Opportunity Knocks

[rastuscat]

Just a starter for ten.

I've just posted a ticket out to a bloke to blitzed up the cycle lane past me (I wasn't working at the time) a few days ago.

All processes followed, ticket posted.

I've offered him the option to do one of the ACC subsidised courses.

http://www.rideforever.co.nz/training/

If he does it within 6 weeks, I'll cancel the ticket.

Ticket costs $150 (ridiculous, but I don't set the fines), the training costs $50.

What are the odds that he'll go and do the training? Seems like a good deal to me, but less than half the folk I've offered it to actually take it up.

Are we really so can't be arsed?

[unstuck]

Are we really so can't be arsed?

Yup. Mostly.

[Urano]

i'd pay the fine price to have the choice (mostly) and to do the training.
anyone who doesn't catch it immediately is a moron...

[BMWST?]

Just a starter for ten.

I've just posted a ticket out to a bloke to blitzed up the cycle lane past me (I wasn't working at the time) a few days ago.

All processes followed, ticket posted.

I've offered him the option to do one of the ACC subsidised courses.

http://www.rideforever.co.nz/training/

If he does it within 6 weeks, I'll cancel the ticket.

Ticket costs $150 (ridiculous, but I don't set the fines), the training costs $50.

What are the odds that he'll go and do the training? Seems like a good deal to me, but less than half the folk I've offered it to actually take it up.

Are we really so can't be arsed?
Its not that.i think there are basically two kinds of motorcyclists
1)Those who take training as an option because they think they will receive some benefit from it.
2)Those who dont because they think they wont benefit from it.
I think the first group are also the ones with the correct attitude anyway so are likely to practise safe riding, atgatt etc,the other group,not so much

[nzspokes]

Just a starter for ten.

I've just posted a ticket out to a bloke to blitzed up the cycle lane past me (I wasn't working at the time) a few days ago.

All processes followed, ticket posted.

I've offered him the option to do one of the ACC subsidised courses.

http://www.rideforever.co.nz/training/

If he does it within 6 weeks, I'll cancel the ticket.

Ticket costs $150 (ridiculous, but I don't set the fines), the training costs $50.

What are the odds that he'll go and do the training? Seems like a good deal to me, but less than half the folk I've offered it to actually take it up.

Are we really so can't be arsed?

I like the idea but what if the person does not have time? Are these long courses? For some its worth $100 not to lose a days work or get in trouble at work.

[Ulsterkiwi]

Its not that.i think there are basically two kinds of motorcyclists
1)Those who take training as an option because they think they will receive some benefit from it.
2)Those who dont because they think they wont benefit from it.
I think the first group are also the ones with the correct attitude anyway so are likely to practise safe riding, atgatt etc,the other group,not so much

hard to disagree with this

I did an ACC course last weekend. Me and one other only ones on the course. Great! we got lots of attention and quality time with a good instructor.

Besides what I learned about me and my riding I made two observations....

1. The other guy was a returning rider (I am a newbie). He was doing lots of things 'wrong'. BUT he came on the course because he knew there was stuff to learn and he came with an open mind. So the mindset is more important than anything else.

2. The instructor commented it was really hard to fill a course in that region. It seems bizarre to spend thousands on a bike and gear but not spring $20 to help you stay alive and have more fun while you do that! I know a few guys who play golf, pretty good at it too. They routinely take professional lessons costing a lot more than $20. Tiger Woods has a coach they say, he must know something.....

[BMWST?]

hard to disagree with this

I did an ACC course last weekend. Me and one other only ones on the course. Great! we got lots of attention and quality time with a good instructor.

Besides what I learned about me and my riding I made two observations....

1. The other guy was a returning rider (I am a newbie). He was doing lots of things 'wrong'. BUT he came on the course because he knew there was stuff to learn and he came with an open mind. So the mindset is more important than anything else.

2. The instructor commented it was really hard to fill a course in that region. It seems bizarre to spend thousands on a bike and gear but not spring $20 to help you stay alive and have more fun while you do that! I know a few guys who play golf, pretty good at it too. They routinely take professional lessons costing a lot more than $20. Tiger Woods has a coach they say, he must know something.....
Well actually,a training course is ussually about 100 so cost could be a factor too

[Ulsterkiwi]

Well actually,a training course is ussually about 100 so cost could be a factor too

Ratuscat is talking about ACC courses, $20 for most and $50 for some. Ratuscat hasnt said if he specified which one but it seems like a positive way to police something to me. At least the guy has an option.

[BMWST?]

Ratuscat is talking about ACC courses, $20 for most and $50 for some. Ratuscat hasnt said if he specified which one but it seems like a positive way to police something to me. At least the guy has an option.
Yes,but I talking more generally than this specific case.the subsidised courses are a relatively new phenomena

[buggerit]

These courses are a good idea, I have and will continue to do them.How do you put a $ value on demerit points?:ride:that alone makes
it worthwhile:yes:

[thepom]

I would have loved to be given the choice....stupid if he does,nt take the offer....I ll be positive and say he ll take the course...

[BMWGSER]

Watch out for that silver RT unmarked patrol bike in Canterbury , Ya can't out run a postage stamp.

[rastuscat]

Watch out for that silver RT unmarked patrol bike in Canterbury , Ya can't out run a postage stamp.

Snicker.:2thumbsup

[Big Dog]

I like the idea. Some will refuse to learn. They can pay the fine. Others will benefit from the opportunity.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[willytheekid]

Watch out for that silver RT unmarked patrol bike in Canterbury....


...its usually blocking the entrance to KB donuts, or grabbing the last of the cheesey saussie rolls out at little river :weep:

[R650R]

What are the odds that he'll go and do the training? Seems like a good deal to me, but less than half the folk I've offered it to actually take it up.

Are we really so can't be arsed?

Couple of things.
Depends on what you rate your personal time worth in an hourly rate. Eg there are jobs I can do myself to bike, car, house etc but sometimes I'll pay a pro to do the job if my cack handed attempts takes too long and it results in a half or full day I could have gainfully spent doing something else. I'd kind be inlined not to do the course as overall its only a saving of a hundred bucks and its at least half a day taken, so divided into four hours that's 25$ per hour of 'me' time.
Really the fine needs to be about 4x the course cost to make it an attractive option.
Similar lines, there are so many things on these days, its hard enough to get friends and family along to things they'd even like to do, let alone forced to do.
So write bigger tickets ;p

[haydes55]

Do scooters get ticketed for doing the same?

Would a bike be able to use a cycle lane if done so slowly and with respect?

(I know the rule about using it for a max of 50m if you are about to make a left turn.)

[BMWST?]

Couple of things.
Depends on what you rate your personal time worth in an hourly rate. Eg there are jobs I can do myself to bike, car, house etc but sometimes I'll pay a pro to do the job if my cack handed attempts takes too long and it results in a half or full day I could have gainfully spent doing something else. I'd kind be inlined not to do the course as overall its only a saving of a hundred bucks and its at least half a day taken, so divided into four hours that's 25$ per hour of 'me' time.
Really the fine needs to be about 4x the course cost to make it an attractive option.
Similar lines, there are so many things on these days, its hard enough to get friends and family along to things they'd even like to do, let alone forced to do.
So write bigger tickets ;p
Would you do a course with no incentive at all,other than you might ( re) learn something?

[Gremlin]

2. The instructor commented it was really hard to fill a course in that region. It seems bizarre to spend thousands on a bike and gear but not spring $20 to help you stay alive and have more fun while you do that! I know a few guys who play golf, pretty good at it too. They routinely take professional lessons costing a lot more than $20. Tiger Woods has a coach they say, he must know something.....
Also factor in how much people spend on things like an aftermarket exhaust. Training would be one of the single biggest improvements you could make, and it's going to carry with you from bike to bike.

However, rastus from memory was doing this a while ago, and I think almost no-one took up the offer? As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink...

Plus, completely agree with comments re right attitude. But then the other conundrum is that those that don't do the courses are often the ones that need them the most. ... mmm

[pritch]

If he does it within 6 weeks, I'll cancel the ticket.

Ticket costs $150 (ridiculous, but I don't set the fines), the training costs $50.



He is probably starting a thread on KB as we speak. He will be bitching about this arsehole cop who is making him go on a course instead of catching criminals.
God forbid that he might actually learn something.

[rastuscat]

He is probably starting a thread on KB as we speak. He will be bitching about this arsehole cop who is making him go on a course instead of catching criminals.
God forbid that he might actually learn something.

I'll search for it. Looking forward to hearing the other side of the story.

[Akzle]

As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink...

fck, all these years i've had it wrong, so very wrong.... i thought it was: "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't have sex with it"...

[Grashopper]

Its not that.i think there are basically two kinds of motorcyclists
1)Those who take training as an option because they think they will receive some benefit from it.
2)Those who dont because they think they wont benefit from it.
I think the first group are also the ones with the correct attitude anyway so are likely to practise safe riding, atgatt etc,the other group,not so much

What he said. However, the ratio between these groups is unfortunately not 50:50, and those of group 2 will likely need a bit more 'convincing' (i.e., higher ticket costs) or may only choose the training if money is tight. But if that gets just a few people training that they otherwise never would have done, then it was worth offering this choice.

[Robbo]

fck, all these years i've had it wrong, so very wrong.... i thought it was: "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't have sex with it"...

HaHaHa. Geeze Akzle, have you been doing it all wrong all these years.
Best you go and apologise to your horse.:killingme

[rastuscat]

fck, all these years i've had it wrong, so very wrong.... i thought it was: "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't have sex with it"...

Where's THAT written?

[rastuscat]

Just an observation.

Voluntary training schemes attract those who have a mentality for safety.

As a rule, it's the risk takers who think they are shit hot that could benefit the most from training, but they wont get it because they think they are shit hot.

That's why I decided to use the tickets to give them an incentive to influence their decision to undergo training.

Just sayin.

Pissing down, hailing and cold in Chur Chur at times today. I took the troll bike out, and the only other bike rider I stopped was riding with no gloves. We always stop those, and it's almost always worth it. He was on a 250 LAMS bike with a car licence only. Sometimes the job really is too easy.

If only people made this harder. Yawn.

[Akzle]

i suppose i should probably get a license for something one day.....


nah!

[Scuba_Steve]

i suppose i should probably get a license for something one day.....


nah!

Bro I can hook u up with any licence you want for the price of a BK Whooper... course if ya got a printer & 5mins you can hook yourself up too

[buggerit]

Also factor in how much people spend on things like an aftermarket exhaust. Training would be one of the single biggest improvements you could make, and it's going to carry with you from bike to bike.

However, rastus from memory was doing this a while ago, and I think almost no-one took up the offer? As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink...

Plus, completely agree with comments re right attitude. But then the other conundrum is that those that don't do the courses are often the ones that need them the most. ... mmm

I think word getting out on the quality of the instructors will generate a greater uptake of these courses:D

[Akzle]

I think word getting out on the quality of the instructors will generate a greater uptake of these courses:D

attgatt... ATTGATT!!!!



that green makes the busa look fat.

[awayatc]

O
Just a starter for ten.

I've just posted a ticket out to a bloke to blitzed up the cycle lane past me (I wasn't working at the time)



You give being anal retentive a whole new meaning.....
A whole new dimension to being a zero

I finaly see what you are doing....
I finaly know what happens to the little nerds at school nobody likes...
You know you are a very unpopular little person in a job that attracts its fair share of powercrazed nobody's
you know everybody knows you are a c**t
you got no friends..
no real friends that is,
so you post on here to try to get some support
so you can briefly, temporarily relish in the illusion that you are biker,
that you are just one of the boys,
that you belong.....
But you better then anybody else know you are just a wee dispicable turd.

giving tickets while on duty is one thing,
you may cry yourself to sleep believing you are just doing your duty...

To issue tickets when you are off duty.....?


rastus cat?
More like wurm .......

[R650R]

Would you do a course with no incentive at all,other than you might ( re) learn something?

No and why?????????????????????????????????????

I accept for some people, many in fact there will be an aha moment of clarity. But I've done enough kms's (in the millions) in professional and private use across multiple platforms to the point where my own system works for me.
In related arenas I've sat courses for Hazardous goods, Forklift refresher (basically the full monty course anyway) and VHF Coastgaurd radio.
Now the first two I learnt absolutely nothing new related to safety and made no changes to the way I already did things. Couple of useful tips on radio course but then I was a newbie at that.
The VHF course was actually interesting and informative. The Hazmat and forklift courses were three full days of my life wasted and akin to Vietcong bamboo split level torture.

By the way my system for road safety is making sure me and the motor are up to task before the journey, plan ahead of where I will refuel and rest, and expect the completely unexpected actions of others absolutely anywhere anytime. Lane positioning, hazard spotting yada yada yada all natural to me.

Also the last thread we had about this nanny state nonsense I asked people who'd been on these comforting reach around sessions to state just one thing they had picked up they didn't know about before. The silence was deafening...

[R650R]

I think word getting out on the quality of the instructors will generate a greater uptake of these courses:D

Well they'll be skittled at the first junction with those painted over indicators... ;p

[pritch]

O


You give being anal retentive a whole new meaning.....
A whole new dimension to being a zero

I finaly see what you are doing....
I finaly know what happens to the little nerds at school nobody likes...
You know you are a very unpopular little person in a job that attracts its fair share of powercrazed nobody's
you know everybody knows you are a c**t
you got no friends..
no real friends that is,
so you post on here to try to get some support
so you can briefly, temporarily relish in the illusion that you are biker,
that you are just one of the boys,
that you belong.....
But you better then anybody else know you are just a wee dispicable turd.

giving tickets while on duty is one thing,
you may cry yourself to sleep believing you are just doing your duty...

To issue tickets when you are off duty.....?


rastuscat?
More like rastus pussy.......

Don't hold back. Tell him what you really think.

[awayatc]

trust me....
I am holding back....

[Ulsterkiwi]

No and why?????????????????????????????????????

I accept for some people, many in fact there will be an aha moment of clarity. But I've done enough kms's (in the millions) in professional and private use across multiple platforms to the point where my own system works for me.
In related arenas I've sat courses for Hazardous goods, Forklift refresher (basically the full monty course anyway) and VHF Coastgaurd radio.
Now the first two I learnt absolutely nothing new related to safety and made no changes to the way I already did things. Couple of useful tips on radio course but then I was a newbie at that.
The VHF course was actually interesting and informative. The Hazmat and forklift courses were three full days of my life wasted and akin to Vietcong bamboo split level torture.

By the way my system for road safety is making sure me and the motor are up to task before the journey, plan ahead of where I will refuel and rest, and expect the completely unexpected actions of others absolutely anywhere anytime. Lane positioning, hazard spotting yada yada yada all natural to me.

Also the last thread we had about this nanny state nonsense I asked people who'd been on these comforting reach around sessions to state just one thing they had picked up they didn't know about before. The silence was deafening...

I have no reason to doubt your ability or experience. What I would suggest, is the reason the courses you mention were a waste of your time (have been on those myself) is that they were not pitched at a level appropriate to you or your existing knowledge and experience. Correct me if I am wrong but these examples sound like a standardised, tick box kind of course you need to complete to maintain certification etc. They are ALWAYS written to the lowest common denominator.
I would argue therefore that there is always something for you to learn or reconsider. As an educator I would have to say a huge plus for the way the ACC courses are run is the flexibility there is to adapt to the 'student' who turns up and assist them to raise their game from where they currently sit. Clearly that's easier to do with someone who has more to learn (like myself). Perhaps this format is not the way to progress your knowledge or skills, that doesn't mean it cant be done.

If its of interest, my 'reach around' as you put it provided me with a number of things

1. I have now experienced (albeit in controlled conditions) what I can make my bike do in terms of very heavy braking
2. I have experienced the limits of balancing my bike in low speed cornering
3. I have learned a better system for positioning myself and my bike in traffic and at intersections
4. I have learned a better system of handling effectively a road which is new to me
5. I have learned ways to read more effectively the actions and likely actions of other road users

Like I said before I am a newbie so its easy to find something I dont know but that was a pretty well spent day so far as I am concerned.

[Akzle]

I have no reason to doubt your ability or experience. What I would suggest, is the reason the courses you mention were a waste of your time (have been on those myself) is that they were not pitched at a level appropriate to you or your existing knowledge and experience. Correct me if I am wrong but these examples sound like a standardised, tick box kind of course you need to complete to maintain certification etc. They are ALWAYS written to the lowest common denominator.
I would argue therefore that there is always something for you to learn or reconsider. As an educator I would have to say a huge plus for the way the ACC courses are run is the flexibility there is to adapt to the 'student' who turns up and assist them to raise their game from where they currently sit. Clearly that's easier to do with someone who has more to learn (like myself). Perhaps this format is not the way to progress your knowledge or skills, that doesn't mean it cant be done.

If its of interest, my 'reach around' as you put it provided me with a number of things

1. I have now experienced (albeit in controlled conditions) what I can make my bike do in terms of very heavy braking
2. I have experienced the limits of balancing my bike in low speed cornering
3. I have learned a better system for positioning myself and my bike in traffic and at intersections
4. I have learned a better system of handling effectively a road which is new to me
5. I have learned ways to read more effectively the actions and likely actions of other road users

Like I said before I am a newbie so its easy to find something I dont know but that was a pretty well spent day so far as I am concerned.

youll never make it.
Everyone on kb knows everything already.

[Ulsterkiwi]

youll never make it.
Everyone on kb knows everything already.

yeah, there is that.... :laugh:

[rastuscat]

O


You give being anal retentive a whole new meaning.....
A whole new dimension to being a zero

I finaly see what you are doing....
I finaly know what happens to the little nerds at school nobody likes...
You know you are a very unpopular little person in a job that attracts its fair share of powercrazed nobody's
you know everybody knows you are a c**t
you got no friends..
no real friends that is,
so you post on here to try to get some support
so you can briefly, temporarily relish in the illusion that you are biker,
that you are just one of the boys,
that you belong.....
But you better then anybody else know you are just a wee dispicable turd.

giving tickets while on duty is one thing,
you may cry yourself to sleep believing you are just doing your duty...

To issue tickets when you are off duty.....?


rastus cat?
More like wurm .......

Just for the record.

I see all variety of fucktard riding when I'm working. I deal with it like I should, depending on your definition of should. I suppose.

I see even more Darwin-Theory evolutionary elimination riding when I'm off duty. This is not your average broke-a-technical-law-style riding. It's the truly-retarded-temporary-citizen-style thing. I largely ignore the majority of it, as I know how much grief it is to follow shit up that happens in personal time.

But some shit is just too much to ignore. So I make a mental note, and follow it up when I'm next at work, normally the next day.

If you don't want to be seen riding like a knob end, don't ride like a knob end. I've always been one for simple theories.

Why does it matter how someone gets caught? The action taken arises from the riding/driving, surely how one gets caught matters little? In this case I only pursued it as I saw an opportunity to pressure someone who takes risks to do some professional training. His choice totally, inflicted by himself when he rode in a manner which gave me the opportunity.

Don't give us the opportunity. Easy.

[Berries]

As a rule, it's the risk takers who think they are shit hot that could benefit the most from training, but they wont get it because they think they are shit hot.
So by implication you are saying that riding in a cycle lane is risk taking? The biggest risk would appear to be getting a ticket.

Some people don't know the rules, some do it out of arrogance and some just do it because they can. I'm not really sure how taking a riding course is going to improve the situation when they got a ticket for breaking a rule, not for doing something inherently dangerous other than being on two wheels and living in Christchurch.

I am getting a feeling of deja vu with this thread.

[rastuscat]

So by implication you are saying that riding in a cycle lane is risk taking? The biggest risk would appear to be getting a ticket.


Actually the risk of being knocked off is far greater than the risk of being ticketed for it.

Here in Chur Chur we attend at least 3 per week where cyclists, moped and motorcycle riders get knocked off by people turning aacross cycle lanes.

Still, as nobody ever thinks it will happen to them, nobody ever thinks they have to change their behaviour.

Trouble is, it does happen to someone. About 3 someones per week, actually. Which is the only reason I give a shit about it.

[R650R]

1. I have now experienced (albeit in controlled conditions) what I can make my bike do in terms of very heavy braking
2. I have experienced the limits of balancing my bike in low speed cornering
3. I have learned a better system for positioning myself and my bike in traffic and at intersections
4. I have learned a better system of handling effectively a road which is new to me
5. I have learned ways to read more effectively the actions and likely actions of other road users



1. Been there done that in uncontrolled conditions and trackdays. I've avoided two t bone crashes at 50k junctions with some pretty choice front end braking that saw the front end starting to wash out and the back of the bike sideways and off the deck. If you've got well maintained tyres and brakes they are plenty capable. Pure panic breaking really but a well ingrained two finger technique meant power but finesse enough to ease of once at lock/tuck point.

2. I've gone past the limits of low speed balance point :(

3,4 and 5 sound very Amway/infomercialish... I've always maintained driving a road for the first time is the safest trip you'll ever make across it. Your natural survival instincts somehow outweigh nearly all bad habits briefly :)


Sounds like its worked for you, my point is forcing stuff on people doesn't work for majority...

[rastuscat]

my point is forcing stuff on people doesn't work for majority...

I'm totally against compulsory things too. But I'm not beyond giving someone an incentive to make a good choice.

[R650R]

Still, as nobody ever thinks it will happen to them, nobody ever thinks they have to change their behaviour.

Trouble is, it does happen to someone. About 3 someones per week, actually. Which is the only reason I give a shit about it.

It would be interesting to go back through the stats and compare crash rates to when there were no cycle lanes. You'd have to somehow correct for the change in user numbers on both car and bike. But I reckon there were likely less before the "this is my space" attitude came along where I can pedal fast staring at my front axle with my ipod going....
Separate lanes, some motorways have 8-10 of them and still people crash...

[Ocean1]

So, will the suggested course teach the offender anything he didn't already know about the legality of this particular stunt?

And if not then wtf is the point?

[mossy1200]

BAAH funny thread.

Im not doing the course because I don't ride on cycle lanes.:soon:

[R650R]

I'm totally against compulsory things too. But I'm not beyond giving someone an incentive to make a good choice.

Yes agreed, see my more long winded post, the incentive is only $100 less than carrying on in ones own bubble. Actually the most annoying thing about my last law enforcement interaction was that one of your colleagues took about 20mins to ticket me from whoa to go. 20mins doesn't sound like much but that cost me over an hour as I caught the early shift womble traffic around tokoroa etc... Oh and getting one of those new supermarket checkout style tickets really pissed me, no where near as official looking for pinning on the beer fridge in the shed (not everyone screws them up in a rage, plenty like to pin them up on the garage wall for a later embellished story with lads).
So yeah that 20mins sucked more than the $80 and 15 demerit points on a clean license.
Don't think wellywood would be sold on the idea of a penalty of say forbidding a speeder/rule breaker from driving for say 30mins instead fines revenue though...

[rastuscat]

So, will the suggested course teach the offender anything he didn't already know about the legality of this particular stunt?

And if not then wtf is the point?

Point is that it's another opportunity to look inward and realise that he's not as shit hot as he thinks.

Meh, maybe you're right, I'll go back to not giving a shit, paper the world with ticketey wicketies and not give a shit if it changes nothing.

Harumph.

[Ulsterkiwi]

1. Been there done that in uncontrolled conditions and trackdays. I've avoided two t bone crashes at 50k junctions with some pretty choice front end braking that saw the front end starting to wash out and the back of the bike sideways and off the deck. If you've got well maintained tyres and brakes they are plenty capable. Pure panic breaking really but a well ingrained two finger technique meant power but finesse enough to ease of once at lock/tuck point.

2. I've gone past the limits of low speed balance point :(

3,4 and 5 sound very Amway/infomercialish... I've always maintained driving a road for the first time is the safest trip you'll ever make across it. Your natural survival instincts somehow outweigh nearly all bad habits briefly :)


Sounds like its worked for you, my point is forcing stuff on people doesn't work for majority...

Hmmm, I did think about a trackday, my observation (from limited experience) is those I know who try to improve on a trackday continue by using the road like a race track, fair enough for them, I dont want to and I would imagine neither does Ratuscat or his colleagues :Police:
Had sphincter testing braking event not two weeks ago on my daily commute, I wish I had the insights then I do now. I would still have had to deal with the situation but it would have been less stressful, so yeah, real life is ALWAYS better than simulation!

I hear you about points 3-5. Not my intention. Maybe a better way to express it would be, here are three things I thought I was handling pretty well. After trying out these suggestions I have had a rethink and these approaches work way better for me.

Yup, it definitely worked for me! I guess the advantage of this over your story is I didnt need to do gazillions or kms to do that, I have benefited from the experiences of others. I kinda like that.

I also understand your point about compulsion. In fact, I agree in so far that the learning you do because someone directs you to do it will always be limited in comparison to what you elect to do yourself.
So the challenge then perhaps should be how to convince people (other than by compulsion) there is merit in seeking training. ACC is trying to do that in fairness but like any marketing campaign its not going to work for everyone.

[Ocean1]

Point is that it's another opportunity to look inward and realise that he's not as shit hot as he thinks.

Meh, maybe you're right, I'll go back to not giving a shit, paper the world with ticketey wicketies and not give a shit if it changes nothing.

Harumph.

To be honest his would be the last sort of behaviour I'd have targeted for a riding skills course. Straightforward standard ping in response to a simple broken rule seems to be more the go.

Now if you found someone displaying obvious signs of skill deficit then that form of training might well prove a game changer.

Edit: surely you see as many wobbly newbies making poor decisions down there as you do around here? Make their day.

[willytheekid]

what a pack of pricks! :motu::laugh:

...guys riding in a cycle lane (illegal and bloody dangerous)
normal process, FINE! (the end)

Rastus goes an offers the guy an "alternative" (this is not "compulsory"...to clarify for some :facepalm:)
Either...
Pay the fine! (the end)
or
Go to a cheap riding session, save some money and maybe learn about the dumb shit your presently doing, that may just cost you your life one day....like riding in a fucking cycle lane!

but NOOOO....lets take a run up and kick rastuscat in the nuts for DARING to offer an alternative.


I mean seriously
299237

:yawn:screw it Rastus....just start throwing sticks in there front wheel, might speed up the whole Darwin process an all that :yes:

[Oakie]

I did a course a couple of years back and I'd happily do another one.

Rastuscat ... don't read this bit :)
As one who in very particular circumstances will dribble up the cycle lane to get a head start on a slow vehicle at a give way I might get the chance to do another course huh?. Better keep an eye on the letter box I guess. (My rules for bike lane dribbling ... traffic has to be stopped, got to be a slow vehicle (like a truck) as the target, no cyclists in the bike lane ... and I only move at about 10kph). Still not 100% safe but happy enough to do it as long as I stay aware of what's going on around me.

[buggerit]

Dear Sir , I am writing to enquire if you would like a $150 fine and 15 demerit points, or would you prefer to pay $20 and muck around on your bike for
a few hours brushing up your roadcraft with a skilled trainer?
No brainer really isn't it.

[Smifffy]

WTF?
a. Ignore option to take course
b. Ignore fine
c. Accumulate more fines
d. Ignore those fines
e. Play more Grand Theft Auto
f. Get fines swapped for commy service by courts
g. Ignore commy service
h. Play more grand theft auto
i. repeat from c

Isn't it done like that any more?

[Berries]

I'm totally against compulsory things too.
Except not riding in cycle lanes it seems.


Meh, maybe you're right, I'll go back to not giving a shit, paper the world with ticketey wicketies and not give a shit if it changes nothing.
You didn't really expect everyone on KB to give you three cheers did you?

Thought I had read all this before. (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/146632-Okay-how-about-this/page12?highlight=rastuscat+training+ticket)

[rastuscat]

Posted this coz I'm basically gob smacked at how few people took up the offer.

We first did it a couple of years back, but it died a death when

Bugger all riders got tickets, so bugger all were given the option
Then those that had the option failed to take the option up.

I'm now just using it on an ad hoc basis, and I'm looking for any more innovative ways to improve safety.

Suggestions?

[Akzle]

I'm now just using it on an ad hoc basis, and I'm looking for any more innovative ways to improve safety.

Suggestions?

dont. Its not your job. Your job is policy enforcement.
Target cagers and cyclists. See how many licenses and bicycles you can collect in a day. Start a competition with your homies.
The courts will love you for drumming up more business.

Just hang ueys in front of bikers doing dumb shit. You wont get charged.

[Berries]

I'm now just using it on an ad hoc basis, and I'm looking for any more innovative ways to improve safety.

Suggestions?
In the end education mainly comes through the wallet and through demerits. If offered I would go on a course reluctantly and probably with blinkers on just to avoid the cost of the ticket. While in an ideal world your suggestion does have merit in the real world I am not sure.

If you want to improve road safety then you have to look at the real safety issues. Yes, riding in a cycle lane comes at a risk to the rider, perhaps they understand that just like some do when filtering down the middle of a lane. You'd be better off dealing to people after they have actually been in a crash and have hard evidence that what they were doing, even if the 'innocent' party, wasn't enough.

May I suggest concentrating on crash causing offences that hurt others rather than just hurt the at fault party? If you crash and hurt yourself it is your own fault generally. If you crash and hurt someone else that is another matter. Failing to stop at a stop sign just because it is a stop sign does not cause crashes. Failing to give way at a stop sign or a give way sign does. Nick them. Not wearing your seatbelt is not going to hurt anyone but yourself, don't waste time on it. Darwin will sort those ones out for you.

Here's one to throw out there. If you are involved in three crashes on a motorbike in X number of years then you get your bike licence revoked for being shit before you kill yourself. That one fits well with the Safer Journeys philosophy.

[willytheekid]

....Suggestions?

introduce ACTUAL compulsory driver training?...get judges to hand out ACTUAL sentences to repeat drunk drivers etc?...and stop focusing so whole heartedly on the average kiwi driver and shift focus to the extreme end of offenders (and ensure that they are removed from the roads permanently!)...oh, and stop them building straight roads!!, an engaged driver is a safe driver:yes: (...and its win-win for us:laugh:)

There!...that should improve things to the point that picking the days donut range will be your biggest issue:niceone:...that and ignoring wheelies!:eek:

299239

yeah:rolleyes:...nice thought though aye:laugh:


honestly...dunno sorry:o (I just fix IT stuff & Ride...but Im always keen to stay riding for longer!, so keep up the great work on our behalf:niceone:)

[Ocean1]

Suggestions?

Yeah, stick it to the seriously dangerous behaviour, I know you can't be everywhere but there's plenty of it. The cameras on traffic lights I heartily approve of, and would have snapped three very very late incidences I saw in the space of 10 minutes yesterday.

Leave the nit-picking 56kph on Oxford tce shit out of it, nobody appreciates it and it's doing nothing positive for anyone.

Oh, and this:


WTF?
a. Ignore option to take course
b. Ignore fine
c. Accumulate more fines
d. Ignore those fines
e. Play more Grand Theft Auto
f. Get fines swapped for commy service by courts
g. Ignore commy service
h. Play more grand theft auto
i. repeat from c

Fix that, 'cause it's behaviour that benefits nobody, and it's not a good look for any institution supposedly enforcing rules.

[R650R]

dont. Its not your job. Your job is policy enforcement.

That's the best advice for you guys Rastus. Somewhere along the way your lot had a bit of mission creep, prob because there's no LTSA or govt guys roadside at the scene of carnage.
So over the years reporters have played on your emotions and gotten some good sound bites.
Really you should be saying to the reporters "Sorry we're just the cleaners, we have no idea how this crazy shit happened" and then direct them to hospital ward to interview any survivors.
It takes a few years but eventually you see the inside of an ICU ward without crashing thanks to mates or perhaps family with cancer etc, that sure makes you realise how fragile we are.

Stop letting manufacturers advertise 'safety features' like airbags and side intrusion beams as it gives a false sense of security. Give a rego discount for uptake of these items but don't let that risk compensation thing creep in.
I used to feel pretty safe in truck, even after surviving a head on with a drunk(still wasn't a pleasant or injury free experience) and the manufacturers there especially Euro trucks promote how strong their cabs are.
Then I went to Europe where truck v truck crashes are way more common than here. Holy hell did that make me start to pay attention to where I was pointed on highway and be very pro active about safety.
BTW in the UK they don't have all the distracting road toll propoganda we have here that turns people off, just a decent driver training/test structure and no nonsense cops. I delivered foodstuffs to some of the prisons there for a short time too, absolutely miserable mediaeval age cold stone wall places you want to stay out of.

[rastuscat]

Rastuscat ... don't read this bit :)
As one who in very particular circumstances will dribble up the cycle lane to get a head start on a slow vehicle at a give way I might get the chance to do another course huh?. Better keep an eye on the letter box I guess. (My rules for bike lane dribbling ... traffic has to be stopped, got to be a slow vehicle (like a truck) as the target, no cyclists in the bike lane ... and I only move at about 10kph). Still not 100% safe but happy enough to do it as long as I stay aware of what's going on around me.

Dude, I see people doing that most days, and do nothing about it.

It's the knobs who treat cycle lanes as mini motorways that get my back up.

[pritch]

WTF?
a. Ignore option to take course
b. Ignore fine
c. Accumulate more fines
d. Ignore those fines
e. Play more Grand Theft Auto
f. Get fines swapped for commy service by courts
g. Ignore commy service
h. Play more grand theft auto
i. repeat from c

Isn't it done like that any more?

Sadly, that is all too often exactly how it goes.

Had a case at work a few years back. One of our staff was out on business, it was raining so a fuckwit in his gutless little heap of shit was out wheelspinning.
He came flying around a corner on the wrong side of the road wiping out our man who was injured in the crash. Fuckwit exits laughing. About $12,000 damage to our then new car.

Our man having been a cop in Britain was a good witness and had taken fuckwit's rego. Police attending said, "This is good, we've been after him for ages."

So did they charge him with hit and run, dangerous driving causing injury, or something equally serious? No, they charged him with failing to keep left.
Gotta say I was very underwhelmed.

Our insurance company went after the fuckwit who then maintained he was not at fault. I phoned the Police who told me he had not attended court, had been found guilty and fined. That fine had been added to the $6,000 worth of fines that he already owed but wasn't paying. I advised the insurance company accordingly. Here's hoping the insurance people were more determined to collect than the justice system is.

"The only people who are policed are those who permit themselves to be policed."

[Akzle]

"The only people who are policed are those who permit themselves to be policed."

this is les crux.
Ive incurred a similar amount of fines, before i wised up to the fact that the whole system is bullshit and that theyre voluntary. But anyway. None of them changed my behavior, at all.
Ive never hurt anyone in an 'mva'. Which admittedly has been only 70% skill. (30% luck )
however ive somehow reached the point where im fuckall% likely to be in a crash, let alone cause one.
Ive come to peace with the fact that 90% of people are fucking morons (usually with 'vote national' or ' i heart my wife' bumper stickers, or those fucking stick figuire things. There should be fines for THEM).
Whats the majic ingredient?
Cannabis. And woodstock. Have a fat joint and a couple of 8%s before you drive your kids to school. Lulz guaranteed.

[Oakie]

Dude, I see people doing that most days, and do nothing about it.

It's the knobs who treat cycle lanes as mini motorways that get my back up.

Whew! Not wishing to stereotype at all but it seems to be the scooteratti who do that at speed much more often than larger bikes. I suppose it comes from being forced to ride on the far left most of the time so they are used to being there.

[Big Dog]

Just a starter for ten.

I've just posted a ticket out to a bloke to blitzed up the cycle lane past me (I wasn't working at the time) a few days ago.

All processes followed, ticket posted.

I've offered him the option to do one of the ACC subsidised courses.

http://www.rideforever.co.nz/training/

If he does it within 6 weeks, I'll cancel the ticket.

Ticket costs $150 (ridiculous, but I don't set the fines), the training costs $50.

What are the odds that he'll go and do the training? Seems like a good deal to me, but less than half the folk I've offered it to actually take it up.

Are we really so can't be arsed?

I could have used that option this morning...
Paying too much attention to staying clear of the trucks jockying for position and not enough to the speedo on the way down the Bombay hills.
Oh well, not going to cry about first ticket in 8 years.