The rear brake. Who uses it?

[richban]

I was thinking about trying to use the rear brake again.

I only ever seem to use it in the wet. Or in the event of an emergency. aka - ahhhhhhhhh shhhhhheeeeit! Must go slower into that one.


It would be interesting to know who uses there rear brake. And what for. Now I will be racing a 2 stroke with not that much engine braking I was thinking trailing the rear a little might settle it and turn it in better. Also it might want to stand it up. We will see how that goes next weekend.

But the question still remains. Who uses this little lever by your right foot.

[Shaun Harris]

I was thinking about trying to use the rear brake again.

I only ever seem to use it in the wet. Or in the event of an emergency. aka - ahhhhhhhhh shhhhhheeeeit! Must go slower into that one.


It would be interesting to know who uses there rear brake. And what for. Now I will be racing a 2 stroke with not that much engine braking I was thinking trailing the rear a little might settle it and turn it in better. Also it might want to stand it up. We will see how that goes next weekend.

But the question still remains. Who uses this little lever by your right foot.






used to live on it. Get a ruler or something sim and imagine it is a bike, then go through the motions of picturing what applying it does ie chassis pitch and bingo, there is the main reason for using it rather than actually slowing down on a race track. I used just before applying the front to lower the rear as much as poss to aid keeping rear on ground whilst heavy breaking, also to alter chassis pitch going into and through the turn to either aid holding a line or looking for a little under stear, as well as to control wheel spin on way out on anything 600cc or bigger. My 2c worth PS, I spent a shit load of time in developing the feal to use it that much and consistantly and wish the thumb break was invented back then, so much better with the direct hand feal rather than a race boot foot and leg etc

[richban]

used to live on it. Get a ruler or something sim and imagine it is a bike, then go through the motions of picturing what applying it does ie chassis pitch and bingo, there is the main reason for using it rather than actually slowing down on a race track. I used just before applying the front to lower the rear as much as poss to aid keeping rear on ground whilst heavy breaking, also to alter chassis pitch going into and through the turn to either aid holding a line or looking for a little under stear, as well as to control wheel spin on way out on anything 600cc or bigger. My 2c worth PS, I spent a shit load of time in developing the feal to use it that much and consistantly and wish the thumb break was invented back then, so much better with the direct hand feal rather than a race boot foot and leg etc

Not sure what you mean re the ruler thing. But from experience the rear brake does help turning in and settling the bike. I raced an auto scooter for kicks. Its all about the rear brake.

Ah yeah. Good point on the thumb brake. That would be handy.

[Shaun Harris]

when you apply rear brake, rear of bike lowers or squats ( So rear of ruler goes towards ground) let brake off again and rear raises loading and unloading the front wheel ( ruler front up down effect) so chassis pitch weight bearing load control, ie holding a line or looking for understeer by taking weight of the front wheel and running wide as such, is that a little better explained. If you were here in front of me or me doing this on a vid you would have understand my poor descrition in the first place due to body language describing the actions.

[misterO]

The only time I ever use the rear brake is when I am also using the front brake.

Edit: on a slow u-turn I will sometimes use only the rear brake (very slightly).

[ducatilover]

I reckon Drew uses it heaps.

[Boo]

http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k586/oldie30/IMG_6654_zpsd5060357.jpg (http://s1117.photobucket.com/user/oldie30/media/IMG_6654_zpsd5060357.jpg.html)
I go hard on mine, run a 14mm master

[scracha]

There's a REAR brake?

[steveyb]

used to live on it. Get a ruler or something sim and imagine it is a bike, then go through the motions of picturing what applying it does ie chassis pitch and bingo, there is the main reason for using it rather than actually slowing down on a race track. I used just before applying the front to lower the rear as much as poss to aid keeping rear on ground whilst heavy breaking, also to alter chassis pitch going into and through the turn to either aid holding a line or looking for a little under stear, as well as to control wheel spin on way out on anything 600cc or bigger. My 2c worth PS, I spent a shit load of time in developing the feal to use it that much and consistantly and wish the thumb break was invented back then, so much better with the direct hand feal rather than a race boot foot and leg etc

Bingo. It is there for good reason. If the only thing needed was the front brake, then the rear would not be fitted.
Does not make using it any easier but.....

[ajturbo]

dam.. something else i have to learn to use... always wondered why that thing was there..

[richban]

Bingo. It is there for good reason. If the only thing needed was the front brake, then the rear would not be fitted.
Does not make using it any easier but.....

For sure. Thumb brake is the ticket for me I think.

[nzspokes]

There's a REAR brake?

Seems like a hard way to do it. Not hard to make them run through the stock rear m/cyl and only use one brake caliper.

[Boo]

Bingo. It is there for good reason. If the only thing needed was the front brake, then the rear would not be fitted.
Does not make using it any easier but.....

Beringer 6 pot, this thing is fucken dangerous it'll throw you over the bars at 140 kms.
http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k586/oldie30/IMG_6653_zps093d0c4c.jpg (http://s1117.photobucket.com/user/oldie30/media/IMG_6653_zps093d0c4c.jpg.html)

[Boo]

Seems like a hard way to do it. Not hard to make them run through the stock rear m/cyl and only use one brake caliper.
If your hard on the rear the brake fluid will boil on a standard m/cy, they some times get too hot dirt riding, then comes the brake fade.... then comes the crash.
It has an oversized cast iron rotor, the standard shit just don't cut it

[Dave-]

The rear brake makes up 20%* of your ability to decelerate.

If I told you that you could accelerate 20% faster by carefully pressing a lever you'd give it a nudge.

* - You can argue over the percentage, or how much effect it has while the rear wheel is unloaded/in the air all you like.

[macka77]

The rear brake makes up 20%* of your ability to decelerate.

If I told you that you could accelerate 20% faster by carefully pressing a lever you'd give it a nudge.

* - You can argue over the percentage, or how much effect it has while the rear wheel is unloaded/in the air all you like.

but didnt u crash tryin it

[Dave-]

but didnt u crash tryin it

Ah yes, that crash is what forced me to revise my thoughts on rear braking to include the "carefully" disclaimer.

[Mental Trousers]

The rear brake can be really useful. If you watch guys like Stroudy they're dragging the rear brake through the turn 2-3 transistion at Hampton Downs to keep the bike steady.

I was making too many mistakes using the rear brake and I was also buggering around with the brake instead of getting my feet sorted for corners so I stopped using it. But I keep thinking I really should learn how to use it properly cos I'm sure it would help out at times. A thumb brake would be a good move.

[Shaun Harris]

The rear brake can be really useful. If you watch guys like Stroudy they're dragging the rear brake through the turn 2-3 transistion at Hampton Downs to keep the bike steady.

I was making too many mistakes using the rear brake and I was also buggering around with the brake instead of getting my feet sorted for corners so I stopped using it. But I keep thinking I really should learn how to use it properly cos I'm sure it would help out at times. A thumb brake would be a good move.






Thumb break every time man

[richban]

Thumb break every time man

I am making one. MTB brake lever with cable pulling master cylinder plunger up. Will try direct pull first. If that don't work then will use a lever at the master with different leverage points. Cheap and choice. If it is reliable.

[mr bucketracer]

I am making one. MTB brake lever with cable pulling master cylinder plunger up. Will try direct pull first. If that don't work then will use a lever at the master with different leverage points. Cheap and choice. If it is reliable.just get on and ride the bike , worry about that crap later:wings:best get the parachute ready

[Bert]

I am making one. MTB brake lever with cable pulling master cylinder plunger up. Will try direct pull first. If that don't work then will use a lever at the master with different leverage points. Cheap and choice. If it is reliable.

Start designing a 3:1 ratio lever now. You will not have the hand strength to enable you to actually concentrate on racing after a couple of laps...

Yes I am calling you a pussy...:bleh:
See ya tomorrow

[richban]

just get on and ride the bike , worry about that crap later:wings:best get the parachute ready

She won't chuck me if I go nice and slow like you old man.

[Shaun Harris]

I am making one. MTB brake lever with cable pulling master cylinder plunger up. Will try direct pull first. If that don't work then will use a lever at the master with different leverage points. Cheap and choice. If it is reliable.









just buy one made by proffessionals man.

[richban]

just buy one made by proffessionals man.

Are you mental? Where is the fun in that.

[Shaun Harris]

Are you mental? Where is the fun in that.







haha- deff not on the ground after a failure

[Bert]

just buy one made by proffessionals man.


Are you mental? Where is the fun in that.

In true bucket racer style. :niceone:
Long last kiwi intuitively (long forgotten in some circles).

Looking forward to seeing all these 300 twostrokers out there (and the Speedjunkie Aprilia and RGVs).
Hopefully the two Wobbly RS banshees get out there too.

It will nice to hear the sound of the twostrokers again...

Ningningning tweek...:clap:

[steveyb]

Twostrokes?
I'm sorry you lost me. What are these demon machines of which you speak?
The past, present and future is the four stroke engine only......

ducking now

[F5 Dave]

With infinite time or money I'd love to put a thumb brake on the dirtbike as a rudimentary traction control in the slippery stuff.

Put a bigarse spring or rubber band on the rear lever, makes it easier to regulate, but I have to remember to keep away from the lever after being out on the dirt as I tend to overuse it for a while till I retrain myself.

[Drew]

I'm learning to use it...off road.

Think Stroudy uses it to compress the rear suspension you'll find. When the rear is jacked up, the chain tightening stops the suspension compressing when ya roll the gas on. So you lose compliance and traction.

But if you load the brake and get the swingarm angle close to flat you can overcome that, and enjoy the advantages of both worlds.

[Ocean1]

With infinite time or money I'd love to put a thumb brake on the dirtbike as a rudimentary traction control in the slippery stuff.

Seen those clakes? Haven't met anyone that's tried one...


I have to remember to keep away from the lever after being out on the dirt as I tend to overuse it for a while till I retrain myself.

I get that. After a day out on the dirt bike I have to consciously lay off it on the road.

[Shaun Harris]

I'm learning to use it...off road.

Think Stroudy uses it to compress the rear suspension you'll find. When the rear is jacked up, the chain tightening stops the suspension compressing when ya roll the gas on. So you lose compliance and traction.

But if you load the brake and get the swingarm angle close to flat you can overcome that, and enjoy the advantages of both worlds.








You are on drugs buddy

[Drew]

You are on drugs buddyYou've ridden bikes with the swingarm pivot too far above the axle height, no? They light up the tyre something fierce on corner exit. Took a long time to figure out that's what was causing me to lose speed and drive on my superbike.

'Anti squat' is what some people call it. It means that the front doesn't rake out as much when you load up the rear, and can hold a tighter line...untill of course the power of your bike overcomes the available traction of the tyre. Then the line tightens up MIGHTY quick.

The rear brake isn't used to reduce power, it's to sort the geometry of the swingarm in this application.

[Shaun Harris]

You've ridden bikes with the swingarm pivot too far above the axle height, no? They light up the tyre something fierce on corner exit. Took a long time to figure out that's what was causing me to lose speed and drive on my superbike.

'Anti squat' is what some people call it. It means that the front doesn't rake out as much when you load up the rear, and can hold a tighter line...untill of course the power of your bike overcomes the available traction of the tyre. Then the line tightens up MIGHTY quick.

The rear brake isn't used to reduce power, it's to sort the geometry of the swingarm in this application.









You have simply been reading to much stuff and baffled yourself with bullsit and are now just pretending that you actually know what you are talking about dude

Open throttle suspension squats which tightens chain

What year model superbike could you not ride like all others could with the swingarm faults that you mention

And yea have ridden heaps of bikes with slight issues including the tryphonas and the Britten, so loads of test riding done

[quickbuck]

Open throttle suspension squats which tightens chain



Ummmm,
Not how I was taught..... (excuse the pun)

Open throttle this happens:
The primary gear pulls on the chain. The reaction is that the rear sprocket gets pulled closer to the engine (As the tyre has the weight of the bike and rider to PUSH along).
This usually means the rear of the bike actually RISES..... unless something else is done to the suspension or geometry to prevent this from happening.....

[Shaun Harris]

Ummmm,
Not how I was taught..... (excuse the pun)

Open throttle this happens:
The primary gear pulls on the chain. The reaction is that the rear sprocket gets pulled closer to the engine (As the tyre has the weight of the bike and rider to PUSH along).
This usually means the rear of the bike actually RISES..... unless something else is done to the suspension or geometry to prevent this from happening.....





OK, so when you open the throttle, does the shock use any more stroke at all?

[Drew]

You have simply been reading to much stuff and baffled yourself with bullsit and are now just pretending that you actually know what you are talking about dude

Open throttle suspension squats which tightens chain

What year model superbike could you not ride like all others could with the swingarm faults that you mention

And yea have ridden heaps of bikes with slight issues including the tryphonas and the Britten, so loads of test riding doneI would certainly not question your experience, so it surprises me that you don't understand what I'm trying to say.


Ummmm,
Not how I was taught..... (excuse the pun)

Open throttle this happens:
The primary gear pulls on the chain. The reaction is that the rear sprocket gets pulled closer to the engine (As the tyre has the weight of the bike and rider to PUSH along).
This usually means the rear of the bike actually RISES..... unless something else is done to the suspension or geometry to prevent this from happening.....This is what I'm talking about...more indepth to follow...


OK, so when you open the throttle, does the shock use any more stroke at all?Yes it does, unless the swingarm angle is so steep that the chain tension is 'binding' it up.

The sprocket is in front of the swingarm pivot. So, the chain is at it's absolute longest when the line between the sprocket, swingarm pivot, and axle are all dead straight. If you start loading the throttle/chain before that straight line, the weight transfer can be insufficient to overcome the chain trying to shorten that distance. This stops the rear suspension compressing. So the only 'give' left when the tyre hits a bump or whatever, is traction.

The upside to having the swingarm at a severe angle is still a bit of a mystery to me. It certainly makes for more stability on fast direction changes in my experience, but other than that I am only guessing. More weight on the front wheel at turn in is an obvious one I'm willing to bet on though.

So, in response to "pretending to know what I'm talking about". Suck my dick old boy. I have personally experienced the effects, and had to research the explanation to fully understand it.

[Shaun Harris]

I would certainly not question your experience, so it surprises me that you don't understand what I'm trying to say.

This is what I'm talking about...more indepth to follow...

Yes it does, unless the swingarm angle is so steep that the chain tension is 'binding' it up.

The sprocket is in front of the swingarm pivot. So, the chain is at it's absolute longest when the line between the sprocket, swingarm pivot, and axle are all dead straight. If you start loading the throttle/chain before that straight line, the weight transfer can be insufficient to overcome the chain trying to shorten that distance. This stops the rear suspension compressing. So the only 'give' left when the tyre hits a bump or whatever, is traction.

The upside to having the swingarm at a severe angle is still a bit of a mystery to me. It certainly makes for more stability on fast direction changes in my experience, but other than that I am only guessing. More weight on the front wheel at turn in is an obvious one I'm willing to bet on though.

So, in response to "pretending to know what I'm talking about". Suck my dick old boy. I have personally experienced the effects, and had to research the explanation to fully understand it.











Love ya to honey


Every single motorcycle on the road or race track in New Zealand is subject to exactually what I said, open throttle shock stroke gets used, chain tightens!

Another point class room 101, The chain should be pre set everytime to allow all the FULL STROKE of the shock to be used without the chain becoming to tight to not allow shock stroke to be used.

What you are saying is tech correct of course and we have probbally read the same articles on it Drew, but as per most things on the internet, it is being used out of context for the question from the OP




PS, my spelling still sux so beat me

[Drew]

I was just explaining my observation of Stroudy using his rear brake. I'm not an advocate for jacking up the rear of the bike. I headbutted my own front tyre once without falling off, from a very near highside. TonyOK was behind me laughing his arse off at the sight of me doing a headstand over the front of the bike exiting Higgins at Manfeild.

It is all academic anyway. An NSR is not likely to have the poke to overcome the weight transfer, 300 kitted or not. I'm referring to my own Haldane built real deal 190 horse superbike, and Mr Stroud's own similar machines.

The rear brake in my opinion is redundant under race braking conditions for the purpose of slowing down, but many people far more skilled than I use it for other reasons on the track.

[scrivy]

FUCK ME!!

I think I need to throw you two in the 'Dungeon' with a keg of beer, a 2 litre container of lube, a double ender and some frozen chickens.......

Geezus H Christ......

:rolleyes::shifty::eek::bleh:

[Dreama]

I am making one. MTB brake lever with cable pulling master cylinder plunger up. Will try direct pull first. If that don't work then will use a lever at the master with different leverage points. Cheap and choice. If it is reliable.

Back to thumb brakes .. this is mine. I was never skilled enough to coordinate myself to use it properly .. it's surprising how difficult it is to find the time to think of all that sort of stuff when the brain is obsessed with dealing with sensory overload.

[F5 Dave]

Seen those clakes? Haven't met anyone that's tried one...



I get that. After a day out on the dirt bike I have to consciously lay off it on the road.
Yeah back to the less handbags at 10 paces conversation ; yeah I have read about them. Not quite and too speedy for me. Justin had a bodge system on his KTM due to a rekluse that looked worth pursuing, but then time is too short for every project.

[Shaun Harris]

Back to thumb brakes .. this is mine. I was never skilled enough to coordinate myself to use it properly .. it's surprising how difficult it is to find the time to think of all that sort of stuff when the brain is obsessed with dealing with sensory overload.







But did you have it up and running though?

[Shaun Harris]

FUCK ME!!

I think I need to throw you two in the 'Dungeon' with a keg of beer, a 2 litre container of lube, a double ender and some frozen chickens.......

Geezus H Christ......

:rolleyes::shifty::eek::bleh:






I suppose it does ftr in with all the shit talk of sidecar racers

[Drew]

I suppose it does ftr in with all the shit talk of sidecar racersNa, I'm usually wrong when talking about sidecars.

[Dreama]

But did you have it up and running though?

Yeah, it works really well. I'm able to use either foot or thumb but mostly I found that when I needed it for hard braking I was a tad 'busy', never mind trying to downshift at the same time.. I did use it when coming into sweepers like Jennian at puke because I had time to think about it.

[Robert Taylor]

You've ridden bikes with the swingarm pivot too far above the axle height, no? They light up the tyre something fierce on corner exit. Took a long time to figure out that's what was causing me to lose speed and drive on my superbike.

'Anti squat' is what some people call it. It means that the front doesn't rake out as much when you load up the rear, and can hold a tighter line...untill of course the power of your bike overcomes the available traction of the tyre. Then the line tightens up MIGHTY quick.

The rear brake isn't used to reduce power, it's to sort the geometry of the swingarm in this application.

Be careful of making over generalisations that something may not work on one particular bike. Where it may work on another bike with a different combination of components.

Take the humble two stroke expansion chamber. We fitted a brand new aftermarket one back a few decades ago to one of Shayne Kings racebikes. (about the same time that you were graduating to sitting on the toilet). The bike was still stock and it dyno'd as having less power and delivery than with the stock pipe. We then ported the cylinder and then repeated the back to back tests of stock against aftermarket pipe. The aftermarket pipe LOVED the ported cylinder. COMBINATIONS. That is no less true of pivot height, etc

Id really like to get hold of some of that really good shit you are smoking!

[Drew]

Be careful of making over generalisations that something may not work on one particular bike. Where it may work on another bike with a different combination of components.

Take the humble two stroke expansion chamber. We fitted a brand new aftermarket one back a few decades ago to one of Shayne Kings racebikes. (about the same time that you were graduating to sitting on the toilet). The bike was still stock and it dyno'd as having less power and delivery than with the stock pipe. We then ported the cylinder and then repeated the back to back tests of stock against aftermarket pipe. The aftermarket pipe LOVED the ported cylinder. COMBINATIONS. That is no less true of pivot height, etc

Id really like to get hold of some of that really good shit you are smoking!Soooo. If you (in essence) put the swing arm pivot so high that the chain is always shortening the distance between sprockets by extending the shock when under accelerating load, with the right combination of shock and linkage it will still squat? I don't think so.

If the torque is enough to overcome the weight transfer and hold the sprockets closer together, (as in not letting the rear shock compress), then applying the back brake before the gas can assist. After all, the forces from applying the rear brake all add up to the swingarm compressing the rear shock unless you are riding something antiquated with a torque arm. Once the swingarm passes the point of the three points being in a straight line, the torque is then trying to continue that same motion of the swingarm.

I cannot help but wonder if this is the reason manufacturers have gone away from using a torque arm to the rear caliper....or just a happy coincidence from dropping a bit of weight.

[Grumph]

I cannot help but wonder if this is the reason manufacturers have gone away from using a torque arm to the rear caliper....or just a happy coincidence from dropping a bit of weight.

Nah. tyres have got wider but in the main, swingarm pivot widths have stayed the same - so less room for a torque arm. Simplify - and it's probably cheaper too.

[Robert Taylor]

Soooo. If you (in essence) put the swing arm pivot so high that the chain is always shortening the distance between sprockets by extending the shock when under accelerating load, with the right combination of shock and linkage it will still squat? I don't think so.

If the torque is enough to overcome the weight transfer and hold the sprockets closer together, (as in not letting the rear shock compress), then applying the back brake before the gas can assist. After all, the forces from applying the rear brake all add up to the swingarm compressing the rear shock unless you are riding something antiquated with a torque arm. Once the swingarm passes the point of the three points being in a straight line, the torque is then trying to continue that same motion of the swingarm.

I cannot help but wonder if this is the reason manufacturers have gone away from using a torque arm to the rear caliper....or just a happy coincidence from dropping a bit of weight.

Everything in moderation Drew

Having some rear end compression just before applying the front brakes is a good thing as it lower the biggest weight ( the motor ) a tad and gives more rear end extension capacity

[suzuki21]

Everything in moderation Drew

Having some rear end compression just before applying the front brakes is a good thing as it lower the biggest weight ( the motor ) a tad and gives more rear end extension capacity

This would be true, and is exactly what top riders do. Without proper datalogging and people at a level that can decipher the results they are probably better off just riding the damned thing and getting more practice. For example it is common on coaching days people do quicker laptimes when they brake EARLIER as they have time to set up for the corner. Generally people out of the top 5 in SBK or 600 in NZ would be better served by not worrying about swingarm angle or rear brake use, and concentrating on losing bad/incorrect riding habits.

[quickbuck]

Generally people out of the top 5 in SBK or 600 in NZ would be better served by not worrying about swingarm angle or rear brake use, and concentrating on losing bad/incorrect riding habits.

Actually, after witnessing what I did at the final round of the NZSBK Nationals, I would say "Top 10".... But, yes fair point.








Sent from my Nokia using Tapa talk.

[Boo]

OK I've kept up with the post and all the feed back, I use a rear hand brake because
1.When I do wheelies my ass slips down the seat and I can't keep my foot on the rear brake lever because my guts is too fat.
2. When I trail brake into a corner my guts is not trying to fly over the bars it just pushes up against the tank.
3. If you slip off the back and try to run alongside the bike, if your in anything higher than 1st your fucked.
4. If you break that good shit up into tinnys ill take two.

[Robert Taylor]

This would be true, and is exactly what top riders do. Without proper datalogging and people at a level that can decipher the results they are probably better off just riding the damned thing and getting more practice. For example it is common on coaching days people do quicker laptimes when they brake EARLIER as they have time to set up for the corner. Generally people out of the top 5 in SBK or 600 in NZ would be better served by not worrying about swingarm angle or rear brake use, and concentrating on losing bad/incorrect riding habits.

For once you are largely talking some sense Steve. Even though you have many bad habits and attitudes! For me Jaden Hassans steady progress was a standout, all without any rider ''aids'' such as traction control or data logging. A winner in his rookie season and 4th overall. But for an unfortunate gear linkage fracture in the final race ( whilst leading ) he would have finished second overall in the championship.
Im not against data logging by any stretch of the imagination but its clear that you can become so overly preoccupied with it that it takes a hell of a lot longer to establish a setting direction and theres not always the luxury of that amount of time. Sometimes instinct is a lot faster.

Indeed one of the very top Ohlins technicians in Moto 2 ( looking after the very top guys ) does not look at data logging and relies most on his own setting instincts. This class is full of young guys with relatively very little setup knowledge and as is fairly suggested they are best to concentrate on riding skills. Given of course that they are given bikes that are on the money

[Shaun Harris]

This would be true, and is exactly what top riders do. Without proper datalogging and people at a level that can decipher the results they are probably better off just riding the damned thing and getting more practice. For example it is common on coaching days people do quicker laptimes when they brake EARLIER as they have time to set up for the corner. Generally people out of the top 5 in SBK or 600 in NZ would be better served by not worrying about swingarm angle or rear brake use, and concentrating on losing bad/incorrect riding habits.






The problem with the last part of your comment mate is people spend to much time reading shit on the net about tech issues when they should be spending time on what you have said, ( Or is some cases just getting what they have going so they can test themself out) just learning to ride smoothly and evalluating where there weaknesses are and what they need to concentrate on to eradicate bad and introduce new habits.

[roogazza]

The problem with the last part of your comment mate is people spend to much time reading shit on the net about tech issues when they should be spending time on what you have said, ( Or is some cases just getting what they have going so they can test themself out) just learning to ride smoothly and evalluating where there weaknesses are and what they need to concentrate on to eradicate bad and introduce new habits.

I like the way this thread is heading. Ride smooth and practice !
I drag the shit out of the rear always have (like 50 yrs !) Never really thought of it much. Just tried to be as smooth as. Different era I know,but I can remember mates coming up at Street races saying how they notice me dragging the rear into corners!
(Old drum brakes would turn gold.)
It was all instinct,not taught. Too old to bother changing now.

[Tony.OK]

With the advent of slipper clutches, is rear braking so important coming into corners now?
I can see the benefits on mid corner and exit for wheelspin control and settling/tightening line mid corner.
I remember years ago they had a camera looking at Edwards (I think) foot in WSBK, was surprised how much he was using the rear mid and late corner.

[Shaun Harris]

With the advent of slipper clutches, is rear braking so important coming into corners now?
I can see the benefits on mid corner and exit for wheelspin control and settling/tightening line mid corner.
I remember years ago they had a camera looking at Edwards (I think) foot in WSBK, was surprised how much he was using the rear mid and late corner.




yes Tony I think is is. it actually does help reduce speed which is what it was intended for, so based on that alone, it most deff has a place still for racers and road raiders as a safety control. A smidgeon of time gained on each corner entry adds up after 6 or so breaking turns compounding on lap after lap till end of race.

[Mental Trousers]

With the advent of slipper clutches, is rear braking so important coming into corners now?

There's still plenty of cases where a slipper clutch isn't the entire answer. For instance, Taupo heading to the sweeper before the main straight I don't change up to fifth I just keep it in the same gear. But that means I get to the braking area with 14,000rpm on board and when I close the throttle and brake the engine momentarily locks the rear wheel, which causes the wheel to leave the ground for a split second because the shock is able to react a lot quicker than the slipper clutch. It repeats this a couple of times so it's the classic engine braking lock up problem until the slipper clutch reacts and cancels it out.

In that case the rear brake helps.

Either that or I fiddle the computer and take 3 degrees of ignition advance out over 12,500rpm @ 0% throttle, which is what I've done cos it's easier than learning to use the rear brake again :eek:

[YellowDog]

Great thread guys.

My rear brake lasts just over half as long as my front one, so I guess I must be using it quite a bit.

You need it for low speed control and 14,500 rpm is not something I have experienced :lol:

[Shaun Harris]

There's still plenty of cases where a slipper clutch isn't the entire answer. For instance, Taupo heading to the sweeper before the main straight I don't change up to fifth I just keep it in the same gear. But that means I get to the braking area with 14,000rpm on board and when I close the throttle and brake the engine momentarily locks the rear wheel, which causes the wheel to leave the ground for a split second because the shock is able to react a lot quicker than the slipper clutch. It repeats this a couple of times so it's the classic engine braking lock up problem until the slipper clutch reacts and cancels it out.

In that case the rear brake helps.

Either that or I fiddle the computer and take 3 degrees of ignition advance out over 12,500rpm @ 0% throttle, which is what I've done cos it's easier than learning to use the rear brake again :eek:











ok an old school technique to avoid the real wheel lock up due to engine breaking going down, SLIP the clutch? as in you do exactually the opposite to what you do with the clutch to get going to eradicate the engine breaking taking over the rear wheel actions. Even with slipper clutches it is some thing I still did up to the last time I was on a bike out of old habits and it is dam easy to do without pissing around with anything else and is so marginal on the usage of level of concentration left in the think tank it;s a no brainer to adapt too

[Robert Taylor]

ok an old school technique to avoid the real wheel lock up due to engine breaking going down, SLIP the clutch? as in you do exactually the opposite to what you do with the clutch to get going to eradicate the engine breaking taking over the rear wheel actions. Even with slipper clutches it is some thing I still did up to the last time I was on a bike out of old habits and it is dam easy to do without pissing around with anything else and is so marginal on the usage of level of concentration left in the think tank it;s a no brainer to adapt too

And I remember vividly you being practically the only person riding in the wet in a practice session at TerribleTonga back about 11-12 years ago. There were those in the pits saying ''whats that idiot doing riding out there in those conditions? ". But the reality is that you had the wet setup and practice time.

Our protestant God has dealt you some cruel blows in your build spec i.e hair colour, lack of vertical disposition and some attitudinal issues but you were so right in what you were doing that day

[Mental Trousers]

ok an old school technique to avoid the real wheel lock up due to engine breaking going down, SLIP the clutch? as in you do exactually the opposite to what you do with the clutch to get going to eradicate the engine breaking taking over the rear wheel actions. Even with slipper clutches it is some thing I still did up to the last time I was on a bike out of old habits and it is dam easy to do without pissing around with anything else and is so marginal on the usage of level of concentration left in the think tank it;s a no brainer to adapt too

Yeah that works too.

[suzuki21]

Slipper clutches make people lazy as they think they don't need to blip the throttle on down changes. Normal excuse is "I have a slipper clutch I don't need to. Enjoy thinking about the rear stepping out and screwing corner entry. The expensive shift kits blip the throttle automatically on down changes for no reason obviously.

[Shaun Harris]

Slipper clutches make people lazy as they think they don't need to blip the throttle on down changes. Normal excuse is "I have a slipper clutch I don't need to. Enjoy thinking about the rear stepping out and screwing corner entry. The expensive shift kits blip the throttle automatically on down changes for no reason obviously.









It's about making love not just rooting to us old folk when it comes to riding them writely and knowing which buttons to push obviously helps some thing that only Practice will make perfect

[Robert Taylor]

Slipper clutches make people lazy as they think they don't need to blip the throttle on down changes. Normal excuse is "I have a slipper clutch I don't need to. Enjoy thinking about the rear stepping out and screwing corner entry. The expensive shift kits blip the throttle automatically on down changes for no reason obviously.

And its another setup parameter

[GrayWolf]

I guess it's a sign of the times? We were taught to use BOTH brakes when coming to a stop, and some bikes (My old FJ1200 a good example) a trailing rear brake, was a good thing in medium tightness corners.

As for technical discussion, I can accept there could be argument on the racetrack for different rear brake applications, but Moto Guzzi for many years was the ONLY exponent of a linked brake system. I owned 2 of these, a Spada and an 1100 California. The system used 1 front and the rear on the rear brake and 1 front disc on the handlebar lever. It was weird at first to mainly use the rear pedal, but, there was no dive, the bike simply 'squatted' under braking, and the dive on application of the front lever as well was greatly reduced.
I believe Nonda has experimented with dual/linked brake systems? So there must be validity in the use of both in tandem.

[Shaun Harris]

I guess it's a sign of the times? We were taught to use BOTH brakes when coming to a stop, and some bikes (My old FJ1200 a good example) a trailing rear brake, was a good thing in medium tightness corners.

As for technical discussion, I can accept there could be argument on the racetrack for different rear brake applications, but Moto Guzzi for many years was the ONLY exponent of a linked brake system. I owned 2 of these, a Spada and an 1100 California. The system used 1 front and the rear on the rear brake and 1 front disc on the handlebar lever. It was weird at first to mainly use the rear pedal, but, there was no dive, the bike simply 'squatted' under braking, and the dive on application of the front lever as well was greatly reduced.
I believe Nonda has experimented with dual/linked brake systems? So there must be validity in the use of both in tandem.









Most things have been experimented with regarding brakes man, I know a guy who was employed by triumph uk for a period of 2 years just working on brake systems. Tandem linked brakes and ABS brakes to me on a motorbike are not the way to go, as I know for sure I can stop faster on NON ABS brakes than I can with them, but as an reasnoable ex racer I prob have better braking skills than your average road rider.

[Drew]

Most things have been experimented with regarding brakes man, I know a guy who was employed by triumph uk for a period of 2 years just working on brake systems. Tandem linked brakes and ABS brakes to me on a motorbike are not the way to go, as I know for sure I can stop faster on NON ABS brakes than I can with them, but as an reasnoable ex racer I prob have better braking skills than your average road rider.

You know for sure? You've tested on a bike and proven it?

I know for sure that I should be able to outbrake ABS, I've been told I'm wrong and I can't find a single video of anyone beating an ABS bike in stopping distance.

[quickbuck]

Most things have been experimented with regarding brakes man, I know a guy who was employed by triumph uk for a period of 2 years just working on brake systems. Tandem linked brakes and ABS brakes to me on a motorbike are not the way to go, as I know for sure I can stop faster on NON ABS brakes than I can with them, but as an reasnoable ex racer I prob have better braking skills than your average road rider.




Actually Shaun, you would stop at the same rate...... ABS is not a cleaver thing that thinks you are stopping too quickly and releases the brake pressure on you.....

What it does is detects when a wheel stops rotating and then releases pressure to allow it to rotate.

So if you brake and never lock a wheel then ABS will never kick in.


It is there so you can still stop the motorcycle if your only option is to ride down the wet paint....



Sent from my Nokia using Tapa talk.

[Shaun Harris]

You know for sure? You've tested on a bike and proven it?

I know for sure that I should be able to outbrake ABS, I've been told I'm wrong and I can't find a single video of anyone beating an ABS bike in stopping distance.




3 years ago on the road but cannot remember what the bikes were that I compared but they were very simillar but not identical

[oneofsix]

You know for sure? You've tested on a bike and proven it?

I know for sure that I should be able to outbrake ABS, I've been told I'm wrong and I can't find a single video of anyone beating an ABS bike in stopping distance.

I've seen a non-ABS bike out brake ABS, but I have also seen the opposite when the guy on the non-ABS bike was a bit tied after a day on riding, both the same two guys on the same two bikes. When a good rider is on the top of their game they can out brake ABS but given the advantage ABS gives overall I would still go with it if I had the choice.

[Shaun Harris]

I've seen a non-ABS bike out brake ABS, but I have also seen the opposite when the guy on the non-ABS bike was a bit tied after a day on riding, both the same two guys on the same two bikes. When a good rider is on the top of their game they can out brake ABS but given the advantage ABS gives overall I would still go with it if I had the choice.







To be honest, I too agree with the ABS system for most riders

[suzuki21]

Most things have been experimented with regarding brakes man, I know a guy who was employed by triumph uk for a period of 2 years just working on brake systems. Tandem linked brakes and ABS brakes to me on a motorbike are not the way to go, as I know for sure I can stop faster on NON ABS brakes than I can with them, but as an reasnoable ex racer I prob have better braking skills than your average road rider.

I agree Shaun. For the people that doubt this can be possible, can they explain what would happen when braking down a hill? Chris Seaton can after jumping on the Trinder Superbike from his earlier model RSV4 on boxing day. What happens is that when your rear end lifts above the ground a little your ABS releases braking pressure and you enter the corner to fast and hit hay bales. It got disconnected very quickly after that so he could brake harder. I would say that ABS is more useful to a rider that snatches the lever and the front locks when wet. But that's not through poor braking performance, that's from a poor habit.

[Shaun Harris]

I agree Shaun. For the people that doubt this can be possible, can they explain what would happen when braking down a hill? Chris Seaton can after jumping on the Trinder Superbike from his earlier model RSV4 on boxing day. What happens is that when your rear end lifts above the ground a little your ABS releases braking pressure and you enter the corner to fast and hit hay bales. It got disconnected very quickly after that so he could brake harder. I would say that ABS is more useful to a rider that snatches the lever and the front locks when wet. But that's not through poor braking performance, that's from a poor habit.







exactually Steve, and most road riders in an emergency would snatch at the break leaver as the do not practice emergency stops so naturally a panick mode kicks in causing them to snatch the brake leaver/s

[quickbuck]

exactually Steve, and most road riders in an emergency would snatch at the break leaver as the do not practice emergency stops so naturally a panick mode kicks in causing them to snatch the brake leaver/s






You are correct, most would, as most road riders think they know better than to do the course.....



I still maintain that you would stop exactly as quickly on an identical bike with ABS as you would on one without..... It is just a case of you won't actually be using the system.



What happened to Seato is a little bit of a guess in my opinion.



Hey, I too wasn't a fan of ABS. Then it was pointed out that it is the same as traction control.... Can riders ride faster without it?

A well set up bike will not have it cut in so early, as there will be no need for it to....

Granted, it will cut in later and provide traction. But a poorly set up bike will rely on it earlier.
Same thing happens if I put cheap tyres on the car in both ABS and Traction Control. Suspension tends to be constant on most cars....





Sent from my Nokia using Tapa talk.

[Ocean1]

You know for sure? You've tested on a bike and proven it?

I know for sure that I should be able to outbrake ABS, I've been told I'm wrong and I can't find a single video of anyone beating an ABS bike in stopping distance.

Here's another one that won't prove your point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dYvV4zr7iE

Look at 4:50. It's a sales tool, so you can take it with a grain of salt if you like, but the latest systems are an awful lot better than the last generation, which in turn were better than almost every pro racer tested.

[suzuki21]

You are correct, most would, as most road riders think they know better than to do the course.....

What happened to Seato is a little bit of a guess in my opinion.

Sent from my Nokia using Tapa talk.

The ABS kicked in when weight was transferring to the front, the lever pushed out and he went wide, he braked as he would on the other bike without ABS. I didn't guess, I was the one that disconnected it for him. He had no confidence using it at all he wanted to tell the bike what to do - not the other way round.

[quickbuck]

The ABS kicked in when weight was transferring to the front, the lever pushed out and he went wide, he braked as he would on the other bike without ABS. I didn't guess, I was the one that disconnected it for him. He had no confidence using it at all he wanted to tell the bike what to do - not the other way round.




Oh, I see.....
A confidence issue. THAT is important too. Not saying he had an issue with ability at all.
I would say that the rate of deceleration was the same as normal though, for that exact situation..... Extremely hard to prove though as you need to ride over the exact same piece of road at the exact same speed applying the exact same pressure rah de rah to prove or disprove it.....

Yes confidence in machinery takes a higher priority than any aids.





Sent from my Nokia using Tapa talk.

[Mental Trousers]

The thing with what happened to Seato was the ABS kicked in when the rear end left the ground. He was probably quite happy with the back end in air a bit and not bothered by it at all, but the ABS was programmed to keep both wheels on the ground and doing roughly the same speed.

Reprogramming the computer would be able to sort it out and race ABS systems that are being developed usually take this sort of thing into account.

[quickbuck]

The thing with what happened to Seato was the ABS kicked in when the rear end left the ground. He was probably quite happy with the back end in air a bit and not bothered by it at all, but the ABS was programmed to keep both wheels on the ground and doing roughly the same speed.

Reprogramming the computer would be able to sort it out and race ABS systems that are being developed usually take this sort of thing into account.

Ah, true that....
See it clearly now that I am awake and not scrolling through my phone......

[scracha]

exactually Steve, and most road riders in an emergency would snatch at the break leaver as the do not practice emergency stops so naturally a panick mode kicks in causing them to snatch the brake leaver/s

Practise all you like. If you're riding along minding your own business and a truck unexpectedly pulled out in front of you I guarantee you would (at least initially) grab a handful and stomp on the rear.

[nzspokes]

Im kinda interested in this topic as at my last track day the instructor said to try a little rear brake to stabilize the bike as you go into turn 5 at Hampton.

I didnt as I had only just got the bike and found I couldnt get to the rear brake while hanging of it(well my version of hanging off at least).

[codgyoleracer]

yes Tony I think is is. it actually does help reduce speed which is what it was intended for, so based on that alone, it most deff has a place still for racers and road raiders as a safety control. A smidgeon of time gained on each corner entry adds up after 6 or so breaking turns compounding on lap after lap till end of race.


Thats correct, i "discovered" this for myself as a young fellah at Pukekohe trying to slow down for the 50kph hairpin from 280 clicks, - the rear brake slowed the inertia of the rear wheel and whilst the grip available from the rear is far less due to it only "just" being on contact with the track surface , I found i could brake 5m - 10m later consistently by using a little bit of rear brake.

The geometry affects that Shaun talks about are also valuable in many other types of corners (or inbetween a series of corners)

The only problem with recommending its use, is that most rear brake system lack "feel" and unless you understand cause and effect - it can be a "tough lesson" to learn if you get it wrong.

Personally i avoid the use of rear brake in the wet - as i never had enough "feel" for its effect, - and the downsides were far worse than the upsides. (or should that be lowsides :-) )

[codgyoleracer]

The ABS kicked in when weight was transferring to the front, the lever pushed out and he went wide, he braked as he would on the other bike without ABS. I didn't guess, I was the one that disconnected it for him. He had no confidence using it at all he wanted to tell the bike what to do - not the other way round.

Its becoming a minefield now Steve, with electronic front suspenion not far of being "affordable " on production machines that can stop that sorta thing happening before it becomes an issue. Dammed electronics, love en or hate em, they will keep improving and will even make the super-fast guys like Seato faster , and the average guys feel "safer" :-)

[Shaun Harris]

rear brake with to much power or lack of feal as some may put it, bleed AIR into the system so it works as a chassis ballancing tool,but not enough power to lock up the rear wheel but will still help reduce speed as it is intended

[nzspokes]

rear brake with to much power or lack of feal as some may put it, bleed AIR into the system so it works as a chassis ballancing tool,but not enough power to lock up the rear wheel but will still help reduce speed as it is intended

Would cutting out sections of the pads do the same thing and keep lever feel?

[Shaun Harris]

Would cutting out sections of the pads do the same thing and keep lever feel?








I would never fuk with the structure of some thing designed by engineers man like pads, so cannot say yes or no as I have never tried that, but my guess would be NO as it still has the pressure in the line

[nzspokes]

I would never fuk with the structure of some thing designed by engineers man like pads, so cannot say yes or no as I have never tried that, but my guess would be NO as it still has the pressure in the line

To be clear i was thinking slotting the pad material to reduce pad contact patch with the rotor not cut chunks out of the pad back plate.

But I guess this may not work.

[codgyoleracer]

To be clear i was thinking slotting the pad material to reduce pad contact patch with the rotor not cut chunks out of the pad back plate.

But I guess this may not work.

Yep, been there done that, it seems to work well + buy the cheapest crap rear pads you can find

[Drew]

rear brake with to much power or lack of feal as some may put it, bleed AIR into the system so it works as a chassis ballancing tool,but not enough power to lock up the rear wheel but will still help reduce speed as it is intendedYou're joking right?

You wan't to add something that expands when heated, to a system that gets fucken hot?

Down sizing the master cylinder gives more 'feel' (and braking power some might be surprised to learn), and doesn't end with constant binding and a smoking hot disk.

[Shaun Harris]

You're joking right?

You wan't to add something that expands when heated, to a system that gets fucken hot?

Down sizing the master cylinder gives more 'feel' (and braking power some might be surprised to learn), and doesn't end with constant binding and a smoking hot disk.





No I am not, and this technique won me many nz races as well as 2x TT wins and my technique is free, just what all kiwi tight arses want haha

[george formby]

No I am not, and this technique won me many nz races as well as 2x TT wins and my technique is free, just what all kiwi tight arses want haha

Really enjoyin this thread. Never been on a track but I have learned to use the rear brake religiously when I ride. A combination of big, senseless feet, thick soles & a plastic back tire had me leaving darkies all over Northland initially.
A bit of time with a racer setting my bike up properly & adjusting levers to where they work as I want them too has made a world of difference. No more accidental lock ups & more consistency braking.

That's it from the cheap seats. As you were.

[Shaun Harris]

Really enjoyin this thread. Never been on a track but I have learned to use the rear brake religiously when I ride. A combination of big, senseless feet, thick soles & a plastic back tire had me leaving darkies all over Northland initially.
A bit of time with a racer setting my bike up properly & adjusting levers to where they work as I want them too has made a world of difference. No more accidental lock ups & more consistency braking.

That's it from the cheap seats. As you were.









A huge part of it as you say is setting up the leavers into positions that work for you as we are all different, kinda like suspension set up

[george formby]

A huge part of it as you say is setting up the leavers into positions that work for you as we are all different, kinda like suspension set up

It's taken me 30 years to learn that. :facepalm:

[Mental Trousers]

Would cutting out sections of the pads do the same thing and keep lever feel?

It's dodgy doing that cos you risk the pad breaking up and chunks jamming.


rear brake with to much power or lack of feal as some may put it, bleed AIR into the system so it works as a chassis ballancing tool,but not enough power to lock up the rear wheel but will still help reduce speed as it is intended

I had a bike with 6 pots that was much better with old brake fluid that hadn't been bled. As soon as the brake fluid was changed and the system bled the brakes were really touchy and had no feel at all. It had braided lines on it and changing back to rubber lines made a huge improvement in the feel and confidence levels.

A little bit of give, whether it's air/the lines/old fluid/whatever, is actually a good thing sometimes.

NOTE I don't recommend trying anything like this. Improving the brakes is (almost) always better and safer.

[Dave-]

Ok, wise guys.

What about using the rear brake to slow the rear wheel down?

It represents one of the largest (if not the largest) gyroscopic forces on the bike, therefore it really doesn't want to lean over. This is irrespective of its contact with the ground.

[george formby]

Ok, wise guys.

What about using the rear brake to slow the rear wheel down?

It represents one of the largest (if not the largest) gyroscopic forces on the bike, therefore it really doesn't want to lean over. This is irrespective of its contact with the ground.

We practice moto gymkhana and use the rear brake to control speed.
Both brakes to slow down & start turn, front released as lean angle & lock increases, maintain revs, rear brake still on to hit apex, release to stand bike up. Works like a charm! No clutch used. No extra throttle until bike starts to stand up.
Brake & disc gets really hot if you don't release it properly...

[Dave-]

We practice moto gymkhana and use the rear brake to control speed.
Both brakes to slow down & start turn, front released as lean angle & lock increases, maintain revs, rear brake still on to hit apex, release to stand bike up. Works like a charm! No clutch used. No extra throttle until bike starts to stand up.
Brake & disc gets really hot if you don't release it properly...

What's the top and average speed one might achieve in gymkhana?

Your gyroscopic effect might be negligible (purely conjecture, I haven't even worked out the angular momentum)

[Mental Trousers]

A video of Nicky Hayden pissing about on the 2013 Ducati Hypermotard. Most interesting is how often he's slipping the clutch, not only into corners like a mechanical slipper clutch does, but all the way through the entire corner and on the exit as well.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Stmu0PEUQX4&feature=youtu.be

[10bikekid]

Practise all you like. If you're riding along minding your own business and a truck unexpectedly pulled out in front of you I guarantee you would (at least initially) grab a handful and stomp on the rear.

Happened to me and I did pretty much that,

Was travelling at about 110kph on my KTM950ADV when the truck that had pulled to the shoulder (presumable to let us by) turned in on me, I went into Survival shut-down and was really a passenger, my instincts acted while I just saw still frames of the event like time had slowed down and as I slowed I had to turn to miss the side of the truck while still braking in panic mode eventually the front locked but was nearly at a stop and bike flopped onto the hard side pannier and skidded along a little, I ended up staring at the face of the bewilder driver who seemed more freaked out than me, had about 1 metre to spare and did lock both wheels a bit but lived.

My riding buddies who were behind couldn't pull up in front of me (cause they weren't going to die) and shot past the truck on the other side, had to stop them tearing the driver to bits and to explain how I was able to stop so quick

Sometimes you gota do what you got to do and as Glen said Both brakes seemed to work

[Shaun Harris]

A video of Nicky Hayden pissing about on the 2013 Ducati Hypermotard. Most interesting is how often he's slipping the clutch, not only into corners like a mechanical slipper clutch does, but all the way through the entire corner and on the exit as well.












The clutch has more usage than the average rider realises man. Doohan lived on it to control wheel spin

[richban]

The clutch has more usage than the average rider realises man. Doohan lived on it to control wheel spin

On sunday I was really wanting to go through Pepsi a gear up. It was just not happening as the 2 smoke was just out of its happy place. I thought I should just man up and go really fast in, but that ended in some rumble strip action and getting smoked. So bring in some nice clutch abuse and it was all coming together. Must buy some more plates. Its gunna get a hammering.

Didn't touch the rear brake all day. ha ha. Will try that next time.

[george formby]

What's the top and average speed one might achieve in gymkhana?

Your gyroscopic effect might be negligible (purely conjecture, I haven't even worked out the angular momentum)

:laugh:Speed? What is this you speak of?
Gymkhana is slow. Prolly never get over 60kmh & turns are 15-20 kmh but full lock & full lean. Gyroscopic effect increases with speed but it is there regardless.
One of the things taught is that what works at 20kph also works at 120kph etc.

[cowpoos]

I used just before applying the front to lower the rear as much as poss to aid keeping rear on ground whilst heavy breaking,

Yep...a lot of dirt riders hit the rear just before the front too. Helps the bike [dirt bike that is] track while braking into a corner in that case. You example makes plenty of sense.

I had a bad track habbit [so I was told] of holding the rear brake on a bit till I was well out of the corner...used to help with sudden wheel spin on dirt bike...was just a habbit I carried on with in my mediocre racing.

[Urano]

I was thinking about trying to use the rear brake again.


:shit: AGH-AIN??? in this forum you can find at least a dozillion threads on this...
i'm getting pretty confused: what the rear brake has been proved guilty of, down there???

just think that Stoner had a ventilated disc. on the rear wheel. why, if it's so useless?


when you apply rear brake, rear of bike lowers or squats




Open throttle suspension squats which tightens chain


ehm... actually... open throttle and your ass goes UP, THEN the front fork will raise. but the rear goes up first...
the rear goes down when you brake, right as you said before. :niceone:

and that's the reason why you should open throttle while turning...




Open throttle this happens:
The primary gear pulls on the chain. The reaction is that the rear sprocket gets pulled closer to the engine (As the tyre has the weight of the bike and rider to PUSH along).
This usually means the rear of the bike actually RISES..... unless something else is done to the suspension or geometry to prevent this from happening.....

exactly.
more over, it happens also because the pivot is usually higher than the rear wheel axis. remember rear wheel has action and counter reaction on the ground contact point and its axis. the bike goes up like the swingarm was an idraulic jack...



With the advent of slipper clutches, is rear braking so important coming into corners now?

you're confusing apples with pears as we say...
rear brake is needed to balance your chassis geometry and helping you to get maximum breakin power from the front wheel.
slippy clutch has another use, which is not to have the rear wheel locked (with the following slippy and shitty control while you're leaning the bike) if you downshift too quickly, or equally not to have the engine rocked to the limiter if the rear wheel doesn't slip...

so yes, it's still useful.



As for technical discussion, I can accept there could be argument on the racetrack for different rear brake applications, but Moto Guzzi for many years was the ONLY exponent of a linked brake system.
[...]
I believe Nonda has experimented with dual/linked brake systems? So there must be validity in the use of both in tandem.

honda has more than experimented. they sold combined braking equipped bikes for years.
i kinda hated it.
it was a mechanical (well, hydro-mechanical) linkage that connected front and rear calipers.
it was effective in reducing the front pitch down, but it always seemed to me a little... "late" in its functioning.
i'm pretty happy they discontinued it, even because nowadays it's way simpler to implement such a function through abs...



Tandem linked brakes and ABS brakes to me on a motorbike are not the way to go, as I know for sure I can stop faster on NON ABS brakes than I can with them, but as an reasnoable ex racer I prob have better braking skills than your average road rider.

no you can't.
and i don't know you personally nor i am questioning your value as a racer.
i'm only sure you can't.
i can give you the benefit of doubt ONLY if you're talkin of 25 lapses in a race.

if otherwise you're trying to tell us that you're capable of maintaining that amount of focus and stress 24/7/365 for the 100 years i wish you to live on a bike, then know you simply are not.





Ok, wise guys.
What about using the rear brake to slow the rear wheel down?
It represents one of the largest (if not the largest) gyroscopic forces on the bike, therefore it really doesn't want to lean over. This is irrespective of its contact with the ground.

remember the rear wheel has a degree of liberty less than the front.
gyro effect of rear wheel is what makes you turn (together with rheonomic reaction, that's the grip of the front wheel on the ground...).



Twostrokes?
I'm sorry you lost me. What are these demon machines of which you speak?
The past, present and future is the four stroke engine only......
ducking now

you'd better do... :lol::lol::lol:
http://www.suzukicycles.org/photos/RGV/RGV250-Gamma/1992_RGV250_blwhite_630.jpg
:love::love::love::love::heart:

[avgas]

I usually use both on most occasions. But it might be down to a bad habit I formed by owning bikes with shitty tyres. (Grab the front brake too much and you slide out of control).

[F5 Dave]

. . .

no you can't.
and i don't know you personally nor i am questioning your value as a racer.
i'm only sure you can't.
i can give you the benefit of doubt ONLY if you're talkin of 25 lapses in a race. . .
Yeah good call. the kind of races that lightweight was entering only did about 3 laps, 6 at most:msn-wink:. Quite a few corners mind.

[trustme]

Stop stirring :nono:

:girlfight: It will be along shortly