"Stale" petrol

[400sm]

Another motoring myth.
If you throw a match at it and it burns, it ain't "stale".

[buggerit]

Another motoring myth.
If you throw a match at it and it burns, it ain't "stale".

And if it smells like varnish, start to sweat:shit:

[Laava]

Another motoring myth.
If you throw a match at it and it burns, it ain't "stale".

Wow! You really do know everything! No wonder you are such a hit with the red givers.

[haydes55]

Another motoring myth, it's pointless to change the oil in your bike, it's still slippery when its dirty.

[Laava]

Your tyres are safer when all the treads worn off as it will achieve a better grip.

[400sm]

Case in point:
1977 RM125B. Sitting for 6 years with pre-mix in its tank. Last year it took three kicks to start it.
I guess it was stale.

[400sm]

Wow! You really do know everything! No wonder you are such a hit with the red givers.

Generic KB nana. Big on emotion, nil on fact.

[buggerit]

Case in point:
1977 RM125B. Sitting for 6 years with pre-mix in its tank. Last year it took three kicks to start it.
I guess it was stale.

Premix generally lasts longer before it turns to varish, it also depends a little on the environment it was stored in.

[willytheekid]

Another motoring myth.
If you throw a match at it and it burns, it ain't "stale".

Ahhh..actually

"If petrol is not stored in an air tight container then the process of oxidation occurs. Fuel that has been exposed to air flow will begin to look cloudy and get darker in colour. Sometimes you may even be able to see particles floating in the fuel if it is badly oxidised.

Once the fuel is in this state it is dangerous to add it to an engine as the fuel will form deposits in the fuel system. Fuel stored in a vehicle is not air tight – particularly in motorcycles and therefore these deposits can build up and affect the proper working of the engine".


...not so much of a myth huh


(note...they say if stored properly in air tight containers and at the correct temp and out of sunlight etc etc...5yrs! storage is possible with no oxidation)


...I would like to thank google for once again making me look far smarter than I actual is :D

[Voltaire]

Mate bought an old Ducati recently, had fuel but would not start, took fuel out, it was very dark red, added new fuel and bike started and ran.
Probably ok for lawnmower or RM 125 :killingme

[awayatc]

If the fuel is old, and you think its stale....just add some water....

[unstuck]

Use that shit to boil ya kiff down into oil, then sell it to dumb fucks who dont know good drugs from bad. Win. :shifty:

[Laava]

Case in point:
1977 RM125B. Sitting for 6 years with pre-mix in its tank. Last year it took three kicks to start it.
I guess it was stale.

It most likely was stale. That doesn't mean it will not start. But it would be shitting up your carbs and prob down a smidge on performance. You have a lot learn. Coming on a forum and announcing something as fact is always going to be treated with derision. Get used to it.

[unstuck]

Coming on a forum and announcing something as fact, EVEN IF IT IS, is always going to be treated with derision. Get used to it.


Thats betterer.......Fuckin love KB.:Punk::Punk:

[Tazz]

Another motoring myth.
If you throw a match at it and it burns, it ain't "stale".


http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq40/happyturtle-avs/funny-science-news-experiments-meme.jpg


Ahhh..actually

"If petrol is not stored in an air tight container then the process of oxidation occurs. Fuel that has been exposed to air flow will begin to look cloudy and get darker in colour. Sometimes you may even be able to see particles floating in the fuel if it is badly oxidised.

Once the fuel is in this state it is dangerous to add it to an engine as the fuel will form deposits in the fuel system. Fuel stored in a vehicle is not air tight – particularly in motorcycles and therefore these deposits can build up and affect the proper working of the engine".


...not so much of a myth huh


(note...they say if stored properly in air tight containers and at the correct temp and out of sunlight etc etc...5yrs! storage is possible with no oxidation)


...I would like to thank google for once again making me look far smarter than I actual is :D


http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/517/111/fbd.jpg

[ellipsis]

...but if you rubbed it all over your nuts and sprinkled it liberally on your sphincter, it would still make your skin burn and go red and look terrible, if it were stale or not...


...(about as relevant as I could come up with, if you really just want to waste peoples fucking time...dickhead)...

[The Reibz]

I think this cunt might be sniffing a bit to much petrol...

[400sm]

Ahhh..actually

"If petrol is not stored in an air tight container then the process of oxidation occurs. Fuel that has been exposed to air flow will begin to look cloudy and get darker in colour. Sometimes you may even be able to see particles floating in the fuel if it is badly oxidised.

Once the fuel is in this state it is dangerous to add it to an engine as the fuel will form deposits in the fuel system. Fuel stored in a vehicle is not air tight – particularly in motorcycles and therefore these deposits can build up and affect the proper working of the engine".


...not so much of a myth huh


(note...they say if stored properly in air tight containers and at the correct temp and out of sunlight etc etc...5yrs! storage is possible with no oxidation)



...I would like to thank google for once again making me look far smarter than I actual is :D

Stored in its own fuel tank for six years. Air vent pipe in cap. Please explain.

[400sm]

It most likely was stale. That doesn't mean it will not start. But it would be shitting up your carbs and prob down a smidge on performance. You have a lot learn. Coming on a forum and announcing something as fact is always going to be treated with derision. Get used to it.


It's an old wives tale that ignorants tell each other.

[Flip]

The other thing that happens is the small volatile molecules flash off, evaporate and leaves behind the heavy ends. Its the light ends that are ignighted by the spark not the heavy ones.

If you store the fuel in an air tight container it can last quite a while, about 3 months in the fuel tank in the MG and Landrover the motor wont start. The Harley has a PV vent and lasts a lot longer.

[400sm]

Other fallacies accepted as fact out there:

You can't tow an automatic.
Knobblies are dangerous on the road.

[willytheekid]

Stored in its own fuel tank for six years. Air vent pipe in cap. Please explain.

:blink:OR!

...you could actually read what I posted....stop...read it again!...then try to understand:yawn:...oh WTF am I doing! :laugh:

http://notalwaysright.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/funny-quotes-stupid-people.png

...lets just leave it at that...but great effort all round chap!*:clap:




* Im also a supporter of the special olympics....lil bit more so tho, as they actually TRY!<_<

[Tazz]

Other fallacies accepted as fact out there:

You can't tow an automatic.
Knobblies are dangerous on the road.

I think you might be better off on this forum...

http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=bd33d1449257cc85ae5e89c581c977 c7&

[400sm]

The other thing that happens is the small volatile molecules flash off, evaporate and leaves behind the heavy ends. Its the light ends that are ignighted by the spark not the heavy ones.

If you store the fuel in an air tight container it can last quite a while, about 3 months in the fuel tank in the MG and Landrover the motor wont start. The Harley has a PV vent and lasts a lot longer.

Thanks for the well reasoned reply.
I partially restored an MGBGT a long time ago. Started it up no problems with original fuel though.
Sounds like dodgy petrol tanks maybe ?

[Laava]

I think this cunt might be sniffing a bit to much petrol...

Yep. I hope he doesn't sniff all the fumes off of it, it might go stale.

[Laava]

Other fallacies accepted as fact out there:

You can't tow an automatic.
Knobblies are dangerous on the road.

You,re a bit of a worrier aren't ya?

[Flip]

No, new vehicles have a kind of PV (Pressure/vacumme) valve that restricts free fuel tank breathing. Nobody cared about emmissions in the 60's.

The old fuel spec pre 2000 lasted longer as it had lower aromatics.

[400sm]

Looks like "stale" petrol is indeed a state of mind.

Lots of starting problems are blamed on "stale" fuel. (as in OLD fuel. Not to be confused with Contaminated fuel.)
I have been told on this forum that my RM fuel was stale.
If my stale fuel starts the engine, then as far as I am concerned, it ain't "stale."

[awayatc]

Stalemate then.........

[eelracing]

Looks like "stale" petrol is indeed a state of mind.

Lots of starting problems are blamed on "stale" fuel. (as in OLD fuel. Not to be confused with Contaminated fuel.)
I have been told on this forum that my RM fuel was stale.
If my stale fuel starts the engine, then as far as I am concerned, it ain't "stale."

Then that's testament to how right Suzuki RM's are in that they can run on the smell of an oily rag.
However your welcome to come round and kick me Norton over with "stale" fuel in the tank anytime...I will enjoy the heap you will eventually be lying in:laugh:

[ducatilover]

So, the fuel in my ZX6 has gone stale after two very long periods of no use (it's even ninteyfuckingeight) means that you are a cunt and correlation is not causation.
You dick.

[awa355]

Is this a myth? If I dont ride for 3 months, does that make me a stale rider?

[ellipsis]

...a while back I was taking out an old kitchen and at the back of an old cupboard that had been blanked off I found two crates of Bavarian Bitter quarts...it was stale...thank god...

[jim.cox]

However your welcome to come round and kick me Norton over with "stale" fuel in the tank anytime...I will enjoy the heap you will eventually be lying in:laugh:

And when you're done there, you can come and likewise have a go at starting my Ducati

[R650R]

The GSXR (injected) will always start after sitting for months on whatever is in there.

The DR650 how ever seems to cook off the float bowl if not used for 3-4 days. Big single sucks a bit of juice out of battery so not worth cranking it over repeatedly.
Drain float bowl and little more and that feeds my lawn mower.

Used to have mate that did fish and chip delivery with two bikes, one used 91 other 96. Cant remember which one but the fuel would go stale faster than the other, as in days vs months...

[Mungatoke Mad]

If the fuel is old, and you think its stale....just add some water....With Sugar Yeast & hops ? :beer:

[jim.cox]

Used to have mate that did fish and chip delivery with two bikes, one used 91 other 96. Cant remember which one but the fuel would go stale faster than the other, as in days vs months...

It is the 96 or 98 that goes off (quite a lot) faster - those toluenes and other aromatics evaporate quickly

[F5 Dave]

Fuck my dirt bike is scary on the road and I learnt to ride on an XR with knackered knobblies. I'd claim BS on that claim.

Gas can last well enough but some vehicles better than others. My high compression dirt bike runs like crap when it's cold until it gets totally hot. Then I worked out that if I bought fuel on the way to the ride it didn't happen. Fuel had lost it's light gases through plastic tank. Less detonation in the sand too.

But there's only one person qualified to talk on this subject I'm aware of and he's already spoken. It's not you by the way SM.

[veldthui]

Ahhh..actually

"If petrol is not stored in an air tight container then the process of oxidation occurs. Fuel that has been exposed to air flow will begin to look cloudy and get darker in colour. Sometimes you may even be able to see particles floating in the fuel if it is badly oxidised.

Once the fuel is in this state it is dangerous to add it to an engine as the fuel will form deposits in the fuel system. Fuel stored in a vehicle is not air tight – particularly in motorcycles and therefore these deposits can build up and affect the proper working of the engine".


...not so much of a myth huh


(note...they say if stored properly in air tight containers and at the correct temp and out of sunlight etc etc...5yrs! storage is possible with no oxidation)


...I would like to thank google for once again making me look far smarter than I actual is :D

Gee and I thought fuel filters in the line were supposed to take that sort of stuff out. Wonder why I am paying extra for a filter then?

[Tazz]

Gee and I thought fuel filters in the line were supposed to take that sort of stuff out. Wonder why I am paying extra for a filter then?

Damn straight! I crack some skulls when I glad wrap my sandwich only to come back 5 years later and find there is mold on it. Da faq! Proof that shit doesn't keep anything off your food at all!

[willytheekid]

Gee and I thought fuel filters in the line were supposed to take that sort of stuff out. Wonder why I am paying extra for a filter then?
:eek5:

http://radishreviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/picard-seriously.jpg

...



http://www.quickmeme.com/img/cf/cf2b9b4ef4217730b5f9204e2a6cedab2071e47b7d3e95e8cb 90a7297ef00d8b.jpg


:D

[R650R]

Gee and I thought fuel filters in the line were supposed to take that sort of stuff out. Wonder why I am paying extra for a filter then?

You need to condition it with some water then run some yacht fuel through it for best results...

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/03/01/article-2108346-11DB54CD000005DC-148_634x367.jpg

[Berries]

There's a joke in there about my wife.

[awayatc]

Sitting around for months?

or going stale through lack of use......?

thats a bit harsh.....

[Berries]

I was thinking of the photo of the giant tampon.





EDIT - Lots of sick double entendres deleted. Suffice to say all go go juice is changed regularly.

[awayatc]

Some things one is maybe better of not to know......

[400sm]

Then that's testament to how right Suzuki RM's are in that they can run on the smell of an oily rag.
However your welcome to come round and kick me Norton over with "stale" fuel in the tank anytime...I will enjoy the heap you will eventually be lying in:laugh:

LOL, I would love to.
I've only been playing with bikes for 40 years, so I'm no expert . . . . but could your fueling come down to contamination in any way ?
When one says Norton, l think, rooly Old.
What is the state of the inside of your bike's tank ?

[400sm]

Fuck my dirt bike is scary on the road and I learnt to ride on an XR with knackered knobblies. I'd claim BS on that claim.

Gas can last well enough but some vehicles better than others. My high compression dirt bike runs like crap when it's cold until it gets totally hot. Then I worked out that if I bought fuel on the way to the ride it didn't happen. Fuel had lost it's light gases through plastic tank. Less detonation in the sand too.

But there's only one person qualified to talk on this subject I'm aware of and he's already spoken. It's not you by the way SM.

That's MEAN Bro :-((

[400sm]

The GSXR (injected) will always start after sitting for months on whatever is in there.

The DR650 how ever seems to cook off the float bowl if not used for 3-4 days. Big single sucks a bit of juice out of battery so not worth cranking it over

Yes the old float bowl scenarios.
Fuel evaporation is indeed a problem.
When left over time, the needle valve can also seize shut, or seize open.
Jets somehow can get blocked too.
This is when the "stale fuel experts" come into their own !
As mentioned, with a bit of a bowl clean, that same old "stale" fuel will start their bikes and take them to the nearest fuel stop. :-))

[Grumph]

Injection has been a godsend to fuel companies. Even when pump fuel is contaminated with water - and has lost most of it's aromatics - the pressure at the injector will still vaporise the muck coming down the lines sufficient to ignite as normal. In my experience this has resulted in fuel with what appears to be shorter shelf life.

Carburettors - especially gravity fed like ours mostly are - are at the whim of whatever shit is in the tank. Extremes of temperature don't help either...

[Macros]

Petrol does decay over time causing the octane rating to decrease.

[breakaway]

Carburetors are shithouse 1950s tech that needs to die.

Virtually no cars come with Carbs now (haven't since the 90s really), yet there are new model year bikes coming out that have this antiquated tech. What's the reason?

[ellipsis]

Carburetors are shithouse 1950s tech that needs to die.

Virtually no cars come with Carbs now (haven't since the 90s really), yet there are new model year bikes coming out that have this antiquated tech. What's the reason?


...probably the same reason that some people walk to work and some prefer a lift...or...

[Mike.Gayner]

Carburetors are shithouse 1950s tech that needs to die.

Virtually no cars come with Carbs now (haven't since the 90s really), yet there are new model year bikes coming out that have this antiquated tech. What's the reason?

Carbs are a simple and reliable device. I don't know why you think they're "shithouse" - they perform extremely reliably for their given task.

[R650R]

Carburetors are shithouse 1950s tech that needs to die.

Virtually no cars come with Carbs now (haven't since the 90s really), yet there are new model year bikes coming out that have this antiquated tech. What's the reason?

Engine-bay real-estate and ease of manufacture, size of injectors makes for more compact engine size.

Nothing wrong with good old gravity fed carb, just spent some dollars on a new Flatslide for the DR650 :)

Injection is great until... at higher mileage the injector tip wears/breaks, high pressure fuel pump fails, engine computer fails...
I love the injection setup on my 750 but for lots of stuff like the DR, carbs are fine. Set up properly the fuel economy is just as good as injection.

[Flip]

Petrol does decay over time causing the octane rating to decrease.

Other way around.

Old petrol has a higher octane number.

[pritch]

Years ago when I was reading Yank magazines there were warnings about trying to store petrol. At some times though the quality of American petrol had been rather low.
No idea what it's like now.

[noobi]

Other way around.

Old petrol has a higher octane number.

I think you're right. Octane rating is weird.

Probably something about the important components of the mixture being more volatile, so they disappear faster, so older petrol has a higher octane, relative to when it was fresh.

[Flip]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating

[F5 Dave]

Carburetors are shithouse 1950s tech that needs to die.

Virtually no cars come with Carbs now (haven't since the 90s really), yet there are new model year bikes coming out that have this antiquated tech. What's the reason?
I think you'll find that has more to do with emissions that everything is changing to FI. Obviously FI has decreased in price every year and multiple injectors and throats provide an increase in performance where bikes have had on throat per pot since the japs got involved. As far as being 50s tech - they are of course 'before turn of the century before that' tech.

But also consider that as recently as the last 125GP racing (ended 2011) the highest output per litre class we've seen yet by quite a bit, well they could have used FI. But they chose carbs. So don't be so quick to diss an engineering solution because of fashion. In some applications DOS is a better platform than W8.(think battery life).

[noobi]

The non-wiki article.
http://www.bp.com/content/dam/bp-country/en_au/media/fuel-news/petrol-life-vehicle-tanks.pdf

[F5 Dave]

That's actually a very good article for the lay person. Cmon phil up your game. :innocent: Not that I can see him posting something from BP.

[ducatilover]

Carburetors are shithouse 1950s tech that needs to die.

Virtually no cars come with Carbs now (haven't since the 90s really), yet there are new model year bikes coming out that have this antiquated tech. What's the reason?

:lol: Nothing wrong with carbs. You can get excellent power from a decent carb.
But as mentioned, emissions is the biggest draw back.

[Owl]

Fuck

My bread is stale.:(

[ellipsis]

Fuck

My bread is stale.:(




...just freshen it up with a damp sponge ...or toast it...dont worry about the aromatics, unless you like burned toast...

[Old Steve]

That BP article touched on the basics. Fuel either goes stale, or loses it's light ends - this is two different processes.

Fuel left in a tank and exposed to air will oxidise, this will cause the molecules to join together and form gums and varnishes. But this is a process which happens slowly. Using something like an additised petrol (and the premium fuels are more likely to contain an additive) should clean carburettors, injectors and the back of inlet valves of deposits and give easier starting and smoother running.

Loss of the petrol's light ends is another matter, this can happen quickly. Petrol contains a range of hydrocarbon molecules from butane (C4H10) through and beyond molecules around C10, and including aromatics (fairly volatile). The more volatile molecules contribute to the petrol's starting characteristics, they evaporate easily and ignite. Winter petrol will have higher volatility (measured as Reid Vapour Pressure) than summer petrol, so something bought in winter and put into the tank in summer may give noticeable differences in starting. These more volatile compounds, the light ends, evaporate naturally, so the petrol loses it's ability to evaporate on starting. A petrol which is missing it's light ends is called "topped". Once started and the engine warmed up there is less problem with a topped petrol, the heavier ends evaporate anyway and the engine appears more powerful.

[F5 Dave]

Apparently petrol stations are fitted with means to reduce this happening in tank by means of providing pressure with a tall curved vent, but I've yet to espy one.

[R650R]

Apparently petrol stations are fitted with means to reduce this happening in tank by means of providing pressure with a tall curved vent, but I've yet to espy one.

Think their prob all straight these days with relief valve installed. In the right lighting conditions you can still see the vapours pouring out the top.
Back in my younger days when I was a Petroleum Dispensary Technician aka attendant I think the tanks typically lost 2% by volume due to evaporation, can't remember if it was daily or weekly...

[dha82]

Depends really how important performance is to you

[caspernz]

Apparently petrol stations are fitted with means to reduce this happening in tank by means of providing pressure with a tall curved vent, but I've yet to espy one.

You're kinda overthinking the subject. A tall vent stack combined with the fact that concentrated fuel vapour is still heavier than air means that the only time you get significant amounts of vapour coming out is during a delivery via road tanker. Temperature fluctuations play a very minor part, and let's face it, most servos get at least one delivery a week...so stale fuel at a servo is more or less a non event.

And no I'm not especially qualified, having spent only 15 or so years as a Petroleum Products Transportation Technician, so I'll admit to being almost entirely clueless on the subject :eek5:

[F5 Dave]

And yet I'm still picking Phil as my go to engineer on the subject