Police traffic enforcement inconsistency?

[Digitdion]

A couple of days ago I was reading about the Dutch businessman who killed 3 people down in Canterbury.
The night before he crashes a rental. He gets another rental, the next morning and gets a speeding ticket. Then he runs a stop sign and kills 3 people.
No jail time. The judge says it will not do any good. He bans or disqualifies him( sorry forgot which exactly) for 15 months. Hay, he does not even have an Nz license to be disqualified. Oh and its all,ok because he paid some cash up front to the victims families.

All while this is going on police are out there handing out tickets left right and centre to ordinary people who may have just sped a bit to much but no harm done.

Yes I agree that speed kills. That's all speed from 10 kph to 200 kph whatever. Speed,is relative to the conditions.
But I certainly do not agree with all the subjective propaganda being feed to us by the police, and there reasonings behind there law enforcement techniques. But I digress........

The seems to be a lack of consistency. I used to drive the Milford road. A classic example,of a road where there was lots of accidents by tourist drivers. A road where if there was more education to those tourists it clear that a majority of the accidents would not occur. Also more of a police presence into Milford would help big time as well.
I had a bit to do with the Designated Milford road copper. He was frank, when I spoke with him. I asked why all,the Te Anau police were always out on the straight roads on the way to Queenstown "policing" ( that's giving out speeding tickets and lots of them) when all the accidents where on the road into Milford. His basic words to the effect was he is expected to give out a certain amount of tickets. No mention of a quota though!
And spending time on the Milford road he could not do that. Now I reckon he would drive into Milford maybe once a month for god sake. Even though that's were the majority of crashes where.

Any how, Back to the point I want to make.

It seems to me that there is a lot of inconsistency out there with the policing on our roads.
This is being driven by enforcement that is way to tough on minor infringements.

Also big inconsistencies when it comes to sentencing people who have "really broken the rules."

Just some thoughts........

[Jantar]

.....
I had a bit to do with the Designated Milford road copper. He was frank, when I spoke with him. I asked why all,the Te Anau police were always out on the straight roads on the way to Queenstown "policing" ( that's giving out speeding tickets and lots of them) when all the accidents where on the road into Milford. His basic words to the effect was he is expected to give out a certain amount of tickets. No mention of a quota though!
And spending time on the Milford road he could not do that. Now I reckon he would drive into Milford maybe once a month for god sake. Even though that's were the majority of crashes where.........
Every time I travel between Alexandra and Hamilton I see exactly the same thing. Lots of traffic enforcement on the easy sections of road, very little in the areas where you really have to concentrate.

[unstuck]

Been to Queenstown 3 times in the last 2 weeks and seen a total of 9 police cars between 5 rivers and Queenstown, 2 of those on 2 separate occasions were parked in the jollys pass rest area.
No doubt eating donuts, the bastards. I may stop on my next trip, and see if they have any spare donuts. I like donuts. :love:

And I thought that cops name was Jim, not Frank.:msn-wink:

[Akzle]

:crybaby::violin:

[Akzle]

that was a ridiculous sentence. Most are.
For him, fifty lashes then 3 months as a dummy in a crash test lab.
-the world according to bob.

[nodrog]

...............

Yes I agree that speed kills.....................

:laugh::laugh:

[Digitdion]

Been to Queenstown 3 times in the last 2 weeks and seen a total of 9 police cars between 5 rivers and Queenstown,nk:

That's pretty standard on most days. I have driving many k's all over Nz on a commercial basis, and I reckon it's the most policed road in Nz. Especially when you consider when comparing numbers of vehicles to busy north island roads. It's a joke!

The politicians, and the police thru subjective propaganda are turning people,who commit minor driving offense into publicly perceived criminals.

What a waste of time and money! People,will always die on our roads.
It sad yes! But unavoidable. We are humans not robots!

Stop,wasting money on the hierarchy who who just want to,justify there jobs, stop,wasting money on over policing.
The are better ways to get messages thru!

[unstuck]

Meh, I see more police traffic between Mataura and winton than that in a day sometimes.:msn-wink:

[Digitdion]

Meh, I see more police traffic between Mataura and winton than that in a day sometimes.:msn-wink:

Maybe we have to give the coppers some real work to do! LOL

[unstuck]

Maybe we have to give the coppers some real work to do! LOL

Maybe some of us are. :msn-wink:

[buggerit]

I recently did 6000km including a lap round the SI and I saw more cops between Wellie and Bulls than the whole of the SI so quit moaning you lucky lucky bartards ( and your ones give a friendly flash of the red and blues):rolleyes:

[Digitdion]

I recently did 6000km including a lap round the SI and I saw more cops between Wellie and Bulls than the whole of the SI so quit moaning you lucky lucky bartards ( and your ones give a friendly flash of the red and blues):rolleyes:

That's because they are hiding up In the trees trying to get a photo of you crossing the centre line. You need to keep a better eye out. LOL
Anyhow, what sentence do you think the Dutchman should have got?

Maybe if they had put him in jail for a few months, to pay for it the coppers could have handed out a few more tickets. Maybe bought done the speeding threshold! LOL

[pritch]

I haven't been to TeAnau or Milford and I generally try to stay away from Queenstown unless I'm going to Cardrona or whatever. On one of my SI tours though the radar detector went off in the Lewis pass on the way to the West Coast and then stayed quiet until just north of Dunedin. Three days without a cop. Wonderful.

On that particular trip I stopped and had a coffee with SD and his lady while passing through the Riviera of the South, but for the purposes of this discussion that doesn't count.

[buggerit]

Anyhow, what sentence do you think the Dutchman should have got?
A month working as an orderlies assistant in ChCh hospital on top of what he got plus compulsory driver training at his own cost before he is allowed back on NZ roads(after his 15 month suspension)

[Berries]

plus compulsory driver training at his own cost before he is allowed back on NZ roads
Yes, because that will certainly make him see the stop sign next time. Can't think why New Zealanders do it all the time what with our rigorous driver training.

[thepom]

last year on public holiday my valentine went off eleven times between dunners and queenstown...safety my fucking arse....it was all about money and still is.....people are slowing down so revenue is down so they drop the speed tolerance to five kmph....kaching !.... slightly bitter as was clocked by plod and camera crew doing 138 just after newyear......smarty copper said another two kph and I would have been walking ....smarty arse me says well I was,nt and I,m not ! ......then ate beans for two month,s to pay the fine......sick of beans I was ha ha

[buggerit]

Yes, because that will certainly make him see the stop sign next time. Can't think why New Zealanders do it all the time what with our rigorous driver training.

I would question his general ability to concentrate on the job at hand of keeping the car on the road given his track record.
Maybe coming from a country with good public transport can limit a tourists experience behind the wheel.

[unstuck]

last year on public holiday my valentine went off eleven times between dunners and queenstown...safety my fucking arse....it was all about money and still is.....people are slowing down so revenue is down so they drop the speed tolerance to five kmph....kaching !.... slightly bitter as was clocked by plod and camera crew doing 138 just after newyear......smarty copper said another two kph and I would have been walking ....smarty arse me says well I was,nt and I,m not ! ......then ate beans for two month,s to pay the fine......sick of beans I was ha ha

Probably one of the worst stretches of road to speed on, between Milton and Qtown. Some crafty buggers patrolling that stretch.:niceone:

[Ocean1]

Probably one of the worst stretches of road to speed on, between Milton and Qtown. Some crafty buggers patrolling that stretch.:niceone:

Taupeka west Rd. :niceone:

[unstuck]

Taupeka west Rd. :niceone:

Shit no, thats scummys patch. Im staying the fuck away from there. That fucker would lock me up.:shit:

[Ocean1]

Shit no, thats scummys patch. Im staying the fuck away from there. That fucker would lock me up.:shit:

Well he failed to lock me up the last few times I was down that way.

It's a fucking nice piece of road though, local filf pursuit capabilities notwithstanding.

[unstuck]

Well he failed to lock me up the last few times I was down that way.

It's a fucking nice piece of road though, local filf pursuit capabilities notwithstanding.

Actually that is a good loop up to Beaumont and back down to Clydevale.:niceone:

[tigertim20]

Probably one of the worst stretches of road to speed on, between Milton and Qtown. Some crafty buggers patrolling that stretch.:niceone:

which is a shame since there are some great stretches of road that are just begging to be ridden in a spirited fashion!.
At least very few of them bother you along the crown range though:bleh:

[Ocean1]

Actually that is a good loop up to Beaumont and back down to Clydevale.:niceone:

Now why did I always turn right just before Lawrence? That Rongahere rd looks at least as good.

Funny rounded quartz stones in the road mix?

[unstuck]

which is a shame since there are some great stretches of road that are just begging to be ridden in a spirited fashion!.
At least very few of them bother you along the crown range though:bleh:

Turn off at millers flat sometime, and have a fang up to Roxburgh on the other side of the river. Thats a nice wee stretch.:niceone:

[unstuck]

That Rongahere rd looks at least as good.

Funny rounded quartz stones in the road mix?

Actually a pretty good surface down that side, is a great bit of road though. Shame DOC have let all the rest areas down there go, there were some good spots for a break along there years ago.

[R650R]

Did you ever see any donut shops between te anau and milford, the poor buggers would starve to death out there.
Life's not fair, get over it...

[awayatc]

There are no quota's.....
Cops are only there to protect us from ourselves....
if you get a ticket you have to
Take it like a man,
Tell everybody how nice the copper was to deal with
be proud of the fact you dont whinge about it.....

[unstuck]

There are no quota's.....
Cops are only there to protect us from ourselves....
if you get a ticket you have to
Take it like a man,
Tell everybody how nice the copper was to deal with
be proud of the fact you dont whinge about it.....

:clap::clap::clap:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/SVTueuGHQgc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>:Punk::Punk:

[Berries]

One thought about the Milford Road. Unless you work on it or in Milford Sound then you are a tourist, wherever you come from.

[gjm]

I was stopped and cautioned on SH1 north of Huntly t'other day, in fog. I'd been doing 90-95km/h, but Mr Plod suggested this was too fast for the conditions. First case of someone being stopped for inappropriate speeding I'd heard of - it should happen more often.

However, I explained I was sure I could stop in the road distance visible. He said that I couldn't. I said "I could easily come to a stop before reaching that vehicle up there on the shoulder." He looked, laughed, and said "What vehicle?"

As if by magic, said vehicle (which I could see) put his brakes on, making him instantly visible to Mr Plod. "Oh... That vehicle..."

I asked what he planned to do about the 3 cars that had passed me, all travelling in excess of 100km/h, less than 10m apart, and with the middle vehicle not even showing any lights.

He suggested I reduce my speed to be in accordance with the conditions, wished me a good day, and sent me on my way.

[gjm]

I was stopped and cautioned on SH1 north of Huntly t'other day, in fog. I'd been doing 90-95km/h, but Mr Plod suggested this was too fast for the conditions. First case of someone being stopped for inappropriate speeding I'd heard of - it should happen more often.

However, I explained I was sure I could stop in the road distance visible. He said that I couldn't. I said "I could easily come to a stop before reaching that vehicle up there on the shoulder." He looked, laughed, and said "What vehicle?"

As if by magic, said vehicle (which I could see) put his brakes on, making him instantly visible to Mr Plod. "Oh... That vehicle..."

I asked what he planned to do about the 3 cars that had passed me, all travelling in excess of 100km/h, less than 10m apart, and with the middle vehicle not even showing any lights.

He suggested I reduce my speed to be in accordance with the conditions, wished me a good day, and sent me on my way.

No, it's not (for me) a victory over the power of road traffic law enforcement (however annoying it may have been), but it does seem to fit with the OP's title for this thread.

[Akzle]

I was stopped and cautioned on SH1 north of Huntly t'other day, in fog. I'd been doing 90-95km/h, but Mr Plod suggested this was too fast for the conditions. First case of someone being stopped for inappropriate speeding I'd heard of - it should happen more often.

However, I explained I was sure I could stop in the road distance visible. He said that I couldn't. I said "I could easily come to a stop before reaching that vehicle up there on the shoulder." He looked, laughed, and said "What vehicle?"

As if by magic, said vehicle (which I could see) put his brakes on, making him instantly visible to Mr Plod. "Oh... That vehicle..."

I asked what he planned to do about the 3 cars that had passed me, all travelling in excess of 100km/h, less than 10m apart, and with the middle vehicle not even showing any lights.

He suggested I reduce my speed to be in accordance with the conditions, wished me a good day, and sent me on my way.

you should have punched him in the cock for wasting police time

[caspernz]

One song sums it up....

http://youtu.be/x_wLVCLPx0M?list=RD5PWSmMuBNK0

Although I would like some serious attention to this subject...

http://youtu.be/5PWSmMuBNK0?list=RD5PWSmMuBNK0

[R650R]

One song sums it up....



gjm you have to be the ONLY person I've ever heard of being cautioned/stopped in the fog like that. And in the truck game most never slow down as you cant afford the lost time, although most will slow if tis real brick wall stuff...
Back in the old RoadFrightner days I smoked up a B-train big time on those last curves before the Waikato expressway when out of the fog came a blinding array of flashing lights for an accident scene. And not one of them was parked anywhere near the tarmac!!! Expected to get pulled but guess they couldn't tell which way I went for all the tyre smoke. There's actually laws about using flashing beacons in fog...

I used to play this on the CB to wake up Berg's mates coming down the Bombays...


lyrics on this are a good laugh if you listen closely... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUyvU2Huf24

[caspernz]

I used to play this on the CB to wake up Berg's mates coming down the Bombays...


lyrics on this are a good laugh if you listen closely... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUyvU2Huf24

Here's another to liven up the airwaves on a quiet night...


http://youtu.be/ORyzsMZPPUg

[awayatc]

It seems to me that there is a lot of inconsistency out there with the policing on our roads.
This is being driven by enforcement that is way to tough

Just some thoughts........[/QUOTE]

there are 2 different kind of cops....
real cops
and the tax collecting wanna be cops.
Those traffic cop subspecies also come in 2 different kinds,
one are just mindless ticket writing automatons,
The other a more humane and understanding compassionate and rational kind,
so far the existence of the latter kind remains unconfirmed however...

[gjm]

gjm you have to be the ONLY person I've ever heard of being cautioned/stopped in the fog like that.

I really don't know if he actually intended to give me a ticket, or just the warning I received (even if that may have been about saving face). After all, I wasn't actually doing anything illegal... I was really surprised, and thought I must have a light out or something.

The thought crossed my mind to ask how safe he thought he'd been, given that he couldn't see a car that I could, and that as I had been doing 90-95 he must have been travelling considerably faster.

Oddly, I don't feel any indignance or animosity over this. Just humour.

[Digitdion]

I really don't know if he actually intended to give me a ticket, or just the warning I received (even if that may have been about saving face). After all, I wasn't actually doing anything illegal... I was really surprised, and thought I must have a light out or something.

The thought crossed my mind to ask how safe he thought he'd been, given that he couldn't see a car that I could, and that as I had been doing 90-95 he must have been travelling considerably faster.

Oddly, I don't feel any indignance or animosity over this. Just humour.

Is it a cops job to educate us? To teach us how to be a better driver?
Or to give out tickets and make arrests?

I loved the old police Academy movies. There moto ( opps Motto) was to protect and serve.
Now it seems for modern NZ police on our roads it's to promote subjective propaganda. Promote warm fuzzies about how if we drive a certain way all will be hunky dory.
There system is floored. Yes less people die on the roads. I say it's because of a lot of other things that have nothing to do with police and how over strict they are on things like speed.
Unfortunately I do not have the budget to pay someone loads of money to come up with the paperwork to back that up.

[Berries]

There system is floored.
Your not wrong.

[R650R]

Is it a cops job to educate us? To teach us how to be a better driver?
Or to give out tickets and make arrests?

I loved the old police Academy movies. There moto ( opps Motto) was to protect and serve.
The motto still stands, you've just read it wrong.
Its :To protect the govt and wealthy, and serve summons to appear on all others ;p




Those traffic cop subspecies also come in 2 different kinds,
one are just mindless ticket writing automatons,
The other a more humane and understanding compassionate and rational kind,
so far the existence of the latter kind remains unconfirmed however...
The latter does exist, your description of the first one reminds me of last interaction though...
While bouncing about like grasshopper on steroids he started blabbing about logbook violation as nothing entered for last four hours. Reached down and took book out of his hands and started explaining the laws to him that he should already know himself. Then he proceeded to sulk in his car for 20mins writing out speed ticket (and prob getting told by comms that I was right).
The same ones really don't like being informed about the health and safety requirement to maintain 3 points of contact when climbing side of truck holding breathyliser. I think more truckers are prob injured falling off cab/trailers than from crashes so its only right to warn them of hazards in your workspace but it just gets taken the wrong way....

[FJRider]

The seems to be a lack of consistency. I used to drive the Milford road. A classic example,of a road where there was lots of accidents by tourist drivers. A road where if there was more education to those tourists it clear that a majority of the accidents would not occur. Also more of a police presence into Milford would help big time as well.
I had a bit to do with the Designated Milford road copper. He was frank, when I spoke with him. I asked why all,the Te Anau police were always out on the straight roads on the way to Queenstown "policing" ( that's giving out speeding tickets and lots of them) when all the accidents where on the road into Milford. His basic words to the effect was he is expected to give out a certain amount of tickets. No mention of a quota though!
And spending time on the Milford road he could not do that. Now I reckon he would drive into Milford maybe once a month for god sake. Even though that's were the majority of crashes where.

Only a small minority of the accidents on the Milford road are due to excessive speed. Most are due to sheer stupidity/incompetence. Driving Hire vehicles with little or no experience of driving ... on NZ (or any other) roads. That copper could spend all day on the Milford road and never be at the right place to see (let alone STOP) such stupidity ...


The Highway Patrol TV program recently showed an Indian driver clocked at 143 km/hr on the way to Milford Sound. Then ... asked the copper to give his wife (who wasn't driving) the ticket so HE could continue driving (he didn't trust HER driving skills ?? :scratch:)


Any how, Back to the point I want to make.

It seems to me that there is a lot of inconsistency out there with the policing on our roads.
This is being driven by enforcement that is way to tough on minor infringements.

There IS consistency in the policing .... if you ride/drive over the posted speed limit ... it is likely you will receive a Traffic Infringement Notice.


Also big inconsistencies when it comes to sentencing people who have "really broken the rules."

Just some thoughts........

Hardly the fault of Police ... or Inconsistent Policing ... Look to the Judiciary to sort THAT issue. Sensible Sentencing groups do what they can.

[unstuck]

A.C.A.B. :whistle:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/xlhA22MHWOo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>:innocent::Punk::Punk:

[FJRider]

there are 2 different kind of cops....
real cops
and the tax collecting wanna be cops.
Those traffic cop subspecies also come in 2 different kinds,
one are just mindless ticket writing automatons,
The other a more humane and understanding compassionate and rational kind,
so far the existence of the latter kind remains unconfirmed however...

The General Duties and [Highway Patrol[/I] may wear the same uniform ... but (usually) two different breeds. On the few occasions I've encountered the former ... it was late evening/early morning as they were returning home after a callout. (Usually) more interested in going home rather than (minor) traffic enforcement. A stern lecture/warning (written or verbal) and ... everybody continues on their business ...

Highway Patrol however .. traffic Enforcement is their job. A few I have encountered at all times of the day or night ... have used their discretion ... to MY advantage.

Luck of the draw ... and the attitude of those stopped ... play a large part in the end result.

[rastuscat]

It seems to me that there is a lot of inconsistency out there with the policing on our roads.
This is being driven by enforcement that is way to tough

Just some thoughts........

there are 2 different kind of cops....
real cops
and the tax collecting wanna be cops.
Those traffic cop subspecies also come in 2 different kinds,
one are just mindless ticket writing automatons,
The other a more humane and understanding compassionate and rational kind,
so far the existence of the latter kind remains unconfirmed however...[/QUOTE]


I saw one this morning. In the mirror.

I've had this delusion for maybe 26 years now, the tickets change peoples behaviour. I've witnessed evidence of it, though not always for the best.

As a rule, open road speeds have decreased since the Highway Patrol combined the lower speed tolerances with a See Something, Do Something practice.

I've given up trying to argue the revenue collecting thing. If it were true, the same could be said of anyone. E.G. Dan Carter is a revenue collecting bastard, he kicks goals to increase his value.

I don't get the money from tickets. Whether I write 1 or 2 a day makes nil difference. But I can understand the view that others have on it. I just happen to not agree.

If we had a pill that we could put in the water to make everyone wear seatbelts, that'd be great. Meantime, what we do have is tickets, and that's what we do.

Interesting discussion this. Inconsistency frustrates those inside the organisation too, not just those outside.

[Akzle]

If we had a pill that we could put in the water to make everyone wear seatbelts, that'd be great. Meantime, what we do have is tickets, and that's what we do.

Interesting discussion this. Inconsistency frustrates those inside the organisation too, not just those outside.

know a better idea?
Stop cunts driving into other cunts.

then, seatbelts become irrelevant.

[R650R]

Interesting discussion this. Inconsistency frustrates those inside the organisation too, not just those outside.

But for both sides cop and non cop it boils down again to lifes not fair, deal with it.
There's a cop up this way who apparently never writes up less than $600 worth of fines every time he pulls someone. Apparently even the other cops wont share their donuts with him at smoko time...
The only inconsistency that really irritates me (and its prob a govt/resources issue) is the leniency/lack of investigation when no one is injured in a crash.

Eg: There are certain corners on SH5 Napier-Taupo where you can only rollover if you are a complete moron or fatigued, absent of course swerving to miss someone.
Often the rolled truck will cross the center line or land on the oncoming lanes etc.
Now if no one is injured the matter is treated lightly and little sanction for the driver except maybe lose job.

Contrast this with someone who threatens someone with a knife vs someone who stabs someone to death.
The mere act of threatening someone with a knife is still a major charge and prob jail time.

People would pay more attention if failing to give way or poor overtaking was just as bad as crashing.

[unstuck]

There's a cop up this way who apparently never writes up less than $600 worth of fines every time he pulls someone. .

So everyone he pulls up, has broken a law?

[awayatc]

if you want to beat a dog,

you will always find a stick..........

[Erelyes]

If we had a pill that we could put in the water to make everyone wear seatbelts, that'd be great. Meantime, what we do have is tickets, and that's what we do.

Y'know it still flabbergasts me that there are people around that don't wear em. Both young and old.

[Akzle]

Y'know it still flabbergasts me that there are people around that don't wear em. Both young and old.

im somewhere betwixt, and dont.
A'course, i dont drive into shit...
And theres no seatbelt on dem motobikely.


And ive had at least 9 hundy worth of fines on that alone...
Mmmm mmm. Educational.

[R650R]

So everyone he pulls up, has broken a law?

This aint Kansas up here Dorothy. We've got that many feral rustbuckets running about in the bay that I'm sure its not hard...

[rastuscat]

know a better idea?
Stop cunts driving into other cunts.

then, seatbelts become irrelevant.

At least we agree on that.

[awayatc]

Akzle at least is not delusional......

You seem to believe that feverishly issuing infringements notices is somehow bringing down roadtoll....

[swbarnett]

if you ride/drive over the posted speed limit ... it is likely you will receive a Traffic Infringement Notice.
Bollox.

...

[swbarnett]

I've given up trying to argue the revenue collecting thing. If it were true, the same could be said of anyone. E.G. Dan Carter is a revenue collecting bastard, he kicks goals to increase his value.

I don't get the money from tickets. Whether I write 1 or 2 a day makes nil difference.
It's not the front line cops that are the problem. It's the law makers and those that set the priorities.

And, yes, we are all "revenue gatherers". Otherwise I'd retire tomorrow.


If we had a pill that we could put in the water to make everyone wear seatbelts, that'd be great.
Like hell it would. It matters not the severity of the behaviour you want to change. Brain washing is never the answer and is to be fought at all costs.

[swbarnett]

Y'know it still flabbergasts me that there are people around that don't wear em. Both young and old.
My grandfather never wore one. He had a medical exemption. He never needed one either.

[Akzle]

At least we agree on that.

good, we're gaining traxion (dont worry, i'll get rid of it by the end of the corner).

Now sir oinksalot, how you gonna stop niggers driving into me, hm? Way i see, an oz for not wearing my seatbelt aint making shit safer for no mother fukka, y'a'mean?

[Akzle]

Akzle at least is not delusional......


oh i wouldnt go so far as to say that...

[Akzle]

My grandfather never wore one. He had a medical exemption. He never needed one either.

funny story, about a bob clearly new from the uk.
'wezz yuh seetbalt, aaahr yu exxempt'
'yes, actually, and im exempt from your bullshit unless you can prove contrariwise'
no fines, that day. Despite (allegedly) doing 'up to 95' in a 50 zone, no wof or reg... (it was about 3 in the morning) Poor wee cunt, didnt have many answers that day.

[rastuscat]

good, we're gaining traxion (dont worry, i'll get rid of it by the end of the corner).

Now sir oinksalot, how you gonna stop niggers driving into me, hm? Way i see, an oz for not wearing my seatbelt aint making shit safer for no mother fukka, y'a'mean?

You make the assumption that I would actually want to stop someone driving into you..............

Back in the real world, we are trying to get them to stop being pissed and driving, as there is less chance they'll nail you in the first place.

I can't rule out that some Mufti might have issued a fatwa against you, but we are trying to get people to slow down, so that when they hit you, they don't hit you so hard. Wouldn't you rather they hit you at a lower speed?

[Akzle]

You make the assumption that I would actually want to stop someone driving into you..............

Back in the real world, we are trying to get them to stop being pissed and driving, as there is less chance they'll nail you in the first place.

I can't rule out that some Mufti might have issued a fatwa against you, but we are trying to get people to slow down, so that when they hit you, they don't hit you so hard. Wouldn't you rather they hit you at a lower speed?

no, and i'll be driving drunk tonight, thankee. i expect to see two cars on the roads, neither police.

what i would rather, is that they had the skills/ability/will to determine when they shouldn't be doing shit that'll endanger others, and 'sequently, not do it.

see, the cunt that drives into me, iffen i have my chilln in te waka, is going to die at the scene, i will not be doing a breath test, nor checking the status of their seatbelt.


srsly, how many pissed people crash v how many sober? and how many pissed people wear seatbelts?
you're working in entirely teh wrong direction.

[scumdog]

know a better idea?
Stop cunts driving into other cunts.

then, seatbelts become irrelevant.

Yes, because ALL crashes always involve at least two vehicles colliding....<_<

[scumdog]

But for both sides cop and non cop it boils down again to lifes not fair, deal with it.
There's a cop up this way who apparently never writes up less than $600 worth of fines every time he pulls someone. Apparently even the other cops wont share their donuts with him at smoko time...

.

'Apparently' this and 'apparently' that - you sound like a news-paper, no need for facts....

But the rest of your post ain't too bad.

[Akzle]

Yes, because ALL crashes always involve at least two vehicles colliding....<_<

yea!
but i give not a fuck when cunts end themselves.

[swbarnett]

but we are trying to get people to slow down, so that when they hit you, they don't hit you so hard. Wouldn't you rather they hit you at a lower speed?
This is where it gets harder for those on the front line to understand.

First, I'd rather not be hit at all. This is something that is largely under my control.

On a population basis, however, it's better to have fewer collisions rather than slower ones (assuming that we're still talking about a speed high enough to do at least moderate damage - say 100kph).

It has been shown time and again that a higher speed limit results in fewer collisions. It follows therefore that by slowing down the driving public you are actually increasing the number of collisions. You are actually increasing the amount of carnage overall. QED

[R650R]

'Apparently' this and 'apparently' that - you sound like a news-paper, no need for facts....

But the rest of your post ain't too bad.

I only come here to hone my skills at presenting hearsay evidence ;p

[rastuscat]

This is where it gets harder for those on the front line to understand.

First, I'd rather not be hit at all. This is something that is largely under my control.

On a population basis, however, it's better to have fewer collisions rather than slower ones (assuming that we're still talking about a speed high enough to do at least moderate damage - say 100kph).

It has been shown time and again that a higher speed limit results in fewer collisions. It follows therefore that by slowing down the driving public you are actually increasing the number of collisions. You are actually increasing the amount of carnage overall. QED

I guess that's the underlying assumption of the Safe System approach. Humans will make human mistakes. Better to have them at lower speeds.

Crashes are going to happen. Two points here. It's good to reduce the incidence of crashes, and also to decrease the impact of the crashes that happen.

Seat belts don't stop crashes from happening but sure reduce the injuries arising therefrom. Speed causes some crashes (not many) but it's a major determinant of the outcome of crashes which happen for whatever reason.

It's why we do it.

[FJRider]

Yes, because ALL crashes always involve at least two vehicles colliding....<_<

Not all crashes .. I've managed pretty well on my own a few times ...

[swbarnett]

I guess that's the underlying assumption of the Safe System approach. Humans will make human mistakes. Better to have them at lower speeds.
I think you'll find that the population wide stats will look better with fewer crashes at higher speeds (or at least with a higher speed limit).

Politicians love measuring what happens to the population. They don't give two shits about individuals. Just look at WRBs.


Crashes are going to happen. Two points here. It's good to reduce the incidence of crashes, and also to decrease the impact of the crashes that happen.
If you don't crash (or are crashed into) it matters not what speed you were doing (ask the astronauts).


Seat belts don't stop crashes from happening but sure reduce the injuries arising therefrom.
Indeed. Even airbags can be lethal without them.


Speed causes some crashes (not many)
Physics says otherwise. Yes, some crashes wouldn't have happened at a lower speed (or higher) due to timing. That does not make speed a causative factor. Just a necessary condition.


but it's a major determinant of the outcome of crashes which happen for whatever reason.
This is also debatable. Yes, given the EXACT same set of circumstances at the point of impact except the vehicle speed the damage will be less. However, ALL other factors are far more determinant of the level of damage than the speed. First of all, what really matters in a collision is the momentum, not the speed. Then there's the crumple zones, airbags, seat belts and other systems to consider. The same impact at the same speed will be a lot worse in a '50s car than one made recently.


It's why we do it.
You keep telling yourself that. We all need ways to justify what we do for a crust so we can sleep at night.

[rastuscat]

First of all, what really matters in a collision is the momentum, not the speed.

Is momentum not directly proportional to speed?

Momentum = Mass x Velocity, does it not?

[R650R]

Either or really, but he fails to mention its the momentum or speed of BOTH vehicles that matters as the sum total determines how sticky the final result is.

He's trying to be fancy and some how saw that a lightweight sportsbike is justified in speeding cause he thinks it stops and turns better than a car in same situation.
But the whole significant thing about a crash is that both vehicles never come to a stop before hand, therefore its not about momentum/speed whatever, but how much space and time you have to attempt an alternative trajectory.
There's plenty of people testifying on here how shit other peoples driving is and then state they should be allowed to approach said shit drivers at what ever speed they like... :scratch:

I like going fast sometimes but there's no argument for saying its safe or safer ever...

[awayatc]

You keep telling yourself that. We all need ways to justify what we do for a crust so we can sleep at night.


Sums it all up......

a lot harder to do if you have a cunt of a job

or are a cunt

or both

[swbarnett]

Is momentum not directly proportional to speed?

Momentum = Mass x Velocity, does it not?
Proportional, yes but not equivalent. Momentum has a directional component (velocity contains both speed and direction). The direction of impact is at least as important than the speed.

On the subject of momentum (assuming the same direction):
A 10 tonne truck travelling at 10kph has the same momentum as a 1 tonne car travelling at 100kph. The car would have to travel at 900kph to have the same momentum as the truck at it's open road speed limit (90kph). I would have to ride at 2500kph to match that momentum.

If you're really trying to lower the damage should an impact occur then why is the truck legally allowed to travel with 9 times the momentum of the car (at their respective open road limits)? Or, 25 times the momentum of me and my bike?

It is pretty clear to me that speed is a pretty poor predictor of crash damage over a population.

[swbarnett]

Either or really, but he fails to mention its the momentum or speed of BOTH vehicles that matters as the sum total determines how sticky the final result is.
Yes, that was left out. It's not relevant really in the general discussion on speed as it's bloody obvious to anyone with half a brain cell that the combined impact velocity is important in a multi-vehicle crash. Note "velocity" not speed.


He's trying to be fancy and some how saw that a lightweight sportsbike is justified in speeding cause he thinks it stops and turns better than a car in same situation.
Not at all. Just trying to show that a "lightweight sportsbike" will cause far less damage to anything it hits than, say, a truck at the same impact velocity.


But the whole significant thing about a crash is that both vehicles never come to a stop before hand, therefore its not about momentum/speed whatever, but how much space and time you have to attempt an alternative trajectory.
Agreed. The approach velocity of both vehicles is definitely important. Slowing down the general populace is counter-productive to this, however. An alert driver at a higher speed is far safer than a distracted driver at a lower speed. This is one reason why higher speed limits reduce the number of crashes.


There's plenty of people testifying on here how shit other peoples driving is and then state they should be allowed to approach said shit drivers at what ever speed they like... :scratch:
I'm not one of them. I advocate travelling at whatever speed an individual driver/rider feels capable of handling under the circumstances present at the time. I would never advocate 200kph lane-splitting past stationary traffic for example.


I like going fast sometimes but there's no argument for saying its safe or safer ever...
This is the fundamental disagreement. Early on in my riding career I had a near miss that would definitely have been a collision if I'd been travelling slightly slower. I braked for a red light and slid on oil. My two choices were to go down and slide through the intersection or open the throttle and go through upright. Because I chose the latter and had enough speed on I managed to get through before the car that had the right of way.

[rastuscat]

Not at all. Just trying to show that a "lightweight sportsbike" will cause far less damage to anything it hits than, say, a truck at the same .

Application of different speeds for different weights of vehicle. Hmmm. Not sure how that would work.

[gjm]

Calculation of damage sustained/incurred will also require (aside from speed, mass, direction) the relevant area of contact. As such, a motorbike will apply more pressure at 50km/h than a car (probably) would.

Kinda getting off the topic, though. :-)

[rastuscat]

Kinda getting off the topic, though. :-)

Not a problem. This is KB.

[swbarnett]

Calculation of damage sustained/incurred will also require (aside from speed, mass, direction) the relevant area of contact. As such, a motorbike will apply more pressure at 50km/h than a car (probably) would.
Interesting point. You are indeed correct that it's the pressure that's important, not the actual momentum.

If the bike in that photo was replaced my a car then it wouldn't have traveled as far into the other vehicle. Do you know what the impact speed was? I know of a bike that did exactly that at around 50kph and hardly dented the car*.


Kinda getting off the topic, though. :-)
As with any conversation, you eventually end up wondering how you got where you are.


*I have it on good authority as my wife was the one that did it.

[swbarnett]

Application of different speeds for different weights of vehicle. Hmmm. Not sure how that would work.
Quite easy actually. Speed cameras are doing the speed measuring work for you now. All that is needed is to add pressure plates to the road beside them. Also, it's not that difficult to electronically determine the frontal area from a photo if you want to add in that to the mix.

Not that I'm advocating any form of speed enforcement, mind you. I am firmly in the camp of leave well enough alone until shit happens and then throw the book at the culprit.

[R650R]

I'm not one of them. I advocate travelling at whatever speed an individual driver/rider feels capable of handling under the circumstances present at the time. I would never advocate 200kph lane-splitting past stationary traffic for example.



And here we are back at square one again and the reason we have road rules.
They tried the no rules thing with that K2 junk, suddenly you had people who might not otherwise try drugs doing stupid stuff and the cops workload exploded dealing with all the nutters.
Something tells me no speed limits would have a similar result as at this time we still have too many bad drivers to start with.
There are just any many people below average in the skills dept on any bell curve, do you really want them speeding???

And as for this whole malarkey of momentum it amuses me the argument about the weight of the vehicle.
I had a head on collision with a double cab ute in a 70 zone. He was DUI doing about 120k and I was accelerating out of a town at 65ish weighing in at 44ton (thank god I was legal that night...)
Now I damn near went through the windscreen/roof of the truck on impact (wasn't wearing seatbelt) but lucky it had a fairly large steering wheel. And it wasn't even full head on, he was lucky enough to slide down the side of chassis rail taking off my steer axle and diesel tank before bouncing back the way he'd come about 10m after leaving his gearbox embedded in road. (he lived btw).
You don't want to be hitting anything else solid no matter what vehicle your in, any impact is bad news.
As Rastus says its the only part of the equation they/we can really influence for the better...
Now I know you harped on about only one vehicle with regard to speed, but that's in some utopia where there are no other road users to upset your physics lesson...

[swbarnett]

And here we are back at square one again and the reason we have road rules.
They tried the no rules thing with that K2 junk, suddenly you had people who might not otherwise try drugs doing stupid stuff and the cops workload exploded dealing with all the nutters.
Something tells me no speed limits would have a similar result as at this time we still have too many bad drivers to start with.
The truth is quite the opposite. As has been shown in a number of countries where speed limits were raised or removed completely.


There are just any many people below average in the skills dept on any bell curve, do you really want them speeding???
Yes. Rather that than have everybody (good and bad drivers) going so slow that they become terminally distracted.


And as for this whole malarkey of momentum it amuses me the argument about the weight of the vehicle.
I had a head on collision with a double cab ute in a 70 zone. He was DUI doing about 120k and I was accelerating out of a town at 65ish weighing in at 44ton (thank god I was legal that night...)
Now I damn near went through the windscreen/roof of the truck on impact (wasn't wearing seatbelt) but lucky it had a fairly large steering wheel. And it wasn't even full head on, he was lucky enough to slide down the side of chassis rail taking off my steer axle and diesel tank before bouncing back the way he'd come about 10m after leaving his gearbox embedded in road. (he lived btw).
In spite of this the argument about momentum still stands. Given the same collision and the option of scrubbing 5kph from only one vehicle I know which would do the most good. And it's not the ute.


You don't want to be hitting anything else solid no matter what vehicle your in, any impact is bad news.
No argument there.


As Rastus says its the only part of the equation they/we can really influence for the better...
Ah, but can we? If lowering the average speed results in more collisions we haven't necessarily reduced the amount of overall carnage.


Now I know you harped on about only one vehicle with regard to speed, but that's in some utopia where there are no other road users to upset your physics lesson...
What you can't seem to grasp is that considering only one side of the equation is perfectly valid. Whether or not there is another vehicle. What I said just applies to both sides. Often in physics one side of the collision is assumed to be stationary and the other side is considered in this context. For example, the equations for a head-on collision between two cars each travelling at 100kph are the same as for one stationary and the other doing 200kph.

[Ocean1]

Something tells me no speed limits would have a similar result as at this time we still have too many bad drivers to start with..

Whatever that something is I'd take it out and shoot it, because it's not only wrong but its opinion betrays it's political roots and it's complete lack of technical awareness.

Apply this: https://doclib.uhasselt.be/dspace/bitstream/1942/4002/1/behavioraladaptation.pdf

...to traffic regulation and you get this: http://www.godutch.com/newspaper/index.php?id=1557

Which proves to have worked rather well.

[rastuscat]

Quite easy actually. Speed cameras are doing the speed measuring work for you now. All that is needed is to add pressure plates to the road beside them. Also, it's not that difficult to electronically determine the frontal area from a photo if you want to add in that to the mix.

Not that I'm advocating any form of speed enforcement, mind you. I am firmly in the camp of leave well enough alone until shit happens and then throw the book at the culprit.

We did that back in 1973. 840ish people died on the roads that year, and it was a catalyst for action.

[rastuscat]

Whatever that something is I'd take it out and shoot it, because it's not only wrong but its opinion betrays it's political roots and it's complete lack of technical awareness.

Apply this: https://doclib.uhasselt.be/dspace/bitstream/1942/4002/1/behavioraladaptation.pdf

...to traffic regulation and you get this: http://www.godutch.com/newspaper/index.php?id=1557

Which proves to have worked rather well.

I'm with ya on a lot of that stuff. I'll be reading the whole PDF tomorrow, but had a quick glance at the seatbelts bit.

It appears to say that if we make the roading environment really dangerous, and make our cars really dangerous too, people will quickly adapt and drive like they're in a dangerous vehicle in a dangerous environment.

Hard to argue, but do you really think we're going to do that?

I have already campaigned to remove all the stop signs in my town, but the engineers are very nervous about it. I personally think the compulsory stop rule is a misguided attempt to increase safety. Just my personal view.

Good that we can discuss the ideas though.

[scumdog]

Application of different speeds for different weights of vehicle. Hmmm. Not sure how that would work.

Disasterously??:pinch:

[scumdog]

yea!
but i give not a fuck when cunts end themselves.

So nobody is ever going to crash into YOU then?

Man, you're one lucky mutha...

[Ocean1]

It appears to say that if we make the roading environment really dangerous, and make our cars really dangerous too, people will quickly adapt and drive like they're in a dangerous vehicle in a dangerous environment.

Hard to argue, but do you really think we're going to do that?

Risk homeostasis. The safer people feel the less attention they pay to immediate risk. Demonstrably correct in describing human driving behaviour. The root cause of most accidents is the huge diversity of personal perceived risk on the roads, if everyone was similarly risk-adverse you'd have a deal less accidents. Isn't this stuff introduced at traffic policing 101 level? I'm not trying to be a smartarse but it's pretty basic and extremely relevant.

Worth noting that that's why traffic calming devices work. And that the correct term is probably perceived risk, (although personally I find being so "managed" contrarily infuriating).

And no, I think you'll continue to succumb to the politics of blame.


I have already campaigned to remove all the stop signs in my town, but the engineers are very nervous about it. I personally think the compulsory stop rule is a misguided attempt to increase safety. Just my personal view.

I think you're right. Anything that gives the punter the message that someone else is responsible is bad juju. Also, enforcement policy is patently a response to the heavily political "DO SOMETHING", (about the "carnage"). I can easily see how your engineers might be nervous of removing a previously required "safety feature", even if it actually produced the exact opposite of the required effect.

You might have noticed the extraordinarily high skill level apparent here, most noticeable in the numerous and protracted criticisms of your average Kiwi driver/rider. You might have noticed similar abuses of the average Kiwi driver amongst your colleagues, it's a perfectly normal part of human nature to blame everyone else collectively for any negative outcomes whatsoever, in spite of the obvious fact that most people behave exactly the same way.

That leads to a whole range of silly rules and restrictive policy which has mostly the opposite of the desired effect. The sooner you get science involved in defining driver behaviour and how best to shape an environment that allows for it with minimum damage instead of simply reacting to yet more political pressure driven by supposed public outrage at the personal costs then the sooner you'll see some actual results.

And not until.

[caseye]

Risk homeostasis. The safer people feel the less attention they pay to immediate risk. Demonstrably correct in describing human driving behaviour. The root cause of most accidents is the huge diversity of personal perceived risk on the roads, if everyone was similarly risk-adverse you'd have a deal less accidents. Isn't this stuff introduced at traffic policing 101 level? I'm not trying to be a smartarse but it's pretty basic and extremely relevant.

Worth noting that that's why traffic calming devices work. And that the correct term is probably perceived risk, (although personally I find being so "managed" contrarily infuriating).

And no, I think you'll continue to succumb to the politics of blame.



I think you're right. Anything that gives the punter the message that someone else is responsible is bad juju. Also, enforcement policy is patently a response to the heavily political "DO SOMETHING", (about the "carnage"). I can easily see how your engineers might be nervous of removing a previously required "safety feature", even if it actually produced the exact opposite of the required effect.

You might have noticed the extraordinarily high skill level apparent here, most noticeable in the numerous and protracted criticisms of your average Kiwi driver/rider. You might have noticed similar abuses of the average Kiwi driver amongst your colleagues, it's a perfectly normal part of human nature to blame everyone else collectively for any negative outcomes whatsoever, in spite of the obvious fact that most people behave exactly the same way.

That leads to a whole range of silly rules and restrictive policy which has mostly the opposite of the desired effect. The sooner you get science involved in defining driver behaviour and how best to shape an environment that allows for it with minimum damage instead of simply reacting to yet more political pressure driven by supposed public outrage at the personal costs then the sooner you'll see some actual results.

And not until.


Wot he said!

[rastuscat]

Risk homeostasis. The safer people feel the less attention they pay to immediate risk. Demonstrably correct in describing human driving behaviour. The root cause of most accidents is the huge diversity of personal perceived risk on the roads, if everyone was similarly risk-adverse you'd have a deal less accidents. Isn't this stuff introduced at traffic policing 101 level? I'm not trying to be a smartarse but it's pretty basic and extremely relevant.

Worth noting that that's why traffic calming devices work. And that the correct term is probably perceived risk, (although personally I find being so "managed" contrarily infuriating).

And no, I think you'll continue to succumb to the politics of blame.



I think you're right. Anything that gives the punter the message that someone else is responsible is bad juju. Also, enforcement policy is patently a response to the heavily political "DO SOMETHING", (about the "carnage"). I can easily see how your engineers might be nervous of removing a previously required "safety feature", even if it actually produced the exact opposite of the required effect.

You might have noticed the extraordinarily high skill level apparent here, most noticeable in the numerous and protracted criticisms of your average Kiwi driver/rider. You might have noticed similar abuses of the average Kiwi driver amongst your colleagues, it's a perfectly normal part of human nature to blame everyone else collectively for any negative outcomes whatsoever, in spite of the obvious fact that most people behave exactly the same way.

That leads to a whole range of silly rules and restrictive policy which has mostly the opposite of the desired effect. The sooner you get science involved in defining driver behaviour and how best to shape an environment that allows for it with minimum damage instead of simply reacting to yet more political pressure driven by supposed public outrage at the personal costs then the sooner you'll see some actual results.

And not until.

Yup, agree with most of that too.

However, one example of a divergent opinion.

Would the Auckland Harbour Bridge be safer without the movable barrier preventing head on crashes? A bloke called Hei Hei killed some folk in 1989 be crossing the centreline and hitting an oncoming car. No barrier back then. The only thing separating the opposing traffic was a white painted line between lanes. Biggest issue is that it went from 5 lanes south in the morning to 5 lanes north in the afternoon, indicated by overhead gantry lamps.

People died more often, despite it being more dangerous. What happened to risk compensation there?

[awayatc]

People died more often

People died more often...?

Dying may for some not be soon enough,

but once is always often enough....................

[Ocean1]

Yup, agree with most of that too.

However, one example of a divergent opinion.

Would the Auckland Harbour Bridge be safer without the movable barrier preventing head on crashes? A bloke called Hei Hei killed some folk in 1989 be crossing the centreline and hitting an oncoming car. No barrier back then. The only thing separating the opposing traffic was a white painted line between lanes. Biggest issue is that it went from 5 lanes south in the morning to 5 lanes north in the afternoon, indicated by overhead gantry lamps.

People died more often, despite it being more dangerous. What happened to risk compensation there?

Do you suppose a quantifiable, constant human attribute simply disappeared in that particular case? If you reviewed footage from the cameras up there with the lights on that bridge I wonder if you'd find drivers paid a deal more attention to their driving line when the barrier wasn't there.

Isn't it more likely that that's a good example of changing the environment to minimise the consequences of normal behaviour? And let's face it people died more often then not because they obeyed road rules any more than the current crop, it was mostly about advanced vehicle design which started rolling out around that time, driven by litigation of manufacturer in the US and the good old EU standards machine.

Barriers are great, but we can't afford to put them everywhere, (and let's not get into the likely consequences of introducing wire rope barriers to the environment for bikers), but surely to god we can afford to lose some signs, particularly the ones on the outside of corners, right where the results of any loss of control is going to meet those consequences.

In fact let's get rid of all of them, the evidence is that would produce fewer accidents, and there's a metric shitload of them, on a 10 minute trip from Pauatahanui to Upper Hutt I once gave up counting at 180 odd, that's around one every 3 seconds, requiring far more attention than any road user should be spending on not driving. Tell your engineers to chop the lot down.

[Digitdion]

I can't rule out that some Mufti might have issued a fatwa against you, but we are trying to get people to slow down, so that when they hit you, they don't hit you so hard. Wouldn't you rather they hit you at a lower speed?

No I would rather not be hit! Thank you very much.

If the Govt was serious about this logic they could very easily just electronically govern every vehicle so it can not speed!

No matter what accidents will always happen. Shit happens. We all realist this in life. It's taking the piss to be so bloody anal about it. Anal as in being so tough on speeding.
There should be a 10 % leighway giving.
Hay, but what do I know?
So may think there should be more lee way?

[swarfie]

surely to god we can afford to lose some signs, particularly the ones on the outside of corners, right where the results of any loss of control is going to meet those consequences.

In fact let's get rid of all of them, the evidence is that would produce fewer accidents, and there's a metric shitload of them, on a 10 minute trip from Pauatahanui to Upper Hutt I once gave up counting at 180 odd, that's around one every 3 seconds, requiring far more attention than any road user should be spending on not driving. Tell your engineers to chop the lot down.

You think NZ is bad. I've done a bit of riding in Oz and they're way worse than Kiwiland. In Queensland in particular I would hazard there'd been a few back handers dished out to politicians by some signwriters to up the anti on road signs. Every 'slight' rise in the road over there commands a "Crest" sign. That one makes me laugh as it's predominantly a flat country and you can usually see over their "crests" anyway. I have to agree though, there shouldn't be so many signs and what about all those reflective arrows on just about every bloody corner on our country roads...they nearly blind you as you approach them! Chainsaw the lot I say...it's :bs:

[buggerit]

Instead of emotive waste of money speed kills ads, lets have some actual useful incar seat of the pants footage of the correct way to negotiate a roundabout or the correct way to approach a corner etc, it is more likely to improve the general driving standard and L platers
would have been exposed to some useful info long before they get behind the wheel(we all know what sponges kids are).

[Tazz]

they nearly blind you as you approach them! Chainsaw the lot I say...it's :bs:

Agree some of them are over the top, but man I love those things at night in thick fog!

[Swoop]

Risk homeostasis.
That really sounds like an episode of Red Dwarf.

The safer people feel the less attention they pay to immediate risk.
This is a quantifiable reason to ban anything resembling Hi-Viz.

[R650R]

People died more often, despite it being more dangerous. What happened to risk compensation there?

While these fancy ideas might work in a well educated country with intelligent people, we have to suck it up and admit where we are at in NZ.
Really the majority here are centreline hugging rednecks who feel its their right to be as stupid/dangerous as desired.
The biggest thing the govt can do really is nothing.
As the biggest lifesaver now is congestion and that will get worse as our population continues to expand and infrastructure expansion falls behind.
In ten years time our roads will be so clogged that exceeding 100k will just be a dream of days gone by.

[rastuscat]

While these fancy ideas might work in a well educated country with intelligent people, we have to suck it up and admit where we are at in NZ.
Really the majority here are centreline hugging rednecks who feel its their right to be as stupid/dangerous as desired.
The biggest thing the govt can do really is nothing.
As the biggest lifesaver now is congestion and that will get worse as our population continues to expand and infrastructure expansion falls behind.
In ten years time our roads will be so clogged that exceeding 100k will just be a dream of days gone by.

The South Island is motorcycling heaven. Bugger all population is the key. I can't even see that changing much in 10 years.

[Ocean1]

You might have noticed the extraordinarily high skill level apparent here, most noticeable in the numerous and protracted criticisms of your average Kiwi driver/rider.


While these fancy ideas might work in a well educated country with intelligent people, we have to suck it up and admit where we are at in NZ.
Really the majority here are centreline hugging rednecks who feel its their right to be as stupid/dangerous as desired.

Difficult to describe the effect any better really.

It's bullshit, of course. But more to the point it's irrelevant, what is relevant is the single fact that fewer rules produce fewer accidents.

[Ocean1]

You think NZ is bad. I've done a bit of riding in Oz and they're way worse than Kiwiland. In Queensland in particular I would hazard there'd been a few back handers dished out to politicians by some signwriters to up the anti on road signs. Every 'slight' rise in the road over there commands a "Crest" sign. That one makes me laugh as it's predominantly a flat country and you can usually see over their "crests" anyway. I have to agree though, there shouldn't be so many signs and what about all those reflective arrows on just about every bloody corner on our country roads...they nearly blind you as you approach them! Chainsaw the lot I say...it's :bs:

Aye. I ride there occasionally too. In some ways the fact that the signage is slightly different just highlights the absurdity, at home you tend to ignore it a lot more I guess.

And apparently the blinding arrows thing is caused by old age. Slowing of the eye muscles reaction time etc. All the more reason to take all you old bastards licences away. <_<

[Ocean1]

The South Island is motorcycling heaven. Bugger all population is the key. I can't even see that changing much in 10 years.

I'll be giving it a good nudge come late November mate. Any particular area I should refrain from populating?

[R650R]

The South Island is motorcycling heaven. Bugger all population is the key. I can't even see that changing much in 10 years.

Now there's some homework for you.
North island vs South Island road safety, numbers adjusted for crashes per km travelled, tweak the south numbers for less junction risk exposure.
Should be left with numbers for congested road network vs uncongested.
Results would be interesting, SI still seems to make six o clock news with road tragedy often enough...

[FJRider]

Results would be interesting, SI still seems to make six o clock news with road tragedy often enough...

1. Deserted roads make people feel safer traveling at higher speeds .... SO ... they travel faster.

2. The south island has more "Fuck it up and you're dead" roads ... no help needed from others.

Combine those two points (alone) ... people die.

One stupid mistake is all it takes.

Too many people die ... for stupid reasons .... but they're still just as DEAD.




The real tragedy is ... MORE will die .. !!! for the same reasons.





It can't happen to ME ... or YOU.



Right .. ???

[Berries]

Results would be interesting, SI still seems to make six o clock news with road tragedy often enough...
To be fair we* don't have the paedophiles, P houses and politicians that they have in the north island, so our news is not as exciting.





*Obviously I don't include Christchurch in this statement.

[R650R]

To be fair we* don't have the paedophiles, P houses and politicians that they have in the north island, so our news is not as exciting.





*Obviously I don't include Christchurch in this statement.

Not that I'm not guilty of generalising from time to time, in the interests of accuracy ahem....

A quick look at the police stats PDFs and it seems the rate of offences per 10000 population is pretty much on par with the north....
And just off the top of the head we have:
Aramoana massacre, Bain family killings, Ben n Olivia hope, beast of Blenheim, chch crèche (pre quake)...

[Kickaha]

It can't happen to ME ... or YOU.

Right .. ???

Dead right, because I'm a fucking awesome rider/driver capable of travelling at any speed and any conditions in total safety :yes:

[FJRider]

Dead right, because I'm a fucking awesome rider/driver capable of travelling at any speed and any conditions in total safety :yes:

My Hero .... how do you get to be so fucking awesome .. ??? :confused:

[rastuscat]

I'm pretty much over arguing this one. I guess I'm happy to say yeah, it doesn't matter what position I take, someone will find research that disagrees. C'est la vie. If I said the sky was higher than my roof top today, I bet there'd be someone who could produce research to the contrary.

But hey, we live where we live, we've got what we've got. I'd rather spend my time enjoying my family and my social time than trying to solve things that won't change.

Donuts.

[rastuscat]

Dead right, because I'm a fucking awesome rider/driver capable of travelling at any speed and any conditions in total safety :yes:

Dear Lord, there's two of us........

[scumdog]

Dead right, because I'm a fucking awesome rider/driver capable of travelling at any speed and any conditions in total safety :yes:

Ya sound like the average KB biker....:shifty:

[caseye]

Ya sound like the average KB biker....:shifty:

Average,! average? I'd take Um bridge, but someone would miss it!

[Berries]

Aramoana massacre, Bain family killings, Ben n Olivia hope, beast of Blenheim, chch crèche (pre quake)...
Yep, bloody maoris.

[Kickaha]

Ya sound like the average KB biker....:shifty:

Average? fuck off, I'm way above that

[Digitdion]

Instead of emotive waste of money speed kills ads, lets have some actual useful incar seat of the pants footage of the correct way to negotiate a roundabout or the correct way to approach a corner etc, it is more likely to improve the general driving standard and L platers
would have been exposed to some useful info long before they get behind the wheel(we all know what sponges kids are).

I could not agree more.
Positive Driver education is the way forward. A way to instill positive driving technique in a generation of drivers.
Way better than ticketing every Tom, Dick and Harry to try and prove a point.

[unstuck]

the correct way to negotiate a roundabout or the correct way to approach a corner etc.

That would be fine if people gave a fuck, but most dont. Now show people how to be in front of the car in front of you, at any cost, and you would have a winner.:yes:

[unstuck]

I could not agree more.
Positive Driver education is the way forward. A way to instill positive driving technique in a generation of drivers.
Way better than ticketing every Tom, Dick and Harry to try and prove a point.

Not just driver education, it goes deeper than that. ATTITUDE education is the key, right from an early start. People with good general attitudes to life, generally are better motorists. IMO.

[R650R]

People with good general attitudes to life, generally are better motorists. IMO.

Yes right attitude is importmant but disagree with last part of statement. I know plenty of people who have a great attitude towards others but are shocking drivers with poor road awareness.
I did pull a young fella out of truck seat in Auckland that I was supposed to train up though cause of his crap attitude. He kept on rolling back at least 1-1.5m at every junction, tried to progressively educate and explain the hazard and the reply was it doesn't Fkn matter. Park brake on, it matters now sonny, your not in the driver seat anymore.
Didn't see him again, prob became a statistic somewhere else...

[Hawk]

I'm pretty much over arguing this one. I guess I'm happy to say yeah, it doesn't matter what position I take, someone will find research that disagrees. C'est la vie. If I said the sky was higher than my roof top today, I bet there'd be someone who could produce research to the contrary.

But hey, we live where we live, we've got what we've got. I'd rather spend my time enjoying my family and my social time than trying to solve things that won't change.

Donuts.

Research of the topics discussed in this forum revels that 90 % of want anyone says here disagreed with. Just wait some one will disagree with this fact too.

[awayatc]

Research of the topics discussed in this forum revels that 90 % of want anyone says here disagreed with. Just wait some one will disagree with this fact too.

You might want to re-read your own post......
something must have gone wrong in translation......

[swarfie]

And apparently the blinding arrows thing is caused by old age. Slowing of the eye muscles reaction time etc. All the more reason to take all you old bastards licences away. <_<

Hey I'm not THAT friggin old :motu:....I just feel like it sometimes :scratch::crybaby::weep:

[pritch]

Not all crashes .. I've managed pretty well on my own a few times ...
I think it's possible that you may have missed the intended irony? Maybe we need a dedicated sarcasm smilie?

[swbarnett]

We did that back in 1973. 840ish people died on the roads that year, and it was a catalyst for action.
The trouble is it wasn't given time to settle down. Yes, you'll initially get more deaths and injuries but, in the long term, it'll settle down and you'll have fewer than you would've otherwise.

[swbarnett]

While these fancy ideas might work in a well educated country with intelligent people, we have to suck it up and admit where we are at in NZ.
You need to get out more. People in NZ are no different to anywhere else in the western world. The problem is that the roads have been so dumbed down as to engender a serious drop in the IQ of the average driver.

[swbarnett]

And apparently the blinding arrows thing is caused by old age. Slowing of the eye muscles reaction time etc. All the more reason to take all you old bastards licences away. <_<
I've had the same problem with them ever since the reflective index of the signs was seriously increased in the name of "safety" (around about the same time drivers stopped using the high beam properly).

And my eye reaction time is fine. If I'm blinded by an oncoming car my eyes are back to normal almost immediately after they've passed.

[swbarnett]

I'd rather spend my time enjoying my family and my social time than trying to solve things that won't change.
Which, of course, sums up why they don't change.

[willytheekid]

....The problem is that the roads have been so dumbed down as to engender a serious drop in the IQ of the average driver.

THIS!!! +1

Studys have CLEARLY proven that an engaged driver is a safe driver!....FACT!!
...yet look at our roads!...just take a drive from ChCh to ashburton!, its so damn straight and UN! engaging that people regulary just nod off and Careen off the bloody road!:facepalm:

The road engineers in NZ really do need to be held accountable for the absolute SHIT jobs that they do, fuckers can't even lay new roads (straight boring ones!) without adding so much turps to there mix (for more PROFIT!) that the "road" just washes away within a year!...and potholes**!!...for fucking get it!, my 4yr old kid could fill them in better with his plastic shovel set!.


** no shit, we had a pot hole "repaired" outside our house just over a month ago...repair lasted 3 weeks!(TOPS!!), luckily Charlottes little brother works for a private asphalting company, he filled it in again at my request when picking his kid up one night...and even he said, "holy fuck...there mix has virtualy no bonder?....WOW!...and I thought we where being rip off cunts lol"

....sums it up aye:angry:


So how bout some investigation into the quality of NZ's road designers, the shit there curning out, and the companys doing BLANTANTLY sub standard repair work on public roads- (And charging your local council a FORTUNE for "high standard" repairs...your rates folks!)

[buggerit]

THIS!!! +1

Studys have CLEARLY proven that an engaged driver is a safe driver!....FACT!!
...yet look at our roads!...just take a drive from ChCh to ashburton!, its so damn straight and UN! engaging that people regulary just nod off and Careen off the bloody road!:facepalm:

The road engineers in NZ really do need to be held accountable for the absolute SHIT jobs that they do, fuckers can't even lay new roads (straight boring ones!) without adding so much turps to there mix (for more PROFIT!) that the "road" just washes away within a year!...and potholes**!!...for fucking get it!, my 4yr old kid could fill them in better with his plastic shovel set!.


** no shit, we had a pot hole "repaired" outside our house just over a month ago...repair lasted 3 weeks!(TOPS!!), luckily Charlottes little brother works for a private asphalting company, he filled it in again at my request when picking his kid up one night...and even he said, "holy fuck...there mix has virtualy no bonder?....WOW!...and I thought we where being rip off cunts lol"

....sums it up aye:angry:


So how bout some investigation into the quality of NZ's road designers, the shit there curning out, and the companys doing BLANTANTLY sub standard repair work on public roads- (And charging your local council a FORTUNE for "high standard" repairs...your rates folks!)

I blame the cunts that sign hese jobs off for payment.

[awayatc]

I blame the cunts that sign hese jobs off for payment.

Where to start ?
So many cunts, one could start up a mega whore house.......

[R650R]

You need to get out more. People in NZ are no different to anywhere else in the western world. The problem is that the roads have been so dumbed down as to engender a serious drop in the IQ of the average driver.

Your wrong.

I did a 2 and a half year back to back test of NZ-UK-NZ driving. The difference is huge.
Sadly most NZ drivers have the attention span of a wombat, no desire to indicate, an aggressive road rage streak that makes the average wife beater look like a relationship counsellor.
Couple that with our national alcohol problem and the competitive/possessive element from our sports obsession making for an inability to share the road even to avoid a collision.

[swbarnett]

Your wrong.

I did a 2 and a half year back to back test of NZ-UK-NZ driving. The difference is huge.
Sadly most NZ drivers have the attention span of a wombat, no desire to indicate, an aggressive road rage streak that makes the average wife beater look like a relationship counsellor.
Couple that with our national alcohol problem and the competitive/possessive element from our sports obsession making for an inability to share the road even to avoid a collision.
People are people the world over. Any apparent difference is due to cultural conditions. Change these and we're all the same.

While I have not much experience of the UK. What I did see in London led me to believe that the only reason the drivers are any better is that they're resigned to going nowhere fast.

I spent 2 years living in Switzerland and, yes, the driving is poles apart from that in NZ currently. The ONLY differences between them and us is that their road rules make sense* and the public transport is second to none. Given the same here I firmly believe we would be the same. Treat people as you want them to be, not necessarily as they are.


*Their equivalent of the road code even stated that some rules don't always make sense (traffic jams on tight mountain roads for example). In such cases it said for the drivers to work it out among themselves.

[thepom]

No the problem here in NZ is not enough driver education, when you have such a simple test to drive or ride a vehicle with minimum education its no wonder the standard of driving here is so low....

[swbarnett]

No the problem here in NZ is not enough driver education, when you have such a simple test to drive or ride a vehicle with minimum education its no wonder the standard of driving here is so low....
Education only goes so far. Yes, it's important but what's more important is to be constantly refreshing the skills every driver needs. You can't do that on "dumb", boring roads.

[willytheekid]

...making for an inability to share the road even to avoid a collision.

So true!, whitnesses a slow motion crash at the supermarket last week that sums that up perfectly!...and I truely mean slow motion!

Guy just pulled out infront of another car (turned right to go the same direction as the oncoming car)...neither wanted to stop or give way to the other, or follow basic giveway rules...and they just ever so slowly "mushed" into each other...but they didnt stop there:no:...they keep going for another 10-15mtrs at -5kph crushing and pushing into each others car while tearing bumpers & body work off :facepalm:

I know your not spose to leave the scene of an accident...but with a back pack full of grocerys, the fuck I was hanging around the scene of blatant stupidty! :rolleyes:

...that all transpired INSIDE a supermarket carpark lot...Imagine the damage those two morons do on the road!


Ride Safe KBers.:love:

[pritch]

Lack of proper driver education is a major contributor to our crap driving. I was in court one day (discharged) and had to sit through a whole parade of people appearing for not having, nor ever held, a driving licence. So never mind how easy it is to get a licence, there's a significant proportion of the population have no intention of ever getting one.

One reason for there being so many appearing in court may be that, as a type, they are visually easy to identify, that and the fact that they would mostly be driving heap-of-shit cars means even the most unenthusiastic cop could boost their figures without much effort. Probably get some bonus points for no WoF or rego as well.

[Berries]

One reason for there being so many appearing in court may be that, as a type, they are visually easy to identify
Ah man. Why the downer on gingers?

[R650R]

So true!, whitnesses a slow motion crash at the supermarket last week that sums that up perfectly!...and I truely mean slow motion!

Guy just pulled out infront of another car (turned right to go the same direction as the oncoming car)...neither wanted to stop or give way to the other, or follow basic giveway rules...and they just ever so slowly "mushed" into each other...but they didnt stop there:no:...they keep going for another 10-15mtrs at -5kph crushing and pushing into each others car while tearing bumpers & body work off :facepalm:

I know your not spose to leave the scene of an accident...but with a back pack full of grocerys, the fuck I was hanging around the scene of blatant stupidty! :rolleyes:

...that all transpired INSIDE a supermarket carpark lot...Imagine the damage those two morons do on the road!


Ride Safe KBers.:love:

Sounds a bit like this... see vid attached lol
Its not your crash, your allowed to leave. If there's no imminent threat to life I always try and park on the other side of crash. Once you stop to help (which I will do) you'll be surprised how fast helicopters, fire engines and cranes turn up to block roads off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBvysuewIOs

[willytheekid]

Sounds a bit like this... see vid attached lol
Its not your crash, your allowed to leave. If there's no imminent threat to life I always try and park on the other side of crash. Once you stop to help (which I will do) you'll be surprised how fast helicopters, fire engines and cranes turn up to block roads off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBvysuewIOs

:killingme...oh shit that made my morning :laugh:

-Have a great weekend mate :niceone:

[scumdog]

Lack of proper driver education is a major contributor to our crap driving. I was in court one day (discharged) and had to sit through a whole parade of people appearing for not having, nor ever held, a driving licence. So never mind how easy it is to get a licence, there's a significant proportion of the population have no intention of ever getting one.

One reason for there being so many appearing in court may be that, as a type, they are visually easy to identify, that and the fact that they would mostly be driving heap-of-shit cars means even the most unenthusiastic cop could boost their figures without much effort. Probably get some bonus points for no WoF or rego as well.


Yup, one imported bozo here has failed to get his Restricted licence after four attempt, has crashed off the road about three times so far....and just keeps driving while on his Learners. (bur he aint learning)

[unstuck]

Yup, one imported bozo here has failed to get his Restricted licence after four attempt, has crashed off the road about three times so far....and just keeps driving while on his Learners. (bur he aint learning)

Another imported bozo in your town has just been given his marching orders too, and told to fuck off back to the Philippines.:niceone:

Probably the safest option for him really:devil2:

[scumdog]

Another imported bozo in your town has just been given his marching orders too, and told to fuck off back to the Philippines.:niceone:

Probably the safest option for him really:devil2:

Yeah but my bozo was only imported from some other vague unimportant part of NZ, he is a honky born in EnZed.:rolleyes:

[gjm]

Ya sound like the average KB biker....:shifty:


Average? fuck off, I'm way above that

Half of us are.

[swbarnett]

Half of us are.
That's median, not mean.