MPs on the poverty line

[awa355]

My heart bleeds for these poor souls. Surely there must be something else the taxpayers could be doing to help those in need?

:bs::bs:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10199138/MPs-set-for-perks-boost

[Brian d marge]

Dude I ve sooo got to get into this politics lark

There seems no way you can screw it up

Vote for me , I wont do a thing, I promise

Vote for me ... I spend money

Vote for me: I ve got a nice smile ( Im lying)

Vote for me :I like cheap Chinese hookers

Vote for me: I have the internet .....

Stephen

[unstuck]

As long as people keep acting like sheep, they are going to get fleeced. Rebellion I tell you, it is the only way you can feel better about this bullshit called politics.:devil2:

[mashman]

Such an unappreciated job.

[Akzle]

jews
.

[gjm]

UK pols just voted themselves another double-digit pay rise - this time, 11%.

Nurses got 0.5-1%.

Thieves.

[unstuck]

jews
.

:headbang::headbang:<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/H8ULIw0Zgaw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[mashman]

UK pols just voted themselves another double-digit pay rise - this time, 11%.

Nurses got 0.5-1%.

Thieves.

Why give someone a payrise when you're about to sell them... out. They're selling the NHS, bonuses all round.

[R650R]

Rebellion I tell you, it is the only way you can feel better about this bullshit called politics.:devil2:

If you study history though you'll see a slight problem. Revolution usually ushers in a new flavour of nutbar, usually worst than the first one. Typically its 300 years till you get a good balanced peaceful society again.
Just look at the type of people who volunteer for board of trustees at school, work health and safety committees, club committee memebers (except at MCC's ;) ) and you'll get my idea, you just get governed by the next level of control freaks. Best to stick with the devil you know and existing work arounds for problems...

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/11/24/world/jpegypt1/jpegypt1-articleLarge.jpg

[Brian d marge]

A long time ago. Hunter gatherers were a well developed , sharing society ,

They hunted by the strong moonlight and rested for the other half of the month

Hunting was fun and ALL the community shared

Women and men had clearly defined roles and every one was a ease

Then came the end of the ice age and pissing around with small game was a pain in the arse and the big animals werent there soooooo,,,,,


We grew weed

With the need to improve YOUR field , came the concept of ownership and with possession came greed and war

Then we just refined greed and war until its pretty much perfected now .......

Sooo

If I can get me telly via the Mp list , or even Mp consultant .... Then I might have to shopping with me samik sage recurve

Stephen

[unstuck]

If you study history though you'll see a slight problem. Revolution usually ushers in a new flavour of nutbar, usually worst than the first one. Typically its 300 years till you get a good balanced peaceful society again.
Just look at the type of people who volunteer for board of trustees at school, work health and safety committees, club committee memebers (except at MCC's ;) ) and you'll get my idea, you just get governed by the next level of control freaks. Best to stick with the devil you know and existing work arounds for problems...



“Only a fool learns from his own mistakes. The wise man learns from the mistakes of others.”

There are different types of rebellion, total anarchy will not serve the masses. Awaken people to their own true potential, and they cease to be sheep.:devil2:

[awa355]

Dude I ve sooo got to get into this politics lark

There seems no way you can screw it up

Vote for me , I wont do a thing, I promise

Vote for me ... I spend money

Vote for me: I ve got a nice smile ( Im lying)

Vote for me :I like cheap Chinese hookers

Vote for me: I have the internet .....

Stephen

And dont forget, you are allowed to forget anything that might be at all unethical, dishonest, or likely to come back and bite you.

On a more serious note, a backbencher gets $150,000 a year. plus a $28,000 accommodation allowance ( if they choose to live in Welly ). What is the retirement pension worth a year?

[unstuck]

What is the retirement pension worth a year?

Fuck all, not 28 grand a year anyway.

[Brian d marge]

http://hisvorpal.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/schultz.jpg

but ......


<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/xQaMdGacMxE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>


Stephen

find me at .....https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQO_Zcu7ZdlzFbs3xlf-Bglt-ORR-T-8CFWN8Hu4t3rd9PZkrzp

[pete376403]

I would so like to build one of these and park it in the grounds of parliament - just to get them thinking a bit...

http://www.guillotine.dk/pages/Construction.html

[Winston001]

What is the retirement pension worth a year?

For most of us including short term MPs about $15,000/yr. Less individually if you are a couple.

[Brian d marge]

I would so like to build one of these and park it in the grounds of parliament - just to get them thinking a bit...

http://www.guillotine.dk/pages/Construction.html
even if we sent them a nice letter reminding them the fate of the last lot
a mean a nice letter

just stating we are getting pissed off and would like toremind the honourable mp that this could be his

or her fate

jacques the 3rd from the wine shop

Sent from my SC-01F using Tapatalk

[Bikemad]

my favourite MP.......sort of

http://www.whittakers.co.nz/site-media/advertisements/videos/Member.mp4

[Voltaire]

I was dialled in to a corporate meeting in Aussie today.... an hour of droning....then hours of pointless paperwork.....I could not be an MP, it takes a special type to like committees, meetings, listening to waffle, writing bollocks, reading pages and pages of submissions. This is why we are run by them.

[Laava]

Why give someone a payrise when you're about to sell them... out. They're selling the NHS, bonuses all round.

Fuck me! So will my NI card be useless now?

[Brian d marge]

Fuck me! So will my NI card be useless now?

yup they are trying to off load the NHS as quickly as possible

have a look at half the british papers for NHS slagging .....

Stephen

[mashman]

Fuck me! So will my NI card be useless now?

Nah, you and the govt will split the new bill. Fairs fair like.

[awa355]

I would so like to build one of these and park it in the grounds of parliament - just to get them thinking a bit...

http://www.guillotine.dk/pages/Construction.html

They wont buy the guillotine on govt grounds, but why not this. A caravan park.

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/awa355/mp3.png

They could share caravans with other celebrities, like Millie Holmes.

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/awa355/mp4.png

[Scuba_Steve]

Dude I ve sooo got to get into this politics lark

There seems no way you can screw it up

Vote for me , I wont do a thing, I promise

Vote for me ... I spend money

Vote for me: I ve got a nice smile ( Im lying)

Vote for me :I like cheap Chinese hookers

Vote for me: I have the internet .....

Stephen

Sweet you've got my vote :2thumbsup



As long as people keep acting like sheep, they are going to get fleeced. Rebellion I tell you, it is the only way you can feel better about this bullshit called politics.:devil2:

& we all get to have mohowks :Punk:

[willytheekid]

And who exactly do they serve again?

remember...your votes important NZ, cos it determines the next lot of self serving, lying, bludgers! (there ALL the same...in it for them!...not the people of NZ!)

[Akzle]

They wont buy the guillotine on govt grounds, but why not this. A caravan park.

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/awa355/mp3.png


hey! you keep off of a my lawn!





(gremlin, it wouldn't work if the image wasn't there)

[unstuck]

(gremlin, it wouldn't work if the image wasn't there)

Ass kisser.:killingme:killingme

[mada]

Did someone say gremlin?

http://thedailyblog.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/1911775_647530278615768_711901743_n.png

[mada]

In all honesty though, paying them more will be good for economy as it will result in a greater "trickle down" - nothing like a waterfall of urine after drinking free booze eh...

http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz335/sophie_sadie/and-then-we-told-them-the-wealth-would-trickle-down.jpg

[Akzle]

Ass kisser.:killingme:killingme

the infracto-fag strikes frequently. and with the amount of cookies jantard has to my credit, if i get more, i'll be too fat to give people rapeutation, and i love rapeutation.

[unstuck]

the infracto-fag strikes frequently. and with the amount of cookies jantard has to my credit, if i get more, i'll be too fat to give people rapeutation, and i love rapeutation.

Full of justification for your ass kissing, makes you a desperate ass kisser.:2thumbsup

[Akzle]

Full of justification for your ass kissing, makes you a desperate ass kisser.:2thumbsup

fuken jew.

[unstuck]

fuken jew.

In the words of the great Suicidal Tendencies..."Sticks and stones may break some bones, but a 357 gonna blow ya damn head off". :ar15:

[avgas]

And who exactly do they serve again?

remember...your votes important NZ, cos it determines the next lot of self serving, lying, bludgers! (there ALL the same...in it for them!...not the people of NZ!)
Voting counts towards showing you're situation awareness, just like masturbation proves you're a good lover.
I'd vote for anyone who changes the system. I'm done voting for others to do my work/thinking for me. A variations of the words of the law.

"You have the right to remain silent, but anything you do say will be held for you in the decision of how the country moves forward. If you do not have a brain, a brain will be appointed for you....."

We need a system like that.

[Brian d marge]

Now this is how you do it when you get caught with ya snout in the trough !!!

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/t3pZMA5275M" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


looks like an ACT party political broadcast to me

Stephen

[Winston001]

Personally I'm not bothered. Being an MP is an awful job. You are never right. You are available and abused 24 hours a days 7 days a week. Your children are bullied at school. Your wife is sneered at in the supermarket.

And after three years you can be on the street looking for a new job.

Nasty nasty stuff.

Farrg that.

[Brian d marge]

Personally I'm not bothered. Being an MP is an awful job. You are never right. You are available and abused 24 hours a days 7 days a week. Your children are bullied at school. Your wife is sneered at in the supermarket.

And after three years you can be on the street looking for a new job.

Nasty nasty stuff.

Farrg that.
not much differeent from me day job , except its only 90 day and you can be out on ya ear

at least being an mp ya make some coin and if play that game right you can ride that gravy train to the grave

Stephen

[mada]

Now this is how you do it when you get caught with ya snout in the trough !!!


looks like an ACT party political broadcast to me

Stephen

:killingme:killingme:killingme

What had the guy actually done?

[mada]

Personally I'm not bothered. Being an MP is an awful job. You are never right. You are available and abused 24 hours a days 7 days a week. Your children are bullied at school. Your wife is sneered at in the supermarket.

And after three years you can be on the street looking for a new job.

Nasty nasty stuff.

Farrg that.

Compared to cops and paramedics they got it pretty farkin easy though.

Most of the time after quitting they end up getting appointed to some govt. operated board.

Some of them do work bloody hard though - Paul Goldsmith for example.

[Brian d marge]

:killingme:killingme:killingme

What had the guy actually done?

snout in trough with no proof of expenditure .......

As wife said , if he had just said .... yes , pissed truck load of public money up against the wall ! no one would have noticed !


Stephen

[avgas]

Personally I'm not bothered. Being an MP is an awful job. You are never right. You are available and abused 24 hours a days 7 days a week. Your children are bullied at school. Your wife is sneered at in the supermarket and after three years you can be on the street looking for a new job.
How on earth do they live? I mean interest payments alone would only account for $20K / year, and then there is the ex-MP income of $37K / year......that's only $57K per year......for the rest of their lives. That's only 300% unemployment benefit rate.

[unstuck]

Fuck em all..

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/ghzM1iUX9mU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>:Punk::Punk:

I don't give a fuck about politics, I hope I'm understood. Because the politics are boring, they never did us any good. They can't decide over anything, there's nothing they can arrange. It's only when the people stand up for their rights then something will change.

[MIXONE]

Personally I'm not bothered. Being an MP is an awful job. You are never right. You are available and abused 24 hours a days 7 days a week. Your children are bullied at school. Your wife is sneered at in the supermarket.

And after three years you can be on the street looking for a new job.

Nasty nasty stuff.

Farrg that.

Wasn't it Mark Twain who said something like "only those who don't want the job should be voted in as politicians".
You fit the bill to a T.

[Brian d marge]

Fuck em all..



I don't give a fuck about politics, I hope I'm understood. Because the politics are boring, they never did us any good. They can't decide over anything, there's nothing they can arrange. It's only when the people stand up for their rights then something will change.

must spread em........

Stephen

[unstuck]

Slave


Earth to ashes, buildings to dust
A radioactive burning crust
The meek shall inherit all that is left
Inherit the Earth, a living death

From the cradle to the grave
You made yourself the system's slave

Acid rain, rocks on fire!
Poison clouds, gods a liar
There's nothing left, for the meek
The past is gone the future is bleak

From the cradle to the grave
You made yourself the system's slave

Evil systems, government control
Are to blame for our downfall
There's no umbrella against the rain
Destroy the power, break your chain!

[Robert Taylor]

My heart bleeds for these poor souls. Surely there must be something else the taxpayers could be doing to help those in need?

:bs::bs:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10199138/MPs-set-for-perks-boost

Indeed, AND MMP MAGNIFIED THE PROBLEM

[Akzle]

Indeed, AND MMP MAGNIFIED THE PROBLEM

you voted for it

[Robert Taylor]

you voted for it

It is better to keep your mouth shut and to be thought of as an idiot than to open it wide and remove all doubt. Given the nature of so many of your nonsensical posts you would do well to heed such advice.

My alzheimers has not afflicted me so badly yet that I cannot recall that I very emphatically voted for FIRST PAST THE POST, and did so again when there was a further referendum attached to our voting papers.

[Akzle]

It is better to keep your mouth shut and to be thought of as an idiot than to open it wide and remove all doubt. Given the nature of so many of your nonsensical posts you would do well to heed such advice.

My alzheimers has not afflicted me so badly yet that I cannot recall that I very emphatically voted for FIRST PAST THE POST, and did so again when there was a further referendum attached to our voting papers.

oh you poor, old, white, ignorant git.

Well, die happy, knowing you did your best and the democratic majority knows better than you.

[Robert Taylor]

oh you poor, old, white, ignorant git.

Well, die happy, knowing you did your best and the democratic majority knows better than you.

So going by the demeanour of your speech you support apartheid, I thought as much. Im all for treating all races living within this country equally and with respect.

In spite of the fact that the majority of the population ( approximately 70% ) are descended from primarily the United Kingdom. And most of those people will be sick to death of paying taxes to fund the ongoing, never ending gravy train of historical grievances, especially where as has happened a lot of history has been cannibalised to suit those ends.

[Akzle]

So going by the demeanour of your speech you support apartheid, I thought as much. Im all for treating all races living within this country equally and with respect.

In spite of the fact that the majority of the population ( approximately 70% ) are descended from primarily the United Kingdom. And most of those people will be sick to death of paying taxes to fund the ongoing, never ending gravy train of historical grievances, especially where as has happened a lot of history has been cannibalised to suit those ends.

oh you poor, old, white,
ignorant git...

[Winston001]

... and then there is the ex-MP income of $37K / year......that's only $57K per year......for the rest of their lives. That's only 300% unemployment benefit rate.

Sorry Avgas but not so. In fact its worse than I thought for an MP who retires or isn't re-elected.

The old rule was if an MP served 9 years in Parliament s/he was entitled to a pension for life at a similar amount to the ordinary MPs salary. But that stopped after 1992.

These days they just have Kiwisaver.

[Brian d marge]

Sorry Avgas but not so. In fact its worse than I thought for an MP who retires or isn't re-elected.

The old rule was if an MP served 9 years in Parliament s/he was entitled to a pension for life at a similar amount to the ordinary MPs salary. But that stopped after 1992.

These days they just have Kiwisaver.

They are fked then aint they


better make sht loads of money in the 3 years available to em

Stephen

[SPman]

So going by the demeanour of your speech you support apartheid, I thought as much. Im all for treating all races living within this country equally and with respect.

My wife has similar views, and in a way, I agree, but,a cohesive society is not like a business and different approaches are often required, but...oops, you admire Thatcher who said, "there is no society"......


In spite of the fact that the majority of the population ( approximately 70% ) are descended from primarily the United Kingdom. And most of those people will be sick to death of paying taxes to fund the ongoing, never ending gravy train of historical grievances, especially where as has happened a lot of history has been cannibalised to suit those ends.
If they'd settled the court cases when they were brought ( many dating back to the early 1870s), fair enough. But by obfuscating, refusing to hear the cases at the time or pushing them aside, and being honorable people, the day of reckoning has to come, it just gets worse when that time does come. In historical terms, the amount of the claims have been diminished quite considerably from what they were, so, you could say that modern folk are getting a bargain. If you think avarice plays a part, well, they learned well from those who grabbed the land in the first place.

Of course, we could just be a pack of cunts like the Yanks, etc, and ignore any and every treaty and claim............

[Banditbandit]

So going by the demeanour of your speech you support apartheid, I thought as much. Im all for treating all races living within this country equally and with respect.



You're idea of treating people equally is to treat them all as if they are white .. New Zealand is not like that. I would not treat you as I treat other Māori, why should you treat us as if we were white people?

And an apartheid system? What do you think we have now?

I would worry aout your grandchildren ...

When they go to school they will nto be well-served and there is a high chance the education system will fail them badly and they will disengage at primary school ...



Currently, nearly one in five Māori children will not have achieved the basic literacy and numeracy standards expected of them when they leave primary school, and less than half of Māori youth will leave secondary school with NCEA Level 2 or better. Over a third of Māori students will leave school without any qualification at all.
Despite this, the Education Review Office’s (ERO) 2010 report found that a large number of schools did
not review their performance around Māori student achievement and did not make use of the evidence about
what works to promote success for Māori students. Boards need that information to make informed decisions and
set clear directions for Māori education success.

http://www.minedu.govt.nz/~/media/MinEdu/Files/Boards/EffectiveGovernance/SupportingEducationSuccessAsMaori.pdf

Your schooling system fails us ...

As your grandchildren get older, hope they do not get prostate cancer - if they do there is a 25% higher chance that a doctor will miss it.



The study found that Māori men were significantly less likely to be screened and tested than non-Māori; that Māori men have an overall lower rate of prostate cancer than non-Māori men, but their mortality is much higher with Māori men being more likely to die with and of prostate cancer compared to non-Māori men.

https://www.auckland.ac.nz/en/about/news-events-and-notices/news/news-2014/07/prostate-cancer-care-worse-for-mori-and-rural-men.html

This report says that if they go to the doctors, then they are less likely to get a correct diagnosis.

Doctors don't care??? Just one example of how your health system fails us. No wonder we want our own .. we can't trust yours. I hope we have a good one when your grandchildren get older.

Your grandchildren can expect to live a shorter life than their Pākehā counterparts.


In 2006, life expectancy at birth was 70.4 years for Māori males and 75.1 years for Māori females, while life expectancy at birth for non-Māori males was 79.0 years and for non-Māori females 83.0 years. Overall, in 2006, Māori life expectancy at birth was at least eight years less than that for non-Māori for both genders.

http://www.health.govt.nz/nz-health-statistics/health-statistics-and-data-sets/maori-health-data-and-stats/tatau-kahukura-maori-health-chart-book/nga-mana-hauora-tutohu-health-status-indicators/life-expectancy-birth

And crime .. if they have contact with the police they are more likely to be arerested than their non-Maori counter-parts, and when in court and more likely to be convicted than non-Maori, and the serntences will be harsher.


When self-reported offending (and social background) was held constant, Māori offenders appeared still to be twice as likely to be subject to Police attention, relative to non-Māori offenders.

Independently of self-declared cannabis use, Māori were more likely to be arrested and convicted for cannabis use. Previous police record, self-reported crime, and being male also increased the likelihood of
arrest and conviction. Fergusson et al found this “consistent with a labelling theory
perspective

A considerable number of arrests follow from Police stopping and questioning individuals in public places. From the perspective of “amplification”, differences in apprehension could therefore result from some bias in
policing practice.

Evidence does exist to indicate that apprehension rates do not simply reflect actual offending behaviour of persons in the community. Instead there is some support for the notion that the interactions between Police and Māori on the “front-line”, as well as social interactions within families or communities, lead to an increased probability of Māori offenders being subject to criminal apprehension, independently of rates of actual offending. Some form of bias appears to be occurring – the precise magnitude of the effect, however, is less clear.

A similar difference occurs with the most severe penalty, imprisonment. Figure 5 below shows that, when sentenced, Māori were more likely to receive a prison sentence. Between 11% and 13% of convicted Māori receive sentences of imprisonment, as opposed to 7 - 9% of Europeans, a statistically significant difference.

as described in Section 2 of this report, a number of studies have shown
evidence of some of greater likelihood, associated only with ethnicity, for Māori
offenders to:
• have police contact
• be charged
• lack legal representation
• not be granted bail
• plead guilty
• be convicted
• be sentenced to non-monetary penalties
• be denied release to Home Detention.


I have taken a selection of paragraphs from this report http://www.corrections.govt.nz/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/672574/Over-representation-of-Maori-in-the-criminal-justice-system.pdf

The authors admit that there are a range of factors, not just ethnicity, but you should read it all and then worry for the future of your grandchildren.

For all these reasons, and a host of other indicators, for the future of your grandchildren, you should be very worried about them and supporting our moves to improve the lot of Māori in this country ...

[oldrider]

You're idea of treating people equally is to treat them all as if they are white .. New Zealand is not like that. I would not treat you as I treat other Māori, why should you treat us as if we were white people?

And an apartheid system? What do you think we have now?

I wold worry aout your grandchildren ...

When they go to school they will nto be well-served and there is a high chance the education system will fail them badly and they will disengage at primary school ...




http://www.minedu.govt.nz/~/media/MinEdu/Files/Boards/EffectiveGovernance/SupportingEducationSuccessAsMaori.pdf

Your schooling system fails us ...

As your grandchildren get older, hope they do not get prostate cancer - if they do there is a 25% higher chance that a doctor will miss it.



https://www.auckland.ac.nz/en/about/news-events-and-notices/news/news-2014/07/prostate-cancer-care-worse-for-mori-and-rural-men.html

This report says that if they go to the doctors, then they are less likely to get a correct diagnosis.

Doctors don't care??? Just one example of how your health system fails us. No wonder we want our own .. we can't trust yours. I hope we have a good one when your grandchildren get older.

Your grandchildren can expect to live a shorter life than their Pākehā counterparts.



http://www.health.govt.nz/nz-health-statistics/health-statistics-and-data-sets/maori-health-data-and-stats/tatau-kahukura-maori-health-chart-book/nga-mana-hauora-tutohu-health-status-indicators/life-expectancy-birth

And crime .. if they have contact with the police they are more likely to be arerested than their non-Maori counter-parts, and when in court and more likely to be convicted than non-Maori, and the serntences will be harsher.



I have taken a selection of paragraphs from this report http://www.corrections.govt.nz/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/672574/Over-representation-of-Maori-in-the-criminal-justice-system.pdf

The authors admit that there are a range of factors, not just ethnicity, but you should read it all and then worry for the future of your grandchildren.

For all these reasons, and a host of other indicators, for the future of your grandchildren, you should be very worried about them and supporting our moves to improve the lot of Māori in this country ...

With all due respect a bit more "we" in your personal thinking and expression would go a long way towards unification of spirit in this country!

Michael Jackson's song "the man in the mirror" springs to mind as something all New zealanders are a bit short on. Time we stopped all that "them and us" shit! :yes: .

[oldrider]

Personally I'm not bothered. Being an MP is an awful job. You are never right. You are available and abused 24 hours a days 7 days a week. Your children are bullied at school. Your wife is sneered at in the supermarket.

And after three years you can be on the street looking for a new job.

Nasty nasty stuff.

Farrg that.

They could take a good look here and start doing something positive about changing all that: http://www.positivemoney.org/

Maybe then they wouldn't have such a bleak future and niether would we FFS! :hitcher:

[Banditbandit]

With all due respect a bit more "we" in your personal thinking and expression would go a long way towards unification of spirit in this country!

Michael Jackson's song "the man in the mirror" springs to mind as something all New zealanders are a bit short on. Time we stopped all that "them and us" shit! :yes: .

Mate, I agree with you - but when you look at how the Health system, the Education system and the Police and Criminal Justice system deal with Māori as opposed to non-Maori it is hard to say "Us" in the way you mean.

I didn't add that Māori life expectancy rates are about 10 years lower than non-Maori ... That's huge ... Maori male life expectancy is 70.4 years .. for non-Maori 79 years. Maori women it's 75.1 years while for non-Maori women it is 83 years.

All these sorts of things are a hidden apartheid .. and it makes it hard for Maori to say "us" and include all New Zealanders ...

So .. when are we going to sort out the issues in the Healthy and Education system? When are Maori going to court going to stand the same chance of going to jail/some other sentences as non-Maori? When are Maori going to get full benefits from our education system?

When are we going to make improvements for all New Zealanders???
Then I might be able to say "Us" ...

And sitting along side that are the large number of non-Maori who make just that distinction.

We have a long history of assimilation people into Māori culture - the Europeans only have a history of imposing their system on Māori.

I know you have said this before ... and I understand your position. We (Māori) do not feel part of a society that, in comparison to how it treats non-Māori, treats us this badly ..

[Brian d marge]

With all due respect a bit more "we" in your personal thinking and expression would go a long way towards unification of spirit in this country!

Michael Jackson's song "the man in the mirror" springs to mind as something all New zealanders are a bit short on. Time we stopped all that "them and us" shit! :yes: .
Dont know how to bling from phone

Stephen

[pete376403]

I didn't add that Māori life expectancy rates are about 10 years lower than non-Maori ... That's huge ... Maori male life expectancy is 70.4 years .. for non-Maori 79 years. Maori women it's 75.1 years while for non-Maori women it is 83 years.

I know you have said this before ... and I understand your position. We (Māori) do not feel part of a society that, in comparison to how it treats non-Māori, treats us this badly ..

Sorry but maori treat themselves pretty badly too - look at the stats on smoking, drinking, unhealthy eating (don't tell me that feeding the family maccas or kfc is simply due to costs)
eg:

In 2009 the current smoking rate for Maori was 44 percent, still significantly higher than for non-Maori (18 percent) for
both males and females.
• Maori in all age groups had higher smoking rates than non-Maori.
• Maori non-smokers were more likely than non-Maori to be to be
exposed to second-hand smoke in their homes and cars.

http://www.health.govt.nz/system/files/documents/publications/maori-smoking-tobacco-use-2011.pdf

[oldrider]

We (Māori) do not feel part of a society that, in comparison to how it treats non-Māori, treats us this badly ..

We are not the same even as we mix and blend we are still not the same and probably never will be but we must respect each others differences!

The only way to get respect is to earn it!

IMPO (which is only my opinion) I think Maori began to earn respect by getting out from under the humiliating Labour party apron and participating in governing the country in their own right through the advent of the Maori Party!

Sure it is a bit separatist or racist but who gives a stuff it is a beginning that is long overdue and a step in the right direction, Maori expression about Maori needs!

Pissing in the tent on their own terms is far superior to pissing on a piece of shit over behind the Labour party long drop ever was ... respect earned IMHO!

IMHO Hone Harawera has done a huge disservice to Maori especially when you think about how he has sold his soul to $$$$ power of the fat interloper and friends!

Mana? ... What fucking Mana?

I have four grandchildren, two Maori and two Pakeha, I want them to be seen to be and to be treated as equals in every possible way in this country of "ours"!

It wont be easy but it will happen if we think about it positively and it is well known that what we think about will happen ... eventually! :yes:

[Brian d marge]

Having just returned from nz i can say that kfc and fish and chip were the cheapest options
A feed of fish and chips went quiye a long way for our family of 4
And that was around 10 dollars

[unstuck]

A feed of fish and chips went quiye a long way for our family of 4
And that was around 10 dollars

$10 WTF, did you order sprats and peelings?

[Banditbandit]

Sorry but maori treat themselves pretty badly too - look at the stats on smoking, drinking, unhealthy eating (don't tell me that feeding the family maccas or kfc is simply due to costs)
eg:

In 2009 the current smoking rate for Maori was 44 percent, still significantly higher than for non-Maori (18 percent) for
both males and females.
• Maori in all age groups had higher smoking rates than non-Maori.
• Maori non-smokers were more likely than non-Maori to be to be
exposed to second-hand smoke in their homes and cars.

http://www.health.govt.nz/system/files/documents/publications/maori-smoking-tobacco-use-2011.pdf

So you think that gives non-Māori the right to treat us badly?

[Brian d marge]

$10 WTF, did you order sprats and peelings?


I lemon fish and 3 scoops

Stephen

[pete376403]

So you think that gives non-Māori the right to treat us badly?

Not at all, but you can't trot out how Maori die ten years earlier without accepting that some of the blame lies with themselves.

[bogan]

When are Maori going to court going to stand the same chance of going to jail/some other sentences as non-Maori?

Two part answer, if you're maori royalty apparently it doesn't matter cos you ain't going to jail anyway. But primarily the answer is, when they stop nicking kiwi's shit.

Quit with all this racist bullshit BB, its not a good look, and doesn't help your cause at all.

[Banditbandit]

OK .. so it's OK for many of you to whinge about how many Maori are in the courts .. but when I raise other issues surrounding that I get called racist ????

Just part of the oppressors bullshit ..

[bogan]

OK .. so it's OK for many of you to whinge about how many Maori are in the courts .. but when I raise other issues surrounding that I get called racist ????

Just part of the oppressors bullshit ..

Have I whinged about how many Maori are in the courts?

When raising racial issues you gotta use kid gloves; a free hint, words like 'apartheid' are not appropriate despite how attention grabbing it might be. It is also helpful to show your working, like how did you come to the conclusion Maori don't get treated the same as kiwis by the courts?

[Brian d marge]

one nation under one groove .........

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/5Fn0pl0oxaw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Stephen

[Banditbandit]

Have I whinged about how many Maori are in the courts?

I did not say "everyone" ..


When raising racial issues you gotta use kid gloves;

No-one else seems to take that approach here ..


a free hint, words like 'apartheid' are not appropriate despite how attention grabbing it might be.

That's your side .. from this side it is quite appropriate - there is structural apartheid in Godzone ... it might not be legalized as in SA .. but it is certainly there ... Only one culture matters ...


It is also helpful to show your working, like how did you come to the conclusion Maori don't get treated the same as kiwis by the courts?

Did you even read the links I posted? One of them did just that ..

[Ocean1]

And an apartheid system? What do you think we have now?


A system that provides more for Maori than any other ethnic group in the country.

Now, did you want to talk about the provision of those ethnically restricted services, or did you want to talk about the resulting outcomes?

[bogan]

I did not say "everyone" ..



No-one else seems to take that approach here ..



That's your side .. from this side it is quite appropriate - there is structural apartheid in Godzone ... it might not be legalized as in SA .. but it is certainly there ... Only one culture matters ...



Did you even read the links I posted? One of them did just that ..

No but you said many of you; heavily implying if not outright stating I was one of the whingers.

So what, you're trying to effect change right? step up your game then.

It isn't. The only legally sanctioned evidence of 'apartied' in this country is in ways which benefit Maori; like Maori only seats in parliament, Maori specific handouts/scholarships/treat settlements etc.

Not really, here is the conclusion

"The conclusion of this part of
the report was that, as a consequence of being exposed to a range of risk factors in
social, economic and family circumstances, the over-representation of Māori in
criminal justice statistics reasonably accurately mirrors the extent of criminal
involvement amongst Māori, particularly younger Māori males. Those life
circumstances most often associated with offending are, for a range of reasons, more
likely to affect Māori families."

So you can fuck right off with your reverse racism claims of persecuted minority's by the justice system.

[Banditbandit]

No but you said many of you; heavily implying if not outright stating I was one of the whingers.

No ... you're reading too much into my words ...

[QUOTE]Not really, here is the conclusion

"The conclusion of this part of
the report was that, as a consequence of being exposed to a range of risk factors in
social, economic and family circumstances, the over-representation of Māori in
criminal justice statistics reasonably accurately mirrors the extent of criminal
involvement amongst Māori, particularly younger Māori males. Those life
circumstances most often associated with offending are, for a range of reasons, more
likely to affect Māori families."

So you can fuck right off with your reverse racism claims of persecuted minority's by the justice system.

I'm not suggesting that the arrest and conviction rates do NOT reflect crime rates .. no argument from me about that ...


Evidence does exist to indicate that apprehension rates do not
simply reflect actual offending behaviour of persons in the community. Instead there
is some support for the notion that the interactions between Police and Māori on the
“front-line”, as well as social interactions within families or communities, lead to an
increased probability of Māori offenders being subject to criminal apprehension,
independently of rates of actual offending. Some form of bias appears to be
occurring – the precise magnitude of the effect, however, is less clear.

This conclusion, from a different section, suggests that Maori are treated differently by the police and courts ..

[bogan]

No ... you're reading too much into my words ...



I'm not suggesting that the arrest and conviction rates do NOT reflect crime rates .. no argument from me about that ...



This conclusion, from a different section, suggests that Maori are treated differently by the police and courts ..

I'm reading your words, you're just shit at writing them it seems.

So arrest and conviction rates do reflect crime rates, yet you also say they are treated differently by police and courts? Does that just mean they are letting whitey off heaps? The bias could easily be social (in fact that is what was written in the conclusion). The thing that strikes me as obvious, is to treat all kiwis as equals, so any social bias can be equalised out too.

[Banditbandit]

I'm reading your words, you're just shit at writing them it seems.

So arrest and conviction rates do reflect crime rates, yet you also say they are treated differently by police and courts? Does that just mean they are letting whitey off heaps? The bias could easily be social (in fact that is what was written in the conclusion). The thing that strikes me as obvious, is to treat all kiwis as equals, so any social bias can be equalised out too.

Oooo .. you are nearly there - what do you suggest should happen so that "any social bias can be equalised out too"?

[bogan]

Oooo .. you are nearly there - what do you suggest should happen so that "any social bias can be equalised out too"?

Start with one of the most visible ones, remove Maori only seats in parliament; fast track all treaty claims/settlements done by 2020. Same date by which any govt sanctioned benefits/handouts are equal based on race etc. No doubt you'd have some more to add from a different perspective; but since I'm nearly there, no doubt you would agree with those ones for a start?

[Banditbandit]

Start with one of the most visible ones, remove Maori only seats in parliament;

Not too sure about this one .. but fix all the others and I might agree



fast track all treaty claims/settlements done by 2020.

Love to mate ... we are all sick of the holdups ...



Same date by which any govt sanctioned benefits/handouts are equal based on race etc.

I Agree. NAME THEM !!!



No doubt you'd have some more to add from a different perspective; but since I'm nearly there, no doubt you would agree with those ones for a start?

Yeah - I do agree with a couple. Here's a couple more

Cultural classrooms that replicate equity across both cultures, using appropriate cultural pedagogies ... (not asking for more money - 15% of the education vote will do. )

Cultural-based health services that replicate for Māori culture the current Pākehā models. (Not asking for more money - 15% of the health vote will do)

[bogan]

Not too sure about this one .. but fix all the others and I might agree




Love to mate ... we are all sick of the holdups ...




I Agree. NAME THEM !!!




Yeah - I do agree with a couple. Here's a couple more

Cultural classrooms that replicate equity across both cultures, using appropriate cultural pedagogies ... (not asking for more money - 15% of the education vote will do. )

Cultural-based health services that replicate for Māori culture the current Pākehā models. (Not asking for more money - 15% of the health vote will do)

Why not too sure about that one? why does one racial subset of society deserve an earmarked position inf govt when all the others have to get there on merit alone?

Maori only scholarships is the one that come to mind.

Cultural equity? Classrooms a pretty culture neutral if you ask me; and what do you mean 15% of education/health vote? is this another thing we must earmark for one racial subset while not offering the same to others?

[Ocean1]

Cultural classrooms that replicate equity across both cultures, using appropriate cultural pedagogies ... (not asking for more money - 15% of the education vote will do. )

Cultural-based health services that replicate for Māori culture the current Pākehā models. (Not asking for more money - 15% of the health vote will do)

What percentage of the health budget is currently spent on Maori?

Allow me: You don't know. You can't know, because no such data is collected. It's not collected because the industry's cultural safety policies forbid it. Want a clue? Visit an Emergency Department. Any time, anywhere in NZ, and do a head count.

What you may know is that there are both Maori and Pacific specific Health professional training courses and health qualifications. They're funded at enormously higher levels than the almost identical original qualifications on which they were based. I'd like to say they produce health professionals better qualified to serve the culture's they're designed exclusively to serve, but as the course entry criteria, course content and pass criteria all represent inferior professional technical qualities I can't see how they can.

Now, rather than blame the "Pakeha system" for failing Maori why don't you ask yourself what actually causes the shortfall in Maori health metrics? Because arbitrarily insisting on equity of outcomes and demanding enough of a share of resources to make it so is utter nonsense.

[Banditbandit]

What percentage of the health budget is currently spent on Maori?

Allow me: You don't know. You can't know, because no such data is collected. It's not collected because the industry's cultural safety policies forbid it. Want a clue? Visit an Emergency Department. Any time, anywhere in NZ, and do a head count.

Yes - you are correct - there is no compilation of those figures. That has bugger all to do with my point. My point is the money is not spent in ways that helps us - it is concentrated in the European-derived culture's forms f health measures.


What you may know is that there are both Maori and Pacific specific Health professional training courses and health qualifications. They're funded at enormously higher levels than the almost identical original qualifications on which they were based.

You are so wrong. I am currently involved in developing just such a qualification, and no, it is funded at exactly the same levels. I am sure that you can search the TEC website to see the funding categories for yourself - there are NO separate funding categories for Maori and Pasifika health programmes as opposed to other programmes.


I'd like to say they produce health professionals better qualified to serve the culture's they're designed exclusively to serve, but as the course entry criteria, course content and pass criteria all represent inferior professional technical qualities I can't see how they can.

Show me just show me - because as far as I know that is simply not true - so if you think you can show me the entry criteria of such a programme, compared to the others, then show me .. I will need proof of that, because my proofs are already there ..

Entry criteria are controlled and approved by NZQA in the ITP/Wananga sector and by Q-apps in the University sector. For health programmes there are professional bodies (Nursing Council, etc) who also approve entry criteria. Substandard entry criteria will not get approved and will not get Government funded.


Now, rather than blame the "Pakeha system" for failing Maori why don't you ask yourself what actually causes the shortfall in Maori health metrics? Because arbitrarily insisting on equity of outcomes and demanding enough of a share of resources to make it so is utter nonsense.


You miss my point - yes, we do have poor health outcomes - there is no disputing that - and those factors are part of our issues.

My point is that some of those outcomes are the result of people not wanting to go to mainstream doctors, hospitals and heath centres. First of all, it is not hard to demonstrate that they fail us. The stats I put up for the increased rate of misdiagnosis of prostate cancer in Māori men who DO go to the doctor is 25% higher than for the rest of the population ... how can you suggest that these doctors treat Māori as other people when we have such figures?

I'm suggesting that people do not go to these centres because they do not feel comfortable there because of the way they are treated. These are cultural considerations. Mainstream doctors treat the symptoms, the disease, the illness - they do not treat the whole person. The last time I saw a specialist I was treated like a piece of shit. He had no interest in me, he had no interest in talking to me - he did his test and said "you have (doesn't matter). NEXT ..." (And he was wrong).

Just as I am sure that you would not feel comfortable going to a Māori health provider, we do not always feel comfortable going to a health provider grounded in our European-derived cultures.

And I'm not arguing race. I have never used the word RACE and I use the word Ethnicity reluctantly when I have to. This is an argument about CULTURE ... and European-derived cultures do not cater well for our needs.

[Banditbandit]

Why not too sure about that one? why does one racial subset of society deserve an earmarked position inf govt when all the others have to get there on merit alone?

First of all, I never talk about race - the argument is about culture and about political power in this country - the white settlers simply took over, after counter-signing the Declaration of Independence and agreeing to Māori Sovereignty and despite orders from home - they simply took over. Even for the day it was not an ethical action - there were plenty of voices opposing colonization on ethical grounds.

My reluctance to agree is that we have a complete imbalance of power in this country - when that disappears I will agree they should be abolished.

And because I can see the counter arguments and it does seem undemocratic. However, democracy was imposed on us, and it was never a Maori political thing.


Maori only scholarships is the one that come to mind.

Name them. Name taxpayer-funded Maori only scholarships. I won't accept rumour, myth and speculation - NAME THEM. I'm sick of this bullshit - NAME THEM !!!


Cultural equity? Classrooms a pretty culture neutral if you ask me;

Seriously??? There is no such thing as cultural neutrality. The only thing that is culturally neutral is that we all breath, we all eat, we all shit and we all have sex. HOW we do those things is based in a culture. Cultural neutrality is a myth ...

How we learn in a classroom (pedagogy) is totally based within a culture, within a cultural approach to knowledge, what that is and how it is transmitted.

Do you really think that a room full of kids sitting at rows of desk with the teacher standing up the front is culturally neutral?? It is not how a Maori cultural learning situation would even look, let alone the human reactions taking place in such an environment.


and what do you mean 15% of education/health vote? is this another thing we must earmark for one racial subset while not offering the same to others?

No - the population of Godzone is about 15% Maori - so why not take that portion of the health and education budget and put it into Maori schools and health centres? It seems a fair division of the health vote - its probably what gets consumed by Maori anyway - but in ways that are not effective for our people.

And of course non-Maori are welcome to use such schools and centres as they wish. We are not culturally exclusive.

[bogan]

First of all, I never talk about race - the argument is about culture and about political power in this country - the white settlers simply took over, after counter-signing the Declaration of Independence and agreeing to Māori Sovereignty and despite orders from home - they simply took over. Even for the day it was not an ethical action - there were plenty of voices opposing colonization on ethical grounds.

My reluctance to agree is that we have a complete imbalance of power in this country - when that disappears I will agree they should be abolished.

And because I can see the counter arguments and it does seem undemocratic. However, democracy was imposed on us, and it was never a Maori political thing.



Name them. Name taxpayer-funded Maori only scholarships. I won't accept rumour, myth and speculation - NAME THEM. I'm sick of this bullshit - NAME THEM !!!



Seriously??? There is no such thing as cultural neutrality. The only thing that is culturally neutral is that we all breath, we all eat, we all shit and we all have sex. HOW we do those things is based in a culture. Cultural neutrality is a myth ...

How we learn in a classroom (pedagogy) is totally based within a culture, within a cultural approach to knowledge, what that is and how it is transmitted.

Do you really think that a room full of kids sitting at rows of desk with the teacher standing up the front is culturally neutral?? It is not how a Maori cultural learning situation would even look, let alone the human reactions taking place in such an environment.



No - the population of Godzone is about 15% Maori - so why not take that portion of the health and education budget and put it into Maori schools and health centres? It seems a fair division of the health vote - its probably what gets consumed by Maori anyway - but in ways that are not effective for our people.

And of course non-Maori are welcome to use such schools and centres as they wish. We are not culturally exclusive.

Bullshit you don't talk about race, that is exactly how you get the 15% figure.
More wah wah wah whitey took our things so we deserve special treatment, that is the real source of racial divide in this country. It's utter bullshit, kiwis chose to be what we are today; just because a minority doesn't agree with that doesn't mean they should get special treatment.

Cbf finding govt funded scholarships, plenty of private funded ones though http://www.massey.ac.nz/massey/admission/scholarships-bursaries-awards/other-scholarships/search-results/search-results_home.cfm?advFilters=0&process=1&scholarship_close_date=0&study_level=0&ethnicity=0&disability=0&mode_code=0&keywords=maori&search=Search&submit=submit

What I mean is the classroom doesn't focus on any one culture, in fact the main culture we had forced on us is Maori, with hakas and singing and arts etc. So what if Maori culture would do the whole thing differently, so might the NZ asian culture, etc etc; as kiwis we have decided how the classrooms should be.

More ideas for separatism? Big backwards step if you ask me. Have you got any evidence Maori benefit from segregation of education and healthcare?

[Banditbandit]

Treated al the same?? Look at this one - blatant racism ...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/10263055/Store-regrets-shoplift-shame

[Banditbandit]

Bullshit you don't talk about race, that is exactly how you get the 15% figure.

No - you put the "race" definition on that - I mean it as a cultural difference.


More wah wah wah whitey took our things so we deserve special treatment, that is the real source of racial divide in this country.

Or if I put my spin on it - Whitey won, we get the right to choose - shit the fuck up, you're a beaten people.



It's utter bullshit, kiwis chose to be what we are today; just because a minority doesn't agree with that doesn't mean they should get special treatment.

How can you say Kiwis chose, and then, in the same sentence, the minority did not agree? Can't you see the contradictions in your own thinking?


Cbf finding govt funded scholarships, plenty of private funded ones though http://www.massey.ac.nz/massey/admission/scholarships-bursaries-awards/other-scholarships/search-results/search-results_home.cfm?advFilters=0&process=1&scholarship_close_date=0&study_level=0&ethnicity=0&disability=0&mode_code=0&keywords=maori&search=Search&submit=submit

Those are private scholarships .. so what's you're problem? There are plenty of private scholarships in Godzone that are not open to everyone. WHat is your problem???


What I mean is the classroom doesn't focus on any one culture,

It doesn't have to focus on one culture - it is totally based in one culture.


in fact the main culture we had forced on us is Maori, with hakas and singing and arts etc.

Forced on you? Possibly - the main culture forced on us is the European-derived culture ...


So what if Maori culture would do the whole thing differently, so might the NZ asian culture, etc etc; as kiwis we have decided how the classrooms should be.

Yes - you kiwis have decided - and us Maori get shut out???



More ideas for separatism? Big backwards step if you ask me. Have you got any evidence Maori benefit from segregation of education and healthcare?

Absolutely - it might take me more than a couple of minutes to find it - but I will get it. Possibly today - more likely tomorrow.

[bogan]

No - you put the "race" definition on that - I mean it as a cultural difference.



Or if I put my spin on it - Whitey won, we get the right to choose - shit the fuck up, you're a beaten people.




How can you say Kiwis chose, and then, in the same sentence, the minority did not agree? Can't you see the contradictions in your own thinking?



Those are private scholarships .. so what's you're problem? There are plenty of private scholarships in Godzone that are not open to everyone. WHat is your problem???



It doesn't have to focus on one culture - it is totally based in one culture.



Forced on you? Possibly - the main culture forced on us is the European-derived culture ...



Yes - you kiwis have decided - and us Maori get shut out???




Absolutely - it might take me more than a couple of minutes to find it - but I will get it. Possibly today - more likely tomorrow.

And how was the 15% worked out, those who are of Maori descent, or those who are of Maori culture?

Exactly, your spin is always them vs us. We are all kiwis, grow up and accept that.

No, we are a democracy, the kiwi's choice is simply the majority, race/culture should not give one subset the right to rule over the other.

Find me even a tenth as many that are only open to pakehas...

I think I see the problem, your idea of culture is Maori, or not-maori; if it is based in any one culture, that culture is kiwi, which includes aspects of Maori anyway so I don't see what your problem is.

What aspects, from what culture? and remember not-Maori is not a culture in itself.

For the nth time, kiwi's include Maori; how is that so difficult to understand? Are you that racist that the concept is abhorrent to you or something?

[Banditbandit]

And how was the 15% worked out, those who are of Maori descent, or those who are of Maori culture?

15% of the population identify as "Maori" - you would have to ask each one of them what they mean by that choice ..




No, we are a democracy, the kiwi's choice is simply the majority, race/culture should not give one subset the right to rule over the other.

We do not ant to "rule" over anyone - we want a fair share in our own country.


Find me even a tenth as many that are only open to pakehas...

A tenth of what? Scholarships? I have no idea how many private scholarships there are in Godzone that are not open to everyone. There are heaps of family trusts that are only open to members of that family ... what is your problem? Are you suggsting that iwi and hapu trusts should be open to everyone? They are just our version of family trusts.


I think I see the problem, your idea of culture is Maori, or not-maori; if it is based in any one culture, that culture is kiwi, which includes aspects of Maori anyway so I don't see what your problem is.

What aspects, from what culture? and remember not-Maori is not a culture in itself.

I would not be that stupid - "Culture" is a homogenizing term and not all members of an overall culture will display all the features of that overall culture ...


For the nth time, kiwi's include Maori; how is that so difficult to understand? Are you that racist that the concept is abhorrent to you or something?

We do not see it that way at all. "Kiwi" is the name from the European-derived cultures. Why would we name ourselves after a wingless bird with hairy feathers that digs in the ground for grubs? You are, once again, imposing your ideas on Māori.

No, the concept is not abhorrent to us. What is abhorrent to us is that we are not treated with equity in our own country. Way back, we accepted the Europeans into our country and into our lives. They shat on us, and continue to shit on us.

Just look at the racist attitudes of Countdown workers, in the story I posted above. How often are you going to here, "There's a Kiwi in the store - better check to make sure they don't steal anything"?

And throwing the "racist" label is just another way of the dominant culture keeping us in a subordinate position and ignoring the issues. Typical arrogant attitude ..

[Banditbandit]

Cbf finding govt funded scholarships,

You demand I back up my claims .. but you CBF doing it yourself? Or do you know you won't find any?

So - back up your claims or stop perpetrating the bullshit myth that these scholarships exist.

[Banditbandit]

A system that provides more for Maori than any other ethnic group in the country.

Now, did you want to talk about the provision of those ethnically restricted services, or did you want to talk about the resulting outcomes?

Yeah .. let's do that ... show me .. show me how Maori are provided for more than any other ethnic group ... show me those ethnically restricted services ...

And then, yes, let's talk about the resulting outcomes ...

So - first - show me those ethnically restricted services ..

[bogan]

15% of the population identify as "Maori" - you would have to ask each one of them what they mean by that choice ..





We do not ant to "rule" over anyone - we want a fair share in our own country.



A tenth of what? Scholarships? I have no idea how many private scholarships there are in Godzone that are not open to everyone. There are heaps of family trusts that are only open to members of that family ... what is your problem? Are you suggsting that iwi and hapu trusts should be open to everyone? They are just our version of family trusts.



I would not be that stupid - "Culture" is a homogenizing term and not all members of an overall culture will display all the features of that overall culture ...



We do not see it that way at all. "Kiwi" is the name from the European-derived cultures. Why would we name ourselves after a wingless bird with hairy feathers that digs in the ground for grubs? You are, once again, imposing your ideas on Māori.

No, the concept is not abhorrent to us. What is abhorrent to us is that we are not treated with equity in our own country. Way back, we accepted the Europeans into our country and into our lives. They shat on us, and continue to shit on us.

Just look at the racist attitudes of Countdown workers, in the story I posted above. How often are you going to here, "There's a Kiwi in the store - better check to make sure they don't steal anything"?

And throwing the "racist" label is just another way of the dominant culture keeping us in a subordinate position and ignoring the issues. Typical arrogant attitude ..

Depends entirely on the context, was the question What race are you? or What culture do you identify with? where is that figure from origninally?

Fair share? fine then, do away with Maori only seats and get you fair share through your fair share of the votes. Stop asking for all these veto rights and preferential treatment, and abide by what your fair share contributes or fails to contribute to the democracy.

Find some that are for whites only then.

Exactly, demanding preferential treatment for one subset based on culture reasons alone just doesn't fit with the overall culture of kiwis.

Yawn, stil not good with words today I see. Kiwi is defined as: of or from new zealand. kiwi includes all new zealanders, even the rasicst cunts; end of fucking story. If you want to try hipster philosophical but my word doesn't mean what commonly accepted definition is then you can fuck right off; discussion require commonly accepted terms, deal with it.
You are treated with equity, your ideas are worth as much as anyone elses, what you want us to do is treat 15% of the nation's ideas as superior to any other 15%. That is not the way to end racism. Nor is crying about what my ancestors (who are also ancestors of 90% of those 15% too btw) did to your ancestors.

Just look at the shit you have to post, omg there is a racist working at countdown, sky is falling. I've been accused of shoplifting when I hadn't been, that shit didn't make it to the papers despite being age/clothing profiled.

What a crock of shit, throwing the racist label is done because you are demonstrably racist.


You demand I back up my claims .. but you CBF doing it yourself? Or do you know you won't find any?

So - back up your claims or stop perpetrating the bullshit myth that these scholarships exist.

Perhaps I will get right on that once you show how beneficial culture oriented learning is...

[oldrider]

Comment overheard yesterday by one of a group of Maori discussing Maori affairs.

If anything is unfairly holding Maori back in this country (or the world for that matter) ... it is probably Maori in origin!

I fealt that comment was worthy of more than a little thought!

Maori are highly representative in every sphere of life both nationally and internationally ... not bad for 15% of fuckall by world standards! :niceone:

[Banditbandit]

Fair share? fine then, do away with Maori only seats and get you fair share through your fair share of the votes. Stop asking for all these veto rights

When have we asked for veto rights? four MPs out of 120 hardly gives us Veto RIghts ...


and preferential treatment, and abide by what your fair share contributes or fails to contribute to the democracy.

OK .. How about the $36billion the Maori economy contributes to Godzone ... about 17% of GDP - certainly a greater contribuition than the 15% of the population might be expected to contribute - especially as many people here (I only include you if you think this fits you) think we contribute bugger all !!!


Find some that are for whites only then.

That's impossible - how do you find family trust scholarships?


Exactly, demanding preferential treatment for one subset based on culture reasons alone just doesn't fit with the overall culture of kiwis.

I'm sorry - those with diabetes, asthma and a host of chronic conditions get preferential treatment - i.e. they get treatment that I certainly do not get ... So "Preferential treatment" is how you define it ...


Yawn, stil not good with words today I see. Kiwi is defined as: of or from new zealand. kiwi includes all new zealanders, even the rasicst cunts; end of fucking story. If you want to try hipster philosophical but my word doesn't mean what commonly accepted definition is then you can fuck right off; discussion require commonly accepted terms, deal with it.


You are imposing your views on the basis that they are correct. Go here. http://www.ethnicity.maori.nz/files/ethnicity_national_identity.pdf




You are treated with equity, your ideas are worth as much as anyone elses, what you want us to do is treat 15% of the nation's ideas as superior to any other 15%. That is not the way to end racism. Nor is crying about what my ancestors (who are also ancestors of 90% of those 15% too btw) did to your ancestors.

WHen did I say that? When did I make that claim that my ideas are superior to the rest (And not al Maoti agree - just as not all Pakeha agree.


Just look at the shit you have to post, omg there is a racist working at countdown, sky is falling.

It was ONE example - there are plenty ...



I've been accused of shoplifting when I hadn't been, that shit didn't make it to the papers despite being age/clothing profiled.

O .. so you think that excuses profiling on the basis of being Maori???


What a crock of shit, throwing the racist label is done because you are demonstrably racist.

How ??? I do not discriminate on the basis of race ...




Perhaps I will get right on that once you show how beneficial culture oriented learning is...

Perhaps you should do just that .. otherwise you are just repeating the myths and propaganda of the dominant culture.

And finally ---





When raising racial issues you gotta use kid gloves;

Well done .. you certainly follow your own advice ...

[bogan]

When have we asked for veto rights? four MPs out of 120 hardly gives us Veto RIghts ...



OK .. let's withdraw the $36billion the Maori economy contributes to Godzone ... about 17$ of GDP - certainly a greter contribuition than the 15% of the population might be (let's not withdraw it .. we want this country to succeed as much as you do ... )



That's impossible - how do you find family trust scholarships?



I'm sorry - those with diabetes, asthma and a host of chronic conditions get preferential treatment - i.e. they get treatment that I certainly do not get ...




You are imposing your views on the basis that they are correct. Go here. http://www.ethnicity.maori.nz/files/ethnicity_national_identity.pdf





WHen did I say that? When did I make that claim that my ideas are superior to the rest (And not al Maoti agree - just as not all Pakeha agree.



It was ONE example - there are plenty ...




O .. so you think that excuses profiling on the basis of being Maori???



How ??? I do not discriminate on the basis of race ...





Perhaps you should do just that .. otherwise you are just repeating the myths and propaganda of the dominant culture.

And finally ---





Well done .. you certainly follow your own advice ...

All this whining about how we need to change what is done simply because 15% of the pop want it; actually it isn't even that, you can't claim to speak for all those who share your culture; anyway, that is the veto rights I see you asking for.

You don't want to go even further down the segregation of economy route do you? Why can you not understand that 15% shouldn't be able to call the shots? Instead of increasing said percentage by including others you perpetuate the racism by demanding special/preferential treatment.

Not white family only, whites only, as in, eligible to anyone of European descent.

That's a piss poor effort, unless you think being Maori is an affliction like asthma etc?

Oh, do fuck off with the semantic bullshit, we both know that by kiwi I mean New Zealander; nit pickery bullshit on that point just shows how weak your other points are.

The demands that 15% of resources be put aside for your 15%. Resource allocation is not up to the 15%, it is up to the majority. Segrationary ideals will not sit well with the majority I'm thinking.

So what if there are other racists? how does that in any way affect my discussion points?
No, just pointing out how when race is involved, teacups can get stormy.

Dominant culture, fuck you really have problems seeing us as equals don't you.

Meh, when talking to a racist it is hard for the gloves to stay on; I just have a natural aversion and low tolerance to prejudices like that. Still, since you reckon I'm part of the dominant culture, shit doesn't really matter to me does it :facepalm:

[pete376403]

I'm suggesting that people do not go to these centres because they do not feel comfortable there because of the way they are treated. These are cultural considerations. Mainstream doctors treat the symptoms, the disease, the illness - they do not treat the whole person. The last time I saw a specialist I was treated like a piece of shit. He had no interest in me, he had no interest in talking to me - he did his test and said "you have (doesn't matter). NEXT ..." (And he was wrong)..

Thats not a Maori/white thing, thats merely that most specialists believe they are gods and treat everyone like that. My (EuroWhite) wife is treated exactly the same, right down to the wrong outcome.

[Ocean1]

And I'm not arguing race. I have never used the word RACE and I use the word Ethnicity reluctantly when I have to. This is an argument about CULTURE ... and European-derived cultures do not cater well for our needs.

Dude, I don't have time, but you're wrong in claiming Maori get less health funding and you're wrong in your claims that there's no Maori-specific resources allocated for Maori. Quick example if you've got more time than me: Find a culture-specific European support resource for students at any tertiary institution. Find a group represented by specific cultural considerations in any tertiary syllabus in NZ other than Maori. "Cultural safety" in health is ALL about Maori, and it's a ridiculously large part of those courses. Time I'd suggest were better spent learning their trade: how to heal people.

And you're correct not to argue race, any person currently considering themselves Maori is genetically all but indistinguishable from any European. So, culture it is. Now here's the thing: Show me the cultural roots of the Maori behaviours with known negative health outcomes.

And we don't have a European-derived health system. There's no such thing. What we have is a health system, one developed by professionals from all over the planet, from every culture you've ever heard of. Few of those other cultures have any trouble accessing New Zealand's health system with generally good results. If Maori are less healthy than other cultures then list the causal relationships, and be prepared to accept that in most cases the causes have nothing to do with the health system. In fact if you find Maori behaviour has little effect on their health outcomes then don't bother going any further, you're deluding yourself.

[Ocean1]

Yeah .. let's do that ... show me .. show me how Maori are provided for more than any other ethnic group ... show me those ethnically restricted services ...

And then, yes, let's talk about the resulting outcomes ...

So - first - show me those ethnically restricted services ..

http://www.whitireia.ac.nz/AreasOfInterest/Maori-Nursing/Pages/MaoriNursing.aspx

[avgas]

Dude, I don't have time, but you're wrong in claiming Maori get less health funding and you're wrong in your claims that there's no Maori-specific resources allocated for Maori. Quick example if you've got more time than me: Find a culture-specific European support resource for students at any tertiary institution. Find a group represented by specific cultural considerations in any tertiary syllabus in NZ other than Maori. "Cultural safety" in health is ALL about Maori, and it's a ridiculously large part of those courses. Time I'd suggest were better spent learning their trade: how to heal people.

And you're correct not to argue race, any person currently considering themselves Maori is genetically all but indistinguishable from any European. So, culture it is. Now here's the thing: Show me the cultural roots of the Maori behaviours with known negative health outcomes.

And we don't have a European-derived health system. There's no such thing. What we have is a health system, one developed by professionals from all over the planet, from every culture you've ever heard of. Few of those other cultures have any trouble accessing New Zealand's health system with generally good results. If Maori are less healthy than other cultures then list the causal relationships, and be prepared to accept that in most cases the causes have nothing to do with the health system. In fact if you find Maori behaviour has little effect on their health outcomes then don't bother going any further, you're deluding yourself.
I have to agree a little here.
If you see the drama's that Irish/English have had over the last 400 years - you can see why the problem can be race related.

I personally think that there are a whole bunch of great Maori people and things out there, the problem is it is a personal basis - ALL people need to recognize this and not say its a problem with race, but what their past generations did wrong. My father didn't beat the shit out of me as he had a father (step) who did. I try my hardest to be around my son more rather than work more.
If we fix these problems one generation at a time - you soon realize that it really doesn't matter a fuck what race you are.

A good example of this is smoking - I place a bet that in the history of white man on NZ you will see that the Maori population has gone from not smoking at all to all smoking, to hopefully none smoking at all. Meaning it was never a race problem, it was an environmental problem. Fix the environment, generation by generation, and you will see the benefits.
Maori people can lead the rest of us morons in this regard - if they simply remove the BS restraints they place on themselves.
It seems the only ones I know who are complaining - are the ones who have not created a solution. Plenty of well-off, well educated, well cultured, exceptional individuals. Contrary to popular belief they were not "helped along the way by white-folk". They simply didn't see race as being a obstacle to their progress.

[Banditbandit]

http://www.whitireia.ac.nz/AreasOfInterest/Maori-Nursing/Pages/MaoriNursing.aspx

Yes - that Whitirea programme is similar to one I am involved in developing - it does not exclude non-Maori nurses, just as we will not here .. we have had non-Maori nursing students on our programme in the past ...

If that's your best shot - FAIL. It's not exclusive ..

[Ocean1]

Yes - that Whitirea programme is similar to one I am involved in developing - it does not exclude non-Maori nurses, just as we will not here .. we have had non-Maori nursing students on our programme in the past ...

If that's your best shot - FAIL. It's not exclusive ..

Neither is the standard nursing programme. So why do you need to ring-fence budget specially for Maori? And removing budgeting from mainstream health delivery to provide Maori-specific training services is most certainly exclusive, it’s money not then available for any other cultural-specific funding, is it?

As you were at pains to point out Maori are not a separate race, genetically identical, the same health interventions produce exactly the same results that every other culture finds effective. You haven't yet pointed out to me the cultural roots of those Maori behaviors with known negative health outcomes, and exactly why Maori need special considerations over and above those every other culture manages to do without. Is it not the case that if Maori behaved as other cultures do then they'd get the same health benefits? And if that's asking too much then what makes you think any quantity of extra service or special treatment is going to make any difference?

Do we see special rooms to accommodate visiting familie? Семейство, rodina, familija, pere, keluarga, famiglia, 家族, gezin, rodzina, семья, keluarga, ครอบครัว, aile, 家庭, gesin? No other culture in NZ sees the need. But we have special Whānau rooms. What funding do you suppose that deprives the mainstream health services of? And how is that not exclusive?

Actually, don’t bother, if you’re in that industry then you’ve already been thoroughly indoctrinated, the real world no longer exists.

[mashman]

My heart bleeds for these poor souls. Surely there must be something else the taxpayers could be doing to help those in need?

:bs::bs:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10199138/MPs-set-for-perks-boost

They're keeping the curtain manufacturing business afloat (https://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/24470539/new-library-to-get-100k-curtain/)... glad I don't live there as it sounds like a horrible place.

[awa355]

A new article showing how tough it can be for a politician on the bread line.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10312612/MPs-seeking-to-ramp-up-expenses