Thunderbike - power weight ratio class

[scracha]

http://www.thunderbike.org.uk/rules_overview.php
http://www.thunderbike.org.uk/rules_regs.php

Farkin cool class. Could get a lot of bikes on the grid at club racing and includes most of existing F3, pre89 and post 90's carbies bikes.

[blackdog]

That makes so much sense.

Fuck all chance of MNZ adopting anything like it then.

[scracha]

That makes so much sense.

Fuck all chance of MNZ adopting anything like it then.

That's why I said club racing. Could ditch that stupid racist BEARS class too.

[Skunk]

I was working on that idea after I saw it a year or so back. Break it into f1 and f3 and you're done (for top speed safety's sake). Never got to finish the idea into robust rules.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[Billy]

I was working on that idea after I saw it a year or so back. Break it into f1 and f3 and you're done (for top speed safety's sake). Never got to finish the idea into robust rules.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

Good idea,

Only problem is, It doesn't solve the biggest problem facing roadrace in this country, Junior induction and training, There is only one club in the country addressing the problem and it's of little surprise their riders took out 4 of the 7 championships run during NZSBK 2014, NO North Island club is, Or has for many years done anywhere near enough to attract and train young newcomers, Short of the Hyosung Cup which was a distributor initiative and piggy backed on an AMCC series that was flagging theres been nothing to speak of, Concentrating on the 125GP class will achieve little as it is NOT an entry level class, A class like this will just be a temp fix for the 30-40 something year olds that will only ride when and where they feel like it., Contact Oyster, If your really lucky, He may still be interested enough to give you some advice.

[quickbuck]

I was working on that idea after I saw it a year or so back. Break it into f1 and f3 and you're done (for top speed safety's sake). Never got ti finish the idea into robust rules.


I think it is something we seriously need to look at.
In my opinion it has become apparent we have spread the classes a little too thin in this day of age....
Yes the day of age that kids would rather hoon around the Palmy Norht Square in their oonst oonst cages rather than race their mates on a bike on a track in controlled safe conditions.....
You get more TV time it seems.......

Anyhow, I was thinking of the idea of "Bracket" type racing, where you race in a group that you qualify with based on lap times at the start of the season.
But that has its own issues in itself.... Like why would anybody with a bit of money want to improve their riding, when they can just buy a bike that is faster to make up lap time....
OR, sandbag at the begining of the season?

With Thunder Bike you can do all the mods you like, tinker away, rip stuff off, what ever, but solong as you are not making enough power and are above the weight for said power, you can race.
Should make for some interesting racing if we introduce this concept.

Will need more than just a couple thinking it is an awesome idea though.

[budda]

I think it is something we seriously need to look at.
With Thunder Bike you can do all the mods you like, tinker away, rip stuff off, what ever, but solong as you are not making enough power and are above the weight for said power, you can race.
Should make for some interesting racing if we introduce this concept.

.

Bloody Bewdy - I could race a fullblown Superbike in Buckets if its a HP/Weight formula .......:crazy:

[mr bucketracer]

Bloody Bewdy - I could race a fullblown Superbike in Buckets if its a HP/Weight formula .......:crazy:its a win win for us lol

[scracha]

I was working on that idea after I saw it a year or so back. Break it into f1 and f3 and you're done (for top speed safety's sake). Never got to finish the idea into robust rules.

Now you're talking Skunk.



Only problem is, It doesn't solve the biggest problem facing roadrace in this country, Junior induction and training, There is only one club in the country addressing the problem and it's of little surprise their riders took out 4 of the 7 championships run during NZSBK 2014, NO North Island club is

Agreed...but I dunno the solution to this and as I'm a selfish 30 to 40 something who has no kids I'm probably not the best guy to ask. My gut feeling is we start the juniors too late in life, that it costs too much, that it involves rider's parents spannering and that there's just no training and progression for them in New Zealand. If MNZ and the clubs got their shit in one sock and guaranteed the winner of the junior title a partly funded shot at the Asia Talent cup then I think entries would rise. Perhaps junior title winners at club level get CASH (hell I hate kids but even I couldn't begrudge entry and membership fees going towards this) or fees paid for some sort of training program. It shouldn't be up to separate clubs, generous race teams or individuals to organise and fund this by themselves. I think the one make junior series where you can fly/ride/drive to the track and pick up the random bike may be worth investigating to keep costs down.



I think it is something we seriously need to look at.
In my opinion it has become apparent we have spread the classes a little too thin in this day of age....

Agreed. Class like that a good mix of posties, motards, F3's, shite 90's 4's, not stupidly fast BEARS and more importantly, makes a shitload of bloody good bikes (new and older) currently sat in sheds eligible for racing again. Also allows for "interesting" bikes so keeps the bike builders happy and keeps the crowd happy as "they all don't look the same". Perhaps most importantly, it doesn't exclude many existing race bikes.

Said it 100 times but:

I dunno why we have superbike and supersport in little old NZ. When we are back in the position where people actually have to qualify to squeeze their bike onto a full grid (remember full grids at club racing just 6 years ago) then it would be a possibility but in the meantime it needs a radical rethink such as phasing in 600 superstock and phasing out 600 supersport.
I dunno why the 1000's and 600's run separately at (most) club meetings when there's quite often about 8 bikes going round in circles.
I dunno why we have BEARS. The new ones are fast enough to compete with the Japanese stuff.
I dunno the whole point of F3 to be honest. I never have.
I dunno why we have 125's as a separate class anymore.
I dunno why we have post class...oh....yeah I do but it's now too diluted....



Yep...effectively too many classes.

Ideal Race order -
Fast modern stuff (includes BEARS bikes too fast and new for Thunderbike, split into 600/1000's if too many entries)
Development class (fuck knows....300cc 4 strokes....again minimum weight max bhp would keep costs lower?)
Thunderbike & thunderbike extreme (combine with fast modern stuff if entries low, split if entries high etc)
Thunderbike single and lightweight.
Sidecars I guess

And yet another overseas series using dyno's that for some unfathomable reason I keep getting told is simply unworkable. Good old "Kiwi Can Do" my arse.

[Skunk]

I'll have to find my draft... There are too many classes but everyone wants a class for THEIR bike so they can win.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[quickbuck]

Bloody Bewdy - I could race a fullblown Superbike in Buckets if its a HP/Weight formula .......:crazy:

Um, no.... Because Bucket Rules still have a cc upper limit, and I don't think that will change (too much) anytime soon.
That said, in my day it was 125cc max........ Oh well...

[Kornholio]

Nice list of bikes already racing... http://www.thunderbike.org.uk/bike_list.php

[nodrog]

Nice list of bikes already racing... http://www.thunderbike.org.uk/bike_list.php

you could run your 3 cylinder gixxer 750 in there bro.

[scracha]

I'll have to find my draft... There are too many classes but everyone wants a class for THEIR bike so they can win.


My suggestion has 7 classes spread over 4 races and possibly a 5th for sidechairs. Also good scope for cross entries or merging moderns and thunderbike extreme. Compare to the typical what...12 (?) different classes at last VMCC. The whole point being to reduce the number of classes so I don't really understand your comment.

[Skunk]

There are *currently* too many classes...
I drafted 3 grids, giving 6 classes and added extras depending on need/demand (motards, sidecars, development).


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[oyster]

Good idea,

Only problem is, It doesn't solve the biggest problem facing roadrace in this country, Junior induction and training, There is only one club in the country addressing the problem and it's of little surprise their riders took out 4 of the 7 championships run during NZSBK 2014, NO North Island club is, Or has for many years done anywhere near enough to attract and train young newcomers, Short of the Hyosung Cup which was a distributor initiative and piggy backed on an AMCC series that was flagging theres been nothing to speak of, Concentrating on the 125GP class will achieve little as it is NOT an entry level class, A class like this will just be a temp fix for the 30-40 something year olds that will only ride when and where they feel like it., Contact Oyster, If your really lucky, He may still be interested enough to give you some advice.

Always happy to help, nothings changed in 10 plus years. PM me. I'll state here the 2 punchlines:
1) MNZ rules have had, for a long time, the perfect classes to induct and take a 10 year old (and groups of them) through to national competency. Young Junior Road Race, Miniature RR, Streetstock, 125GP and Pro Twin. 250 prod is there recently, but I can't see it providing anything the others (mentioned) already have. It should have been kept within Steetstock, at club level, as was intended originally.
2) The success in the SI didn't come from inventing new classes, it just used the existing ones while applying the simple principles of nearly every sporting, business or community venture. Promote, recruit, train, support and recognise. Focus on Safe , Fun , Fair. Too easy.

[Skunk]

I think this went off track with Billy's post as it was about racing classes not introducing riders. Not that introducing riders isn't important.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[Billy]

I think this went off track with Billy's post as it was about racing classes not introducing riders. Not that introducing riders isn't important.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

Yea possibly,

But there isn't really much to discuss re the thunderbike class. It looks good as it is barring your suggestions and the reality is (As I thought you would have realised by now), Theres not alot of point polling the competitors, As they'll tell you what they are thinking now, But do something completely different when the time comes in most cases, Also I think the reason the club scene is struggling this year in some areas is because with the revised format to the Nationals, Many of those who would normally be competing at club level, Now have their sights set on doing the NZSBK series next year and are saving their resources for that, Not that thats a bad thing, I mean it's always been the goal and it was just the fact others were to short sighted to recognise it was the format holding the series back, The problem has been aggravated by the lack of new competitors, You can introduce all the classes you like, But your still working with the same pool of competitors, A better idea in my mind would be for the 3 clubs south of the Bombays to pool resources for the winter, While concentrating on bringing new entrants to the sport through their respective bucket scene.

[quickbuck]

Also I think the reason the club scene is struggling this year in some areas is because with the revised format to the Nationals, Many of those who would normally be competing at club level, Now have their sights set on doing the NZSBK series next year and are saving their resources for that, Not that thats a bad thing, I mean it's always been the goal and it was just the fact others were to short sighted to recognise it was the format holding the series back.
Good point, only one pool of riders really.....


The problem has been aggravated by the lack of new competitors, You can introduce all the classes you like, But your still working with the same pool of competitors, A better idea in my mind would be for the 3 clubs south of the Bombays to pool resources for the winter, While concentrating on bringing new entrants to the sport through their respective bucket scene.

New classes yes, but replacing them all so we have equivalent abilities on the track at the same time! Not necessarily the same bikes, as we all know there is a vast difference in ability for a small group of riders at CLUB level. All the riders want to do is race... Not do a few hot laps without seeing another bike (Like we are getting now!).

Agree we need to foster through the Bucket scene then Development.... BUT we also want to get back those guys who get more bang for buck just doing a Track Day. I know of a few who have said that they have more FUN on track days and get in more laps.
They don't really care about the result after 3rd place, and ride their bike on the track because it is more fun and safer than the road.... Simple as that.

So to sum up, this is about getting the guys with bikes in their shed back to race against their mates.

[Billy]

All the riders want to do is race... Not do a few hot laps without seeing another bike (Like we are getting now!).


They don't really care about the result after 3rd place, and ride their bike on the track because it is more fun and safer than the road.... Simple as that.



Contradiction much ?????? Hahahahaha, Pick one and stick with it will ya !

[Drew]

Does the weight include rider?

I can think of three buckets that beat supersport bikes in power to weight, but let's chuck 'em on a track and see how that plays out.

[suzuki21]

How does this class work overseas? The bikes would have to be at least dynoed before and after EVERY race wouldn't they? For example - Does a 170hp GSXR1000 with a pipe and my suited up weight of 78kg still comply when after the start through electronic trickery and internal engine work it is actually 190hp until after the finish line? I am curious how this is policed.

[Grumph]

From what I've read elsewhere about this class, post race it's first four to park ferme, weighed and dynoed....first four cos if you toss one out of the first three you're going to need 4th place there...

Now while it's a good idea for equalisation, providing a dyno at the venue can be a problem....i understand that it can be a sponsorship/naming rights deal for the dyno owner trying to drum up business - or the fee can be built into the entry. Still a bit awkward in NZ IMO....

[Mental Trousers]

Dyno is always going to be a problem.

The easiest way to do it is to use air restrictors. Weigh the bike, give them the appropriate restrictors for the weight/horsepower, the riders put them in. End of the race the restrictors get pulled and measured.

[scracha]

How does this class work overseas? The bikes would have to be at least dynoed before and after EVERY race wouldn't they? For example - Does a 170hp GSXR1000 with a pipe and my suited up weight of 78kg still comply when after the start through electronic trickery and internal engine work it is actually 190hp until after the finish line? I am curious how this is policed.

It's pretty much spelt out very clearly in the rules. Must be over 10 years old...must be under 130 ponies (thunderbike extreme). They've got a list of bikes. They've got details about other bikes and specials. They've got details on how they weigh and dyno (they don't weight and dyno every bike and it looks like they do it post race). They've even got a special section about electronic trickery. Obviously they've went to great effort and trouble to work out a lot of the details. No point in reinventing the wheel.

Only downside would be posties GSXR1100's and ZX10's not eligible.

[scracha]

Dyno is always going to be a problem.

The easiest way to do it is to use air restrictors. Weigh the bike, give them the appropriate restrictors for the weight/horsepower, the riders put them in. End of the race the restrictors get pulled and measured.

Their rules have nowt about restrictors but that's not a bad idea in order to include more bikes in the class.

http://www.thunderbike.org.uk/forum/index.php?action=vtopic&forum=3

[Skunk]

That's the part I was looking at. Modern vs old, big vs small, nimble vs pig.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[suzuki21]

It's pretty much spelt out very clearly in the rules. Must be over 10 years old...must be under 130 ponies (thunderbike extreme). They've got a list of bikes. They've got details about other bikes and specials. They've got details on how they weigh and dyno (they don't weight and dyno every bike and it looks like they do it post race). They've even got a special section about electronic trickery. Obviously they've went to great effort and trouble to work out a lot of the details. No point in reinventing the wheel.

Only downside would be posties GSXR1100's and ZX10's not eligible.

The class sounds awesome, but MNZ cant even police basic stuff so it will be down to riders honesty which will work........... aye. Eg: An ex NZSBK GSXR750 with lightened crank and 813 piston kit with Alloy rods and kit ignition will comply because I can tune it to 125hp at the flip of a switch?

[Drew]

The class sounds awesome, but MNZ cant even police basic stuff so it will be down to riders honesty which will work........... aye. Eg: An ex NZSBK GSXR750 with lightened crank and 813 piston kit with Alloy rods and kit ignition will comply because I can tune it to 125hp at the flip of a switch?

Who the fuck still has one of those things? Hope Shaun didn't build it, last one he did ran like a sack of shit.

[Shaun Harris]

Who the fuck still has one of those things? Hope Shaun didn't build it, last one he did ran like a sack of shit.






The man I chose to build that motor used a set of cams he thought would be good in it, that was where the problem with it came from. I NEVER build motors myself, I pay a professional to do that work, I am only the chassis parts fitter really

[Drew]

The man I chose to build that motor used a set of cams he thought would be good in it, that was where the problem with it came from. I NEVER build motors myself, I pay a professional to do that work, I am only the chassis parts fitter really

Cool. Your subcontractor fucked it up. Still means you get the blame.

[Shaun Harris]

Cool. Your subcontractor fucked it up. Still means you get the blame.





Haha we ended up in small claims over that motor also, and YEP I WON!!!!

Would love to have another one built by a true professional though, that thing had awesome top end, Ray Clee on his 1000 could only just pass me at the end of main straight at ch ch

[scracha]

The class sounds awesome, but MNZ cant even police basic stuff so it will be down to riders honesty which will work........... aye. Eg: An ex NZSBK GSXR750 with lightened crank and 813 piston kit with Alloy rods and kit ignition will comply because I can tune it to 125hp at the flip of a switch?

>5.2 Bikes are only permitted to have one loaded fuel map at any one time, and any bike found with multiple maps loaded in the software will
>be excluded. Any ‘On-the-fly’ switch-able map is strictly forbidden.
>6. Controls
>6.1 Throttle stops or cable adjustments must be fixed or secured in a manner that will prevent adjustment by the rider or crew without the
>use of tools prior to dyno testing.
>6.2 Switches or other methods designed to affect horsepower readings during dyno testing are strictly prohibited.
>6.3 Machines are restricted to the mounting and use of one ignition or engine management module during all competition. Modules with more
>than one setting must be mounted in such a way that the settings cannot be altered by the rider or crew while on course or prior to dyno
>testing.
>7. Technical Inspection
>7.1 The dyno operator, Technical Official or person appointed by the race or series organisers to ensure eligibility, may request removal of
>bodywork before, during or after dyno testing, and may request removal of other components for inspection.
>7.2 Any machine not capable of post race dyno testing will be deemed to have failed the dyno test.
>7.3 Machines will be run on the dyno until, in the opinion of the dyno operator the maximum output is achieved. If in the op

I don't believe it's a class that's taken too seriously in the UK. It's a club racing class FFS, it's not designed to replace Superbike/Supersport and nobody's gonna get an invite from a Word Superbike team for winning a Thunderbike series. To be honest, it's usually pretty obvious when one bike has extra horsepower and I'd imagine the Technical Officials would spend a bit more time inspecting suspicious bikes.

[Shaun Harris]

All the above technical details again show why we in NZ should race f3 f2 f1 rules. There is to much to police professionally like is done in the uk and other countries

[nodrog]

All the above technical details again show why we in NZ should race f3 f2 f1 rules. There is to much to police professionally like is done in the uk and other countries

wheres my motorbike cunt!

[scracha]

All the above technical details again show why we in NZ should race f3 f2 f1 rules. There is to much to police professionally like is done in the uk and other countries

You can argue the toss about Superbike/Supersport reverting back to F1/F2 for the Nats all you like. This is about having closer racing over less classes at club level. I'd argue that weighing, dynoing and checking mid-race power adjustments are disabled for 2 or 3 selected/random bikes is easier than the complete teardown to check for say, engine mods.

[Drew]

All the above technical details again show why we in NZ should race f3 f2 f1 rules. There is to much to police professionally like is done in the uk and other countries
I don't think so. We are a long way behind the rest of the world when it comes to our bike racing. In nearly every aspect of it. Reverting to an outdated set of rules and doing our own thing will not help that.

The technical details are already sorted, by the folk that use this format already. Employ those, and don't fuck about with them.

[Shaun Harris]

I don't think so. We are a long way behind the rest of the world when it comes to our bike racing. In nearly every aspect of it. Reverting to an outdated set of rules and doing our own thing will not help that.

The technical details are already sorted, by the folk that use this format already. Employ those, and don't fuck about with them.





Because we are a small nation where no real money can be generated from the Racing scene unlike the UK for example. IMO, we need to get back to F rules which will allow the fields to grow even more than they currently are.

We cannot afford a Dyno at the track, the operator to operate it, the scritineering tech man ( That actually knows what he/she is doing) and the costs go on

[Shaun Harris]

wheres my motorbike cunt!







sold it and drunk the funds

[scracha]

Have I had too many Steinies or didn't some enterprising kiwi racer do a home built inertial dyno?

[Grumph]

Have I had too many Steinies or didn't some enterprising kiwi racer do a home built inertial dyno?

More than one...and all read differently too. Do you want to be the arbitrator when someone produces a certificate from one dyno when it fails on another at the track ?

[quickbuck]

More than one...and all read differently too. Do you want to be the arbitrator when someone produces a certificate from one dyno when it fails on another at the track ?
Now, that could be an issue.....
I guess the key is to have a pessimistic Dyno. That way the "Base Line" for your bike will be well under what the Brochure said when it was new...
Also it will read under what ever any other dyno in the country says.

Obviously there will be one dyno in use all season....

Point is, as I see it this is meant to be a fun class, why would anybody bother spending heaps of money on a hot engine?
Not like you are going to get a ride in WSBK from this class......
I would say one could put more effort and money into riding better before they start stuffing around with getting 120Hp (to cheat) from a 22 year old motorcycle for example.....

[scracha]

Now, that could be an issue.....


Issue for every dyno out there. Just stick to one dyno as a baseline like they do overseas.

[Grumph]

Issue for every dyno out there. Just stick to one dyno as a baseline like they do overseas.

Good luck with that - the only mobile dyno i know of in the SI is notoriously optimistic - and the test has to be done at the track post race....

[Shaun Harris]

And if and when a bike blows up on this so called professional dyno, who is paying for it?????

[Drew]

And if and when a bike blows up on this so called professional dyno, who is paying for it?????
Someone entering a class where a dyno run is required post race, is responsible for that risk I would think.

[Shaun Harris]

Someone entering a class where a dyno run is required post race, is responsible for that risk I would think.









Agreed, if PROFESSIONAL Dyno an Operator are used

[Drew]

Agreed, if PROFESSIONAL Dyno an Operator are usedEven if it's not professional, make owner aware that they are responsible and they can opt not to enter. No issue.

[Shaun Harris]

Even if it's not professional, make owner aware that they are responsible and they can opt not to enter. No issue.






Yea true I guess