Cunliffe's constituent Liu?

[Maki]

In his letter from 2003 Cunliffe wrote:

"my constituent Donghua Liu"

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1200727-cunliffeliu.html#document/p1


Can anyone explain how someone who is not an NZ resident can be Cunliffe's constituent? To me Liu was not a voter in NZ and could therefore not be his constituent.

Why does it matter whether Liu was his constituent or not? Because Cunliffe uses this to explain his relationship with Liu. If his relationship was not based on Lui being his constituent, then what was it in fact based on? Was it perhaps based on something that Cunliffe would feel embarrased to admit?

[Akzle]

was this the guy who he couldn't communicate with, because "[ I ] don't speak chinese"... but they have million dollar batches next to each other, and somehow whitey managed to renovate old yella's batch... and...and...and.
fucking shoot them all.

[Katman]

Hopefully every vote lost by Labour will be given to the Greens.

[mashman]

Hopefully every vote lost by Labour will be given to the Greens.

The Money Free Party is on the ballot. If people want to protest vote, they should consider voting for the MFP because it may put the boot up labour, nats, greens etc...

[Akzle]

vote akzle

[Katman]

The Money Free Party is on the ballot. If people want to protest vote, they should consider voting for the MFP because it may put the boot up labour, nats, greens etc...

What a waste of a vote.

For my money (see what I done there?) there would be no harm in seeing the Greens elevated to the status of the major opposition party.

[unstuck]

Green.:2thumbsup

[Robert Taylor]

was this the guy who he couldn't communicate with, because "[ I ] don't speak chinese"... but they have million dollar batches next to each other, and somehow whitey managed to renovate old yella's batch... and...and...and.
fucking shoot them all.

Using the white mans bullets? You didnt have those ( or internet ) until the white man turned up.

Shooting Cunliffe I can agree with though.

[mashman]

What a waste of a vote.

For my money (see what I done there?) there would be no harm in seeing the Greens elevated to the status of the major opposition party.

All I saw was how quickly your brain fell out... if you're quick you'll catch it. What are the Greens going to do to turn the country into anything other than it already is? Fair enough, you're a, I like it the way it is type.

[Akzle]

Using the white mans bullets? You didnt have those ( or internet ) until the white man turned up.

Shooting Cunliffe I can agree with though.

sofa king retarded.
The chineses invented guns you ignorant prat.

[Katman]

All I saw was how quickly your brain fell out... if you're quick you'll catch it. What are the Greens going to do to turn the country into anything other than it already is? Fair enough, you're a, I like it the way it is type.

What a load of shit.

I don't like it the way it is.

The Greens may not have all the answers just yet but they certainly deserve their chance to make a change.

[Robert Taylor]

Green.:2thumbsup

Of course, shut down / scare away all the industries that employ people and provide a tax base for the cradle to grave welfare and ''free '' everything that these inbred philistines espouse.

Brilliant economics. Their global warming argument is also full of fallacy, in many areas. But I guess because so many of these idiots smoke dope they havent got control of their faculties anyway

[oldrider]

Green.:2thumbsup

The new red! :kick:

[Katman]

Brilliant economics. Their global warming argument is also full of fallacy, in many areas. But I guess because so many of these idiots smoke dope they havent got control of their faculties anyway

Clearly dope has nothing to do with your lack of faculties.

[Robert Taylor]

sofa king retarded.
The chineses invented guns you ignorant prat.

And Polynesians didnt, which was the main thrust of my argument. That you chose to twist to massage your own ego.

Im sure you are a nice enough guy face to face, but your keyboard demeanour is quite offensive

[Robert Taylor]

Clearly dope has nothing to do with your lack of faculties.

Im not dopey enough ( yet ) to lose my faculties and vote for such a party. NO, NO, NO in the immortal words of Maggie

[Katman]

Im not dopey enough ( yet ) to lose my faculties and vote for such a party. NO, NO, NO in the immortal words of Maggie

Robert, I will bow to you in all things suspensional, but politically you are a veritable fossil.

[Bassmatt]

Using the white mans bullets? You didnt have those ( or internet ) until the white man turned up.



Of course, shut down / scare away all the industries that employ people and provide a tax base for the cradle to grave welfare and ''free '' everything that these inbred philistines espouse.

Brilliant economics. Their global warming argument is also full of fallacy, in many areas. But I guess because so many of these idiots smoke dope they havent got control of their faculties anyway


And Polynesians didnt, which was the main thrust of my argument. That you chose to twist to massage your own ego.


You're a fucking dinosaur, you sound like my father, it's like you stopped thinking in 1968.

[Maki]

Ok ok, carry on folks, but could someone please indulge me?

Does a Chinese person, living in China, without NZ residency, count as a New Zealand politicians constituent or not?

[Akzle]

You're a fucking dinosaur, you sound like my father, it's like you stopped thinking in 1968.

which is the main thrust of my argument.
It was the krauts that invented cars and the frogs motorbikes, so you, whitey, had better forsake those devices, your white forbears didnt invent em.
As said (im repeating myself for you bob, NOW you can feel special) its a disingenious argument.

[Akzle]

Im sure you are a nice enough guy face to face, but your keyboard demeanour is quite offensive

dont be so sure. Shock and offence is a good way to get old whitey thinking, once the offense and indignation wears through.

I am as a still pond. Go quietly and i will reflect you, as a mirror. Make a splash, the image is still you, but fragmented, distorted, and youre likely to get your shoes wet.

[Robert Taylor]

dont be so sure. Shock and offence is a good way to get old whitey thinking, once the offense and indignation wears through.

I am as a still pond. Go quietly and i will reflect you, as a mirror. Make a splash, the image is still you, but fragmented, distorted, and youre likely to get your shoes wet.

And I see that you are now out of bed and that they are making it for you.

I bet Cunliffe wished that he had stayed in bed so that he doesnt have to suffer indignation from political fossils like myself

[gjm]

Ok ok, carry on folks, but could someone please indulge me?

Does a Chinese person, living in China, without NZ residency, count as a New Zealand politicians constituent or not?

If a non-resident owns a property within the constituency, and lives there for at least part of the year, then probably.

Does anyone find it interesting that the National party was able to dredge up an 11-year-old letter just after John Key has been called to face his charges...? Tit-for-tat?

[willytheekid]

arguing over politicains and there "allegiances" :nya:

...there all the same!

Vote for who ever you want, ultimately...they will ALL screw you over to suit there own means & hidden agenda's


And yet everyday, these "maggots" stand on TV, openly admitting to repeat fraud, repeat theft from the people of NZ, and deception & acts of personal greed of the highest degrees!...and the police do NOTHING!...and you all continue to argue the merrits of the next maggot in line
...and your actually expecting change from your pathetic choice of vote!...well where is the option for a vote of no confidence in the entire system & current parties?...were can I vote for the police to get off there arse's and investigate there blatant white collar crime and theft & sale's of NZ's resources?....where is this "democracy" you speak of again??


The system is broken and riff with corruption and driven by personal greed!....THAT is the only clear thing I see in NZ "politics" that requires a vote for change

....maggots!, the lot of them!!

[Akzle]

arguing over politicains and there "allegiances" :nya:

...there all the same!

Vote for who ever you want, ultimately...they will ALL screw you over to suit there own means & hidden agenda's


And yet everyday, these "maggots" stand on TV, openly admitting to repeat fraud, repeat theft from the people of NZ, and deception & acts of personal greed of the highest degrees!...and the police do NOTHING!...and you all continue to argue the merrits of the next maggot in line
...and your actually expecting change from your pathetic choice of vote!...well where is the option for a vote of no confidence in the entire system & current parties?...were can I vote for the police to get off there arse's and investigate there blatant white collar crime and theft & sale's of NZ's resources?....where is this "democracy" you speak of again??


The system is broken and riff with corruption and driven by personal greed!....THAT is the only clear thing I see in NZ "politics" that requires a vote for change

....maggots!, the lot of them!!

+1

...bajillion.

[mashman]

What a load of shit.

I don't like it the way it is.

The Greens may not have all the answers just yet but they certainly deserve their chance to make a change.

Fair enough... however I don't see the Greens doing anything other than much of the same but with an environmental bent. Whilst that in itself is a worthy goal, going green is a tiny problem in the grand scale of things.

[mashman]

Of course, shut down / scare away all the industries that employ people and provide a tax base for the cradle to grave welfare and ''free '' everything that these inbred philistines espouse.

Brilliant economics. Their global warming argument is also full of fallacy, in many areas. But I guess because so many of these idiots smoke dope they havent got control of their faculties anyway

You mean like the Swiss... after all they're contemplating implementing a UBI? UBI is the way of the future :yes:... I would say it's almost an inevitability.

[Kiwi Graham]

Maybe because I'm getting older and more cynical but this latest period of politics has just proved to me that it doesn't matter what bloody party you represent or belong to there all bloody dodgy as! Have you seen the school boy crap that goes on in parliment ffs these idiots are meant to be running a country, I'm not singling any one of them out, they are all the fucking same!

They all lie, cheat and feather their own nest and when the writing is on the wall sort themselves out a nice little earner on a board somewhere and disappear.

I dont trust any of them. When it comes to voting for who to run the country for the next term it will be a case of which dodgy fuckwit is more likley to avoid being found out as corrupt. of course we wont know this until after the fact and we're stuck with them.

I'm well over the bolocks National has been dishing out (I work for a DHB) I'm over the Labour muppets and their new leader every year model, dont get me started on DOT Mana and the Greens,First and ACT god help us.....

Who out there is worth voting for????

[mashman]

The Truth

Who out there is worth voting for????

The Money Free Party is worth voting for :D... to the point where my first ever vote will be cast for them. Less politics, more action ;)

[Swoop]

and when the writing is on the wall sort themselves out a nice little earner on a board somewhere and disappear.

I'm concerned that the stupid bitch that fucked us over, for 9 yrs, is attempting to get even more power at the UN.
Hopefully they see sense and kick the dopey bint off to some unheard of shit-hole in deepest Africa that needs a UN representative!





Goodness help us if the Lunatic Fringe greenies get more power to instigate their hair-brained schemes. Stick to composting, recycling and dope policies and they are mainly harmless.

[Ulsterkiwi]

which is the main thrust of my argument.
It was the krauts that invented cars and the frogs motorbikes, so you, whitey, had better forsake those devices, your white forbears didnt invent em.
As said (im repeating myself for you bob, NOW you can feel special) its a disingenious argument.

I dont actually subscribe to the 'if you didnt invent it you cant use it' line of thinking, thats a load of crap.
Technically however, the 'krauts' and 'frogs' belong to the caucasian group of peoples, so that would be what is colloquially known as 'whitey'.
just sayin.....

[gjm]

You mean like the Swiss... after all they're contemplating implementing a UBI? UBI is the way of the future :yes:... I would say it's almost an inevitability.

When surveyed (scale/scope/number fo respondents unknown), 80% of Americans said they would be in favour of UBI.

Of course they would. 80% of Americans would probably see an improvement in income. The same is quite possibly true of a vast number of countries.

I'm not sure if NZ has got something very, very wrong. There is a huge drive towards globalisation, something which will massively benefit a very few, and give the majority of people a greater chance to acquire things they don't want and can't afford. Does NZ genuinely need global trade, at least on the vast scale being proposed and currently implemented?

[Akzle]

Who out there is worth voting for????


vote akzle

. .

[Akzle]

I dont actually subscribe to the 'if you didnt invent it you cant use it' line of thinking, thats a load of crap.
Technically however, the 'krauts' and 'frogs' belong to the caucasian group of peoples, so that would be what is colloquially known as 'whitey'.
just sayin.....

and technically, you're all just melanin deficient africans. just sayin'...

[Ulsterkiwi]

and technically, you're all just melanin deficient africans. just sayin'...

Working from your presumed position that all human life stems from the middle of the present African continent, do you exclude yourself from that sweeping generalisation?

[dinosaur]

In his letter from 2003 Cunliffe wrote:

"my constituent Donghua Liu"

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1200727-cunliffeliu.html#document/p1


Can anyone explain how someone who is not an NZ resident can be Cunliffe's constituent? To me Liu was not a voter in NZ and could therefore not be his constituent.

Why does it matter whether Liu was his constituent or not? Because Cunliffe uses this to explain his relationship with Liu. If his relationship was not based on Lui being his constituent, then what was it in fact based on? Was it perhaps based on something that Cunliffe would feel embarrased to admit?

I agree with you completely

and I know for a fact a wealthy man like Liu wouldn't be calling into the local MPs office asking for an electorate secretary to write a letter to see where his application is! Thats what Cunliff is saying! ....... Men like Liu don't go to places like that - they summon our politicians to their mansions, ply them with trips on their boat or private jet, feed them well and donate money here there and everywhere, tell them how much money and jobs they can bring to NZ and then ask if they could help make it happen

This letter from Cunliff is proof he was bought as well. Does anyone seriously think that this billionaire who has relationships with the Primeminster and other MPs would bother calling the local office and dealing with a secretary/admin person - I doubt it
And remember 10 years ago when this letter was written - Labour were in power and Cunliff was an MP (just like National Party MP Maurice Williamson)
Ok Cunliff wasn't dumb enough to interferer with due process - however his claims of never meeting him, not having anything to do with him, seem rather unbelievable

The fact Cunliffe is claiming one of his staff members wrote a letter of which Cunliff only signed; proves to me hes a lair and there's a shit load more to the story

[Ocean1]

Does NZ genuinely need global trade, at least on the vast scale being proposed and currently implemented?

Depends. Is your helmet made in NZ? did you even buy it from a local shop? Are you happy to do without all of your shit not made in NZ?

Global trade isn't a bad thing. Global terms of trade are what causes global inequity.

[Katman]

Have you seen the school boy crap that goes on in parliment ffs these idiots are meant to be running a country, I'm not singling any one of them out, they are all the fucking same!


And in that respect, can you recall seeing any of the Green party MPs carrying on like school kids while in parliament?

I can't.

[Ulsterkiwi]

And in that respect, can you recall seeing any of the Green party MPs carrying on like school kids while in parliament?

I can't.

Russell Norman has been accused of grandstanding and point scoring from time to time. That is kind of part of the political system though isnt it?

I think it would be a hugely positive thing if the greens got to be part of the next government. Many of their aspirations and policies are admirable, desirable even. It would be interesting to see if they can make those policies reality.

[Akzle]

...I know for a fact...
Men like Liu don't go to places like that ...
This letter from Cunliff is proof he was bought...
I doubt it...
his claims ...
seem...

The fact Cunliffe is claiming one of his staff members wrote a letter of which Cunliff only signed; proves to me hes a lair ...

that's a whole lot of supposition on which you base your strong belief.
but pray, what facts do you know? i'm sure teh jewdiciary would be delighted to hear them.

[Katman]

Russell Norman has been accused of grandstanding and point scoring from time to time. That is kind of part of the political system though isnt it?


Not quite the school kid antics I was referring to though.

As I've said before, the Green party can no longer be looked upon as simply sandal wearing, dope smoking hippies.

[Ocean1]

I think it would be a hugely positive thing if the greens got to be part of the next government. Many of their aspirations and policies are admirable, desirable even.

I think they wouldn't make three years, the economy would tank in 2.

You're right about their aspirations. If you can reduce them to minimising irrepairable damage to the planet. But their policies are nothing like representing the tools required to do that job. Neo Luddism in action.

[Ulsterkiwi]

Not quite the school kid antics I was referring to though.

As I've said before, the Green party can no longer be looked upon as simply sandal wearing, dope smoking hippies.

I would agree with you on both points. I like their pragmatism in comparison to the green sector in some other jurisdictions

[Ulsterkiwi]

I think they wouldn't make the tree years, the economy would tank in 2.

You're right about their aspirations. If you can reduce them to minimising irrepairable damage to the planet's concerned. But their policies are nothing like representing the tools required to do that job. Neo Luddism in action.

There are question marks about the transition from policy to reality for sure, hence my use of the word 'if'. That said, its not like the alternatives have watertight solutions either. Lets say they are in a coalition government which is the most likely way they get to govern. That means they cannot implement their policies wholesale but they are given the opportunity to try some. I am willing to give that my vote.

[mashman]

When surveyed (scale/scope/number fo respondents unknown), 80% of Americans said they would be in favour of UBI.

Of course they would. 80% of Americans would probably see an improvement in income. The same is quite possibly true of a vast number of countries.

I'm not sure if NZ has got something very, very wrong. There is a huge drive towards globalisation, something which will massively benefit a very few, and give the majority of people a greater chance to acquire things they don't want and can't afford. Does NZ genuinely need global trade, at least on the vast scale being proposed and currently implemented?

WTF! I'd been keen to see a link to the survey iffen ye have one?

lol... unfortunately too true.

I'll plump for no as an answer to your question... whilst I think globalisation is where we will end up and really need to be in so many ways, I'd say you're bang on in regards to the beneficiaries of such policy.

[MisterD]

Does anyone find it interesting that the National party was able to dredge up an 11-year-old letter just after John Key has been called to face his charges...? Tit-for-tat?

It doesn't even require the low intelligence of the average "journalist" to think "hang on, this bloke got his residency when Labour was in office, why don't we do an OIA on correspondence from MP's to immigration."

[gjm]

WTF! I'd been keen to see a link to the survey iffen ye have one?
I had to dig. That's the problem with anecdotal references! But it does exist. However, it's quite old so the relevance may be questionable. Regardless:
"The scope of the public support for guaranteed annual income is not clear.

A 1965 Gallup poll — conducted before the concept had widespread visibility — showed only 19 percent of respondents favoring the proposition that “instead of relief and welfare payments, the government should guarantee every family a minimum annual income.”

The month after President Nixon announced the Family Assistance Plan in September 1969, however, 51 percent of respondents to a Harris poll for Life Magazine favored the proposal for a “federally guaranteed minimum level of income, with a bottom of $3,000 [2013: $18,978] a year for a family of four.”

That same month, Harris also asked specifically about the Nixon Family Assistance Plan (with the $1,600/year floor for a family of four): 79 percent of respondents favored it."



lol... unfortunately too true.

I'll plump for no as an answer to your question... whilst I think globalisation is where we will end up and really need to be in so many ways, I'd say you're bang on in regards to the beneficiaries of such policy.
The question I was asked about bash hats is a fair one, but in the grand scheme of things, it's not going to be something national governmental policy will pay any attention to. If Kite-marked/ANSI-approved helmets were unavailable from overseas, would some sort of manufacturing/production process be created or evolve in NZ? Probably.
This is one example. There will likely be others that will not be so easily resolved.

NZ is selling the most important things people need to live [here] to customers overseas - land, resources, food. The 'clients' will only ever work to drive the price down. Imports, conversely, will always be offered at increasing cost. (This obviously works both ways.)

In 2012, 27 percent of all goods imported were primary products and 72 percent were manufactured goods. Petroleum and products were (as has long been the case) New Zealand's highest-value import, accounting for 18 percent of all goods imported.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y261/gjm123/imports_zpsf5f79233.jpg

If a way to replace (just) petroleum-based imports could be found, imagine the position NZ would be in. I sincerely doubt that anything approaching a comparable quality of life could be retained should imports of many things cease, and consumerism (the best friend of any government) ensures there is a desire (if not a need) for imported products.

But are imports needed at the growing level we currently see? How long before we see a net deficit?

It has long been said that NZ is one of the best places in the world to live. Is it still? Will it be in the future?
It certainly could be. And I hope so.

[Swoop]

If a way to replace (just) petroleum-based imports could be found, imagine the position NZ would be in.
Much like Venezuela, they look after their internal need first, then export any surplus.
In NZ? The Greenatics prevent/hinder exploration in the first place, and big business dealings get overseas countries to take over anything that is discovered.

[oldrider]

It doesn't even require the low intelligence of the average "journalist" to think "hang on, this bloke got his residency when Labour was in office, why don't we do an OIA on correspondence from MP's to immigration."

And why not he is a Dick and has opened himself up to exposure with his holier than thou aproach to the leadership game! :shifty::corn:

[Robbo]

And why not he is a Dick and has opened himself up to exposure with his holier than thou aproach to the leadership game! :shifty::corn:

Very interesting and it looks like his fat gay mate might have had a helping hand in setting old Cuntlips up on a road to self distruction.


http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/06/grant-robertson-know-cunliffes-letter/


Robertstwat is obviously still bitter at missing out on the party leadership to Cuntlips and is out for revenge.

[Ocean1]

The scope of the public support for guaranteed annual income is not clear.

But the arithmetic is perfectly clear. When there's guaranteed minimum productivity then a guaranteed minimum income will be possible.

And not until.

[Akzle]

But the arithmetic is perfectly clear. When there's guaranteed minimum productivity then a guaranteed minimum income will be possible.

And not until.

i think keeping inflation down is fairly productive. Youd certainly piss and moan if/when it happens.

Im off to measure some trees.

[Robbo]

i think keeping inflation down is fairly productive. Youd certainly piss and moan if/when it happens.

Im off to measure some trees.

Geeze, Akzle, Just saw you heading in here with your tape measure.
Those are some trees you have there. :2thumbsup:2thumbsup

[Robert Taylor]

arguing over politicains and there "allegiances" :nya:

...there all the same!

Vote for who ever you want, ultimately...they will ALL screw you over to suit there own means & hidden agenda's


And yet everyday, these "maggots" stand on TV, openly admitting to repeat fraud, repeat theft from the people of NZ, and deception & acts of personal greed of the highest degrees!...and the police do NOTHING!...and you all continue to argue the merrits of the next maggot in line
...and your actually expecting change from your pathetic choice of vote!...well where is the option for a vote of no confidence in the entire system & current parties?...were can I vote for the police to get off there arse's and investigate there blatant white collar crime and theft & sale's of NZ's resources?....where is this "democracy" you speak of again??


The system is broken and riff with corruption and driven by personal greed!....THAT is the only clear thing I see in NZ "politics" that requires a vote for change

....maggots!, the lot of them!!

Agreed but maggots dont have an exclusive on politics.

[Robert Taylor]

I'm concerned that the stupid bitch that fucked us over, for 9 yrs, is attempting to get even more power at the UN.
Hopefully they see sense and kick the dopey bint off to some unheard of shit-hole in deepest Africa that needs a UN representative!





Goodness help us if the Lunatic Fringe greenies get more power to instigate their hair-brained schemes. Stick to composting, recycling and dope policies and they are mainly harmless.

Agreed, everything should be done to stop IT attaining that position

[Robert Taylor]

Depends. Is your helmet made in NZ? did you even buy it from a local shop? Are you happy to do without all of your shit not made in NZ?

Global trade isn't a bad thing. Global terms of trade are what causes global inequity.

100% correct, especially your point about global trade inequity

[mashman]

I had to dig. That's the problem with anecdotal references! But it does exist. However, it's quite old so the relevance may be questionable. Regardless:
"The scope of the public support for guaranteed annual income is not clear.

A 1965 Gallup poll — conducted before the concept had widespread visibility — showed only 19 percent of respondents favoring the proposition that “instead of relief and welfare payments, the government should guarantee every family a minimum annual income.”

The month after President Nixon announced the Family Assistance Plan in September 1969, however, 51 percent of respondents to a Harris poll for Life Magazine favored the proposal for a “federally guaranteed minimum level of income, with a bottom of $3,000 [2013: $18,978] a year for a family of four.”

That same month, Harris also asked specifically about the Nixon Family Assistance Plan (with the $1,600/year floor for a family of four): 79 percent of respondents favored it."

Sounds like a good backup plan should the economy look like it's going tits. Wonder what the threshold is lol.
On a lighter note, if a UBI was going to be put in place (kind of it WFF?), the staunch "you shouldn't get anything for nothing" crowd will not only pitch a fit, but will have nothing to defend their position with anymore. I lol at the prospect :wari:



The question I was asked about bash hats is a fair one, but in the grand scheme of things, it's not going to be something national governmental policy will pay any attention to. If Kite-marked/ANSI-approved helmets were unavailable from overseas, would some sort of manufacturing/production process be created or evolve in NZ? Probably.
This is one example. There will likely be others that will not be so easily resolved.

NZ is selling the most important things people need to live [here] to customers overseas - land, resources, food. The 'clients' will only ever work to drive the price down. Imports, conversely, will always be offered at increasing cost. (This obviously works both ways.)

In 2012, 27 percent of all goods imported were primary products and 72 percent were manufactured goods. Petroleum and products were (as has long been the case) New Zealand's highest-value import, accounting for 18 percent of all goods imported.

If a way to replace (just) petroleum-based imports could be found, imagine the position NZ would be in. I sincerely doubt that anything approaching a comparable quality of life could be retained should imports of many things cease, and consumerism (the best friend of any government) ensures there is a desire (if not a need) for imported products.

But are imports needed at the growing level we currently see? How long before we see a net deficit?

It has long been said that NZ is one of the best places in the world to live. Is it still? Will it be in the future?
It certainly could be. And I hope so.

Fur shur... but only because finance is involved :laugh:

We've all got something and we all need something... not really surprising that we sell stuff. However, ahem, If money were of no import we could mebees pop into a shop, scan your head and have a custom fitted helmet appear an hour or two later. It'd also limit the need to export or import needless crap in plastic boxes to entertain people. Less plastic, more fuel ;). I don't really class it as working, so much as crawling along whilst we await the next generation of hair products. I wish them all luck with the great balancing act of import export, although no one seems to have had much luck so far, heh.

Peeps love stuff eh... go figure. I guess it depends on what you consider to be quality of life dunnit? Weaning off petroleum based stuff was never really going to be done quickly (potentially 50+ years?) though was it... and it's expensive to develop replacements that have no ROFI. Rock and hard place. Demand but no supply.

Dunno about the levels... all I know is that they're subject to fluctuasians. Up some years, down others balance balance balance. I guess as growth is the mantra then we need to keep on buying, raising prices, tackling the inflation/interest rate quandry, "If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it." (Reagan, but probably spoken by Maggie), picking the best leader etc... just to keep the lights on.

Agreed... it is one of the best place in the world to live. No, it won't last without 1 small change, snigger.

[unstuck]

Geeze, Akzle, Just saw you heading in here with your tape measure.
Those are some trees you have there. :2thumbsup:2thumbsup

Looks like hemp, good for headaches. Giving you a headache that is.;)

[Akzle]

Looks like hemp, good for headaches. Giving you a headache that is.;)

also good for rope, biodiesel, tshirts and shoes. Acre for acre 5x more economical than corn or cotton.
Of course, any cannabis strain has similar properties, so may as well get some rongoa as well.

[unstuck]

also good for rope, biodiesel, tshirts and shoes. Acre for acre 5x more economical than corn or cotton.
Of course, any cannabis strain has similar properties, so may as well get some rongoa as well.

Don't forget the tensile strength.:2thumbsup

[Akzle]

Don't forget the tensile strength.:2thumbsup

like when i said rope?

[dinosaur]

that's a whole lot of supposition on which you base your strong belief.
but pray, what facts do you know? i'm sure teh jewdiciary would be delighted to hear them.

It's fact, and stated by Cunliff himself: one of his staff members wrote the letter, he just signed it. Also stated he never met Liu ......?

Pretty good supposition though, you really think Mr Liu would be dealing with the staff and not the man himself????? Get real

You must be a hard out Cunliff supporter to sallow that BS

[Ocean1]

i think keeping inflation down is fairly productive. Youd certainly piss and moan if/when it happens.

Inflation is a minor pain in the arse, but compared to production it's completely irrelevant.

It’s a bit like complaining because a bag of chips had one fewer chips last year when the chip factory’s burning to the ground. Anything anyone ever hopes to achieve for themselves and their country depends absolutely and solely on the total goods and services produced in that country.

So before you even begin to argue about what you plan to spend the surplus on best you make godamned sure there’ll be one.

[mashman]

Useless wank.

So before you even begin to argue about what you plan to spend the surplus on best you make godamned sure there’ll be one.

Of course there'll be one, the govt have borrowed enough to keep us in surplus for a decade or so.

[oldrider]

Of course there'll be one, the govt have borrowed enough to keep us in surplus for a decade or so.

The strange point is why doesn't our government borrow their money to boost the economy from our own reserve bank at "appropriate" cost? :scratch:

[mashman]

The strange point is why doesn't our government borrow their money to boost the economy from our own reserve bank at "appropriate" cost? :scratch:

Prolly coz that'd be QE and we'd all die coz everyone knows that QE means the death of the economy... or so I've been told.

[scrivy]

The strange point is why doesn't our government borrow their money to boost the economy from our own reserve bank at "appropriate" cost? :scratch:

Why not just put it on 'tick' with their bankers at Westpac..... afterall, it's owned by GE... those guys in the US that Key is making himself chums with.....

[Akzle]

It's fact, and stated by Cunliff himself: one of his staff members wrote the letter, he just signed it. Also stated he never met Liu ......?

Pretty good supposition though, you really think Mr Liu would be dealing with the staff and not the man himself????? Get real

You must be a hard out Cunliff supporter to sallow that BS

honey, i havent swallowed anything. Except five bucks and a bag of chips.
Im expecting shit to change.
(:eek: how does he do it??)

you said him signing the letter was all the proof you needed....
Fuckit, i cant be bothered, youre clearly a moron.

[Akzle]

Anything anyone ever hopes to achieve for themselves and their country depends absolutely and solely on the total goods and services produced in that country.


and herein lies the problem.
Not that i accept it as fact. But that its even a belief, is a problem.

[Crasherfromwayback]

How can the Greens be taken seriously when they oppose things like this?

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/government-allow-harvesting-cyclone-hit-native-trees-6008602

[Katman]

How can the Greens be taken seriously when they oppose things like this?

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/government-allow-harvesting-cyclone-hit-native-trees-6008602

Sorry Pete, I couldn't see anything in that article about the Greens opposing the move.

[Voltaire]

How can the Greens be taken seriously when they oppose things like this?

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/government-allow-harvesting-cyclone-hit-native-trees-6008602

MMP has certainly given more choice of clowns you would not want running a BBQ let alone a country.:lol:

Looking at Campbell live Mr Liu does not look like he owns much property in Davids Electorate.

[Ulsterkiwi]

How can the Greens be taken seriously when they oppose things like this?

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/government-allow-harvesting-cyclone-hit-native-trees-6008602

Seems a sensible thing to do. The article does not mention directly the Green party opposition.

There is apparently a track record of revenue from harvested native timber not staying in the country, perhaps that is the root of Green Party opposition?

[Crasherfromwayback]

Sorry Pete, I couldn't see anything in that article about the Greens opposing the move.

My bad. Should've mentioned where I pulled the article from Steve. As much as I can't stand Michael Laws, it's from his FB page. And as much of a twat as he is, I have no doubt he's done his homework.

[Katman]

My bad. Should've mentioned where I pulled the article from Steve. As much as I can't stand Michael Laws, it's from his FB page. And as much of a twat as he is, I have no doubt he's done his homework.

I've just had a quick look at his page and couldn't find any reference to the article.

If the Greens are opposed to the logging of wind fallen native timber I'd be interested in finding out the reasoning for it.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Michael Laws

1 hr · Timaru ·
.

And the Greens oppose this! Madness!
Can I say this to David Cunliffe: even after you've got your own act together, what scares off Kiwis voting Labour this year is your political mates ... the Greens, Harawira & the Internet Party. We don't take ACT seriously because they're gone. The Greens & Harawira aren't.









Government to allow harvesting of cyclone hit native trees


Loggers are to be allowed take out thousands of native trees blown over in April's...


TVNZ
.

[unstuck]

like when i said rope?

I was talking about when it is turned into building products. :2thumbsup

[unstuck]

If the Greens are opposed to the logging of wind fallen native timber I'd be interested in finding out the reasoning for it.

As would I. Unless the only access to said windfalls is across fragile ecological areas or similar, I could see no other reason to stop it.:scratch:

[Crasherfromwayback]

I've just had a quick look at his page and couldn't find any reference to the article.

If the Greens are opposed to the logging of wind fallen native timber I'd be interested in finding out the reasoning for it.

It's at the top of his page now Steve...

https://www.facebook.com/lawsmichael?fref=nf

[unstuck]

It's at the top of his page now Steve...

https://www.facebook.com/lawsmichael?fref=nf

Still can't see where the greens are opposing it Pete.:scratch:

[Crasherfromwayback]

Still can't see where the greens are opposing it Pete.:scratch:

Check post # 74

[unstuck]

I would hope he has done his homework, shame he never provided a link to where he got that information from though. :2thumbsup

[Crasherfromwayback]

I would hope he has done his homework, shame he never provided a link to where he got that information from though. :2thumbsup

Yeah he's many things...but stupid ain't one of them I don't think.

[unstuck]

Yeah he's many things...but stupid ain't one of them I don't think.

Doubt that he is, I would be interested to see the information for myself though. If they are opposing for a reason, other than another party has approved of it, I would like to Know what. It sure does sound like madness. :wacko:

[MisterD]

Still can't see where the greens are opposing it Pete.:scratch:

Last line of this: http://www.stuff.co.nz/nelson-mail/news/10181799/Windblown-timber-is-a-windfall

[Robert Taylor]

Don't forget the tensile strength.:2thumbsup

And how many brains it has destroyed. Nasty side effects include a propensity for voting Labour or Greens or other economics insensible left wing parties

[Robert Taylor]

It's fact, and stated by Cunliff himself: one of his staff members wrote the letter, he just signed it. Also stated he never met Liu ......?

Pretty good supposition though, you really think Mr Liu would be dealing with the staff and not the man himself????? Get real

You must be a hard out Cunliff supporter to sallow that BS

David Cunnesia, attended the same schooling in the virtues of selective amnesia as John Banks.

[Robert Taylor]

MMP has certainly given more choice of clowns you would not want running a BBQ let alone a country.:lol:

Looking at Campbell live Mr Liu does not look like he owns much property in Davids Electorate.

In 1968 ( a year that I have been condemned for being in ) we didnt have MMP. One of that years many virtues.

[buggerit]

David Cunnesia, attended the same schooling in the virtues of selective amnesia as John Banks.

Dux, John Key:lol:

[oldrider]

Still can't see where the greens are opposing it Pete.:scratch:

Any current TV news will do ... bloody luddites FFS! :wacko:

[Ocean1]

Not that i accept it as fact. But that its even a belief, is a problem.

Yeah, 'cause producing fuck all is always a winner. :third:

And yeah, that's a problem for anyone wanting anything at all from the "productive sector". But they don't count worth fuckall.

[Ocean1]

If the Greens are opposed to the logging of wind fallen native timber I'd be interested in finding out the reasoning for it.

Well that makes one of us.

[unstuck]

Last line of this: http://www.stuff.co.nz/nelson-mail/news/10181799/Windblown-timber-is-a-windfall

Cheers. :2thumbsup Still do not understand the WHY though. And that Laws fella is right in calling it madness, unless there is a valid reason for doing so.:wacko:

[unstuck]

And how many brains it has destroyed. Nasty side effects include a propensity for voting Labour or Greens or other economics insensible left wing parties

Think you are getting your HEMP and CANNABIS mixed up. Lay off the booze aye, that shit will fuck you up more than weed.;)

[unstuck]

Any current TV news will do ... bloody luddites FFS! :wacko:

Do not watch the news or read newspapers. I gets all me news from the interweb, cos it's truer.;)

[Swoop]

How can the Greens be taken seriously when they oppose things like this?

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/government-allow-harvesting-cyclone-hit-native-trees-6008602
Yup, madness when Mother Nature has decided to knock the trees down.

Sorry Pete, I couldn't see anything in that article about the Greens opposing the move.
All over tonight's news. Some "Eugeine" bird trying to fuck things up by letting trees rot.
Create jobs? - No!
Enhance the west coast economy? - No!
Myopic thinking? - Yes!

[Ocean1]

Cheers. :2thumbsup Still do not understand the WHY though. And that Laws fella is right in calling it madness, unless there is a valid reason for doing so.:wacko:

I've heard "reasons" from several representatives of the colour green. Boiled down to "because".

Basically, they oppose logging companies, and any opportunity for the loggers is anathema to anyone who sees themselves opposed to logging.

Other than that, I see nothing logical, or even coherent. Again. Which is why I find them hard to take seriously.

Edit: one of my mate's little bro made a godamn fortune tramping minimal handtools into dense bush to recover, (legally) totara etc, airlifted it out. Spent 4-5 months in the bush at a time. Still does it, just a little slower than he used to.

[mashman]

And how many brains it has destroyed. Nasty side effects include a propensity for voting Labour or Greens or other economics insensible left wing parties

Unbunch yer panties, there's much worse in the bushes.

[unstuck]

I've heard "reasons" from several representatives of the colour green. Boiled down to "because".

Basically, they oppose logging companies, and any opportunity for the loggers is anathema to anyone who sees themselves opposed to logging.

Other than that, I see nothing logical, or even coherent. Again. Which is why I find them hard to take seriously.

Edit: one of my mate's little bro made a godamn fortune tramping minimal handtools into dense bush to recover, (legally) totara etc, airlifted it out. Spent 4-5 months in the bush at a time. Still does it, just a little slower than he used to.

Thats the bit I do not get, just seems so silly to let all that timber rot when it could be boosting the economy, especially the coasts. :brick::brick:

[Katman]

Doesn't make any sense to me but hey, not many of us could say we agree with every decision our preferred party espouses.

[oldrider]

Doesn't make any sense to me but hey, not many of us could say we agree with every decision our preferred party espouses.

Green policy doesn't make any sense --- period! :rolleyes:

[unstuck]

Green policy doesn't make any sense --- period! :rolleyes:

I dont think there is any party policy that makes complete sense. They all seem to be tarred with the same brush, but for me personally, the greens I feel easier to tolerate to a certain degree.:2thumbsup

[Katman]

A suspicious mind might be forgiven for wondering if the contract for logging all of this native timber might go to a company belonging to a certain Chinaman married to our Justice Minister - who also just happens to have an estimated $50 million worth of swamp Kauri ready to send off to China.

[Akzle]

And how many brains it has destroyed. Nasty side effects include a propensity for voting Labour or Greens or other economics insensible left wing parties

ignorant.
.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Yup, madness when Mother Nature has decided to knock the trees down.

All over tonight's news. Some "Eugeine" bird trying to fuck things up by letting trees rot.
Create jobs? - No!
Enhance the west coast economy? - No!
Myopic thinking? - Yes!

Aye.


A suspicious mind might be forgiven for wondering if the contract for logging all of this native timber might go to a company belonging to a certain Chinaman married to our Justice Minister - who also just happens to have an estimated $50 million worth of swamp Kauri ready to send off to China.

IF that was the reason then sure. But we still need to take that shit and sell it.

[unstuck]

Aye.



But we still need to take that shit and sell it.

Yep, 100%. It is a valuable natural resource. And helilogging is not new to the coast at all, for the more sensitive areas.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Yep, 100%. It is a valuable natural resource. And helilogging is not new to the coast at all, for the more sensitive areas.

CRash and burn. Like this...

http://digg.com/video/gopro-longest-jump-story?utm_source=digg&utm_medium=facebook

[Ulsterkiwi]

A suspicious mind might be forgiven for wondering if the contract for logging all of this native timber might go to a company belonging to a certain Chinaman married to our Justice Minister - who also just happens to have an estimated $50 million worth of swamp Kauri ready to send off to China.

may well be the case. Something I learned recently was how little (if any) of the revenue from Northland swamp kauri actually ends up in the pocket of Northland people. I was amazed. Probably should not be.

[unstuck]

CRash and burn. Like this...



Faaaark.:eek5:

[Crasherfromwayback]

Faaaark.:eek5:

Lol. Yep. The eyes on the cunt whilst coming in to land. Priceless. Been there a few times myself racing. Know the feeling. Impending doom...

[Katman]

IF that was the reason then sure. But we still need to take that shit and sell it.

If the money for the trees stays in New Zealand to benefit all the people of New Zealand then fair enough.

But if the money is going into the pocket of an already wealthy business owner who is going to send the timber straight out of the country then fuck that.

Also, have you stopped to consider how massively hazardous felling wind blown trees is? I can't see the job being done without huge disruption to the surrounding ecosystem (Remember it's a protected conservation area). What's to stop unscrupulous loggers (or wealthy unscrupulous business owners) chopping down a few healthy trees as well?

[Crasherfromwayback]

If the money for the trees stays in New Zealand to benefit all the people of New Zealand then fair enough.

But if the money is going into the pocket of an already wealthy business who is going to send the timber straight out of the country then fuck that.

Also, have you stopped to consider how massively hazardous felling wind blown trees is? I can't see the job being done without huge disruption to the surrounding ecosystem. What's to stop unscrupulous loggers (or wealthy unscrupulous business owners) chopping down a few healthy trees as well?

Agree fully mate.

[oldrider]

If the money for the trees stays in New Zealand to benefit all the people of New Zealand then fair enough.

But if the money is going into the pocket of an already wealthy business who is going to send the timber straight out of the country then fuck that.

Also, have you stopped to consider how massively hazardous felling wind blown trees is? I can't see the job being done without huge disruption to the surrounding ecosystem (Remember it's a protected conservation area). What's to stop unscrupulous loggers (or wealthy unscrupulous business owners) chopping down a few healthy trees as well?

Just a little paranoid maybe? :wacko:

[Katman]

Just a little paranoid maybe? :wacko:

Really John? Perhaps you should go back and reread post #108.

[Katman]

An opposing viewpoint from someone other than the Green party.

http://www.forestandbird.org.nz/what-we-do/publications/media-release/logging-on-conservation-land-makes-no-sense-%E2%80%93-forest-bird

[unstuck]

I still think it would be feasible, with some sensible decision making. As long as it was the west coast region that was the major benefactor from the deal. :2thumbsup

[Katman]

I still think it would be feasible, with some sensible decision making. As long as it was the west coast region that was the major benefactor from the deal. :2thumbsup

It would also need to have consideration for the number of fallen trees within a measured area.

If not legislated for carefully you could have loggers who would clear a huge area of healthy trees simply to gain access to one or two fallen trees.

[Shaun Harris]

Robert, I will bow to you in all things suspensional, but politically you are a veritable fossil.








You can never take the red out of the neck man

[MisterD]

I still think it would be feasible, with some sensible decision making. As long as it was the west coast region that was the major benefactor from the deal. :2thumbsup

The coast and conservation projects will be the major benefactors. It'll be interesting to see what the Labour Party does, and if they oppose, what Damien O'Connor does.

[unstuck]

It would also need to have consideration for the number of fallen trees within a measured area.

If not legislated for carefully you could have loggers who would clear a huge area of healthy trees simply to gain access to one or two fallen trees.

That why I said Sensible decision making was needed.:2thumbsup

I would think it possible to filter the logs into the markets that already exist and create additional employment also.

[Ocean1]

An opposing viewpoint from someone other than the Green party.

http://www.forestandbird.org.nz/what-we-do/publications/media-release/logging-on-conservation-land-makes-no-sense-%E2%80%93-forest-bird

Seriously? You're using forest & bird as a credibility check for the greens? :killingme

[Swoop]

An opposing viewpoint from someone other than the Green party.

http://www.forestandbird.org.nz/what-we-do/publications/media-release/logging-on-conservation-land-makes-no-sense-%E2%80%93-forest-bird

Seriously?
These eco mentalists are potentially worse than the Greenatics.
Supporting 1080 terrorism on the chance of "saving" one of their favoured species whilst decimating the entire environment?

[puddytat]

http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/06/21/key-cant-remember-5-eye-mass-spying-re-orientation-party-and-we-cant-see-governments-letters-to-donghua-liu/


Why cant we see the Govts letters to donghua-liu ?

[oldrider]

Seriously? You're using forest & bird as a credibility check for the greens? :killingme


Seriously?
These eco mentalists are potentially worse than the Greenatics.
Supporting 1080 terrorism on the chance of "saving" one of their favoured species whilst decimating the entire environment?

Our (NZ) cup runneth over with these softcock twits add to that collection DOC and Nationals Nick Smith and there you have a recipe for the perfect vacuum! :wacko:

[mada]

http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/06/21/key-cant-remember-5-eye-mass-spying-re-orientation-party-and-we-cant-see-governments-letters-to-donghua-liu/


Why cant we see the Govts letters to donghua-liu ?

According to the Department of Internal Affairs releasing it would breach the Privacy Act due to commercial sensitivity.

Must be something to do with how much Mr Liu donated to the National Party and the favours he was getting in return!

The funniest thing about it is that the Nats can't even make up their own minds on when they knew about the 11 year old letter. They expect Cunners to remember 11 years ago, but can't even remember what they did a few weeks ago. We can trust them and their memories - tui billboard :tugger:

Can't wait to vote these incompetent fuckers out.

[Ocean1]

Can't wait to vote these incompetent fuckers out.

Given the alternatives I'd say you're in for a very, very long wait.

[mada]

Given the alternatives I'd say you're in for a very, very long wait.

I don't think so.

A Labour-NZFirst-Greens alliance would be able work together without major hiccups. The Greens and NZFirst see eye to eye on a lot of issues economically (such as foreign investment) and it would force the Green party to be less extremist. Labour could easily push and pressure the Greens to downplay their further-left policies to focus on Inequality, Housing, Unemployment, and Debt. These are the main issue that concerns voters.

If Maori party are lucky and even get voted back in to Parliament they could go either way. National voters are not happy with the supposed "pandering", and a lot of Maori voters are not happy with perceived "selling out". Maori Party can easily fit into a Labour-NZFirst-Greens alliance now that Helen is gone, and the Paid Parental Bill should be evidence of how flakey National's relationship is with its minor allies.

Media commentators may be saying the same thing as last time - that its a done deal, but everyone I know left and right is certainly standing up to vote this election with lots of changes. You really think that somehow there has been a massive swing in votes?

Given NZ's previous election histories (eg. Helen Clark/Labour abysmal polling vs Bolger - yet would've governed if Winston went with her, and then not that much better versus Shipley and last elections supposed "walk over" ) I would say that this election will be as close as they come with every vote actually counting.

The left don't even need to go anywhere near Dotcon and Mana. I reckon after this election Mana will be pretty much fucked from their selling out. It's a scare tactic by the govt that the left will need them. It's equivalent to me saying that if National got in you can expect to see incest legalised due to the ACT Party's leaders public views and comments that it should be all good. Potential evidence to support this is the fact ACT are now standing a candidate in Southland. Afterall I remember the stories when growing up in Canterbury about Gore and the far South being the last bastions of "keeping the blood pure". :eek5:

Faced with the prospects of legalised incest and the potential for an increase in devastating autosomal recessive genetic disorders such as haemophilia that may follow, I'm willing to wager my vote on the alternative. :killingme :2thumbsup

[Ocean1]

Media commentators may be saying the same thing as last time - that its a done deal, but everyone I know left and right is certainly standing up to vote this election with lots of changes. You really think that somehow there has been a massive swing in votes?


What? The media is reporting that the latest Fairfax poll shows National wit 57% support, enough to govern alone, and Labour's down further to 23%. I have no fucking idea what media "commentators" are saying, why would anyone with half a brain give a fuck? Based purely on the numbers why would I be looking for a massive swing in votes to keep National in? It is a done deal, the only thing yet to be revealed is what minority crackpot flavour of the week will we be blindsided by after the fact.

NZ politics has swung so far to the left over the last couple of decades that voters have finally recognised the inherent futility of paying people to contribute fuck all. Welcome to the consequences. Put your feet up, it'll be a while, socialism is blue and twitching and won't be coming back in it's current form.

[oldrider]

New Zealand has always been a left leaning country - a product of the state school system and brainwashing from the cradle to the grave! :mellow:

The media as usual will subtly instruct the country to deliver the result that it wants! (Tweedle dee or tweedle dumber .. take your pick!) :wacko:

The electorate will have to wait until the politicians clinch the deal after the sham election is over! - The election simply gives them permission to do this! :brick:

The politicians will then select "the government of their own choice" among themselves completely ignoring what the electorate wants! :psst:

The fun part for the politicians is that the electorate still thinks they are part of a democracy! :nya: . :killingme

[SPman]

NZ is a left leaning country? What fucking reality do you guys inhabit? Some Ayn Randian utopia where people and societies are useless impediments that stop you having all that is truly yours?.......
Jesus H Christ!

[Ocean1]

NZ is a left leaning country? What fucking reality do you guys inhabit? Some Ayn Randian utopia where people and societies are useless impediments that stop you having all that is truly yours?.......
Jesus H Christ!

The one where 55% of NZs voting public claim more in benefits than they contribute in tax, possibly the single most succinct metric describing the extent to which NZ has in fact been steered left by successive governments leveraging envy into votes. The one where NZ provides more in basic human needs than any other country on the planet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Social_Progress_Index regardless of the cost to a largely disenfranchised "productive sector".

You obviously feel otherwise. Which is probably why you're having trouble with your perception of reality not matching the facts. That this hasn't apparently modified your opinion to date suggests that your emotions are likely to continue to drive your opinions for the foreseeable future.

[pete376403]

These opinion polls (Fairfax, 3 news, etc) - who are they asking? I cannot recall a single time I have ever been asked in a poll who I would vote for.
I am guessing they are calling people with a fixed phone (ie not a mobile), so that's going to exclude a hell of a lot of the population, especially the younger people.

Asking the older people if they like john key - sure they are going to get the sort of results we're seeing

[mada]

What? The media is reporting that the latest Fairfax poll shows National wit 57% support, enough to govern alone, and Labour's down further to 23%. I have no fucking idea what media "commentators" are saying, why would anyone with half a brain give a fuck? Based purely on the numbers why would I be looking for a massive swing in votes to keep National in? It is a done deal, the only thing yet to be revealed is what minority crackpot flavour of the week will we be blindsided by after the fact.

NZ politics has swung so far to the left over the last couple of decades that voters have finally recognised the inherent futility of paying people to contribute fuck all. Welcome to the consequences. Put your feet up, it'll be a while, socialism is blue and twitching and won't be coming back in it's current form.


Like I said, look at the past history with polls - they are not reliable. National were supposed to win last election with 57% or higher, instead they ended up close to not even forming a government. This election is likely to be even closer.

If you're so adamant, then you wont need to turn up to vote right? That's the funny thing about it, John Key and the Nats know the race is close, and are worried cos a lot of gullible who believe the polls may not turn up to vote for them because they believe its a done deal!!

[mada]

The one where 55% of NZs voting public claim more in benefits than they contribute in tax, possibly the single most succinct metric describing the extent to which NZ has in fact been steered left by successive governments leveraging envy into votes. The one where NZ provides more in basic human needs than any other on the planet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Social_Progress_Index regardless of the cost to a largely disenfranchised "productive sector".

You obviously feel otherwise. Which is probably why you're having trouble with your perception of reality not matching the facts. That this hasn't apparently modified your opinion to date suggests that your emotions are likely to continue to drive your opinions for the foreseeable future.

Things would be much better if we were a right wing bastion of free markets - where the productive sector made up the bulk of the economy and the service sector made sweet fuck all.

There's a country that works like that - it's called Somalia.

[mada]

I love when people bring up the argument about "the productive sector" and everyone who sponges of them...

Based on this view a motorcycle mechanic who doesn't produce anything is arguably worthless compared to Harley Davidson, Honda etc. who pump out the bikes. What a load of crap.

Those who bleat the loudest about beneficiaries would be the first to complain if everyone had a job and inflation was to rise or they had troubles finding a worker who would accept crap pay.

It's not left wing economics that creates unemployment and beneficaries, right wing economics requires it - otherwise the labour market is not "competitive". :facepalm:

[Ocean1]

QUOTE=mada;1130736842]Like I said, look at the past history with polls - they are not reliable. [/QUOTE]

http://www.interactives.co.nz/2013/Jun/ipsos/ipsos-methodology.html

298305[

NEXT!


Things would be much better if we were a right wing bastion of free markets - where the productive sector made up the bulk of the economy and the service sector made sweet fuck all.

There's a country that works like that - it's called Somalia.

Free market concepts aren't an artefact of the right, they're simply the baseline against which all commercial performance should be measured.

Somalia is in fact the perfect example of the natural consequence of unrestrained socialism: 0% producers, 100% non-producers.


I love when people bring up the argument about "the productive sector" and everyone who sponges of them...

Based on this view a motorcycle mechanic who doesn't produce anything is arguably worthless compared to Harley Davidson, Honda etc. who pump out the bikes. What a load of crap.

My point was to highlight how fucking ridiculous it is to refer to those who actually produce something of some value as a "sector", as if it's perfectly reasonable to expect to be part of some alternative. It's not. And the service "sector" IS part of the productive sector, anyone who provides something someone else wants is by definition productive.


Those who bleat the loudest about beneficiaries would be the first to complain if everyone had a job and inflation was to rise or they had troubles finding a worker who would accept crap pay.

They would, eh?

Well at least it'd make a change from beneficiaries bleating about not wanting to work for the presumably uncrap pay they're currently not earning.


It's not left wing economics that creates unemployment and beneficaries, right wing economics requires it - otherwise the labour market is not "competitive". :facepalm:

Yes. Which "right wing" economics require unemployment and beneficiaries?

Never mind. I can see you're another who feels strongly enough about some fuzzy bourgeoisie not to confuse facts with opinion.

Go away.

[mada]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_New_Zealand_general_electi on,_2011#Party_vote_and_key_events

Shows it all. Poll range pre-2011 election for National lowest = 47% and highest = 57.4%. Most polls in mid 50's. On election date, Nationals result = 47%. Like I said, if you're so confident about the polls you wont need to turn up. It's a Dunne deal right?!

NZ's monetary policy:

http://nzier.org.nz/economics/monetary-policy

"The inflation tradeoff

In an economy, policy changes are about tradeoffs. With inflation the tradeoff is with unemployment. The Phillips curve, pioneered by New Zealand economist Bill Phillips, showed that when inflation rises unemployment falls and vice versa.

High levels of inflation are undesirable. However, if inflation is reduced by choking economic growth, this will lead to a rise in unemployment. Mass unemployment is also undesirable. Hence the RBNZ is charged with the delicate task of balancing inflation and unemployment."


Mainstream economics following Friedman's theories (right wing)

"Unemployment above 0% is seen as necessary to control inflation, to keep inflation from accelerating, i.e., from rising from year to year. This view is based on a theory centering on the concept of the Non-Accelerating Inflation Rate of Unemployment (NAIRU); in the current era, the majority of mainstream economists mean NAIRU when speaking of "full" employment. The NAIRU has also been described by Milton Friedman, among others, as the "natural" rate of unemployment."

"In monetarist economics, particularly the work of Milton Friedman,[1] NAIRU is an acronym for non-accelerating inflation rate of unemployment,[2] and refers to a level of unemployment below which inflation rises. It is widely used in mainstream economics. It was first introduced as NIRU (non-inflationary rate of unemployment) in Modigliani � Papademos (1975), as an improvement over the "natural rate" of unemployment concept.[3][4][5]

According to the economics Cambridge IGCSE specification, NAIRU involves allowing just enough unemployment in the economy to prevent inflation rising above a given target figure."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAIRU


Where are all these lazy beneficiaries bleating about crap pay and it being too hard to work, I always hear righties go on about them - yet when it comes to providing proof, they are somehow scant with their evidence? They hanging out with the mythical hundreds of thousands of young women who have babies to go on the dole?

NZ's largest group of beneficiaries number 600,000 and they take approx $11 billion each year from pensioners. I'm sure like most other righties you wont dip your hand into the socialist kittys of pension and free health care.:niceone:

[AllanB]

Watched him on TV this morning. Do not like his 'style' arrogant. One more strike and Labour is truely stuffed for this election. THe problem with that is The friggen Greens will just get more votes :facepalm:

[Akzle]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_New_Zealand_general_electi on,_2011#Party_vote_and_key_events

Shows it all. Poll range pre-2011 election for National lowest = 47% and highest = 57.4%. Most polls in mid 50's. On election date, Nationals result = 47%. Like I said, if you're so confident about the polls you wont need to turn up. It's a Dunne deal right?!

NZ's monetary policy:

http://nzier.org.nz/economics/monetary-policy

"The inflation tradeoff

In an economy, policy changes are about tradeoffs. With inflation the tradeoff is with unemployment. The Phillips curve, pioneered by New Zealand economist Bill Phillips, showed that when inflation rises unemployment falls and vice versa.

High levels of inflation are undesirable. However, if inflation is reduced by choking economic growth, this will lead to a rise in unemployment. Mass unemployment is also undesirable. Hence the RBNZ is charged with the delicate task of balancing inflation and unemployment."


Mainstream economics following Friedman's theories (right wing)

"Unemployment above 0% is seen as necessary to control inflation, to keep inflation from accelerating, i.e., from rising from year to year. This view is based on a theory centering on the concept of the Non-Accelerating Inflation Rate of Unemployment (NAIRU); in the current era, the majority of mainstream economists mean NAIRU when speaking of "full" employment. The NAIRU has also been described by Milton Friedman, among others, as the "natural" rate of unemployment."

"In monetarist economics, particularly the work of Milton Friedman,[1] NAIRU is an acronym for non-accelerating inflation rate of unemployment,[2] and refers to a level of unemployment below which inflation rises. It is widely used in mainstream economics. It was first introduced as NIRU (non-inflationary rate of unemployment) in Modigliani � Papademos (1975), as an improvement over the "natural rate" of unemployment concept.[3][4][5]

According to the economics Cambridge IGCSE specification, NAIRU involves allowing just enough unemployment in the economy to prevent inflation rising above a given target figure."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAIRU


Where are all these lazy beneficiaries bleating about crap pay and it being too hard to work, I always hear righties go on about them - yet when it comes to providing proof, they are somehow scant with their evidence? They hanging out with the mythical hundreds of thousands of young women who have babies to go on the dole?

NZ's largest group of beneficiaries number 600,000 and they take approx $11 billion each year from pensioners. I'm sure like most other righties you wont dip your hand into the socialist kittys of pension and free health care.:niceone:

i'm'a buy you a beer onetime

[oldrider]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_New_Zealand_general_electi on,_2011#Party_vote_and_key_events

Shows it all. Poll range pre-2011 election for National lowest = 47% and highest = 57.4%. Most polls in mid 50's. On election date, Nationals result = 47%. Like I said, if you're so confident about the polls you wont need to turn up. It's a Dunne deal right?!

NZ's monetary policy:

http://nzier.org.nz/economics/monetary-policy

"The inflation tradeoff

In an economy, policy changes are about tradeoffs. With inflation the tradeoff is with unemployment. The Phillips curve, pioneered by New Zealand economist Bill Phillips, showed that when inflation rises unemployment falls and vice versa.

High levels of inflation are undesirable. However, if inflation is reduced by choking economic growth, this will lead to a rise in unemployment. Mass unemployment is also undesirable. Hence the RBNZ is charged with the delicate task of balancing inflation and unemployment."


Mainstream economics following Friedman's theories (right wing)

"Unemployment above 0% is seen as necessary to control inflation, to keep inflation from accelerating, i.e., from rising from year to year. This view is based on a theory centering on the concept of the Non-Accelerating Inflation Rate of Unemployment (NAIRU); in the current era, the majority of mainstream economists mean NAIRU when speaking of "full" employment. The NAIRU has also been described by Milton Friedman, among others, as the "natural" rate of unemployment."

"In monetarist economics, particularly the work of Milton Friedman,[1] NAIRU is an acronym for non-accelerating inflation rate of unemployment,[2] and refers to a level of unemployment below which inflation rises. It is widely used in mainstream economics. It was first introduced as NIRU (non-inflationary rate of unemployment) in Modigliani � Papademos (1975), as an improvement over the "natural rate" of unemployment concept.[3][4][5]

According to the economics Cambridge IGCSE specification, NAIRU involves allowing just enough unemployment in the economy to prevent inflation rising above a given target figure."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAIRU


Where are all these lazy beneficiaries bleating about crap pay and it being too hard to work, I always hear righties go on about them - yet when it comes to providing proof, they are somehow scant with their evidence? They hanging out with the mythical hundreds of thousands of young women who have babies to go on the dole?

NZ's largest group of beneficiaries number 600,000 and they take approx $11 billion each year from pensioners. I'm sure like most other righties you wont dip your hand into the socialist kittys of pension and free health care.:niceone:

Labours latest forum election period poster plant has emerged ... wondered when you guys would start to show up! :corn:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/member.php/39033-mada :whistle:

[mada]

Labours latest forum election period poster plant has emerged ... wondered when you guys would start to show up! :corn:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/member.php/39033-mada :whistle:

Narrr

I'm a greenie sorry.

bahahaha:bleh:

[oldrider]

Narrr

I'm a greenie sorry.

bahahaha:bleh:

Same thing just leaning a bit further over! :mellow: About as different as AJS and Matchless! :ride: . :kick:

[mada]

Same thing just leaning a bit further over! :mellow: About as different as AJS and Matchless! :ride: . :kick:

least we don't support incest :nya:

https://fmacskasy.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/act.jpg?w=893&h=630

[oldrider]

least we don't support incest :nya:
:eek: You have to be able to get a few things right or you would cease to exist! :niceone: Well done that man! :rolleyes:

[Oakie]

And in that respect, can you recall seeing any of the Green party MPs carrying on like school kids while in parliament?

I can't.

Not in Parliament admittedly but Russel Norman whining "Give me back my sign" (or was it a flag?) at the protest over the Chinese premier's visit.

[Katman]

Not in Parliament admittedly but Russel Norman whining "Give me back my sign" (or was it a flag?) at the protest over the Chinese premier's visit.

Once again, not even close to what I'm referring to.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Narrr

I'm a greenie sorry.

bahahaha:bleh:

Sucks to be you.

[Oscar]

least we don't support incest :nya:


I see that after a cursory dalliance with some facts, you've moved back to propaganda.
I'm no fan of ACT, but that's a media beatup.

[imdying]

Asking the older people if they like john key - sure they are going to get the sort of results we're seeingThat would still be relevant though, as 40% of people aged 18-30 did not vote in the last general election.

[Robbo]

Narrr

I'm a greenie sorry.

bahahaha:bleh:

The Green Hypocrites.

[mada]

The Green Hypocrites.

Shit I didn't realise eating some greasies was now a political crime.

[Robbo]

Shit I didn't realise eating some greasies was now a political crime.

It is'nt yet What made you think it was??

Go back and read the script again..

Then see if you can figure out the hypocracy.

[mada]

It is'nt yet What made you think it was??

Go back and read the script again..

Then see if you can figure out the hypocracy.

Yeh... so? Lots of health workers tell other people not to OVER consume shit food all the time, and then go eat SOME shit food themselves.

Is it any different to the government bringing in two candidates who used to be tobacco lobbyists while campaigning against smoking?

Nek minut I'm a hypocrite for riding a motorbike while wanting to decrease pollution<_<

[Robbo]

Yeh... so? Lots of health workers tell other people not to OVER consume shit food all the time, and then go eat SOME shit food themselves.

Is it any different to the government bringing in two candidates who used to be tobacco lobbyists while campaigning against smoking?

Nek minut I'm a hypocrite for riding a motorbike while wanting to decrease pollution<_<

You obviously can't read or understand the script as posted. It refers only to a fat and sugar tax by a potential political party who could eventually legistlate for it. The pic shows a fair size greeny outside KFC. Rather ironic.
It has nothing to do with tobacco or motorbike riding so what the fuck are you rambling on about???

[mada]

You obviously can't read or understand the script as posted. It refers only to a fat and sugar tax by a potential political party who could eventually legistlate for it. The pic shows a fair size greeny outside KFC. Rather ironic.
It has nothing to do with tobacco or motorbike riding so what the fuck are you rambling on about???

All I see are a lot of ASSumptions.

They're parked on the fucking road, not even in the KFC carpark - Dominion Rd and Balmoral intersection to be precise, near all my favourite Oriental eateries. They don't even have KFC in their hands. Compared to a lot of other middle/late aged ladies in NZ, the woman are "fair sized". They could be large due to a genetic or metabolic disorder, rather than being someone who is hungus as and shovles down KFC.

If you can't understand the meaning of what I wrote before, it would ironically mean you need to look the definition of irony up.:facepalm:

[Robbo]

All I see are a lot of ASSumptions.

They're parked on the fucking road, not even in the KFC carpark - Dominion Rd and Balmoral intersection to be precise, near all my favourite Oriental eateries. They don't even have KFC in their hands. Compared to a lot of other middle/late aged ladies in NZ, the woman are "fair sized". They could be large due to a genetic or metabolic disorder, rather than being someone who is hungus as and shovles down KFC.

If you can't understand the meaning of what I wrote before, it would ironically mean you need to look the definition of irony up.:facepalm:

I won't even try and explain it to you any further as you are obviously too thick to comprehend the pic, the quote and the KFC store in the background, all of which was taken from the media today. It is to point out the hypocracy of a party that wants a sugar and fat tax.
The same would apply to National, Labour, Mana or any other party pictured in the same situation.
Now if that doesn't make sense to you then there is no hope for you....

[Katman]

You obviously can't read or understand the script as posted. It refers only to a fat and sugar tax by a potential political party who could eventually legistlate for it. The pic shows a fair size greeny outside KFC. Rather ironic.
It has nothing to do with tobacco or motorbike riding so what the fuck are you rambling on about???

Nothing wrong with it at all if that person doesn't mind paying a fat and sugar tax.

[Robert Taylor]

Given the alternatives I'd say you're in for a very, very long wait.

Exactly right. Maurice Williamson at least had the common decency to resign as a cabinet minister. Something that the hypocritical millionaire but socialism espousing leader of the Labour party could think about. His immediate predecessor was actually a genuine and very likeable guy

[mada]

I won't even try and explain it to you any further as you are obviously too thick to comprehend the pic, the quote and the KFC store in the background, all of which was taken from the media today. It is to point out the hypocracy of a party that wants a sugar and fat tax.
The same would apply to National, Labour, Mana or any other party pictured in the same situation.
Now if that doesn't make sense to you then there is no hope for you....

You don't seem to understand that one can support a TAX on shit foods, and still enjoy eating shit foods....

I know I fucking do.

Here's more Green "irony" for you.... The Greens oppose war, yet one of their candidates is a Major in the NZ Army...:shit:


https://www.greens.org.nz/candidates/tane-woodley

[Robbo]

Nothing wrong with it at all if that person doesn't mind paying a fat and sugar tax.

Agreed Steve, except taxing a problem doesn't solve the problem and why governments resort to this as a solution I don't know. It just means that you and I who don't have a size problem will be paying for it.
The solution starts with educating both the parents and those who could end up being obese due to their diet.
Cutting back on the "in your face" tv advertising of fast food outlets that are designed to attract kids attention would also be a good start.

[Katman]

Here's more Green "irony" for you.... The Greens oppose war, yet one of their candidates is a Major in the NZ Army...:shit:


If he doesn't get the fast food example he's not going to get that one.

[Robbo]

You don't seem to understand that one can support a TAX on shit foods, and still enjoy eating shit foods....

I know I fucking do.

Here's more Green "irony" for you.... The Greens oppose war, yet one of their candidates is a Major in the NZ Army...:shit:


https://www.greens.org.nz/candidates/tane-woodley

Yes Mada, but do you want to pay a tax for someone elses bad eating habit? I enjoy junk food probably just as much as you do but in moderation and therefore I aren't obese. Education is the only answer, not taxation.

[Katman]

Agreed Steve, except taxing a problem doesn't solve the problem and why governments resort to this as a solution I don't know.

I read this bit and thought that maybe you know me.


It just means that you and I who don't have a size problem will be paying for it.


Then read this bit and realised you're just guessing.

[Katman]

Yes Mada, but do you want to pay a tax for someone elses bad eating habit?

You'd only pay it if you shopped there.

And yes, it's a bad habit.

[mada]

Agreed Steve, except taxing a problem doesn't solve the problem and why governments resort to this as a solution I don't know. It just means that you and I who don't have a size problem will be paying for it.
The solution starts with educating both the parents and those who could end up being obese due to their diet.
Cutting back on the "in your face" tv advertising of fast food outlets that are designed to attract kids attention would also be a good start.

Ofcourse taxing is not the solution to obesity. But it helps pay for the health bills. Mainstream parties don't care about addressing the causes.

There already is plenty of education around healthy foods. It means jack shite if parents can't afford the basics, or are too busy working shit hours to cook a decent meal.

It helps that we have successive governments and councils who encourage kids NOT to bike and walk to school by investing more money into bigger wider roads with more traffic near their schools.

If lots of motorcyclists nowadays won't ride in Auckland without protection how many of them would let their kids bike to school on those same dangerous roads?

[mada]

Yes Mada, but do you want to pay a tax for someone elses bad eating habit? I enjoy junk food probably just as much as you do but in moderation and therefore I aren't obese. Education is the only answer, not taxation.

We already do... via the health bill mate. That health bill that keeps rising.

[Robbo]

I read this bit and thought that maybe you know me.



Then read this bit and realised you're just guessing.

No, not guessing, long time ago though. All good:yes:

[Robbo]

We already do... via the health bill mate. That health bill that keeps rising.

That's true but it gets to a point where enough is enough where taxes are concerned. The extra money only seems to go into forming committees to talk about it and not really acting on it. All governments have been guilty of this.

[Ocean1]

With inflation the tradeoff is with unemployment. The Phillips curve, pioneered by New Zealand economist Bill Phillips, showed that when inflation rises unemployment falls and vice versa.

Yes. It's a lovely story. But the government don't actually sack droves of hard working, productive employees in order to control inflation, do they?
Like every other first world country on the planet they restrict access to money, isn't that right? So the trade off isn't unemployment for inflation, it's availability of cheap loans for inflation, isn't it?

The fact is that only very prosperous economies can afford to keep marginally productive workers. Another fact is that unrestrained inflation rapidly causes living standards to plummet across the board, doesn't it? Like your example, that Socialist paragon of economic might, Somalia.

In fact the government, along with every taxpayer would much rather that those employees kept their jobs, ideally by producing at least as much as they cost their employers.

So if the received wisdom is that controlling inflation using some form of official cash rate is a uniquely right wing trait, and that it's inherently bad and unfair then where, amongst the world's most successful countries are all of these communist countries that don't control inflation that way?


[Where are all these lazy beneficiaries bleating about crap pay and it being too hard to work, I always hear righties go on about them - yet when it comes to providing proof, they are somehow scant with their evidence? They hanging out with the mythical hundreds of thousands of young women who have babies to go on the dole?

We've already done this, the majority of Kiwis are beneficiaries, didn't that fit your world view? Oh, right, you want proof.

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2011/07/net_taxpayers.html

Not only are the vast majority of Kiwis beneficiaries but a comfortable majority of them receive benefits worth more than the tax they pay.

"households with income of $50,000 or below pay no net tax at all. Not only do they pay no net tax, they receive around $4.40 in benefits for every $1 of tax they pay. So they pay $1.7b in tax and receive $7.7b in welfare (and this excludes superannuation)."

I'm still waiting for an explanation about how most polls are unreliable, based on a single unreferenced example, probably one of the hundreds displayed on that wee graphic I posted showing that the majority of professional polls in NZ meet the 95% confidence they claim on the box.

And how this means National need a huge swing in their favour to win the next election.

And how viable it is to maintain some fuzzy alternative to productive employment.

[Ocean1]

Nothing wrong with it at all if that person doesn't mind paying a fat and sugar tax.

Or his own health bills.

And let's hear none of the rampant bullshit about how healthy food is out of reach for the poor dears, the fallacy that Maca's and KFC is cheaper than healthy food from the supermarket has long since been laid to rest.

[Ocean1]

We already do... via the health bill mate. That health bill that keeps rising.


That's true but it gets to a point where enough is enough where taxes are concerned. The extra money only seems to go into forming committees to talk about it and not really acting on it. All governments have been guilty of this.

Probably some truth to that. But given the standards compliance protocols the public, sorry the press demand of the industry their admin costs are relatively low. It's probably mostly true to say the extra budget has gone to increased services.

[Robbo]

Or his own health bills.

And let's hear none of the rampant bullshit about how healthy food is out of reach for the poor dears, the fallacy that Maca's and KFC is cheaper than healthy food from the supermarket has long since been laid to rest.

Absolutely Ocean. Maca's and KFC etc are bloody expensive. We can do a healthy fresh food dinner meal for two adults for around $6. That's less than one Mac burger so there are no excuses that it can't be done especially if you factor in the cost of petrol in driving down to your local fast food restaurant and back again. Healthy eating is not expensive so how do you get the eataholics out of the habit of junk food other than for the occasional treat.

[unstuck]

Healthy eating is not expensive so how do you get the eataholics out of the habit of junk food other than for the occasional treat.

Tax the fuck out of it, like smokes and booze and motorcycles and anything else that may be bad for your health.:2thumbsup

[Ocean1]

Absolutely Ocean. Maca's and KFC etc are bloody expensive. We can do a healthy fresh food dinner meal for two adults for around $6. That's less than one Mac burger so there are no excuses that it can't be done especially if you factor in the cost of petrol in driving down to your local fast food restaurant and back again. Healthy eating is not expensive so how do you get the eataholics out of the habit of junk food other than for the occasional treat.

Dunno. The "correct" way is to charge them the price for health insurance commensurate with their risk.

But if that's not a starter, (and it's not, just as ACC levies don't give the authorities the right to dictate our behaviour) then either you assume the right to force them to behave according to their contribution to the health system, (also not workable, 'cause a lot of them couldn't pay) or you just average the cost out over the rest of the long suffering tax payers.

Taxing KFC is just the sort of market interference that, taken to it's logical conclusion just completely fucks the economy.

[Robbo]

Dunno. The "correct" way is to charge them the price for health insurance commensurate with their risk.

But if that's not a starter, (and it's not, just as ACC levies don't give the authorities the right to dictate our behaviour) then either you assume the right to force them to behave according to their contribution to the health system, (also not workable, 'cause a lot of them couldn't pay) or you just average the cost out over the rest of the long suffering tax payers.

Taxing KFC is just the sort of market interference that, taken to it's logical conclusion just completely fucks the economy.

Just a long term thought, but as the number of obese people are growing, then many of them will probably not live beyond middle age.
Therefore, we will not have to fund their pension and the savings in that alone should more than cover the cost of any temporary health repairs
they may require during their shortened years. This would be a win, win all round. If they choose to continue their living like that, then so be it.

[pritch]

Ok ok, carry on folks, but could someone please indulge me?

Does a Chinese person, living in China, without NZ residency, count as a New Zealand politicians constituent or not?

Just to indulge you mind; if Liu had an address in Cunliffe's constituency at the time - yes.

[Winston001]

f

In an economy, policy changes are about tradeoffs. With inflation the tradeoff is with unemployment. The Phillips curve, pioneered by New Zealand economist Bill Phillips, showed that when inflation rises unemployment falls and vice versa.

High levels of inflation are undesirable. However, if inflation is reduced by choking economic growth, this will lead to a rise in unemployment. Mass unemployment is also undesirable. Hence the RBNZ is charged with the delicate task of balancing inflation and unemployment."


Mainstream economics following Friedman's theories (right wing)

"Unemployment above 0% is seen as necessary to control inflation, to keep inflation from accelerating, i.e., from rising from year to year. This view is based on a theory centering on the concept of the Non-Accelerating Inflation Rate of Unemployment (NAIRU)..."

With respect, you are confused.

Nobody wants anyone to be unemployed or to feel useless. That is not how human communities work. We are social animals and at a local level help each other out.

Economists deal with the big picture and even then disagree strongly, so its wrong to state that economic theory dictates certain outcomes.

Historically ie. before the industrial age, unemployment was the norm because work depended upon the seasons and the weather. In good years there was plenty for all, in bad years not so much, but if the king had a war on then there was work and food.

Full employment is a modern construct enjoyed by developed nations and argued over in air-conditioned rooms but if you go to Africa, India, China, and South America you will find that paid work is a precious and uncertain thing. Unemployment is very real with no social safety net.

[oldrider]

MMP is rather like a planetary system the sun is the financial system and is always at the centre the major parties are the planets and the minor parties are the moons!

They may differ a little in proportion relative to one another but the outcome is always relatively the same and will be forever!

Elections have very little effect on the final alignment but is there to appease the creatures living on the planets and moons to think that they actually belong and participate!

The final alignment will be destined by the sun the planets and moons themselves. :lol:

[Banditbandit]

Dunno. The "correct" way is to charge them the price for health insurance commensurate with their risk.

But if that's not a starter, (and it's not, just as ACC levies don't give the authorities the right to dictate our behaviour) then either you assume the right to force them to behave according to their contribution to the health system, (also not workable, 'cause a lot of them couldn't pay) or you just average the cost out over the rest of the long suffering tax payers.

Taxing KFC is just the sort of market interference that, taken to it's logical conclusion just completely fucks the economy.

OK .. so we have a very healthy economy with a huge number of sick people ... That's a really good trade off!!!!

[Ocean1]

OK .. so we have a very healthy economy with a huge number of sick people ... That's a really good trade off!!!!

Correct. In spite of the historically unprecedented range of health resources available to everyone.

I know you’re desperate to believe that’s all an evel govt plot, but it’s not. In fact health outcomes across the board have never been better. Life expectancy increases have tapered off after huge gains over the last few decades, but that's a matter of lifestyle choices, choices only available in seriously wealthy countries. And the further our collective behaviour drifts from that for which we evolved then the less effect all of those resources will have.

The govt. like most taxpayers would really really rather all you fat bastards left off the KFC, gave up smoking and broke a sweat occasionally. :sweatdrop

[MisterD]

The coast and conservation projects will be the major benefactors. It'll be interesting to see what the Labour Party does, and if they oppose, what Damien O'Connor does.

...and O'Conner and Tirikatene have voted with the Government, Cunliffe has no power over his caucus, but the we knew that when the list was released.

I bet DC wishes he could pass a bill to cart away all the deadwood in his caucus :D

[Robert Taylor]

...and O'Conner and Tirikatene have voted with the Government, Cunliffe has no power over his caucus, but the we knew that when the list was released.

I bet DC wishes he could pass a bill to cart away all the deadwood in his caucus :D

Yes Cunliffe needs carting off as well. Damian Oconnor is not of the side of the fence that I would ever vote for. But all kudos to him, he is a realist and a strong advocate for the region he represents. Pity there arent more MPs like him.

[Swoop]

I bet DC wishes he could pass a bill to cart away all the deadwood in his caucus :D
I bet his caucus wishes they were getting the polling they had, when Shearer was leader.

Rough times ahead as well. Over a dozen donation "problems" have been made to liarbour and are yet to hit the media.

[Ocean1]

I bet his caucus wishes they were getting the polling they had, when Shearer was leader.

Rough times ahead as well. Over a dozen donation "problems" have been made to liarbour and are yet to hit the media.

I noticed the significantly negative public reaction yesterday to labour's NEW IMPROVED tax and spend idea with no surprise. How long do you suppose they'll hold on to what's increasingly obviously a policy failure, in both public and functional terms.

[oldrider]

I noticed the significantly negative public reaction yesterday to labour's NEW IMPROVED tax and spend idea with no surprise. How long do you suppose they'll hold on to what's increasingly obviously a policy failure, in both public and functional terms.

I think they (Liabour) got their ideas for their latest offering while reading "Classic Comics" adventures of Robin Hood and the sheriff of Notingham! :wacko::corn:

[mada]

I noticed the significantly negative public reaction yesterday to labour's NEW IMPROVED tax and spend idea with no surprise. How long do you suppose they'll hold on to what's increasingly obviously a policy failure, in both public and functional terms.


Let me guess... if we increase the top rates all those people affected will move overseas to other Western Countries? (which funnily enough already have much higher income tax rates than us).

I think most middle and working class people would be more supportive of a % increase for those over $150,000 than taxing fucking kids and paperboys like this ruthless government. Gotta hand it to Key for being a good used car salesman, selling it to the public that collecting $14 million over 4 years from little kiddies work money was essential. :violin:

[MisterD]

Let me guess... if we increase the top rates all those people affected will move overseas to other Western Countries? (which funnily enough already have much higher income tax rates than us).

Ask any tax lawyer which flavour of Goverment makes most work for them. Neither the Cullen increases, the hikes in the UK or France produced anything like the revenue that those governments' calcualtions thought they should.

As for press releases saying they're going to crack down on Facebook... :nya: If the US government can't get taxes out of Facebook because they're domiciled in Ireland, what show does Cunners have?

[Oscar]

Let me guess... if we increase the top rates all those people affected will move overseas to other Western Countries? (which funnily enough already have much higher income tax rates than us).

I think most middle and working class people would be more supportive of a % increase for those over $150,000 than taxing fucking kids and paperboys like this ruthless government. Gotta hand it to Key for being a good used car salesman, selling it to the public that collecting $14 million over 4 years from little kiddies work money was essential. :violin:

Heard of "Working for Families"?
Working class families (over 50% of households) in NZ pay little or no income tax.

[Swoop]

How long do you suppose they'll hold on to what's increasingly obviously a policy failure, in both public and functional terms.
I'm surprised Silent T hasn't been rolled yet, even shortly before an election. The liarbour caucus is seriously unhappy.

As for coming up with new ideas and heading in new directions... they had better speak with NZ's biggest contributor to the political funding arena - the teacher's union.
Sadly their brain cell still cannot get away from the idioms that restrict their own free thinking in this area.

[oldrider]

Let me guess... if we increase the top rates all those people affected will move overseas to other Western Countries? (which funnily enough already have much higher income tax rates than us).

I think most middle and working class people would be more supportive of a % increase for those over $150,000 than taxing fucking kids and paperboys like this ruthless government. Gotta hand it to Key for being a good used car salesman, selling it to the public that collecting $14 million over 4 years from little kiddies work money was essential. :violin:

Does anybody (KB) out there actually know mada? :confused:

[mada]

Does anybody (KB) out there actually know mada? :confused:

I'm Clint.:yes:

[mada]

Heard of "Working for Families"?
Working class families (over 50% of households) in NZ pay little or no income tax.

Yes cos New Zealand wages are so shit compared to inflation that the government has to subsidise employees.

If the government (Clarks and Keys) had had balls and rectified the stupid housing debt / runaway prices then WFF would not be required...

And now we have the same monumental fucked up mentality dominating our Christchurch response "leave it to the market"....:facepalm:

[mada]

Ask any tax lawyer which flavour of Goverment makes most work for them. Neither the Cullen increases, the hikes in the UK or France produced anything like the revenue that those governments' calcualtions thought they should.

As for press releases saying they're going to crack down on Facebook... :nya: If the US government can't get taxes out of Facebook because they're domiciled in Ireland, what show does Cunners have?

The same can be said for asset sales - did not produce the revenue calculated or expected.

The same can be said for the tax switch - did not produce the revenue calculated or expected. In fact all it did was screw over working and middle class families more given that GST is a component of pretty much every single purchase for a service or product in the country - unless of course buying illicit goods.

Rumours have it National are planning another GST increase. Remember what Key said prior to the 2008 election about raising GST? :tugger:

[Oscar]

Yes cos New Zealand wages are so shit compared to inflation that the government has to subsidise employees.



What inflation?
What has that got to do with marginal tax rates?

[mada]

What inflation?
What has that got to do with marginal tax rates?

Nevermind.... Agree to disagree.

Like I said before, if you guys are so confident and right then you wont even need to turn up to vote - its a foregone conclusion:yawn:.

[oldrider]

Yes cos New Zealand wages are so shit compared to inflation that the government has to subsidise employees.

If the government (Clarks and Keys) had had balls and rectified the stupid housing debt / runaway prices then WFF would not be required...

And now we have the same monumental fucked up mentality dominating our Christchurch response "leave it to the market"....:facepalm:


The same can be said for asset sales - did not produce the revenue calculated or expected.

The same can be said for the tax switch - did not produce the revenue calculated or expected. In fact all it did was screw over working and middle class families more given that GST is a component of pretty much every single purchase for a service or product in the country - unless of course buying illicit goods.

Rumours have it National are planning another GST increase. Remember what Key said prior to the 2008 election about raising GST? :tugger:

Party political postings .. sorry Clint I think you are a party forum stooge! :shifty:

[mada]

Party political postings .. sorry Clint I think you are a party forum stooge! :shifty:

I FUCKING LOL'D in real life.. Sorry I'm not the real Clint.. that was a dig at the Greens/Gareth Hughes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaOMGLINdpw

I am happy to criticise all parties especially Labour when there is clear wrong doing and they deserve it. I was as critical of Helen and her cronyism as I have been of Key and his.

[Oscar]

Nevermind.... Agree to disagree.

Like I said before, if you guys are so confident and right then you wont even need to turn up to vote - its a foregone conclusion:yawn:.

How can I disagree with you if you can't explain what yer on about?

Who are "you guys"?
i don't belong to any party.

[Oscar]

Let me guess... if we increase the top rates all those people affected will move overseas to other Western Countries? (which funnily enough already have much higher income tax rates than us).




What are you on about?
The Aussie tax rate to $180,000 is 30.3%.
And you can earn $18,200 with paying ANY tax.

[Swoop]

... then you wont even need to turn up to vote - its a foregone conclusion:yawn:.

Well, from what we have seen, there is no credible opposition available.
It seems Internet/mana will get a seat or two, and who knows what Winnie will come out of it with.
"Interesting times" ...

[mada]

What are you on about?
The Aussie tax rate to $180,000 is 30.3%.
And you can earn $18,200 with paying ANY tax.

I think your info is a bit outdate my friend.... Last years tax rates were basically the same as the upcoming years.

https://www.ato.gov.au/Rates/Individual-income-tax-rates/

The following rates for 2014-15 apply from 1 July 2014.

Taxable income

Tax on this income 0 – $18,200 Nil

$18,201 – $37,000 19c for each $1 over $18,200

$37,001 – $80,000 $3,572 plus 32.5c for each $1 over $37,000

$80,001 – $180,000 $17,547 plus 37c for each $1 over $80,000

$180,001 and over $54,547 plus 45c for each $1 over $180,000

That doesn't even include the 2% levy for medicare - things are much more expensive if you are claiming not to be an "Australian resident" for tax purposes...:yawn:

[mada]

Maybe you were meaning the UK?

Rate 2013-14 2014-15
Starting rate for savings: 10%* £0 - £2,790 £0 - £2,880
Basic rate: 20% £0 - £32,010 £0 - £31,865
Higher rate: 40% £32,011 - £150,000 £31,866 - £150,000
Additional rate: 50% N/A N/A
Additional rate: 45% from 6 April 2013 Over £150,000 Over £150,000

:yawn:

Unfortunately even Somalia has reintroduced tax...

Anyway, who cares for facts and politics... its the weekend - time for booze.

[Ocean1]

Let me guess... if we increase the top rates all those people affected will move overseas to other Western Countries? (which funnily enough already have much higher income tax rates than us).

That's pretty much exactly what happened until recently isn't it? In spite of, as you point out some pretty serious disincentives to do so the cream of NZ's producers fucked off overseas. How much tax did we make from that lot? You have the smell of one who doesn't change his opinion in the face of evidence to the contrary.


I think most middle and working class people would be more supportive of a % increase for those over $150,000 than taxing fucking kids and paperboys like this ruthless government.

Ignoring the schoolboy rhetoric, you're apparently wrong. Not only do all of those polls you claim are so inaccurate disagree with you but more specifically so did Wednesday's stuff poll, which in answer to the question "do you agree with Labour's policy to raise tax on income over $150k to 36%" answered "No, they pay enough already".

For what it's worth I agree, what possible reason would anyone have for demanding more from the 9% that already supply over 70% of tax revenue?

You'd have to be a right greedy bastard.

[Robert Taylor]

That's pretty much exactly what happened until recently isn't it? In spite of, as you point out some pretty serious disincentives to do so the cream of NZ's producers fucked off overseas. How much tax did we make from that lot? You have the smell of one who doesn't change his opinion in the face of evidence to the contrary.



Ignoring the schoolboy rhetoric, you're apparently wrong. Not only do all of those polls you claim are so inaccurate disagree with you but more specifically so did Wednesday's stuff poll, which in answer to the question "do you agree with Labour's policy to raise tax on income over $150k to 36%" answered "No, they pay enough already".

For what it's worth I agree, what possible reason would anyone have for demanding more from the 9% that already supply over 70% of tax revenue?

You'd have to be a right greedy bastard.

100% agree. What I want to know is why a lot of these Iwi entities, flush with taxpayer funded handouts ( on shonky historical pretext ) are paying no tax? Whats that about?

Far from decrying the huge amount of tax that the very wealthy pay we should be more concerned about the tax revenue that is not being enforced, such as the huge volume of internet purchasing that is arriving unlevied and untaxed. Tax is payed if you purchase goods locally, why should it not be the same if you purchase offshore?

That idiot Hollande in France ( will only be a one termer ) was taxing the rich at 75% and to date has scared away 4500 or so of them to other countries who will accept their revenue stream and tax them only ''politely'' at the same time. This socialist taxing muppett worked out that his tax revenue has actually fallen and that the French economy has stalled. He is now engaged in doing a 'u' turn. Of course like the hypocrites that socialist leaders largely are he is enjoying the trappings of a lavish lifestyle, totally at odds with the tired old rhetoric that rich people are evil...

For myself Im not rich but work bloody hard , up to 80 hours per week and am comfortable. I dont expect to be severely penalised for that by politicians who will promise the world to accept in part the guaranteed votes of some members of society ( I only said some! ) that are improvident

A flat consumption tax only is the very best solution for helping to instil a thriving economy that will benefit everyone

[Robert Taylor]

Well, from what we have seen, there is no credible opposition available.
It seems Internet/mana will get a seat or two, and who knows what Winnie will come out of it with.
"Interesting times" ...

Hopefully also Colin Craig will get a seat. There needs to be a right wing party keeping the Nats from straying too far in a leftwards direction

[Oscar]

I think your info is a bit outdate my friend.... Last years tax rates were basically the same as the upcoming years.

https://www.ato.gov.au/Rates/Individual-income-tax-rates/

The following rates for 2014-15 apply from 1 July 2014.

Taxable income

Tax on this income 0 – $18,200 Nil

$18,201 – $37,000 19c for each $1 over $18,200

$37,001 – $80,000 $3,572 plus 32.5c for each $1 over $37,000

$80,001 – $180,000 $17,547 plus 37c for each $1 over $80,000

$180,001 and over $54,547 plus 45c for each $1 over $180,000

That doesn't even include the 2% levy for medicare - things are much more expensive if you are claiming not to be an "Australian resident" for tax purposes...:yawn:

Work it out - the PAYE on 50k income is slightly less in Australia compared to NZ. However your comment comparing income tax rates is fairly silly as it doesn't take into account things like WFF and Aussie Medicare. It becomes even more nonsensical when the overall tax picture is taken into account, GST and such.

[Robert Taylor]

Work it out - the PAYE on 50k income is slightly less in Australia compared to NZ. However your comment comparing income tax rates is fairly silly as it doesn't take into account things like WFF and Aussie Medicare. It becomes even more nonsensical when the overall tax picture is taken into account, GST and such.

Also they are very much battening down the hatches over there after 6 years of a moronic Government that was internally divided. A tax and spend ''Government'' that emptied the piggybank and some. Wages may be higher over there but so are living costs, substanially

[Swoop]

Hopefully also Colin Craig will get a seat. There needs to be a right wing party keeping the Nats from straying too far in a leftwards direction
As much as I agree there needs to be diversification, Colin Craig is a fucking nutbar who really should be MP of The Mason Clinic.

[Robert Taylor]

Yes cos New Zealand wages are so shit compared to inflation that the government has to subsidise employees.

If the government (Clarks and Keys) had had balls and rectified the stupid housing debt / runaway prices then WFF would not be required...

And now we have the same monumental fucked up mentality dominating our Christchurch response "leave it to the market"....:facepalm:

I do agree with your second sentence. Only a little over 1 % of land in NZ is used for housing. There is plenty of land that could have been / should be opened up for housing. Councils have had a feast with the unneccessary and parasitical fees they charge and the time they take. Moreover Ive personally developed a real distaste for the real estate industry who have feasted like the banks on this criminal step in making housing ownership a pipe dream for so many everyday people. This is an international problem with most western democracies and the Green parties have also had a hand in this.

In respect of your first sentence yes and yes but thats also about international pressures and our open slather economy. Multinationals will always find the countries with the cheapest labour so that they cannot neccessarily bring prices down but to maximise their returns. We are all collectively hypocrites because we all wear clothing produced by offshore sweatshop labour that has displaced jobs here and suppressed income increases. We also buy goods on the net instead of supporting local business and their employees. The whole situation ( irrespective of all whys and wherefores devoid of emotion ) just self compounds

But the solutions are not the socialist ones that time and again are a disaster. Common sense wouldnt go amiss.

[Robert Taylor]

As much as I agree there needs to be diversification, Colin Craig is a fucking nutbar who really should be MP of The Mason Clinic.

Citizens binding referendums

End all race based claims and parliamentary seats at a stroke

Against gay marriage etc

Plenty of people that resonate with those three points alone

[Ocean1]

Maybe you were meaning the UK?

Rate 2013-14 2014-15
Starting rate for savings: 10%* £0 - £2,790 £0 - £2,880
Basic rate: 20% £0 - £32,010 £0 - £31,865
Higher rate: 40% £32,011 - £150,000 £31,866 - £150,000
Additional rate: 50% N/A N/A
Additional rate: 45% from 6 April 2013 Over £150,000 Over £150,000


Lets look at the UK, then.

The top 40% of earners pay more tax than they get in benefits, the bottom 60% get more benefits than they pay in tax.

The top 1% generate about 30% of total income-tax.

After "redistribution", the richest 20% has only four times as much money to play with as the poorest 20%.

All of which sorta explains why their economy is in the shit, I mean with incentives like that why the fuck would the average POM bother getting out of bed?

[oldrider]

To remain in or gain power in NZ politicans have to stray left because thats where all the fucking votes are in this country! :sick: :facepalm: ... :brick:

[Winston001]

Lets look at the UK, then.

The top 40% of earners pay more tax than they get in benefits, the bottom 60% get more benefits than they pay in tax.

The top 1% generate about 30% of total income-tax.

After "redistribution", the richest 20% has only four times as much money to play with as the poorest 20%.



Oh yeah Eat the Rich! Damn they's a tasty bunch with the caviar and camembert.

[Ocean1]

Oh yeah Eat the Rich! Damn they's a tasty bunch with the caviar and camembert.

Aye. The left hate commerce and business in particular, it's all some complicated system imposed by some dark conspiracy to defraud the poor of their rights, and they're absolutely certain it's all very unfair. Can't be otherwise, that'd mean everyone had some responsibility for their own success.

Nothing about that picture reflects reality. A market economy is simply a natural extension of the way peaceful humans have always interacted, in honest exchange. It's not "greedy, it's simply how the world has been made a better, safer and far more prosperous place, with far far fewer poor than there's ever been.

Forget "income inequity", statistically there's bugger all to that fashionable lie even before you consider the wealth redistributed to the "poor". The socialists invariably insist that nobody deserves to be poor, but considering that those poor have never been better off, (their grandparents would consider most of them absurdly wealthy) what the left really means is that nobody deserves to be rich. Rich pricks, they don't deserve all that shit.

Envy makes normal people fucking ugly.

[oldrider]

Envy makes normal people fucking ugly.

Left thinking = Envy ... Right thinking = Enable (make things happen) There's nothing left but to get right on with life! :ride:

[SPman]

What a load of tripe this thread rapidly descended to!



Well done lads.

[mashman]

Also they are very much battening down the hatches over there after 6 years of a moronic Government that was internally divided. A tax and spend ''Government'' that emptied the piggybank and some. Wages may be higher over there but so are living costs, substanially

Coz that spending wasn't required in a rapidly expanding economy? Pulease.

[mashman]

That's pretty much exactly what happened until recently isn't it? In spite of, as you point out some pretty serious disincentives to do so the cream of NZ's producers fucked off overseas. How much tax did we make from that lot? You have the smell of one who doesn't change his opinion in the face of evidence to the contrary.

Suffer the smell of 1 shit for the smell of another eh... oooo what a choice.


For what it's worth I agree, what possible reason would anyone have for demanding more from the 9% that already supply over 70% of tax revenue?

You'd have to be a right greedy bastard.

Coz it costs to run a country.

Or in govt.

[mashman]

100% agree. What I want to know is why a lot of these Iwi entities, flush with taxpayer funded handouts ( on shonky historical pretext ) are paying no tax? Whats that about?

Far from decrying the huge amount of tax that the very wealthy pay we should be more concerned about the tax revenue that is not being enforced, such as the huge volume of internet purchasing that is arriving unlevied and untaxed. Tax is payed if you purchase goods locally, why should it not be the same if you purchase offshore?

That idiot Hollande in France ( will only be a one termer ) was taxing the rich at 75% and to date has scared away 4500 or so of them to other countries who will accept their revenue stream and tax them only ''politely'' at the same time. This socialist taxing muppett worked out that his tax revenue has actually fallen and that the French economy has stalled. He is now engaged in doing a 'u' turn. Of course like the hypocrites that socialist leaders largely are he is enjoying the trappings of a lavish lifestyle, totally at odds with the tired old rhetoric that rich people are evil...

For myself Im not rich but work bloody hard , up to 80 hours per week and am comfortable. I dont expect to be severely penalised for that by politicians who will promise the world to accept in part the guaranteed votes of some members of society ( I only said some! ) that are improvident

A flat consumption tax only is the very best solution for helping to instil a thriving economy that will benefit everyone

That Iwi nonsense sounds like 1 department arguing with another department that their department is more important than the other department and should therefore have their budget. Inherently pointless.

I always find it ironic that people who believe they are losing too much money, because of the needs of the country, leave the very country that made them rich when asked to stump up a little more in the way of taxation. I'd be blaming the wankers for leaving, not the govt that had to make a given financial decision.

There is no financial solution Robert. You can try any taxation system you like but you're going to end up back in exactly the same spot. We always have, what makes you believe that things are going to be different this time around?

[Robert Taylor]

To remain in or gain power in NZ politicans have to stray left because thats where all the fucking votes are in this country! :sick: :facepalm: ... :brick:

I fear you are correct. Schoolteachers also have a lot to answer for in that respect.

[mashman]

End all race based claims and parliamentary seats at a stroke

Does not compute.


Against gay marriage etc

[Robert Taylor]

That Iwi nonsense sounds like 1 department arguing with another department that their department is more important than the other department and should therefore have their budget. Inherently pointless.

I always find it ironic that people who believe they are losing too much money, because of the needs of the country, leave the very country that made them rich when asked to stump up a little more in the way of taxation. I'd be blaming the wankers for leaving, not the govt that had to make a given financial decision.

There is no financial solution Robert. You can try any taxation system you like but you're going to end up back in exactly the same spot. We always have, what makes you believe that things are going to be different this time around?

Whilst not agreeing with penal taxes for being successful I do in part hear what you are trying to say in your second paragraph.

[Robert Taylor]

Does not compute.

Correct, race based seats and historical claims make absolutely no computational sense.

[mashman]

Left thinking = Envy ... Right thinking = Enable (make things happen)

:rofl: and the greens are envious disablers I bet.

[mashman]

Whilst not agreeing with penal taxes for being successful I do in part hear what you are trying to say in your second paragraph.

It's not a crusade against the successful, they just happen to hold most of the financial wealth. It's that or you have to borrow. Would you rather put $10 in or would you rather borrow $10 +interest?

[Robert Taylor]

What a load of tripe this thread rapidly descended to!



Well done lads.

I never ever fancied eating tripe when it was presented to me on a plate. What really annoys me about lefties is that they always go about with an air of ''having the moral high ground'' and talk down to those of us that are of a rightwards persuasion as being evil and backward looking. Look at Gough Whitlam in Aussie back in the early 70s. He had all of the rhetoric and presence but had a bunch of idiots working with him and he quickly ran the economy into the dust. I still fondly recall a left leaning schoolteacher ( more than a few of those ) emphatically and loudly telling me that Whitlam was going to be returned by a landslide when he called a snap election. To my delight my assertions that Malcolm Fraser was going to get the landslide proved to be correct.
My father lost his marbles once by voting Labour, just once. To his dying day I reminded him of that inconvenient truth and that it was a major point of difference between him and I.

[Robert Taylor]

It's not a crusade against the successful, they just happen to hold most of the financial wealth. It's that or you have to borrow. Would you rather put $10 in or would you rather borrow $10 +interest?

In essence I am for NZ, its businesses and its citizens. First and foremost. There is no perfect system but Id rather see a lot more loyalty to the country . I am no socialist but I disagree with the greed of many multinationals, I disagree with the uneccessary price hikes that have occured with property and I angrily disagree with the apartheid system that is increasingly being institutionalised in this country.
The money supply should not exist for speculation, it should exist for productive enterprise for the overall good of the country.

[mashman]

In essence I am for NZ, its businesses and its citizens. First and foremost. There is no perfect system but Id rather see a lot more loyalty to the country . I am no socialist but I disagree with the greed of many multinationals, I disagree with the uneccessary price hikes that have occured with property and I angrily disagree with the apartheid system that is increasingly being institutionalised in this country.
The money supply should not exist for speculation, it should exist for productive enterprise for the overall good of the country.

I'm from the UK. I'm for every required business and citizen on the planet. I agree, there is no perfect system, but there is at least 1 that I know of that would foster "loyalty" through voluntary participation. I am no socialist either, however I understand that no money would mean, no price hikes, no property speculation, no apartheid system and no limit to production of the goods and services that are necessary to run a modern day economy... and beyond.
The money supply cannot exist without speculation. The economy needs money, how else do you put money in consumers pockets in order to buy things that society has decided they really need. I've come to loath, in a fleeting way, the waste of society. Do we really need Barbie or the umpteen million toys that kids get these days? No, but they're there and there's an entire industry dedicated to making kids want stuff. It all ends up in the bin. The energy and resources from that little lot would be best used for another purpose.

Essentially, churning out shit because you can and because you have to to keep the economy going is a waste of everyone's time, effort and resources... and given the associated social bullshit that accompanies the needs of the economy, I'd rather we tried something grown up.

P.S. you didn't answer the question :shifty:

[Ocean1]

I got fuckall, I'll just chuck in a general disclaimer and hope nobody notices.

Cheers mate. Get back when you can work up an actual coherent argument, eh?

[Robert Taylor]

I'm from the UK. I'm for every required business and citizen on the planet. I agree, there is no perfect system, but there is at least 1 that I know of that would foster "loyalty" through voluntary participation. I am no socialist either, however I understand that no money would mean, no price hikes, no property speculation, no apartheid system and no limit to production of the goods and services that are necessary to run a modern day economy... and beyond.
The money supply cannot exist without speculation. The economy needs money, how else do you put money in consumers pockets in order to buy things that society has decided they really need. I've come to loath, in a fleeting way, the waste of society. Do we really need Barbie or the umpteen million toys that kids get these days? No, but they're there and there's an entire industry dedicated to making kids want stuff. It all ends up in the bin. The energy and resources from that little lot would be best used for another purpose.

Essentially, churning out shit because you can and because you have to to keep the economy going is a waste of everyone's time, effort and resources... and given the associated social bullshit that accompanies the needs of the economy, I'd rather we tried something grown up.

P.S. you didn't answer the question :shifty:

110% agree. I think anyone with a sense of fairness hates seeing evidence of all the overseas sweatshops that all of the multinational companies are complicit in. You are correct about all the bullshit

I relation to the question Im being dumb in terms of context as Im exhausted. Been answering business e-mails ALL afternoon.

I love the UK in spite of the fact its now well beyond fixable. We need more English immigrants and a lot less or none at all from troublesome / religiously divisive countries.

[Ocean1]

Suffer the smell of 1 shit for the smell of another eh... oooo what a choice.

Exactly. Crap on your benefactors and they'll often suddenly notice that the grass is a fucking sight greener somewhere else. Something every socialist leaning govt to date has desperately tried to ignore.


Coz it costs to run a country.

But it only those that can afford to pay for it eh? About time those paying for it got something for their trouble isn't it?

[Ocean1]

I always find it ironic that people who believe they are losing too much money, because of the needs of the country, leave the very country that made them rich when asked to stump up a little more in the way of taxation. I'd be blaming the wankers for leaving, not the govt that had to make a given financial decision.

That's 'cause you're an ungrateful cunt. You should be asking them how you can convince them to stay, and continue paying for your lunch.

[Robert Taylor]

I'm from the UK. I'm for every required business and citizen on the planet. I agree, there is no perfect system, but there is at least 1 that I know of that would foster "loyalty" through voluntary participation. I am no socialist either, however I understand that no money would mean, no price hikes, no property speculation, no apartheid system and no limit to production of the goods and services that are necessary to run a modern day economy... and beyond.
The money supply cannot exist without speculation. The economy needs money, how else do you put money in consumers pockets in order to buy things that society has decided they really need. I've come to loath, in a fleeting way, the waste of society. Do we really need Barbie or the umpteen million toys that kids get these days? No, but they're there and there's an entire industry dedicated to making kids want stuff. It all ends up in the bin. The energy and resources from that little lot would be best used for another purpose.

Essentially, churning out shit because you can and because you have to to keep the economy going is a waste of everyone's time, effort and resources... and given the associated social bullshit that accompanies the needs of the economy, I'd rather we tried something grown up.

P.S. you didn't answer the question :shifty:

What is especially concerning is that the greatest proportion of the population dont even register their brains into thinking what is actually going on behind all of the facades

Its also rather scary that when you vote its about who you consider to be the best of a bad bunch. Colin Craig and his Conservative party are saying a few things that totally resonate with me personally but I have to consider that my voting is used wisely to help stall what I personally consider a nightmare outcome. I.e a disjointed and ultimately self destructing grouping of the left. There are some good people on the left e.g Damian Oconnor, David Shearer but also some certifiable lunatics

[Ocean1]

It's not a crusade against the successful, they just happen to hold most of the financial wealth.

The fuck it's not. Those "just happening" to hold more than average financial wealth have generally earned it. It's theirs, not available for general consumption by those that perhaps haven't worked as hard.


It's that or you have to borrow. Would you rather put $10 in or would you rather borrow $10 +interest?

Neither. Govt needs to live within their means, if times get tough you don't steal money from the wealthy and you don't borrow it. You spend less.

You can call it austerity if you like, it'd be entirely consistent with your usual vacuous comprehension.

[mashman]

110% agree. I think anyone with a sense of fairness hates seeing evidence of all the overseas sweatshops that all of the multinational companies are complicit in. You are correct about all the bullshit

I relation to the question Im being dumb in terms of context as Im exhausted. Been answering business e-mails ALL afternoon.

I love the UK in spite of the fact its now well beyond fixable. We need more English immigrants and a lot less or none at all from troublesome / religiously divisive countries.

That unfairness only exists for one reason... eh eh eh, he said knowingly.

You need an 'oliday... or a drink. It was in regards to taxation. Boiling down to, we either put in or our govt borrows on our behalf, plus interest.

lol... there's a reason we're here and not over there :yes:... but I do miss the local and those who inhabited it... speshully when the football was on as we didn't have sky :whistle:. Meh, 99% of religious countries contain businessmen much like yourself, main difference being that they smash their heads off of the concrete at time during the day... and wash their feet in the sink at work. Bloke must have had the cleanest feet in the world.

[mashman]

Exactly. Crap on your benefactors and they'll often suddenly notice that the grass is a fucking sight greener somewhere else. Something every socialist leaning govt to date has desperately tried to ignore.

But it only those that can afford to pay for it eh? About time those paying for it got something for their trouble isn't it?

Ahhh yes, yet another beautiful product of the financial economy, the financial leech. They can be ignored if there is nothing for them to leech on to.

That's the way it is, as you would say. Those who pay for it do get something for their trouble. You get what you're willing to pay for. Dunno about you, but I'd like to pay no tax at all................in a society that isn't fucking around the edges.

[mashman]

That's 'cause you're an ungrateful cunt. You should be asking them how you can convince them to stay, and continue paying for your lunch.

I am an ungrateful cunt. Why? Because they pay tax and should therefore be allowed to do as they please? Slippery slope innit?

[mashman]

What is especially concerning is that the greatest proportion of the population dont even register their brains into thinking what is actually going on behind all of the facades

Its also rather scary that when you vote its about who you consider to be the best of a bad bunch. Colin Craig and his Conservative party are saying a few things that totally resonate with me personally but I have to consider that my voting is used wisely to help stall what I personally consider a nightmare outcome. I.e a disjointed and ultimately self destructing grouping of the left. There are some good people on the left e.g Damian Oconnor, David Shearer but also some certifiable lunatics

Why bother? We pay others to look after many things so that we don't waste time. Tis what accountants are for. We're not educated to think so critically, nor do many people want to (:innocent:), yet.

lol, tis why I don't vote. There is absolutely no sense in any of their policies as they maintain the status quo more or less. Enough for some, not so much for others. If labour were serious, they wouldn't have a leader ;)... I shall continue to not vote until the Money Free Party are on the ballot. From what I have seen so far, they are a party that ticks the vast majority of boxes that I require to have ticked before using my vote... and hannibal the cannibal (not Luis Suarez, ugh) could represent that party and I'd still vote for it. Will tick the box with a wry smile as I announce my right to have an opinion that should be listened to because I have voted :killingme

[mashman]

The fuck it's not. Those "just happening" to hold more than average financial wealth have generally earned it. It's theirs, not available for general consumption by those that perhaps haven't worked as hard.

Neither. Govt needs to live within their means, if times get tough you don't steal money from the wealthy and you don't borrow it. You spend less.

You can call it austerity if you like, it'd be entirely consistent with your usual vacuous comprehension.

I understand that. It also goes toward roading n stuff... and those things aren't cheap ya know.

Ahhhh yes, fairytopia.

It's tragic is what it is.

[Ocean1]

Ahhh yes, yet another beautiful product of the financial economy, the financial leech. They can be ignored if there is nothing for them to leech on to.

That's the way it is, as you would say. Those who pay for it do get something for their trouble. You get what you're willing to pay for. Dunno about you, but I'd like to pay no tax at all................in a society that isn't fucking around the edges.

Financial economies produce leeches now?

Shirley you can come up with something better than a bunch of faux clichés? Perhaps not.

[Ocean1]

I am an ungrateful cunt. Why? Because they pay tax and should therefore be allowed to do as they please? Slippery slope innit?

Pretty obvious, you're an ungrateful cunt because you're not grateful for their contribution.

And that only lets anyone do as they please inside your head.

[Ocean1]

I understand that. It also goes toward roading n stuff... and those things aren't cheap ya know.

Ahhhh yes, fairytopia.

It's tragic is what it is.

It goes to a bunch of stuff. Which, when times are hard you do without.

Required ingredient for success, try not to project your fantasies into the real world.

It's an indication you need to live with what you've got is what it is.

[mashman]

Financial economies produce leeches now?

Shirley you can come up with something better than a bunch of faux clichés? Perhaps not.

Yeah, financial ones. They wouldn't exist without it.

I wasted as much energy on it as it warranted.

[mashman]

Pretty obvious, you're an ungrateful cunt because you're not grateful for their contribution.

And that only lets anyone do as they please inside your head.

I'm not grateful for their contribution? News to me.

What?

[mashman]

It goes to a bunch of stuff. Which, when times are hard you do without.

Required ingredient for success, try not to project your fantasies into the real world.

It's an indication you need to live with what you've got is what it is.

Aye, no one should be allowed to have a life if they can't afford to fund it... not really working out too well in general that is it.

No, fairytopia.

No, it's tragic.

[Ocean1]

Yeah, financial ones. They wouldn't exist without it.

Obviously not. They'd be dead. Like most of the rest of the planet.


I wasted as much energy on it as it warranted.

Which is why you'll never be successful in anything you do, you're a lazy cunt. Spending less than you earn is pretty basic, and you can't even get that right.

[Ocean1]

I'm not grateful for their contribution? News to me.

Shouldn't be. Pretty much every statement you make displays a complete lack of gratitude for anything.


What?

Got the world's problems sorted eh? Can't even follow a basic thread.

Try harder you lazy cunt.

[Ocean1]

Aye, no one should be allowed to have a life if they can't afford to fund it... not really working out too well in general that is it.

No, fairytopia.

No, it's tragic.

It's working out fucking brilliantly for the majority that can't be fucked funding their life, not so well for them what have to do it for them.

Suit yourself. Id'a thunk that the tax and spend brigade's decades of spending more than they earn would have demonstrated that don't work worth a shit, but you obviously think it's a great idea.

I guess it is. For leeches.

[mashman]

Obviously not. They'd be dead. Like most of the rest of the planet.

Which is why you'll never be successful in anything you do, you're a lazy cunt. Spending less than you earn is pretty basic, and you can't even get that right.

Bit of a leap there.

:rofl: yeah, that sounds like me... that's uncanny.

[mashman]

Shouldn't be. Pretty much every statement you make displays a complete lack of gratitude for anything.

Got the world's problems sorted eh? Can't even follow a basic thread.

Try harder you lazy cunt.

Oh, so now you're entitled to my gratitude? Heil.

I have a version of it, yes.

No.