Diesel vs petrol vehicles

[Gremlin]

Not sure if anyone is interested, but I've always been a little curious, and every time the prices for RUC, 91 and Diesel change the old debate crops up about which one is better. Petrol has increased 3c this month, and RUC has risen (bit of debate that the RUC has risen more steeply) so the arguments come out again.

Anyway, I created an excel sheet (one table assuming you rego 6 monthly, one for 12 months) based on a year. 0-50k comparison of cars and van/truck/utility but all private (extra fees and shite with transport etc) and up to 6 tonnes.

You can fix the gas price and fuel consumption (only the top 2, $ and L/100km) and RUC rate and this will fill in the table for you. I've always hankered for an F250 style ute, 8 foot tray for motorcycles gate up, and still cab space, but this table shows if you're going that big, stay away from petrol because petrol tax plus RUC (they're over 3.5t so classified as heavy) makes it more expensive after minimal distance. However, fuel consumption and gas v diesel price makes a big difference in which option costs more.

Obviously I'm not factoring in servicing and other running costs...

[Akzle]

ever get that feeling you have too much free time?
Get a fuken elf or dyna or someshit.

[Grumph]

If you're going to do the Nationals it's actually quite an important decision.

But for me, ease of disconnection of the speedo is pretty important too - cable drive or electric.

[Voltaire]

They should ditch rego and just put the whole lot on fuel, If your using your vehicle you pay, if your not you don't.
Personally I like my 2.5 litre Turbo VW van, its done nearly 300 000 k and I'll drive it till it stops, being European its expensive to repair but its nicer than the Jap ones of the same era that are only really town vehicles.

[SMOKEU]

being European its expensive to repair

Then you're getting ripped off. There's no reason why European vehicles should cost more to run/repair than anything else, as long as you're comparing similar vehicles (ie, not a Ferrari vs a Corolla).

[husaberg]

We did some comparisons when I brought my last ute.
I ended up with a V6 petrol Hilux as it was 10 thousand dollars cheaper than a less powerful diesel.
The running costs pretty similar when you factor in RUC's.
Best of all I just sold it Cause the wife wanted a sedan and only lost 4000 dollars in 6 years.

[SMOKEU]

We did some comparisons when I brought my last ute.
I ended up with a V6 petrol Hilux as it was 10 thousand dollars cheaper than a less powerful diesel.
The running costs pretty similar when you factor in RUC's.
Best of all I just sold it Cause the wife wanted a sedan and only lost 4000 dollars in 6 years.

That doesn't surprise me because the Japanese don't make any good diesels.

[Voltaire]

Then you're getting ripped off. There's no reason why European vehicles should cost more to run/repair than anything else, as long as you're comparing similar vehicles (ie, not a Ferrari vs a Corolla).

VW T4 Vs VW T2....
I'll rephrase that " If you can't fix them yourself European vehicles are expensive to repair.
I only take moderns to garages as I have no interest in multi valve injected engines.

[jim.cox]

We did some comparisons when I brought my last ute.
I ended up with a V6 petrol Hilux as it was 10 thousand dollars cheaper than a less powerful diesel.
The running costs pretty similar when you factor in RUC's.

I've done exactly the same comparison, and come to the same conclusion - you have to do a LOT of km's to make up the $10k price differential with the lower fuel cost.

It may hurt every time I fill my truck - but it does mean I get to drive a vehicle I actually like.

[Motu]

With the diesel Pajero spending most of it's life sitting on the front lawn, it had to go, rego on a diesel is just too much if you don't use it.

[Flip]

I have just done the dollars on my Vintage V8 Landrover on LPG.

It costs half the price of a diesel.

[SMOKEU]

VW T4 Vs VW T2....
I'll rephrase that " If you can't fix them yourself European vehicles are expensive to repair.
I only take moderns to garages as I have no interest in multi valve injected engines.

Any vehicle will be expensive to repair if you take it a dealership. If you find a good, independent mechanic who isn't going to rip you off with the "Euro tax" bullshit excuse to con fools out of their money, it shouldn't cost any more to own a reasonably common (in NZ) European vehicle compared to a similar Japanese vehicle.

[ellipsis]

That doesn't surprise me because the Japanese don't make any good diesels.




...?....


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[Edbear]

Before buying the Kizashi I did the numbers on vehicles up to mid-size and the cost per k was the same for petrol and diesel. It's ridiculous that smaller diesels that return half the fuel consumption and also less pollution, are ruled out by the RUC's.

I wonder what the rules would be if Mitsubishi's Outlander PHEV, had a small turbo diesel rather than the 2lt petrol engine. I calculated that almost 100% of my running over the last three months would have been solely on battery power.

It would appear that the Government does not want more economical vehicles on the roads. It's a real issue though, that the declining tax take from vehicles due to better fuel economy is up against the rising cost of accommodating a fast growing vehicle population. So what's the answer since NZ's drivers are not going to stop buying cars?

[Flip]

That doesn't surprise me because the Japanese don't make any good diesels.

Just like their motorcycles.

[gjm]

Break even comes pretty quickly... 7L/100km diesel vs 8L/100km petrol and by 11000 you're on parity. After that, running the diesel gets cheaper.

It doesn't feel like that. Fill up your diesel vehicle with 60L tank, and it'll cost $80-90. Factor in $00s for RUC, extra rego and it seems expensive.
Compare that with filling a petrol-engined car with a 60L tank and it's cost over $120, and it doesn't seem quite so bad.

However - this is perception. The spreadsheet speaks the truth.

[vifferman]

I didn't bother reading your spreadsheet / comparison, but recently I did a similar thing with my car (2010 VW Passat R-Line, TDI). I wanted an R36, but for two reasons didn't get one: none were for sale at the time, and (AFAIK) they stopped making them in 2008. The cars are very similar, with the R36 having a couple of extra features to justify the premium price, and a 3.6litre V6, vs. the 1968cc TDI on the R-Line. Both produce 350mutant-eaters of torques (with the R-Line having it from 1500rpm to just over 4k), but the R-Line has only 125kw vs. the R36's 221kw. Weight's similar, with the R36's AWD adding a little to the rear end.
The big difference is fuel economy, with the R-Line easily managing 900km / tank without effort, or 1300km if I throw in some highway cruising.
So, I worked it out, that with the 5c/km RUCs, the TDi's frugality is entirely negated, and the running cost's about the same. Iffen I'd known that before hand, and iffen the R36 wasn't discontinued, I would've been better off with one, solely for the hoon factor and auditory bonus.

The Gubmint really are stupidcoontz, y'know. They try to make a feeble attempt at appearing to be environmentally conscious on the one hand, yet by pinging owners of frugal modern TDI vehicles by making them pay the same RUCs as trucks and fume-belching 4WD behemoths, they're costing the country dearly in terms of fuel imports. There self-confessed aim in putting RUCs up was to make the tax take the same as less-efficient petrol vehicles pay at the pump.

We drove a Peugeot 308 1.6 TDI in Yurp, and I thought, "This thing's going to be a dog!", but it wasn't! It would be the ideal car for NooZilund, with heaps of torque for our uppy-downy terrain, used hardly any fuel, and yet it makes no sense here as things are, because even though you'd save a heap on fuel, be able to tour without worrying where the next gas station was, and be doing the environment a favour, it would be not much cheaper to run due to Gubmint penalties.

[jasonu]

Break even comes pretty quickly... 7L/100km diesel vs 8L/100km petrol and by 11000 you're on parity. After that, running the diesel gets cheaper.

It doesn't feel like that. Fill up your diesel vehicle with 60L tank, and it'll cost $80-90. Factor in $00s for RUC, extra rego and it seems expensive.
Compare that with filling a petrol-engined car with a 60L tank and it's cost over $120, and it doesn't seem quite so bad.

However - this is perception. The spreadsheet speaks the truth.

What about periodic maintenance? Diesels cost 3 times as much to service (oil change, filters etc) than similar petrol vehicles and if you don't properly maintain your diesel it will bite you in the arse dollars wise.

[gjm]

What about periodic maintenance? Diesels cost 3 times as much to service (oil change, filters etc) than similar petrol vehicles and if you don't properly maintain your diesel it will bite you in the arse dollars wise.

It's true that a diesel should have it's oil changed more often, even if BMW reckon our 320d should go 20000km between changes. Long life spec oil goes a ways to helping, but I still won't run anything like that long. I change the oil every 5-6000 miles (8-9000km; it's UK import with everything in miles).

But I'd change the oil in a petrol car at that interval, too, so no saving there.

Glow plugs? Maybe... Except it very rarely gets cold enough where we live to make that an issue. OK, so there are other diesel-specific things, but I don't think they really are that much more expensive to look after.

Petrol car - spark plugs? Now there's a ridiculously expensive item in NZ! Repco or SCA want $30 per plug for something to fit an older VW Polo. (We have one of those, too, at the moment.) That is - literally - 10 times as much as they cost in the UK. OK, economies of scale apply, and the car is much more common in Europe, but it is cheaper to plan ahead, order them in Britain and have them posted here. Same goes for oil filters, air filters... Grrr... :mad: Air filter - equivalent of $7 in the UK. Again, 10 times as much here. Oil filters are the same. (I'm comparing high street vendors here, not mail order specialists.)

Besides, most petrol cars (that provide anything approaching an interesting drive) won't use 8L per 100km. They'll use 10, or more. My situation is a little different to many and I'm driving 50000km or so per year, so diesel saves me nearly $3000 (in fuel, RUC, and rego) per year.

At higher mileages, diesels make sense. Around town perhaps, and for less travelling, petrol may well be a better bet. It's easier to justify with utes and the like.

Disconnecting speedo cables is another story. Not sure I even can on the BMW!

[SMOKEU]

...?....


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Just like their motorcycles.

The Japanese make great petrol engines, but not diesels. There's a reason why more and more Japanese vehicles use European diesels.

[husaberg]

Break even comes pretty quickly... 7L/100km diesel vs 8L/100km petrol and by 11000 you're on parity. After that, running the diesel gets cheaper.

It doesn't feel like that. Fill up your diesel vehicle with 60L tank, and it'll cost $80-90. Factor in $00s for RUC, extra rego and it seems expensive.
Compare that with filling a petrol-engined car with a 60L tank and it's cost over $120, and it doesn't seem quite so bad.

However - this is perception. The spreadsheet speaks the truth.

Thing is mine was $10000 cheaper the interest on that buys a fair bit of petrol.
Being a 4 liter petrol it should have lasted 4 ever.......

[Gremlin]

ever get that feeling you have too much free time?
Get a fuken elf or dyna or someshit.
No and no... Actually don't have much free time, but flexing some excel always has it's rewards.


But for me, ease of disconnection of the speedo is pretty important too - cable drive or electric.
Yeup, except as a buyer, this is exactly what worries me...


They should ditch rego and just put the whole lot on fuel, If your using your vehicle you pay, if your not you don't.
Completely agree, and people have mentioned this multiple times for multiple reasons, including owning multiple vehicles.


I didn't bother reading your spreadsheet / comparison,
Throw in your own gas/diesel price and consumption figure and it will do the maths on the options available... easy as that really.

I still do most of my mileage on bikes, I think I did about 6k in the ute last year... actually pretty good considering I only drive it on some weekends.

[caspernz]

Meh, the comparison between diesel vs petrol is largely academic. If you're doing enough clicks, the diesel will win. But how many privately owned vehicles run those big clicks? Getting into company car territory pretty quick then, or at least into the space of someone with a vehicle allowance.

The amusing thing for me personally is that since I got a little Hyundai Getz as a work runabout, the bike now uses more fuel than my work hack :laugh: and let's not even talk about the tyre cost disparity :no:. Me thinks I don't want to put those sorts of entries into an Excel spreadsheet :nono:

[FJRider]

... Me thinks I don't want to put those sorts of entries into an Excel spreadsheet :nono:

Many STILL believe running costs ARE fuel costs ...

[Gremlin]

My boss had a Ford Fiesta diesel top of the line thing, that could manage 3-4L/100km when trotting down the motorway.

Then he got bored with the lack of power from it, plus the RUC on such a tiny car, so he got a high performance Mazda MPS hatch thing. Then it cost lots to run and now has that new shape Prius V... he's a curious one :laugh:

[caspernz]

Many STILL believe running costs ARE fuel costs ...

Haha, yeah and they're either called Richard Cranium or blonde is their natural hair colour :facepalm:

[FJRider]

Haha, yeah and they're either called Richard Cranium or blonde is their natural hair colour :facepalm:

There are many motorcyclists commuting on their bike (for economy reasons) ... when a small car would more effective/practical/economical ...

[ellipsis]

The Japanese make great petrol engines, but not diesels. There's a reason why more and more Japanese vehicles use European diesels.


...are you for fucking real?...what would make you want to state such a fucking ridiculous thing...experience or did someone tell you?...

[Big Dog]

There are many motorcyclists commuting on their bike (for economy reasons) ... when a small car would more effective/practical/economical ...

Don't I know it. If I could afford a shoe box as a third registered vehicle any cost benefit would be gone. Even on the DR.
I commute by motorcycle because it is the best alternative I could live with. Without brushing my teeth with a Winchester.

I don't fancy an extra hour each way. I don't fancy spending that hour in traffic that feels like your in a busy car park circling looking for a park with 10,000 others.
Sometimes I do wish I had a cup holder, nice stereo, air con etc.

But then I get to the open road sections.
Sometimes I wish I lived further from Auckland, but even when my gloves are collecting mud, water is running into my boot and the crosswind is having it on, I climb out of the Bombays and smell the air and all is right with the world.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[Akzle]

my gloves are collecting mud, water is running into my boot and the crosswind is having it on, I climb out of the Bombays
mud? You know theres a road over there now eh...

[HenryDorsetCase]

The only reason anyone should get a diesel is so that they can pretend to be a good ole boy and roll some coal.

rollin' coal, y'all. Its a thing. PS you need a pickup. And to be Murican.

eQzBY36mamw

[buggerit]

My next ute will run on 95:innocent: and Michellin tyres:yes:

[Big Dog]

mud? You know theres a road over there now eh...

You obviously haven't ridden the southern motorway in rough weather then?

By mud I was referring to but lacking the words for the filthy brown and black shit like substances that accumulate all over the bike and my gear on the southern. This appears first as a fine powder but add water and it turns into something resembling the runs.
Based on the odours the black sludge is smog. The brown sludge is farm dust.

I could live with the farm dust. It is the proliferation of pollution that bothers me.

But yes on particularly foul nights there is also a spray of mud from other vehicles.

Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[gjm]

Many STILL believe running costs ARE fuel costs ...


Haha, yeah and they're either called Richard Cranium or blonde is their natural hair colour :facepalm:

Fuel is one of very few constants that can readily be compared between different vehicles, which may be why it is so widely described as the running cost. Price of parts, depreciation, hourly rate for a workshop, tyre wear, and many other things obviously can and do vary considerably, but really ought to also be considered.

[SPman]

Hmmmm - on your figures, our i30 wagon 1.6 Turbo diesel averaging 5.8l/100km over 60,000km
NZ - Diesel $86/1000km + $58 RUC = $144/1000km. (@$1.48/l) - We do about 800km/week, so fuel @ about NZ$116/week
W.A. - Diesel @ $1.61/litre (ave) = AU $94.70/1000km! - so fuel @ about AU$75/week. (NZ $81)

Something seriously wrong with NZ fuel pricing!
The RUC should be included in the diesel price, up to 3.5tn - lots of diesel cars/vans/utes on the road. - RUC additional on top of that. It works like that over here - vehicles over 4.5tns pay extra RUC, regardless of petrol or diesel powered.

Our previous 1600 Getz, over 200,000km averaged 7.2l/100km - @ NZ$2.19/l = NZ$158/1000km - so, on NZ rates the diesel is still cheaper on fuel. 91 in W.A. is $1.45/l ave, so AU$105/1000km

[Tazz]

I've always had diesels but this will be my last one (2.5L Merc). Just over all the costs. Diesel ute rego is criminal now too.

[R650R]

I'd like a diesel but it would have to be one of the good ones.
The Japs do make good ones ie Izuzu, Fuso/Mitsi etc, its only some of the earlier stuff in 80's and 90's that were poor crossovers from petrol donor engine designs.
Drove a late model 2L BMW diesel when in UK and whoa did that baby take off like a rocket, and quiet.
The problem is most peoples experiences are probably from work hacks that have been thrashed to death, like the alarm co wagon in my early days with 600kg of gear in the boot!!!
Us mere mortals must buy petrol as otherwise the oil companies have a product going to waste, their is already ample industry demand for diesel supplies. So the Elite cant have us peasants driving around in diesels and be left with tankers of unsold petrol...

I want a diesel to be able to do this, very cool http://www.businessinsider.com.au/conservatives-purposely-making-cars-spew-black-smoke-2014-7 that out to wipe the smug smile off any prius owner :)

[JimO]

i have a near new Hilux Deisel thats always loaded and tow a heavy trailor, the V6 petrol Hilux would cost more to run using it like that, i know a guy that has one that he runs empty all the time and it LOVES petrol, stick a couple of ton on the back and half a ton in it and it would be eyewateringly thirsty

[Akzle]

By mud I was referring to but lacking the words for the filthy brown and black shit like substances that accumulate all over the bike and my gear on the southern. This appears first as a fine powder but add water and it turns into something resembling the runs.
Based on the odours the black sludge is smog. The brown sludge is farm dust.


youre part of the problem dude.

[husaberg]

i have a near new Hilux Deisel thats always loaded and tow a heavy trailor, the V6 petrol Hilux would cost more to run using it like that, i know a guy that has one that he runs empty all the time and it LOVES petrol, stick a couple of ton on the back and half a ton in it and it would be eyewateringly thirsty

Mrs had a 2.4 Rav4 before see stole my Hilux v6 they ran about the same overall 9.6 liters /100km short trips on school run.........
I think you would find the load would make little difference the V6 is pretty under stressed and has a bout 100 more HP than the 3 liter Turbo diesel.

[SMOKEU]

...are you for fucking real?...what would make you want to state such a fucking ridiculous thing...experience or did someone tell you?...

Then why do Toyota use BMW diesels, and Suzuki and Mitsubishi with Renault diesels, if the Japanese can make such good diesels on their own? Japan simply has far too small a domestic diesel passenger car market to invest the same amount of money in diesel R&D like the Europeans have. In comparison to a good, modern European diesel, the Japanese diesels are thirsty and high maintenance.

[Big Dog]

youre part of the problem dude.

Aye and if I ever find a job that is as enjoyable as my current one (without paying less in wages) but outside of the major centers I won't be.

Ideal job would include a travel requirement of telecommute. There is very little I do at work I could not do just as easily if not more so from home. Bosses in this country like to see bums in the seats they pay for.

Almost everything I do is SQL, IIS, Server OS or Storage, almost all remotely. I can't remember the last time I touched a physical server.

If it were up to me I would be there in person 1 day a week and work remotely 4.

Would save the company money.
Would save me money. Even factoring in building an office out the back so I don't get distracted.
More importantly my productivity would be higher and I would have an extra 2 hours a day to spend with the family.
This working in buildings centralised into a cesspit of.....
Gah, I could go on for hours but I wont... time to go spend time with the kids... :P

[FJRider]

Then why do Toyota use BMW diesels

http://www.carscoops.com/2014/02/toyota-to-use-whole-family-of-bmw.html

"Sharing the knowledge" ... why invent when you can copy. I doubt if the "sharing' will be for free though ... :laugh:


and Suzuki and Mitsubishi with Renault diesels

Actually ... Nissan do. And Mercedes ...

Since 1999, Nissan has been part of the Renault–Nissan Alliance, a partnership between Nissan and French automaker Renault. As of 2013, Renault holds a 43.4% voting stake in Nissan, while Nissan holds a 15% non-voting stake in Renault.

[Akzle]

If it were up to me I would be there in person 1 day a week and work remotely 4.

Would save the company money.
Would save me money. Even factoring in building an office out the back so I don't get distracted.
More importantly my productivity would be higher and I would have an extra 2 hours a day to spend with the family.
This working in buildings centralised into a cesspit of.....
Gah, I could go on for hours but I wont... time to go spend time with the kids... :P

you should do that,

[caspernz]

Bosses in this country like to see bums in the seats they pay for.

Yep, the good old colonial management style that's still in vogue in many companies actually works against them in the long run :shit: