Give me some tips for riding in the rain!

[biketimus_prime]

I've been riding for a month and a bit now. Done about 3000km in that time, but I've done less than 100 in the wet, where it has rained then started to dry and/or the roads are damp. Not on actual wet roads.
Today I had to go drop some videos off and it was raining, I thought what the hell might as well take the bike and go for a ride at the same time. I wasn't sure how much I could lean, where to position myself to allow for minimal lean but better cornering and what other things to watch out for.
I tiptoed around for the first 10km or so. Nervous as hell.
Finally after I started getting the hang of things and leaning a bit more etc I come up to a roundabout and as I'm braking my rear wheel locks up and I get a decent amount of sideways action. Thankfully I remained calm and eased off the back brake while holding the front so I didn't sail through the roundabout and actually came to a stop right at the line. I attribute that to lots of pushbike riding in the rain and doing little skids on them for fun. But it's just scary on a bike.
I then went to an empty road and actually practiced locking up my rear wheel and trying to control the slide while braking front and rear and seeing how much force I needed and how it felt when I was in control. But I imagine I'd be screwed if it happened in an emergency.

So a couple of questions for wet weather, before I learn bad habits.

Should I use my rear brake when coming to a stop?
Should I use my rear brake as I slow down entering a corner?
Should I use my rear brake if I need to rub off a bit of speed mid-corner? (Hopefully I never enter it too hot to do that though!)
Are motorbikes prone to locking up the rear wheel if you mess up a downshift? (letting out clutch too suddenly, over revving etc)
What else should I watch out for? What are some good practices such as lane positioning, when to open the throttle etc

Any other advice also appreciated. Thanks in advance!

[jellywrestler]

I've been riding for a month and a bit now. Done about 3000km in that time, but I've done less than 100 in the wet, where it has rained then started to dry and/or the roads are damp. Not on actual wet roads.
Today I had to go drop some videos off and it was raining, I thought what the hell might as well take the bike and go for a ride at the same time. I wasn't sure how much I could lean, where to position myself to allow for minimal lean but better cornering and what other things to watch out for.
I tiptoed around for the first 10km or so. Nervous as hell.
Finally after I started getting the hang of things and leaning a bit more etc I come up to a roundabout and as I'm braking my rear wheel locks up and I get a decent amount of sideways action. Thankfully I remained calm and eased off the back brake while holding the front so I didn't sail through the roundabout and actually came to a stop right at the line. I attribute that to lots of pushbike riding in the rain and doing little skids on them for fun. But it's just scary on a bike.
I then went to an empty road and actually practiced locking up my rear wheel and trying to control the slide while braking front and rear and seeing how much force I needed and how it felt when I was in control. But I imagine I'd be screwed if it happened in an emergency.

So a couple of questions for wet weather, before I learn bad habits.

Should I use my rear brake when coming to a stop?
Should I use my rear brake as I slow down entering a corner?
Should I use my rear brake if I need to rub off a bit of speed mid-corner? (Hopefully I never enter it too hot to do that though!)
Are motorbikes prone to locking up the rear wheel if you mess up a downshift? (letting out clutch too suddenly, over revving etc)
What else should I watch out for? What are some good practices such as lane positioning, when to open the throttle etc

Any other advice also appreciated. Thanks in advance!
with question like this it sounds like you need some rider training, it's a bit hard to just say yes or no one really needs to ride under a watchful eye and develop their riding from there.

[biketimus_prime]

I've completed the ride forever bronze course and it was great. I learnt a lot of riding skills from it but it was only in the dry.
I'm just looking for advice/tips on what you guys look out for and do, that will save me time by not having to find them out myself, if you know what I mean. Like a situation happens and only after it am I like "ohh that's what I should do next time". But rather get the advice on here first!

[haydes55]

The shiniest part of the road is the slipperiest.

Use the rear brake the same as you use your front brake in the rain. Less pressure. If it's locked up, you've braked too hard.

Leaning the bike over is a personal thing, I have no idea what tires you have, what pressures, how worn they are etc. But basically, lean over less than you would in the dry. Focus more on making sure you are slow enough at corner entry, smoothly go around the corner.

No abrupt movements. No cracking open the throttle, no grabbing either brake, no hard counter steering. Just smooth controls, roll on the gas, squeeze the brakes so you get a feel of it etc.

I don't know if this is right or not, but I try ride in the center of the lane, the wheel tracks look shinier (for the most part) so I presume middle of the lane is grippier.

[Jantar]

......
So a couple of questions for wet weather, before I learn bad habits.

Should I use my rear brake when coming to a stop?
Should I use my rear brake as I slow down entering a corner?
Should I use my rear brake if I need to rub off a bit of speed mid-corner? (Hopefully I never enter it too hot to do that though!)
Are motorbikes prone to locking up the rear wheel if you mess up a downshift? (letting out clutch too suddenly, over revving etc)
What else should I watch out for? What are some good practices such as lane positioning, when to open the throttle etc

Any other advice also appreciated. Thanks in advance!
Yes, you should still use your rear brake, but only to control rear wheel speed, not to actually lock your wheel, or to stop. Your front brake is still the most important one. I tend to use the rear break only to supplement the front one.
If you need to rub off a bit of speed mid corner, then you have already messed up. Use both brakes in moderation if needed to reduce your speed prior to entering the corner. In wet conditions you should be reducing throttle a bit earlier than you normally would to give yourself more time to observe the road conditions and choose the best line through the corner.
Motorcycles are not prone to locking the rear wheel on a downshift. There maybe a momentary loss of traction if you shift down too many gears too rapidly, but a true rear wheel lock with the clutch engaged is almost impossible as that would mean the engine has stopped.
As haydes55 said, avoid the shiny parts of the road. That includes painted lines.

[skippa1]

Plan ahead
use your gearbox to control your speed rather than brakes( you still need the brakes but select your gear and shift down to scrub off speed)
if you are too tentative you will be too tense, you need to relax
after long periods of fine weather it can take a while for the oil etc to wash off
you still have more than acceptable levels of traction on a wet road
beware of wet manhole covers and painted lines they are slippery
Ride in the wheel tracks, they have less oil etc on them
dont forget to look ahead so you can see the hazards coming
if you look right in front of you at the road, you will run over the bits you are scared of and looking at( target fixation)
get out there and ride in the wet......often
enjoy it, it can be fun


ps.....avoid sudden movements, acceleration and or braking. Smooth is king

[pritch]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/51556-Reflections?highlight=reflections

[Milts]

Riding in the rain is the same as riding in the dry, but with less traction.

Less traction will just exacerbate any action or mistake, so just do everything gently and you'll be fine. Some key points (100% personal opinion, I am no expert):



Don't brake hard unless you really have to - steady, early braking is the way to go.
Avoid sudden throttle changes. Just be smooth and gentle on the gas.
Don't go hooning into corners, and lean the bike however it feels comfortable. Just don't carry lots of corner speed and don't expect it to grip forever.
Check your tyres. Some are great in the wet and some are average.
Tyres will not warm up as much in the wet, so where grip might improve after 5 minutes riding in the dry, the same is not true in the wet.
Hazards become more hazardous - manhole covers etc especially.
Increase following distance & your safety margin when it comes to braking.


The other thing to remember is that weather impacts visibility and other road users. Watch out for people pulling out on you because their widows are wet/fogged.

Asking questions and consciously improving your riding is probably the most important thing; just be aware of what you are doing and why, and you should be fine.

[biketimus_prime]

Thanks for the advice so far everyone :)
That reflections thread was great. I do find my visor fogs up frequently if I ride slow so I have to crack it open a bit, but then the wind gets in my eyes. What is a good proven way to stop fogging? I am afraid to put any chemical stuff on my visor as I hear many things can ruin the plastic. Does the potato thing work?

I often get told not to ride on wet white lines or manhole covers. Problem is, some manhole covers are really hard to see until you're right up to them!

I definitely have to be smoother in my actions though. I still get the odd jerky gear change up and down, and throttle jerk. It could be my undoing on a rainy day :facepalm:

[strandedinnz]

Thanks for the advice so far everyone :)
That reflections thread was great. I do find my visor fogs up frequently if I ride slow so I have to crack it open a bit, but then the wind gets in my eyes. What is a good proven way to stop fogging? I am afraid to put any chemical stuff on my visor as I hear many things can ruin the plastic. Does the potato thing work?

I often get told not to ride on wet white lines or manhole covers. Problem is, some manhole covers are really hard to see until you're right up to them!

I definitely have to be smoother in my actions though. I still get the odd jerky gear change up and down, and throttle jerk. It could be my undoing on a rainy day :facepalm:

Ummm .. personally I'd not rub potato juice on my visor (or anywhere else for that matter) .. get a helmet with a pin lock system in it .. amazing invention that I hope whoever dreamt up is bathing in money as his/her reward!

Don't be over afraid of the wet white lines or man hole covers, if they are on the straight they are not a bother (unless you are doing epic scale acceleration), it's on the corners where they cause issues, especially adverse cambers, the road builders are usually not the smartest guys on earth "oh what a great idea let's stick a drain cover on this adverse camber, what could possible go wrong!"

One thing to check to ease the jerkiness of your riding .. make sure the bike is all lubed up (the clutch and throttle cables, brake levers etc) its way to do fine throttle/clutch work when the bike is all buttery smooth itself with nothing sticking inline on the cables :-)

[unstuck]

Dont let your balls get wet, very distracting.:yes:

[caspernz]

Keep it smooth. Get onto a proper rider training course. Watch a couple of Youtube clips from the UK Police training center.

But get onto a course, no amount of keyboard jockey advice is gonna give you the confidence and knowledge you gain on a training course :woohoo:

[nzspokes]

Buy good tyres

[Tigadee]

Today I had to go drop some videos off and it was raining, I thought what the hell might as well take the bike and go for a ride at the same time. Nervous as hell. Any other advice also appreciated. Thanks in advance!

This guy is great:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kv8cVOkfvTI
-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwIbaqgmAmM

I was really nervous when I first started riding in the rain. I sang to myself to take the edge off ("I'm riding in the rain, just riding in the the rain! What a glorious feeling, I'm braking again!"), then it became no big deal. In fact, avoiding getting soaked became more the issue than riding in the wet...

[James Deuce]

Stop over-thinking it. Take every opportunity to practice in lighter traffic.

Why are you locking your brakes up? Are you trying to have an avoidable accident? Brakes work best just before lock up.

[Pwalo]

[QUOTE=James Deuce;1130713593]Stop over-thinking it. Take every opportunity to practice in lighter traffic.

As Mr D says, lots and lots of practice. And get a pinlock insert for your helmet. These are brilliant in the wet, cold etc., and it really is important to have good vision in the wet (well any time really). Oh and practice.

[george formby]

The anti fog coating in my visor finally gave up the ghost recently causing a very cautious rainy ride. I applied Rain X anti fog during the week & it has worked perfectly, no fogging even early in the morning. I tested the rain x first by putting a bit on the part of the visor which attaches to the helmet in case it reacted or clouded the plastic. I also used to rub the inside of my visor with a skerrick of washing up liquid. One drop will put a thin layer over the inside of the visor. A gentle wipe with a tissue will remove any streaks & leave enough on to stop misting. Doesn't last forever but cheap & easy.
+1 on pin locks. Will be a must on any new hemlet I buy.

Most of the advice given so far is good. Strikes me with a lot of riders that the biggest problem is in their heads. Dwelling more on the fear of what could happen rather than on how to avoid it. The bike does not care about the weather and will not fall over unless you make it. Match your speed to your visibility & the slightly greater distance needed to brake or turn with a bit less lean angle. Focus on making all your inputs into the bike smooth. If you unsettle the bike by being tense or clunky your making an avoidable problem. A typical scenario would be the fear that you have come into a corner a little too fast for the road conditions & react by becoming tense then maybe trying to change your line, roll off the throttle, death grip on the bars, touch the brakes etc. The bike feels awful & you go rigid. Up until your brain went "eek" things were probably fine and staying relaxed and just riding through the corner would have been fine. Easier said than done, I know. But it is a mind set.
Was talking about riding in the wet with a rider who is very nervous of it on Sunday. It became apparent that our journey times were the same wet or dry despite the "oh, shit, it's raining" head game. Somebody here on KB pointed out that you end up riding smoother and consequently better as a precaution.
Maybe think of it as raining all the time & it won't be an issue.

[Erelyes]

+1 on getting some training.
+1 on Roadcraft Nottingham youtube vid.
+1 on being smoooooooth.
+1 on riding in wheel tracks where possible (less dirt)
+1 on avoiding potholes, etc (on corners particularly)
+1 on taking straight lines over slippery things (railway tracks, road markings).
+1 on pinlock (make that +1million, they are awesome)

Braking - it'll take longer to 'load up' the front with weight so be more gradual. You can still use the rear in the rain just fine.

If you overcook a corner, use the rear very gently and focus on where you want to go.

[Tigadee]

+1 on being smoooooooth.

Yeah, yeah! Be like...
http://www.quickmeme.com/img/0f/0fd5b902a8e8d0fbff27df13e82e4713d8fc2f1dbded9377e9 7c6e3286272f85.jpg

[biketimus_prime]

Funny about the balls getting wet, I got some leathers and the crotch area is spandex kinda stuff. That area was actually wet and freezing as well as my upper arms where it is also the same material and my fingers started freezing up a bit. Might get some winter gloves to wear over my leather ones from the warehouse.

I think I have decent tyres for riding, bridgestone battleaxe rear and sport demon front. My friend has shinkos and rides way faster than I can in the wet than I feel comfortable. Also I've lubed my clutch cable, it took ages as I just poured oil in bit by bit then moved the cable in and out :facepalm:, I'm going to buy one of these before doing my throttle cable to save some time and redo my clutch cable at the same time: http://www.motocrossparts.co.nz/motocross-parts-accessories.php?id=2912

Pinlock visors require drilling on the visor don't they? I'm thinking of getting this: http://www.fastbikegear.co.nz/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=786&products_id=1265
I was going to use RainX as I have heaps of it from my cage days, but RainX themselves don't recommend it being used on visors. I'll try a bit on a corner and see what happens seeing as you had some success George Formby.

That Roadcraft Nottingham guy is great! I've watched quite a few of his videos now. Thanks for showing me :D
When riding I always find myself tensed up eventually for no reason. I do it much less than when I started. But still happens. But I make a concious effort to ease up and let the bike do it's thing. Makes riding over the bridge on windy days a lot easier too!

[jellywrestler]

http://www.motocrossparts.co.nz/motocross-parts-accessories.php?id=2912[/url]


or make a wee funnel out of plastiscene or bluetack...

[James Deuce]

Pinlock visors require drilling on the visor don't they? I'm thinking of getting this: http://www.fastbikegear.co.nz/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=786&products_id=1265
I was going to use RainX as I have heaps of it from my cage days, but RainX themselves don't recommend it being used on visors. I'll try a bit on a corner and see

Pinlock inserts only require drilling if there isn't a visor already available for your helmet with the pins installed as standard. Google visor replacements for your helmet and see if they are available. Someone will suggest Fog Off inserts. If your visor already has an "anti-fog" coating you have to remove that first before you install it, which can be a mission.

There are heaps of sprays. They don't work as well as any of the inserts and anything with a detergent base will work as well as the sprays that you pay a reasonable amount for. Rub some washing up liquid on, wipe the excess off, let it dry, then give it a polish. Shaving cream works too. Don't use Rain-X it's anathema to polycarbonates. Pledge works well, but don't use the aerosol can variety, the propellants can damage polycarbonate visors. If you wear glasses DON'T use a breath mask it just directs your breath behind your glasses making the problem that much worse. I find a breath mask makes a visor fog worse than riding without, whether or not I'm wearing glasses or contacts.

[george formby]

or make a wee funnel out of plastiscene or bluetack...

The nozzles from poo gun tubes,. Oh, er, no more gaps or liquid nails

[Tigadee]

or make a wee funnel out of plastiscene or bluetack...

Like dis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgJWqjQ-leE

[Trade_nancy]

I'll slightly contradict one piece of advice given above - DON"T think that white lines/arrows are to be taken cautiously only when turning. These are potentially bad for you at any time...in the wet. e.g. if you approach an intersection behind a vehicle and start to brake....watch out for the lane marker arrow. If you are engaging your brake in the wet as you ride over one of these - you will get sideways. I now try to position myself left or right of my lane so as to avoid the arrows and any further stained undies..

[Jay GTI]

If you get the chance, go play on the dirt. You're in Auckland, so you could head down to thundercross and hire a bike, even join us on the 10th of May, when a bunch of roadies from work are heading down to brush up on their off-road skills, with a couple of us dirt monkeys joining in (PM me if you are keen).

You are essentially lacking in low to no grip experience and it's these skills you will be working on and picking up when you ride on dirt. I've been down there twice with roadies and have done the same with roadie mates in the UK. The biggest problem they all had was panicking and freezing when the bike lost grip, but after a little coaching, they learned to relax and correct. Still makes me laugh when a mate on one of the rides, an accomplished track rider, asked me how to stop the rear wheel from stepping out when giving it beans coming out of the corners... I asked him why the hell would he want to do that???

It's the "when things go wrong" skills you will learn, which would be stupid to practice on the road, especially if you like your bike and riding gear.

[TheDemonLord]

+1 for the 2 youtube vids - I watched them when I started riding - some top advice

[James Deuce]

Don't be put under pressure to keep up with your mate and don't assume that his tyres are the only thing that gives him the confidence to ride as fast as he does. He may just enjoy taking big risks. If your visibility is hampered don't be frightened to ride below the speed limit but just check you are not holding up traffic. When I struck heavy rain near Arthurs Pass I slowed down to 80ks. One thing the video does not cover is night riding where white lines and man hole covers can be hidden by the reflection in puddles from street lights so you have to be very careful at night. I must check out the pinlock visor myself. As for tyres I have always found internet reviews a good source of info. As I found in recent years my original fitted Metzler tyres were good in the wet I have bought Metzler again but years ago I used to have Bridgestone as original tyres and never had a fall in the wet on them either keeping in mind that all brands make tyres with varying suitability for wet roads.

How do YOU ride up Arthur's Pass when you've publicly stated that it is technically impossible to ride around a corner?

[Tigadee]

I'll slightly contradict one piece of advice given above - DON"T think that white lines/arrows are to be taken cautiously only when turning. These are potentially bad for you at any time...in the wet. e.g. if you approach an intersection behind a vehicle and start to brake....watch out for the lane marker arrow. If you are engaging your brake in the wet as you ride over one of these - you will get sideways.

I'm quite sure the advice applied only to when moving at a constant speed and a straight line only, you can ride over the white lines/arrows. They are to be avoided when cornering, accelerating or braking.

[george formby]

If you get the chance, go play on the dirt. You're in Auckland, so you could head down to thundercross and hire a bike, even join us on the 10th of May, when a bunch of roadies from work are heading down to brush up on their off-road skills, with a couple of us dirt monkeys joining in (PM me if you are keen).

You are essentially lacking in low to no grip experience and it's these skills you will be working on and picking up when you ride on dirt. I've been down there twice with roadies and have done the same with roadie mates in the UK. The biggest problem they all had was panicking and freezing when the bike lost grip, but after a little coaching, they learned to relax and correct. Still makes me laugh when a mate on one of the rides, an accomplished track rider, asked me how to stop the rear wheel from stepping out when giving it beans coming out of the corners... I asked him why the hell would he want to do that???

It's the "when things go wrong" skills you will learn, which would be stupid to practice on the road, especially if you like your bike and riding gear.

This is very good advice & a good opportunity. Odds on the day will come when you get a bit a sideways. Reacting instantly & correctly is the difference between a bin & a win. Mud teaches you this & makes you happy.:lol:
It's also exactly the reason I got my G/F a trailie to learn on. I believe the skills you learn in all forms of riding cross over & make you safer/betterer/more confident on the road.

[Banditbandit]

I.

Should I use my rear brake when coming to a stop?
Should I use my rear brake as I slow down entering a corner?
Should I use my rear brake if I need to rub off a bit of speed mid-corner? (Hopefully I never enter it too hot to do that though!)
Are motorbikes prone to locking up the rear wheel if you mess up a downshift? (letting out clutch too suddenly, over revving etc)
What else should I watch out for? What are some good practices such as lane positioning, when to open the throttle etc




Sometimes
Sometimes
No
Not all of them
Other road users ...

[biketimus_prime]

Cool I shall look into Pinlock visor options or even the visor inserts as I don't have an anti fog coating or anything. However I don't hold much hope as there is hardly anything available for my Box BX-1 helmet.
I do ride well within my limits even when there is a group of us and it's easy to get carried away. I think my younger days of being stupid in cars taught me it's not worth being a hero on the road.
I never realised how slippery the road is even when you put your boot down! I've had it slip on the manhole covers and I see what you guys mean about them being slippery!

Great youtube video thanks, that guy is really easy to follow. The other videos I watched though they only pulled the bottom of the cable out of the gearbox housing to expose the cable so all the dirt and oil runs out to a rag they place around it whereas this guy takes the whole cable out.

Thundercross looks good, I wouldn't mind going for it if I ever get the chance, maybe during uni holidays. Thank you for offering me the chance to join you guys :)

Oh one more thing, after riding in the wet like the guy in the video says, should I always lube my chain? Is it really that crucial?
Also my owners manual says to use light engine oil, otherwise the O-rings get damaged. However the last owner has been using this green and white castrol chain lube spray. It says it's safe for O-ring chains. The bike has a new DID X-ring chain installed too. Is the castrol spray ok? I lube my chain about every 400km as it is.

What other components should I tend to after riding in the rain? Should I wipe the bike down after I pull into the garage or let it just dry itself off.

[Banditbandit]

Oh one more thing, after riding in the wet like the guy in the video says, should I always lube my chain? Is it really that crucial?

I oil mine once a week - needs no more than that ..



Also my owners manual says to use light engine oil, otherwise the O-rings get damaged. However the last owner has been using this green and white castrol chain lube spray. It says it's safe for O-ring chains. The bike has a new DID X-ring chain installed too. Is the castrol spray ok? I lube my chain about every 400km as it is.


Any chain lube will be fine - I use wax, because I also use it on my boots to stop them squeeking ...



What other components should I tend to after riding in the rain? Should I wipe the bike down after I pull into the garage or let it just dry itself off.

Up to you - bikes are waterproof ..

[Tigadee]

I oil mine once a week - needs no more than that ..

That's generous! I do mine maybe once a month! :confused:

OP - I think the general advice is once every 500kms or when necessary, like after a wash or ridden through heavy rain.


Up to you - bikes are waterproof ..

But not rust-proof! :laugh:

[Metastable]

- soften your preload by 3 clicks and throw on some rain tires. :D Just kidding.

There is so much you could do, but here goes... and this is applicable for rain or dry.
- Smooth always... dry, wet, street, track, dirt... smooth.
- Practice, researching how the bike works is great, but the best thing you can do is practice. When I use to street ride I'd practice emergency braking on almost every ride. You should know how to emergency brake from whatever top speed you ride at. Like that if you need to brake from a high speed, you know what to expect. Of course, start from a slow speed and increase emergency braking speeds from there. FYI: It is possible to lock the front and release the front brakes before the front wheel tucks. At first, keep with dry practice (or dirt riding).
- IMO, the majority of the braking should be done with the front. If it isn't an emergency situation I might tap the rear to settle things down a little, but very little pressure. If it is an emergency, I immediately press on the rear brake fairly strongly while at the same time engaging the front. It takes only a short time for the front to load. As the front starts to load, I release the rear, because at that point the rear brake is doing next to nothing and will lock up very easily. In the wet, one might want to keep on the rear a bit longer, since it takes longer for the front wheel to load. Note on a cruiser, you might need to keep on the rear the entire time. On a sporty bike, no way.
- Yes you should have things all sorted out as you approach a corner, HOWEVER (and others will disagree on this) if you are going TOO FAST, you need to keep on braking until you have slowed down enough. Using the brakes is the only way to significantly reduce speed. Caveat: As you start to lean, you need to reduce the amount of brake pressure. I don't use my rear in a corner. If I want to brake in a corner, I have already started braking before the corner even started I am trailing it into the corner and at that point the rear has been released long ago. You can start to brake mid corner, but it is difficult.... you need to be smooth, but if you HAVE TO, it CAN be done.
- As far as getting use to low traction - dirt riding is excellent.
- You can read in the Survival Section about braking into a corner, tightening a line etc... there are a few threads that cover this.

The BEST thing you could do is a good track school. A track school isn't about becoming a racer, it is about learning skills at the track that will take you many many miles of road riding to learn. Plus, the track teachers can get you out of bad habits quickly.

AND: #1 Rule of motorcycle riding DO NOT TRY TO KEEP UP WITH ANYONE!!!! Ride your own ride.... unless you are racing at the track. :D

[Trade_nancy]

I'm quite sure the advice applied only to when moving at a constant speed and a straight line only, you can ride over the white lines/arrows. They are to be avoided when cornering, accelerating or braking.

uhhm,...maybe what the poster wanted to say - but not what was said...quote "only when cornering"......

[FJRider]

Thanks for the advice so far everyone :)
That reflections thread was great. I do find my visor fogs up frequently if I ride slow so I have to crack it open a bit, but then the wind gets in my eyes. What is a good proven way to stop fogging? I am afraid to put any chemical stuff on my visor as I hear many things can ruin the plastic. Does the potato thing work?

I often get told not to ride on wet white lines or manhole covers. Problem is, some manhole covers are really hard to see until you're right up to them!

I definitely have to be smoother in my actions though. I still get the odd jerky gear change up and down, and throttle jerk. It could be my undoing on a rainy day :facepalm:

The stuff to use on your visor is a product called Fog Off. Works a treat.

[Tigadee]

The stuff to use on your visor is a product called Fog Off.

How rude! Oh wait....

[Banditbandit]

That's generous! I do mine maybe once a month! :confused:

Habit - prolly 'cause I was commuting 110ks a day - or 550 ks a week - then you get your "every 500ks"


OP - I think the general advice is once every 500kms or when necessary, like after a wash or ridden through heavy rain.



But not rust-proof! :laugh:

See ..

[george formby]

Riding at open road speeds in heavy rain can have the same effect on your chain as water blasting it. Back in blighty I sometimes oiled mine daily. If not, when I got the bike out next day the rollers would be rusty.

I usually give my bike a wipe down if it gets home wet. No other reason than it's a very quick & easy way to keep it looking clean.

[Tigadee]

Habit - prolly 'cause I was commuting 110ks a day - or 550 ks a week - then you get your "every 500ks"

See ..

Si, si... :yes:

[biketimus_prime]

Thanks for the tips Metastable. I'm thinking of attending track days but I don't know how my GSX250 (only air cooled too) will handle it. I don't really want to flog a dying horse. It has only 37,000km on it but it's not a bike built for track work is it? It'd be like taking an old toyota corolla to the track...

Lane splitting in the rain, anyone had slippery encounters as they cross over white lines? I find myself going over them regularly as I go between cars and some guy won't move over enough to let me pass etc, never done it in the wet so far and as everyone is saying watch out for road markings, I don't want to dent someones door!

Supercheap has a sale on now, time to get some kerosene and more chain lube :headbang:

[pritch]

Lane splitting in the rain, anyone had slippery encounters as they cross over white lines? I find myself going over them regularly as I go between cars and some guy won't move over enough to let me pass etc, never done it in the wet so far and as everyone is saying watch out for road markings, I don't want to dent someones door.

You seem to be answering your own question?

[biketimus_prime]

Sorry what I'm getting at more is, has anyone had a bad encounter with white lines while lane splitting when it's wet? or do you guys go out of your way to try avoid crossing them at all :niceone:
I know it may sound like a stupid question but I'm curious as to how annoying these white lines are in the wet!

[george formby]

Sorry what I'm getting at more is, has anyone had a bad encounter with white lines while lane splitting when it's wet? or do you guys go out of your way to try avoid crossing them at all :niceone:

Yes. Not a bin but wheel spin on acceleration & front lock ups. Super slippy bits of road in UK citys.
Nowadays in the rain I only filter onto "good" road. It's hard enough in traffic figuring out what drivers are doing behind fogged windows & peering through a shit covered visor to add slippy bits of road to the mix. Well, for me any hoo.

[unstuck]

Sorry what I'm getting at more is, has anyone had a bad encounter with white lines while lane splitting when it's wet? or do you guys go out of your way to try avoid crossing them at all :niceone:
I know it may sound like a stupid question but I'm curious as to how annoying these white lines are in the wet!

Everything about cities and motorways sux, other than the fact that all those idiots are there and not on our nice quiet roads.:banana::banana:

[Metastable]

Thanks for the tips Metastable. I'm thinking of attending track days but I don't know how my GSX250 (only air cooled too) will handle it. I don't really want to flog a dying horse. It has only 37,000km on it but it's not a bike built for track work is it? It'd be like taking an old toyota corolla to the track...


Yeah - probably not the best track bike. Having said that, a motorcycle is a motorcycle. If the tires, brakes, brake lines, and suspension are in good order then you will still learn lots on any bike. Actually you will pick things up quicker on a smaller bike and those lessons do transfer to bigger bikes. There are CBR125 races in various places around the planet.... and in NZ you guys have the Bear Races which feature some small displacement classes. What I am getting at is that one can race almost anything.... and hence yes you could take your bike to the track for a school. I've seen a TTR-125 or 230 can't remember with dirt tires on a paved track. Don't worry about slowing others down or going "fast enough" (especially at a school). Plus if you have the slowest bike there you have no pressure. :D

Realize that even GP riders will ride little bikes like an XR100 (on dirt) to learn and keep their skills sharp. If you can take a track course, do it. Just make sure your bike is in good condition.

[Ender EnZed]

I'm thinking of attending track days but I don't know how my GSX250 (only air cooled too) will handle it. I don't really want to flog a dying horse. It has only 37,000km on it but it's not a bike built for track work is it? It'd be like taking an old toyota corolla to the track...

Riding it on the track will be just like riding it on the road only a lot more fun. It's just like a wide, winding road with short straights and no oncoming traffic.

Plenty of people take smaller and shittier bikes than yours to the track.

[biketimus_prime]

My friend was telling me how hard it is on his commute some days to know whether it was a bike lane splitting or the lights of a car behind him in his fogged up wing mirrors... That made me quite nervous haha.

I did want to take my bike on some learner days. I think there was a school run by some people who do it at pukekohe and hampton downs? Maybe I might and just not thrash the tits off it.

By the way another question (sorry for so many). I got a set of leathers recently. What cleaning tips can you guys offer? I read that beeswax can waterproof and condition it? So much conflicting advice online about washing it with water, just riding in the rain with them on (saw that on an old KB thread), alpinestars themselves said this:


Thank you very much for the inquiry. Since your Alpinestars technical garment is constructed primarily of leather, you should not wash this item with normal soap or water. We recommend using Lexol Leather Cleaner in combination with Lexol Leather Conditioner to prolong the life of your protective garment. For tough stains or debris, you can wipe the exterior of your garment with a microfiber cloth moistened with a diluted SimpleGreen solution. We hope you find this information helpful to keeping your Alpinestars technical apparel performing excellent for years to come. Feel free to contact us with any other questions or concerns.

The jacket label inside says not to clean it with water. What do you guys do? Surely some of you must have leathers that are probably decades old still in great condition, tell me your secrets!

[Metastable]

Leathers - The key thing is that you moisturize it. You might want to avoid something that is too slick around the seating area. Don't wash it with water. Sure if it is a dirty mess a damp cloth can help, after that, moisturize it.

[russd7]

wash leathers ?, never be a real biker if ya wash ya leathers.<_< , can't say i have ever washed me leathers and the only thing i use on them is sno seal, just used the last of my stash so not sure if it is still available, tried the bone dry stuff a heap easier to put on but no where as good as sno seal. i do turn them inside out to air them out tho

[pritch]

Sorry what I'm getting at more is, has anyone had a bad encounter with white lines while lane splitting when it's wet?

Sorry, what I'm getting at more is that you already seem to understand that filtering on white lines in the wet is a situation of elevated risk. You are right, it is.
Especially round Auckland, the fuckers are all mad. Ask Akzle. :whistle:

Leather care: you could seek out a saddlery shop, they sell stuff for cleaning and preserving leather. Stuff that has worked for centuries. Stuff like saddle soap and beeswax.

Kathmandu sell the Nikwax range. There must be about ten different bottles that only cost some $20.00 each. Find a sales person who looks like they have an IQ above room temperature, tell them exactly what you need, and you might get away with just a cleaner and a waterproofer.

None of which should be taken as saying I disapprove of Nikwax, I don't. I have a modest collection of those bottles myself.

I find SnoSeal a bit ummm industrial(?) for jackets and jeans. Might be great on boots though.

[russd7]

I find SnoSeal a bit ummm industrial(?) for jackets and jeans. Might be great on boots though.
yup pretty damned industrial and a pain to apply to the leather, best done in a conservatory with the sun streaming in but it keeps me dry and keeps the leather in good nic and doesn't bugger up the stitching, i really hate getting wet but i ride all weather, tho in even torrential rain i still pull on a pair of pvc over trou and chuck on teh drizabone riding coat, haven't found anything else to keep me as dry as that combo

[discotex]

Finally after I started getting the hang of things and leaning a bit more etc I come up to a roundabout and as I'm braking my rear wheel locks up and I get a decent amount of sideways action.


Sounds like you might be relying a little too much on the rear for your stopping power.

How much do you think you are using the front vs rear? 50/50 split? 95/5 split? 5/95 split?

[biketimus_prime]

Cheers guys I got this stuff: http://www.absorbine.com/products/leather-care/horsemans-one-step-cream Horsemans one step, the leathers look brand new and even took away the dirty marks all over it :D
I got told about that SnoSeal by a biker friend yesterday. Might hunt some down as it would be pretty cool to wear my leathers in the rain instead of my kevlar jeans with snowboard pants over it for waterproof!

Yeah I know Akzle hates auckland drivers, I see it in at least 1 thread every week. I'm surprised he hasn't come in here and told me to "Harden the fuck up and commute in your jandals and a tee in the rain idiot" or something along those lines.

As for braking, I think I used 90% front 10% rear as I'm coming to a place I have to stop at. If I am just brushing off speed for example coming up to lights that will go green soon I'll use the rear only 9 times out of 10. But I always have my front covered just in case. I never use just my front brake alone at any time.

[discotex]

There has been a lot of debate on braking in the Kiwi Biker forums and from what I have read there is no hard and fast rule but using the front on its own in the wet would not generally be advisable.

Why?

10chars

[biketimus_prime]

I use Oakwood Liquid Saddle Soap on my boots but do not have a leather jacket currently to try it on.

I was going to get saddle soap but to keep it all as cheap as possible the Horseman's stuff is one-step cleaner and protectant so it saves me having to wash the whole suit and have it dry etc. The stuff really did clean off the road grime and all though. The white on the suit is brighter than ever!


There has been a lot of debate on braking in the Kiwi Biker forums and from what I have read there is no hard and fast rule but using the front on its own in the wet would not generally be advisable.

I feel comfortable having the rear slide out and controlling that on the bike as I've done drifting/circuit racing my RWD car. The effect of countersteering to to go where you want is embedded in me. But never experienced the front wash out on a bike. Is it like understeering in a car? Never even done it when I used to mountain bike.
But as mentioned before, dirt track would be the best place to experience both. I'm just too broke at the moment to do it. Might just get the mountain bike out (after nearly 5 years!) and try some stuff.

As to "why" I've also been told by the instructors during my riding course and BHS to not brake with just the front in the wet to prevent it washing out. Rear is more controllable than the front they said.

[discotex]

As for braking, I think I used 90% front 10% rear as I'm coming to a place I have to stop at. If I am just brushing off speed for example coming up to lights that will go green soon I'll use the rear only 9 times out of 10. But I always have my front covered just in case. I never use just my front brake alone at any time.

If you are locking up the rear you're over using it. Chances are you're more like 70/30 or 50/50 and not trusting the front as much as you should.

Yes, if the front goes and you're not quick you will go down. Yes, saving a rear end lock up is a shit load easier. However, the rear does fuck all about stopping you before you hit something hard. It does even less in the wet.

Find a good (safe) spot and do some emergency stopping with just the front until you are happy to properly lean on the front. Then add in just enough rear that it doesn't lock up. That could be virtually 0% rear brake if you have a proper sports bike. Could be 50% rear if it's a cruiser.

[skippa1]

I was going to get saddle soap but to keep it all as cheap as possible the Horseman's stuff is one-step cleaner and protectant so it saves me having to wash the whole suit and have it dry etc. The stuff really did clean off the road grime and all though. The white on the suit is brighter than ever!



I feel comfortable having the rear slide out and controlling that on the bike as I've done drifting/circuit racing my RWD car. The effect of countersteering to to go where you want is embedded in me. But never experienced the front wash out on a bike. Is it like understeering in a car? Never even done it when I used to mountain bike.
But as mentioned before, dirt track would be the best place to experience both. I'm just too broke at the moment to do it. Might just get the mountain bike out (after nearly 5 years!) and try some stuff.

As to "why" I've also been told by the instructors during my riding course and BHS to not brake with just the front in the wet to prevent it washing out. Rear is more controllable than the front they said.
If you ride smoothly and use your engine braking and gearbox to scrub off speed, you would be surprised how little you need to use any braking. If you are squeezing the brakes enough to lock up, you are not riding to the conditions or panic/emergency braking.

[Berries]

As to "why" I've also been told by the instructors during my riding course and BHS to not brake with just the front in the wet to prevent it washing out. Rear is more controllable than the front they said.
Possibly good advice for a learner but as stated elsewhere, if you need to slow down quickly there is no point relying on the back brake unless you want to impress someone with a darkie (C Jeremy Clarkson). As long as you are aware of what will happen if you give it heaps of brake, front or back, wet or dry, then do what feels right - we should all know the basics from riding pushbikes as kids. The only time I use my back brake is going down my steep clay driveway in the wet, on the road it is front 100% of the time wet or dry. Works for me.

My only suggestion is that if you find some tyres that give you confidence in the wet stick with them. There is nothing worse than tyres you don't trust.

[biketimus_prime]

Yeah I think best is for me to practice more with my front brake and see how far I can go before locking up. During the riding course we practiced using the front only, rear only then both. My bike stopped better using both, but at the time the rear locked up before the front, the instructors though something was up with my front brake and it turned out the front brakes weren't bled properly when the previous owner had the service done (When I go home and did the bleed on the front lots of bubbles came out). They said they thought that was the case because the lever could be pulled all the way back to the throttle grip. I thought that was normal :brick:
It is much better now though and doesn't touch the grip when pulled fully but I haven't tried seeing the full potential of the front. I'll go out and practice this week :2thumbsup

As for riding smoothly, the majority of my braking is done via engine braking. However in the wet I'm not so aggressive with it as I have messed up downshifts in the past and doing that in the wet could be deadly. I brake first and get the speed+rpm down before shifting down. If that makes sense.

[discotex]

Good on ya. Just remember to be progressive with the front. Don't just slam it on. When upright you are likely to stoppie before you lock the front (in the dry). But if it does lock up you just need to let go. But don't aim for that.. Just get a feel for the tyre getting unhappy. Don't forget to build up slowly which will let the tyres get nice and warm. And check your pressures too..

[bogan]

In regards to braking, the where becomes much more important in the wet. Avoid any painted markers on the road, also avoid shiny/oily/pooled water. And things can be just as bad if not worse during light/start of rain, as oil/dust/debri etc will sit on the water.
In regard to balance, it depends on the bike and rider. Sports bikes in dry often don't bother much with the rear as the weight transfer is so strongly to the front, a lower grip during wet means less front brake force can be applied, so less weight is transfered and the rear becomes more useful, but it is still of far less use than the front. So pay much more attention to the front anyway, in a straight line stop you can lock the rear completely and not lose that much stopping power.

[russd7]

FFS, it doesnt matter what you are riding, whether it be a cruiser, tourer, trailie, or sports bike, the principle is just the same, front brake will stop you a whole lot quicker than back, and you should not be using your brake in the corner as a novice and only those pushing the limits may need to use a back brake during cornering. doesn't matter whether im on the wing or the zzr i still pretty much use only front brake unless im getting lazy and then i may use the back brake on the wing (which is linked to front right brake anyway). under emergency braking there will be very little if any grip on the back wheel anyway and the OP should be practicing his emergency braking. as has already been said, dont just yank the brake lever in even in emergency braking it needs to be progressive albeit still pretty quick but allowing the front tyre to take the weight without locking up and washing out, probably says something about all this on the dogfood pack anyway

[Urano]

So a couple of questions for wet weather, before I learn bad habits.

Should I use my rear brake when coming to a stop?


yes.


Should I use my rear brake as I slow down entering a corner?

yes.


Should I use my rear brake if I need to rub off a bit of speed mid-corner? (Hopefully I never enter it too hot to do that though!)


yes.



Are motorbikes prone to locking up the rear wheel if you mess up a downshift? (letting out clutch too suddenly, over revving etc)


"prone" no.
"could happen" yes.
especially with shitty weather...
as you've seen though, lockin up the rear wheel is rarely a huge mess.
one of this rare occasion is when you are way too leaned (and you shouldn't be way too leaned in shitty weather...), lock up the rear, panic and leave the brake: remember to smile while on the high side...


What else should I watch out for? What are some good practices such as lane positioning, when to open the throttle etc


uh... i've written a 200+ pages book about this... it's really something hard to condense in few lines...
let's try takin' a look at "a twist of wrist". maybe it's too technical for you now, but at least you get some idea...


be safe...

[Urano]

Why?

10chars

to help the fork

16. sorry.


and that's in wet as well in the dry...

[discotex]

to help the fork

16. sorry.


and that's in wet as well in the dry...

What does using the rear brake do above and beyond using the natural engine braking?

[10bikekid]

I've been riding for a month and a bit now. Done about 3000km in that time, but I've done less than 100 in the wet, where it has rained then started to dry and/or the roads are damp. Not on actual wet roads.
Today I had to go drop some videos off and it was raining, I thought what the hell might as well take the bike and go for a ride at the same time. I wasn't sure how much I could lean, where to position myself to allow for minimal lean but better cornering and what other things to watch out for.
I tiptoed around for the first 10km or so. Nervous as hell.
Finally after I started getting the hang of things and leaning a bit more etc I come up to a roundabout and as I'm braking my rear wheel locks up and I get a decent amount of sideways action. Thankfully I remained calm and eased off the back brake while holding the front so I didn't sail through the roundabout and actually came to a stop right at the line. I attribute that to lots of pushbike riding in the rain and doing little skids on them for fun. But it's just scary on a bike.
I then went to an empty road and actually practiced locking up my rear wheel and trying to control the slide while braking front and rear and seeing how much force I needed and how it felt when I was in control. But I imagine I'd be screwed if it happened in an emergency.

So a couple of questions for wet weather, before I learn bad habits.

Should I use my rear brake when coming to a stop?
Should I use my rear brake as I slow down entering a corner?
Should I use my rear brake if I need to rub off a bit of speed mid-corner? (Hopefully I never enter it too hot to do that though!)
Are motorbikes prone to locking up the rear wheel if you mess up a downshift? (letting out clutch too suddenly, over revving etc)
What else should I watch out for? What are some good practices such as lane positioning, when to open the throttle etc

Any other advice also appreciated. Thanks in advance!

Perhaps not this http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/166717-Crazy-Riders?p=1130716703#post1130716703

Crazy Riders
I was impressed with the skills of a said motorcyclist on a mid sized Ducati Monster (or something similar) yesterday.

I was travelling up the North bound outside lane of the harbour bridge in my warm van (doing about 20kph) when I heard the roar of a smaller loud twin, it passed between me and the car in the other lane (no big deal right) and then the guy nailed it would say he was full tap running up the white line

I'm guessing he would have got to well over 100kph easy running that white line while cars where doing about 20-30ks and I was surprised he did not loose the back end (if he'd been on a thousand I'd say the result would have not been so good)

Heaven forbid was I ever that mad, it certainly looked bad from where I was

Hope he enjoy his little Russia roulette game with the wet roads and the traffic

[Urano]

What does using the rear brake do above and beyond using the natural engine braking?

well, not every bike has an effective "engine braking".
rear brake is simpler and not dependent on running condition.

as an old rule known by anybody who learned riding with two strokes engines says, "engine's for going, brakes' for stopping".

more than that, as a standard brakin' technique should be built up to help you automate your motor reaction, in emergency brakes caring about the gear lever would distract you and elongate your stop...

[discotex]

well, not every bike has an effective "engine braking".
rear brake is simpler and not dependent on running condition.

as an old rule known by anybody who learned riding with two strokes engines says, "engine's for going, brakes' for stopping".

more than that, as a standard brakin' technique should be built up to help you automate your motor reaction, in emergency brakes caring about the gear lever would distract you and elongate your stop...

OP (and most of us) is not on a 2 stroke.. If in the appropriate gear then any modern 4 stroke is providing a reasonable amount of rear drag just by coming off the throttle.

[Urano]

OP (and most of us) is not on a 2 stroke..

that's why most of today's bikers who begin with middle class have not had a good practical scholarship.

biketimus_prime demonstrated good judgment and bought a beautiful beginner bike. more than that he had the beautiful idea of asking for advice.
why would you turn him down when there's the possibility for him to build up correct procedures and learn a safer way to ride?



If in the appropriate gear then any modern 4 stroke is providing a reasonable amount of rear drag just by coming off the throttle.

"if in the appropriate gear" is a huge IF by itself.
then think that you'd slow down differently at 10.000 than 3.000 rpm, with a 1200 twin than a 600 four, with "sport" map than "rain", with a chain than with a cardan...

and in case you'll have no control at all about that "reasonable amount of drag".
with the brake you can moderate it, and receive information about grip and tarmac conditions.

if you're wandering around at 40 kmh and need to lazily slow down then you can totally push the gear lever twice and roll on to a stop, cool.

but if you're asking about a correct braking technique, more than ever in wet weather, rear brake is a fundamental part of it.

[biketimus_prime]

Well since reading up on advice and all sorts I've gone out and practiced a bit. Firstly you guys were right about the front brake, man you can get so much stopping power before locking up! It's pretty crazy I never actually pushed it as far as that before as I always stopped just fine using both brakes.

I do engine brake in the dry, so much so that I'm hardly on the brakes till I need to brush off the last bit of speed down from like 20-30kph. I do need to get more confidence in myself to engine brake in the rain as if I leave it in too high a gear and slow down, I not only have my bike braking but the engine starts stalling as I'm going forward! I actually did that a couple of times and pulled the clutch in and came to a stop that way, then geared down back to neutral. :rolleyes:

From what Urano has said
but if you're asking about a correct braking technique, more than ever in wet weather, rear brake is a fundamental part of it.

Why should I risk lock up using my front brake fully in the wet to slow down when I would rather use my rear brake to help me brake as well and not go so hard on the front. At least if my rear slips out I slide on my ass rather than locking up the front and possibly falling head first? To reiterate, I still use my front to do 90% of the braking, but the rear could be used quite hard too...


Oh also I watched some videos of high siding and learnt the mechanics of it. I just know I'd let go of the back brake straight away if I lost grip mid corner. I JUST KNOW IT. Like I still chop the throttle when I feel uncomfortable cornering too hard sometimes. I've gotten a lot better but I still do it at times rather than rolling off and rolling on. I guess that ability to not be a bitch about it comes from doing track days.

[Urano]

Why should I risk lock up using my front brake fully in the wet to slow down when I would rather use my rear brake to help me brake as well and not go so hard on the front. At least if my rear slips out I slide on my ass rather than locking up the front and possibly falling head first? To reiterate, I still use my front to do 90% of the braking, but the rear could be used quite hard too...

cool. :niceone:
i'm afraid though you're missing part of the point.
great amount of effect of the rear brake, and the amount we need most, is WITHIN the bike, not between the bike and the tarmac.
rear braking is needed to prepare the bike chassis to support front braking.
you can try it with a bit of guts: get in a wide plain and empty parking place. reach about 40-50 kmh and then, just with 2 fingers, squeeze quickly and hardly the front brake lever.
squeeze and leave it in a blink.
your front wheel will lock instantly. if you won't let it spin again immediately you'd not have the gyro rigidity you need to stay upright and will fall down...

when you hit the rear brake first the weight transfer allow the front wheel to support a harder braking on the front and eventually stop the bike. that's because the weight is part of the friction formula.
if you're very experienced you obviously can reach the same performance presiding the force which you use to squeeze the front lever, but i dare you to think about it and moderating your fingers while a child popped in the middle of the lane is coming fast toward you...
so: rear brake and THEN, after a quarter of a second, front brake. always.
this procedure will help you even in an emergency stop, but it'd be a wider topic...

uh, by the way: if you're going to try the front lock as i told you... MIND YOUR MALE PARTS... :laugh::laugh::laugh:





Oh also I watched some videos of high siding and learnt the mechanics of it. I just know I'd let go of the back brake straight away if I lost grip mid corner. I JUST KNOW IT. Like I still chop the throttle when I feel uncomfortable cornering too hard sometimes. I've gotten a lot better but I still do it at times rather than rolling off and rolling on. I guess that ability to not be a bitch about it comes from doing track days.

yep.
that would be a well spent morning.
by now consider that when you open the throttle the bike will rise FROM THE BACK (and not from the front wheel as many would think...).
so when you're leaned in a turn your chassis NEED you to open the gas slowly, mildly AND CONTINUOUSLY.

reach the entry point (i'd strongly suggest you to use a late apex line on open roads. wondering what i'm talkin about? google it... :bleh: ), leave the brakes, lean the bike, and then slowly and consistently open the throttle again while you're putting the bike upright again...

remember that your bike has limits much wider than you...

be safe. :niceone:

[biketimus_prime]

Hey thanks for your advice again, I didn't get a chance to sit down and write out a proper reply till now :)

I have been riding in the wet weather the past few days and I am more confident in doing the majority of my braking using the front and I'm quite surprised how much I can use, you guys were right!
Also been more consistent with my throttle usage and trying to get my opening of the throttle correct after getting right entry speeds. Big roundabouts are perfect to practice I found. Enter too slow and lean too much and it feels like I'm going to fall off and my natural reaction is to chop the gas and stand the bike up. Enter at the right speed with the throttle constant rather than no throttle/on and off throttle and I can take a nice curve.
I did learn about late apexing for street riding and also so I can see further into the corner that way before I enter it.

By the way who do I contact directly about oil on the roads and things like that? There has been these big oil patches in the middle and right hand lane of victoria park tunnel for nearly a month now!

[chasio]

Hey thanks for your advice again, I didn't get a chance to sit down and write out a proper reply till now :)

I have been riding in the wet weather the past few days and I am more confident in doing the majority of my braking using the front and I'm quite surprised how much I can use, you guys were right!
Also been more consistent with my throttle usage and trying to get my opening of the throttle correct after getting right entry speeds. Big roundabouts are perfect to practice I found. Enter too slow and lean too much and it feels like I'm going to fall off and my natural reaction is to chop the gas and stand the bike up. Enter at the right speed with the throttle constant rather than no throttle/on and off throttle and I can take a nice curve.
I did learn about late apexing for street riding and also so I can see further into the corner that way before I enter it.

By the way who do I contact directly about oil on the roads and things like that? There has been these big oil patches in the middle and right hand lane of victoria park tunnel for nearly a month now!

Report anything like that (also stuff like failed streetlights) to Auckland Transport (https://at.govt.nz/about-us/contact-us/report-a-problem/). As their website says: "If your problem is urgent call us now on 09 355 355" They answer 24 hours, 7 days a week.

I have found them quite responsive in the past, especially if you tell them it's a safety issue.

[biketimus_prime]

Report anything like that (also stuff like failed streetlights) to Auckland Transport (https://at.govt.nz/about-us/contact-us/report-a-problem/). As their website says: "If your problem is urgent call us now on 09 355 355" They answer 24 hours, 7 days a week.

I have found them quite responsive in the past, especially if you tell them it's a safety issue.

Thank you, just reported it now :)

[Metastable]

First off, I don't advise doing this as a method of proper riding, but rather as an exercise.

One of the coolest drills I did at the track (school) was doing a lap as fast as possible, but only using the rear brake to slow down. I must confess on a couple of corners I had to nudge the front in the corner, so that I didn't go off the track.

So if you are out and about, and you have the chance to practice this skill on a safe section of road or business park etc... then give it a shot.... OK, minus the going as fast as possible bit.

It's just another type of practice..... that doesn't mean that you shouldn't use the front. Almost all of your braking should be done with your front and that is how you should typically ride. Similarly, I would practice emergency braking on almost every street ride (yes using the front).... the more you practice the better you get at it.

Another good one is practicing to stop in a corner while carrying some good speed. Again, make sure conditions are clear of other vehicles with good sight lines.

[The Pastor]

I've been riding for a month and a bit now. Done about 3000km in that time, but I've done less than 100 in the wet, where it has rained then started to dry and/or the roads are damp. Not on actual wet roads.
Today I had to go drop some videos off and it was raining, I thought what the hell might as well take the bike and go for a ride at the same time. I wasn't sure how much I could lean, where to position myself to allow for minimal lean but better cornering and what other things to watch out for.
I tiptoed around for the first 10km or so. Nervous as hell.
Finally after I started getting the hang of things and leaning a bit more etc I come up to a roundabout and as I'm braking my rear wheel locks up and I get a decent amount of sideways action. Thankfully I remained calm and eased off the back brake while holding the front so I didn't sail through the roundabout and actually came to a stop right at the line. I attribute that to lots of pushbike riding in the rain and doing little skids on them for fun. But it's just scary on a bike.
I then went to an empty road and actually practiced locking up my rear wheel and trying to control the slide while braking front and rear and seeing how much force I needed and how it felt when I was in control. But I imagine I'd be screwed if it happened in an emergency.

So a couple of questions for wet weather, before I learn bad habits.

Should I use my rear brake when coming to a stop?
Should I use my rear brake as I slow down entering a corner?
Should I use my rear brake if I need to rub off a bit of speed mid-corner? (Hopefully I never enter it too hot to do that though!)
Are motorbikes prone to locking up the rear wheel if you mess up a downshift? (letting out clutch too suddenly, over revving etc)
What else should I watch out for? What are some good practices such as lane positioning, when to open the throttle etc

Any other advice also appreciated. Thanks in advance!


My Advice, go to an empty carpark when its raining, and learn what it feels like to lock up your front or rear wheel. Just get up to about 20km/hr then apply the breaks normally and keep doing this with applying the brakes (front OR rear, not both) harder and harder until you lock it. Its scary but the bike wont fall over if you are going in a straight line. As soon as it locks let go and you'll regain traction.

Once you get used to this feeling of sliding, start working to stop as quick as you can with out locking the front.

You should practice this many many times so it feels normal - cos when it will apply in the real world you need to be sure of yourself and your bike and not panic.

[george formby]

Locking up the front wheel in the wet as a practise exercise is not very bright if you ask me. I was following behind a guy on a bike in a straight line in the wet and he came off braking in bumper to bumper traffic. If your theory was correct he would have stayed upright would he not? I have lost the front wheel myself on a wet road and come off.

Er, shirley practicing in a safe environment & gradually developing your skills would have helped both of you avoiding a bin?

[haydes55]

The guy I saw come off could have hit a patch of oil and when I came off it was on the downhill of a bridge which may have been a contributing factor but I should have still not come off according to the other poster as I was going straight. The message I am trying to get across is that you can practise and practise but it's still no guarantee that shit will never happen and lots of people can come off practising too.



So you've practices locking up the front wheel?

[bogan]

Locking up the front wheel in the wet as a practise exercise is not very bright if you ask me. I was following behind a guy on a bike in a straight line in the wet and he came off braking in bumper to bumper traffic. If your theory was correct he would have stayed upright would he not? I have lost the front wheel myself on a wet road and come off.

So, you've got two examples of people falling off on the road, not practice, and one of which certainly had no practice. Yet somehow this confirms practice is a bad idea? :facepalm: the idea of practicing is you have no obligation to stop, there is no panic reactions. Almost your whole attention can be focused on detecting that front wheel lock and then releasing it; all of which explains why far fewer people crash practicing than those who don't.

[george formby]

There are no guarantees riding period.

Re the practice, I think it is very important to learn the correct braking technique first before getting to carried away.

[The Pastor]

Locking up the front wheel in the wet as a practise exercise is not very bright if you ask me. I was following behind a guy on a bike in a straight line in the wet and he came off braking in bumper to bumper traffic. If your theory was correct he would have stayed upright would he not? I have lost the front wheel myself on a wet road and come off.

my theory is what has worked for me.

When you remain calm in an emergency situation you are less likely to die. One way to remain calm is to be experienced in all types of riding environments. Nothing will 100% save you all the time (we have all been to many, many funerals that prove this point). If you want that level of saftey go live in a bubble.

what your suggesting is don't practice, cos shit happens regardless. Sound advice, lets get this guy in charge. We are all doomed before we start with that defeatist attitude.

You lost the front wheel and came off? And you still think practicing emergency stops is bad?

What if I told you that losing traction doesn't always = coming off?

losing the front in a high speed corner might always = coming off but its rare to come off the bike when you lose traction when the bike is straight up. Unless of course you don't practice how to regain control of your bike.

[bogan]

But the other poster said you can lock the front wheel and providing you are going straight you will not fall off did he not? Whether you are practising or not should have nothing to do with it based on his argument and I have just proved him wrong based on my own experience and watching another rider come off on a straight road in the wet.

Yeh, but the realities of the situation like road camber mean you won't go straight all that long until the front starts to slide off line, which is the point you want to have released the front brake enough to allow the wheel to spin again.
You have a history of misreading what other people have wrote in order so you can 'seem' to be right. So I don't actually care what you think other people think, because what you think is fucking stupid, practicing your skills so you are better suited to an emergency situation is a good idea; if you had done it you wouldn't have fallen off.

[george formby]

This current exchange needs a sound track.

Grieg (http://youtu.be/6Cd3Mt2SDCw)

[bogan]

This current exchange needs a sound track.

Grieg (http://youtu.be/6Cd3Mt2SDCw)

Trol or not (I'm still undecided btw), giving out harmful advice (especially in survival skills section) crosses the line of what sort of trolling can be ignored.

[george formby]

Trol or not (I'm still undecided btw), giving out harmful advice (especially in survival skills section) crosses the line of what sort of trolling can be ignored.

Very pertinent.

[The Pastor]

It seems to me all your loss of control situations happen very slowly allowing you to regain control where in my case they have happened so fast I have not had time to even brake. I am not anti practise as such it just that the sort of practise you recommend can be very expensive learning to get right in terms of falls plus from over 30 years of riding experience I have never been in a emergency situation where I felt practise would have prevented this emergency situation from happening.

must be my younger sharper brain being able to process situations quicker, you oldie. ;)

[BuzzardNZ]

You are the one who is doing the misreading as he said did he not "the bike will not fall over if you are going in a straight line" and in the wet too. Not all of us have big bank accounts like you and him who can afford to drop their bikes multiple times in the name of practise.

Your bank account would probably be fairly healthy if you'd somehow manage to keep your bike upright a little more :pinch:

[bogan]

You are the one who is doing the misreading as he said did he not "the bike will not fall over if you are going in a straight line" and in the wet too. Not all of us have big bank accounts like you and him who can afford to drop their bikes multiple times in the name of practise.

Obviously you misread the bit of my post where I said I didn't care what you thought others were saying.
I've never dropped my bike once during practice, nor am I ever likely to. In fact nor can I afford to.

To newbies, and oldies who act like fucking noobs, practice within your limits of comfort, extend those limits under controlled circumstances until you become confident enough to handle an wet emergency stop situation efficiently.
Don't be like this fucking pillock who because she is too scared to practice proper technique, has a history of falling off and running over small animals, and no desire or ability to learn from those mistakes. What sort of rider do you want to be? self-absorbed or self-preserving?

[bogan]

I think those who say they have never dropped their bikes and like bragging about how good they are like you are the very ones who will likely come to grief at some stage. It is what is called having an overconfident ability and you even make the claim that you will be able to avoid any mistake made by others with the example you give of animals running out.

Who? I've never said I haven't dropped it, in fact I've explained how I dropped one and how I learnt from that (your misreading still going strong I see). That is where we differ, you drop it and assume the self righteous approach and learn nothing, your chances of dropping it again in the same situation are not changed; I dropped it, and learned that practice is a good idea, and have done so (without dropping it) and now my chances of dropping it again in the same situation have been reduced. It is not overconfidence, it is just the simple art of being prepared. The perils of overconfidence have nothing to do with one's ability to mitigate a dangerous situation, but have everything to do with getting into said situation; since I now ride more cautiously, with more awareness, your theory about overconfidence is as useless as your advice.

Or in other words, get good you fucking pleb.

[haydes55]

No as I would not want to risk drop the bike. I have locked up the rear though but only on a dry road. No loss of control.
It sounds like you grabbed a handful of front brake and locked up the front, this happened so fast and you've never encountered it before, so you have no muscle memory and experience to know what to do before you have time to think about it.

If you had practiced you would have the reaction before you realised consciously what's happening. Biggest of all though, you would have learnt to incrementally increase braking pressure rather than grabbing a handful will actually give you more grip, squat the bike down and less likelihood of lock up. Also if you've incrementally increased braking pressure, you will have time to release pressure if the front locks, then restart braking.

[f2dz]

Surely you can argue via private message rather than on a thread asking for tips..

My 2c:


Ride in wheel tracks. Usually this area will be drier and will have less oil spots/slicks.
I've been told to use 70% front 30% rear in dry conditions but that in the wet you should even it out to around 50%/50%. This was via the guys at ProRider but I generally find myself sticking to a 70/30 split between brakes still. Then again I don't really find myself having to brake too much as I allow for plenty of time with my following distance.
Don't overthink it too much or psyche yourself out because the road's wet. Ride as per in the dry except just be mindful of less grip while cornering and braking. Increase following distance to suit.
Beware of painted lines/markings/manhole covers, especially at intersections where you put your feet down. I always find it helpful to note where these are while it's dry and avoid them all the time if possible. That way it becomes a habit to not brake on them or come to a stop on them.
Make sure your kit will keep you dry and comfortable. Getting wet can be distracting and take your mind off of the ride.
Don't let your tyres wear too low. Replace them if you find yourself riding in the rain a lot. Good tyres make a helluva lotta difference.

[chasio]

Surely you can argue via private message rather than on a thread asking for tips..

My 2c:


Ride in wheel tracks. Usually this area will be drier and will have less oil spots/slicks.
I've been told to use 70% front 30% rear in dry conditions but that in the wet you should even it out to around 50%/50%. This was via the guys at ProRider but I generally find myself sticking to a 70/30 split between brakes still. Then again I don't really find myself having to brake too much as I allow for plenty of time with my following distance.
Don't overthink it too much or psyche yourself out because the road's wet. Ride as per in the dry except just be mindful of less grip while cornering and braking. Increase following distance to suit.
Beware of painted lines/markings/manhole covers, especially at intersections where you put your feet down. I always find it helpful to note where these are while it's dry and avoid them all the time if possible. That way it becomes a habit to not brake on them or come to a stop on them.
Make sure your kit will keep you dry and comfortable. Getting wet can be distracting and take your mind off of the ride.
Don't let your tyres wear too low. Replace them if you find yourself riding in the rain a lot. Good tyres make a helluva lotta difference.


All good stuff. Just to add...

Remember that you go where you look. If you look down, you will probably go down. When practising, pick out a point ahead of you and keep your eyes up, looking at it, while you are braking.

Better yet, go to SASS or NASS to practise this stuff if you are in range. That way you can get feedback as well.

I have locked the front more than once in traffic (every time on a white line, FWIW) and never gone down as a result. I can only credit practise, because it sure as hell is not innate skill.

[FJRider]

From what you have said I am guessing you would also rubbish the guy who said you can lock the front wheel in the wet and not come off as long as you are in a straight line?

Most people skid in straight lines (in the direction of travel the bike was going) ... it's the angle and axis of the bike during the skid that gets people in the shit. A little (ok LOTS) of dirt bike practice off road helps your sealed road skid recovery.

Getting into a skid on tar seal is by no means ... a certain "Off" ...

As has already been said ... practice does help. (and preferably before you need that skill)

[FJRider]

The debate has been over wet roads compared to dry roads. 2 other posters as well as myself feel as far as stopping in the wet (suddenly) goes you are more likely to come off than on dry roads. Those that debate this feel that its the riders own fault for not practising and not the fault of the wet road. You could also be luckier braking in the wet on certain bikes and tyres more than others too perhaps.

Skids happen ... even in the dry. And you are more likely to come off if you don't know what it's like to be in a skid (Wet OR dry) :blank:

It's NOT a matter of fault for not having the practice .. but just as important as ANY rider training courses. :niceone:

You should be "Luckier" on your own (familiar) bike. And if you can control .. or at the very least limit your skid ... things may well end better for you. The better YOU know how YOUR bike handles ... the better it will be for you. (unless you're feeling lucky) :weird:

It's up to each individual rider how confident (or lucky) they feel in the wet. And those that practice skids in the wet will be more confident. Whose fault would it be for them NOT learning the skid skills .. ?? :rolleyes:

It may well be the riders fault ... for getting themselves into the position of needing to emergency stop in the wet. If you haven't the skid skills ... make your own luck and don't put yourself in such a position as possibly needing to stop quickly.
There has been much discussion on the downside of cheap tyres. Some prefer to save money ... but often costs them more. (in the end) :doh:

[haydes55]

Since that accident which happened over 30 years ago I brake in the wet pretty much as you say. From what you have said I am guessing you would also rubbish the guy who said you can lock the front wheel in the wet and not come off as long as you are in a straight line?


Nope, I once locked the front wheel of my old bike in the damp (had rained the night before and I was practicing in industrial area). I didn't come off, I released the brake..... I didn't stop when I was trying to stop by, but I didn't drop it.

[mstriumph]

If you are riding in Wellington, stay away from the painted bits on the road ... skid city :(

[BuzzardNZ]

cassina, are you related to EdBear by any chance?

[skippa1]

The debate has been over wet roads compared to dry roads. 2 other posters as well as myself feel as far as stopping in the wet (suddenly) goes you are more likely to come off than on dry roads. Those that debate this feel that its the riders own fault for not practising and not the fault of the wet road. You could also be luckier braking in the wet on certain bikes and tyres more than others too perhaps.
Lot of feeling going on Rolf

[Fern]

If you are riding in Wellington, stay away from the painted bits on the road ... skid city :(

Have you ever ridden anywhere else other than Wellington?

[mstriumph]

Have you ever ridden anywhere else other than Wellington?


all over England & Wales (where the moisture content in the air is frequently 100% :) )
lots of South Africa (especially around Joh'burg where the traffic's a nightmare and the rain tips down in sheets most afternoons in summer:eek5:)
all over West Australia (where the onset of rain on baked summer roads makes them greasy as hell)
most of NI NZ
bits of north America in the freezing cold :wacko:



must admit my experience is lacking - never ridden in Bali ;)

??? what's your point?

[bogan]

That's one of the reasons why some of us take a chance and go through an amber light in the wet. I wonder if any of those advocating practise actually practise their wet weather skids on painted lines because if they don't their practise will mean jack shit in the real world. Painted lines are not always easy to see if there is a puddle over them and a reflection from sun or a street light shining on the puddle.

You can use them a little for practice, but only to get the feel of things getting slippery while going over them as then getting back to road 'saves' it; never ever ride along painted sections for any significant length. There's no need to practice on them, as if you find yourself need to emergency stop along lengthy painted lines, you've fucked up. No ifs buts or maybes, avoid those fuckers in both wet and dry; if you can't see things the put on the road with the specific purpose of being able to be seen, take the fucking bus.

[george formby]

That's one of the reasons why some of us take a chance and go through an amber light in the wet. I wonder if any of those advocating practise actually practise their wet weather skids on painted lines because if they don't their practise will mean jack shit in the real world. Painted lines are not always easy to see if there is a puddle over them and a reflection from sun or a street light shining on the puddle.

I use a technique called "planning ahead" for similar situations. I find the traffic lights themselves to be a good clue.
I've also noticed that painted lines on the road don't appear to be in a random pattern. I often see the same pattern in similar road layouts, like junctions.
This knowledge allows me to avoid them.

[bogan]

Going though an amber light is another option to avoid braking hard on painted lines and while I agree the bus option you advocate is safer it's too late if you have left home in the dry and it rains going home. So the sun does not shine and there is no street lighting to obscure your visibility of painted lines where you live then?

Well, yeh, not braking is always a way to avoid heavy braking, however the idea is to avoid heavy breaking, something not braking doesn't do. Sun/street lights don't obscure white lines, add to this that white lines are in standard places anyway, it not hard to avoid em; bus trip to the optometrist in order perhaps?

I think from your posts what has happened is you've had an incident you were not equipped to avoid and its made you petrified of locking up the front wheel; a natural reaction. But it is a reaction borne of ignorance, lock ups are easy to deal with if you have practiced them, they are also safe to practice. Your ignorance on those two points is what makes you continue to give very poor advice, and ride in an unsafe manner. Ie, going through a yellow light which necessitates acceleration to get through, means you cannot stop safely in a distance the roading authorities determines for safe driving habits; so bottom line is you advocate an approach which makes you worse than what is considered a minimum safe standard, in light of that you really should be banned from posting in the survival skills section.

[GTRMAN]

Well, yeh, not braking is always a way to avoid heavy braking, however the idea is to avoid heavy breaking, something not braking doesn't do. Sun/street lights don't obscure white lines, add to this that white lines are in standard places anyway, it not hard to avoid em; bus trip to the optometrist in order perhaps?

I think from your posts what has happened is you've had an incident you were not equipped to avoid and its made you petrified of locking up the front wheel; a natural reaction. But it is a reaction borne of ignorance, lock ups are easy to deal with if you have practiced them, they are also safe to practice. Your ignorance on those two points is what makes you continue to give very poor advice, and ride in an unsafe manner. Ie, going through a yellow light which necessitates acceleration to get through, means you cannot stop safely in a distance the roading authorities determines for safe driving habits; so bottom line is you advocate an approach which makes you worse than what is considered a minimum safe standard, in light of that you really should be banned from posting in the survival skills section.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5Iph6tegcB8/SwpVSW6Lt-I/AAAAAAAAGWU/xkED9lZ0b_E/s1600/tilting+at+windmills.jpg

[Berries]

That's one of the reasons why some of us take a chance and go through an amber light in the wet.
Why stop there, if you'll pardon the pun?

A great wet road riding tip is to just keep going when you see a pedestrian crossing the road ahead of you to save any troublesome thoughts about braking. Rail crossings are another one. Even dogs running across the road, they know it is raining so check both ways before crossing just to be safe with all those people wazzing around who can't stop in the wet. As do five year old children.


I am tempted to suggest that we have a KB whip round to you can get some brake pads.

[FJRider]

I use a technique called "planning ahead" for similar situations.

A nice idea ... but I doubt if it'll catch on ... :pinch:

[bogan]

self portrait

I'm not :bleh:


You and your mates are the ignorant ones to make such claims about my riding for the simple fact YOU HAVE NEVER SEEN ME RIDE!! And with your ability to hold a bike upright in a skid while stopping at the lights on a wet road you still run exactly the same risk of ending up stopping in the middle of the intersection
and being hit, with the only difference is that the car that hits you will knock you off as opposed to hitting you when you are already down. You and your mate are the ones who should be banned for the bad advise. Its too bad the other 2 posters who actually stated before me in this thread that they do what I do have not pursued the debate any further than their first post then there would be 3 against 3 in the debate eh!!

It is only you that cannot stop in less than the max stopping distance, the rest of us will happily pull up well before the intersection at a yellow light; it is exactly how they are designed. It isn't a debate, or a weight of opinion thing, you are unable to stop safely at a yellow light; this is basic roadcraft that all motorists should be able to do 100% of the time, I don't need to see you ride to know you shouldn't be giving advice with behavior like that.

[Fern]

My point is that there is no exception to the slipperiness of Wellington's white lines! :-)

[bogan]

Ok I have just worked out from this post of yours what you do that is different to what I do in that when you are approaching the intersection and the light is green you actually slow down so if it turns amber you will not end up in the middle of the intersection when you brake in the wet. While slowing down approaching a green light could be safer than what I do it is not in the road code that you must do it is it?

Nope, misreading again. If the light goes yellow I'll stop from 50kmhr if it is safe to do so, if it is not I shall continue through the intersection with ample enough time so that the yellow only turns red once I am fully through it; thus completing the operation safely under any circumstances. Though sometimes I'll not stop even when I could do so safely if I just want to get where I'm going a bit quicker and ready to risk a ticket.

Here's a few figures for ya, wet stopping dist from 50kmhr is about 20m, 50mhr is about 17m/s, now have you ever seen traffic lights phase through yellow in under 2 seconds?

[FJRider]

Ok I have just worked out from this post of yours what you do that is different to what I do in that when you are approaching the intersection and the light is green you actually slow down so if it turns amber you will not end up in the middle of the intersection when you brake in the wet. While slowing down approaching a green light could be safer than what I do it is not in the road code that you must do it is it?



The topic of the thread is Tips for riding in the rain. Most would agree ... a little more care should be taken then than you would in the dry. If the green light has been on for a while ... slowing a bit will improve your ability (and safety) to stop, should you get the Amber light. If it doesn't change ... power on and go ...

[Erelyes]

While slowing down approaching a green light could be safer than what I do it is not in the road code that you must do it is it?

http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/roadcode/motorcycle-road-code/you-and-your-motorcycle/keeping-your-distance.html

If a car can enter your path, it is safest to assume that it will enter your path. At intersections:
approach slowly - if a driver does pull out suddenly, your chances of making a quick stop or quick turn are better if you're going slowly


But okay

[bogan]

So after all your debate with me you concede you do exactly the same thing as me except we do it for different reasons but both equally as deadly eh so that brings to an end our debate then!!

Not equally as deadly as I don't advise others it is the safer option :facepalm:

Practice is the safer option, knowing your capabilities is the safer option, competent threat assessment is the safer option. Accelerating through a yellow light is not the safer option.

[FJRider]

So after all your debate with me you concede you do exactly the same thing as me except we do it for different reasons but both equally as deadly eh so that brings to an end our debate then!!

As with many similar decisions ... get it right on the day and you'll have NO issues.

Get it wrong ... And because YOU made the decision ... it becomes your fault. Just as much fault as any others "Involved" in the ensuing carnage.

The simple fact is ... that riders with limited riding experience ... tend to make wrong decisions. Guessing right is not the same as knowing you are right.

Sadly .. Being in the right (or making right decisions) has no certainty of keeping you safe either ..

[bogan]

If it was not safe you would not be doing it either since you have rambled on about it being so unsafe and you worry about what others think of my "advice" as you put it.

It is safe because I can stop, but chose not to if circumstances allow/warrant it, but in that situation it is not safer to go through than it is to stop as you say it is. Your way of not being able to safely stop (and advising making no effort to acquire this most basic of skill) in the first place does not allow for the evaluation of circumstance, and choice of options.

Practice is the safer option, knowing your capabilities is the safer option, competent threat assessment is the safer option. Accelerating through a yellow light is not the safer option.

[FJRider]

And when motorcyclists get to the point where all the things you say become a big enough worry they stop riding but even driving has no certainty of keeping you safe just safer in some situations.

Many have .. and do stop riding for that reason ... and ... that is their choice to make. And I will not argue or deride those that make/made that decision. Neither should you.

but ...

Google ... Risk management.

The risk factor is always there when you ride a motorcycle. That is the reason many ride ... (that and the bad boy/girl image motorcyclists are often perceived as having). How much risk you take is entirely up to you ... as the rider. If you feel brave, lucky ... or (extremely .. ??) skilled ... you may choose to take far greater risks. That is your choice.

Risks taken in ignorance or stupidity (or vanity) make the rider at the controls NO less responsible for the (any) carnage that may result from those risks taken.

If your statement to Police afterwards is that ... I didn't know THAT would happen ... remember .. it is not a get out of jail free card.

Even being not at fault does not remove you from some responsibility by simply being involved. In some cases ... somebody else may still be alive had you made a different decision. In some cases ... that different decision may just have been slowing down a bit.

Those choices you may make could save a life. The life you save may be yours ...

[FJRider]

What a nonsensical remark to say you should feel some guilt if you are not at fault.

As YOU have (obviously) no conscience ... that will work for you.

Good luck with that ... expect the same in return if the error is yours. And the one that dies is a love of yours.

[FJRider]

It is safe only if circumstances allow/warrant it eh sport. How about you just respect my reason for doing it and I will respect your reason for doing it because you are in a hurry??????

Only end results count. Reasons for ... are really immaterial. Reasons wont remove responsibility.

Get it right ... no worries :wings:

Get it wrong .. :eek:

[bogan]

It is safe only if circumstances allow/warrant it eh sport. How about you just respect my reason for doing it and I will respect your reason for doing it because you are in a hurry??????

Of course that is the case. As in most road rules, like pass only when it is safe circumstances, go through an intersection only when the circumstances are safe. I will not respect either your opinion or advice because they are demonstrably wrong.

I do not expect you or a cop to respect my reason of I was in a hurry, because it is not the safest option. Stopping is, even if it is a hard stop. Practice is a safe way to improve your hard stopping performance, I suggest you work on both that, and getting a better attitude.

[bogan]

As YOU have (obviously) no conscience ... that will work for you.

Good luck with that ... expect the same in return if the error is yours. And the one that dies is a love of yours.

Yup, unfortunately one thing that is often learnt too late or not at all, is that self-preservation is a far far more useful trait the self-righteousness.

[bogan]

Your logic is absolutely nonsensical when you ride like me but think my riding needs practise??? I suggest you look in the mirror as you are the only one that needs practise with your fucked attitude.

I think it obvious to all that I don't ride like you. But it is good to hear I've finally convinced you to give the advice of get some practice. If you follow that one yourself you probably wouldn't end up shiny side down so often eh!

[FJRider]

You would think differently if you had been put in hospital as a result of someone elses stupid driving which I have twice. It was my fault for going out my gate that day eh!!!

And those responsible didn't care ..... ?? Poor diddums ...

Not at fault does not mean no responsibility. If you had not expected stupid driving ... (twice) ... perhaps it is YOU that is stupid. Treat ALL other riders/drivers as stupid and you wont end up in hospital (as often).

But ... I'm picking YOU WILL ...

Good luck with that.




Oh ... by leaving your OWN gate ... you accepted the risk. AND LOST.

Better luck next time ...

[granstar]

Probally not a biggy for the cityslickers, but down South things to watch for is cow shit and around farm driveways and gates. Until all underpasses are installed, and farmers are banned from driving unregistered questional safe vehicles along country roads, this shit continues to appear.

Passing or being passed by trucks spraying water across the road is another hold back until viz is well clear scenario.

Can't help notice the " Slippery When Wet " signs appearing about the highways, do a count, there are heaps of em. Fix the fucking roads, you get enough income from our rego fees...I say.

One of my mates is living proof of care should have been taken when going over shiny wet roads at open road speed. Just spat him and his VFR into the berm gravel (result new exhausts, panels, underwear, etc.). Any thing shiny bad, be careful out there.

[haydes55]

As I have said to you time and time again I do not have the ability like you to read the minds of other drivers and if we all did no one would die on the road at all now would they. The road toll would be a big fat 0 each year!!. Some of us still think its worth the risk going out our driveways each day. But I understand with your fear why you would not.


I can read drivers minds.... Kind of. I look at every single vehicle around me, watch the driver, their front wheels and look at my surroundings. If the car to my left is approaching a car ahead of them, I will presume they don't know I'm there, I will presume they will pull into my lane, I will presume they won't indicate and I will act accordingly. 9/10 of the time I didn't need to avoid the situation, because they have seen me, but I aim to avoid any potentially dangerous scenario by reading their minds (just being observant and proactive in riding defensively).

It's not mind reading, it's traffic reading.

[Berries]

According to some on here your friend needs to practise wet road skidding until he is able to recover from a skid without falling.
You are making shit up now. Nowhere in that post does it talk about braking in the wet.

[granstar]

According to some on here your friend needs to practise wet road skidding until he is able to recover from a skid without falling.

True, no braking, twas a straight piece of road, spat him off.

Yep, slow down, relax, and avoid shiny and wet patches of road where possible in the first place.

[GTRMAN]

That particular poster doesn't talk braking in the wet but others do and claim skids can be recovered from in the wet by practise.

So if you lock the front wheel under heavy braking then immediately release the brake what do you think will happen?

[bogan]

That particular poster doesn't talk braking in the wet but others do and claim skids can be recovered from in the wet by practise.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/t0eAIHNSSAA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

And our claims are easily proven.

[FJRider]

That particular poster doesn't talk braking in the wet but others do and claim skids can be recovered from in the wet by practise.

Only the tough and/or stupid practice their skid control on the open road. A few hours on a green grassy paddock can teach you plenty ... even on your own road bike.

Try it ... you will enjoy it.

[bogan]

If you want to call it that then if all drivers had that ability there would be zero road toll like I said. Very few have it, so count yourself lucky. In my mind though I still prefer to call it mind reading and you are just being semantical calling it traffic reading.

You call it mind reading because you're too fucking lazy and self-righteous to upskill yourself. For those who bother to learn it, it becomes as easy and natural as checking indicators/brake lights is for plebs like yourself; it most certainly is the traffic that is read, not a mind-read.

[haydes55]

I have said many times I do not wish to drop my bike in practise would you pay for the damage if I did? I bet not.

Would you prefer to risk dropping your bike, or learn a new skill, that if required, could be the difference between dropping your bike or not.

You're too scared to drop your bike in controlled situations, I'm too scared to drop my bike in a situation that happens too fast and risks my health.

[haydes55]

Maybe you should give up riding then as just because you never drop it in practise it does not mean you will never drop it on the road but if you believe otherwise good luck.


Read my post again. But with glasses on this time.

[Berries]

If you want to call it that then if all drivers had that ability there would be zero road toll like I said.
Everyone has that ability, but when you are cocooned in a nice warm car, or cocooned in a closed off mind as you are yourself, you are less likely to bother to use it.

I would have thought that in your case reading traffic would be doubly important seeing as you daren't use the brakes the way they designed.

[pritch]

Big roundabouts are perfect to practice I found.

Careful on roundabouts near a gas station when the roads are wet. People top the diesel tank right up then swing into the roundabout, gaily (in the old sense of the word) slopping diesel all over the road. All is then ready for the next unwary motorcyclist.

[Erelyes]

Maybe you should give up riding then as just because you never drop it in practise it does not mean you will never drop it on the road but if you believe otherwise good luck.

Did you even read his post? He said 'could be the difference'. Not 'will be the difference'.

Fuck me you're a muppet

[biketimus_prime]

You know what makes me clench my buttocks, going around busy roundabouts when there's cars waiting to enter from all sides and it has just rained for the first time in a week. Had that last night. It was dry all the way home until I got to the off ramp roundabout.

Oh also I learnt to gauge how hard I'm braking by seeing how much my front dives. I do have a lot more to go before I lock up the front. I did lock up after braking hard once just recently and felt the front tyre squirm and deform, let off just in time as my front tried to wash out from under me. Good lesson!

So I was reading up on more riding skills and figured, wouldn't it be a good idea to lean your body into corners a little more on a wet day? It'll help cornering because you need to lean the bike over less so you have more tyre contacting the road right?

[george formby]

You know what makes me clench my buttocks, going around busy roundabouts when there's cars waiting to enter from all sides and it has just rained for the first time in a week. Had that last night. It was dry all the way home until I got to the off ramp roundabout.

Oh also I learnt to gauge how hard I'm braking by seeing how much my front dives. I do have a lot more to go before I lock up the front. I did lock up after braking hard once just recently and felt the front tyre squirm and deform, let off just in time as my front tried to wash out from under me. Good lesson!

So I was reading up on more riding skills and figured, wouldn't it be a good idea to lean your body into corners a little more on a wet day? It'll help cornering because you need to lean the bike over less so you have more tyre contacting the road right?

I've been practising that lately, "kiss the mirror". Dropping the shoulder & moving my weight into the corner. It feels very alien to me on a dual purpose bike and I've found that practising it is distracting me from other things. It moves me from my anticipated line if I get it wrong and the new body position makes the controls feel less natural, throttle & brakes are not as smooth for me. So far I have mixed feelings about it but will persevere, I can see the merit of it. Another string to the bow.
In a situation like you describe above where caution is paramount it would be the last thing on my mind, appropriate speed & observation would be my priority.

Certainly have a go at it in your practice car park but I would not suddenly decide to try it in traffic. Oh no.

[bogan]

Tyre profiles are formed so you get more contact area the more you lean the bike over, the reason you want to keep the bike upright is so the suspension is more able to deal with bumps.

Coming from a dirtbike background, if traction is a little scarce I'd lean the bike more, and me less, so it is easier to deal with any loss of traction; in addition to go slower of course.

[GTRMAN]

You know what makes me clench my buttocks, going around busy roundabouts when there's cars waiting to enter from all sides and it has just rained for the first time in a week. Had that last night. It was dry all the way home until I got to the off ramp roundabout.

Oh also I learnt to gauge how hard I'm braking by seeing how much my front dives. I do have a lot more to go before I lock up the front. I did lock up after braking hard once just recently and felt the front tyre squirm and deform, let off just in time as my front tried to wash out from under me. Good lesson!

So I was reading up on more riding skills and figured, wouldn't it be a good idea to lean your body into corners a little more on a wet day? It'll help cornering because you need to lean the bike over less so you have more tyre contacting the road right?

Biketimus if you are nervous cornering in the wet then the best idea for you is spend some time with a professional instructor. You're in Auckland so give Philip at Riderskills a call, he really knows his stuff and it will be money well spent.


I don't think you should lean over more in the wet because if the bike goes into a slide you will be off. I just slow down for bends in the wet so I can stay more upright if the bike starts to slide.
You will get replies from those who think different to me so good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Cassina you're skills are negligible and the advice you dish out is bordering on downright dangerous. Have you ever connected the dots and thought maybe the reason so few riders have the life saving skills they need is because they listen to the idiotic ravings of potential darwin award candidates like yourself on internet forums? Would you go under the knife of a surgeon that learnt his skills by reading about it on the internet?

[george formby]

Tyre profiles are formed so you get more contact area the more you lean the bike over, the reason you want to keep the bike upright is so the suspension is more able to deal with bumps.

Coming from a dirtbike background, if traction is a little scarce I'd lean the bike more, and me less, so it is easier to deal with any loss of traction; in addition to go slower of course.

I'm the same, probably why that technique is causing so many difficulties.
The last couple of times I have had to ride through Auckland in the rain I have made a big effort to stay relaxed on the bike. Being a yokel, traffic shits me & it's easy to get tense which slows down reactions. A wee slide is neither here nor there if it stays a wee slide.

[SVboy]

You would think differently if you had been put in hospital as a result of someone elses stupid driving which I have twice. It was my fault for going out my gate that day eh!!!

My sympathies to the two drivers. Hopefully they will have more luck next time. How-ever please dont give up on going through those amber lights. Give em a fighting chance eh! Where is Katman when you need him?

[FJRider]

I don't think you should lean over more in the wet because if the bike goes into a slide you will be off. I just slow down for bends in the wet so I can stay more upright if the bike starts to slide.


So ... in your considered opinion is ... it makes no difference being upright or leaning ... you "Might" get into a slide either way ... ???

If you are upright... you wont slide (sideways) ... you'll just fall over. The more upright you are ... the quicker you'll be on the tarmac.



Gravity is a bitch ... So ... don't ride in the rain. You'll feel much safer ...

[FJRider]

Maybe you should give up riding then as just because you never drop it in practise it does not mean you will never drop it on the road but if you believe otherwise good luck.

The sensible people practice their skid control practice on bikes that it matters little ... if they DO drop them. Such practice does not need to be on the open road (THAT would be silly AND dangerous)

NO amount of practice will ensure that you wont drop the bike on the open road. But it will (usually) minimize bike damage and injury to yourself.

[Berries]

In my opinion you do not have to be doing anything crazy to loose it in the wet. You only have to look at accident rates on wet days to see that.
Believe it or not tyres are designed to work in the wet, even when leaning, so are your brakes. If you don't have confidence riding in the wet, which you clearly don't given previous posts on white lines and braking fair enough, but no point spreading that particular downer to others and ruining their confidence.

I think you will find that crash rates on wet days go up not due to sudden and unforeseen loss of control due to a wet road but due to people who don't adjust their riding/driving behaviour to take account of the reduced grip and reduced visibility, not only for themselves but for all the vehicles around them. And of course due to those people who don't have the confidence to brake hard when they need to and thus ride in to the back of stationary traffic or drop it when panic braking.


When you are on a lean you are closer to the ground so your distance to hitting it will be less.
So now you are suggesting lean further in the wet because it will hurt less when you crash? I am confused.

[unstuck]

Believe it or not tyres are designed to work in the wet, even when leaning, so are your brakes. If you don't have confidence riding in the wet, which you clearly don't given previous posts on white lines and braking fair enough, but no point spreading that particular downer to others and ruining their confidence.

I think you will find that crash rates on wet days go up not due to sudden and unforeseen loss of control due to a wet road but due to people who don't adjust their riding/driving behaviour to take account of the reduced grip and reduced visibility, not only for themselves but for all the vehicles around them. And of course due to those people who don't have the confidence to brake hard when they need to and thus ride in to the back of stationary traffic or drop it when panic braking.


So now you are suggesting lean further in the wet because it will hurt less when you crash? I am confused.

Just give up mate, The lights are on, but everyone has moved to a different country.:wacko:

[Berries]

I get bored poking the dog though.

[Erelyes]

In my opinion you do not have to be doing anything crazy to loose it in the wet.

If motorcycles spontaneously dump themselves in the wet, due to nebulous patches of oil, grit, tarsnakes, unicorn pee, or whatever, it would seem that the only crazy thing you have to be doing is riding a motorcycle. By your logic it's a wonder you're on this forum at all :Pokey:

[SMOKEU]

Lately I've been pushing myself harder and harder in the wet on the open road, and I'm surprised at how fast I can corner in the wet compared to in the dry. I've got a Michelin PP3 on the front and a PP on the rear, both near new so they're quite grippy in the rain.

Hard braking is still something I'm scared of in the wet.

[SMOKEU]

My message could be interpreted as causing others to loose confidence as you think or save their skin and a big bill if they crash too. So there is 2 ways of looking at it eh. I would say more crashes happen in the wet due to wheels locking up under hard braking rather than people being too frightened to brake hard. If from what you believe that wet roads are no less safe for you than dry roads good luck with your thinking and a few others on here think the same as you too. A few think the same as me also with their reluctance to brake hard in the wet too.

That's why I'm going to insist on ABS on my next bike. Fuck the haters.

[DMNTD]

That's why I'm going to insist on ABS on my next bike. Fuck the haters.

My current bike has ABS and it's fooking lovely

[FJRider]

My message could be interpreted as causing others to loose confidence as you think or save their skin and a big bill if they crash too. So there is 2 ways of looking at it eh. I would say more crashes happen in the wet due to wheels locking up under hard braking rather than people being too frightened to brake hard. If from what you believe that wet roads are no less safe for you than dry roads good luck with your thinking and a few others on here think the same as you too. A few think the same as me also with their reluctance to brake hard in the wet too.

I think Berries message is that the biggest danger of riding in the rain is riding in ignorance of the conditions ... making no allowance for the changed road conditions.

Having the good sticky tyres fitted helps in the wet ... but "helps" is no certainty that grip will extend to the same degree of grip in the wet ... as they would in the dry. Especially as the slippery stuff on roads get slipperier in the wet.

Confidence whilst riding in the rain is important ... but there is a fine line between riding with confidence ... or riding in ignorance or stupidity.

You can only try to ride to the limit of your own ability. And each ride in the wet will improve the confidence you have. And take more time to notice possible issues ... and give more space between you and other road users.

[bogan]

My message could be interpreted as causing others to loose confidence as you think or save their skin and a big bill if they crash too. So there is 2 ways of looking at it eh.

Ambiguous messages for newbies are pretty shit messages, guess all this being proven wrong has caused you to develop a case of ass-covering; now if only you'd do the same to where the rest of the shit erupts from...

[SMOKEU]

My current bike has ABS and it's fooking lovely

That's exactly what the bike magazines say about the modern ABS equipped bikes.

[Madness]

If your advise is correct and mine is wrong why not offer to pay for all the damage done if someone falls as a result of your advise.
Put your money where your mouth is sport!!!!!!

*Advice

You're welcome.

[unstuck]

My message could be interpreted as causing others to loose confidence as you think or save their skin and a big bill if they crash too. So there is 2 ways of looking at it eh. I would say more crashes happen in the wet due to wheels locking up under hard braking rather than people being too frightened to brake hard. If from what you believe that wet roads are no less safe for you than dry roads good luck with your thinking and a few others on here think the same as you too. A few think the same as me also with their reluctance to brake hard in the wet too.

30 odd years of riding on the road, and I aint dropped one YET. :whistle:

[bogan]

If your advise is correct and mine is wrong why not offer to pay for all the damage done if someone falls as a result of your advise.
Put your money where your mouth is sport!!!!!!

Well, as you keep reminding us, there's no accounting for morons, and I don't back morons.

Of course if it were possible to know about and get paid everytime someone avoided an accident as a result of my advice, then I'd be happy to, and retire on the funds as it would more than offset any drops during practice.

[haydes55]

This is not my personal view but I have read ABS and other aids create a false sense of security in that the ABS or whatever electronic aid will save them irrespective of riding/driving ability.


hahahahahahahaha you are my favourite person on KB. Keep up the good work Cassina.


Yet another post of yours I disagree with.

If I have ABS am I supposed to ride faster because I have better braking ability? No I would ride exactly the same, bit should shit hit the fan, the electrical gizmo could be the difference between a drop or stopping in time.

To take the extreme of your argument, if everyone rode bikes with worn out drum brakes, would no one crash because they wouldn't dare going fast or not slowing at every driveway? Or would more Darwin awards be handed out?

[bogan]

Moron yourself those who end up "DROPPING" their bikes on your advise while practising could also die as a result too so your advise is not that bright after all.

No, they couldn't.

You probably want to avoid comparisons of public opinion/gratitude if comparing my advice to yours btw :laugh:

[FJRider]

This is not my personal view but I have read ABS and other aids create a false sense of security in that the ABS or whatever electronic aid will save them irrespective of riding/driving ability.

Crash helmets can give you a false sense of security too ... :pinch:

[unstuck]

Crash helmets can give you a false sense of security too ... :pinch:

As do seatbelts in cars.

[bogan]

As do seatbelts in cars.

Tread on tyres, or for that case, tyres on rims at all :bleh:

[Katman]

I get bored poking the dog though.

Isn't that against the law?

[unstuck]

Tread on tyres, or for that case, tyres on rims at all :bleh:

And doors and "shit". :bleh:

[The Reibz]

How has cassina not got himself dead yet?

[george formby]

How pertinent. I'm off tomorrow & the forecast is for bikes falling over if I brake so I intend going out for a ride & doing some falling off practice. No ABS, front tire is pretty grippy but the rear is just keeping the wheel off the road, probably has less grip than the wheel.
If I am hurled to the tar seal & my bike shatters I will let you all know.

As an aside. If you have an ABS equipped bike, a technological get out of jail free card, do you test it? Wet or dry.

[george formby]

How has cassina not got himself dead yet?

More time driving 4x4's & inter netting than riding.

[Shadowjack]

Haven't read the whole thread - CBA'd - I went for a ride in't country yesterday. Misty, drizzly precipitation, slimy roads.
I tried that "planning ahead"* technique that HK mentioned, and do you know, I got home safely**.
Even treated the TDM to a post-ride oil change.
So, to the OP, ignore the doom merchants here, factor the environmental conditions into your riding, assess their effect on the frictional coefficient of your tyres, and enjoy dripping rainwater over the cafe floors as you enjoy a fine coffee in the hinterland.

* one corner elicited some expected lateral movement, but having "planned ahead", no road surface was injured in the making of this epic.
** despite the rear*** spinning up while cruising across an even larger area of tar-bleed - what torque-monsters these TDM's are.
*** someone's going to ask - BT023's with about 6k kms on them.

[pritch]

[QUOTE=Erelyes;1130730215 By your logic it's a wonder you're on this forum at all[/QUOTE]

Well, "wonder" is not quite the word I would have used. Putting Cassina on ignore has done wonders for my blood pressure.

[buggerit]

This is not my personal view but I have read ABS and other aids create a false sense of security in that the ABS or whatever electronic aid will save them irrespective of riding/driving ability.

And I thought Frank Spencer was a fictional character, Betty!,BETTY!!!

[Erelyes]

Re ABS, when I went on a training course the instructor said, basically - the only time you should ever haul on the picks is in an empty parking lot when you first ride the bike, so you can get used to what the engagement feels like.

Other than that, ride as if you never had it and do NOT haul on the picks and rely on it - that's not what it's for.

Cassina - anyone who gets a false sense of security from electronic aids is a fool.

[george formby]

* one corner elicited some expected lateral movement, but having "planned ahead", no road surface was injured in the making of this epic.
** despite the rear*** spinning up while cruising across an even larger area of tar-bleed - what torque-monsters these TDM's are.
*** someone's going to ask - BT023's with about 6k kms on them.

:woohoo:
* A jolly fine thing, I find myself doing it deliberately more often. To the detriment of our local gravel roads.

** revs increasing as speed decreases. Yup. All in a rainy days work.

*** Some people have faith in mysterious Gods, I have faith in BT's.

As promised, avid readers, I went out toady in heavy precipitation to practice braking & generally try to fall off. Much to my dismay I came home unscathed. Practiced "controlled braking" in a car park, across the white lines. At 50 kmh the bike goes slip, grip, slip, grip, etc. Much more grip than slip. Quite enjoyed it.
I also made an effort to haul the bike down in corners using both brakes, as always. No fally downy. I even plucked up the courage to do it on a notoriously slippy off camber round about. Had a moment because the bike slowed far quicker than anticipated. Touch of throttle and a turn of the head fixed it.

My conclusion is that practising bike control in the rain is not as risky as some posters believe, don't think luck has anything to do with it either.

Bullshit & waffle aside, n00bs, practice somewhere safe.

[DMNTD]

This is not my personal view but I have read ABS and other aids create a false sense of security in that the ABS or whatever electronic aid will save them irrespective of riding/driving ability.

One would have to be a total idiotic muppet to feel that any additional aid built into their car or motorcycle will remove any chance of an incident.
I can however guarantee that said electronic aids can and do help in an event.
Muppets are muppets, no amount of additional help will...help

[ellipsis]

.........

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/jSFLZ-MzIhM?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


........

[nzspokes]

How has cassina not got himself dead yet?

Didn't we establish it was she?

[Tigadee]

As do seatbelts in cars.

:facepalm: Pffft! We all know seatbelts are to help emergency services find your body... :lol:

[Urano]

I AM A TOTALLY CONVINCED ABS SUPPORTER.
and this since years, when morons in pubs were teaching others how better they brake than that large, bulky and heavy box, which more than being useless will slow you down in laguna seca...

but, in this case, what cassina said is not totally out of sense...



If I have ABS am I supposed to ride faster because I have better braking ability?

actually, it seems it could be:
there is a theory, still under verification, called "homeostasis of risk".
it has been proposed in 1994 by Professor Wilde of kingstone university, canada.
it is based on the observation that people with better equipped vehicles tends to count more on the equipment and thus drive faster, keep shorter distance and brake later than others.
this seems to be true even in "cross-situational" cases, as people seems to stay closer to cyclists who wear helmets than to those who doesn't because of the "increased sense of overall safety of the situation".

this seems to be a transitory effect, but still we have to be aware of it.
if sometime in the future i'll find time and will to translate my safety book in english i can post you a wider abstract on this...

in my opinion, anyway, being conscious if this effect is another way to increase our safety, and IN NO WAY THIS MEANS THAT ABS WILL EVER DECREASE YOUR SAFETY COMPARED TO A BIKE WITHOUT IT.






One would have to be a total idiotic muppet to feel that any additional aid built into their car or motorcycle will remove any chance of an incident.


you know, idiots are the larger resource of the planet.
more than water and minerals, if aliens will ever invade us, they'll be prolly after idiots...
and i suggest to help them. the aliens i mean...

[FJRider]

in my opinion, anyway, being conscious if this effect is another way to increase our safety, and IN NO WAY THIS MEANS THAT ABS WILL EVER DECREASE YOUR SAFETY COMPARED TO A BIKE WITHOUT IT.

That's about the same as saying ... Condoms will always prevent pregnancy.


you know, idiots are the larger resource of the planet.
more than water and minerals, if aliens will ever invade us, they'll be prolly after idiots...
and i suggest to help them. the aliens i mean...


They'll be coming for YOU then ...

[unstuck]

They'll be coming for YOU then ...

Nope we are all full up thanks.:shifty:

[FJRider]

Nope we are all full up thanks.:shifty:

Obviously ... the "Higher intelligence" suspected of aliens ... is bullshit then ..

[unstuck]

Obviously ... the "Higher intelligence" suspected of aliens ... is bullshit then ..

Yep. We just like fuckin with ya's.:2thumbsup

[haydes55]

I AM A TOTALLY CONVINCED ABS SUPPORTER.

and this since years, when morons in pubs were teaching others how better they brake than that large, bulky and heavy box, which more than being useless will slow you down in laguna seca...



but, in this case, what cassina said is not totally out of sense...







actually, it seems it could be:

there is a theory, still under verification, called "homeostasis of risk".

it has been proposed in 1994 by Professor Wilde of kingstone university, canada.

it is based on the observation that people with better equipped vehicles tends to count more on the equipment and thus drive faster, keep shorter distance and brake later than others.

this seems to be true even in "cross-situational" cases, as people seems to stay closer to cyclists who wear helmets than to those who doesn't because of the "increased sense of overall safety of the situation".



this seems to be a transitory effect, but still we have to be aware of it.

if sometime in the future i'll find time and will to translate my safety book in english i can post you a wider abstract on this...



in my opinion, anyway, being conscious if this effect is another way to increase our safety, and IN NO WAY THIS MEANS THAT ABS WILL EVER DECREASE YOUR SAFETY COMPARED TO A BIKE WITHOUT IT.









you know, idiots are the larger resource of the planet.

more than water and minerals, if aliens will ever invade us, they'll be prolly after idiots...

and i suggest to help them. the aliens i mean...


Did you watch the movie "Idiocricy"? (spl?)

[Urano]

That's about the same as saying ... Condoms will always prevent pregnancy.


nope.
that's about the same as saying: knowing that condoms may tear will increase your safety, but in no way condoms will give you more pregnancies compared to sex without them.




They'll be coming for YOU then ...

don't think so. i leave the toilet open when i piss. it bothers them...

[Urano]

Did you watch the movie "Idiocricy"? (spl?)

ya... :D :D

[FJRider]

nope.
that's about the same as saying: knowing that condoms may tear will increase your safety, but in no way condoms will give you more pregnancies compared to sex without them.

Obviously NOT speaking from experience ... :whocares:

ABS will not save from ALL issues on the road. On oil/fuel spills and a loose surface ... it has little or no advantage. Brake too late and you get the same result. ABS is a tool/aid to assist you ... not a failsafe safety devise. It's better to hope you wont need it. And ride to that effect .. ;)


don't think so. i leave the toilet open when i piss. it bothers them...

At least .. as you're sitting down ... you'll see them coming ... :shifty:

[Erelyes]

Obviously ... the "Higher intelligence" suspected of aliens ... is bullshit then ..

The surest sign that there is intelligent life out there is that it has not tried to contact us.

[unstuck]

The surest sign that there is intelligent life out there is that it has not tried to contact us.

Is that right.:shifty:

[FJRider]

The surest sign that there is intelligent life out there is that it has not tried to contact us.

Not tried to contact you .. you mean ... :innocent:

Unstuck is a friend .. :beer:

[unstuck]

Funny thing is, people are being contacted all over the world. But if you aint in the "know" then your not gonna "know".:msn-wink:

[Urano]

ABS will not save from ALL issues on the road.

whoever said that?? :facepalm: http://www.roadride.org/forum/Smileys/default/alien.gif

[unstuck]

whoever said that?? :facepalm: http://www.roadride.org/forum/Smileys/default/alien.gif

Fuck thats cool.:Punk::Punk:

[george formby]

I has a good tip for riding in the rain. Make sure that your troos are as tight as possible around your boots, gaffa taped even. Or like in the old days use slices of inner tube as elastic bands.
Why, you ask?
Big fucking puddles that you can't see because the road is awash, your visor is covered with a million droplets, it's night time & your headlight is crap.
Went through some standing water tonight at about 70kmh. No idea how deep it was but the bike turned into a buffalo & the water shot up me strides above the knee. Wet nuts when I got home due to wicking.:shit::laugh:

[bogan]

I has a good tip for riding in the rain. Make sure that your troos are as tight as possible around your boots, gaffa taped even. Or like in the old days use slices of inner tube as elastic bands.
Why, you ask?
Big fucking puddles that you can't see because the road is awash, your visor is covered with a million droplets, it's night time & your headlight is crap.
Went through some standing water tonight at about 70kmh. No idea how deep it was but the bike turned into a buffalo & the water shot up me strides above the knee. Wet nuts when I got home due to wicking.:shit::laugh:

Mate, you think that is bad for wicking, I gotta put that bodyglide shit on for running in my space shoes so I don't get chaffed thunderthighs; shit gets all waxy and wicks right up the buttcrack. Gotta be careful the next morning as a careless wipe with poorly manicured thumbnail could perforate ones scrotum...








...visualise it :eek:

[Tigadee]

Wet nuts when I got home due to wicking.

Try slathering your balls up with vaseline to keep them dry...

I don't know if it works but I want someone to try! :eek:

[pritch]

Try slathering your balls up with vaseline to keep them dry...

I don't know if it works but I want someone to try! :eek:

Well, if Bogan offers, you had better get him to get a manicure. :whistle:

[bogan]

Well, if Bogan offers, you had better get him to get a manicure. :whistle:

Mate, since the stakes are this high, I've got a regular weekly booking :banana:

[SMOKEU]

Mate, you think that is bad for wicking, I gotta put that bodyglide shit on for running in my space shoes so I don't get chaffed thunderthighs; shit gets all waxy and wicks right up the buttcrack. Gotta be careful the next morning as a careless wipe with poorly manicured thumbnail could perforate ones scrotum...








...visualise it :eek:

:puke: :sick:

[biketimus_prime]

Just resurrecting this thread to get some advice. Not related to riding in the rain

So I've been practicing emergency braking since fitting new brake pads today. I know how far I can go with my front and my rear if I use only one or the other, loading the front gradually rather than suddenly etc etc

Anyways I find that when I use both front and back to brake, the rear loses grip. I can countersteer and can come to a stop even with it locking up round 30kph. However that means I'm losing valuable grip I can use for braking!
I understand this is because as I load the front more, the rear has less grip available.

What should I do to get every last bit of braking out of the bike? I found pulsing the front brake stops the lock up as I suppose more weight is put on the rear when I let off the front. Or should I instead ease off the rear and push more on the front?

I suppose easing off (But still braking with it lightly) the front and braking with the rear more is safer and more predictable, but less braking force available and vice versa means if I lock up the front I'll go down if I don't catch it quick enough...

What are your opinions?

My front tyre is excellent too. Can't believe how much braking I can apply to it and I haven't even locked up yet!

[haydes55]

Just resurrecting this thread to get some advice. Not related to riding in the rain

So I've been practicing emergency braking since fitting new brake pads today. I know how far I can go with my front and my rear if I use only one or the other, loading the front gradually rather than suddenly etc etc

Anyways I find that when I use both front and back to brake, the rear loses grip. I can countersteer and can come to a stop even with it locking up round 30kph. However that means I'm losing valuable grip I can use for braking!
I understand this is because as I load the front more, the rear has less grip available.

What should I do to get every last bit of braking out of the bike? I found pulsing the front brake stops the lock up as I suppose more weight is put on the rear when I let off the front. Or should I instead ease off the rear and push more on the front?

I suppose easing off (But still braking with it lightly) the front and braking with the rear more is safer and more predictable, but less braking force available and vice versa means if I lock up the front I'll go down if I don't catch it quick enough...

What are your opinions?

My front tyre is excellent too. Can't believe how much braking I can apply to it and I haven't even locked up yet!


I did a few practice emergency braking sessions on my old motard (so big suspension travel). I had the same problem, front brake was good and a long black line from the rear.

I learned that if I apply the rear brake, the bike squats lower. If I apply the front brake, the bike tips forward and the rear lifts.

The cure was simple, hit the rear brake hard first, the bike squats, then brake as normal on the front, the bike doesn't lift the rear so much.

On my new bike, I do the same, but its harder to tell if it helps as much without the massive suspension travel.

[russd7]

just forget about ya rear break altogether, if ya doin it right ya back wheel will be off the ground anyway

[george formby]

I'm not getting involved. Questions like that can start wars.<_<

[george formby]

If I was that much unsure of my braking ability I think I would get a bike with ABS.

There goes Poland.

[bogan]

There goes Poland.

Why? did Fatty McSaggy tits lock up her front end again and wipe it out? I just hope canine casualties were kept to a minimum this time.

[george formby]

Oy! Don't knock saggy tits. Best thing ever on a winters night. Like half full hot water bottles that never go cold & self adhesive, too.

My posts are merely alluding to the fact that braking is a black art & the discussion of such can become vigorous, slanderous and vitriolic.

Belgium is getting nervous.

Concur wid the canines, best stoppers going & still suffer.

[RDJ]

At the risk of igniting a discussion that goes beyond where it should, I have lived for quite a few years in places where if you don't want to ride in the rain you can't ride more than one day in four or five; and having ridden across the continental United States in autumn and winter where once I exited Arizona and New Mexico rain was more frequent than not, I found the following habits to be my friends when in a position where braking was inevitable and traction was lacking, mostly due to rain but not always...

- Keep more than the average distance from the person upfront. When someone moves up and occupies the space, I back off further.
- Engine braking was my friend. Admittedly, it was easy because I was riding a two speed semiautomatic gearbox'd V8 motorcycle most of the time... So there was no clutch mechanism to modify and behaviourally recalibrate. But deceleration with engine braking I always found to be less stressful and more gradual.
- Stay in a lower gear because there is no way we are going to overheat the engine or for that matter, whatever clutch or clutch substitute is involved in the transmission.
- Keep a lookout three or four or five cars / trucks ahead. When brake lights start coming on, my brake light comes on... Even if I'm just taking up enough travel in the brake lever to make my brake light come on, if you see what I mean.
- If there is someone trying to crawl up my bike's exhaust I will pull over, and let him through. Doubly so in the wet.
- Trucks significantly reduce visibility for seconds, especially oncoming trucks. Sometimes I'll change lanes just to reduce the spray.

[biketimus_prime]

I did a few practice emergency braking sessions on my old motard (so big suspension travel). I had the same problem, front brake was good and a long black line from the rear.

I learned that if I apply the rear brake, the bike squats lower. If I apply the front brake, the bike tips forward and the rear lifts.

The cure was simple, hit the rear brake hard first, the bike squats, then brake as normal on the front, the bike doesn't lift the rear so much.

On my new bike, I do the same, but its harder to tell if it helps as much without the massive suspension travel.

Yes I always get on the back brake first and then the front. Your findings match what Nick Ienatsch says in his book about first applying the rear brake to squat the bike and slow down the transfer to the front. Same reason I do it. However it's still possible to lock the rear as the front gets more loaded even with the back brake on and that's where I'm stuck as to let off the front or rear.



At the risk of igniting a discussion that goes beyond where it should, I have lived for quite a few years in places where if you don't want to ride in the rain you can't ride more than one day in four or five; and having ridden across the continental United States in autumn and winter where once I exited Arizona and New Mexico rain was more frequent than not, I found the following habits to be my friends when in a position where braking was inevitable and traction was lacking, mostly due to rain but not always...

- Keep more than the average distance from the person upfront. When someone moves up and occupies the space, I back off further.
- Engine braking was my friend. Admittedly, it was easy because I was riding a two speed semiautomatic gearbox'd V8 motorcycle most of the time... So there was no clutch mechanism to modify and behaviourally recalibrate. But deceleration with engine braking I always found to be less stressful and more gradual.
- Stay in a lower gear because there is no way we are going to overheat the engine or for that matter, whatever clutch or clutch substitute is involved in the transmission.
- Keep a lookout three or four or five cars / trucks ahead. When brake lights start coming on, my brake light comes on... Even if I'm just taking up enough travel in the brake lever to make my brake light come on, if you see what I mean.
- If there is someone trying to crawl up my bike's exhaust I will pull over, and let him through. Doubly so in the wet.
- Trucks significantly reduce visibility for seconds, especially oncoming trucks. Sometimes I'll change lanes just to reduce the spray.

Yeah I have ridden a lot in the rain on my commutes and those are awesome tips. What really annoys me is when you leave a decent 3-4 second gap and some idiot cuts in between.
Also nothing worse than having to go 50 over the bridge on a bloody windy day. Faster I go, the more stable I am in the wind but all the cars slow right down!

[haydes55]

Yes I always get on the back brake first and then the front. Your findings match what Nick Ienatsch says in his book about first applying the rear brake to squat the bike and slow down the transfer to the front. Same reason I do it. However it's still possible to lock the rear as the front gets more loaded even with the back brake on and that's where I'm stuck as to let off the front or rear.




Yeah I have ridden a lot in the rain on my commutes and those are awesome tips. What really annoys me is when you leave a decent 3-4 second gap and some idiot cuts in between.
Also nothing worse than having to go 50 over the bridge on a bloody windy day. Faster I go, the more stable I am in the wind but all the cars slow right down!

You can try either just letting the rear lock up, focus on the front brake as hard as you can, or use mainly engine braking and after the initial braking, ease up on the rear brake. In an emergency, it can be quite hard to think about what other traffic is doing, where escape routes are and on top of that 2 different wheels to try maintain traction. In the end, the best style for braking is keeping traction, but being alert to the situation and ensuring the front brake is working at it's best is more important. My current bike hasn't got a very strong rear brake anyway so I know I can sit a bit of weight on the pedal and chop through the gears, the old motard had an awesome rear brake.

[mossy1200]

6 months and 17 pages later and its still raining.
Time to move to a dryer area.

[SNF]

Just fucken ride! Remember its slippery and what you might get away with in the dry you probably won't get away with in the wet.

[Banditbandit]

back brake

That's the other lever down by my foot, opposite side to the gear stick isn't it???

[Metastable]

1994 by Professor Wilde of kingstone university, canada.


LOL - never heard that university before. :D Queens University in Kingston.... maybe.

[biketimus_prime]

That's the other lever down by my foot, opposite side to the gear stick isn't it???

I'm actually amazed how many people say they never use the back brake. I use it almost as much as my front... Even on the motorway to brush off some speed I gently apply it and use my front brake for the last bit of braking. Never had an issue stopping but I'm just as comfortable using only my front to stop if needed. I'd just rather have the rear lock out or lose grip than the front, such as when coming to a stop at lights and slipping over oil and other road grime as has happened a few times.

[awayatc]

Thing I remember about riding a 250 was insistent quest to increase speed rather then decrease.....



for what its worth:

Large portions of Merikens apparently only use rearbrake......
Main reason why linked brakes came in existence......

Sounds to me your bike is very light at rear, thats why it locks up so easily....
also means it doesnt do a great job slowing you down much....
with or without locking up...
So just ride, and don't overthink it to much...

[Berries]

I'd just rather have the rear lock out or lose grip than the front, such as when coming to a stop at lights and slipping over oil and other road grime as has happened a few times.
Wow. If you are having to rely on your back brake because you lock the front under non emergency braking then I would suggest you have a problem with either your technique or the bike.


I'm actually amazed how many people say they never use the back brake. I use it almost as much as my front.
Out of interest, how long have you been riding?

[BlackSheepLogic]

I'm just as comfortable using only my front to stop if needed.

Your front brakes account for 80% or more of your bikes brakes, make use of them.


I'd just rather have the rear lock out or lose grip than the front, such as when coming to a stop at lights and slipping over oil and other road grime as has happened a few times.

You need to get more comfortable with using your front brakes under heavy braking situations - practice emergency breaking which is a very good skill to have on a bike.

[Ender EnZed]

I'm actually amazed how many people say they never use the back brake. I use it almost as much as my front... Even on the motorway to brush off some speed I gently apply it and use my front brake for the last bit of braking. Never had an issue stopping but I'm just as comfortable using only my front to stop if needed. I'd just rather have the rear lock out or lose grip than the front, such as when coming to a stop at lights and slipping over oil and other road grime as has happened a few times.

You're not using enough front brake. Have you ever locked it? If so, did you snatch at it? If you think that you locked it after exceeding peak stopping ability then you're imagining things and you need more practice.

For maximum stopping power I rest my toe on the rear brake and devote ~100% of my attention to the front.

[biketimus_prime]

I've been riding since 10th March 2014, so 7 months or so.

I think you guys are coming off with the wrong impression. It's not that I'm uncomfortable using the front or that I don't know how to, it's that I rarely need the huge braking power the front provides when I ride around. The weak back brake stops me just fine when coupled with engine braking with a bit of light front braking, sometimes. I've braked hard enough on the front where the rear wheel has almost come up before but I just never need to brake that hard most of the time. The only time I've had the front slip is when I went over gravel while coming to a stop and another time at the lights where it slipped a bit as I was braking. Not due to me braking suddenly or anything and I just said I'd rather a situation where my rear slipped in that case than the front.

It's only when I do practice braking that hard that I find the rear locks up well before the front and wondered what to do in that situation. Whether to ease off the back or the front.

[Ender EnZed]

I've been riding since 10th March 2014, so 7 months or so.

I think you guys are coming off with the wrong impression. It's not that I'm uncomfortable using the front or that I don't know how to, it's that I rarely need the huge braking power the front provides when I ride around. The weak back brake stops me just fine when coupled with engine braking with a bit of light front braking, sometimes. I've braked hard enough on the front where the rear wheel has almost come up before but I just never need to brake that hard most of the time. The only time I've had the front slip is when I went over gravel while coming to a stop and another time at the lights where it slipped a bit as I was braking. Not due to me braking suddenly or anything and I just said I'd rather a situation where my rear slipped in that case than the front.

It's only when I do practice braking that hard that I find the rear locks up well before the front and wondered what to do in that situation. Whether to ease off the back or the front.

The main point to understand is that the back brake has almost nothing to offer in terms of stopping capacity. The fact that you use it a lot in everyday riding does not in any way contradict this, it just means you don't use much of your available braking capacity.

That's fine, neither do I. I probably use the back as much as the front under 80km/h but I only use it under 15km/h.

I'll say it again: The important point here is that if you want to slow down quickly, use the front brake.

[BlackSheepLogic]

I'll say it again: The important point here is that if you want to slow down quickly, use the front brake.

Ender EnZed, Agree 100% with what you said, but I would like to expand on one of your point a little bit.

biketimus_prime, in a high stress situation how we react is often by reflex, if you generally slow down using the back brake and touch the front brake once in a while it is quite likely when in a stressful situation and need to slow down quickly that you will instinctively hammer the back brake and it may be the last thing you ever do. You also seem from your post to be apprehensive of the front brake and the potential loss of control - this WILL impact your decision under stress.

While Ender EnZed a more experienced rider may only use the back brake at speeds < 15Km/h I'm suggesting for you to train yourself to use both brakes all of the time. This will help your confidence in using the front brake, gain confidence in control of the bike under braking and you will make better decisions under stress. Front slips deal with it if it happens - if you have that level of confidence it won't impact you decision process.

[Ender EnZed]

biketimus_prime, in a high stress situation how we react is often by reflex, if you generally slow down using the back brake and touch the front brake once in a while it is quite likely when in a stressful situation and need to slow down quickly that you will instinctively hammer the back brake and it may be the last thing you ever do. You also seem from your post to be apprehensive of the front brake and the potential loss of control - this WILL impact your decision under stress.

Couldn't agree more. When the shit hits the fan you're going to do the thing you're used to doing. It's wildly unrealistic to think that immediately after a car pulls out on you on your way to work is going to be the point in time that you apply the skills you've read about on the internet.

[biketimus_prime]

I never thought about it as how I'd deal under a high stress situation... I do keep 3 fingers over my brake lever when I lane split etc but I suppose if I always brake with the back brake at other times, It'll impact how I react when I need to brake quick.
I think I am a bit worried about the front brake, yes. I'm actually shit scared of locking up the front and falling off. I have had many RWD cars before bikes and I feel a lot more comfortable with the rear losing grip. This whole front end losing grip is new to me, it's nothing like understeer in a car as such.

I mean I can brake with the front and brake hard and well without locking up HOWEVER whenever I come to fast stop. BUT only if I really tell myself to use it more than the rear.
Otherwise it's always been my rear that locks up. Even the other night I told myself "I will stop before that white line aaaaand now" and braked really hard. I stopped well before the line, surprised myself too, but my rear was wiggling all the way as I came to a stop. I subconsciously apply more rear brake than front. The rear even went out a bit far enough to buck me off and back down, mini highside. Need more practice believing in the front brake I suppose.

[oneofsix]

I never thought about it as how I'd deal under a high stress situation... I do keep 3 fingers over my brake lever when I lane split etc but I suppose if I always brake with the back brake at other times, It'll impact how I react when I need to brake quick.
I think I am a bit worried about the front brake, yes. I'm actually shit scared of locking up the front and falling off. I have had many RWD cars before bikes and I feel a lot more comfortable with the rear losing grip. This whole front end losing grip is new to me, it's nothing like understeer in a car as such.

I mean I can brake with the front and brake hard and well without locking up HOWEVER whenever I come to fast stop. BUT only if I really tell myself to use it more than the rear.
Otherwise it's always been my rear that locks up. Even the other night I told myself "I will stop before that white line aaaaand now" and braked really hard. I stopped well before the line, surprised myself too, but my rear was wiggling all the way as I came to a stop. I subconsciously apply more rear brake than front. The rear even went out a bit far enough to buck me off and back down, mini highside. Need more practice believing in the front brake I suppose.

Sounds like you are starting to get the point. How at least go do one of the ACC sponsored courses and learn a bit more. As the bike stops the weight goes forward, this extra pressure on the front keeps it rotating as it presses into the road. Stop looking down at the white line, you are aren't you? Head up and that rear wheel is more likely to stay in line. Once stopped is the time to check how well you did.

[Ender EnZed]

I think I am a bit worried about the front brake, yes. I'm actually shit scared of locking up the front and falling off.....
Need more practice believing in the front brake I suppose.

Give it some proper practice. i.e. In a car park with trial runs increasing the amount you squeeze focusing on doing it smoothly and progressively until you either lock the front or lift the rear.

Under these kind of conditions, when you're ready for it, locking the front isn't that bad. I'm seen noobs do it for the first time ever several times on a variety of bikes and they didn't bin it. Neither did I. Don't fear it like the devil. I've seen very ordinary bikes lift the rear wheel with the front in a puddle.

Can't say I've tried an 04 GSX250 personally but it's not a cruiser or a big tourer so there's a very high chance that maximum stopping power happens somewhere very much toward if not beyond the point where the back wheel is just slightly off the ground. i.e. 100% on the front tyre.

[Ender EnZed]

Stop looking down at the white line, you are aren't you? Head up and that rear wheel is more likely to stay in line. Once stopped is the time to check how well you did.

That's a good point.

Head up, eyes forward (don't look down), elbows bent and arms tensed enough to react but definitely not rigid. And most of all squeeze that front brake lever like you're juicing a lemon in a small car all over 12 guys worth of fish 'n chips.

[Berries]

I've been riding since 10th March 2014, so 7 months or so.
I guessed as much. Practice/experience is all you need.


It's not that I'm uncomfortable using the front or that I don't know how to, it's that I rarely need the huge braking power the front provides when I ride around.
The huge braking power at the front only comes from how much you squeeze the lever. The only time I need huge braking power is when I have fucked up, the person in front of me has fucked up or I want to enjoy huge braking power by braking late. I very rarely need 'huge' braking power, but the only time I use my back brake is when going down my steep clay drive in the wet, on ice, and when the road looks really dodgy and I think I have overcooked it. And when stopped on a hill.

But then who's to say I am right? I could use the back brake more, but I go back to my pushbike days when the back brake was for wicked skids while the front brake was for actual stopping. If you stop you stop, who is to say which is right or wrong as long as you don't fall off?


I think I am a bit worried about the front brake, yes. I'm actually shit scared of locking up the front and falling off. I have had many RWD cars before bikes and I feel a lot more comfortable with the rear losing grip. This whole front end losing grip is new to me, it's nothing like understeer in a car as such.
Yep, cars can be fun but best not compare them to bikes. Bikes hurt much more and much quicker when you get it wrong.


I mean I can brake with the front and brake hard and well without locking up HOWEVER whenever I come to fast stop. BUT only if I really tell myself to use it more than the rear. Otherwise it's always been my rear that locks up. Even the other night I told myself "I will stop before that white line aaaaand now" and braked really hard. I stopped well before the line, surprised myself too, but my rear was wiggling all the way as I came to a stop. I subconsciously apply more rear brake than front. The rear even went out a bit far enough to buck me off and back down, mini highside. Need more practice believing in the front brake I suppose.
So with 7 months experience, who told you to use the back brake so much? I am not kidding when I say I don't use it on a day to day basis. Simple physics dictates that the front brake is going to be more powerful so why not just concentrate on getting to know how that one works? You might not lose the fear of locking it, but when you know how far you can go you'll be surprised how hard you can brake.

Practice is what you need, that's all. I wouldn't rely too much on KB advice because it is so varied, just get out and ride and put a bit more trust in your front brakes.

[Zapf]

I have had many RWD cars before bikes and I feel a lot more comfortable with the rear losing grip. This whole front end losing grip is new to me, it's nothing like understeer in a car as such.

But my rear was wiggling all the way as I came to a stop. I subconsciously apply more rear brake than front. The rear even went out a bit far enough to buck me off and back down, mini highside. Need more practice believing in the front brake I suppose.

My background does include 500hp RWD cars. I have been riding since 2005 and have had many bikes since and some 150hp ones and 50hp ones.

Amount of Friction for stopping is a function contact patch and force (downward). The heavier you press down on a rag, the harder it is to pull it out from under you.
Same thing with the braking using the front, you progressively load up the front suspension as you brake harder (smoothly) and the amount of friction will increase proportionally.
As the bike weight & your weight (as you fight the deceleration) is transferred to the front, the amount of friction in the rear decreases.
You want to now apply a touch of rear brake.
The function of the rear brake at this time is to stablise the rear, and also to create a small amount of drag by braking the rear wheel so that it less wants to over take the front.
Your fingers (front brake) has much much finer control than the foot (rear) brake, by modulating the 2 you can achieve some pretty awesome control.

DO NOT lock up the rear and have it wiggling as you have done prior. You WILL harm yourself and your bike.

The above braking method applies to both Dry and Wet

When it is WET. You simply do everything a bit slower. Brake further out from corner, accelerate slower... etc

While cornering in the WET, keep the bike more upright. But lean yourself out more into the corner, put your weight onto the pegs thru your leg. Practice changing the lean angle of the bike with weight on different pegs.

Go for a long long ride in the WET. By the time you come home you will know how to ride in the wet.

[biketimus_prime]

Thanks you guys, I've taken to using the front more now since all this advice and am practicing progressively loading the front. I have surprised myself in how well I can brake the front too. I still use the back brake to help progressively load the front, but much more of my braking is done on the front now than before. Probably 90% now rather than what used to be like 60%. Also going to bleed the front brakes this weekend as I've put in new pads but I didn't do the fluid. Should be another learning curve after that!

Will report back if things go horribly wrong or something but so far so good! :niceone: