness it does have a secondary piston ring but it will struggle to seal when the damper rod wont allow it to seal flat and this will impart sidethrust onto the fork springs pressing upon it, causing even more rubbing against the inner walls of the fork tubes. That slowly wears off small chards of metal that always find their way into embedding themselves into the soft Teflon outer coating of the fork bushings, not good.

Unlike Emulators ( which are still a relatively crude device ) Intiminators have no means of positive centralisation into the top hat of the damper rod, by means of having a stepped down engagement lip. That further exacerbates the lack of positive sealing, offset to the centreline, uneven / inconsistent sealing and wear on its piston ring and causing unwanted extra side thrust on the springing.

As someone else said in but one word, they are a crock.

There are further very real improvements that can be made to damper rod forks such as making lower chamber checkplates that will deliver a more positive seal by reducing unwanted bypass bleed. Ricor have made a bandaid, but one that is neither sticky or protective.

Indeed it will be interesting longer term to see how much distress there is on the Intiminator piston rings and how much wear / galling there will be on the underside of the Intiminator and top of the damper rod.

We gave up trying to re-engineer these stupid bloody things to work. What it prompted us to do was to make a single sided ( at the time) CKT Emulator. It was basically an outer housing that positively screwed and locked into the top of the damper rod. Within that housing we installed a high flow Ohlins 25mm motocross compression piston with a proper modulating shim stack that would allow mass flow oil movements when required for. No jumping off its seat when hydraulic lock threatened! In its centre was an adjustable low speed compression by pass bleed. It worked fantastic and with Geoffrey Booth riding ( SV650 ) won every race of the VMCC winter series a few years back.

Those who are keen students of history will be familiar with the term ''those who are ignorant of history are condemned to repeat its mistakes'' In the 60s and 70s Ralph Nader was a watchdog of the automotive industry ( and probably others ) . We sure as hell need the likes of him again to protect consumers both from their own ignorance and the wild inflated claims of unscrupulous sellers.

As an adjunct to my ramblings above we have two sets of Intiminators here. We would rather crush them than re-sell them.( and technically they are not ours to sell anyway ) Integrity should always come before profit.

[Woodman]

Cool,

Have you ridden a KLR in anger with stock versus intiminator/progressive/forkbrace set up? (Just a question, not a windup) Night and day in my experience.

No I have not ridden a KLR with your setup, in fact I haven't heard of anyone who has had the work you describe done on a KLR.

Maybe I am odd, but I really enjoyed the couple of rides I had when my rear shock was blown. Awesome fun:banana:

[pete376403]

Robert, do you have any opinions on this product - http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Progressive-Monotube-Fork-Cartridge-Kit-Kawasaki-KLR-650-08-09-10-11-/360482426591?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item53ee6d4edf&vxp=mtr

[Night Falcon]

yeah man...what he said :scratch:

[Robert Taylor]

Cool,

Have you ridden a KLR in anger with stock versus intiminator/progressive/forkbrace set up? (Just a question, not a windup) Night and day in my experience.

No I have not ridden a KLR with your setup, in fact I haven't heard of anyone who has had the work you describe done on a KLR.

Maybe I am odd, but I really enjoyed the couple of rides I had when my rear shock was blown. Awesome fun:banana:

No, but the dynamics of damper rods are essentially similar in so many bikes. And we have a HUGE sampling range as we do this sort of work for a living. Indeed you are in a minority in thinking that what you have got is acceptable. It may be acceptable for you but I for one am not fooled for a moment, nor as it seems are so many others that are less than impressed

I cannot comment on the rear Ricor shocks as I have never seen one. But if we had the opportunity we would adjudge fairly and without pre-prejudice

[Robert Taylor]

At the moment 'm tossing up between a 685 piston or some of these http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Progressive-Monotube-Fork-Cartridge-Kit-Kawasaki-KLR-650-08-09-10-11-/360482426591?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&fits=Model%3AKLR650&hash=item53ee6d4edf&vxp=mtr

We have recently removed some of these out of Harley forks because they didn't work, the customer hated them

[Woodman]

No, but the dynamics of damper rods are essentially similar in so many bikes. And we have a HUGE sampling range as we do this sort of work for a living. Indeed you are in a minority in thinking that what you have got is acceptable. It may be acceptable for you but I for one am not fooled for a moment, nor as it seems are so many others that are less than impressed

I cannot comment on the rear Ricor shocks as I have never seen one. But if we had the opportunity we would adjudge fairly and without pre-prejudice

Chur,

As an aside, how do you approach suspension tuning for a dual purpose bike? where it can be ridden on the road either laden or not, to fast bumpy gravel to riverbeds to really gnarly stuff ridden fast or slow? My front end used to suffer terribly mainly off road when the tank was full to 27 litres to about the 17 litre mark, then be apalling in the last 5 or so litres, but is better now.

Sorry if getting a bit off topic.

[Robert Taylor]

chur,

as an aside, how do you approach suspension tuning for a dual purpose bike? Where it can be ridden on the road either laden or not, to fast bumpy gravel to riverbeds to really gnarly stuff ridden fast or slow? My front end used to suffer terribly mainly off road when the tank was full to 27 litres to about the 17 litre mark, then be apalling in the last 5 or so litres, but is better now.

Sorry if getting a bit off topic.

Briefly, experience and long accumulated knowledge. Plus using components with credible engineering! With many such bikes poor standard springing, preload and oil level calibration is only arguably 40 to 50% of the equation. 50-60% of the issue with such forks is very poor hydraulic control, too little or no low speed compression damping giving poor braking and chassis pitch control. But way way too much high speed compression damping. Intiminators and ( Im sorry ) overly Progressive springs will deliver more initial control but by skinning the cat in a very crude way akin to an ancient tribe engineering something. But what is really intimidating about them ( and those springs ) is that when you have longer stroke fork movements at high velocity the abrupt bump compliance is actually quite bad.

If you re-engineer all of the poor clearancing and alignment issues as detailed in my previous lengthy explanation you will often significantly reduce the amount of uncontrolled bleed. That alone will deliver both more control and composure and allow using a thinner viscosity oil. Which in turn is then less sensitive to atmospheric temperature shift. If you then combine with Emulators that deliver some half decent modicum of speed sensitive damping control you will end up with suspension that is far more forgiving of different loading and surface scenarios.

In the end event damper rod forks and the ''solutions'' offered are still effectively something that would be regarded as top shelf engineering circa 1940s. Cartridges are a much better solution but also there are cartridges and there are cartridges. So much bloody stuff is built by accountants and then hyped up by marketing people with about as much ethic and BS as real estate salesmen. If somethings cheap there are reasons that are less than music to the ears

[chopperT]

I pulled the intiminators out of the forks this morning, and stripped the valves down. Excuse the inch measurements, but hey you measure as it was built.

The packaging calls out the shim spec. as " 4x 0.012, 1x 0.015 "

I have all shims at 0.012" (10 shims total).

9 of the shims have an OD of 0.917", 1 has OD of 0.950".

Only the 0.950" shim completely covers the ID of the rebound check valve which acts as the seat for the shimstack. The ID of the rebound check valve is 0.920", so the smaller shims are leaving an annular gap, which is just a big orifice.

Added to that is the thicknesses are all at 0.012". None of the shims are 0.015". The difference in stiffness between a 0.012" and a 0.015" is significant (thickness cubed).

Somehow these shim packs have gotten all messed up.

I'm going to try to put together the correct shims, and give them another try. And hey if they are still bad then I'll call them junk and buy some Racetech emulators, but I want to see the Ricors work like they should first.

[chopperT]

Wow, I seem to have somehow missed that last page of posts. So in the seemingly likely event that even the reworked ricors turn out to be shite, what would I expect to pay for the RT emulators and a set of straight rate springs to drag the KLR fork into the 21st century?

[Woodman]

Lots of interesting stuff

Cheers for that:2thumbsup

[Robert Taylor]

Wow, I seem to have somehow missed that last page of posts. So in the seemingly likely event that even the reworked ricors turn out to be shite, what would I expect to pay for the RT emulators and a set of straight rate springs to drag the KLR fork into the 21st century?

Allow about $550 gst incl and the cost of a toll call to me so that I can elaborate 1 on 1 all of the ''devil in the detail'' points that will maximise the end results

[Robert Taylor]

I pulled the intiminators out of the forks this morning, and stripped the valves down. Excuse the inch measurements, but hey you measure as it was built.

The packaging calls out the shim spec. as " 4x 0.012, 1x 0.015 "

I have all shims at 0.012" (10 shims total).

9 of the shims have an OD of 0.917", 1 has OD of 0.950".

Only the 0.950" shim completely covers the ID of the rebound check valve which acts as the seat for the shimstack. The ID of the rebound check valve is 0.920", so the smaller shims are leaving an annular gap, which is just a big orifice.

Added to that is the thicknesses are all at 0.012". None of the shims are 0.015". The difference in stiffness between a 0.012" and a 0.015" is significant (thickness cubed).

Somehow these shim packs have gotten all messed up.

I'm going to try to put together the correct shims, and give them another try. And hey if they are still bad then I'll call them junk and buy some Racetech emulators, but I want to see the Ricors work like they should first.

You may get some result were you able to instal a small outer diameter clamping washer over the mounting stub but its restricted by the very diameter of the mounting stub which is already larger than a clamping diameter that would allow some credible and responsive shim stack deflection. Not what you want to hear but in my experience with these its really a clean sheet of paper. What we did in effect was to make the ultimate Emulator

[R650R]

Allow about $550 gst incl and the cost of a toll call to me so that I can elaborate 1 on 1 all of the ''devil in the detail'' points that will maximise the end results

About the same for a DR650??? I'm actually ok with the DR's sad suspension as I've never ridden anything better in this class of bike, always had sportsbikes.
Really do trust the stock front end on tarmac (touchwood) but does feel it could do better on occasional big hits off road. I tend to adjust my riding to the abilities of the bike to start with.
Worth doing anything to it?

[Robert Taylor]

About the same for a DR650??? I'm actually ok with the DR's sad suspension as I've never ridden anything better in this class of bike, always had sportsbikes.
Really do trust the stock front end on tarmac (touchwood) but does feel it could do better on occasional big hits off road. I tend to adjust my riding to the abilities of the bike to start with.
Worth doing anything to it?

Yes indeed, bear in mind thats the all up total of the Emulators and springs, add to that installation, machining and ( Ohlins ) oil.

We have done a lot of DR650s and the improvement is huge.

Race Tech also do a ''guts transplant'' complete shaft and piston assembly with a rebound adjuster for the rear shock. The rear end is just as dire, poor hydraulic control ( in both directions ) and for nearly everyone undersprung.

E-mail me to sales@kss.net.nz for a full costing / menu of options, your personal height and weight in your everyday clothes, loading scenarios etc.

These bikes can be made so much better

[R650R]

Yes indeed, bear in mind thats the all up total of the Emulators and springs, add to that installation, machining and ( Ohlins ) oil.

We have done a lot of DR650s and the improvement is huge.

Race Tech also do a ''guts transplant'' complete shaft and piston assembly with a rebound adjuster for the rear shock. The rear end is just as dire, poor hydraulic control ( in both directions ) and for nearly everyone undersprung.

E-mail me to sales@kss.net.nz for a full costing / menu of options, your personal height and weight in your everyday clothes, loading scenarios etc.

These bikes can be made so much better

Cheers. I see procycles in the USA are offering a similar rear shock thing from one of their suppliers too. The rear shock is probably the worst part of the setup alright

[Robert Taylor]

Cheers. I see procycles in the USA are offering a similar rear shock thing from one of their suppliers too. The rear shock is probably the worst part of the setup alright

Both ends are pretty dire. In terms of that guts transplant we offer several direct and indirect advantages, including

1) If you are not quite happy with the settings we are not on the other side of the world, we are readily accessible and backup the product. We dont hide behind the insulation of distance.

2) We plough our profits back into the local economy and gainfully employ local people

[Underground]

Nice plugs Robert, I think its a lucky accident that intiminaters give Africa Twin owners their moneys worth because I don't see it happening on other bikes, I know it's not the ultimate solution but as a quick cheap doityourself fix it worked for me.
And you're damned right about Ricor and comunication.....you'd think they were deaf and mute!
Oh, and my Robert Taylor rebuilt shock left me thinking that the front end deserved more than intiminators....how the hell did they ride these things in the Paris Dakar in more or less standard form?

[Padmei]

I got some feedback when when i questioned ricor shocks themselves about their intimators on klr.net They love them over there & have many many supporters. it all went a bit over my head so I kinda nodded as my eyes glazed over& left it as it was. The initial reason they made intimators for the KLR was that there was one in the workshop at the time so they just used the 1st bike they came across with non- flash suspension.


Now for a serious question. What would be the best front end for a big bike such as a KLR650, AT, or Airhead etc to grab & throw on? I know they conversions with DRZ's, YZs & dirtbike KTMs for but they're a bit lite for a big bohemoth so springs etc need replacing. What would you guys use?

[400sm]

I pulled the intiminators out of the forks this morning, and stripped the valves down. Excuse the inch measurements, but hey you measure as it was built.

The packaging calls out the shim spec. as " 4x 0.012, 1x 0.015 "

I have all shims at 0.012" (10 shims total).

9 of the shims have an OD of 0.917", 1 has OD of 0.950".

Only the 0.950" shim completely covers the ID of the rebound check valve which acts as the seat for the shimstack. The ID of the rebound check valve is 0.920", so the smaller shims are leaving an annular gap, which is just a big orifice.

Added to that is the thicknesses are all at 0.012". None of the shims are 0.015". The difference in stiffness between a 0.012" and a 0.015" is significant (thickness cubed).

Somehow these shim packs have gotten all messed up.

I'm going to try to put together the correct shims, and give them another try. And hey if they are still bad then I'll call them junk and buy some Racetech emulators, but I want to see the Ricors work like they should first.




Wow !

I like your perserverence and your can-do attitude.

You obviously have the smarts to succeed and implement a solution.

Please keep updating.

[Robert Taylor]

Wow !

I like your perserverence and your can-do attitude.

You obviously have the smarts to succeed and implement a solution.

Please keep updating.

The harsh reality ( and with all due respect to such admirable perserverance ) is there will be no really satisfactory conclusion without a lot of re-engineering. Any topline suspension manufacturer who are first preoccupied with function before sales would tell you that.
Fundamentally the shims cannot deflect and work like a proper shim stack because the ratio of their o.d to clamping diameter is nonsensical. There will only be some semblance of ''function'' at least in terms of ride height control because you are placing a restricting device at the top of the damping rod, INARGUABLY.
But its ''fortunate'' that many of damper rod forks real problems ( lots of uncontrolled bleed ) are not addressed with the Intiminator ''solution'' otherwise the abrupt bump / long stroke compliance would be even worse.
These are little more than a bandaid and sometimes they will get lucky, but the reality is the real issues are not tackled. And this is more about marketing, hype and perception. Sure theyve got shim stacks but prove to me how the bloody things work when the clamping ratio is so ridiculous ??????

[chopperT]

I pretty much have to agree with you Robert. Having seen the int.s in the flesh the "shimstack" is waaay to thick and too small an OD to deflect meaningfully. The load to create a bending moment at that arm length must be freaking huge. But, hey ho, I own the feckers right now and although I am (now)doubtful of their effectiveness I still want "solve" the issues with this pair. I have an email in to Ricor, So I'll wait to see what they have to say.

[400sm]

I pretty much have to agree with you Robert. Having seen the int.s in the flesh the "shimstack" is waaay to thick and too small an OD to deflect meaningfully. The load to create a bending moment at that arm length must be freaking huge. But, hey ho, I own the feckers right now and although I am (now)doubtful of their effectiveness I still want "solve" the issues with this pair. I have an email in to Ricor, So I'll wait to see what they have to say.


That's the spirit Mate!

[Robert Taylor]

I pretty much have to agree with you Robert. Having seen the int.s in the flesh the "shimstack" is waaay to thick and too small an OD to deflect meaningfully. The load to create a bending moment at that arm length must be freaking huge. But, hey ho, I own the feckers right now and although I am (now)doubtful of their effectiveness I still want "solve" the issues with this pair. I have an email in to Ricor, So I'll wait to see what they have to say.

That will be interesting but I wouldnt expect anything other than a very ''guarded'' answer.

[pritch]

They should have called it a "Rambunctious Feckulator". I'd buy that and I don't even have a KLR.

Gotta share the love... :-)

[pritch]

....how the hell did they ride these things in the Paris Dakar in more or less standard form?

I would be surprised if indeed Honda entered "more or less standard form" bikes in the Dakar. They might have looked standard but were likely built to GP standards.

KTM have recently advertised Dakar replica bikes and from memory the price is handsomely north of NZ$40,000. That price would suggest that apart from the obvious visual aspects of a Dakar bike, there aren't too many parts in common with a standard KTM?

[Robert Taylor]

I would be surprised if indeed Honda entered "more or less standard form" bikes in the Dakar. They might have looked standard but were likely built to GP standards.

KTM have recently advertised Dakar replica bikes and from memory the price is handsomely north of NZ$40,000. That price would suggest that apart from the obvious visual aspects of a Dakar bike, there aren't too many parts in common with a standard KTM?

And Replicas are more that in name. Just look at the Desmodesici for one. The silouhette is approximately the same. And of course the RZ500...

[Underground]

I would be surprised if indeed Honda entered "more or less standard form" bikes in the Dakar. They might have looked standard but were likely built to GP standards.

KTM have recently advertised Dakar replica bikes and from memory the price is handsomely north of NZ$40,000. That price would suggest that apart from the obvious visual aspects of a Dakar bike, there aren't too many parts in common with a standard KTM?

Not much that makes any real difference http://www.nightwings.org/Marathon/Marathon-650-1a-serie-uk.htm
they were a decent bike to start off with.
Back on topic...anyone want a set of intiminators to fit an NX650? :rolleyes: fits Transalps (not gauranteed to make any significant difference but at least they are easy to install/remove)

[400sm]

Installed them in my KLR (Gen1)about 4 years ago. Recently added progressive springs and a fork brace.

Brake dive was less, but not that substantial.

The front feels (is) more planted, but the best thing is under hard braking on rough surfaces like those stuttery bits on gravel roads. Way better.

At the end of the day KLRs have a terrible front end for riding fast, sorta like they are on another ride somewhere else, and tend to waggle all over the show. Just get used to it.



Interesting reading about KLR forks being too soft.


If I owned a KLR today, I would try all the 'bush' tricks that were the rage in the late 70's.

1. Put way fatter oil in, and add a bit more than standard.

2. Make up preload spacers for the springs.

3. Put valves in the fork caps and pump air into them.


The beauty about these changes, is they are cheap...and adjustable....and reversible.


However, in today's PC and conformist environment, I am guessing these mods would be frowned upon....:facepalm:

[Kickaha]

However, in today's PC and conformist environment, I am guessing these mods would be frowned upon....:facepalm:

Nothing to do with that, more the fact that they're shit mods which don't really work

[400sm]

Nothing to do with that, more the fact that they're shit mods which don't really work

That's interesting.

These mods definitely made a difference.


Would you care to share your experiences with them...

[Robert Taylor]

Interesting reading about KLR forks being too soft.


If I owned a KLR today, I would try all the 'bush' tricks that were the rage in the late 70's.

1. Put way fatter oil in, and add a bit more than standard.

2. Make up preload spacers for the springs.

3. Put valves in the fork caps and pump air into them.


The beauty about these changes, is they are cheap...and adjustable....and reversible.


However, in today's PC and conformist environment, I am guessing these mods would be frowned upon....:facepalm:

AND STUPID. ( But your call as to the degree of same )

1) ''Fatter oil'' all too often makes the damping action at low speed bleed lethargic / wooden / lazy. Moreover the heavier the viscosity of the oil the more it undesirably thickens as the barometer needle drops. On a frosty day such stone age mentality can make the forks borderline dangerous.

2) Overpreloading soft springs means you end up with too much initial force that exacerbates topping out, affecting rebound speed. And they are still soft springs at lower reaches of stroke. Correctly rated linear wind springs will require much less initial preload meaning less initial force and that makes the forks plusher and more responsive initially. But the added benefit is that because there is a steeper rise in spring force later in the stroke there is much greater chassis pitch control.

3) Theres already air in the forks and the secondary trapped air spring compression ratio can be readily manipulated by changing oil level. Why pre-pressurise the forks adding much more seal friction ( totally unsdesirable and anathema to credible suspension companies) and shortening fork seal life ( which it does ) Moreover if you take the example of pure air spring forks ( no steel coil springs ) they need to have ridiculously long top out springs. This to offset the fact that with air spring only to get the end force you require you as an undesirable by-product end up with rather too much start force, so that has to be counteracted by an opposing ( top out spring ) force. Even then the force curve slope of a well chosen steel coil spring setup cannot be completely emulated. We only have air forks in some current MX bikes for one reason, LOW COST. Irrespective of what the marketing nobs dress it all up as.

Its nothing whatsoever to do with whether you are PC or whatever. Personally I hate PC bullshit, with a vengeance. But, the 70s were 4 flipping decades ago, many of us have moved on and embraced the positive benefits of technology and dont accept mediocrity ( or less ) OR wild claims from manufacturers of throw in damping devices proclaimed as the second coming of Christ

Its well to look behind the marketing facades. This thread exists because of dissatisfaction with a purchase, not living up to the fantastic claims of a land of milk and honey. Its a shame many of these companies arent more readily legally taken to task.

[400sm]

Thanks Bob.

I am sure that KLR fork designs are 40 years old too.

What goes on inside the forks should be of no concern to the rider.
What the rider feels in his bike is what matters.

UNLESS....... the rider is easily intimidated by being told something is theoretically wrong with his suspension setup....

[Woodman]

Interesting reading about KLR forks being too soft.


If I owned a KLR today, I would try all the 'bush' tricks that were the rage in the late 70's.

1. Put way fatter oil in, and add a bit more than standard.

2. Make up preload spacers for the springs.

3. Put valves in the fork caps and pump air into them.


The beauty about these changes, is they are cheap...and adjustable....and reversible.


However, in today's PC and conformist environment, I am guessing these mods would be frowned upon....:facepalm:


yeah,tried a few of those, even put valve springs in there. Didn't work,but fun trying.

FYI, Intimate-manities worked in my opinion. Not an opinion by an engineer, but by the seat of my pants. I am happy. Yes yes emulators probarbly work better:yawn:

Another thing to remember is that the front end including brake of a gen1 KLR650 is the same as a klr250. Possibly stronger springs, but as flexible as all buggery.

[Robert Taylor]

Thanks Bob.

I am sure that KLR fork designs are 40 years old too.

What goes on inside the forks should be of no concern to the rider.
What the rider feels in his bike is what matters.

UNLESS....... the rider is easily intimidated by being told something is theoretically wrong with his suspension setup....

Trivialising the reality of such mediocrity makes it no less mediocre.

Perhaps you would like to express your discredited opinions directly to the most upper echelons of suspension technology and also to top level riders who get the best out of their suspension because they actually take the trouble to understand how it works. And always wish to improve. This is no less relevant for everyday riders, those that are receptive to understanding more about how everything functions will get more out of their machines.

You may be happy to stay at 1970s levels but that is not for everyone. 40 years or more on there is rather better understanding of suspension dynamics and therefore rather better solutions. But sadly there are also those seeking to make money out of clearly flawed product. And they damn well know that fact.

[400sm]

Hey, I am in no way endorsing intiminators.
Their description on this thread makes them unworkable.



Now branching onto Motor Racing..........my favourite subject.


Are you, or have you raced successfuly ?

[Robert Taylor]

Hey, I am in no way endorsing intiminators.
Their description on this thread makes them unworkable.



Now branching onto Motor Racing..........my favourite subject.


Are you, or have you raced successfuly ?

No, never raced because I would have been slow or maybe average. And frankly, no desire to do so. But that is no impediment whatsoever in my chosen field because Im pre-occupied with how things work and getting them to work for other people. Rather than diluting such technical focus by forever wanting to race myself

What ''flavour'' of motor racing? Because Im a fan myself, particularly Formula 1 through the 60s and 70s ( Yes that sounds hypocritical given my denigration of your 70s fork fixes! )

[400sm]

The reason I ask is attitudinal.
I suspected from your answers that you may not be an 'actual' racer.
This is important to me, so I can see 'where' you are coming from.

I am a hooligan racer of the highest order! So opinions are strong.

I was a circuit car racer for many decades. Hobby only, unfortunately.
However, I was a successful small fish in a medium sized pond.
The reason being, Car Setup.
In a world where people thought horsepower was the ONLY way to win,
I was playing with shocks and swaybars....with winning results...
So things that go up and down, have been of the utmost importance to me.

Nice to see you have a passion for cars also.

[nzspokes]

I pretty much have to agree with you Robert. Having seen the int.s in the flesh the "shimstack" is waaay to thick and too small an OD to deflect meaningfully. The load to create a bending moment at that arm length must be freaking huge. But, hey ho, I own the feckers right now and although I am (now)doubtful of their effectiveness I still want "solve" the issues with this pair. I have an email in to Ricor, So I'll wait to see what they have to say.

Good on you for giving it a shot. Hope it works for you.

[chopperT]

No surprise but I am still awaiting Ricor's reply. Help me out with the functioning of the RT emulators, they use a primary/low speed orifice, then the secondary/high speed valve opens (spring controlled) as I understand. So what size is the "typical" emulator primary orifice for dirt/ds/klr/dr bikes (very ballpark)?

[pete376403]

Robert, here is another product to consider.

These are specific to bike models, rather than one size fits all.

If I got a set in would you like to have a look at them and pass judgement?

http://www.motocd.com/mc/index.php/suspension-products/88-drop-in-damper-cartridge-2

[Robert Taylor]

No surprise but I am still awaiting Ricor's reply. Help me out with the functioning of the RT emulators, they use a primary/low speed orifice, then the secondary/high speed valve opens (spring controlled) as I understand. So what size is the "typical" emulator primary orifice for dirt/ds/klr/dr bikes (very ballpark)?

These vary a lot according to the size of the Emulator / application. ( Sorry Im not going to pull all the options apart ) The tuning variables include the size of these low speed bleed holes ( sometimes there are two ) the rate of the poppett springs ( 26, 40, 64 and 101 lb inch options ) and the preload on the poppett springs. If you wish to vary the bypass bleed holes the brass construction means you can simply soft solder the existing holes and start again. If you buy the dodgy Thai made copies they are soft alloy with a microscopic anodising that wears off quickly to the soft alloy and quickly deposits chards of metal flakes into your fork bushings. To the best of my knowledge there may be no poppett spring options either.

Unquestionably Race Tech Emulators are still a relatively crude device but at least they have a modicum of credibility by modulating flow and allowing enough flow at abrupt bump velocities. They also recognise that many damper rods have flow restriction, a FACT not even acknowldged by Ricor as part of their flawed and economical with the truth ''just instal them in the forks, easy as that'' marketing. This appeals to self installers who have largely no idea that the real source of many issues are not attended to. SMOKE AND MIRRORS.

Theres also no question about it, deflective shim stacks ( ones that actually work rather than marketing lip service ) do a much more efficient job of modulating flow than a poppett which exposes flow area more abruptly and a lot less progressively

[Robert Taylor]

Robert, here is another product to consider.

These are specific to bike models, rather than one size fits all.

If I got a set in would you like to have a look at them and pass judgement?

http://www.motocd.com/mc/index.php/suspension-products/88-drop-in-damper-cartridge-2

Now you are talking, a proper deflective modulating shim stack and a centralisation lip. Everything the Intiminator could have been and should have been. It still doesnt address that such devices arent positively locked / sealed onto the damper rod but its the best offering thus far.

The one we made with a proper piston and shim stacks screwed into the top of the damper rod but that is not really commercially viable. Also in the centre we had an adjustable by pass bleed adjuster ( like an airscrew in an old carburetor )

Congratultions to Cogent for making something that actually has technical credibility, undoubtedly although they wont be as good as well sorted cartridges these will work very well

[chopperT]

http://www.motocd.com/mc/index.php/latest-products/76-drop-in-damper-cartridge

I'm afraid to admit I have a set already ordered. :)

I'm still going to mess about with the int's however. My approach will be to drill a primary orifice through the centre stub, or maybe install a small grub screw to use like a carb jet. That would make the inevitable changes easier. Obviously the shims need reworking too, perhaps a much lighter stack, with a tapered washer to improve the clamping ratio, though the shim ID is pretty large already, or you could modify the RIV shroud to back up a spring, and forget about shims and use a poppet valve like an emulator. Which kind of sounds like reinventing the wheel....

[Kickaha]

Congratultions to Cogent for making something that actually has technical credibility, undoubtedly although they wont be as good as well sorted cartridges these will work very well

What about the Maxton stuff
http://www.maxtonsuspension.co.uk/files/gp20.htm
Can you do anything similar?

[bushy]

Robert, here is another product to consider.

These are specific to bike models, rather than one size fits all.

If I got a set in would you like to have a look at them and pass judgement?

http://www.motocd.com/mc/index.php/suspension-products/88-drop-in-damper-cartridge-2

I fitted the Cogent Dynamics DDCs along with .60straight springs into my DR recently and I have found the results to be very positive, although haven't given them a major workout yet.

I fitted a 7.5kG rear spring to the old girl and all up I am very happy with the setup. I am no expert but every time I ride the bike I can easily justify the cost.

[Robert Taylor]

http://www.motocd.com/mc/index.php/latest-products/76-drop-in-damper-cartridge

I'm afraid to admit I have a set already ordered. :)

I'm still going to mess about with the int's however. My approach will be to drill a primary orifice through the centre stub, or maybe install a small grub screw to use like a carb jet. That would make the inevitable changes easier. Obviously the shims need reworking too, perhaps a much lighter stack, with a tapered washer to improve the clamping ratio, though the shim ID is pretty large already, or you could modify the RIV shroud to back up a spring, and forget about shims and use a poppet valve like an emulator. Which kind of sounds like reinventing the wheel....

I cant see you being disappointed, for an American company Cogent Dynamics are all about substance and technical excellence rather than the infuriating habit the Yanks have about being loud and full of disingenuous hype.

I might order a set of these myself. They have though marketed these as a straight drop in to appease the ''lets keep it simple'' clients, when there are still very real gains to be had by fixing the tolerancing and poor alignment issues inherent in practically all damper rod forks. But at least they are making a product that centralises to the rod and has shim stacks that actually move and modulate!!!!!

Reading through the blurb its rather telling that Intiminators are only mentioned once with no elaboration. They have been rather more gracious than me by stopping short of explaining the obvious.

Its also of further immense credit to CD that they very clearly stated that these valves of theirs are only available for a very limited range of models that they are specifically developed and exhaustively tested for. Rather than trying to do for everything and doing most of it badly.

Clearly this company is controlled by engineers rather than sales people interested only in maximum sales and profit but ignorant of keeping product to a high standard of function. ( Nor caring as long as they make the sale )

As previously stated this thread exists because of the very real limitations of a product that has been made to sound like it delivers a land of milk and honey.

[NordieBoy]

Hey, I am in no way endorsing intiminators.
Their description on this thread makes them unworkable.

For something that is unworkable, they work surprisingly well.

[Robert Taylor]

What about the Maxton stuff
http://www.maxtonsuspension.co.uk/files/gp20.htm
Can you do anything similar?

I haven't seen a lot of it but Hayden Fitzgerald has bitter memories of it ( If indeed its possible for Hayden to be that way ) He was contracted a few years back to ride an R1 for a British team and was told that they were running Ohlins. When he arrived in the UK it wasn't the good Swedish product at all, it was Ron Maxtons stuff. He struggled with it all season. I think he builds some okay sidecar stuff but the bike stuff is pretty forgettable from what I have evidenced

[Robert Taylor]

For something that is unworkable, they work surprisingly well.

There are many of us that don't accept mediocrity. If you fitted some Race Tech Emulators ( properly fitted ) or these new CD valves it would be like booting out Sue Bradford from your house and then having Elle McPherson move in.

Undeniably these Intiminators are a total engineering balls up, its undefendable. We subjectively tested them against two very strong options with no pre prejudice

The reality is your forks could be made to work properly rather than what you think is okay.

[Kickaha]

I haven't seen a lot of it but Hayden Fitzgerald has bitter memories of it ( If indeed its possible for Hayden to be that way ) He was contracted a few years back to ride an R1 for a British team and was told that they were running Ohlins. When he arrived in the UK it wasn't the good Swedish product at all, it was Ron Maxtons stuff. He struggled with it all season. I think he builds some okay sidecar stuff but the bike stuff is pretty forgettable from what I have evidenced

Yes from what I have seen they seem to have a good reputation amonst the sidecar guys

I was looking at them as they seem to be the only place so far that I have seen do a cartridge conversion for the older smaller diameter forks, I thought it may be a better option than emulators

[Robert Taylor]

Yes from what I have seen they seem to have a good reputation amonst the sidecar guys

I was looking at them as they seem to be the only place so far that I have seen do a cartridge conversion for the older smaller diameter forks, I thought it may be a better option than emulators

We have Andreani 20mm cartridge conversion kits for such bikes and the price is also really good

[400sm]

For something that is unworkable, they work surprisingly well.

I see on their site, RICOR sell 39mm AND 41mm ints for KLR 650.

Is it possible that Chopper T has received the wrong ones ?... ie. for another model...

I have only seen one online review by a KLR 650 owner, and he loved them.

[Robert Taylor]

Is it possible that Chopper T has received the wrong ones ?... ie. for another model...

I have only seen one online review by a KLR 650 owner, and he loved them.

If you look at the damn things they are ALL wrong.

[400sm]

If you look at the damn things they are ALL wrong.


After 3 mins of research, I see RICOR sells 39mm AND 41mm Intiminators for the KLR. This MITE be the problem.

If CT has '41mm' id forks and was supplied the 39mm ints, that would indeed explain his scepticism.

I think Chopper t has to post precise measurements and serial numbers from his Ints and forks, for us to solve this wee dilemma.



....whether they will work or not, is a separate matter.....

[Woodman]

I see on their site, RICOR sell 39mm AND 41mm ints for KLR 650.

Is it possible that Chopper T has received the wrong ones ?... ie. for another model...

I have only seen one online review by a KLR 650 owner, and he loved them.

Their are two KLR650 owners on this thread that say they liked them.

[Woodman]

If you look at the damn things they are ALL wrong.

Rotary engines don't have pistons or conrods but they still work.

just messin with ya.

[chopperT]

Not a bad suggestion 400sm, but not the case. The packaging is marked as 41mm, P/N BW 041 20 1001 DAK, for KLR650 08+, and the OD of the valves is a shade under 34mm (41mm OD fork tubes - 34mm valve = 7mm, and the valve is a loose fit using the seal ring to centralise, so say 6mm/2 = 3mm wall thickness of the fork tube. Sounds about right. (As opposed to 39-34=4-1=3/2=1.5mm which would be a bit light for a fork tube).

On a more positive note after a proper gravel bash today the Progressive 465 shock is awesome. The back end just stayed totally hooked up, where before it would stutter and crash over washboards. However the front now feels desperate (back to Progressive springs and 15w oil), so I'm really keen to try the Cogent DDCs and sraight rate springs.

And perhaps no surprise, but still no reply from Ricor.

[400sm]

[QUOTE=Woodman;1130712344]Their are two KLR650 owners................................. on this thread that say they liked them.[/QUt parts are fi

[Robert Taylor]

I see RICOR sells 39mm AND 41mm Intiminators for the KLR. This MITE be the problem.

If CT has '41mm' id forks and was supplied the 39mm ints, that would indeed explain his scepticism.

I think Chopper t has to post precise measurements and serial numbers from his Ints and forks, for us to solve this wee dilemma.



....whether they will work or not, is a separate matter.....

Its more fundamental than that. Irrespective of whether they are 39 or 41mm the ratio of shim stack o.d to clamping diameter is totally unworkable. The through bolt diameter is also large and that in itself sets a practical limit of whats possible without major re-engineering. I had an Ohlins technician here and showed them to him, he just shook his head in disbelief.

The only reason that they will appear to work on say KLR650 is that at low speed velocities they provide a flow restriction to stop the forks blowing through their stroke. At high velocities the things will hop off the top of the damper rod and bleed some oil that way.

In anyones terms ( those that have an eye for good engineering ) that is totally Heath Robinson

Having just said all of this I have just worked out how you could make these stupid things work. I will sketch it and post through next week

[Robert Taylor]

Their are two KLR650 owners on this thread that say they liked them.

And there are probably at least two million or more people in the communist paradise of North Korea who think that their leader Ding Dong Dit is God.................

[400sm]

Not a bad suggestion 400sm, but not the case. The packaging is marked as 41mm, P/N BW 041 20 1001 DAK, for KLR650 08+, and the OD of the valves is a shade under 34mm (41mm OD fork tubes - 34mm valve = 7mm, and the valve is a loose fit using the seal ring to centralise, so say 6mm/2 = 3mm wall thickness of the fork tube. Sounds about right. (As opposed to 39-34=4-1=3/2=1.5mm which would be a bit light for a fork tube).

On a more positive note after a proper gravel bash today the Progressive 465 shock is awesome. The back end just stayed totally hooked up, where before it would stutter and crash over washboards. However the front now feels desperate (back to Progressive springs and 15w oil), so I'm really keen to try the Cogent DDCs and sraight rate springs.

And perhaps no surprise, but still no reply from Ricor.



Hmmm........ the wrong valves are in the packaging ?


What is the id of your forks, please ?

[400sm]

My bush logic suggests that the units should be a snug fit, to avoid oil bleeding between the fork wall and the seal ?

[Robert Taylor]

Hmmm........ the wrong valves are in the packaging ?


What is the id of your forks, please ?

So have you viewed firsthand the ratio of shim diameter to clamping? And if so can you explain how there is enough deflection? If any?

There is no credibility here, the way these things ''function'' is fundamentally flawed and criminal.

[chopperT]

They use a seal ring in a groove on the OD to centralise and seal the valve, so the valve itself is a loose fit without the ring.

I understand that many people have reported good results with intiminators, but after installing these the fork was so shocking (!):eek: that I had to question them. Now I still don't know for sure what the shim configuration should be, but given the very real shortcomings of the design , as pointed out by Robert, I would be really surprised if they worked even when configured correctly

[NordieBoy]

My bush logic suggests that the units should be a snug fit, to avoid oil bleeding between the fork wall and the seal ?

They got me to measure my TT350 forks very carefully before they would suggest which Intiminator to run.

The forks are 41mm OD but a different wall thickness to the KLR.

Both bikes I'm running them on have vastly reduced brake dive.
The '01 DR is using stock shims and the '86 TT I played with for a few weeks before settling on the shims it's been running for the last few years.

Off road, I'd prefer Emulators as without brake dive, you can't preload the front to bounce it up over logs.
But for my normal adventuring, Intiminators are a hell of a lot better than stock.

[400sm]

So have you viewed firsthand the ratio of shim diameter to clamping? And if so can you explain how there is enough deflection? If any?

There is no credibility here, the way these things ''function'' is fundamentally flawed and criminal.



No. I just want to make sure that it is the correct part.

To chopper: On ricor website, the 41mm and 39mm look very different.

Could you confirm that your valves look correct. Ta.

[husaberg]

I haven't seen a lot of it but Hayden Fitzgerald has bitter memories of it ( If indeed its possible for Hayden to be that way ) He was contracted a few years back to ride an R1 for a British team and was told that they were running Ohlins. When he arrived in the UK it wasn't the good Swedish product at all, it was Ron Maxtons stuff. He struggled with it all season. I think he builds some okay sidecar stuff but the bike stuff is pretty forgettable from what I have evidenced

Wow Robert
It has to be said putting aside Haydens bitter memories...... Rons suspension has won a whole whole lots of IOM's............
have you had a look at his stuff recently......i posted a link in another thread for you...


I looked arround to see if Ron Williams (Maxton)was still doing the modified Konis because One i always wondered what was in them.
and two because i just wondered if it could offer an solution that suited Scott's budget.

What i found was Ron's company is making it seems all their own stuff now.

i seen this in the blurb which pretty much matches what Robert had said re springs and gubins...

Suspension doesn't have a huge effect on handling when your bike is leant over. "Think about it," says Ron. "When a bike hits a bump leant over, the forces aren't barely going through the suspension. What you are feeling is more to do with chassis stiffness and tyre construction.

Compression damping control is far more important than rebound for track riding.

Progressive or dual rate springs don't really work, mainly because they don't rebound back in a linear manner. Variable compression damping is much more effective. The benefit that most people who fit them feel is down to the original springs they replaced being too soft in the first place.

They valve some nice shinny looking kit.
http://www.maxtonsuspension.co.uk/files/products.htm

Prices range from £440 for a pair of twin shocks to £710 for the top-spec GP7. Fork conversions cost between £290 and £915 for the top-spec GP25 cartridge.



Yes from what I have seen they seem to have a good reputation amonst the sidecar guys

I was looking at them as they seem to be the only place so far that I have seen do a cartridge conversion for the older smaller diameter forks, I thought it may be a better option than emulators
There is another company doing small emulators as well (Add later)

http://www.suspensionshop.org/promax-pd-valves.php

http://www.suspensionshop.org/images/Promax-PD-Valve-S-320x224.jpg

PD Fork Valves are available in the following sizes for Motorcycles with Conventional Forks:

OD 17.5 mm
OD 24.8 mm
OD 26.5 mm
OD 29.0 mm
OD 31.0 mm
OD 33.0 mm
OD 36.0 mm
OD 43.0 mm

they sell other stuff as well
inc pistons and shims
http://www.suspensionshop.org/promax-shockpistonkits.php#SHOCKPISTONKITS

Yes they are likely neither the same quality of Ohlins or Racetech gold valves..........

[400sm]

After spending another 10 mins on the net reading intiminator forums, l have inferred that the seal needs to contact the tube walls.

[Robert Taylor]

After spending another 10 mins on the net reading intiminator forums, l have inferred that the seal needs to contact the tube walls.

Have any of the nuclear physicists that habitate these accursed forums related to looking down the bore of forks right after the springs are removed and the oil is drained? And from a sampling of MANY damper rod forks?

You will find that in many instances ( likely 80% or greater ) the damper rod doesnt assemble totally concentrically through the centreline of the fork. It will always be cocked to one side. That then means by implication that the top hat piston ring will not seal concentrically and will wear unevenly. Uncontrolled bleed will happen at this part of the assembly.

Moreover it then means that the top face of the damper rod will not be perpendicular to the centreline of the fork. So any restriction device ( Intiminators ) or any restriction device with some credible degree of high speed damping modulation ( Race Tech emulator and the Cogent Dynamics offering ) wont have a hope in hell of sitting squarely on top of the damping rod and therefore centralising properly and sealing properly. As the fork springs ''clamp'' the restriction device in place it then by implication means that because the seating surfaces arent flat the sidethrust applied on the springs is further exacerbated. They will rub yet harder on the internal walls of the fork tubes and more readily shaving away chards of metal flakes that always embed themselves into the teflon outer coatings of the fork bushings.

The cheaper and therefore less polish finished and edge finished springs that you purchase the worse this issue becomes.

You get what you pay for and the gullible are at the mercy of the hyped up bullshit that especially American companies are notorious for.

A little honesty wouldnt go amiss, but of course the commercial world doesnt always reward total honesty. Also, people will only hear what they want to hear.

[Robert Taylor]

After spending another 10 mins on the net reading intiminator forums, l have inferred that the seal needs to contact the tube walls.

Yes, but without a means of positive centralisation and the poor alignment issues with damper rods how is that going to happen through the full 360 degrees?

[Robert Taylor]

Wow Robert
It has to be said putting aside Haydens bitter memories...... Rons suspension has won a whole whole lots of IOM's............
have you had a look at his stuff recently......i posted a link in another thread for you...





There is another company doing small emulators as well (Add later)

http://www.suspensionshop.org/promax-pd-valves.php

http://www.suspensionshop.org/images/Promax-PD-Valve-S-320x224.jpg

PD Fork Valves are available in the following sizes for Motorcycles with Conventional Forks:

OD 17.5 mm
OD 24.8 mm
OD 26.5 mm
OD 29.0 mm
OD 31.0 mm
OD 33.0 mm
OD 36.0 mm
OD 43.0 mm

they sell other stuff as well
inc pistons and shims
http://www.suspensionshop.org/promax-shockpistonkits.php#SHOCKPISTONKITS

Yes they are likely neither the same quality of Ohlins or Racetech gold valves..........

Shaun Harris won his class on that very dangerous circuit a few years back. He ran a stock standard rear Ohlins shock at that time because much like Pukekohe circuit it is a fast road course that favours a setup much closer to a road bike than what is required on a proper closed course and highly technical road race circuit. Had Shaun then raced that bike on the many proper circuits on the UK mainland it then would have required individualised setup changes for each circuit. That is where a true pedigree brand of suspension stands out. And with all respect to the Maxton product that is where their limitations become very apparent

[Robert Taylor]

Wow Robert
It has to be said putting aside Haydens bitter memories...... Rons suspension has won a whole whole lots of IOM's............
have you had a look at his stuff recently......i posted a link in another thread for you...





There is another company doing small emulators as well (Add later)

http://www.suspensionshop.org/promax-pd-valves.php

http://www.suspensionshop.org/images/Promax-PD-Valve-S-320x224.jpg

PD Fork Valves are available in the following sizes for Motorcycles with Conventional Forks:

OD 17.5 mm
OD 24.8 mm
OD 26.5 mm
OD 29.0 mm
OD 31.0 mm
OD 33.0 mm
OD 36.0 mm
OD 43.0 mm

they sell other stuff as well
inc pistons and shims
http://www.suspensionshop.org/promax-shockpistonkits.php#SHOCKPISTONKITS

Yes they are likely neither the same quality of Ohlins or Racetech gold valves..........

We have removed more than a few of those Thai made ''fork valves''. They wear through the wafer thin anodising very quickly to the soft alloy that then wears off, again contaminating the fork bushings. Its a totally unsuitable material in such an application. There doesnt appear to be any ready availability of alternative poppett spring rates ( thats an essential tuning option ) and you can by no means as easily change the bypass bleed hole size.

Cheap, nasty. Its like comparing a cut price weedeater from Mitre 10 to a professional level Stihl or Husqvarna. You get what you pay for and the cheap rubbish creates unwelcome and ultimately costly issues

[pete-blen]

I made my own for the XR250.... They did work but the spring
for the rebound damping was 2 strong & slowed the return to much..
compression damping was easy to get sort of right...As spring preload could be changed..
finding springs in the right dia / strength for the retun damping was not so easy...



http://imageshack.com/a/img812/2962/ssa41924.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img233/8521/ssa41922.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img140/7093/valvef.jpg

[Night Falcon]

On my bucket list for my new bike is to have the suspension professionally tuned but ride it a bit before so I can then judge the improvement- which people say will be like night and day. Unsure what the bike will be at this stage but its likely to be a KTM 350 - 500 which are pretty good to start with.

[Robert Taylor]

On my bucket list for my new bike is to have the suspension professionally tuned but ride it a bit before so I can then judge the improvement- which people say will be like night and day. Unsure what the bike will be at this stage but its likely to be a KTM 350 - 500 which are pretty good to start with.

Not if they have 4CS forks!

[400sm]

The evidence dictates that intiminators DO work to the satisfaction of their owners,
ChopperT has an anomaly on his hands . . . the cause yet to be determined.

[Robert Taylor]

The evidence dictates that intiminators DO work to the satisfaction of their owners,
ChopperT has an anomaly on his hands . . . the cause yet to be determined.

So how many riders in total have you scientifically surveyed?

[400sm]

Please survey the satisfied respondents to this thread.

Are you watching puke ?

[Robert Taylor]

Please survey the satisfied respondents to this thread.

Are you watching puke ?

Thats hardly conclusive by any stretch of the imagination!

No, working. Sad but true, I need to generate more income to do my bit to keep paying out all of the hungry Iwi's..........

Ive worked out a fix for these things, to follow through the week.

[400sm]

Plenty of action surprisingly!

There's a youtube clip of a klr owner's before and after fork action. Def a huge difference notwithstanding the tec issues you have pointed out.

[Kickaha]

The evidence dictates that intiminators DO work to the satisfaction of their owners,.
Some people are easily satisfied, that doesn't mean they're working as well as they could be

[400sm]

What I'm saying is that choppers should work as good as they are meant to.
His are not working at all.

[400sm]

Put "klr 650 intiminators" into youtube. Watch the 1min 17sec vid.

[Woodman]

Some people are easily satisfied, that doesn't mean they're working as well as they could be

Correct, and the thread was about KLRs which have an apalling frontend to start with and yes RT is correct in that he could make a klr better than with intiminators (not sure if he has though), but my Ricor front and rear have made a night and day change for the better. End of.

[nzspokes]

Ive worked out a fix for these things, to follow through the week.

I get what you mean with the damper rods being off line, I have seen that in the past. It would load the hell out of a valve sitting on top of it and if its not designed for those kind of loads it will cause damage.

41mm is a big piston. Makes one wonder how they cocked it up so badly. I would have thought with that much size it would not have been hard to get right.

Would it be a huge job to retro fit a cartridge from another fork? Or just fit a KX fork( or something along those lines). My KDX im halfway through a KX conversion which I think will owe me $250.

[Woodman]

I get what you mean with the damper rods being off line, I have seen that in the past. It would load the hell out of a valve sitting on top of it and if its not designed for those kind of loads it will cause damage.

41mm is a big piston. Makes one wonder how they cocked it up so badly. I would have thought with that much size it would not have been hard to get right.

Would it be a huge job to retro fit a cartridge from another fork? Or just fit a KX fork( or something along those lines). My KDX im halfway through a KX conversion which I think will owe me $250.

Putting USD forks or beefier convetionals on KLRs is a pretty common mod. Probarbly would have done mine eventually,but am going to move it on shortly.

[GPS MAN]

Where you going~Woodman???????????????????????

Not giving up on the KLR I hope??????

[400sm]

Hi choppet T.

According to all the intiminator diagrams on google images, the seal must contact the inner fork wall to make it work.
You identified a diameter discrepancy in your posts.

Are you saying that the seal OD is smaller than the fork ID ?

[400sm]

I get what you mean with the damper rods being off line, I have seen that in the past. It would load the hell out of a valve sitting on top of it and if its not designed for those kind of loads it will cause damage.

41mm is a big piston. Makes one wonder how they cocked it up so badly. I would have thought with that much size it would not have been hard to get right.

Would it be a huge job to retro fit a cartridge from another fork? Or just fit a KX fork( or something along those lines). My KDX im halfway through a KX conversion which I think will owe me $250.

41mm is the OD of the fork tube l think.

[NordieBoy]

Just reading Don Richardson's biography.

He sounds very much like an American Robert Taylor :whistle:

[Woodman]

Where you going~Woodman???????????????????????

Not giving up on the KLR I hope??????

Not going anywhere, but the KLR is just sitting in the shed leaking oil from its fork seals since the dustybutt and I am really enjoying the GS. Hate to see a bike sitting unused.

This thread may explain why it constantly blows fork seals.

[chopperT]

Hi choppet T.

According to all the intiminator diagrams on google images, the seal must contact the inner fork wall to make it work.
You identified a diameter discrepancy in your posts.

Are you saying that the seal OD is smaller than the fork ID ?

The OD of the valve is a tad under 34mm. The spring and spacers are also 34mm. Installation of the valves required some patience to get the sealring started in the bore, they were then a nice sliding fit. I am confident that the valve bodies are the correct size.

The diameter discrepancy identified was in relation to the shims, and their seating/sealing surface, which is not related to the OD of the valve.

And yes, 41mm is the OD of the tube.

[NordieBoy]

Not going anywhere, but the KLR is just sitting in the shed leaking oil from its fork seals since the dustybutt and I am really enjoying the GS. Hate to see a bike sitting unused.

This thread may explain why it constantly blows fork seals.

125,000km on the DR fork seals...

I think there's some oil in there still...

[marks]

An interesting read

A year or two ago I spent $250 on intiminators and turned crappy klr suspension into what felt to me to be less crappy suspension

At $250 I was prepared to 'take a punt'. I thought (and still think) the improvement was worth the cost

I have no idea how much better properly modified suspension could be but I had assumed that getting someone like Robert Taylor to modify my suspension would be a $500-$1000 exercise

Without knowing how great the improvement would be its hard to get over the hurdle of spending 2 or 3 times the cost with an uncertain outcome.

[Padmei]

I have to add if you really are that into good suspension why get a KLR? Great bikes but really if you want good handling why not just buy something more expensive to begin with. Sows ear etc

[400sm]

The OD of the valve is a tad under 34mm. The spring and spacers are also 34mm. Installation of the valves required some patience to get the sealring started in the bore, they were then a nice sliding fit. I am confident that the valve bodies are the correct size.

The diameter discrepancy identified was in relation to the shims, and their seating/sealing surface, which is not related to the OD of the valve.

And yes, 41mm is the OD of the tube.

Sweet.
Good luck with your endeavour.

[pete376403]

So you get a 690 for the better suspension, but it costs $6K or more extra more . Then you spend even more getting the things that the KLR has - bigger fuel tank, a better seat, luggage carrying capacity. There maybe a trade off in reliability (if the KTM repair threads on advrider are anything to go by)

Check out night falcons thread on advrider about modifying a 690 to get the above. http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=580492&page=1 . I'd guesstimate that to do the same on a new 690 today isn't going to leave much change from $22- 23K (edit after seeing the list price of the 690 is $17995 at TSS)

Yes I'm happy with the KLR despite it's obvious shortcomings , which could be (mostly) corrected for a lot less

[nzspokes]

And yes, 41mm is the OD of the tube.

I think we have found the source of your problem.

[pete376403]

why? 41mm OD (outside diameter) is going to be about 34-35mm ID

[chopperT]

I like the KLR because I can develop the bike as I develop as a rider. Since I started riding 5yrs ago I've covered 100k, 25k on a Vespa (don't, I know),
and then the balance on KLR's (again, don't). Some things I am crap at, some thing the bike is crap at, And when I figure out the bike is crapper than I am I look for a solution.
In the meantime the poor old thing does 450km of commute a week. Riding a KTM, how much depreciation would I have burned up just riding slab to work? It seems like a waste of a perfectly good motorcycle to me.
So I have a KLR, and on the weekends I take it out in the woods, or the gravel, and have fun, but fun is also feckin' about with it and making it work for you.
I've taken care here not to run down anyone else's opinions on their bikes, and for many folks going and shelling out $$$ for custom tuned suspension is unaffordable and not required by their skillset, though I am sure that when the rider skillset and suspension tune are matched the outcomes are great. Without doubt if you are a professional rider, get a professional to set up your suspension.

[R650R]

All this talk of upgrades has my relationship with the DR on the rocks now and questioning how much I love it LOL
Still would like a decent seat along with F&R suspension tune, carbie, extra lights...
Maybe should just sell now and get something better for about the same money but then you can blow $$$ on all the others as someone has said.
Enjoying your technical explanations Robert about all the different setups, this is a great thread.

[Night Falcon]

I have to add if you really are that into good suspension why get a KLR? Great bikes but really if you want good handling why not just buy something more expensive to begin with. Sows ear etc





Yes I'm happy with the KLR despite it's obvious shortcomings , which could be (mostly) corrected for a lot less

without wanting to dissolve one of the more interesting threads on KB into the o'll KTM vrs KLR debate...for me the 690 was my dream bike despite the costs and I had no problems with reliability. - no matter what you spend on a KLR you wont come near the light weight, power and handling of a 690 - even an bodgied adventurized one.<_<

The KLR is a great bike for what it offers at a budget price but I don't read too many threads where folks dream of owning let alone riding one - its a means to and end bike and that doesn't make it bad but the 690 for me defined a big part of what I love about bikes/riding. I've done cheap bikes before but once you've tasted the Orange Cool-aid its hard to go back to Pepsi :no:

[400sm]

All this talk of upgrades has my relationship with the DR on the rocks now and questioning how much I love it LOL
Still would like a decent seat along with F&R suspension tune, carbie, extra lights...
Maybe should just sell now and get something better for about the same money but then you can blow $$$ on all the others as someone has said.
Enjoying your technical explanations Robert about all the different setups, this is a great thread.


Stay with Suzuki and try a DR Z400.
You will have more suspension than you will ever need. :shifty:


You are welcome to test ride mine

[Robert Taylor]

I like the KLR because I can develop the bike as I develop as a rider. Since I started riding 5yrs ago I've covered 100k, 25k on a Vespa (don't, I know),
and then the balance on KLR's (again, don't). Some things I am crap at, some thing the bike is crap at, And when I figure out the bike is crapper than I am I look for a solution.
In the meantime the poor old thing does 450km of commute a week. Riding a KTM, how much depreciation would I have burned up just riding slab to work? It seems like a waste of a perfectly good motorcycle to me.
So I have a KLR, and on the weekends I take it out in the woods, or the gravel, and have fun, but fun is also feckin' about with it and making it work for you.
I've taken care here not to run down anyone else's opinions on their bikes, and for many folks going and shelling out $$$ for custom tuned suspension is unaffordable and not required by their skillset, though I am sure that when the rider skillset and suspension tune are matched the outcomes are great. Without doubt if you are a professional rider, get a professional to set up your suspension.

On the contrary an average rider ( i.e most of us ) will benefit to an even greater extent with customised suspension mods than will a highly skilled rider. It improves their confidence in the bike so much more ( and enjoyment )

[Robert Taylor]

Please bear with me on suggested mods to make Intiminators actually work properly. Ive got it rattling around in my head but at present my workload is insane

[Underground]

We can wait, I'm off to town on the bike tomorrow so I'll try and concentrate on working out what I think they are not good at and see if what you suggest your mods are going to improve are the same things.
Its bloody hard for an amature to figure that sort of stuff out.

[buggsubique]

I haven't been on here in a loooong time. Life etc. I just got my intimiahrgkajs fitted on my Africa Twin a couple of rides ago and so far I'm happy with them, but that has only been on low speed technical stuff so far. People on here know how hard I ride my AT and to be honest I find it part of the challenge - riding the bike to it's 90's limitations. So far, having put these widgets in I'm happy there is some improvement. I don't think I'll ever know what good suspension is unless I get divorced or win lotto or sell the kids or something. But yeah, for a number 8 wire fix on my time warp bike (that's for you MarkS), I'm chuffed so far. Find it a bit bumpier on the road, but the road is no place for my AT anyway. Can't recall if I posted this vid on here before or not, but this prompted me to at least give my forks a token fix with the intimiohasg...and to remember I ride an aged (although capable!) bike.

RT, thanks for all your views on here - good educationy stuff to consider... might send you my rear shock in the near future... don't think it's been looked at in 20 years and did a solid job of kicking me off on this ride :facepalm:


http://youtu.be/AlXS5b-6Is0?t=3m57s

[chopperT]

Well yes RT you are probably right about the increased enjoyment/confidence levels for less experienced riders (myself included), but a capable suspension will also mask a riders deficiencies, and perhaps not allow them to progress? Learning to find the limit of the machine also teaches you about your own limits, if you can't find the edge of the envelope why do you need to extend it?

[bart]

did a solid job of kicking me off on this ride :facepalm:


I bet it was all grins until the music stopped....ouch. :eek5:

[400sm]

Nice video Buggs.
Ah the Tukino track. . .
Takes me back a few years when a mate, my son and l rode up to the snowline, in mid summer!

[buggsubique]

I bet it was all grins until the music stopped....ouch. :eek5:

You know it was mate!

[R650R]

That was cool, been eyeing that on the map for awhile, will have to get up there on the DR.

[Robert Taylor]

I haven't been on here in a loooong time. Life etc. I just got my intimiahrgkajs fitted on my Africa Twin a couple of rides ago and so far I'm happy with them, but that has only been on low speed technical stuff so far. People on here know how hard I ride my AT and to be honest I find it part of the challenge - riding the bike to it's 90's limitations. So far, having put these widgets in I'm happy there is some improvement. I don't think I'll ever know what good suspension is unless I get divorced or win lotto or sell the kids or something. But yeah, for a number 8 wire fix on my time warp bike (that's for you MarkS), I'm chuffed so far. Find it a bit bumpier on the road, but the road is no place for my AT anyway. Can't recall if I posted this vid on here before or not, but this prompted me to at least give my forks a token fix with the intimiohasg...and to remember I ride an aged (although capable!) bike.

RT, thanks for all your views on here - good educationy stuff to consider... might send you my rear shock in the near future... don't think it's been looked at in 20 years and did a solid job of kicking me off on this ride :facepalm:


http://youtu.be/AlXS5b-6Is0?t=3m57s

(Brutally), if you as you say find it ''a bit bumper on the road'' then these devices have singularly failed to improve abrupt bump compliance ( known as high speed compression damping, suspension shaft velocity, not bike velocity ) The video above gives some indication of that
A well designed device will not only deliver a sizable improvement in chassis pitch control and dynamic ride height control, it should also deliver a sizable improvement in abrupt bump compliance. That the Intiminators fall well short of what is possible is undeniable . That they fall well short of what is acceptable is also undeniable.

[buggsubique]

(Brutally), if you as you say find it ''a bit bumper on the road'' then these devices have singularly failed to improve abrupt bump compliance ( known as high speed compression damping, suspension shaft velocity, not bike velocity ) The video above gives some indication of that
A well designed device will not only deliver a sizable improvement in chassis pitch control and dynamic ride height control, it should also deliver a sizable improvement in abrupt bump compliance. That the Intiminators fall well short of what is possible is undeniable . That they fall well short of what is acceptable is also undeniable.

In the above vid I actually had 20 wt rather than the stock 5w and no intiminators at that time.

[Robert Taylor]

In the above vid I actually had 20 wt rather than the stock 5w and no intiminators at that time.

Yes, if the fork oil viscosity is slightly too high ( which it was for such forks ) it means that rebound action is lazy which it clearly was at especially the top of the stroke ( topping out area ) If recovery is not fast enough that then means that the forks are not back at ride height before the next obstacle. That creates harshness not too dissmiliar to having too much high speed compression. I will at least give Ricor some credit that they recognise the need for a more responsive oil, but in part its also because their device creates some rebound damping and is very restrictive on compression at especially higher velocities

My salient points about the limitations and the infuriating American hype that accompanies them rigidly remain. Smoke and mirrors, and I have no respect for such ''engineering'' Neither as it clearly can be understood does another company that makes a credible device that has a shim stack.

[400sm]

Buggs

I think you had the music up too loud and lost concentration!

[clint640]

Well yes RT you are probably right about the increased enjoyment/confidence levels for less experienced riders (myself included), but a capable suspension will also mask a riders deficiencies, and perhaps not allow them to progress? Learning to find the limit of the machine also teaches you about your own limits, if you can't find the edge of the envelope why do you need to extend it?

Those times when a rut/sheep/ditch/log/upsidedownafricatwin has suddenly appeared in front of me I have been pretty damn happy that my nicely tuned WP goodness has 'masked my deficiencies' ;)

Nice vid Buggs!

Cheers
Clint

[GPS MAN]

Hey Buggs ~ haven't you been there before ...the WAR RIDE~~:bleh:

[Underground]

Just back from thoroughly testing these things and now for an inexpert opinion.
As Buggs says they have a certain harshness to them, or to put it in more nautical terms they're a bit 'jobbley'
The front wheel doesnt seem to quite make it back to the ground quick enough on the little sharp bumps but it doesnt break loose when hard braking over corrugations.
I wouldnt take them out because they solve the brake dive issue the Africa Twin has and as I ride a lot of tight twisties brake dive is something I can live without.
The question now RT is, What if I take one out? I think there is a model of BMW which has comp in one leg and rebound in the other so I dont think it will cause any silly buisiness (correct me if I'm wrong)
I'm thinking I will get the best of both worlds, acceptable brake dive and less harshness (jobble) with quicker rebound??

[Robert Taylor]

Just back from thoroughly testing these things and now for an inexpert opinion.
As Buggs says they have a certain harshness to them, or to put it in more nautical terms they're a bit 'jobbley'
The front wheel doesnt seem to quite make it back to the ground quick enough on the little sharp bumps but it doesnt break loose when hard braking over corrugations.
I wouldnt take them out because they solve the brake dive issue the Africa Twin has and as I ride a lot of tight twisties brake dive is something I can live without.
The question now RT is, What if I take one out? I think there is a model of BMW which has comp in one leg and rebound in the other so I dont think it will cause any silly buisiness (correct me if I'm wrong)
I'm thinking I will get the best of both worlds, acceptable brake dive and less harshness (jobble) with quicker rebound??

Thats not silly, worth trying as its so relatively easy to answer that question. Although not totally concurring with your reasoning when we built our screw in shim stack type emulator we did so in one fork only. I will be interested to hear your result

[marks]

What if I take one out? I think there is a model of BMW which has comp in one leg and rebound in the other so I dont think it will cause any silly buisiness (correct me if I'm wrong)
I'm thinking I will get the best of both worlds, acceptable brake dive and less harshness (jobble) with quicker rebound??


you obviously aren’t as dumb as you look

I'd be interested in how you find this works

I might try the same thing on my klr

[marks]

But yeah, for a number 8 wire fix on my time warp bike (that's for you MarkS),

quite appropriate really

I didn't really notice the step to the left but I sure as shit noticed the jump to the riiiight.

Was that the off when we were all following you?

When is the next WAR?

[buggsubique]

Those times when a rut/sheep/ditch/log/upsidedownafricatwin has suddenly appeared in front of me






Was that the off when we were all following you?

When is the next WAR?

I almost forgot about that one Clint! Yeah that took a while to rebuild the plastics! THen there was the one when I went through the windscreen up under the mountain... that was the rear shock. And then this one Mark - this was at new years this year. F*ck I'm a slow learner! :blink:

As for another WAR ride. Yep it's on the list, hopefully this year, and will probably be a winter ride (read: snow!). Maybe I'll do one in spring too. Wanna do something a little different up there though. I don't really want to start a thread on it as it will be a closed-ish group with a trusted few.

[Underground]

you obviously aren’t as dumb as you look



Dont know whether its going to be best to do the right or the left.....
Another WAR would be good.

[Woodman]

Dont know whether its going to be best to do the right or the left.....
Another WAR would be good.

Pretty sure my BMW has the forks you speak of. Just looked on racetech site and springs and a valvey thing are pretty well priced.

What can you do for r100Gs,s Robert? Intiminators?:brick:

[NordieBoy]

The question now RT is, What if I take one out? I think there is a model of BMW which has comp in one leg and rebound in the other so I dont think it will cause any silly buisiness (correct me if I'm wrong)
I'm thinking I will get the best of both worlds, acceptable brake dive and less harshness (jobble) with quicker rebound??

I'd be more inclined to see what happens if you remove a shim from each side. It'll increase the brake dive and static sag but make it a little more compliant.

Rebound should only be affected by oil weight and damper rod hole size?

[Racing Dave]

I'd be more inclined to see what happens if you remove a shim from each side. It'll increase the brake dive and static sag but make it a little more compliant.

Rebound should only be affected by oil weight and damper rod hole size?

Static sag will only be affected by spring length/stiffness/preload and oil level.

[Scubbo]

a lot of kits seem to use PVC spacers to set preload in shit forks like the ones on my super sherp -- seems a bit dodgey to me ???

[pete376403]

Obviously new springs of the correct length and tension would be better, but if you don't want to pay for that, PVC tube is the other option.:laugh:

[NordieBoy]

Static sag will only be affected by spring length/stiffness/preload and oil level.

Of course it is :doh:
My brain was still processing the "remove one Intiminator" bit when my fingers typed that one...

[chopperT]

"PVC" pipe is a bit of a catchall there. Spacers, and they are just that, seem to usually be lathe cut from Schedule 40 or similar. As an engineering plastic PVC has a very high compression strength, and is perfectly suited to use as a spacer. Why pay extra for the tensile strength of metallic spacers when the only load they will ever see is compression?
Even the most well selected springs will need preload/sag "tuning" after installation by the use of such spacers. Just as your rear shock body is threaded for preload/sag.

[NordieBoy]

Yep. I use high pressure tubing I turn down in the lathe.
Made a spacer that was too short and several 5 and 10mm ones to fine tune,

[Robert Taylor]

Obviously new springs of the correct length and tension would be better, but if you don't want to pay for that, PVC tube is the other option.:laugh:

I emphatically disagree. Good design involves ( within sensible limits ) using the shortest possible springs and longest possible spacers, consistent with having enough stroke integrity of those springs so that they are safely above coil bind at fork full closed position. Why would you want to fill a fork up completely with a long and heavy spring? The longer the spring the more coils there are, the more coils there are the more friction there is and also area of rubbing to remove chards of metal off the inner fork walls

[Robert Taylor]

"PVC" pipe is a bit of a catchall there. Spacers, and they are just that, seem to usually be lathe cut from Schedule 40 or similar. As an engineering plastic PVC has a very high compression strength, and is perfectly suited to use as a spacer. Why pay extra for the tensile strength of metallic spacers when the only load they will ever see is compression?
Even the most well selected springs will need preload/sag "tuning" after installation by the use of such spacers. Just as your rear shock body is threaded for preload/sag.

We have on occassion seen such tube shatter but that was likely enhanced by their home made and unsquare nature. Also if there is any unfinished ''sharpness'' at the ends of springs ( such as we see with low cost springs such as Sonic ) thats going to play merry hell with such spacers.

But Im also averse to seeing spacer tube made out of ''virgin'' aluminium. The reaction with fork oil is very fast, discolouring it and destroying its integrity very fast. Its for good reason that with quality product you see such spacer tube anodised

[Robert Taylor]

Static sag will only be affected by spring length/stiffness/preload and oil level.

Also the level of seal drag and how well the forks are aligned. Condition of linkage, etc. Low speed compression damping can also have a measurable affect. Try turning the clickers all the way in and then all the way out. Often you will get two different readings, believe it or not. Same with rebound, if you are making the bike hang up or hang down with the damping it wont settle readily back to ride height and will mess with your measurements.

Who is measuring it and with what etiquette will also affect the readings. I guarantee from my own experience that I could ask ten different guys to measure the same bike and Id get ten different answers. MX riders are the worst, if you can get them to measure anything in the first place after adjusting the backwards inclination of their hats.

[Robert Taylor]

Pretty sure my BMW has the forks you speak of. Just looked on racetech site and springs and a valvey thing are pretty well priced.

What can you do for r100Gs,s Robert? Intiminators?:brick:

When hell freezes over, even then I wouldnt want to be fitting a ''smoke and mirrors'' product. Even the apologists for that product guardedly give an insight into just how poor the high speed bump absorption properties are

[Underground]

Ok, took one out and gave it a thorough testing, 400km mostly gravel and twisties and the climb to 1600m up Mt Altimarloch which is a steep rutted track paved with loose rocks.
One is much better than two, minimal increase in brake dive and the front wheel stays much more planted and less likely to deflect on those gnarley climbs.
One is also better than none because two were better than none.
Oh I have also ended up with sort of progressive springs by default because of the spacing effect of 13.8mm from one intiminator in one leg... Bonus!
So guys, sharing is caring, donate your left intiminator to a mate.
chopperT, if you are not at least removing brake dive you should be back to Ricor because they have clearly sold you something that is not fit for purpose (for your bike) and if they dont address this they are crooks.

[marks]

Ok, took one out and gave it a thorough testing, 400km mostly gravel and twisties and the climb to 1600m up Mt Altimarloch which is a steep rutted track paved with loose rocks.
One is much better than two, minimal increase in brake dive and the front wheel stays much more planted and less likely to deflect on those gnarley climbs.
One is also better than none because two were better than none.
Oh I have also ended up with sort of progressive springs by default because of the spacing effect of 13.8mm from one intiminator in one leg... Bonus!
So guys, sharing is caring, donate your left intiminator to a mate.
chopperT, if you are not at least removing brake dive you should be back to Ricor because they have clearly sold you something that is not fit for purpose (for your bike) and if they dont address this they are crooks.

donate be buggered - there must be some tight arsed klr rider that will buy a single iniminator from me....

So did you end up with different weight fork oils in each leg but not different spacers?

[Underground]

donate be buggered - there must be some tight arsed klr rider that will buy a single iniminator from me....

So did you end up with different weight fork oils in each leg but not different spacers?

Bloody KLR owners,
5w in both legs, early AT's have 5w as standard, different spacers because of the thickness of the thingy in one leg, so I've got a soft side and a hard side.

[Waihou Thumper]

so I've got a soft side and a hard side.

You sensitive new age guy you ......

[NordieBoy]

Bloody KLR owners,
5w in both legs, early AT's have 5w as standard, different spacers because of the thickness of the thingy in one leg, so I've got a soft side and a hard side.

There's your slow rebound issue.
Get some 2.5w in there with both 'nators for a test.

[Robert Taylor]

With the greatest respect a lot of you guys just assume so much and the reason for this thread is no different. A purchaser assumed that what the seller was claiming had 100% integrity. if you dredge through any number of other motorcycle related forums you will very quickly reason that the misgivings about the said product are significant.

When we are talking about ''oil weight'' the SAE ratings that suspension oils are rated at to be sold over the counter is ( to not put too fine a point on it ) ''a crock of s..t'' Rating a suspension oil by using a motor oil rating is complete and utter nonsense.
The only way to compare apples for apples is by using the centistoke scale, that far more accurately represents flow rate, one of the major preoccupations when determining what fork oil etc that you require.
Aside from the fact you shouldnt mix oil brands without starting with completely dry components ( and thats another story ) DIFFERENT BRANDS OF OIL SHOWING THE SAME SAE RATING ON THE BOTTLE WILL OFTEN HAVE SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT CENTISTOKE FLOW RATINGS. Which in this one case will affect rebound response.

EG

Belray fork oil ( sae ) 2.5 wt 9.2 centistokes at 40 degrees celsius

Silkolene Pro RSF ( sae ) 2.5 wt 14.0 centistokes at 40 degrees celsius ( in my opinion an excellent oil )

Maxima 5wt fork oil ( sae ) 5 wt 16.9 centistokes at 40 degrees celsius ( in my opinion also an excellent oil )

Get the picture? You could have had Maxima 5wt and then in all innocence purchased a bottle of Silkolene 2.5 and noticed for all practical intent no useful difference. Certainly not what you were looking for

To the best of my knowledge ( but I am prepared to be corrected ) Ohlins are the only company that have the foresight and decency to have the centistoke rating included in the labelling on the bottle. With all other manufacturers that I know of you have to access their spec cards off their websites, if all suspension oil manufacturers make this information available on their websites I dont know.

[cs363]

Blah, blah, blah etc :)

To mildly correct you RT, suspension fluid should in fact be referred to in centipoise (cP), being the measurement of the oils dynamic (or absolute) viscosity - the oils resistance to flow, whereas centistokes (cSt) is the measurement of the oils kinematic viscosity - the ratio of the dynamic viscosity to the density of the fluid. However, either way works for your purpose as they are effectively equal, that is 1 centipoise equals 1 centistoke.

Handy chart attached that shows many common suspension fluids sae rating and cSt rating attached which backs up your post above (you'll need to click on the window that opens again to get it to open in it's own browser page so that it can be enlarged enough to read!).
It amazes me that more manufacturers haven't gone down the centipoise/centistoke path with suspension fluid given that there is a much greater awareness of suspension upgrades etc., these days.

[marks]

this thread is certainly very edumacational

I'm learning heaps

[400sm]

Too true marks.

Things I've always wondered:

Do orifices control low speed bump?
Does shim stack control hi speed bump?
Do the clicker adjusters only alter orifices?

[Woodman]

this thread is certainly very edumacational

I'm learning heaps

Yup agreed, best thing on KB in yonks.

[Underground]

Handy chart attached

thanks! I spent ages looking for something like that, I'd read that what is written on the bottle doesn't necessarily relate to what is actually in it.
Does that mean that the Spectro 5w I've been using is pretty much on the money?
Otherwise its just guesswork isn't it.

[husaberg]

Too true marks.

Things I've always wondered:

Do orifices control low speed bump?
Does shim stack control hi speed bump?
Do the clicker adjusters only alter orifices?

to save Robert a bit of time try google ........
you might be surprised.....
have look at the racetech site the dude writes a fair few articles......
http://www.sportrider.com/tech/sportbike-suspension-guide
http://www.sportrider.com/technicalities-suspension-hardware-terms
http://racetech.com/page/id/30
http://racetech.com/articles/CartridgeForks.htm
http://www.sportrider.com/suspension-tuning-guide-learning-lingo
http://www.sportrider.com/technicalities-spring-rate-and-preload
http://www.sportrider.com/technicalities-damping-rod-forks-and-race-tech-gold-valve-emulator
http://www.sportrider.com/technicalities-cartridge-forks
http://www.sportrider.com/technicalities-suspension-overview-back-to-basics
http://www.sportrider.com/technicalities-rebound-damping
http://www.sportrider.com/technicalities-suspension-damping


mono vs twin tubes diagrams
http://www.tein.co.jp/e/special/ni_toryu/index.html

basic shock types
http://www.racetech.com/page/title/G3S%20Shock%20Types
http://www.showa1.com/en/product/motorcycle/shock_absorber_r.html
http://www.showa1.com/en/product/automobile/img/detail_shock_bunrikaatsu.jpg
http://www.showa1.com/en/product/automobile/img/detail_shock_doubletube.jpg


forks Big Piston
http://www.showa1.com/en/product/motorcycle/shock_absorber_f.html

Separate function forks
Mazzocchi did this years ago BTW
http://www.showa1.com/en/product/motorcycle/img/detail_shock_sff.jpg

nice overview
http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=J7tQp2LtsYIC&pg=PA113&lpg=PA113&dq=the+story+is+told+that+kenny+roberts+testing+in +japan&source=bl&ots=qdV9ywjxvC&sig=Biq7eZgPUaoA2MsTyA-L3Yb2dyY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=e2RnU7y6F4fDlQX6s4GADQ&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=the%20story%20is%20told%20that%20kenny%20roberts %20testing%20in%20japan&f=false

Ohlins TTX
does it different
http://www.hardracing.com/shocks%20&%20steering%20damp/TTX.htm

[cs363]

Does that mean that the Spectro 5w I've been using is pretty much on the money?
Otherwise its just guesswork isn't it.

Depends what you mean by 'on the money' I guess - if it's providing you with the performance you want then I suppose the answer would be hesitant yes.
Whether it's the perfect oil (and oil volume, which is yet another factor) for your application, seal/bushing life, long term durability etc., according to what a specialist tuner like KSS or the suspension manufacturer themselves would recommend is another thing.
That's the difference with having a specialist like Roberts company work on your suspension, with their combined expertise and specialist tools (they have a quite impressive suspension dyno if you're interested in those kinds of things) the guesswork is none existent.
They've worked their magic on a few of my bikes as well as quite a few friends of mine and it's money well spent IMHO.

[Robert Taylor]

To mildly correct you RT, suspension fluid should in fact be referred to in centipoise (cP), being the measurement of the oils dynamic (or absolute) viscosity - the oils resistance to flow, whereas centistokes (cSt) is the measurement of the oils kinematic viscosity - the ratio of the dynamic viscosity to the density of the fluid. However, either way works for your purpose as they are effectively equal, that is 1 centipoise equals 1 centistoke.

Handy chart attached that shows many common suspension fluids sae rating and cSt rating attached which backs up your post above (you'll need to click on the window that opens again to get it to open in it's own browser page so that it can be enlarged enough to read!).
It amazes me that more manufacturers haven't gone down the centipoise/centistoke path with suspension fluid given that there is a much greater awareness of suspension upgrades etc., these days.

Theres a general reluctance to accept change, or more pointedly to introduce into mainstream understanding the more technically correct way of rating a suspension fluids flow rate. Most consumers want simple, even if its accuracy is demonstrably flawed.

[Voltaire]

Robert did a series of posts about 3 years ago on damper rod forks, main thing I got was variable loads of oil needing to go from one side of a cylinder to the other via a fixed diameter hole, and the evils of progressive springs. being the cheapskate, DIY sort of guy building up a classic BMW racers went down the Racetech Emulator path. Got linear springs based on my weight and modified the forks.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p235/rednzep/DamperRod.jpg
The alloy rings are not Racetech as they were a sloppy once size fits all.
BMW's use 5wt ( using the engine oil scale), Racetech said to use 10 so I did. A guy who races the same bike in the states gave a depth the oil worked for him ( air gap at top)
I'm pretty slow around the track but I found the bike handled very nicely, the rear is old school Konis with springs I selected for my weight too.
Konis are one up from fixed damper but hey, they were in the shed and I rebuilt them with 10wt as well.
Fast forward a year and rode my mates almost identical bike around the track and found it no where near as nice to ride, progressive springs, 15 wt .... He finds its on the limit, and has had some " moments on turn 6"
I'm 3 secs behind and no issues....

Robert revalved my 900 SS shock when I had it, made it much nicer to ride, and a mate with a Sports Classic 1000 went down and says Robert transformed the bike. As we say at work, " if you can't measure it, you can't manage it"
I'll bugger off back to the Classic Section now. :rolleyes:

[Underground]

Depends what you mean by 'on the money' I guess

Or perhaps not, I just looked at the last column none of the rest made much sense to me and saw a number fairly close to the '5' on the spectro bottle.
But below is Ricors list of recomended oils and they seem to have a Cst between 15 and 16 (Ricor set them up for 15.7) whereas the spectro 5w has 21.6 :eek5:
Does that mean it is 'thicker'
As if the 'nator thing wasn't confusing enough there's the oil thing to try to figure out as well!



Amsoil Shock Therapy 5W
Shell Advanced 5w
Motorex Racing Fork Oil (2.5w)
Maxima Racing Fork Fluid (85/150 5w)
Motul Fork Oil (very light)
Ohlins Front Fork Fluid (No.5 1305-01)
Golden Spectro Cartridge Fork Fluid (85/150, very light) 5w
Bel-Ray Fork Oil (5wt)

[cs363]

Or perhaps not, I just looked at the last column none of the rest made much sense to me and saw a number fairly close to the '5' on the spectro bottle.
But below is Ricors list of recomended oils and they seem to have a Cst between 15 and 16 (Ricor set them up for 15.7) whereas the spectro 5w has 21.6 :eek5:
Does that mean it is 'thicker'
As if the 'nator thing wasn't confusing enough there's the oil thing to try to figure out as well!



Amsoil Shock Therapy 5W
Shell Advanced 5w
Motorex Racing Fork Oil (2.5w)
Maxima Racing Fork Fluid (85/150 5w)
Motul Fork Oil (very light)
Ohlins Front Fork Fluid (No.5 1305-01)
Golden Spectro Cartridge Fork Fluid (85/150, very light) 5w
Bel-Ray Fork Oil (5wt)


Essentially, yes - the Spectro is a 'thicker' oil than Ricor are recommending. Looking at the chart the closest and most readily available, quality oil seems to be Maxima 5w fork oil at 15.9 cSt.
Probably worth questioning Mr Taylor on oil level as well to get the best result. 'best' being a comparative term seeing as the Intiminators aren't the ideal product by all accounts, can't speak personally on the product as I've had zero experience with them.

[chopperT]

For reference, on install of the intiminators (I am so tired of that stupid name), I used Spectro 5w. Which apparently has a higher centistoke rating than that called out by Ricor. Even so the forks were ridiculously underdamped.

As an observation, despite the fact that (centistoke) viscosity varies widely between oil manufacturers, using the SAE rating is still a safe bet provided you stick with the same brand of oil, for comparative purposes at least?

Furthermore, still no reply from Ricor regarding the correct shim dimension/configuration.

[R650R]

I think a lot of forks would improve massively just with fresh oil, right grade or not as it goes off after awhile and im sure many riders overlook it.
The forks on the 750 had the birthday treatment at 50000 and 100000km and both times felt like a new bike afterwards.

[NordieBoy]

For reference, on install of the intiminators (I am so tired of that stupid name), I used Spectro 5w. Which apparently has a higher centistoke rating than that called out by Ricor. Even so the forks were ridiculously underdamped.

Then there's something wrong. A higher rated oil should mainly affect the rebound.
How much dive are you getting by grabbing the front brakes and pushing?

What shims are in your 'naters.

[Robert Taylor]

Then there's something wrong. A higher rated oil should mainly affect the rebound.
How much dive are you getting by grabbing the front brakes and pushing?

What shims are in your 'naters.

Did I hear right? You are calling those thick unyielding washers shims? Please explain how such washers can credibly deflect and allow a compliant ride ( truly rather than imaginatively )when hampering things further the ratio of shim ( washer ) outer diameter to clamping diameter is obscene and defies the well proven logic ( and practice ) of credible suspension manufacturers in both the motorcycle and automotive world?

[Robert Taylor]

I think a lot of forks would improve massively just with fresh oil, right grade or not as it goes off after awhile and im sure many riders overlook it.
The forks on the 750 had the birthday treatment at 50000 and 100000km and both times felt like a new bike afterwards.

Would you leave your engine oil in and change it only every 50000 kilometres? The oil inside forks and shocks is not only there for damping its there for lubrication. And by implication to minimise wear. The suspension units should ideally have their oil changed at least every 20000 kilometres but that interval forsehortened by as much as half for severe usage. Theres also a very strong argument to say that it should also be changed on the first service ( for units that are servicable )

[NordieBoy]

Did I hear right? You are calling those thick unyielding washers shims?
Because Fox sell them as suspension shims?

A .2 and .3mm shim gave a little too much brake dive on the TT350 (still better than stock) and adding a .12mm bought the dive back to similar levels to the DR650.
Doesn't this indicate they do yield?

[NordieBoy]

Would you leave your engine oil in and change it only every 50000 kilometres? The oil inside forks and shocks is not only there for damping its there for lubrication. And by implication to minimise wear. The suspension units should ideally have their oil changed at least every 20000 kilometres but that interval forsehortened by as much as half for severe usage. Theres also a very strong argument to say that it should also be changed on the first service ( for units that are servicable )

That's one thing I like about the TT350 forks.
The drain hole at the bottom of the leg.

[400sm]

Furthermore, still no reply from Ricor regarding the correct shim dimension/configuration.



chopper,

Have you considered telephoning them directly?

(I have had great results with companies using this method in years gone by)

[Robert Taylor]

Because Fox sell them as suspension shims?

A .2 and .3mm shim gave a little too much brake dive on the TT350 (still better than stock) and adding a .12mm bought the dive back to similar levels to the DR650.
Doesn't this indicate they do yield?

Brake dive is primarily controlled by bypass bleed with a little assistance from the shim stacks, in a system that is properly engineered. In all respects that ''shim stack'' setup on those Intiminators is very crude and badly engineered, period.

[Woodman]

They improved my KLR.:shutup:

[Robert Taylor]

They improved my KLR.:shutup:

Improvement is a term of relativity. What they have achieved and what could have been achieved at similiar or not significantly greater cost are two very different things. For what they clearly fail to achieve they actually are a rip off

[chopperT]

I pulled the intiminators out of the forks this morning, and stripped the valves down. Excuse the inch measurements, but hey you measure as it was built.

The packaging calls out the shim spec. as " 4x 0.012, 1x 0.015 "

I have all shims at 0.012" (10 shims total).

9 of the shims have an OD of 0.917", 1 has OD of 0.950".

Only the 0.950" shim completely covers the ID of the rebound check valve which acts as the seat for the shimstack. The ID of the rebound check valve is 0.920", so the smaller shims are leaving an annular gap, which is just a big orifice.

Added to that is the thicknesses are all at 0.012". None of the shims are 0.015". The difference in stiffness between a 0.012" and a 0.015" is significant (thickness cubed).

Somehow these shim packs have gotten all messed up.

I'm going to try to put together the correct shims, and give them another try. And hey if they are still bad then I'll call them junk and buy some Racetech emulators, but I want to see the Ricors work like they should first.

NB: Shim dimensional details as above. How do they compare to the shims you set up your 'haters with?

[Padmei]

Improvement is a term of relativity. What they have achieved and what could have been achieved at similiar or not significantly greater cost are two very different things. For what they clearly fail to achieve they actually are a rip off

Soooo..... it is possible to manufacture a relatively low cost suspension upgrade for these type of forks? if so how come we aren't seeing them?

Also how could one definitively test the effectiveness of said devices on a bike? When I queried the Intimator groupies about how to effectively test brake dive they replied with some kind of particle deaccelator machine.

[Robert Taylor]

Soooo..... it is possible to manufacture a relatively low cost suspension upgrade for these type of forks? if so how come we aren't seeing them?

Also how could one definitively test the effectiveness of said devices on a bike? When I queried the Intimator groupies about how to effectively test brake dive they replied with some kind of particle deaccelator machine.

You are seeing them but they dont work! Its like comparing Sue Bradford to Claudia Schiffer. John Key to that appalling union appointed Labour leader. Chalk or cheese.

Race Tech emulators or better still the new Cogent Dynamics valves. Great value and they actually work.

[Robert Taylor]

Soooo..... it is possible to manufacture a relatively low cost suspension upgrade for these type of forks? if so how come we aren't seeing them?

Also how could one definitively test the effectiveness of said devices on a bike? When I queried the Intimator groupies about how to effectively test brake dive they replied with some kind of particle deaccelator machine.

There are low cost Emulator copies but the issues with them have been well documented. Cheap always comes at a cost and you'd think that a lot of people are gunshy about the cheapest goods, given the large volume of not fit for purpose rubbish that comes out of China.

If you want dirt cheap then you are being totally unrealistic because dirt cheap and an acceptably good result just dont go hand in hand.

[Robert Taylor]

Any update from North Mexico? Were they ever forthcoming with a reply?