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Zed
24th January 2004, 00:31
For all you believers in God, is He happy with your motorcycling?

Strange question I know, but honestly the LORD is interested in EVERYTHING pertaining to His creation, including motorcycles.

The Bible teaches that obeying the laws of the land is obedience to God:
Romans 13:1-2 ¶Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

My contention is that too many of us "Christians" give in to the temptation to speed ridiculously and ride dangerously, therefore breaking the law of the land and ultimately the law of God.

Something to think about. Discuss?...sure.

No doubt there will be some scoffers! :baby:


Zed

Big Dog
24th January 2004, 02:53
For all you believers in God, is He happy with your motorcycling?

:innocent: When god thinks I have sinned to much he will "smite me with a mighty sword, fashioned of flames anf thunder!" can't remember exactly but I think its in corinthians.

All of mans sins shall be forgiven through christ our lord
part of the standard mass.

God does not expect us to remain free of sin, just do the best we can, and praise him for giving us his son that we may be forgiven through the blood of christ.


No man is without sin. :innocent:

Big Dog
24th January 2004, 02:56
My contention is that too many of us "Christians" give in to the temptation to speed ridiculously and ride dangerously, therefore breaking the law of the land and ultimately the law of God.

Something to think about. Discuss?...sure.

No doubt there will be some scoffers! :baby:


Zed

This may explain why it is that every bin Ihave ever had has been at below 60kmph but has been on the same day I did 180kmph plus. :shit:

Zed
24th January 2004, 06:23
:innocent: When god thinks I have sinned to much he will "smite me with a mighty sword, fashioned of flames anf thunder!" can't remember exactly but I think its in corinthians.

All of mans sins shall be forgiven through christ our lord
part of the standard mass.

God does not expect us to remain free of sin, just do the best we can, and praise him for giving us his son that we may be forgiven through the blood of christ.


No man is without sin. :innocent:

What you say is true.

I'm not sure of the verse you meant, maybe- "Deuteronomy 32:41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me"

God is overwhelmingly good to those who have accepted His terms of salvation by faith, they become sons and daughters of God through spiritual adoption- as a Father he will chasten them accordingly if they "sin too much". But the verse above is specifically aimed at God's enemies (the wicked, those who reject Him)- to them He will manifest His power and wrath upon in the day of judgment. Sometimes that comes in this life...all I say is that we motorcyclist believers need to be mindful that God sees EVERYTHING- omnipresent & omniscient remember.

I appreciate your acknowledgement of the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Zed

Zed
24th January 2004, 06:26
This may explain why it is that every bin Ihave ever had has been at below 60kmph but has been on the same day I did 180kmph plus. :shit:

The old saying "someone upstairs is looking after you" is often true.

Many would say you were lucky (Lucifer)...I say that it's more divine intervention!


Zed

What?
24th January 2004, 08:52
The Bible teaches that obeying th laws of the land is obedience to God:
Biblical proof of the Roman senators belief that they were themselves gods? :devil2:

MikeL
24th January 2004, 09:10
Hmmm...
This thread has the potential for some serious unpleasantness.
Sex, politics and other irrelevancies I can handle (and indeed relish). The trouble with religion is that there is often absolutely no common ground for reconciliation of beliefs. One man's devotion is another man's fanaticism.
Let's keep our religious beliefs to ourselves, eh?
:done:

What?
24th January 2004, 09:17
With you every inch of the way, Mike.

Jackrat
24th January 2004, 09:22
Well you did ask so try not to be to offended.
The whole christian god thing is nothing more than crowd control.
The biggist fraud ever played on mankind.
You may have noticed every war ever,Both sides had some god on their side.
The combined christian churches are without doubt the single most murdering
thieving organisations in the world.
So you reckon because some politican passes a law it becomes the word of god. :lol:
Hey do you want to buy a bridge. :whistle:

bluninja
24th January 2004, 09:39
.

The Bible teaches that obeying th laws of the land is obedience to God:
Romans 13:1 ¶Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.


If one took this at face value, then the nazis should be exonerated because they were following the laws of the land, and thus god. And it also makes one question as to why god would put such powers in place to heap such suffering on the world.

There is enough scripture in the bible that can be taken out of context and perverted for any purpose. Perhaps the following scripture could indicate that we should all ride like maniacs, hating every moment of it, until we die??;)

The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. John 12:25

Perhaps instead of focussing on speeding and breaking mans laws you might consider keeping all the law :shit:

The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself. Galatians 5:14"

If posts like this keep popping up then it might need it's own section of the forum:sleep: Perhaps this would be better discussed ina christian forum rather than a biking one (albeit with christian bikers contributing)....or perhaps this is part of your evangelising????:innocent:

Zed
24th January 2004, 09:48
Biblical proof of the Roman senators belief that they were themselves gods? :devil2:

Yes, & look what happened to one of them...

Acts 12:21-24 And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them. And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man. And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost. But the word of God grew and multiplied.


Zed

What?
24th January 2004, 10:15
I feel you should change tack Zed. This appears to be a place where an evangelist may become seriously offended. Maybe worse.
If you want a theological argument, I am keen. But not here - I come here for bike talk.

What MikeL and I were getting at (and Jackrat) is that religious belief has caused the downfall of entire civilisations. We don't want it to be the downfall of this board.

Andrew
24th January 2004, 10:30
My contention is that too many of us "Christians" give in to the temptation to speed ridiculously and ride dangerously, therefore breaking the law of the land and ultimately the law of God.

Something to think about. Discuss?...sure.

No doubt there will be some scoffers! :baby:


Zed

So how do you explain this one CK?

mangell6
24th January 2004, 11:13
What MikeL and I were getting at (and Jackrat) is that religious belief has caused the downfall of entire civilisations. We don't want it to be the downfall of this board.

I would say that it is an individual or a group that has 'used their god' as the 'reason' to do what they want to do. The three major western religons have a lot in common, ask Abraham :)

Just remember that ALL people who ride motorbikes belong to gangs, are lawbreakers and deal in drugs. - Ask enough people and they will tell you that,

Just my two cents worth

Mike

PS This topic scares a lot of people as they ass u me that you are trying to make them do something that they don't want to.

PPS My opinion can never be wrong - cos its mine.

Marmoot
24th January 2004, 11:37
Hmmm...
This thread has the potential for some serious unpleasantness.
Sex, politics and other irrelevancies I can handle (and indeed relish). The trouble with religion is that there is often absolutely no common ground for reconciliation of beliefs. One man's devotion is another man's fanaticism.
Let's keep our religious beliefs to ourselves, eh?
:done:

I believe in you too, Mike!!! All the way!!!

:done: :done: :done:

SPman
24th January 2004, 11:58
No doubt there will be some scoffers! :baby:

Too bloody right!


However, my God is, perfectly happy with what I do!

wkid_one
24th January 2004, 12:52
Well you did ask so try not to be to offended.
The whole christian god thing is nothing more than crowd control.
The biggist fraud ever played on mankind.
You may have noticed every war ever,Both sides had some god on their side.
The combined christian churches are without doubt the single most murdering
thieving organisations in the world.
So you reckon because some politican passes a law it becomes the word of god. :lol:
Hey do you want to buy a bridge. :whistle:
This post I MUST agree with

Draco
24th January 2004, 17:58
Someone give this guy a SIGN :whocares:

750Y
24th January 2004, 19:03
this must be a wind-up.

KATWYN
24th January 2004, 20:04
Why do people get so passionate about religeon anyway?
if we all just respect everyones beleifs and opinions the
world would be a better place. :hug:
All that scripture being thrown around, can mean anything to
anyone....its all about perspectives. No two people
have the same perspective on any one given thing (psych fact). Our
history, environment, culture etc influence the way we individually
see the world and create our personal beliefs/faith.. :innocent:

And yes, I personally think scripture was the best thing human
beings have ever had given to them. :innocent: he he these
little angel icons had their purpose huh?

Right..OK whats next ...politics? :blah:

Zed
24th January 2004, 22:28
Hiya Katwyn,

Firstly, you have great taste in bikes...the R6 is spectacular! :yes: Good on you.

My original post was actually directed at believers in God. I am keen to hear their perspective as bikers, that's all. I have had half a dozen positive private messages sent to me in relation to this post by believers, generally we are in agreement. I guess they don't feel the liberty to express their beliefs publickly (sic.) on this site because of the ridicule that they would get from others...just as I have with this post! (doesn't matter to me though)

We are passionate about "religion" because we love God and the life we have chosen to live- it's that simple. There is something special that happens to a person when they put their faith and trust in God- this cannot be explained or understood until one takes this step, and until this happens the things of God are foolish and confusing to the unbelieving heart.

I appreciate what you said about the scripture.

Take care out there,


Zed

franco
24th January 2004, 23:42
I know I have a choice not to read a post about religion. I know I have a choice not to respond to a post about religion. Even when it's thinly disguised as a discussion about bikes & riding.

Religion is a powerful subject. There are many powerful subjects. However, this is a forum about the subject of motorcycles. I admire your passion and conviction of belief in god and christianity. I also hope you find it in your heart to discuss personal theological beliefs "outside" with other christians.

Happy to talk bikes. Happy to talk most everything else. I might be out of line here, but please talk bible and god in another forum/ place.

cher cher

Ogri
25th January 2004, 06:17
For all you believers in God, is He happy with your motorcycling?

I don't give a flying f...k

I'm with you Jackrat - biggest story book ever written

georgedubyabush
25th January 2004, 08:24
I don't give a flying f...k

I'm with you Jackrat - biggest story book ever written

Agreed. I dont hold anything at all against Christians however, nothing wrong with a bit of positive moral fibre, as long as it isnt forced down my throat. Interesting that many former gang members seem to jump into Christianity. Are they seeking repentence or do some people just 'need' something to follow?

The whole 'law of the land' thing... from what I remember of legal history 101... Our law came from the Brits, which was based on Roman laws, which was based on the 10 Commandments... so I guess in a round about way the road code might be seen by some as breaking gods law. Sure hasnt stopped me. :Pokey:

wkid_one
25th January 2004, 08:46
IMHO - religion was used as the basis for the rich staying rich and the poor staying poor. It goes back to a time - when the rich were few and the poor were plenty and had the rich not controlled the poor, the poor would have revolted.

I have NO problems with people believing in a higher faith or ultimate destiny - however I myself am yet to see any justification or validation that there is in fact a higher power.

It is ironic, as Jack Rat said, many of the historical wars/battles etc ALL had a religious involvement and religious purpose.

Also, there is a hell of a lot more empirical and scientific evidence to support the Darwin theory of evolution.

I just question some of the tenants of religion. For example - why is the CHRISTIAN view of the world correct and not the Maori, Hindu, Aboriginian views?? Is this just purely due to numbers and support?

I will ALWAYS question following a ethos that dictates you have limited control over your existance.

As for religion being a saving grace - to many people have DIED at the hands of religion, too many young boys have been VIOLATED at the hands of religion, to many wars have been financially back by religion for my devote following.

Also - if God exists in everything and is all around us - why in fact to we need churchs and or preists - surely we can converse with God whereever we are - as espoused by the Christadelphians.....

Take Ireland as an example - who's religion is right??? Surely it wasn't Gods higher intention to have these people fighting over him?

I am, and will remain and Atheist until such time as proven otherwise.

Many kingdoms, emperors, dictators and Fuhrurs used Religion as a reason/excuse/purpose to murder/rape and plllage their way through this world.

And before you ask - yes I have read the Bible from cover to cover - it is a good story......a bit waffley tho but you probably get that when a number of different people contribute to a story.

Also - why do we refer to the Devil as a person - from my recollections no where in the bible does it refer to a physical being? More just the intents of man.

And before you come back and try and convince me of the wrongs of my beliefs DON'T.....religion is a personal preference and their is nothing worse than someone trying to ram the 'God does exist' argument down your throat.

This is just MY opinion and my belief...and I not disparging your beliefs just presenting my reasons for remaining a non-believer at this stage

georgedubyabush
25th January 2004, 09:37
And before you ask - yes I have read the Bible from cover to cover - it is a good story......a bit waffley tho but you probably get that when a number of different people contribute to a story.


And sooo preachy... :bleh:

merv
25th January 2004, 11:52
I've always figured that there are so many bad bastards in this world (their exploits are in the news everyday) there must be a waiting list to get into Hell so no use going with the other side you might end up there too quick. Ride on.

As for religion, given the bulk of people on this earth live in China, India, Indonesia etc and there won't be too many Christians there, how can the Christians truly believe they are right? Are all these other guys so wrong?

When the Mormons spot me I say "no worries boys, I've got my own religion - motorcycles".

Big Dog
25th January 2004, 15:32
Belief in god never hurt anybody, religeon has subjugated the masses for all time.
Zealots and religeon are responsible for more murder in the name of their god than any other motive. There is way to much beauty in our world for it to all be one big coincidence.

The problem is people who decide how the masses should behave. If you take a close look at all of the religions they all boil down to the one principal, do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

My church is the great out doors.
I do my best to follow the word.
But I beleive that the church is a corrupt institution. If you want to worship god do so in your deeds to others. The world needs more samaritans and less evengelists.

The only religeous type I loathe are those who push their beliefs on others, or try to suppress those who are different.

If you want to show youre allegiance to god, Budha, Jesus, whoever stop telling everyone how great your god is and show them. Otherwise it just sounds like you are trying to sell yourself.

Lou Girardin
25th January 2004, 16:08
Going down to Orere Pt today, God told me that he was having a ball and to pick it up a bit. Too slow.
Hey Zed, your interpretation of something written in another time and a different place, may not actually be correct.
Can we keep proselytising off the forum?
Lou

wkid_one
25th January 2004, 16:20
Belief in god never hurt anybody, religeon has subjugated the masses for all time.
Zealots and religeon are responsible for more murder in the name of their god than any other motive. There is way to much beauty in our world for it to all be one big coincidence.

The problem is people who decide how the masses should behave. If you take a close look at all of the religions they all boil down to the one principal, do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

My church is the great out doors.
I do my best to follow the word.
But I beleive that the church is a corrupt institution. If you want to worship god do so in your deeds to others. The world needs more samaritans and less evengelists.

The only religeous type I loathe are those who push their beliefs on others, or try to suppress those who are different.

If you want to show youre allegiance to god, Budha, Jesus, whoever stop telling everyone how great your god is and show them. Otherwise it just sounds like you are trying to sell yourself.
WELL SAID............:beer:

SPman
25th January 2004, 21:18
When dogma comes in the door, reason flies out the window!

.......and other cliched sayings..

:apint:

Zed
25th January 2004, 21:45
Going down to Orere Pt today, God told me that he was having a ball and to pick it up a bit. Too slow.
Hey Zed, your interpretation of something written in another time and a different place, may not actually be correct.
Can we keep proselytising off the forum?
Lou
...and if I am correct?

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

My original post was actually directed at other believers in God to comment on. I have had more feedback from non-believers.

BTW the weather was great for a ride 2day...I trust it waz a blast! Some good roads down Orere Pt way.


Zed

Yamahamaman
25th January 2004, 22:02
Can we keep proselytising off the forum?
Lou

I guess not. :(

SPman
25th January 2004, 23:00
My original post was actually directed at other believers in God to comment on. I have had more feedback from non-believers.

And which God would that be??? :innocent:

Zed
25th January 2004, 23:42
[/color][/b]

And which God would that be??? :innocent:
...that would be the God who has revealed Himself to you and I as an heavenly Father, the ONE who gave his only begotten son... you know the rest!

Technically His name is The LORD Jesus Christ.
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Since you asked. (I'm permitted to answer aren't I?)


Zed :innocent:

MikeL
26th January 2004, 06:34
I don't like to say I told you so, but...
:disapint:

Hitcher
26th January 2004, 07:36
Jeez, you go away for the weekend and come back to work on Monday to this unadulterated twaddle! I'm finding it hard to keep my breakfast down.

I thought that KiwiBiker was a secular site devoted to the discussion of things motorbiked -- in its most generic sense. What the god-fearing and others choose to do in the privacy of their own homes is one thing but I am not impressed by the scripture-quoting that preceeds in this particular thread.

Give it up for Lent, guys and get a life...
:eek:

wkid_one
26th January 2004, 07:53
Jeez, you go away for the weekend and come back to work on Monday to this unadulterated twaddle! I'm finding it hard to keep my breakfast down.

I thought that KiwiBiker was a secular site devoted to the discussion of things motorbiked -- in its most generic sense. What the god-fearing and others choose to do in the privacy of their own homes is one thing but I am not impressed by the scripture-quoting that preceeds in this particular thread.

Give it up for Lent, guys and get a life...
:eek:It is interesting - in the interests of providing fullness to my threads about this - I watched the POWER HOUR on telly. What a waste of time.....

Anywho - to me, it appears that Scripture and Biblical Verse are like statistics - many interpretation and can be made to mean ANYTHING you like.

Kinda like Star Signs (sorry those devout Christians who believe astrology is paganism) - if you right something as ambiguously as possible - everyone can find meaning in it to suit themselves

I prefer to read Nostradamus et al....same sort of thing - an airy fairy statement that is gonna come true at some stage.

Hitcher
26th January 2004, 08:32
Of course god approves of motorcycling...

After all, isn't it written in the bible that Moses burned up the desert on/in his Triumph???
:brick:

wkid_one
26th January 2004, 08:37
Of course god approves of motorcycling...

After all, isn't it written in the bible that Moses burned up the desert on/in his Triumph???
:brick:
NOOOOOO - that was the parting of the red sea because of his hell burn out....
Then the flood that Noah was caught in was the result of a coolant leak from God's Vincent...

As for the Snake in the Apple Tree - well it was really a Suzuki dealer that got Eve to buy a GSXR when Adam wanted an R1

Jackrat
26th January 2004, 09:16
An Jesus was a dope freak with the gift of the gab.
Seems he walked into the desert and ate some Cactis,Then he saw God,the devil,an a whole lot of other heavy shit.
Wonder what type of Cactis it was ??? :whistle: :lol:

wkid_one
26th January 2004, 09:31
An Jesus was a dope freak with the gift of the gab.
Seems he walked into the desert and ate some Cactis,Then he saw God,the devil,an a whole lot of other heavy shit.
Wonder what type of Cactis it was ??? :whistle: :lol:
It was was the first GE crop of Daturin cloned with Magic Mushrooms!!! (or however you spell it)

wkid_one
26th January 2004, 09:33
An Jesus was a dope freak with the gift of the gab.
Seems he walked into the desert and ate some Cactis,Then he saw God,the devil,an a whole lot of other heavy shit.
Wonder what type of Cactis it was ??? :whistle: :lol:It was was the first GE crop of Datura cloned with Magic Mushrooms!!! (or however you spell it)

On the GE Issue - wasn't by definition God the first GE practioner when he took one of Adams ribs to create Eve??? Doesn't he therefore condone GE Experimentation also?

Zed
26th January 2004, 10:13
An Jesus was a dope freak with the gift of the gab.
Seems he walked into the desert and ate some Cactis,Then he saw God,the devil,an a whole lot of other heavy shit.
Wonder what type of Cactis it was ??? :whistle: :lol:
Wow, you guys are really giving God heaps!

He laughs at you-
God speaking: Proverbs 1:26-29 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me: For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

I wouldn't want to be in your shoes when you hit the judgment!

Matthew 12:36-37 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
This post was intended for the believers in this site to comment on- you just wait until I post one about God for the non-believers! :soon:




Zed

bungbung
26th January 2004, 11:15
We'll have to agree to disagree then won't we?

There is a time and place. This is not the place, and I don't have the time.

Hitcher
26th January 2004, 11:27
I hope others are impressed by my ability to shut-the-f*** up on this on this thread, despite several nosebleads. I know I am!!!! But Then again I can resist anything except temptation...
:shutup:

Lou Girardin
26th January 2004, 15:08
Then there's the buddhist who went to the hot dog vendor and said 'make me one with everthing'
Lou

Yamahamaman
26th January 2004, 15:19
God/JC obviously does not approve of Zed riding a motorcycle. I see that his ZXR is offered for sale on this site and also at Trademe along with other protective wear. :confused2

Hitcher
26th January 2004, 15:19
Then there's the buddhist who went to the hot dog vendor and said 'make me one with everthing'
Lou
ROTFPML!! That's really good... I needed that!
:hug:

Zed
26th January 2004, 16:57
God/JC obviously does not approve of Zed riding a motorcycle. I see that his ZXR is offered for sale on this site and also at Trademe along with other protective wear. :confused2
So it's diminished to personal attacks now has it?

Yes, I'm looking to upgrade my ZX6R to a newer model (even though I on my current bike would probably still blitz you). I am selling the gear because I don't like it- I have purchased some more that I do like. (Why do I feel the need to justify these sales to you??)

So you see Yamahamaman, you were WRONG!:Oops:

I won't endeavour to find out any dirty laundry on you and post it...God wouldn't approve of me doing that.


Zed

Yamahamaman
26th January 2004, 17:04
Nope - just an observation.

You have had more personal attacks than anyone could wish for in a life time I suspect...

wkid_one
26th January 2004, 17:15
I have had a thought (YES shut up it does happen once in a while)

Speaking of the big guy (no - not Andre the Giant)......maybe he didn't approve of my riding and knocked me off the bike with his big mitt to stop me riding - food for thought.

Then again - more than likely I just fucked up and didn't see the diesel....meh - so many interpretations of the one event....the mind boggles

I agree with MikeL, What and Jack Rat.....Religion seems to be exempt from being held accountable for the general mayhem it has caused (and still causes) throughout society over the eons. Singly - religious causes are the single biggest result of death the human race has ever encountered.

Any who - this is a bike site....and unless you can prove Jesus (I pronounce it Hey SUS) rode a bike - he has no place on here.

Take it offline and too your sunday school - there EVERYONE will agree with you

Zed
26th January 2004, 17:28
Are you still here Dan? I thought you'd quit bikes!

How come it's alright for you to continue to posts trillions of paragraphs about your beliefs and philosophies but when I post a few sentences I become enemy number one?

In short- unless I am warned by an administrator (which you are not, thank God), I will continue participating in these forums taking advantage of something that people like you have been trying to outlaw for centuries- freedom of speech!

Just put me on your ignore list if you are so disgusted in what i have to say...that goes for all of you who feel the same way.:disapint:


Zed

wkid_one
26th January 2004, 17:35
Ummm - you seem awfully sensitive however none of my posts have personally attacked you .....I don't mind a theological discussion.......never have never will mind. I won't ignore your comments - I think they are funny. :2thumbsup:2thumbsup

As for quitting bikes - you must pay more attention - quitting ROAD bikes.....buying TRAIL bike (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=1580).....:Punk:

PS - religion is a touchy subject and one I have NEVER broached and never would........it is kinda like when McDonalds ask me if I want fries with that - IF I DID I WOULD HAVE ASKED....many people are the same about religion. :sick:

Don't get your knickers in a twist (No hold on cross dressing is a sin??)....I will rephrase - don't get your panties in a bunch (christ, there I go again)........Don't fly off the handle (3rd time lucky) - everyone has been flamed on here......you just chose a doozy of a topic to kick off your foray in to Kiwibiker with. :Oops:

One however notices you are now the most disreputable member (JESUS - I just noticed I have positive rep points - DAMN YOU ALL) :sneaky2:

Hitcher
26th January 2004, 17:45
(JESUS - I just noticed I have positive rep points - DAMN YOU ALL) :sneaky2:
The green light is on at last??? What happened to the charisma bypass??
:gob:

XRNR
26th January 2004, 19:07
...One however notices you are now the most disreputable member (JESUS - I just noticed I have positive rep points - DAMN YOU ALL) :sneaky2:
Let that be a lesson to you, You obviously need to change your topics & start teaching us the evil of our ways if you want to get back on your preferred list.

750Y
26th January 2004, 19:09
actually GOD strongly disapproves of You spending all that money on your own selfishishness when You could be doing something to help the less fortunate of God's flock. hypocrite. now go to church & justify that one with your god. 'oh umm sorry god i know people are in need of food but how do you like my new zx6r??' honestly, grow a brain. i respect your beliefs when you live what you preach but have you got the balls to do it?.

marty
26th January 2004, 19:20
NOOOOOO - that was the parting of the red sea because of his hell burn out....
Then the flood that Noah was caught in was the result of a coolant leak from God's Vincent...

As for the Snake in the Apple Tree - well it was really a Suzuki dealer that got Eve to buy a GSXR when Adam wanted an R1

or an aprilia instead of anything else, cause it was just so friggin cool....

MikeL
26th January 2004, 19:42
STOP!!
I warned you that this would go nowhere (and lead to serious unpleasantness).
Repent now!
Ask for forgiveness!
You have wasted valuable cyberspace with trivial and futile theological argument. Sooner or later someone is going to ask how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
It's all been done before! :laugh:
The nature of the deity, the problem of good and evil, the ultimate purpose of existence - :whocares:

Just tell me where the next best ride is after SH22.
:p

mangell6
26th January 2004, 19:56
Well it is good to see that this thread has gone way off topic :Offtopic: just like I knew it would.

Here is a person asking others who believe like he does to contribute to a MOTORBIKE discussion.

Then it gets hijacked by people not wanting religion stuffed down their throats and not wanting "this sort of thing". Taking offence, when none was given, and all sorts of other crap.

It is sort of like the thread about Harley Davidsons, people started going on how they weren't real bikes and that they should't be on this list (that will get a response). For me I IGNORED the thread as I was not interested in the subject, others went on to promote their opinions and beliefs on the matter, same happened to the scooter topic.

I find it amusing that this thread has gone on for so long.

I challenge the people who have been so verbal to look up the meaning of "RELIGION" http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=religion and have a look at the last two definitions, a lot of people here on this list have a religion based on the fourth definition.

The word "God" or "god" evokes unatural responses, one could argue that it is a base response - I won't as it requires a face to face discussion.

The word "Christian" is no different to the word "European" merely a "label" or "generalisation" that people apply to a given group. As can be seen by the "European Christians" that have responded to Zed. :Pokey:

The way that a lot of people have reacted to this topic is . . . . . .

expected.

:Offtopic: :done:

OK Now that we have crucifed Zed for wanting to have a discussion so that he can "justify" why he wants a new bike, who is going to start the "Politics" topic? Sex is something that people are either for or against and is therefore an easy topic. :)

My current "religion" is riding my bike, amd hope to get Friday off to travel to Coroglen, weather permitting.

Thanks for listening to me, assuming that you got this far :Laugh:

Mike (With no affiliations or connections)

Lou Girardin
26th January 2004, 20:26
Why do born agains and fundamentalists feel that they must spread the word. If you believe, shut up about it and wallow in your self righteousness.
In my case, after 12 years of catholiscism being forced on me, I've hardly been inside a church. Except for weddings, funerals, etc.
Lou

wkid_one
26th January 2004, 20:42
Sex is something that people are either for or against and is therefore an easy topic. :) Who the hell is against SEX - my god.....even the religious amongst us must be pro-sex.....it is in the bible and all....

PLus Mike - you are spoiling our fun......theological arguments are great because everyone is soooooo polarised......and soooo easy to wind up......

I am in the the 'Don't care what you do in the comfort of your own life - but don't tell me the wrongs of mine' group......

I am with Lou - why do those who believe get such pleasure in telling us that don't that we are wrong.

When was the last time someone dressed in a suit (or sim) knocked on your door at either 1: 8.30am on a Sunday, or 2: Dinner Time, and said

' Hi, I am XXXX, (passes copy of Fox Porno mag over) and I am an atheist.....if you practise religion you are wrong - and you are wasting you life on a deity who only wishes to get rich off your tithe and have his minions have their wicked way with you sons before rightful age, then move to the UK and then be extradited back to NZ....denounce your saviour now and join atheism and save your children from a rodgering in the name of your god......denounce now I say.....'

Generally - the only time people get irate about religion is when someone who is a believer force feeds it to you and tells you by not relinquishing control of your life to Hey-Sus - your soul will suffer enternal hell and damnation on your death.

MikeL
26th January 2004, 21:03
PLus Mike - you are spoiling our fun......theological arguments are great because everyone is soooooo polarised......and soooo easy to wind up......



O.K. I give in. :brick:

But watch out. Once I get started, there's no stopping me. When I've finished with deism, theism, eschatology, ontology, Aquinas, neo-Platonism, St Augustine and Gnosticism with a bit of Zoroastrianism and Zen Buddhism thrown in for good measure, you'll be sorry you encouraged me.

:p

mangell6
26th January 2004, 21:12
Sorry to spoil the fun but I couldn't be :buggerd:

:lol: :lol:



Generally - the only time people get irate about religion is when someone who is a believer force feeds it to you and tells you by not relinquishing control of your life to Hey-Sus - your soul will suffer enternal hell and damnation on your death.

Its like those individuals, and we don't have any here, that believe that there is only one bike and they will 'burn' and bury any other bike. Seen it happen when a poor guy had his bike burned, as in deliberately set fire to, at a BEARS meet. His "BEAR" machine had broken down and he wanted to attend the meet. I wonder how he got home??

Lou - You are correct about "Fundamentalists" they have really screwed up such a simple thing, sort of like the LTSA :laugh:

Off now to compose a theology paper on politics for the group. :lol:

Mike

Yamahamaman
26th January 2004, 21:14
When I've finished with deism, theism, eschatology, ontology, Aquinas, neo-Platonism, St Augustine and Gnosticism with a bit of Zoroastrianism and Zen Buddhism thrown in for good measure, you'll be sorry you encouraged me.

:p

You didn't mention "Shurely" :D

wkid_one
26th January 2004, 21:19
Its like those individuals, and we don't have any here, that believe that there is only one bike and they will 'burn' and bury any other bike.
Now I know you are talking shit - try and tell KiwiDan and Kiwistorm there gixxer aren't all that.....I did....LOL

Zed did it earlier also with his ZX6R 1996.....LOL.....it is funny just thinking about it

Zed
26th January 2004, 21:21
Why do born agains and fundamentalists feel that they must spread the word. If you believe, shut up about it and wallow in your self righteousness.
In my case, after 12 years of catholiscism being forced on me, I've hardly been inside a church. Except for weddings, funerals, etc.
Lou
It is with great displeasure sometimes to spread the word to a lost and dying world, for many scorn, scoff, and ridicule the messenger- when it's the message they have a problem with.

Sometimes I want to shutup, but I continue to speak because I am commanded to by a much higher authority than man!

And about self-righteousness... I have the same attitude as the Apostle Paul had- I am "the chiefest of sinners."


Zed

SPman
26th January 2004, 21:23
It was a Triumph.

Or maybe a Priller

:calm:

Zed
26th January 2004, 21:26
Now I know you are talking shit - try and tell KiwiDan and Kiwistorm there gixxer aren't all that.....I did....LOL

Zed did it earlier also with his ZX6R 1996.....LOL.....it is funny just thinking about it

LOL- if you were a more experienced rider Dan I'd listen to you, but alas, you're really only a noob when it comes to motorcycling. Owning an R1 doesn't mean squat!

Ps. how does your girlfriend feel about your addiction to pornography?


Zed

wkid_one
26th January 2004, 21:31
I knew my avatar would raise a comment.

As for being a noob....we'll never know your skill versus mine......but I will note I have never said I am a good rider....ever...you however have.....isn't egotism a sin?

Length in a sport doesn't dictate fuck all.....by the same token I know people who have been riding YEARS and still aren't great (this may be you).........don't underestimate anyone just because of how long they have been doing something. Becareful what you wish for also - as it can often have a frightening habit of coming true.....

I will continue to make no comment as to the virtues of my ability.......I don't feel the need to do so as I am happy in what I accomplished riding

As for owning the r1 - I only had it 4 months......I preferred my VTR to be honest.

All I know is I enjoy riding - point blank - that is all I need to know. I know I enjoyed riding with the people I did...and hope they did with me.....

Unlike you - my pursuit is to be the best rider I can be - I don't care about the person next to me......

You though.....seem hell bent to convincing everyone that you are the second coming of all things righteous......AMEN.....hopefully you are success in your pursuit on behalf of your higher being......

A world to the wise - you, like everyone on this board, are no better than anyone else.....regardless of your faith in whom or what ever.

I am done - this conversation is going in circles.......

Feel free to use my avatars.....

750Y
26th January 2004, 21:42
dayum, i should've listened to you MikeL.
now i find myself insulting people. this religious stuff really gets me going.
gotta take a pill & chill before i insult anyone else. oh well at least we're all passionate about something.

SPman
26th January 2004, 22:39
Feel free to use my avatars.....Hey. you left out the dancing girl in the black dress!

wkid_one
27th January 2004, 06:57
Hey. you left out the dancing girl in the black dress!
jeez - you love her

Hitcher
27th January 2004, 07:48
Just tell me where the next best ride is after SH22.
:p
SH43 seriously rocks!!

MikeL
27th January 2004, 08:05
SH43 seriously rocks!!
:eek:
A bit far to go for a day trip but it's on my priority list for the next tour.
BTW is it fully sealed yet?

KATWYN
27th January 2004, 08:16
It is with great displeasure sometimes to spread the word to a lost and dying world, for many scorn, scoff, and ridicule the messenger- when it's the message they have a problem with.

Sometimes I want to shutup, but I continue to speak because I am commanded to by a much higher authority than man!

And about self-righteousness... I have the same attitude as the Apostle Paul had- I am "the chiefest of sinners."


Zed


THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN ATHIEST IN A FOXHOLE. (when we face life or death or a tragedy who is the first person we all turn to??? just a thought everyone) :sweatdrop

bluninja
27th January 2004, 08:52
Just a little note....in this off topic rave on forum there are lots of posts that have nothing to do with motorcycling at all....Perhaps that's why it's called off topic:D

If you aren't interested in the subject just don't come back for a second read (or third or fourth).

Perhaps the vegan KBers can go and take offence at the hunting and fishing post and rant and swear in there, perhaps the puritans may want to complain at the post of bikini clad women. Perhaps we should censor everyone....and close down the site. Get real !!

To misquote a famous scripture..."If thy PC offend thee, chuck it out"

I think Zed's doing no favours to christianity and his holy cause IMHO, but I respect that he should be able to speak freely in the way he believes.

What I am interested in is whether Zed speeds...and how he squares that with his religous convictions. Especially since he first asked the question.

marty
27th January 2004, 08:53
!

Ps. how does your girlfriend feel about your addiction to pornography?


Zed


my better half loves it - we watch it together all the time......

Coldkiwi
27th January 2004, 11:38
wow. go away for a weekend and what turns up??

Interesting topic and interesting how far off the original (and highly uninsulting if you read it carefully) topic it went. That says all sorts of things about a lot of us (you make up your own mind because I know a lot of you wouldn't agree with what I think and that really wouldn't be productive)

Perhaps as one of the few posts here related to the original question
yes I'm a commited christian
yes I speed. I know I'm breaking the laws set down by the govt of this country. Does that make me a sinner? Thats a huge question as has been hinted at. Zed, please show me some good scripture (maybe here's not the best place) thats fully relevant and I'll think it through and get back to you.
I'm more of the mindset that I have a responsibility to love others and that means acting in a way that is not going to hurt them and would like to think i ride according to that.

Zed, please be aware that you are on a very hot plate with lots of people watching. If you are going to get judgemental about ANYTHING (peoples riding styles/attitudes), be prepared for some well-deserved comments (you know the scriptures on judging others I'm sure). Perhaps you need to come riding with some people here and show us that you live your life the way you talk about it (I for one, would be greatly inspired because I know 600cc sports bikes actively encourage breaking the speed limit despite me praying for safety and wisdom each time I get on).

I find people respond better to the topic of christian morals and actions much better when they come from a humble person who is really trying to live their life according to Christs work. I fear preaching damnation from the street corner drives more people away from a relationship with God than it draws near. Maybe I'm wrong on that but they sure scare me and I believe them!!

duckman
27th January 2004, 11:54
Well done CK - Possibly the best worded escape route for everyone tied up in this topic.

This topic may just be too big for all concerned, perhaps we should let it lie and :Playnice:

Smiles everyone :hug:

Jackrat
27th January 2004, 12:01
Yes well said CK,I have yet to hear you brag about being a better rider than another while at the same time pushing anything.
You sound very much like the type of Christain I can respect,While Zed comes across as a placard waving loony tune.

Racey Rider
27th January 2004, 12:11
I agree with your thoughts CK. As a Christain I have often grapled with this issue of speeding. Did a spell once of not breaking the speed limits at all. Very hard, and as you can imagine,, not sustainable in the long term.
So then did a number of years without a bike, as as soon as I got on one, I knew it meant going faster than 50km/h. But being Christain shouldn't mean we have to give up our passions. Just direct them in suitable areas. (ie. Let's go RACING!)
Being Christain isn't so much about strictly obeying the law, (as the Pharisees did, and Jesus condemned them), But obeying the intent of the law. Saftey.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
I am happy for someone to be coming towards me on a safe bit of road at 130km/h. And so I do too. I'm not happy for a alcohol intoxicated person to be coming towards me at 100km/h, So I don't drink and drive. (well, don't drink at all really). That type of thing.
Racey.

MikeL
27th January 2004, 12:46
Welcome back, CK. How was the camp?? :2thumbsup
Very wise words indeed. True humility is a rare virtue these days.
I was reluctant to join the debate even though there is no subject more important. It's just that it's almost impossible to maintain a level of intellectual argument and it quickly degenerates into a pointless slanging match.

FWIW this is my belief:

"Christianity" is more than the church, and more than scripture.
"Religion" is more than Christianity.
"God" is more than religion.

Narrow, sectarian, fundamentalist/literalist interpretations are at best childish, at worst evil for the real human suffering they produce.

If "religion" is used for social control, psychological manipulation, political expediency or any other purpose other than personal spiritual enlightenment it is a form of exploitation because it is always allied to power and used against the weak.

Open-mindedness, doubt, tolerance and wonder are in the long run more helpful than blind faith.


"There are no atheists in fox-holes". Understandable but scarcely a sound basis for belief. When I was a student I would have described myself as an atheist, determinist, Darwinist. But of course in those days I knew everything. Now I know nothing, but understand more.

wkid_one
27th January 2004, 12:53
Well put CK......I think most people object to religious beliefs being thrust upon them - but few deny the moralistic behaviour it espouses however.

Again I agree with JR

KATWYN
27th January 2004, 13:26
Now I know nothing, but understand more.

Thats good. Thats pretty humble yet very wise!

Big Dog
27th January 2004, 16:57
Zed, Just a few Random thoughts.

If what you say is true then the Nazi's had nothing to fear when they were brought to judgement as they were just following the law of the land.

Who here can say they have heard the word of god directly from him?

What is the point to free will?

The christians of old were martyred not for their beliefs but the fact that they kept making noises about it in a time and place where they were a minority.

Pride cometh before a fall, before you preach to others make sure you have all your ducks in a row. If you are going to make prideful statements in writing be prepared to back them up. To paraphrase from Top Gun, Don't write cheques with your mouth your body can't cash. There is always someone faster, smarter, stronger, better educated or just plain luckier.

Be careful where you take your dogma. Or a budhist may run it over with his Karma.


Everyone, A few More random thoughts.

Have you ever posted something you knew some others might get their hackles up about?

Have you ever posted something you had no idea others might get their hackles up about?


If this has to be a debate perhaps it should be a debate based on opinion / fact as opposed to a charachter assasination thread. I for one welcome the free flow of information / conversation. This site will become very boring very fast if everyone suddenly only dicusses that which everybody already agrees.

Final less random thought. Myself and a couple of others have tried to join in the spirit of the original thread, a theological discussion about how our hobby fits in with our beliefs, yet it is only the noob ho has been harassed for it. Could it be that those who are flaming him are a) really pissed about something else he posted and being a bit one eyed. b) picking on the noob because they don't know him as well as the others. C) fearful of how their own god realy feels and taking it out on the person who brought it up. d) just trying to be controversial on an easy target.

I look forward to future logical or theological posts and hope that the rest will just leave well enough alone. :stoogie:

wkid_one
27th January 2004, 17:02
Have you ever posted something you knew some others might get their hackles up about?

Have you ever posted something you had no idea others might get their hackles up about?
Not me sir - never ever ever have I done that :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I agree - with CK 100% in his post. It is much easier to believe someones actions, than their words.......

Religion, in modern society is always going to be a hot topic regardless of who brings it up.

However, from my understanding - the very nature of Zeds posts is counter-religious, which is more what I was trying to achieve.

I notice how CK didn't get drawn in to a pissing contest - yet Zed did easily....

There is an interesting site about modernising the 10 Commandments - it is well worth a read http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10c2.htm.

One must remember the religion - whilst written in the bible - was a construct of eons ago - it must to viewed and acted upon in the modern world. Zed appears to have lost sight of this IMHO.

As I have said in previous posts - I have nothing against those who a devoutly religious (of any order) - yet Zed is vehement in his apparent depising of those who don't believe? Isn't one of the ten commandments to seek knowledge? Does this not mean to expand our mind to alternate possibilities, ways of thought and even open our mind to the fact that what we believe may be incorrect?

As I have also said - I will not denounce there isn't a higher being - it is just that with the knowledge I have today....I haven't had proof their is?

And before you ask - I did do debating, so this all comes naturally and enjoy it....

MOdern theologists agree that MOST Christians break two of the commandments routinely: the possession of images and failure to observe the Sabbath. So does this mean it is okay to selectively ignore commandments?

IMHO it appears that for many 'true believers' following their deity is an excuse to be blinkered to all other open possibilities the world may offer.

Try this on for size:
Religious liberals might point out that the sets of commandments were drafted some 3 millennia ago for a pre-scientific, religiously intolerant society in which women were considered property, slavery was widespread, there were numerous sins and crimes punished by the death penalty, and polygamy was common. Since the Ten Commandments were written, western culture has changed in dozens of ways. We have, for example:

<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--> <!--msthemelist--> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr><td valign="baseline" width="42">http://www.religioustolerance.org/_themes/nature/nabull1.gif</td><td valign="top" width="100%"><!--mstheme-->become multi-cultural, multi-racial and multi-faith.<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></td></tr> <!--msthemelist--><tr><td valign="baseline" width="42">http://www.religioustolerance.org/_themes/nature/nabull1.gif</td><td valign="top" width="100%"><!--mstheme-->abolished slavery.<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></td></tr> <!--msthemelist--><tr><td valign="baseline" width="42">http://www.religioustolerance.org/_themes/nature/nabull1.gif</td><td valign="top" width="100%"><!--mstheme-->given women the vote.<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></td></tr> <!--msthemelist--><tr><td valign="baseline" width="42">http://www.religioustolerance.org/_themes/nature/nabull1.gif</td><td valign="top" width="100%"><!--mstheme-->approached equality of opportunity for men and women (except in the Armed Forces and religious spheres).<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></td></tr> <!--msthemelist--><tr><td valign="baseline" width="42">http://www.religioustolerance.org/_themes/nature/nabull1.gif</td><td valign="top" width="100%"><!--mstheme-->replaced polygamy with monogamy or serial monogamy.<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></td></tr> <!--msthemelist--><tr><td valign="baseline" width="42">http://www.religioustolerance.org/_themes/nature/nabull1.gif</td><td valign="top" width="100%"><!--mstheme-->essentially eliminated the death penalty in all western countries other than the U.S.<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></td></tr> <!--msthemelist--><tr><td valign="baseline" width="42">http://www.religioustolerance.org/_themes/nature/nabull1.gif</td><td valign="top" width="100%"><!--mstheme-->banned the practice of burning people alive.<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></td></tr> <!--msthemelist--><tr><td valign="baseline" width="42">http://www.religioustolerance.org/_themes/nature/nabull1.gif</td><td valign="top" width="100%"><!--mstheme-->begun to accept people with a minority sexual orientation as deserving of full human rights.<!--mstheme--><!--msthemelist--></td></tr> <!--msthemelist--><tr><td valign="baseline" width="42">http://www.religioustolerance.org/_themes/nature/nabull1.gif</td><td valign="top" width="100%"><!--mstheme-->increased the importance of individual human rights.</td></tr></tbody> </table>
God makes a point about ONLY WORSHIPPING HIM - and thereby makes all other religions exiled from worship - how is it then that aome of the most widely followed religions like Budhism and Hinduism are incorrect??? Or are you going to tell 9bil Chinese - 'sorry guys, your religion is incorrect, follow our god"?

Just food for thought no more no less. I come to this site to provoke conversation - nothing else.....this post isn't meant to offend anyone - just get people thinking

Big Dog
27th January 2004, 17:53
font]</td></tr></tbody> </table>
God makes a point about ONLY WORSHIPPING HIM - and thereby makes all other religions exiled from worship - how is it then that aome of the most widely followed religions like Budhism and Hinduism are incorrect??? Or are you going to tell 9bil Chinese - 'sorry guys, your religion is incorrect, follow our god"?

Just food for thought no more no less. I come to this site to provoke conversation - nothing else.....this post isn't meant to offend anyone - just get people thinking


God no! Wikid is agreeing with me :devil2: as I said earlier the fundamentals of all religions are the same.

Big Dog
27th January 2004, 18:01
My contention is that too many of us "Christians" give in to the temptation to speed ridiculously and ride dangerously, therefore breaking the law of the land and ultimately the law of God.

Oh I neglected to point out earlier god clearly approves of my speeding and disapproves of the excessive taxation by our government because......On several of my bikes now including the one I now ride I have been travelling along a license shredding speeds when my bike inexplicably slowed... passed a camera or police car.... and sped back up without the slightest alteration in my controls. Curiously enough this only happens when The Man is about.

God also prefers that I ride a motorbike.... Because I have had three tickets in 15 years all for speeding (60 in a 50 zone) all in cars :o

If this is not clear evidence that god prefers I ride.. I have no understanding of the universe at all. :crazy:

wkid_one
27th January 2004, 18:26
You want evidence that God wants us to ride - he wouldn't have provided us with the insight to place the internal combustion engine in a bicycle in the first place if it wasn't part of his bigger plan.

bluninja
27th January 2004, 19:16
FWIW all (the christian) gods laws and instructions are about providing us personally and socially a template to live a fantastic life. Most laws based on a biblical basis appear to be crimes against another person (violence, injury, death, theft, breaking of oaths and promises). Speeding as such, is a victimless crime, so doesn't fall within that scope.

If we were to follow the scripture Zed originally posted and adhere to all laws, because they are approved by god, then we fall into the nazi question again (as I posted originally, and BigDog repeated). Also consider this; were the laws to change (revert?) to something like 'first night' where a mans bride had to spend her first night with the local baron, would you go along with this law...or would you resist it because it would be wrong.....or would you become a baron:whistle:

As for are 9 billion other people wrong? Who knows....I believe I'm trying to do the right thing. I leave everyone else to make their own choices, as does god.

Andrew
27th January 2004, 19:37
I believe I'm trying to do the right thing. I leave everyone else to make their own choices, as does god.

I agree :msn-wink:

Lou Girardin
27th January 2004, 20:01
'Commanded by a higher power?'. I'm going to stop now, that guy may be armed!
Lou

Zed
27th January 2004, 20:21
If we were to follow the scripture Zed originally posted and adhere to all laws, because they are approved by god, then we fall into the nazi question again (as I posted originally, and BigDog repeated). Also consider this; were the laws to change (revert?) to something like 'first night' where a mans bride had to spend her first night with the local baron, would you go along with this law...or would you resist it because it would be wrong.....or would you become a baron:whistle: .
Well Mr Ninja, the "powers that be which are ordained of God" are actually a reference to every authority that God uses in His master plan, not only governments. That includes the employer over the employee and the husband being the head of the home as examples...

If one of these ordained powers broke God's law, then you and I, the employee and the "poor wife", would not be subject unto that power- it would therefore be okay to resist it! Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Hilter is an excellent example- he was another anti-christ that wanted to be KING over the Third Reich (Kingdom/Empire). He broke most of Gods laws while he was in power...thankfully God stopped him in his tracks and didn't allow him to go on and be the world ruler that he was aspiring to be!


As for are 9 billion other people wrong? Who knows....I believe I'm trying to do the right thing. I leave everyone else to make their own choices, as does god.
So how do you know what is the right thing and what is the wrong thing? If we all make ourselves our own final authority like you we end up with arguments, threatenings, murders, rape & pilage, & ultimately war!...and isn't that where we are today? It's mankind causing all of these major problems in our society and the world because everyone does that which is right in his own eyes! Stop blaming all the mess on God and let's take some responsability ourselves.

As a Christian I have submitted myself to the final authority of God and His laws. Yes, sometimes I disobey and do what I want to do (especially on the road)...but I have found out over and over again that Gods ways are much higher & improved than mine, or any other mans for that matter!

Are 9 billion (more like 6) other people wrong...no, not ALL of them! :msn-wink:


Zed

SPman
27th January 2004, 20:36
.......might point out that the sets of commandments were drafted some 3 millennia ago for a pre-scientific, religiously intolerant society in which women were considered property, slavery was widespread, there were numerous sins and crimes punished by the death penalty, and polygamy was common.

So....nothing much has changed then!

Zed
27th January 2004, 20:40
So....nothing much has changed then!
Please name your source?


Zed

georgedubyabush
27th January 2004, 20:57
Hilter is an excellent example- he was another anti-christ that wanted to be KING over the Third Reich (Kingdom/Empire). He broke most of Gods laws while he was in power...thankfully God stopped him in his tracks and didn't allow him to go on and be the world ruler that he was aspiring to be!


Thankfully? Stopped him in his tracks?? Didn't allow him????
About 50 million dead, the destruction of most of Europe and much of Asia and Africa, near annialation of an entire race. Global death and destruction on a scale never seen before.
Hmmm. A day late and a buck short I say.

MikeL
27th January 2004, 21:22
Stop blaming all the mess on God and let's take some responsability ourselves

As a Christian I have submitted myself to the final authority of God and His laws. Yes, sometimes I disobey and do what I want to do (especially on the road)...but I have found out over and over again that Gods ways are much higher & improved than mine, or any other mans for that matter!

And this is precisely why these arguments go nowhere. You talk about "God's laws" and "God's ways" with absolute certainty, as if they were an objective, demonstrable entity separate from men's interpretations. Where did they come from? Did God communicate them to you directly and personally? In this case they are the same as your conscience (but mine might be different). Or do you rely on holy writ? In which case you are remarkably selective in what you obey. When was the last time you joined in stoning an adultress? Are you careful not to wear any clothes of mixed fibres? And of course, never eat meat from an animal that isn't cloven-footed and chews the cud.
Your reference to God and Hitler would be laughable if it didn't remind one of the post-Holocaust soul-searching which made a good many Jews question the basis of their religion...
"Murders, rape, pillage...war..." I think if you read a bit of history you'll find that as much of this was done in the name of God as through men's greed, lust and savagery.
And finally, think about what your commitment to unquestioning acceptance of "God's law" means. Rather than taking responsibility it implies the opposite. You don't have to think deeply about moral and philosophical issues - God has done all the hard work for you. He has all the answers. Euthanasia, abortion, homosexuality, just look up what the Good Book says. And your life, death, salvation, little corner of heaven - the whole lot is neatly packaged and available for purchase at a religious supermarket near where you live. So much more convenient than having to think for yourself.

wkid_one
27th January 2004, 21:36
I have sooo been trying not to respond to this AGAIN......

However I gave in.

Zed - I would love to live in a world of blissful ignorance that you appear to live in (yes yes - tell me because I don't believe I am the one that is ignorant - ra ra ra ra)
However- Christianity needs to develop a modern thinking.....it still appears to providing a edict that isn't in tune with the modern situation.

Christianity was all well in good - when it was the principal and sole religion comprising a society - HOWEVER it now is essentially a bigotted practise in the multi-deity society we live in now.

Whilst it doesn't condone racism - it considers any other religion a sin? Is this not an oxymoron? Isn't it one and the same?

Christianity didn't become the 'proudest' religion based on the faith of the people, it became so on the blood other less 'militarily strong' societies. It came about through a fear of the church that the people would turn to alternate 'religions'.

God's Way and his Will have been used as cop outs and excuses by those wishing to achieve their own ends for years. It is also an easy excuse to take no accountability for the direction of your own life and ownership of the consquences of your own actions. How many times do you see Prisoners on death row suddenly finding redemption in the Lord?

Consider NZ - who are we to tell the Maori that their beliefs in Tane etc are false? Ohh that's right - they were less educated than us?? Education is a derivative from religious constructs, and was until recent times in the scheme of the human races restricted to those of the Cloth. Why? Because knowledge was and still is power. By restricting who had access to it - the Clergy could better control the masses....

IF their was a God - I would be interested to ask him if he felt our interpretation of 'his way' was accurate. I think you would find his answer would be no. Our time on this planet has largely been a bloody and terrible affair - and again....much is this is done in the name of religion.

As NZ becomes more and more multi-cultural, the diversity of religious beliefs will increase....is this a bad thing? Take Scientology or ChristaDelphianism......are these not more apt because they bring the religious beliefs in to the modern world and time?

I have no doubt that those practising most religions contribute positively to society - however one can still make a positive contribution without being religious - the two are mutually exclusive. As there are non-practising degenerates in society - their are also many practising degenerates (refer the press)

To follow religion and have a belief system that you fully appreciate is admirable - to do so blindly to other ideas/options stupid!

This is also not a personal attack before you start in as per usual....merely a rebut of your Statements........

I prefer CK's approach- where he is happy to converse via email in a rational, open-minded and thought-provoking manner.....you on the other hand, aren't doing any favours for the religious cause

You must also remember - I have never denied God's existence - I am merely asking for more proof

I would rather we take this discussion offline - as it is taking away from this board. my email is wkid_one@xtra.co.nz

Zed
27th January 2004, 21:53
Zed, Just a few Random thoughts.

If what you say is true then the Nazi's had nothing to fear when they were brought to judgement as they were just following the law of the land.
Their major mistake was that they didn't fear God!
Truth- if the law of the land contradicts Gods law then you are not obligated to follow it!
Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.


Who here can say they have heard the word of god directly from him?
Once John the beloved finished penning the words of the Holy Spirit in the closing book of the Bible, Revelation, Gods book was complete! Gods word is in writing and can be read by anyone who pleases to know it...He doesn't audibly speak with men like He did when the Bible was incomplete. Today God communicates to believers through the consistent reading and diligent study of the Bible. The Bible is a spiritual book authored & interpreted by the Spirit of God and communicated to those who are "spiritually" born-again. If you are not a believer then the Bible will seem to you as only a story book filled with foolish fables & old wives tales.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.



What is the point to free will?
Free will is a gift from God. It is a blessing. If the Lord wanted robots who obeyed him then it would be so...but He wants man to freewillingly choose him as his God. Therefore, man has two choices of either accepting or rejecting God in his or her lifetime. In eternity there will be God and all those who freely chose Him as their God during their lifetime, they will be living together in perfection in a new heaven and earth wherein dwelleth righteousness- the ones who freewillingly chose to reject God during their lifetime will not be there...that is Gods plan!


The christians of old were martyred not for their beliefs but the fact that they kept making noises about it in a time and place where they were a minority.
Read and study Church history from a Protestant's perspective and you will find that they were killed for what they believed and especially for what they wouldn't believe!
And making noise as a Christian is a direct commandment from God- do you know what the "Great Commission" is?


Pride cometh before a fall, before you preach to others make sure you have all your ducks in a row. If you are going to make prideful statements in writing be prepared to back them up. To paraphrase from Top Gun, Don't write cheques with your mouth your body can't cash. There is always someone faster, smarter, stronger, better educated or just plain luckier.
Did you know that you quoted scripture? Proverbs 16:18 ¶Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
I'm sorry that my posts portray pride. When and if you get to know me you will find out that I'm no prouder than you about somethings we are very passionate about.
Oh, and I probably came across as preaching to you because I'm a preacher!:msn-wink:


Be careful where you take your dogma. Or a budhist may run it over with his Karma.
Lol...& I won't be bagging any other religions on this list...several people have already put words in my mouth (not mentioning any names DAN).


Thanks for the comments,

Zed

Zed
27th January 2004, 22:13
And this is precisely why these arguments go nowhere. You talk about "God's laws" and "God's ways" with absolute certainty, as if they were an objective, demonstrable entity separate from men's interpretations. Where did they come from? Did God communicate them to you directly and personally? In this case they are the same as your conscience (but mine might be different). Or do you rely on holy writ? In which case you are remarkably selective in what you obey. When was the last time you joined in stoning an adultress? Are you careful not to wear any clothes of mixed fibres? And of course, never eat meat from an animal that isn't cloven-footed and chews the cud...

Yes Mike I do rely soley on holy writ! God has spent the last 10 years of my life convincing me that I can rely on it wholeheartedly. There is more than a lifetime of learning and application in that book!
I've already honestly admitted that I am selective with what I obey at times...like any human being.

As far as the stoning, wearing certain materials, and dietary laws you mentioned- there is a NEW testament now Mike, and those practices are a part of the OLD one! (time doesn't allow me to detail this any further- email me if you want proof?)

Forgive me if I havn't addressed your whole thread...it's much work keeping up with all you guys (I do have a life off my pc ;) )


Zed

Zed
27th January 2004, 22:21
I have sooo been trying not to respond to this AGAIN......

However I gave in.

Zed - I would love to live in a world of blissful ignorance that you appear to live in (yes yes - tell me because I don't believe I am the one that is ignorant - ra ra ra ra)
However- Christianity needs to develop a modern thinking.....it still appears to providing a edict that isn't in tune with the modern situation.

Christianity was all well in good - when it was the principal and sole religion comprising a society - HOWEVER it now is essentially a bigotted practise in the multi-deity society we live in now.

Whilst it doesn't condone racism - it considers any other religion a sin? Is this not an oxymoron? Isn't it one and the same?

Christianity didn't become the 'proudest' religion based on the faith of the people, it became so on the blood other less 'militarily strong' societies. It came about through a fear of the church that the people would turn to alternate 'religions'.

God's Way and his Will have been used as cop outs and excuses by those wishing to achieve their own ends for years. It is also an easy excuse to take no accountability for the direction of your own life and ownership of the consquences of your own actions. How many times do you see Prisoners on death row suddenly finding redemption in the Lord?

Consider NZ - who are we to tell the Maori that their beliefs in Tane etc are false? Ohh that's right - they were less educated than us?? Education is a derivative from religious constructs, and was until recent times in the scheme of the human races restricted to those of the Cloth. Why? Because knowledge was and still is power. By restricting who had access to it - the Clergy could better control the masses....

IF their was a God - I would be interested to ask him if he felt our interpretation of 'his way' was accurate. I think you would find his answer would be no. Our time on this planet has largely been a bloody and terrible affair - and again....much is this is done in the name of religion.

As NZ becomes more and more multi-cultural, the diversity of religious beliefs will increase....is this a bad thing? Take Scientology or ChristaDelphianism......are these not more apt because they bring the religious beliefs in to the modern world and time?

I have no doubt that those practising most religions contribute positively to society - however one can still make a positive contribution without being religious - the two are mutually exclusive. As there are non-practising degenerates in society - their are also many practising degenerates (refer the press)

To follow religion and have a belief system that you fully appreciate is admirable - to do so blindly to other ideas/options stupid!

This is also not a personal attack before you start in as per usual....merely a rebut of your Statements........

I prefer CK's approach- where he is happy to converse via email in a rational, open-minded and thought-provoking manner.....you on the other hand, aren't doing any favours for the religious cause

You must also remember - I have never denied God's existence - I am merely asking for more proof

I would rather we take this discussion offline - as it is taking away from this board. my email is wkid_one@xtra.co.nz
Hi Dan,

I read this out aloud to my wife...we had a good old chuckle together. :laugh:


Man you do have a great way with words, very eloquent at times- you would make an excellent preacher! Interested?


Zed

Slingshot
27th January 2004, 22:42
I'm a non-believer, but I'm starting to wonder if there is a god.

When you think about it, how could evolution create a human being that fits so perfectly on a motorbike...I mean our arms have been designed to have just the right lenght to reach the handle bars, we can grip the bars with our perfectly designed hands and we can twist the throttle with our amazing wrists. Our ankles pivot for gear changes and our knees bend so our feet will rest on the footpegs!

How could evolution have created us so perfectly :bleh: :lol: :2thumbsup

SPman
27th January 2004, 23:27
Aint Fundamentalism great. You can pick out all the bits from a particular book that suit the way you think,then decide that it is the ONLY way to live a life and treat anyone else who doesnt fervently beleive in what you believe, as, somehow, blinded/inferior/sinful/benighted/et al., lacking YOUR SUREFIRE way to redemption. Everyone else is wrong and by God, you'll show them the error of their ways! - not aimed at you in particular, Zed.
Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh, etc, even sub sects of the main beliefs......they all get so intense and full of intolerance for any criticism of their beliefs, that many are prepared to kill for it.
They make all the noise and the quiet rational believers just go quietly about their ways, doing good and being lumped in with the loonies for their trouble!
Doesnt seem right, really!
Think I'll become a fundamentalist Code-ite, studying the good books of Twist of the Wrist! :rockon:

Ogri
28th January 2004, 05:48
I've been following this for a couple of days now.

Had a good laugh...............followed by :gob: is this guy for real?

Come to the conclusion that he's a tosser and I can't be arsed to follow this anymore - going back to the real world.

marty
28th January 2004, 07:43
you and me both Ogri. Although I'm sure I was blasphemous when I got stopped for lane splitting at 125 between Cambridge and Hamilton last night.

bluninja
28th January 2004, 09:46
So how do you know what is the right thing and what is the wrong thing? If we all make ourselves our own final authority like you we end up with arguments, threatenings, murders, rape & pilage, & ultimately war!...and isn't that where we are today? It's mankind causing all of these major problems in our society and the world because everyone does that which is right in his own eyes! Stop blaming all the mess on God and let's take some responsability ourselves.

Before you try and remove the speck from my eye.....(you know the rest I'm sure). I am totally responsible for my actions (and inactions), and I will be judged against those at the appropriate time; and not by you :)

How do I know what is the right thing and what is the wrong thing? Scripture, prayer, holy spirit....testing both my intentions and the results. The bible in it's current form is not very old. Men made a choice as to what scriptures should be included and what should not. Where they right? Did god make them infallible in their choices? Because I am responsible for my choices I test things and make a decision based on my belief of what is right and wrong. I do not pass the buck to anyone in the past who may have made a mistake and is leading me astray.

You still haven't answered your own question about speeding and how that squares with your beliefs. I would be interested to hear your response.

Zed
28th January 2004, 10:23
Before you try and remove the speck from my eye.....(you know the rest I'm sure). I am totally responsible for my actions (and inactions), and I will be judged against those at the appropriate time; and not by you :)

How do I know what is the right thing and what is the wrong thing? Scripture, prayer, holy spirit....testing both my intentions and the results. The bible in it's current form is not very old. Men made a choice as to what scriptures should be included and what should not. Where they right? Did god make them infallible in their choices? Because I am responsible for my choices I test things and make a decision based on my belief of what is right and wrong. I do not pass the buck to anyone in the past who may have made a mistake and is leading me astray.

You still haven't answered your own question about speeding and how that squares with your beliefs. I would be interested to hear your response.
Gidday again,

Please let me make one thing clear to you- I am not judging you guys despite how it seems. Us Christians are always falsely accused of doing that when God and the Bible are discussed with non-believers...I think the conscience of the hearers is invloved here?

And as far as breaking the law on my bike I have already made an honest admission that I too am guilty!! There has been some misunderstanding with you lot- my original post was intended to get feedback from other Christians on this site and how they feel about this issue...I simply wanted to relate to them, that's all. Next time I'll word it differently so I won't get labelled as having an "holier than thou" attitude, because I don't.


Zed

bluninja
28th January 2004, 11:00
Gidday again,

Please let me make one thing clear to you- I am not judging you guys despite how it seems. Us Christians are always falsely accused of doing that when God and the Bible are discussed with non-believers...I think the conscience of the hearers is invloved here?

And as far as breaking the law on my bike I have already made an honest admission that I too am guilty!! There has been some misunderstanding with you lot- my original post was intended to get feedback from other Christians on this site and how they feel about this issue...I simply wanted to relate to them, that's all. Next time I'll word it differently so I won't get labelled as having an "holier than thou" attitude, because I don't.


Zed
Fair enough.....and hopefully I did answer the specific question you posed within my ramblings.

Racey Rider
28th January 2004, 13:23
So Zed, CK and I have given you our thoughts on speeding from a Christian point of view. What are your thoughts about it?
At what point does our speed become sin?!
At 101km/h on the open road? The legalists approach.
At 111k as this allows for the well known buffer?
At some undetermined speed that makes it unsafe for the conditions?
Other?

By Points for those interested:
What is sin? Anything outside the will of God.
:whocares: about sin? We as Christians do, in our lives as it affects our daily closeness with God.

What does that matter? It doesn't matter as far as the after life is concerned, as the Christians sin is paid for by accepting Jesus Christ as "Deit Payer" for our sin, - past, present and future. But it does make us weak Christians in the present, not being effectively used by God to do his will. Perhaps why the "Church" is so wishy-washy, and not affective in todays world, - to blasay about sin in there lives.
PS. The above is my interpretation of the bible. Meant only to be helpful to anyone wondering.

So to us Christians, the question (Does God approve of your motorcycle riding?), is an important one.

What the * are you going on about? Anyone who would like to know more about what
we're going on about can PM me or maybe Coldkiwi, or yes, even maybe Zed
Racey.

Big Dog
28th January 2004, 18:16
Their major mistake was that they didn't fear God!
Truth- if the law of the land contradicts Gods law then you are not obligated to follow it!
Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.



I don't get it does not the this not contradict your earlier statement about breaking the law being a sin? Where in the bible does it say thou shalt not speed? How would I know unless got told me that speeding is sinning?


Read and study Church history from a Protestant's perspective and you will find that they were killed for what they believed and especially for what they wouldn't believe!

Do you think that would have happened at great expense to the governments of the time if they had gone about their business in a diplomatic way?

And making noise as a Christian is a direct commandment from God- do you know what the "Great Commission" is?

Not in any bible I ever read, there are only the ten you know.


Did you know that you quoted scripture? Proverbs 16:18 ¶Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Duh.

I'm sorry that my posts portray pride. When and if you get to know me you will find out that I'm no prouder than you about somethings we are very passionate about.


So where is the debate? All I hear is sermonising.

Oh, and I probably came across as preaching to you because I'm a preacher!:msn-wink:

So you must be aware that diplomacy is the key ingredient in any sales pitch. (after "qualifying your prospect"). You seem a little quick to the offensive for a minister (I don't mean to be be offensive just objectively curious, but you lack the patience normaly associated with men of god.)
" for god said go forth and lie down with the lions, for the meek shall inherit the earth." Can't remember who but god said it to the disciple who was fed to the lions for treason. I used to have it as a book mark .

Out of curiosity which bible do you refer to? Either you paraphrase a lot or it is not one I am familiar with.

Big Dog
28th January 2004, 18:17
Oh I neglected to point out earlier god clearly approves of my speeding and disapproves of the excessive taxation by our government because......On several of my bikes now including the one I now ride I have been travelling along a license shredding speeds when my bike inexplicably slowed... passed a camera or police car.... and sped back up without the slightest alteration in my controls. Curiously enough this only happens when The Man is about.

God also prefers that I ride a motorbike.... Because I have had three tickets in 15 years all for speeding (60 in a 50 zone) all in cars :o

If this is not clear evidence that god prefers I ride.. I have no understanding of the universe at all. :crazy:
Still awaiting your rebuttal Zed.

Big Dog
28th January 2004, 18:21
Further to the above, I am not being critical of this thread just questioning why it was broached in such a argumentative way and asking Zed to clarify his statements, without contradicting himself would be good. If anyone would like to offer me a coherent discussion on the topic at hand feel free to e-mail me Bigdogonamotabike@hotmail.com

wkid_one
28th January 2004, 18:25
Honestly - haven't we now done this to death?

As for being a preacher......welll.....I will say nothing.

Big Dog - I like your post.

Racey/CK - I prefer your approach to Christianity in the 21st Century - much more pragmatic

Religion is something someone has to choose - not have it RAMMED DOWN THEIR THROAT.....look what happened in Medi-evil Europe when the church tried this - the peasants had a nasty habit of revolting against the cloth.

I will say no more on this - because unlike Racey and CK, Zed, you have a closed mind to everything other than what you say....(A virtue I am sure God disapproves it - Thalt shall seek knowledge - if I recall)

Zed
28th January 2004, 18:52
Oh I neglected to point out earlier god clearly approves of my speeding and disapproves of the excessive taxation by our government because......On several of my bikes now including the one I now ride I have been travelling along a license shredding speeds when my bike inexplicably slowed... passed a camera or police car.... and sped back up without the slightest alteration in my controls. Curiously enough this only happens when The Man is about.

God also prefers that I ride a motorbike.... Because I have had three tickets in 15 years all for speeding (60 in a 50 zone) all in cars :o

If this is not clear evidence that god prefers I ride.. I have no understanding of the universe at all. :crazy:

Still awaiting your rebuttal Zed.

Hi Big Dog,

I don't find anything in your post to rebut?

Who am I to comment on your relationship between you and your god? By what you said above it sounds like you are fairly aware of his presence in your life!


Zed

Zed
28th January 2004, 19:34
Their major mistake was that they didn't fear God!
Truth- if the law of the land contradicts Gods law then you are not obligated to follow it!
Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.


I don't get it does not the this not contradict your earlier statement about breaking the law being a sin? Where in the bible does it say thou shalt not speed? How would I know unless got told me that speeding is sinning?

No contradiction at all. There are two types of law- those from God and those from man. Yes, God has ordained the powers that be, but if those powers set up laws that contradict Gods laws then there is no obligation for the Christian to obey them.
I think the argument of whether or not speeding is a sin is childish.

1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.



Read and study Church history from a Protestant's perspective and you will find that they were killed for what they believed and especially for what they wouldn't believe!

Do you think that would have happened at great expense to the governments of the time if they had gone about their business in a diplomatic way?

They were being diplomatic! It was when these governments passed laws contradicting Gods laws such as "freedom of speech" and "freedom of religion", that many were made martyrs- for these saints knew that even though the law of the land said not to preach and teach Christ they still were commanded to do so by God! Read Pilgrims Progress and Foxes Book of Martyrs for the historical proof.


And making noise as a Christian is a direct commandment from God- do you know what the "Great Commission" is?

Not in any bible I ever read, there are only the ten you know.

The Great Commission:
Matthew 28:18-20 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

& the parallel passage in another gospel-

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Fact: the Holy Bible is filled with 100's of direct commandments from God to man. The 10 commandments were the basis or frame of the laws given to the nation of Israel in the Old Testament. Only some of these 10 were reiterated for application in the New Testament.
Jesus Christ himself (being God) gave new commandments:
John 13:34-35 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.



Did you know that you quoted scripture? Proverbs 16:18 ¶Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Duh.

I'm sorry that my posts portray pride. When and if you get to know me you will find out that I'm no prouder than you about somethings we are very passionate about.


So where is the debate? All I hear is sermonising.

Oh, and I probably came across as preaching to you because I'm a preacher!:msn-wink:

So you must be aware that diplomacy is the key ingredient in any sales pitch. (after "qualifying your prospect"). You seem a little quick to the offensive for a minister (I don't mean to be be offensive just objectively curious, but you lack the patience normaly associated with men of god.)
" for god said go forth and lie down with the lions, for the meek shall inherit the earth." Can't remember who but god said it to the disciple who was fed to the lions for treason. I used to have it as a book mark.

Umm, who's being judgemental now? And just how many ministers have you known personally to be able to say that sir?

The scripture you mentioned above is a mixture of two portions- "Daniel and the Lions den" from the Old Testament and the "meek shall inherit the earth" part is from a discourse Jesus gave to his disciples commonly known as the Beatitudes.


Out of curiosity which bible do you refer to? Either you paraphrase a lot or it is not one I am familiar with.
I do not paraphrase at all. All my facts come from the Authorised Version of the Bible- the King James 1611.


Regards,

Zed

Zed
28th January 2004, 20:19
I'm a non-believer, but I'm starting to wonder if there is a god.

When you think about it, how could evolution create a human being that fits so perfectly on a motorbike...I mean our arms have been designed to have just the right lenght to reach the handle bars, we can grip the bars with our perfectly designed hands and we can twist the throttle with our amazing wrists. Our ankles pivot for gear changes and our knees bend so our feet will rest on the footpegs!

How could evolution have created us so perfectly :bleh: :lol: :2thumbsup
Lol, that's funny scooter boy...but the "theory" of evolution denys a creation! Creation requires a Creator- and the obvious design of everything, including mankind, is a proof that God is real!

Genesis 1:1 ¶In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

BTW- Evolution is a recognised religion, because it requires faith to believe in...were you there in the beginning when this imaginary "big bang" happened? Of course not, so you must believe this happened by faith...if you believe that everything in life is here by "chance", as this theory states, then I envy your faith!

Didn't you know that religion has been taught in the NZ school system for decades under the guise of this theory!


Zed

Racey Rider
28th January 2004, 20:41
I think the argument of whether or not speeding is a sin is childish.


HELLO! :crazy:
Weren't you the one that asked the question in your first post ?!! :brick:

Slingshot
28th January 2004, 20:59
OMG...I can't believe my attempt at wit was replied to by scripture :lol:


Lol, that's funny scooter boy...but the "theory" of evolution denys a creation! Creation requires a Creator- and the obvious design of everything, including mankind, is a proof that God is real!
That proves nothing :brick:


Genesis 1:1 ¶In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Don't believe everything you read! :yes:


BTW- Evolution is a recognised religion, because it requires faith to believe in...were you there in the beginning when this imaginary "big bang" happened? Of course not, so you must believe this happened by faith...if you believe that everything in life is here by "chance", as this theory states, then I envy your faith!
At no point did I say I believed in evolution, to be honest I don't really care where we came from. I also do not agree with your statement that Evolution is a religion, the Collins English Dictionary defines the word Religion as "system of belief in and worship of a supernatural power or god" :no:

Let me pose a question to you Zed...where do the dinosaurs fit in the whole creation theory? :whistle:

For the record, I am both agnostic & an atheist.

marty
28th January 2004, 21:01
Well i've kept pretty quiet in here, as I have difficulty believing in God, some of the things that I have been exposed to have made me seriously question why a greater power would allow those things to happen to a person. I have read all of the posts though, and there are some good arguments for and against. Sorry Zed but I can't handle the use of quoted scripture as a basis of arguement - I see it as an easy way to avoid addressing the issue with your own input.

Now, I'm not intersested in getting into a lengthy discussion, the question was 'does GOD approve of your riding'. No probably not. Will I be punished therefore for displeasing him/her? Maybe. If I fall off/get a ticket I could blame it on something else (summary justice for speeding?), but at the end of the day I will take responsibility for my own actions.

Zed
28th January 2004, 21:20
HELLO! :crazy:
Weren't you the one that asked the question in your first post ?!! :brick:



My original post wasn't aimed at determining whether or not speeding was a sin. I assumed that the reader would know that it was!:blank:


Zed

marty
28th January 2004, 21:47
actually i remember now - i didn't blasphemise the other day when i got stopped. i just said 'fuck'. turned out the highway unit snapped a gang member on his harley at 180, (who i also saw going the other way), then saw me splitting and thought - i'll give him a wind up. thought about taking off, but he was clever enough to lull me into a false sense of 'i got away with it', and snuck up behind me without his light bar running. he then had the cheek to ask if the RS was just a 'tricked up RGV'. now that's blasphemy.

LB
29th January 2004, 04:51
A bit far to go for a day trip but it's on my priority list for the next tour.
BTW is it fully sealed yet?
No, there's about 12kms of gravel in the Tangarakau Gorge. The times we've been through it's always been really good, hard packed clay with hardly any gravel on it.

I'm with Hitcher in this one, SH43 is great. If you do it, try doing SH41 as well. Let me know when you do it, we may try and join up with you.

MikeL
29th January 2004, 08:00
Thanks Lynda. I'll certainly be in touch before I come down that way again. It would be great to meet up with you and other Wlg riders. Don't know when that will be, though - will probably have to wait until my next holiday (Easter) although I may be in Sydney then.
So many roads, so little time!!
And there's still the South Island to do...

BTW thanks for your help in hijacking this thread...
:p

bluninja
29th January 2004, 09:06
For all you believers in God, is He happy with your motorcycling?

My contention is that too many of us "Christians" give in to the temptation to speed ridiculously and ride dangerously, therefore breaking the law of the land and ultimately the law of God.

Something to think about. Discuss?...sure.

No doubt there will be some scoffers! :baby:


Zed
Zed, many people have responded both on and off topic. But you still refuse to add to the debate on the subject you started, other than accepting that you too have sinned. Several people have asked. So once again, I put your own question back to you.

Before you quote any more scripture, remember that Lucifer (the deceiver) is depicted in the bible (old and new stestament) of using the scripture, and gods words to his own ends. Your evasiveness on the question you posed, and your conflicting posts, make you appear more agitator and deceiver than christian.

So fess up (confession is good for the soul).

Dave
29th January 2004, 09:23
If one took this at face value, then the nazis should be exonerated because they were following the laws of the land, and thus god. And it also makes one question as to why god would put such powers in place to heap such suffering on the world.

There is enough scripture in the bible that can be taken out of context and perverted for any purpose. Perhaps the following scripture could indicate that we should all ride like maniacs, hating every moment of it, until we die??;)

The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. John 12:25

Perhaps instead of focussing on speeding and breaking mans laws you might consider keeping all the law :shit:

The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself. Galatians 5:14"

If posts like this keep popping up then it might need it's own section of the forum:sleep: Perhaps this would be better discussed ina christian forum rather than a biking one (albeit with christian bikers contributing)....or perhaps this is part of your evangelising????:innocent:

Who's the man!
-Yeah, go blue. :bash:

Hitcher
29th January 2004, 09:34
Zed, many people have responded both on and off topic. But you still refuse to add to the debate on the subject you started, other than accepting that you too have sinned. Several people have asked. So once again, I put your own question back to you.

Before you quote any more scripture, remember that Lucifer (the deceiver) is depicted in the bible (old and new stestament) of using the scripture, and gods words to his own ends. Your evasiveness on the question you posed, and your conflicting posts, make you appear more agitator and deceiver than christian.

So fess up (confession is good for the soul).
Woo hoo, go Blu!!

Zed
29th January 2004, 11:39
Zed, many people have responded both on and off topic. But you still refuse to add to the debate on the subject you started, other than accepting that you too have sinned. Several people have asked. So once again, I put your own question back to you.

Before you quote any more scripture, remember that Lucifer (the deceiver) is depicted in the bible (old and new stestament) of using the scripture, and gods words to his own ends. Your evasiveness on the question you posed, and your conflicting posts, make you appear more agitator and deceiver than christian.

So fess up (confession is good for the soul).
Mr Ninja,

To us believers this original discussion is no debate- but a reality for every motorcyclist here! The temptations to "sin" and break the law on a motorcycle are very strong...there is no debate. You and others have turned it into a debate because you don't adhere to the same belief system, which is okay, but leave us Christians to discuss it will you!

With all due respect, you sound very offended in my posts..."par for the course". I have been gracious with what I've said so far which is more than I can say for your recent attacks on me.

I have deliberately refrained from using any scripture here in accordance to your wishes. Now please respect my wishes and don't comment any more on this particular discussion.


Zed

Lou Girardin
29th January 2004, 11:47
At the risk of indulging in a little schadenfreude, I was amused to see that 'pop star' Daniel Bedingfield is being charged over his little accident in Whangarei. Not only did God not protect one of his chosen ones, but this committed Christian will be a minor criminal as well as a sinner. That's double jeopardy. The rest of us only get punished once.
Lou

Coldkiwi
29th January 2004, 11:59
so justice prevails lou? where's the problem with that? if we screw up (presuming he is indeed at fault), why shouldn't we get punished? Justice is a good thing!

On the larger melee going on here, can I say that I think no progress is being made on all the issues raised (other than Mike finding out that tangarakau gorge is still gravelled!!).

Perhaps if we all look carefully at the point of our posts (this thread only, not a blnaket statement) before adding them, we might loose a bit of the niggle and get back to the point... or indeed decide that we're on completely different tracks and that its pointless to continue.
There's no point in christians (or anyone) adding lengthy diatribe and scripture to a forum to try and prove God's existence (or creation or God's forgiveness for all etc.) to people who don't believe (or don't want to believe) in Him.
If anyone is serious about making philosophical/theological headway, send a PM to your fellow debater and organise a friendly meeting over a coffee!!

MikeL
29th January 2004, 12:34
Hey CK you're spot on. What I find very sad about this ongoing dialogue of the deaf is the missed potential for some genuine open debate about something vitally important.
Although not a Christian in the conventional sense I have read and thought enough to know that behind the distracting facade of scripture-quoting, finger-pointing, hell-fire threatening and smug hypocrisy there is something real and valuable and worthwhile. Tolerance and open-mindedness and a modicum of intelligence are required, however...

Coldkiwi
29th January 2004, 12:36
Tolerance and open-mindedness and a modicum of intelligence are required, however...

YEAH! preach it brother!!

oh hang on- :wacko:

God
29th January 2004, 12:50
Yes, I approve.

Motoracer
29th January 2004, 12:54
Ok, who's the wise guy? lol

Slingshot
29th January 2004, 13:22
Yes, I approve.

God has spoken :2thumbsup But you could have at least boomed your message from the heavens rather than posting it here :Punk:

While I at it, I'd like to win Lotto this weekend and can you organise for it to be fine this weekend. Thanks in advance.

riffer
29th January 2004, 13:41
Okay - I had to bite ... and looked at God's public profile ... and then checked out his home page.

What do you know - there is no www.heaven.com (http://www.heaven.com/)

But there is a www.hell.com (http://www.hell.com/) and a www.satan.com (http://www.satan.com/)

[sigh] what's the world coming to?

Don't bother looking - they are porn.

God
29th January 2004, 14:14
Okay - I had to bite ... and looked at God's public profile ... and then checked out his home page.

What do you know - there is no www.heaven.com (http://www.heaven.com/)

But there is a www.hell.com (http://www.hell.com/) and a www.satan.com (http://www.satan.com/)

[sigh] what's the world coming to?

Don't bother looking - they are porn.

Yes... Well, I'm having trouble getting the funds together for my site... Donations accepted at a church near you :sneaky2:

DeanOh
29th January 2004, 14:46
Don't bother looking - they are porn.

I had to check and yes they are porn :eek5:

Big Dog
29th January 2004, 15:28
My original post wasn't aimed at determining whether or not speeding was a sin. I assumed that the reader would know that it was!:blank:


Zed
Lets try to follow the logic.

1 you assume that we already know that speeding = sin.
2 you post to that effect anyway.
3 you seem surprised to get responses of the discussion as opposed to agreement type.
4 despite assuming that all of the above was true your initial post was in the form of a question.
5 despite assuming that all of the above was true you expected a response.

I don't get it. why would you go to a discussion forum to ask a question with a predetermined (rhetorical) answer.

You either;
A Wanted everybody to agree... Perhaps it should have been poll.
B Wanted no one to bother answering because you beleive everyone thinks you are right thereby eliminating the need to reply.... consider you assumtion rebutted this is already page 10.
C Wanted an honest answer but were unprepared for the onslaught of honesty that followed.
D Are only a christian so as to appear more contentious.

Before you reply.
I am not a christian per se.
I am not an atheist (I believe there is a god)
I am a born again agnostic. There is a god but religion is wrong, and contrary to the will of god.
I believe that the bible is not a collection of historical fact (as it has been translated to many times before reaching its current format. Until the 1200's Jesus was a black man. The greco roman language it was translated from in 1200 is the first mention of mary's virginity, until that translation she was just unwed. But the white roman catholic pope could not allow the populice to continue to worship a black, jewish, bastard who lived in slavery. Source The Church a disection of truth. Note this book does not bag but rather supports faith and religion it meerly points out how over the last 1000 years the White Moral Majority have altered the bible to suit themselves.
This book was given to me to read by a methodist minister as I had more questions about contradictory scripture than he could answer. He beleived as I do that it is our duty to listen to the opinions of others but to make up our own mind, and that the bible is merely a collection of true stories mixed with analogies).

bluninja
29th January 2004, 15:30
Mr Ninja,

To us believers this original discussion is no debate- but a reality for every motorcyclist here! The temptations to "sin" and break the law on a motorcycle are very strong...there is no debate. You and others have turned it into a debate because you don't adhere to the same belief system, which is okay, but leave us Christians to discuss it will you!

With all due respect, you sound very offended in my posts..."par for the course". I have been gracious with what I've said so far which is more than I can say for your recent attacks on me.

I have deliberately refrained from using any scripture here in accordance to your wishes. Now please respect my wishes and don't comment any more on this particular discussion.


Zed
Hmmmmmm....how do you figure I'm not a believer or a christian? Because I have a passionately different point of view to you? That my interpretation of my relationship with god and how I behave is different to yours? I have to accept your assertion that you are a believer and christian, but your manner of behaving in this post leads me to question that....hence my post.

As for your veiled threat implied (but that's my interpretation of your words) that you would be less gracious in future posts; well that's for you to deal with not me.

Finally I will not be gagged by you on this post. I didn't ask you not to quote scripture...that's your interpretation, and whether you quote or not reflects on you not on me.

I have not taken offense at anything in this thread, regardless of how robust my responses appear to be. I think this forum is not the way to spread gods word (refer to my first response), and I think CKs suggestion of interested people meeting for a coffee is great....and may result in this post coming to a natural (or unatural) end.

Big Dog
29th January 2004, 15:38
The Great Commission:
Matthew 28:18-20 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

& the parallel passage in another gospel-

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Fact: the Holy Bible is filled with 100's of direct commandments from God to man. The 10 commandments were the basis or frame of the laws given to the nation of Israel in the Old Testament. Only some of these 10 were reiterated for application in the New Testament.
Jesus Christ himself (being God) gave new commandments:
John 13:34-35 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.



[color=darkgreen]Umm, who's being judgemental now? And just how many ministers have you known personally to be able to say that sir?


Whats your point, these were discussions with individuals between their god and thmselves. I am only aware of god laying down the law twice Thou shalt not eat apples! (surely an analogy for partaking of sin.)
And the ten commandments.

If I heard a voice in my head telling me I had to go buy a gun and hunt jews would you do likewise or would you expect corroboration of the order? Maybe by way of at the very least a small miracle?

Before you answer I would like to remind you the KKK is a Christian fraternity founded on the belief that god had promised the founder that god had given him the right to slaves because he was white. (I am not saying christianity is wrong just be wary the message you hear second hand.)

Big Dog
29th January 2004, 15:52
[color=darkgreen]Umm, who's being judgemental now? And just how many ministers have you known personally to be able to say that sir?

So far I have had education in Catholicism, Methodism and Presbttarian. I have also sought instruction on Bhudism, Judeaism, muslim, and mormonism. I have come to the conclusion that no one church is right because they all suffer the same fatal flaw they have been written and disciplined by humans.

Judgemental? No. Critical? Yes. Because the one thing my search for enlightenment has brought me it is the knowledge that constructive criticism is more powerful than the most passionate of platitudes. Anyone here will tell you I am routinely corrected, critiqued or otherwise abused over mistatements, if I wasn't there would be little point in comming back as there would be no further knowledge to be gained.

If you are honest in your belief in got you will welcome criticism if only because it means they are listening to your message.

If not perhaps you stand to lose something by not listening and therefore being unable to enjoy the succulent fruit that is knowledge.

God may have inspired you to start this thread for no other reason than giving you insight into your fellow man, or he may have meant for you to take the double blessing of insight into you self.

wkid_one
29th January 2004, 15:58
We have a new member, GOD, he will be able to resolve this....

Slingshot
29th January 2004, 16:10
I am a born again agnostic. There is a god but religion is wrong, and contrary to the will of god.

Sorry Bigdog, but I think your definition of agnostic is incorrect. I've always thought it meant a person that believes it is impossible to know if if God exists.

Lou Girardin
29th January 2004, 16:11
What does God ride?
Lou

Big Dog
29th January 2004, 16:22
Sorry Bigdog, but I think your definition of agnostic is incorrect. I've always thought it meant a person that believes it is impossible to know if if God exists.
My understanding is an agnostic is one who neither beleives nor disbeleives in god..... on the other hand I'm not a born again christian either :confused:

so I define myself as a compromising born again agnostic.... I created a new term to suit my self image. How else do you think the english language evolved.

Coldkiwi
29th January 2004, 16:58
however people align their morals with their way of living, I think the most important thing is that in the deepest part of their soul, they are truly truly content. If thats not the case then somethings not lining up. But if it is the case then they have no cause to change their beliefs and have excercised their right to free will to its full extent.

I guess i'm just really worried that not all people who don't believe in the God (the one I know that loves me) have thought it through because thats a huge tragedy. If people don't want to know God then thats their call and no one elses but as Mike has pointed out, its the biggest decision anyone can make and it should be the most informed decision as well.
I think that worry is what drives a lot of christians to share what they believe and also be seen as too provocative. its a fine line that needs wisdom and respect but like the slogan goes 'you'll never please all of the people all of the time'.

Whatever your belief is: BE TRULY TRULY HAPPY within yourself before staking your soul on it.

Big Dog
29th January 2004, 17:11
I guess i'm just really worried that not all people who don't believe

Would it be a fair statement then to say that the religion should not define the people so much as the people should define their faith? (ps not being pissy honest question.)

Motoracer
29th January 2004, 17:16
What does God ride?
Lou

Apparently a CT110

P.S. Holly shit! (please excuse the pun), I can't keep track of your disscutions. Man, these are some serious thoughts. :wacko:

Zed
29th January 2004, 18:16
What does God ride?
Lou
2 Samuel 22:7-17 In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried to my God: and he did hear my voice out of his temple, and my cry did enter into his ears. Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations of heaven moved and shook, because he was wroth. There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and darkness was under his feet. And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind. And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies. Through the brightness before him were coals of fire kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the most High uttered his voice. And he sent out arrows, and scattered them; lightning, and discomfited them. And the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were discovered, at the rebuking of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of his nostrils. He sent from above, he took me; he drew me out of many waters;

Yeah, my God rides too!!


Zed

bluninja
29th January 2004, 18:34
2 Samuel 22:7-17 In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried to my God: and he did hear my voice out of his temple, and my cry did enter into his ears. Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations of heaven moved and shook, because he was wroth. There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and darkness was under his feet. And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind. And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies. Through the brightness before him were coals of fire kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the most High uttered his voice. And he sent out arrows, and scattered them; lightning, and discomfited them. And the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were discovered, at the rebuking of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of his nostrils. He sent from above, he took me; he drew me out of many waters;

Yeah, my God rides too!!


ZedBut was the cherub a single, a twin, a triple, or an inline 4? I guess with the earth trembling it must have been a single or a twin.:innocent: and those wings...don't tell me it was a honda :buggerd:

Zed
29th January 2004, 18:37
But was the cherub a single, a twin, a triple, or an inline 4? I guess with the earth trembling it must have been a single or a twin.:innocent: and those wings...don't tell me it was a honda :buggerd:
Sure, Honda comes the closest...however, cherubs have 6 wings!

MikeL
29th January 2004, 20:44
God riding a Cherub? Who writes this stuff?

This silliness must stop.

And now for something completely different...

"Blessed are the Cheesemakers..."
(because they know the whey?)

Lou Girardin
29th January 2004, 20:48
Is this the longest thread yet?
Lou

SPman
29th January 2004, 21:11
A Cherub sounds like a mid 50's Japanese single 2 stroke....All that smoke and flames - probably the engine seizing before sending him over the top in a highside....that would explain the flying bit and the arrows and lightning - he'd be real pissed off!

But they have six wings.........A Goldwing! :shit:








....and now, a massage from the Swedish Prime Minister.......:banana:

Goddess of Goof
30th January 2004, 00:18
Of course god approves of motorcycling...

After all, isn't it written in the bible that Moses burned up the desert on/in his Triumph???
:brick:
;) I recall this reference as a joke, something along these lines ........

"Who was the first man to ever ride a motorcycle ?"
Was it Valentino Rossi? No. Was it Ivan Mauger? No. Was it good Mr Davidson himself? No.
It goes much further back than that.
It was MOSES ! Moses ? How can you say that?
It's written in the Bible.........
"When Moses came down from the Mountain,
The sound of his Triumph was heard all across the Land"

BTW, my GODDESS thoroughly approves of my motorcycle riding.
She actively encourages me to get out there and celebrate my freedom and autonomy in Her name........ and I sing songs of delight and praise to Her as I ride.......

:hug:

riffer
30th January 2004, 07:24
BTW, my GODDESS thoroughly approves of my motorcycle riding.
She actively encourages me to get out there and celebrate my freedom and autonomy in Her name........ and I sing songs of delight and praise to Her as I ride.......

:hug:
Blessed be, bestfun

Hitcher
30th January 2004, 07:47
;)
"When Moses came down from the Mountain,
The sound of his Triumph was heard all across the Land"


:hug:

And that would have to be an inline twin, rather than a triple.

I know that I will probably regret ever asking this, but where is it written that cherubs have six wings? This was news to an entomologist friend of mine...

MikeL
30th January 2004, 08:25
I would have to say that I am very sceptical about the claim that cherubim (note the correct plural) have 6 wings. Where is the proof? All the ones I have encountered have been normal twin-winged (dipterous) specimens. I would think that a hexapterous cherub would be aerodynamically unstable...

Hitcher
30th January 2004, 08:50
I would have to say that I am very sceptical about the claim that cherubim (note the correct plural) have 6 wings. Where is the proof? All the ones I have encountered have been normal twin-winged (dipterous) specimens. I would think that a hexapterous cherub would be aerodynamically unstable...
Cherubis fantasii perhaps?

Coldkiwi
30th January 2004, 11:51
Would it be a fair statement then to say that the religion should not define the people so much as the people should define their faith? (ps not being pissy honest question.)

(as an aside, I get nervous about using the R word. It has so many connotations and stereotypes that it inevitably starts things off towards god in a negative light).

I think its a big can of worms TBH. I believe people have free will to make their own decisions on the supernatural, so maybe in that sense 'people should define their faith'.
On the other hand, many people have defined their own faith in a fairly harmful way towards others to suit their own agenda 's (KKK, Aum Shinrikyo/suicide cults etc being extreme examples). So in that way, peoples beliefs need to be at least bounded by the bastions of religions to keep things from becoming anarchy. (big idea that i may have not communicated too well so don't jump on me to quickly over it ok?- I'm sure theres a Thesis in that!)

To say outright that people can define their own faith is a bit like people I have talked to saying 'everyone has their own truth. For you it can be God but for me I just live my life as best I can and I don't need to abide by any ten commandments'. Thats all well and good and wonderfully PC and accepting of diversity... but falls on its face when it encounters serial murderers/rapists who believe that their truth and rights (or call it faith for argument sakes) are to abuse and destroy.

did that help?

MikeL
30th January 2004, 13:08
One of the assumptions that we often make is that religion and morality are necessarily closely connected. It is possible (but difficult for those brought up in the Judeo-Christian tradition) to separate them so that our behaviour towards others is governed by secular or humanitarian concepts of fairness, brotherly love, avoiding causing suffering, etc., while spiritual growth entails exploring on a purely personal level the nature of the divinity and the meaning of existence. I admit that in the latter aspect there is an overlap with morality to some extent but what I would refute vehemently is that religious beliefs should be allowed to take precedence over commonsense, decency, and the rights of others to live their lives in their own way, providing always that it does not harm their fellow human beings. I would have to say that in my view the enormous good that the Christian church (as an institution) has brought about over 2 millennia has been balanced by enormous harm perpetrated sometimes deliberately, sometimes inadvertently. Christianity's greatest contribution - its radical re-interpretation of how we should live our lives - is also its greatest failing, when that simple message of brotherly love and joy is distorted and overlaid with primitive notions of reward and punishment and a concept of "God" (wrathful but loving, vengeful but merciful) that only makes sense to a Freudian.
Here endeth the sermon.

Zed
30th January 2004, 14:21
And that would have to be an inline twin, rather than a triple.

I know that I will probably regret ever asking this, but where is it written that cherubs have six wings? This was news to an entomologist friend of mine...
They have four wings actually, I made a mistake...it's the Seraphims that are the six-winged creatures. Found written in Ezekiel 10:20-22; Isaiah 6:2.

Zed

Hitcher
30th January 2004, 15:12
They have four wings actually, I made a mistake...it's the Seraphims that are the six-winged creatures. Found written in Ezekiel 10:20-22; Isaiah 6:2.

Zed

Thank you. I must have missed those bits! Useful questions for Trivial Pursuits, if nothing else...

Hitcher
30th January 2004, 15:36
They have four wings actually, I made a mistake...it's the Seraphims that are the six-winged creatures. Found written in Ezekiel 10:20-22; Isaiah 6:2.

Zed

Fascinating... Cherubim have four faces as well, whereas seraphim have only two, but presumably fly blind, seeing as they're obscured by two wings... One wonders whether this is early evidence of genetic modification???

Zed
30th January 2004, 15:57
Fascinating... Cherubim have four faces as well, whereas seraphim have only two, but presumably fly blind, seeing as they're obscured by two wings... One wonders whether this is early evidence of genetic modification???
Lol, they don't fly blind at all! The Lord doesn't make any mistakes:

Revelation 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
Zed

KATWYN
30th January 2004, 17:44
Lol, they don't fly blind at all! The Lord doesn't make any mistakes:

Revelation 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
Zed

Its all metaphorically speaking...my opinion :) have you seen that this GOD site has had about 1900 veiws!! compared to the others...p.s also the cherubs ,seraphs and arch angel all have different responsibilities and ranks

SPman
30th January 2004, 18:57
You know the part I like best about Christianity?

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

Shit, their are some sick puppies out there!

Kwaka-Kid
30th January 2004, 21:49
far out, this thread has sparked heaps... erm, thats all... but i think that with my riding i ought be packing my fireproof bags full of VFR bits..next up a stainless steel fairing...

ching_ching
1st February 2004, 12:14
Does God approve of my motorcycle riding?

I'd have to say 'no'.

ching_ching

Zed
1st February 2004, 12:43
Does God approve of my motorcycle riding?

I'd have to say 'no'.

ching_ching
Now that's an honest admission! :2thumbsup


Zed

Big Dog
1st February 2004, 13:03
Now that's an honest admission! :2thumbsup


Zed
Interesting...... when we disagree with you we are blasphemous and deseverving of more scripture. those who agree get your praise......

Zed
1st February 2004, 13:39
Now that's an honest admission! :2thumbsup


Zed

...and one of the few actual answers to my original thread. :shit:


Zed

bluninja
1st February 2004, 13:42
Interesting...... when we disagree with you we are blasphemous and deseverving of more scripture. those who agree get your praise......
If you disagree strongly enough with Zed then you may get your KB reputation damaged with comments "Looking for a fight!" :bye: Found this when I went to change some of my options in user CP.

wkid_one
1st February 2004, 13:49
If you disagree strongly enough with Zed then you may get your KB reputation damaged with comments "Looking for a fight!" :bye: Found this when I went to change some of my options in user CP. He He He......I thought violence was also something shunned by the bible?

I am staying out of the whole religious debate.......as hard as it is.........it just isn't worth the effort......

I might go read the Karan instead.

PS - SP you will note that my gyrating minx of an avatar is back

bluninja
1st February 2004, 13:59
He He He......I thought violence was also something shunned by the bible?

I am staying out of the whole religious debate.......as hard as it is.........it just isn't worth the effort......

I might go read the Karan instead.

PS - SP you will note that my gyrating minx of an avatar is back
Be careful of the Koran versus Motorcycling too....an English translation from The Elevated Places

[7.55] Call on your Lord humbly and secretly; surely He does not love those who exceed the limits.

Again...don't exceed the limits:sunny:

wkid_one
1st February 2004, 14:25
Hmmmm - that is no good then either
I am running out of religious texts here then...

I found a website tho for Zed et al

http://roadridersforjesus.org/

And it fact, it appears there is no NZ chapter......for how long

and another

http://www.exousia.demon.co.uk/godssquad/squadweb/faq.htm

So, I guess in essence - god does approve of riding if he condones these groups......phew my conscience is now clear - as truth be told, this was the true reason if forsook riding.

Hitcher
1st February 2004, 14:38
you will note that my gyrating minx of an avatar is back

I hope she feels well rested after her wee holiday...

georgedubyabush
2nd February 2004, 09:18
Hmmmm - that is no good then either
I am running out of religious texts here then...

I found a website tho for Zed et al

http://roadridersforjesus.org/

And it fact, it appears there is no NZ chapter......for how long

and another

http://www.exousia.demon.co.uk/godssquad/squadweb/faq.htm

So, I guess in essence - god does approve of riding if he condones these groups......phew my conscience is now clear - as truth be told, this was the true reason if forsook riding.

If you're after a religion Wkid, there is one in Vanuatu which to ME is as good as any...

The Cult of John Frum on the island of Tanna.

They believe that John Frum will return to their Island from the sky and from the Sea bearing endless Cargo and riches. They have constructed airstrips and wharves for this purpose. It originated from WW2 when the yanks landed and had a base there. "John from America". It is still popular today and when pressed about it, they will reply... "We have only been waiting 50 years for our God to return, you have been waiting 2000 years, who is more foolish?"

I dont think John Frum would disapprove of speeding, there are no speed limits out of the towns. :Pokey:

Lou Girardin
2nd February 2004, 20:08
The good old cargo cult, mainstay of new right fanatics since 1984.
Lou

jrandom
3rd February 2004, 11:35
For all you believers in God, is He happy with your motorcycling?

Oh, dude, now I *know*. Sheesh. I go away for a week and... if this was USENET, I probably wouldn't plonk you, because your bait is rather better than the usual stinky variety, but aren't you feeling a bit guilty about shooting fish in a barrel here? Most of the inhabitants of this forum don't appear to be seasoned flame warriors and wouldn't recognise a troll if it turned up and bit them on the arse.

I think most of us would appreciate a return to honest discussion. Please FOAD.