More evidence for raising speed limits

[Bassmatt]

Danish study over two years finds that raising limits helps to cut accidents and fatalities

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/86295/speed-limit-increase-makes-roads-safer

"The Association of Chief Police Officers would not comment."
:laugh::laugh:

[FJRider]

Danish study over two years finds that ...

There are plenty of Muppets here in NZ now that believe that 100 km/hr is ok in thick fog (night OR day) ... with visibility less than the distance to the next marker post. Simply because that is the speed limit ... so it must be safe to travel at that speed. (and they're good drivers)

[willytheekid]

"The Association of Chief Police Officers would not comment*"....:killingme

*as they found it also drastically cut profits!

[russd7]

There are plenty of Muppets here in NZ now that believe that 100 km/hr is ok in thick fog (night OR day) ... with visibility less than the distance to the next marker post. Simply because that is the speed limit ... so it must be safe to travel at that speed. (and they're good drivers)

you surely are shitting me, why the fuck would you travel slower than 120km/hr, get where you are going quicker in order to get off the roads and out of the way of all the idiots out there:no:

[ZeroIndex]

One way to increase profits would be to set up a stop sign camera on this street. (http://tinyurl.com/nv5lqm2)
I was at Black Sands cafe yesterday afternoon, and only 2 out of 20+ cars came to a complete stop... except when there was traffic - aka they treat it like a yield sign.

[avgas]

One way to increase profits would be to set up a stop sign camera on this street. (http://tinyurl.com/nv5lqm2)
I was at Black Sands cafe yesterday afternoon, and only 2 out of 20+ cars came to a complete stop... except when there was traffic - aka they treat it like a yield sign.
There are no yield signs in NZ. Only Give WAY.

There are significant differences between them. Yield means to take notice of nearby traffic, Give way means if you see traffic YOU MUST STOP. They have right of way.

Old man rant over.

[Berries]

One way to increase profits would be to set up a stop sign camera on this street. (http://tinyurl.com/nv5lqm2)
I was at Black Sands cafe yesterday afternoon, and only 2 out of 20+ cars came to a complete stop... except when there was traffic - aka they treat it like a yield sign.
Bet you didn't see any crashes though did you? Why put a camera up and penalise people for driving safely when 90% non compliance would suggest this is another bullshit stop sign?

The stop signs that really are needed don't need enforcement because they work. The ones that need enforcement don't work because they have either been put in as a knee jerk reaction to an unrelated crash or the someone buckled due to pressure from a loud local. Looking at your Google map I would say that at certain times of day you probably have to stop to make sure it is safe to go. At other times you could do a left turn or even enter the middle bit without stopping because visibility would be excellent. In other words it should be a give way sign.

The solution is in fact too simple. Get rid of all stop signs and only use give way signs. If someone enters an intersection causing priority traffic to deviate in speed or path then you get a ticket - you failed to give way and your behaviour has had an impact. Getting stopped/spoken to/demerits for not having your wheels stop at an intersection when there is no traffic approaching is complete and utter shit.

[yevjenko]

Bet you didn't see any crashes though did you? Why put a camera up and penalise people for driving safely when 90% non compliance would suggest this is another bullshit stop sign?

The stop signs that really are needed don't need enforcement because they work. The ones that need enforcement don't work because they have either been put in as a knee jerk reaction to an unrelated crash or the someone buckled due to pressure from a loud local. Looking at your Google map I would say that at certain times of day you probably have to stop to make sure it is safe to go. At other times you could do a left turn or even enter the middle bit without stopping because visibility would be excellent. In other words it should be a give way sign.

The solution is in fact too simple. Get rid of all stop signs and only use give way signs. If someone enters an intersection causing priority traffic to deviate in speed or path then you get a ticket - you failed to give way and your behaviour has had an impact. Getting stopped/spoken to/demerits for not having your wheels stop at an intersection when there is no traffic approaching is complete and utter shit.

This.

In shock that sense has been uttered on kb

sent from my phone (so scuze auto correct typos)

[F5 Dave]

Bet you didn't see any crashes though did you? Why put a camera up and penalise people for driving safely when 90% non compliance would suggest this is another bullshit stop sign?

The stop signs that really are needed don't need enforcement because they work. The ones that need enforcement don't work because they have either been put in as a knee jerk reaction to an unrelated crash or the someone buckled due to pressure from a loud local. Looking at your Google map I would say that at certain times of day you probably have to stop to make sure it is safe to go. At other times you could do a left turn or even enter the middle bit without stopping because visibility would be excellent. In other words it should be a give way sign.

The solution is in fact too simple. Get rid of all stop signs and only use give way signs. If someone enters an intersection causing priority traffic to deviate in speed or path then you get a ticket - you failed to give way and your behaviour has had an impact. Getting stopped/spoken to/demerits for not having your wheels stop at an intersection when there is no traffic approaching is complete and utter shit.
Stop at top of my street is example. Up hill T intersection that you really need to edge forward at 5-10kph to make a go or stop desicion. Problem with give ways is people drive through them at 50kph if no one is directly in front of them.

Turns out that most people are cunts.

[Berries]

There are no yield signs in NZ. Only Give WAY.

There are significant differences between them. Yield means to take notice of nearby traffic, Give way means if you see traffic YOU MUST STOP.
No. Give way means you give way, this may not require you to come to a complete stop - most times it will but there is no legal compulsion to do so. I can think of many intersections where it would be ridiculous and quite possibly dangerous to do so.

I always assumed that yield meant the very same thing as give way, you "take notice of other traffic" to use your words, and if necessary give way to them, or yield the right of way to them. I would be very interested if this isn't the case.

[ZeroIndex]

There are no yield signs in NZ. Only Give WAY.

There are significant differences between them. Yield means to take notice of nearby traffic, Give way means if you see traffic YOU MUST STOP. They have right of way.

Old man rant over.
Copy from wiki: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yield_sign)
In road transport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_transport), a yield (Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada), Ireland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland), South Africa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa), South Korea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Korea) and the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)) or give way (United Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom), other Commonwealth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Nations) and English-speaking countries) traffic sign (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_sign) indicates that each driver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driving) must prepare to stop if necessary to let a driver on another approach proceed. A driver who stops has yielded the right of way (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priority_(right_of_way)) to another. In contrast, a stop sign (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_sign) requires each driver to stop completely before proceeding, even if no other traffic is present. Particular regulations regarding appearance, installation, and compliance with the signs vary by jurisdiction.

I'm from South Africa, so I've grown up calling them yield signs. I know they're called "give way" signs, but since they're treated exactly the same, I've never given much thought to changing my vocabulary.

Also, in regards to other comments: Yeah, it would make a lot more sense if they changed a lot of the stop signs to yield/give way.

[Big Dog]

Copy from wiki: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yield_sign)
In road transport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_transport), a yield (Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada), Ireland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland), South Africa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa), South Korea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Korea) and the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)) or give way (United Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom), other Commonwealth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Nations) and English-speaking countries) traffic sign (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_sign) indicates that each driver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driving) must prepare to stop if necessary to let a driver on another approach proceed. A driver who stops has yielded the right of way (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priority_(right_of_way)) to another. In contrast, a stop sign (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_sign) requires each driver to stop completely before proceeding, even if no other traffic is present. Particular regulations regarding appearance, installation, and compliance with the signs vary by jurisdiction.

I'm from South Africa, so I've grown up calling them yield signs. I know they're called "give way" signs, but since they're treated exactly the same, I've never given much thought to changing my vocabulary.

Also, in regards to other comments: Yeah, it would make a lot more sense if they changed a lot of the stop signs to yield/give way.

If all new signs went up as yields would the lower cost of painting the shorter notice outweigh the trees cut down to explain there is little practical difference?


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[FJRider]

Yield means to take notice of nearby traffic, Give way means if you see traffic YOU MUST STOP. They have right of way.

Old man rant over.

Buy a new dictionary ...

My pick is in bold ... yours failed to be mentioned.

yield (yēld)
v. yield·ed, yield·ing, yields
v.tr.
1.
a. To give forth by or as if by a natural process, especially by cultivation: a field that yields many bushels of corn.
b. To furnish as return for effort or investment; be productive of: an investment that yields high percentages.
2.
a. To give over possession of, as in deference or defeat; surrender.
b. To give up (an advantage, for example) to another; concede.
v.intr.
1.
a. To give forth a natural product; be productive.
b. To produce a return for effort or investment: bonds that yield well.
2.
a. To give up, as in defeat; surrender or submit.
b. To give way to pressure or force: The door yielded to a gentle push.
c. To give way to argument, persuasion, influence, or entreaty.
d. To give up one's place, as to one that is superior: yielded to the chairperson.
n.
1.
a. An amount yielded or produced; a product.
b. A profit obtained from an investment; a return.
2. The energy released by an explosion, especially by a nuclear explosion, expressed in units of weight of TNT required to produce an equivalent release: The atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima had a yield of 20 kilotons.

[tigertim20]

Buy a new dictionary ...

My pick is in bold ... yours failed to be mentioned.

yield (yēld)
v. yield·ed, yield·ing, yields
v.tr.
1.
a. To give forth by or as if by a natural process, especially by cultivation: a field that yields many bushels of corn.
b. To furnish as return for effort or investment; be productive of: an investment that yields high percentages.
2.
a. To give over possession of, as in deference or defeat; surrender.
b. To give up (an advantage, for example) to another; concede.
v.intr.
1.
a. To give forth a natural product; be productive.
b. To produce a return for effort or investment: bonds that yield well.
2.
a. To give up, as in defeat; surrender or submit.
b. To give way to pressure or force: The door yielded to a gentle push.
c. To give way to argument, persuasion, influence, or entreaty.
d. To give up one's place, as to one that is superior: yielded to the chairperson.
n.
1.
a. An amount yielded or produced; a product.
b. A profit obtained from an investment; a return.
2. The energy released by an explosion, especially by a nuclear explosion, expressed in units of weight of TNT required to produce an equivalent release: The atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima had a yield of 20 kilotons.

your dictionary definitions are fucking pointless, the road code provides it's own definitions for defining what is required.

[FJRider]

your dictionary definitions are fucking pointless, the road code provides it's own definitions for defining what is required.

There is a big difference between "Knowing what is required" ... and ... "Doing what is required" ...

Everybody seems to have their own personal interpretations as to what is required (or convenient) ... at the time.

Too often the attempt to save a few minutes (or seconds) ... can waste a lot more than just time. Those that have been on the receiving end of a "Failing to ... give way/Stop" will know what I mean ...

[FJRider]

If all new signs went up as yields would the lower cost of painting the shorter notice outweigh the trees cut down to explain there is little practical difference?




They could save costs even further ... and just have Stop signs .... ;)

The extra revenue (in fines) gained would be the bonus ... :laugh:

[Big Dog]

There is a big difference between "Knowing what is required" ... and ... "Doing what is required" ...

Everybody seems to have their own personal interpretations as to what is required (or convenient) ... at the time.

Too often the attempt to save a few minutes (or seconds) ... can waste a lot more than just time. Those that have been on the receiving end of a "Failing to ... give way/Stop" will know what I mean ...

Which bolls down to the majority of all road users believe their mode is better than all others and is multiplied by the vast majority thinking they are better drivers than everyone else on the road.

I assume I am not a good rider. I assume that 50% of drivers on the road should not have passed their license. These assumptions help me to accommodate for many things. Including a couple of saves from stop sign / red light runners.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[MVnut]

In my opinion almost all Stop signs are warranted. Stop means Stop....it's pretty fucking simple really........if you don't want to Stop, don't drive !

[swbarnett]

In my opinion almost all Stop signs are warranted. Stop means Stop....it's pretty fucking simple really........if you don't want to Stop, don't drive !
In only an insignificant number of cases is anything less than 5kph necessary to ascertain that it is safe to proceed. Any assertion to the contrary by police is either revenue gathering or a false sense of superiority.

[Tazz]

In only an insignificant number of cases is anything less than 5kph necessary to ascertain that it is safe to proceed. Any assertion to the contrary by police is either revenue gathering or a false sense of superiority.

You're forgetting to account for idiots.

[swbarnett]

You're forgetting to account for idiots.
No, I'm not.

At the vast majority of stop signs it is blatantly obvious whether or not it is safe to proceed without having to be absolutely stationary. Even for most of the idiots.

[Berries]

In my opinion almost all Stop signs are warranted.
Funny, I would say that the majority don't comply with the visibility requirements and they were put in for some other reason. Like the ones at crossroads that were originally give way but opposite a stop sign and the locals were just too thick to know how the rules worked so they dumbed it down to make it easy.


if you don't want to Stop, don't drive !
I ride actually. Which is interesting because the additional height you have on a bike can overcome the visibility constraints that might have caused the intersection to be stop controlled, for instance guardrail to the right of the intersection that you can't see over in a car. So coming to a physical stop in that example does not increase safety for anyone.

[Tazz]

No, I'm not.

At the vast majority of stop signs it is blatantly obvious whether or not it is safe to proceed without having to be absolutely stationary. Even for most of the idiots.

I wouldn't put my life on it. 'Good' drivers even rage out about/struggle to comprehend how they can pass a bunch of traffic only to have them catch up at traffic lights. Fark knows what is going through a 'bad' drivers skull on the road, but I doubt it is much to do with actual driving.

[FJRider]

I wouldn't put my life on it.

In my opinion ... those that don't stop for Stop signs ... are betting their life on it being the right decision.


'Good' drivers even rage out about/struggle to comprehend how they can pass a bunch of traffic only to have them catch up at traffic lights.

On a daily commute I once had between Alexandra and Cromwell (to/from work) ... through the Cromwell gorge ... cars passing me in the early stages (in either direction) were seldom more than 30 seconds ahead after the 33 kilometer journey. The effort they made and risks taken in overtaking numerous vehicles ... for 30 seconds gained.

I wonder what they did with the time they saved ...


Fark knows what is going through a 'bad' drivers skull on the road, but I doubt it is much to do with actual driving.

My guess is ... absolutely nothing whatsoever ...

[FJRider]

Which bolls down to the majority of all road users believe their mode is better than all others and is multiplied by the vast majority thinking they are better drivers than everyone else on the road.

People never make bad and dangerous decisions ... Intentionally ... do they .. ???

The old "I've done it plenty of times before .. with no problems" gets trotted out when it all turns to custard ...


I assume I am not a good rider. I assume that 50% of drivers on the road should not have passed their license. These assumptions help me to accommodate for many things. Including a couple of saves from stop sign / red light runners.

All reports of drivers/riders driving standard improving when a marked patrol vehicle is behind them ... is in direct contrast to that claim.

[Tazz]

In my opinion ... those that don't stop for Stop signs ... are betting their life on it being the right decision.

I was meaning me fanging down the road and relying on them to have the brainpower to double check and not pull out in front/onto me from the intersection.

Otherwise (shock horror) I agree with everything else. I definitely still overtake, but you can't get worked up about it when there is someone even slower that enables everyone to catch up, you'll pop too many veins. It's just part of driving. Same goes with intersections. What's a few more seconds to be sure you're not going to get squished. Shouldn't really be a drama. And if you don't want to stop because you can clearly see nothing is coming at that time of day/night? Big whoop, no need to sing and dance, just double check for cops instead of getting precious and if you get squished stay quiet about it XD

Anyway, back to the speed thing. If it was open limit I'd say as a trade off you'd want stop signs at every intersection in those areas to save yourself from your own or someone elses stupidity. I suppose that would be a big issue for some unfortunately.

[FJRider]

I was meaning me fanging down the road and relying on them to have the brainpower to double check and not pull out in front/onto me from the intersection.

The proverbial thought "I'm in the right so I'll be ok" comes to mind ... the amount of trust you have in other road users to do the "Right thing" is entirely up to each individual rider/driver ... at the time. My personal advice to all is ... doubt you have your rights .. in THEIR mind. You may live longer.


Otherwise (shock horror) I agree with everything else. I definitely still overtake, but you can't get worked up about it when there is someone even slower that enables everyone to catch up, you'll pop too many veins. It's just part of driving. Same goes with intersections. What's a few more seconds to be sure you're not going to get squished. Shouldn't really be a drama. And if you don't want to stop because you can clearly see nothing is coming at that time of day/night? Big whoop, just double check for cops instead of getting precious.

Thank you ... and I'm not worried about them overtaking me ... if it is safely done. 100 meters of clear visibility is seldom available in the Cromwell gorge. The prevalence of sign written work vehicles doing it amuses me (Whats the rush to GET to work) ... and going home ... must be on a promise .. :laugh:


Anyway, back to the speed thing. If it was open limit I'd say as a trade off you'd want stop signs at every intersection in those areas to save yourself from your own or someone else's stupidity. I suppose that would be a big issue for some unfortunately.

Sadly ... there is no law against stupidity.

Open limits would mean ... "If they can they will" ... the stupid included. Be careful what you wish for.

[Berries]

The proverbial thought "I'm in the right so I'll be ok" comes to mind ... the amount of trust you have in other road users to do the "Right thing" is entirely up to each individual rider/driver ... at the time. My personal advice to all is ... doubt you have your rights .. in THEIR mind. You may live longer.
Are you actually Yoda?


100 meters of clear visibility is seldom available in the Cromwell gorge.
A short sighted Yoda?

[swbarnett]

I wouldn't put my life on it. 'Good' drivers even rage out about/struggle to comprehend how they can pass a bunch of traffic only to have them catch up at traffic lights. Fark knows what is going through a 'bad' drivers skull on the road, but I doubt it is much to do with actual driving.
If they make a bad judgement while approaching an intersection at 5kph it's going to make fuck all difference if they had actually stopped. The risk is the same.

[swbarnett]

In my opinion ... those that don't stop for Stop signs ... are betting their life on it being the right decision.
In all practical ways the difference between 5kph and 0kph is insignificant at all but an infinitesimal number of stop signs.

[swbarnett]

there is no law against stupidity.
Thank fuck for that. If there was every last human would be convicted. Stupidity is simply a part of the human condition. It's just a question of how often.


Open limits would mean ... "If they can they will" ... the stupid included. Be careful what you wish for.
You may want to have a look at the article pointed to in the OP

[Dazh]

Thank fuck for that. If there was every last human would be convicted. Stupidity is simply a part of the human condition. It's just a question of how often.

haha very true!

[Scuba_Steve]

Remember boys & girls speed kills, lack thereof!

[swbarnett]

speed kills, lack thereof!
Funny you should say that. Both of my more recent accidents only happened because I was going too slow*.





*One while parked and one where I got rear-ended while crawling over white paint in a corner in a torrential down-pour in the dark.

[HenryDorsetCase]

There are no yield signs in NZ. Only Give WAY.

There are significant differences between them. Yield means to take notice of nearby traffic, Give way means if you see traffic YOU MUST STOP. They have right of way.

Old man rant over.

If your first proposition is true "There are no yield signs in NZ" then your second is incorrect: because if there are no signs it can have no meaning in NZ

[rastuscat]

No, I'm not.

At the vast majority of stop signs it is blatantly obvious whether or not it is safe to proceed without having to be absolutely stationary. Even for most of the idiots.

So why do so many collisions happen at such intersections?

[Berries]

Why do any crashes happen at intersections? Because people don't concentrate and pull out when it is not safe to do so. In an ideal world a stop sign would indicate poor visibility at an intersection so crashes are more likely at those intersections because there is even less chance of someone who is not concentrating seeing oncoming traffic. Absolutely nothing whatsoever with failing to stop at a stop sign though, all to do with failing to give way.

[rastuscat]

Why do any crashes happen at intersections? Because people don't concentrate and pull out when it is not safe to do so. In an ideal world a stop sign would indicate poor visibility at an intersection so crashes are more likely at those intersections because there is even less chance of someone who is not concentrating seeing oncoming traffic. Absolutely nothing whatsoever with failing to stop at a stop sign though, all to do with failing to give way.

Entirely with you on your last sentence.

The idea is that if you stop you give yourself a better chance of making a good decision about when to go.

Trouble is, subconsciously, everyone doesn't stop at stop signs and doesn't die, so we've all learned that it's safe not to stop.

Except for those who have crashed.

[swbarnett]

So why do so many collisions happen at such intersections?
Partly because people drive through them way too fast (I'm only talking about the lack of difference between almost stopped and stopped). More importantly is that people don't see what their eyes are pointing at (assuming they're pointing at the other traffic in the first place), whatever speed they're doing.

If someone doesn't see what's around them at 5kph making them do 0kph is not going to change things.

[rastuscat]

*as they found it also drastically cut profits!

Profits? Do they get to keep the fines? We don't.

[willytheekid]

Profits? Do they get to keep the fines? We don't.

:blink:...possibly mate?, Don't they call a donut a danish over there?...thats proof of them not operating like you guys :laugh:


...hope ya well mate (I tried to wave to ya the other morning...but it certainly was NOT the place to be taking a hand off the bars :laugh: (Pot holes everywhere!)...so I just kinda bounce/nodded in your general direction)

[Berries]

Except for those who have crashed.
Yeah but lets face it, they were muppets who were going to crash anyway, they just needed somewhere for it to happen.

[scumdog]

Yeah but lets face it, they were muppets who were going to crash anyway, they just needed somewhere for it to happen.

Maybe we could have Muppet Crashing Zone signs so muppets know where to crash.:confused:

And the rest of us can steer well clear of those areas!

[cheshirecat]

Maybe we could have Muppet Crashing Zone signs so muppets know where to crash.:confused:

And the rest of us can steer well clear of those areas!

Best idea of the year - scary thing is it could work

[Scuba_Steve]

Maybe we could have Muppet Crashing Zone signs so muppets know where to crash.:confused:

And the rest of us can steer well clear of those areas!

We already have them...

296860296861296862

[FJRider]

Maybe we could have Muppet Crashing Zone signs so muppets know where to crash.:confused:

And the rest of us can steer well clear of those areas!

The muppets crash in areas nobody expects ... they don't even know they're muppets ...

[rastuscat]

http://kraphtyforkaptions.blogspot.co.nz/2010/03/muppets-crash-too.html

[Edbear]

The muppets crash in areas nobody expects ... they don't even know they're muppets ...

Show me someone who knows they are an incompetent driver and I will show you a passenger. ..

[BoristheBiter]

In all practical ways the difference between 5kph and 0kph is insignificant at all but an infinitesimal number of stop signs.

OK so get someone to drive into you at 5kph and then try and get them to hit you at 0kph.

See with one you prefer.

[kiwi cowboy]

Maybe we could have Muppet Crashing Zone signs so muppets know where to crash.:confused:

And the rest of us can steer well clear of those areas!


Yes please and can you make one just outside my wee block of land just north of dunners.;)

I have been thinking how I can get a living off it and a car wrecking yard with a steady supply of vehicles at the front gate would be good:yes::yes::lol:

[FJRider]

Maybe we could have Muppet Crashing Zone signs so muppets know where to crash.:confused:

And the rest of us can steer well clear of those areas!

They DO ... they're called Black Spots ... and signed as such.

[swbarnett]

OK so get someone to drive into you at 5kph and then try and get them to hit you at 0kph.

See with one you prefer.
That is completely out of context and you know it.

[BoristheBiter]

That is completely out of context and you know it.

No it isn't. You said the difference is negligible I'm saying prove it.

If someone is moving and accelerates out of a stop/give way sign they will be further out into the road then if they come to a compete stop and that could be the difference between going around them or over them.

[Big Dog]

Show me someone who knows they are an incompetent driver and I will show you a passenger. ..
Unless you think you are incompetent but less incompetent than most.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[Big Dog]

OK so get someone to drive into you at 5kph and then try and get them to hit you at 0kph.

See with one you prefer.

By definition if at 0kph they are not able to hit you.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[BoristheBiter]

By definition if at 0kph they are not able to hit you.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

That was the point.:niceone:

[MD]

I've read none of this thread but I have to ask. Is there a speed limit? Well my bikes have never heard of this strange restriction.

[scumdog]

I've read none of this thread but I have to ask. Is there a speed limit? Well my bikes have never heard of this strange restriction.

Oh no bike has - but the laws of physics and one or two cops certainly have.:lol:

[swbarnett]

No it isn't. You said the difference is negligible I'm saying prove it.
God you can be thick sometimes. I am saying that an observation made at 5kph is the same (or as close to as makes no odds) as an observation made at 0kph in the same amount of time.


If someone is moving and accelerates out of a stop/give way sign they will be further out into the road then if they come to a compete stop and that could be the difference between going around them or over them.
Quite right. However, totally out of the context of what I said. My whole argument revolves around the need for driver to OBSERVE the other traffic. Now, if you want to argue that those 5kph make a difference given the same observational outcome then I actually agree with you. But this is a different point and irrelevant to the discussion because the purpose of replacing a give way sign with a stop sign is not to slow them down once they make the decision to proceed. It is to make people slow down enough to be sure that it is safe to proceed in the first place. I still maintain that 5kph is slow enough at all but a miniscule number of intersections.

[swbarnett]

OK so get someone to drive into you at 5kph and then try and get them to hit you at 0kph.

See with one you prefer.
Actually I just remembered that I have been hit by someone travelling at 5kph or thereabouts. It may as well not have happened for the damage it did i.e. absolutely none. All they got from me was a slight sneer. It didn't even warrant a shake of the head.

[BoristheBiter]

I still maintain that 5kph is slow enough at all but a miniscule number of intersections.

for some drivers yes, but again it is lowest common denominator and the crap driving I see everyday would tend to disagree.

[BoristheBiter]

Actually I just remembered that I have been hit by someone travelling at 5kph or thereabouts. It may as well not have happened for the damage it did i.e. absolutely none. All they got from me was a slight sneer. It didn't even warrant a shake of the head.

see post 56

[swbarnett]

for some drivers yes, but again it is lowest common denominator and the crap driving I see everyday would tend to disagree.
You know, you may have a point afterall. I just twigged to one circumstance that I see quite often that may put the lie to what I've been thinking*. I have observed drivers that have a very clear view of the intersection long before they get to it that don't even bother to look until they get to the line. You may well be right that, with this behaviour, a complete stop is necessary before these bozos to even start looking. Which, of course, would lead to many intersections that would otherwise be fine with a give way needing a stop for the "lowest common denominator" as you say. Once again it comes down to the fact that it's a damn sight easier to measure speed than one's situational awareness.



*I can be thick sometimes too.

[yevjenko]

I have observed drivers that have a very clear view of the intersection long before they get to it that don't even bother to look until they get to the line.

This.

It amazes me how many people i see doing this. And it staggers me how these people can drive with such a low situational awareness... actually how they can survive in life not just drive


Once again it comes down to the fact that it's a damn sight easier to measure speed than one's situational awareness.

And this is the crux of the matter.

Although you could replace situational awareness with a whole raft of concepts that go to quality of driving but are empirically much harder to measure/police than how fast we are going.




*I can be thick sometimes too.

And this probably needs to be the tagline of everybody on kb ;-)

sent from my phone (so scuze auto correct typos)

[BoristheBiter]

You know, you may have a point afterall. I just twigged to one circumstance that I see quite often that may put the lie to what I've been thinking*. I have observed drivers that have a very clear view of the intersection long before they get to it that don't even bother to look until they get to the line. You may well be right that, with this behaviour, a complete stop is necessary before these bozos to even start looking. Which, of course, would lead to many intersections that would otherwise be fine with a give way needing a stop for the "lowest common denominator" as you say. Once again it comes down to the fact that it's a damn sight easier to measure speed than one's situational awareness.



*I can be thick sometimes too.

:2thumbsup
we have a give way down the road with a big hard shoulder. People have started to pull out regardless of what's coming and use this to speed up. Most don't do this correctly and just pull out into traffic.
I put it in the same category as those that don't look in their mirrors, at all.
You see them everyday and just wait for the "wonder into your lane then wave apologetically as you beep at them"
I have also noticed a lack of speed awareness as people just pull out into traffic unaware that the traffic is moving faster they they can accelerate.

[Kickaha]

I have also noticed a lack of speed awareness as people just pull out into traffic unaware that the traffic is moving faster they they can accelerate.
You see that all the time with people entering motorways and not getting up to speed as they come down the on ramps

[Tazz]

You see that all the time with people entering motorways and not getting up to speed as they come down the on ramps

Or they get up to speed and go to merge only to find a bunch of asshats closing up all the gaps :rolleyes:

[awayatc]

Oh no bike has - but the laws of physics and one or two cops certainly have.:lol:

When it was just one or two cops it wasn't a problem...........

But nowadays the countryside is infected with one eyed morons in blue with all manner of electronics enforcing zero tolerance... under the guise of helping us rather then themselves...

[Dave-]

I can't find the report :(

I love playing spot-the-bullshit with regurgitated un-cited articles like this.

I mean, of course autoexpress is a legitimate publication, and definitely isn't click baiting for the 12 advertisers it has on that page (must look a mess without adblock).