Retiree shoots pregnant intruder

[MVnut]

Here's another talking point http://news.msn.co.nz/worldnews/8880154/retiree-shoots-dead-pregnant-intruder-begging-for-life

[sidecar bob]

He should recieve a Knighthood for services to the community.

[sil3nt]

He should recieve a Knighthood for services to the community.:niceone:

Shame he couldn't get the other one.

[Big Dog]

I'm not so sure. He says she begged for her life and that I her unborn baby. "She says 'Don't shoot me, I'm pregnant. I'm going to have a baby'. And I shot her anyway," Mr Greer told KNBC-TV.
Doesn't sound like imminent danger to me.
Sounds like a grumpy old man who has been dying to shoot an intruder dead his whole life.



Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[MIXONE]

Can't wait to get to his age.Then you can seriously not give a fuck!

[Stirts]

Can't wait to get to his age.Then you can seriously not give a fuck!

He stole my retirement plan!!

[scrivy]

I'm not so sure. He says she begged for her life and that I her unborn baby. "She says 'Don't shoot me, I'm pregnant. I'm going to have a baby'. And I shot her anyway," Mr Greer told KNBC-TV.
Doesn't sound like imminent danger to me.
Sounds like a grumpy old man who has been dying to shoot an intruder dead his whole life.



Might not be imminent danger, but they have NO right to be in his house period! Nor do they have a right to tackle him to the ground... I wonder if they gave a shit to maybe inflicting life threatening injuries to an 80 year old by doing so.....???

Nope, a mans home is his castle, enter it at your own fucken risk!!
Might just weed out the dumb fucks who don't care about others hard earned property....

[willytheekid]

He stole my retirement plan!!

The new plan!
http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=83041&d=1384694797
...because why stop at only two rounds! :devil2:

[Stirts]

The new plan!

...because why stop at only two rounds! :devil2:

EXACTLY...take out as many lowlifescumsuckingfuckknuckles as I can before I get put in a plushie cell with underfloor heating, 3 square meals a day, and provided with primary health care...just a cheaper retirement village really.

[avgas]

Meh he could have just shot her once.......its the double tap that concerns me a little.
1st was defence of himself and his property.........2nd really is a blatant murder "cos he could".

A bit like pushing over motorbikes in a footpath rather than politely moving them out of the way. Sure your allowed to push them over - they did wrong........but that doesn't make it right.

He had every right to shoot her.............once.

[willytheekid]

EXACTLY...take out as many lowlifescumsuckingfuckknuckles as I can before I get put in a plushie cell with underfloor heating, and 3 square meals a day.

Ahhh...retirement...can't wait!:laugh:
(always wanted underfloor heating too:yes:)

[Stirts]

Meh he could have just shot her once.......its the double tap that concerns me a little.

Well she was pregnant. :dodge:

[Tazz]

Sheeet that's a tricky one depending how you look at it. If you think about the fact when they entered someones home to burgle and possibly attack the homeowner then the blame is quite easily put with the woman who was shot.

If you make her the victim because she had the chance to plead for forgiveness realize it was a bad idea then it looks pretty bad.


A bit like pushing over motorbikes in a footpath rather than politely moving them out of the way. Sure your allowed to push them over - they did wrong........but that doesn't make it right.


Sweet! You can push my bike over while I go rob the shit out of your house and trash it, and if any of your family is there I will beat them up while I'm at it.

Excellent and fair comparison.


http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT4rT5uQvSrjkR3Sm-8_kunEai0LiK1NDl9u91fRXPN4KCZPeXsiQ

[bogan]

More concerning I think, judging by the article title anyway, is that the dead are intruding.

[TheDemonLord]

Meh he could have just shot her once.......its the double tap that concerns me a little.


Not at all - an 80 year old man - even a very fit and active 80 year old man, is only going to get one shot (pun fully intended) at defending himself. If he just wounded her, there is entirely a possibility she could still overpower them (Mothering instinct can do funny things)

Also he used a .22 - so double tap to be sure

[Katman]

Do I have any sympathy for the woman? No.

Do I support the actions of the old dude? No - he's a fucking psychopath.

[TheDemonLord]

Do I have any sympathy for the woman? No.

Do I support the actions of the old dude? No - he's a fucking psychopath.

Or maybe he is a cynical that if someone can break into an old persons home, wrestle them to the ground quite happily - that maybe they are human trash and need to be disposed of?

I'd buy that old man a beer.

[Edbear]

I'm not so sure. He says she begged for her life and that I her unborn baby. "She says 'Don't shoot me, I'm pregnant. I'm going to have a baby'. And I shot her anyway," Mr Greer told KNBC-TV.
Doesn't sound like imminent danger to me.
Sounds like a grumpy old man who has been dying to shoot an intruder dead his whole life.



Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.


Meh he could have just shot her once.......its the double tap that concerns me a little.
1st was defence of himself and his property.........2nd really is a blatant murder "cos he could".

A bit like pushing over motorbikes in a footpath rather than politely moving them out of the way. Sure your allowed to push them over - they did wrong........but that doesn't make it right.

He had every right to shoot her.............once.


Do I have any sympathy for the woman? No.

Do I support the actions of the old dude? No - he's a fucking psychopath.

Incredible as it may seem, I tend to agree with Katman to a point. It was cold blooded murder, X2, in anyone's language, nothing to do with self defense at all. If she had been coming at him with a weapon it would be different.

He could easily have kept her there for the Police to collect and had he done so, they would have caught the scumbag who scarpered, leaving her to take the rap.

[nodrog]

Have you cunts not seen Cops and the amount of rounds they use?

America, Fuck yeah!

[oneofsix]

not a lot to go on in the article except:
1/ they had invaded his home
2/ they had wrestled him to the ground once already
3/ they must have left him in what they took to be an incapacitated state as they continued rifling his place.
4/ she knew she was preggers when she went there.

What we don't know is:
1/ which one was the leader, I would guess the woman.
2/ the male took to his heals therefore suggesting the main threat was the female.
3/ how was the statement about being preggers made, as she cowered in the corner, as she ran away or as she came at him?
4/ how were the shots fired, one shot but she kept coming then the second, or first incapacitated her and then he finished her, as a rapid double tap with an underpowered gun?

Doesn't change the fact that if she hadn't been there, doing wrong, then she and her kid would be alive or at least not shot by him.

[Gremlin]

Have you cunts not seen Cops and the amount of rounds they use?

America, Fuck yeah!
http://i.imgur.com/uQg4I.jpg

[buggerit]

Was she pregnant?, so she said
Does scum breed scum?, thats what animal breeders will tell you
Did she give a shit about the old boy?probably not
Will she do it again? unlikely

[Akzle]

fucking old fag, should have had a .44

[buggerit]

fucking old fag, should have had a .44
Might be a bit expensive for a pensioner to run, depending on the neighborhood:shifty:

[mashman]

Incredible as it may seem, I tend to agree with Katman to a point. It was cold blooded murder, X2, in anyone's language, nothing to do with self defense at all. If she had been coming at him with a weapon it would be different.

He could easily have kept her there for the Police to collect and had he done so, they would have caught the scumbag who scarpered, leaving her to take the rap.

Yup, Murder... and thought the same thing in regards to holding her there. He could have shot her in the leg/kneecap to accomplish the not getting away thing.

[Akzle]

Might be a bit expensive for a pensioner to run, depending on the neighborhood:shifty:

2x .22 = 1x.44
=D

[nodrog]

He should have incapacitated her with a cuddle.

[caseye]

Any of you soft cocks out there ever tried holding an offender ( oh sorry,we're in NZ aye, an alleged offender) One of two remember.
Until the Police arrive? If they arrive.
Who together have already assaulted an 80 year old person to such a degree that they thought they were incapable of further fight, or had died.
Did they give a fuck?
What happens if the other one comes back?
Rules are different over there, in respect of your home being your castle, if you are caught and if you can be shot, you will be.
Too easy to say yeah,na shouldn't have done it.
Good riddance to bad rubbish both old and new.

[Akzle]

a struggle cuddle?


in the ass. no babies that way...

[Big Dog]

I agree with shooting the alleged bitch of she still presented a danger. But if the quoted conversation was held she was not running at him. If he'd shot her 8 times without her saying a word I'd be going. Woop whoop ring that bell for the good guys. Try telling some one you are pregnant and please don't kill me. That shit was cold.
Shoot her I the leg then let her choose to wait for the ambulance. If she does oh well.
Not bend her over the sofa and do her Gotti styles.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[Kickaha]

He could have shot her in the leg/kneecap to accomplish the not getting away thing.

Are you really that fucking thick, that shit only works in the movies

[Big Dog]

Are you really that fucking thick, that shit only works in the movies

Cowering or reversing through your house you'd have a reasonable chance of hitting something.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[mashman]

Are you really that fucking thick, that shit only works in the movies

Then he should have had a shotgun.

[nzspokes]

I agree with shooting the alleged bitch of she still presented a danger. But if the quoted conversation was held she was not running at him. If he'd shot her 8 times without her saying a word I'd be going. Woop whoop ring that bell for the good guys. Try telling some one you are pregnant and please don't kill me. That shit was cold.
Shoot her I the leg then let her choose to wait for the ambulance. If she does oh well.
Not bend her over the sofa and do her Gotti styles.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

Old fella gets jumped and attacked. He is dropped to the floor and assaulted. He gets his hands on a weapon and starts to defend himself. Who knows what was going through his mind. The male "got away" but for all he knows the male is close and about to attack again, this time armed. So can he defend himself against 2?

Lets not forget he is the victim.

I did read ages ago about police shootings, police were trained to shoot once/twice. But most emptied the weapon at the target in real life. Its how we react under extreme threat.

[Akzle]

I did read ages ago about police shootings, police were trained to shoot once/twice. But most emptied the weapon at the target in real life. Its how we react under extreme threat.

police are the last (people?) who should have firearms.

[Big Dog]

Old fella gets jumped and attacked. He is dropped to the floor and assaulted. He gets his hands on a weapon and starts to defend himself. Who knows what was going through his mind. The male "got away" but for all he knows the male is close and about to attack again, this time armed. So can he defend himself against 2?

Lets not forget he is the victim.

I did read ages ago about police shootings, police were trained to shoot once/twice. But most emptied the weapon at the target in real life. Its how we react under extreme threat.

I have not forgotten he is the victim.
The wording of the article intimates he had plenty of time to make a decision and he seems pretty pleased (based on his quotes) that he made the decision to end her life... the way that the article is worded that is...
Fuck, someone was in my house they would get the opportunity to put the hands behind their head and cross their legs if hey had the time to have beg for their life... if they had not had the time to beg because I had reacted faster than them they would get shot. As many times as it took for them to stop moving. If they started moving again they might just get shot again...

First shot or two, center body mass so the police know who they are looking for.
Oh, it's looking like I might survive depending on the range and the level of danger two more to center body or the head.
Repeat.

They have already started begging and one has got away?
This means I have her point blank: Shoot the bitch so she can't run and if she does police will find her, if it was a proper kicking in the kneecap.
Knowing you have an unborn fetus, the other offender is coming back sooner or later, or at least the daddy is. You need a live hostage if you're thinking.

[nzspokes]

I have not forgotten he is the victim.
The wording of the article intimates he had plenty of time to make a decision and he seems pretty pleased (based on his quotes) that he made the decision to end her life... the way that the article is worded that is...
Fuck, someone was in my house they would get the opportunity to put the hands behind their head and cross their legs if hey had the time to have beg for their life... if they had not had the time to beg because I had reacted faster than them they would get shot. As many times as it took for them to stop moving. If they started moving again they might just get shot again...

First shot or two, center body mass so the police know who they are looking for.
Oh, it's looking like I might survive depending on the range and the level of danger two more to center body or the head.
Repeat.

They have already started begging and one has got away?
This means I have her point blank: Shoot the bitch so she can't run and if she does police will find her, if it was a proper kicking in the kneecap.
Knowing you have an unborn fetus, the other offender is coming back sooner or later, or at least the daddy is. You need a live hostage if you're thinking.

You seem to think he had time to think this through. He was under attack. He reacted. You are thinking of it as a man in his forty's, not as an eighty year old who is fighting for his life.

[Grumph]

You seem to think he had time to think this through. He was under attack. He reacted. You are thinking of it as a man in his forty's, not as an eighty year old who is fighting for his life.

Correct - we retirees will cling to life as hard as we can. Fuck the young ones coming to take our posessions and break our fragile bones...
If he'd only put one slug into her she could still have beaten him badly with whatever was handy. Look at the girls a couple of years ago - teenagers who beat an OAP to death in his bed - in the BOP I think ?

[R650R]

That's some pretty hard core stuff from the old fella.
I think as the population ages we will have a few more of these Bruce emery type moments where people who've had enough react a bit more than they perhaps should.

Another thing to consider I'd if your armed and don't use the weapon you risk the offender taking it off you, the police in USA have a 21 ft guideline for this...

Anyone watch the other vid after, guy robs bank with walking frame!!!

[Ocean1]

That's some pretty hard core stuff from the old fella.
I think as the population ages we will have a few more of these Bruce emery type moments where people who've had enough react a bit more than they perhaps should.

If they'd been taught not to steal other kids lunches, or even taught not to shoplift, or perhaps not to boost cars...

Then maybe some old bastard wouldn't have to kill them for being unfit to live in a civilised world.

Old fellas is really all you've got left to teach that lesson, not many others know the syllabus.

[98tls]

That's some pretty hard core stuff from the old fella.
I think as the population ages we will have a few more of these Bruce emery type moments where people who've had enough react a bit more than they perhaps should.

Another thing to consider I'd if your armed and don't use the weapon you risk the offender taking it off you, the police in USA have a 21 ft guideline for this...

Anyone watch the other vid after, guy robs bank with walking frame!!!

About it,all could have been avoided with a few kicks up the arse and the odd thick ear.

[Big Dog]

You seem to think he had time to think this through. He was under attack. He reacted. You are thinking of it as a man in his forty's, not as an eighty year old who is fighting for his life.

Nope. I seem to think the article implies he had time to rationalise a decision he is still proud of.

I don't think he did anything.
I don't think he was in the wrong.
I don't think he was in the right.

I think the article does not provide enough facts to support his actions. Hence my initial statement.
I then proposed a couple of hypothesis.
I think if the slant of the article is accurate is is a psychopath.
If he is bullshitting about the pleas for mercy he did the right thing.


He claims he was begged for mercy and showed none.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[Paul in NZ]

Cant see anything to be proud of in that story from the reporter covering it through to those living it....

[nzspokes]

He claims he was begged for mercy and showed none.

Did they show him mercy when they beat him down?

Did she think of outcomes when they home invaded him?

[bogan]

Did they show him mercy when they beat him down?

Did she think of outcomes when they home invaded him?

Does either of those things justify the death penalty?

[nzspokes]

Does either of those things justify the death penalty?

Read post #34.

[Akzle]

Does either of those things justify the death penalty?

in texas, yes, both. Infact if someone fucks with your neighbours shit you can bust a cap in dey ass.
Castle law.

[bogan]

Read post #34.

It isn't self defense if your attacker is incapacitated and begging for mercy. At that point it becomes the dishing out of personal justice.

[nzspokes]

It isn't self defense if your attacker is incapacitated and begging for mercy. At that point it becomes the dishing out of personal justice.

Where was the male? Was he armed now? Was the female capable of taking the weapon and using it? How was the female incapacitated?

[bogan]

Where was the male? Was he armed now? Was the female capable of taking the weapon and using it? How was the female incapacitated?

The article didn't say, though it certainly implies he shot the woman once as she was running away, and then a second time to finish her off.
""I come back and they see me with a gun, and they run," Mr Greer said."

Like I said, "It isn't self defense if your attacker is incapacitated and begging for mercy. At that point it becomes the dishing out of personal justice."

[MD]

He claims he was begged for mercy and showed none.

.

Maybe he couldn't give her any mercy because some thieving pricks had broken into his home and stolen his entire supply of mercy.

I think any recipient of mercy should be deserving. If someone gives no mercy to others they harm then by their actions they have chosen to forfeit any right or claim to receive mercy from others

[nzspokes]

The article didn't say, though it certainly implies he shot the woman once as she was running away

Was she running to get a weapon and resume the attack? Was the motivation to kill the old fella and take whatever they were after? Was the male coming back? Was he armed?

Had they made threats to kill him?

They invaded his home. They attacked him. They did this in a country that allows the use of deadly force to protect themselves.

[Sharry]

Does either of those things justify the death penalty?


What justified a home invasion?
What justified beating and attempting to disable an elderly man?
How do we know she was pregnant?
How do any of us know how we would react after a home invasion and beating with your body filled with adrenaline where one offender has left the house, maybe to get his own weapon and return?
He spent his life earning what he has got and nobody has any right to terrorise him in that way.

There is not enough respect for the elderly, or people in general.

[Big Dog]

Mercy is one of the few things you improve your life by giving it away.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[nzspokes]

Mercy is one of the few things you improve your life by giving it away.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

I would imagine mercy is the last thing on your mind when somebody has just tried to kill you.

[Big Dog]

Don't get me wrong. There is a reason my crow bar is where it is.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[bogan]

Was she running to get a weapon and resume the attack? Was the motivation to kill the old fella and take whatever they were after? Was the male coming back? Was he armed?

Had they made threats to kill him?

They invaded his home. They attacked him. They did this in a country that allows the use of deadly force to protect themselves.

I dunno, do you? there is nothing in the article about imminent peril, sounds more like he just felt he had an excuse to do some killing he could get away with. Not to say the article is 100% accurate of course, but the ambiguity bears thinking about I would say. There are certainly case in which such a killing would be justifiable, just as there are certainly cases in which it would not; without more info to decide which is which I don't think an in-home beating/invasion justifies the death penalty.

[Sharry]

Mercy is one of the few things you improve your life by giving it away.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

I'm sorry but give mercy were mercy has been earnt.

Give mercy to an assailant so they can run off laughing at getting away with it, which will reinforce their core values and encourage them to do it again to someone else... who may not survive to defend themselves?

[bogan]

What justified a home invasion?
What justified beating and attempting to disable an elderly man?
How do we know she was pregnant?
How do any of us know how we would react after a home invasion and beating with your body filled with adrenaline where one offender has left the house, maybe to get his own weapon and return?
He spent his life earning what he has got and nobody has any right to terrorise him in that way.

There is not enough respect for the elderly, or people in general.

Nothing.
Nothing.
Is it really relevant?
We don't, possibly why the article is worth reading and thinking about; I don't think I could ever get over killing someone while they begger for mercy no matter how well justified it as, could you?
Of course they don't. But just cos they didn't have the right to do what they did, doesn't mean they no longer have the right to live.

So, the solution to not enough respect is to just kill the disrespectful? Not sure I'm quite on board with such measures :oi-grr:

[Akzle]

Mercy is one of the few things you improve your life by giving it away.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

so's money. And cocaine.

[oldrider]

I would imagine mercy is the last thing on your mind when somebody has just tried to kill you.

I don't think he was too threatened to leave it up to the law to sort .. as metioned above he had been waiting all his life for a chance to do that and he took it! :2guns:

Who needs enemies with countrymen like him! :oi-grr: . Silly old cunt IMHO! :weird:

[nzspokes]

I dunno, do you? there is nothing in the article about imminent peril

You dont think the fact they just beat him to the ground is not imminent peril?

Where did they show him mercy? How did he know he was safe?

Do you really think they gave a shit about him when the broke in and tried to beat him down and potentially kill him? He is 80. A fall of any kind can kill.

[Big Dog]

I would imagine mercy is the last thing on your mind when somebody has just tried to kill you.

Only happened a dozen times. None home invasions.

Although the threat level was high and real I have been lucky.

Most I was in a position to retaliate. I last retaliated with violence 25 years ago to stop further violence from a sadistic bully. I last responded with intimidation 15 years ago.

I don't hold a grudge. Hell, no grudge moments after the fact.

Forgiveness does more for your soul than the person who harmed you.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[nzspokes]

Forgiveness does more for your soul than the person who harmed you.


It doesnt do a lot when somebody is stomping on your head.

[bogan]

You dont think the fact they just beat him to the ground is not imminent peril?

Where did they show him mercy? How did he know he was safe?

Do you really think they gave a shit about him when the broke in and tried to beat him down and potentially kill him? He is 80. A fall of any kind can kill.

No, it isn't; by the very definition of the word imminent.

Instead of beating him to death, they only incapacitated him; one could argue that is mercy.

Of course they didn't, but that is beside my point. You seem to think simply because they broke in and assaulted him they deserved to die; I do not think this is a good way of thinking as it simply escalates things, an eye for an eye is bad enough; this just goes another step too far.

[Big Dog]

I'm sorry but give mercy were mercy has been earnt.

Give mercy to an assailant so they can run off laughing at getting away with it, which will reinforce their core values and encourage them to do it again to someone else... who may not survive to defend themselves?

If you give mercy only where mercy is due you have done nothing but your duty.

When you give mercy because you can, that is power.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[Sharry]

Nothing.
Nothing.
Is it really relevant?
We don't, possibly why the article is worth reading and thinking about; I don't think I could ever get over killing someone while they begger for mercy no matter how well justified it as, could you?
Of course they don't. But just cos they didn't have the right to do what they did, doesn't mean they no longer have the right to live.

So, the solution to not enough respect is to just kill the disrespectful? Not sure I'm quite on board with such measures :oi-grr:

I don't disagree, he should not have had a loaded gun lying in reach. without that this would not have happened.
I don't have a gun and could not shoot anyone either. I don't think invading an elderly man's sacnturary and beating him up then try to rob him deserves the death penelty. But he lives in a country where a man is allowed to defend his property. In that land I would chose not to invade his house.
There will be too many things that we don't know about it

[nzspokes]

Instead of beating him to death, they only incapacitated him;

Only because he got his hands on a weapon.

They beat him. He is 80. How well do you think an 80 year old body handles a beating?

[Sharry]

If you give mercy only where mercy is due you have done nothing but your duty.

When you give mercy because you can, that is power.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

I see giving mercy to someone who has just beaten the shit out me and is now robbing me as giving them more power than they sarted with. That is telling them they are good people and what they are doing is with worth forgiving.

I give mercy where is it is due, not to make me feel good.

[bogan]

I don't disagree, he should not have had a loaded gun lying in reach. without that this would not have happened.
I don't have a gun and could not shoot anyone either. I don't think invading an elderly man's sacnturary and beating him up then try to rob him deserves the death penelty. But he lives in a country where a man is allowed to defend his property. In that land I would chose not to invade his house.
There will be too many things that we don't know about it

I don't know about the not having a gun thing, the gun culture over there is just way too different to here to make any judgement calls on how that escalates/de-escalates the situation. Agree with the rest, especially that we don't know enough about it to make a call one way or the other.

[Big Dog]

It doesnt do a lot when somebody is stomping on your head.

She wasn't stomping on his head when she begged for the life of her unborn child.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[bogan]

Only because he got his hands on a weapon.

They beat him. He is 80. How well do you think an 80 year old body handles a beating?

He didn't get his hands on the weapon mid fight though, they stopped for other reasons "I come back and they see me with a gun, and they run"

Ah, so is it only beating up 80 year olds that earns you the death penalty? Stop using the straw man argument that they are in the wrong; of course they are, but it certainly isn't clear that they were far enough in the wrong to justify being killed while begging for mercy.

[Sharry]

She wasn't stomping on his head when she begged for the life of her unborn child.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

She may have said that to gain an advantage, we do not know that she was. She had already done the head stomping by then.

[nzspokes]

She wasn't stomping on his head when she begged for the life of her unborn child.



Was she thinking about her unborn child when she was stomping on his head? When she broke into his property?

[nzspokes]

He didn't get his hands on the weapon mid fight though, they stopped for other reasons "I come back and they see me with a gun, and they run"

Ah, so is it only beating up 80 year olds that earns you the death penalty? Stop using the straw man argument that they are in the wrong; of course they are, but it certainly isn't clear that they were far enough in the wrong to justify being killed while begging for mercy.

You think beating up 80 year old's doesn't deserve a death penalty?

[Big Dog]

Oh I do apologise. About ten years ago I used a pavement to subdue a violent drunk who had already injured to of my bouncers to the point yet required medial attention. One stitches.

But I stopped when he was unable to continue.

I choked him out when he came to and started up again. But again stopped when he was no longer a threat.
Loaned him my jacket to keep his head off the cement while we waited for the police and ambulance.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[Big Dog]

She may have said that to gain an advantage, we do not know that she was. She had already done the head stomping by then.

I know. That is why I only said I cannot support the action.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[Big Dog]

Was she thinking about her unborn child when she was stomping on his head? When she broke into his property?

So you have never needed forgiveness you did not deserve?


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[Big Dog]

You think beating up 80 year old's doesn't deserve a death penalty?

And the 80 year old who just got emasculated is the best person to be judge jury and executioner?


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[nzspokes]

Oh I do apologise. About ten years ago I used a pavement to subdue a violent drunk who had already injured to of my bouncers to the point yet required medial attention. One stitches.

But I stopped when he was unable to continue.

I choked him out when he came to and started up again. But again stopped when he was no longer a threat.
Loaned him my jacket to keep his head off the cement while we waited for the police and ambulance.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

Different situation. The old fella only had one means of defense. He had 2 attackers and no back up.

And he had just been beaten down, and he is 80.

[bogan]

You think beating up 80 year old's doesn't deserve a death penalty?

Of course it doesn't deserve a death penalty. I'm quite surprised you think it does, but seems we've got to the heart of why our opinions on this matter differ; so that is a sort of progress at least.

[nzspokes]

And the 80 year old who just got emasculated is the best person to be judge jury and executioner?


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

The 80 year old that was just beaten and was still under threat you mean?

[Sharry]

Oh I do apologise. About ten years ago I used a pavement to subdue a violent drunk who had already injured to of my bouncers to the point yet required medial attention. One stitches.

But I stopped when he was unable to continue.

I choked him out when he came to and started up again. But again stopped when he was no longer a threat.
Loaned him my jacket to keep his head off the cement while we waited for the police and ambulance.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

That's cool if it made you feel better after choking him and leaving him defenceless. THis man was in a very different situation, his attackers where fit and mobile and giving mercy may have left him dead.

[bogan]

The 80 year old that was just beaten and was still under threat you mean?

Imminent peril has not been established at the time of the shooting. That is why the cops over there are deciding whether or not to press charges.

[nzspokes]

Imminent peril has not been established at the time of the shooting. That is why the cops over there are deciding whether or not to press charges.

Where was the male? Had he gone to get a weapon?

[bogan]

Where was the male? Had he gone to get a weapon?

There is a difference between hypothesising imminent peril and establishing it.

Though even if that were the case, i hardly think him coming back to his missus and unborn kid being dead is going to deescalate the situation.

[Sharry]

Where was the male? Had he gone to get a weapon?

If I was in that man's postition I would be thinking he had gone to the car for a weapon, and i wouldn't wait for 5 mins to see if came back with a bazuka. Which would put me in imminent danger!!!

[Big Dog]

That's cool if it made you feel better after choking him and leaving him defenceless. THis man was in a very different situation, his attackers where fit and mobile and giving mercy may have left him dead.

Nope. Didn't make me feel any better.
I did what I had to with as little force as possible. That didn't make me feel any better either.

What made me feel better was that only two of my bouncers needed medical attention. A third did not get hit a cross the back I the head with a beer handle. None of the patrons Were seriously hurt.


My point was more a measured response was delivered to remove the threat. Once removed mercy was shown.
No I was not elderly, but since when does being elderly give you the right to execute someone who has surrendered?


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[nzspokes]

There is a difference between hypothesising imminent peril and establishing it.

Though even if that were the case, i hardly think him coming back to his missus and unborn kid being dead is going to deescalate the situation.

Im not talking about defending it in court. Talking about what would have been in his mind at the time.

With the female down he only had to deal with the male coming back.

[bogan]

Im not talking about defending it in court. Talking about what would have been in his mind at the time.

With the female down he only had to deal with the male coming back.

So, just more hypothesising then. Could also have been he just felt like he'd get away with some killing, no way to tell which, is there?

She was already down from the first shot by the sounds of it.

[nzspokes]

Nope. Didn't make me feel any better.
I did what I had to with as little force as possible. That didn't make me feel any better either.

What made me feel better was that only two of my bouncers needed medical attention. A third did not get hit a cross the back I the head with a beer handle. None of the patrons Were seriously hurt.


My point was more a measured response was delivered to remove the threat. Once removed mercy was shown.
No I was not elderly, but since when does being elderly give you the right to execute someone who has surrendered?


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

He is 80. The female was still a threat. She is fitter and faster than him.

[Big Dog]

Being 80 does not make it right to execute someone begging for mercy.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[Sharry]

Nope. Didn't make me feel any better.
I did what I had to with as little force as possible. That didn't make me feel any better either.

What made me feel better was that only two of my bouncers needed medical attention. A third did not get hit a cross the back I the head with a beer handle. None of the patrons Were seriously hurt.


My point was more a measured response was delivered to remove the threat. Once removed mercy was shown.
No I was not elderly, but since when does being elderly give you the right to execute someone who has surrendered?


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

The obvious has been stated. he is 80 years old, has already been beaten to the ground in his own sanctuary and was not strong enough to over power his young assailants. I will not say that shooting or killing is right. But he lives in a country that allows him to have a gun and he felt he needed to defend himself.
By their behaviour to that point he may not have had enough reason to believe she held no further threat and was genuinly giving herself up to do no further harm. In her spot I would ask for mercy and even lie to get it and possably be lying and intending that this man does not get the chance to fire the gun.
When a court tells him he had no right to do that

[avgas]

Was she thinking about her unborn child when she was stomping on his head? When she broke into his property?
Probably not. But in the same regard - parents do dumb shit and we shouldn't blame kids for who they have as parents.

[avgas]

Any of you soft cocks out there ever tried holding an offender ( oh sorry,we're in NZ aye, an alleged offender) One of two remember.
Until the Police arrive? If they arrive.
Who together have already assaulted an 80 year old person to such a degree that they thought they were incapable of further fight, or had died.
Did they give a fuck?
What happens if the other one comes back?
Rules are different over there, in respect of your home being your castle, if you are caught and if you can be shot, you will be.
Too easy to say yeah,na shouldn't have done it.
Good riddance to bad rubbish both old and new.
(line by line)
Yes
No
Wasn't and 80 year old but yes
At the immediate time no, but later yes.
Shot them....once
Fair enough - but any moron can hit a coke can at 10 ft..........so no need to double tap
That video of his recount of the events is pretty black and white. He sounds like he wants to be called a hero for killing someone.......that is the sign of a psychopathic murderer (I'm not kidding - look it up).
Book and Cover much?

[avgas]

Not at all - an 80 year old man - even a very fit and active 80 year old man, is only going to get one shot (pun fully intended) at defending himself. If he just wounded her, there is entirely a possibility she could still overpower them (Mothering instinct can do funny things)
Also he used a .22 - so double tap to be sure
You are kidding me right? Did you hear his recount.
"She's dead, I'm sure"
"I shot her once. Then I walked up to her, she begged for her life, and I shot her again"

He wasn't disabling her, He wasn't scared, He didn't defensively shoot her again on a reaction, He was empowered and "Finishing the Job".
A hitman with a "justification".

I am sure he had more than 4 rounds - could have shot every limb and waited for the cops if he could "Walk up to her".

[avgas]

Excellent and fair comparison.
Oh don't get all namby pamby because I stuck a nerve. What if I am a fire man and you parked your motorbike next to a fire hydrant?
Do you think I would get in trouble if I shoved your illegally parked bike out of the way with the truck?
What if you parked on a driveway?

Fact is if you do something wrong - 2 wrongs might be legal........but doesn't make it right.

In this case he had every right to shoot an intruder - but a wise man would have disabled the intruder enough so the cop could some. What this chap did was kill someone on the second shot with the ability of planing/intent ("I walked up to her and shot her again, then she died"). (aka murder in the first degree).

Murder in the second degree is the grey area as that means he 'reacted'. But this was his intent - to shoot her dead. It was just he was unable to do this on first shot.

[MarkH]

Meh he could have just shot her once.......its the double tap that concerns me a little.


Yup, Murder... and thought the same thing in regards to holding her there. He could have shot her in the leg/kneecap to accomplish the not getting away thing.


Shoot her I the leg then let her choose to wait for the ambulance.

The big problem I see here is the lack of understanding of US law - you can't go wounding an intruder and then let them live!
There are plenty of cases of where someone has done exactly that and then been successfully sued, the stress of a lawsuit would probably kill an 80 year old man.
Also - wounded and fearful would make an intruder more dangerous, greater risk of them trying some desperate action that would kill the old man.

If the police decide to lay charges then how will they prove that the man didn't believe that his life was in imminent danger?
How could he know that this woman was incapable of overpowering him and taking his gun?
How could he know that the other scum wouldn't be back with a gun to save his pregnant girlfriend (making it 2 v 1)?

Sure he can take an attitude and say "she begged for mercy but I didn't give it", but there would be a different attitude presented by his lawyer in court. I don't believe the police would have a hope in hell of securing a conviction if they did decide to press charges.

[mashman]

The big problem I see here is the lack of understanding of US law - you can't go wounding an intruder and then let them live!
There are plenty of cases of where someone has done exactly that and then been successfully sued, the stress of a lawsuit would probably kill an 80 year old man.
Also - wounded and fearful would make an intruder more dangerous, greater risk of them trying some desperate action that would kill the old man.

If the police decide to lay charges then how will they prove that the man didn't believe that his life was in imminent danger?
How could he know that this woman was incapable of overpowering him and taking his gun?
How could he know that the other scum wouldn't be back with a gun to save his pregnant girlfriend (making it 2 v 1)?

Sure he can take an attitude and say "she begged for mercy but I didn't give it", but there would be a different attitude presented by his lawyer in court. I don't believe the police would have a hope in hell of securing a conviction if they did decide to press charges.

Fur sure the law will make an arse of it. In a perfect world we'd forgive and forget and put it down to stupid people making stupid decisions in the defence of and want for property. However it looks as though the guy is hanging himself with his statements, which for me, casts doubt about the justification to remove someone's life. But yeah, the court will have its dance, the jury will make their decision and the world will turn without really addressing the reason for the bastards breaking into his house for stuff in the first place.

[AllanB]

Was she black? ............:crazy:

[nodrog]

Being 80 does not make it right to execute someone begging for mercy.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

Being a Robbing piece of shit crackhead nigger bitch doesn't make it right to enter peoples homes and steal their stuff.

[Ocean1]

the world will turn without really addressing the reason for the bastards breaking into his house for stuff in the first place.

Who fucking cares? They're thieves. Violent ones. They had their chance and it's not actually relevant what their reason was, as of the moment they made that choice they're better off dead, and the sooner the better.

[Big Dog]

The big problem I see here is the lack of understanding of US law - you can't go wounding an intruder and then let them live!
There are plenty of cases of where someone has done exactly that and then been successfully sued, the stress of a lawsuit would probably kill an 80 year old man.
Also - wounded and fearful would make an intruder more dangerous, greater risk of them trying some desperate action that would kill the old man.

If the police decide to lay charges then how will they prove that the man didn't believe that his life was in imminent danger?
How could he know that this woman was incapable of overpowering him and taking his gun?
How could he know that the other scum wouldn't be back with a gun to save his pregnant girlfriend (making it 2 v 1)?

Sure he can take an attitude and say "she begged for mercy but I didn't give it", but there would be a different attitude presented by his lawyer in court. I don't believe the police would have a hope in hell of securing a conviction if they did decide to press charges.

I am not talking about someone's right in law. I am talking about doing the right thing.

So the boyfriend might be back with a tomahawk and a .44. Doesn't mean he is.

You are riding to work and draw level with a car. It is possible at this moment in time that the driver might pull into your space without indicating. Without evidence of the threat is it right for you to rage at the driver? Maybe put a hammer through his window?


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[Big Dog]

Being a Robbing piece of shit crackhead nigger bitch doesn't make it right to enter peoples homes and steal their stuff.

I have not spoken of nor do I care for the legality. My interest is I the morality / humanity.
Someone else being a wretched excuse for a human being does not excuse you from being the better person.


If you sink to the depths of everyone who slights you it does not make you a vigilante hero, it makes you as bad as them.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[Tazz]

Oh don't get all namby pamby because I stuck a nerve.

I'm not getting namby pamby, I was calling it how it is, and it is a ridiculous comparison which along the lines of comparing rape to parking less than 6m from a curb ;)

If you think those two things are on the same level or that burglary turned home invasion is the same as pushing someones bike over, then there is a loose connection in your swede/moral compass.

[Big Dog]

Another thought re the partner in crime who most are assuming is the baby daddy.

Being as we are all hypothesising.

Assuming he got away clean and went home to wait for his girlfriend. Oh, she hasn't come home. Maybe the police have her. Chicken shit that ran away leaving her behind is unlikely to go back same night.
Possibly even go on the lam.

Putting myself in the shoes of a career criminal who just lost their child. Pretty good chance some retribution is on the cards.
Not a just a beat down.
Depending on the social background of the criminal that could include killing every living relative and leaving him to think about that.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[nodrog]

..... My interest is I the morality / humanity.......

no it isn't, other wise you would go to the root cause of the situation, which is some morally corrupt inhumane piece of shit was burglurising an innocent citizen.

[Big Dog]

no it isn't, other wise you would go to the root cause of the situation, which is some morally corrupt inhumane piece of shit was burglurising an innocent citizen.

Except we have no information about that part of the event.

Two wrongs still don't make a right.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[nodrog]

Except we have no information about that part of the event. .....

Um of course you fuckin do, he didn't go around and break into her house and shoot the bitch.

[Big Dog]

The assumption prevailing in the thread was this was two career criminals high on crack / meth.
Do your feelings change if that is your daughter? Maybe peer pressure over ruled your parenting?


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[Sharry]

First nobody has confirmed that she was pregnant!

Second we do not know how many times this man has been robbed, invaded or beaten in his 60 years of adult life and has finnaly had enough of it!

So quickly people go to defend the bloody criminal and condem the victim!

[bogan]

So quickly people go to defend the bloody criminal and condem the victim!

That is pretty ironic that you say that; can still go both ways in this case depending on what facts come to light.

[Katman]

First nobody has confirmed that she was pregnant!

Second we do not know how many times this man has been robbed, invaded or beaten in his 60 years of adult life and has finnaly had enough of it!

So quickly people go to defend the bloody criminal and condem the victim!

Seriously, you're as retarded as your boyfriend.

[nodrog]

The assumption prevailing in the thread was this was two career criminals high on crack / meth.
Do your feelings change if that is your daughter? Maybe peer pressure over ruled your parenting?


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

Oh shit, it was their house, they were stealing their own possessions, they weren't on drugs that's normal behaviour, black people don't steal.

My bad.

If I had a pregnant crackhead stealing daughter I shoot the cunt myself, after I punched her in the guts.

[Big Dog]

First nobody has confirmed that she was pregnant!

Second we do not know how many times this man has been robbed, invaded or beaten in his 60 years of adult life and has finnaly had enough of it!

So quickly people go to defend the bloody criminal and condem the victim!

I don't defend the criminal.
She deserves whatever sentence she gets. Kind of justifies shooting her the first time.

Doesn't make shooting her, approaching her stricken form, standing over her long enough for her to beg for her life and then choose to end her life okay.




Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[Katman]

While everyone is throwing around wild speculations, let's not forget the unborn child.

It may have grown up to be a crackhead or it may just have grown up to be someone who was of great value to society.

The old dude made sure we'll never know.

[nzspokes]

no it isn't, other wise you would go to the root cause of the situation, which is some morally corrupt inhumane piece of shit was burglurising an innocent citizen.

Agree apart from you missed the bit about them beating an 80 year old man to the ground.

[MVnut]

From personal experience in Papua New Guinea, my business partner and his wife were driving down a track (Nissan Patrol) and my mate got out to move a log across track....a native jumps comes out of the bush and gets in driver's seat and steals car with wife still in it. A hundred metres or so down the track a slow corner and she jumps out, native drives off....reported to police. A week later cops bring his Patrol back and he asks about the thief.....we shot him says the cop, we think it was him, maybe his brother or cousin............they didn't care, someone stole a car and kidnapped mate's wife so they shot whoever was with the vehicle....bush justice.....this sort of stuff works over there. And back to original story, if I was the 80 tear old I would have shot her, probably would not say a lot about it though, if she indeed was pregnant that would make absolutely no difference to me

[Flip]

I worked in Texas for Mobil. It was at the time of all the home invasion crimes here. One thing that almost never happens in Texas is a home invasion. The thugs and career criminals over there just don't do it, why because they get shot by the home owner.

Here in NZ you do not have any legal right to defend your home or your family. In the USA you do.

You have to be a desperate junky to break into a home in the US, its a real short term career choice.

[scumdog]

Yup, Murder... and thought the same thing in regards to holding her there. He could have shot her in the leg/kneecap to accomplish the not getting away thing.

Fuck off, she would have healed then come back for another go.

Probably with her spawn at foot this time.

Remove the problem - don't postpone it.

[Katman]

Fuck off, she would have healed then come back for another go.

Probably with her spawn at foot this time.

Remove the problem - don't postpone it.

You fucking suck as a cop.

[unstuck]

Yep, I was right. All humans are fucked in the head. Reading this thread just reinforces that view for me. chur.:2thumbsup

[mashman]

Who fucking cares? They're thieves. Violent ones. They had their chance and it's not actually relevant what their reason was, as of the moment they made that choice they're better off dead, and the sooner the better.

Bunched panties can't be good for the hemorrhoids. You do realise that it is society that sets up that situation in the first instance. No money, this crime would not have happened. Thanks for proving my point of view.

[mashman]

Fuck off, she would have healed then come back for another go.

Probably with her spawn at foot this time.

Remove the problem - don't postpone it.

What? To get shot again? I agree the perps ain't no rocket scientists, but revenge? Nah, they're thieving, not murdering and thieving.

lol... remember to check the buggy then.

I agree... but likely not in the way you think ;).

[Ocean1]

Bunched panties can't be good for the hemorrhoids. You do realise that it is society that sets up that situation in the first instance. No money, this crime would not have happened. Thanks for proving my point of view.

Nope, it's not society's fault, it's not money's fault it's the fault of the arsehole who did the crime.

Why bother even locking them up? 99% of those convicted of violent crime have had hundreds of chances to change their behaviour. Enough: being killed for the last one not only doesn't undo the crime it doesn't undo years of previous bullshit either. Good riddance, should have happened sooner.

[Katman]

Why bother even locking them up? 99% of those convicted of violent crime have had hundreds of chances to change their behaviour.

They "tackled him and wrestled him to the ground" - unarmed.

Get a fucking grip.

[mashman]

Nope, it's not society's fault, it's not money's fault it's the fault of the arsehole who did the crime.

Why bother even locking them up? 99% of those convicted of violent crime have had hundreds of chances to change their behaviour. Enough: being killed for the last one not only doesn't undo the crime it doesn't undo years of previous bullshit either. Good riddance, should have happened sooner.

They committed their crime for money. Nothing else. He committed his crime, well, for your reasons. Changing a person's behaviour without changing the society that allowed it to flourish in the first place is not the solution, coz you'll only ever end up with a steady stream of violent criminals. But by all means think otherwise.

[sil3nt]

While everyone is throwing around wild speculations, let's not forget the unborn child.

It may have grown up to be a crackhead or it may just have grown up to be someone who was of great value to society.

The old dude made sure we'll never know.Do you really care? Over 100,000 people die every day while there are over 200,000 births. This is an insignificant event.

[Katman]

Do you really care? Over 100,000 people die every day while there are over 200,000 births. This is an insignificant event.

In a word - no.

It was simply an observation.

[scumdog]

You fucking suck as a cop.

Bite me!:p

(For a man that spouts a lot of stuff he DOES know I was surprised at you judgement call on somebody whose work he has never observed...but this IS KB I guess:shifty:)

[Katman]

Bite me!:p

(For a man that spouts a lot of stuff he DOES know I was surprised at you judgement call on somebody whose work he has never observed...but this IS KB I guess:shifty:)

My judgement call is based on the fact that you're already on record here saying you don't give a fuck whether truth is covered up and now you're endorsing cold blooded murder.

Sounds like a fucked up attitude for a cop to publicly display.

[scumdog]

My judgement call is based on the fact that you're already on record here saying you don't give a fuck whether truth is covered up and now you're endorsing cold blooded murder.

Sounds like a fucked up attitude for a cop to publicly display.


Meh.. whatever...:rolleyes:

It's the freakin internet in case you hadn't noticed, there is no wins here sonny:lol:...

[Katman]

Meh.. whatever...:rolleyes:

It's the freakin internet in case you hadn't noticed, there is no wins here sonny:lol:...

Who's talking about wins?

I'm talking about your fucked up attitude for someone who is tasked with upholding the law.

[scumdog]

Who's talking about wins?

I'm talking about your fucked up attitude for someone who is tasked with upholding the law.

Yeah, well that's YOUR opinion...;)



Oh, and it's still the internet...a miasma of shit that doesn't count in real life.

[AllanB]

Disagree re comment of attitude/cop.

One is his career - presuming he does his job well he follows the law and enforces it accordingly.

When not working is he not entitled to his own personal opinion.



Silliest thing in the entire sorry story is the old bugger going on tape with his statement - should have shut up and he'd be painted as a hero. Heck it is not like he had any witnesses ..............

[Madness]

I'm talking about your fucked up attitude - for someone who is tasked with upholding the law.

It's a pre-requisite for joining up these days, I'm convinced of it.

[Katman]

One is his career - presuming he does his job well he follows the law and enforces it accordingly.

When not working is he not entitled to his own personal opinion.


Really? You're happy that a cop endorses murder as his personal opinion?

[AllanB]

Really? You're happy that a cop endorses murder as his personal opinion?

Murder? I did not see anything about the shooter being charged and convicted of murder or anything (yet). Be interesting to follow it up and see if he is charged and if so the result. Self defense?

Pretty sure the same cop has stated he fats around on his Harley wearing one of those skull masks - I personalty don't like them and would not expect to see police wearing them at work (be kind of cool though) but out of work he can wear what he likes.

I've seen WOF inspectors who are obviously very prejudiced against 'boy racers' (for want of a term) when inspecting their car. Few years back I was getting a wof - next in line was a very nicely kitted out ricer that was obviously the mans pride and joy - WOF inspector turned to me grinning and said 'he's failed' ......... with the condition of the car he had dropped serious coin on it and everything was probably certified.

[Katman]

Murder? I did not see anything about the shooter being charged and convicted of murder or anything (yet). Be interesting to follow it up and see if he is charged and if so the result. Self defense?


Any sane person who has read the article and watched the video can tell it was a cold blooded, unsanctioned execution. That accounts to murder in my books.

[AllanB]

To be fair he comes across somewhat redneck. But we have limited information to go on and getting involved in the Courts here through my current job the facts covering all matters are very important.

[AllanB]

And that video may have been edited to hell to make sensational TV. The actual footage may have gone -
'she screamed not to shoot I am pregnant'
'I asked her to lift her top to prove it and she did but she had a Uzi strapped to her stomach'
'So I shot her'

[scumdog]

Any sane person who has read the article and watched the video can tell it was a cold blooded, unsanctioned execution. That accounts to murder in my books.

Could have been prevented if nobody tried to rob the old bugger...

[Katman]

Could have been prevented if nobody tried to rob the old bugger...

Are you really that thick?

I'm talking about your attitude towards an execution - not the robbery itself.

[Woodman]

Any sane person who has read the article and watched the video can tell it was a cold blooded, unsanctioned execution. That accounts to murder in my books.

So you believe the media when it suits? Interesting

[Katman]

So you believe the media when it suits? Interesting

We're all basing our opinion simply on what we've read and seen - including scumdog.

[Katman]

Here's some more info.

http://news.sky.com/story/1307003/pregnant-burglar-shot-dead-by-homeowner

It appears that she might not have even been on his property when he shot her.

Self-defense? Hmmm, maybe not.

[AllanB]

Now we are getting somewhere

[scumdog]

We're all basing our opinion simply on what we've read and seen - including scumdog.

Sorta like you base your opinion on me????:msn-wink:

[Katman]

Sorta like you base your opinion on me????:msn-wink:

Exactly - I base my opinion of you on the words you present as your opinion.

[Flip]

All I see is an aged man defending his right not to be robbed and beaten.

Good on the old guy. In this had heppened in NZ we would all be wringing our hands about another home invasion.

[Katman]

In this had heppened in NZ.....

Do you really wish to be more like America?

There's a reason why most of the world hates them.

[buggerit]

So they had possibly robbed him twice already and beaten and broken his collarbone, maybe he decided if he did not do something he may not
survive next time.

[Katman]

So they had possibly robbed him twice already and beaten and broken his collarbone, maybe he decided if he did not do something he may not
survive next time.

So he chased her down and executed her.

[Flip]

Do you really wish to be more like America?

There's a reason why most of the world hates them.

It's much easier to beat and rob old people when they don't have guns, isn't it?

[Katman]

It's much easier to beat and rob old people when they don't have guns, isn't it?

Dude, I only pick the blind ones.

It's easier to discredit their testimony.

[Flip]

Dude, I only pick the blind ones.

It's easier to discredit their testimony.

We what is reported by "the media" is of no use in a court of law, its purley for the purpose of entertainment.

There is not a court in the US that would convict a pensioner of shooting a burgular espcially after a beating.

[buggerit]

Dude, I only pick the blind ones.

It's easier to discredit their testimony.

As long as they don't shoot you dead aye.

[Katman]

We what is reported by "the media" is of no use in a court of law, its purley for the purpose of entertainment.

There is not a court in the US that would convict a pensioner of shooting a burgular espcially after a beating.

Refer post #151.

[Katman]

As long as they don't shoot you dead aye.

Come on man, giving guns to blind old people is just downright dangerous.

[Ocean1]

They "tackled him and wrestled him to the ground" - unarmed.

Get a fucking grip.

And assault isn't violent crime on your planet?

[Katman]

And assault isn't violent crime on your planet?

Not worthy of execution at least.

[oneblackflag]

"She was dead. I shot her twice, she best be dead." FTW! :niceone:

Gold star + a chocky fish.

He may be a cold blooded murderer but at least he's honest.

[Woodman]

Isn't "breaking the cycle" a good thing??

[Ocean1]

They committed their crime for money. Nothing else. He committed his crime, well, for your reasons. Changing a person's behaviour without changing the society that allowed it to flourish in the first place is not the solution, coz you'll only ever end up with a steady stream of violent criminals. But by all means think otherwise.

So they'd have left the jewellery alone eh? Wanker.

You've got a steady stream of violent criminals because they've learned that behaviour pays dividends. No other reason. So yes, society needs to change in order to prevent such behaviour flourishing, it needs to teach the thieving cunts that they'll probably be caught and the outcome will be a fucking sight less pleasant than any other choice they might have made.

[Ocean1]

Not worthy of execution at least.

He obviously disagreed.

And as he was the one taking a hiding at the time it probably slipped his mind to check with you to see if it was OK.

[Katman]

He obviously disagreed.

And as he was the one taking a hiding at the time it probably slipped his mind to check with you to see if it was OK.

Did it look like he'd taken a hiding?

He was clearly well enough to chase after them.

[oneblackflag]

Not worthy of execution at least.


He obviously disagreed.


Bit rude not to warn them about his Three strikes and you're dead policy :oi-grr:

[mashman]

So they'd have left the jewellery alone eh? Wanker.

You've got a steady stream of violent criminals because they've learned that behaviour pays dividends. No other reason. So yes, society needs to change in order to prevent such behaviour flourishing, it needs to teach the thieving cunts that they'll probably be caught and the outcome will be a fucking sight less pleasant than any other choice they might have made.

Doesn't jewellery turn into money?

Yup, it does pay dividends... therefore if there were no dividend, that behaviour wouldn't exist. Oh it's that easy huh... just teach them right from wrong and all will be sweet? 99% of the time criminals violent criminals are not violent criminals, they're normal human beings having interactions with other normal human beings. You need to remove the dividend in order to remove the behaviour.

[Ocean1]

Did it look like he'd taken a hiding?

He was clearly well enough to chase after them.

Oh, so 'cause they weren't doing a real good job of it he shoulda just let it slide? Like maybe give them a stern talking too?

Fuck off, if you start that shit you have no right to complain if you get your arse handed to you by an old man. Letting it slide is what caused the problem in the first place.

[Ocean1]

Doesn't jewellery turn into money?

Yup, it does pay dividends... therefore if there were no dividend, that behaviour wouldn't exist. Oh it's that easy huh... just teach them right from wrong and all will be sweet? 99% of the time criminals violent criminals are not violent criminals, they're normal human beings having interactions with other normal human beings. You need to remove the dividend in order to remove the behaviour.

Most things turn into money if the price is right. But most thieves don't bother, they just steal shit they want. So no money, no change, you still have thieves.

And yes, teach them as kids and all would be sweet.

Nope, 100% of violent criminals are violent criminals, fuck all normal about it.

And that's what I said. Remove the dividend by catching the arseholes in the act and teaching them that it's more hassle than it's worth. Glad something's getting through you're all but impenetrable ignorance.

[Katman]

And that's what I said. Remove the dividend by catching the arseholes in the act and teaching them that it's more hassle than it's worth. Glad something's getting through you're all but impenetrable ignorance.

Carte blanche executions don't sound like a civilised society to me.

[AllanB]

I'm waiting on the movie. I hear Clint Eastwood is going to star as the 'old man with no-name'

The poster is out already.

[Ocean1]

Carte blanche executions don't sound like a civilised society to me.

Who said anything about carte blanche?

Open season on violent criminals is a great way to ensure civilised society remains that way.

[Katman]

Who said anything about carte blanche?

Open season on violent criminals is a great way to ensure civilised society remains that way.

So I suppose it's where one draws the line in 'violent criminals'.

And who's drawing the line.

Does someone losing a fight get to shoot the other?

[AllanB]

I was thinking of this post and the things that have changed over a short number of decades,

Colour acceptance (OK still being worked on but hell there has been progress)

Gay acceptance

Sexual equality


Maybe the next thing will be acceptance of criminals - all that needs to happen is some boffin prove a certain type of person is born more susceptible to being a crim and they can start a movement for discrimination against criminals.

Feck they are halfway there - they can vote and get married ........

[oneblackflag]

Gay acceptance.

Would of thought there was more work to be done on that than colour.... You ride with alot of fellow 'Honda enthusiasts'?

[Ocean1]

So I suppose it's where one draws the line in 'violent criminals'.

And who's drawing the line.

Does someone losing a fight get to shoot the other?

It's not fucking badminton, there's no "level playing field" required.

If you assault someone and end up dead then the world is a better place. Say thank you, old dude.

[Katman]

It's not fucking badminton, there's no "level playing field" required.

If you assault someone and end up dead then the world is a better place. Say thank you, old dude.

Where does one draw the line in 'assault'?

Getting pushed out of the line of a queue?

[scumdog]

It's not fucking badminton, there's no "level playing field" required.

If you assault someone and end up dead then the world is a better place. Say thank you, old dude.

Would kinda stop assaults I guess...

Then some commie pinko whale hugging tree saver soft cock would whinge it wasn't really assault, oh my, calamity!

[Ocean1]

Where does one draw the line in 'assault'?

Getting pushed out of line of a queue?

One reads one's country's fucking rulebook: http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1961/0043/latest/DLM327382.html

I'm pretty sure you get special bonus points for declining to be assaulted with extra enthusiasm on your own property.

Dude, there's nowhere to go with this, the bad people ended up dead. Good outcome. Hooray.

[Katman]

Dude, there's nowhere to go with this, the bad people ended up dead. Good outcome. Hooray.

Here's the thing. I don't give a fuck about the dead woman either.

I'm concerned about the message it gives that people have the right to execute others based on their perception of what constitutes 'assault'.

[Ocean1]

Here's the thing. I don't give a fuck about the dead woman either.

I'm concerned about the message it gives that people have the right to execute others based on their perception of what constitutes 'assault'.

I'm more concerned about the message criminals committing what their country's law says constitutes assault and invariably getting away scot free gives to other criminals.

And now that you know what the law has to say about it you won't have to tax your intelligence when and if you find yourself deciding whether to defend yourself or not.

[PrincessBandit]

Not worthy of execution at least.

Quicker than the botched lethal injection execution the other day though.

[mashman]

Most things turn into money if the price is right. But most thieves don't bother, they just steal shit they want. So no money, no change, you still have thieves.

And yes, teach them as kids and all would be sweet.

Nope, 100% of violent criminals are violent criminals, fuck all normal about it.

And that's what I said. Remove the dividend by catching the arseholes in the act and teaching them that it's more hassle than it's worth. Glad something's getting through you're all but impenetrable ignorance.

That is more than evident. You carry on believing that, but the existence of the black market would beg to differ.

Many parents do. Many parents kids use their own discernment for better or worse. The upbringing guarantees nothing.

Aha, I'm surprised that they're not harder to spot if they're walking around the street like

http://www.picgifs.com/clip-art/cartoons/tasmanian-devil/clip-art-tasmanian-devil-885971.jpg

You can't catch 'em all... and I doubt that's because there is no want to catch the bad guys. I wish I could say the same of your impenetrable ignorance, but, well, yeah.

[scumdog]

Quicker than the botched lethal injection execution the other day though.

If the sentenced and condemned idiot ends up dead it's never 'botched'. - particularly if it's this individual. :yes:

[mashman]

Would kinda stop assaults I guess...

Then some commie pinko whale hugging tree saver soft cock would whinge it wasn't really assault, oh my, calamity!

:killingme aye, like the death penalty has stopped people from killing.

If I were a lawyer I'd be highly offended by that statement.

[scumdog]

:killingme aye, like the death penalty has stopped people from killing.

If I were a lawyer I'd be highly offended by that statement.

Well it certainly stopped them killing any more!!:bleh:

[mashman]

Well it certainly stopped them killing any more!!:bleh:

Only if you catch them :shifty:

[scumdog]

Only if you catch them :shifty:

Well they did in the 'botched' case - and that's what counts - kill the fuckers you DO catch.

[husaberg]

"She was dead. I shot her twice, she best be dead." FTW! :niceone:

Gold star + a chocky fish.

He may be a cold blooded murderer but at least he's honest.

this post here it was in the media report as well but in the video
he was asked along the lines of was he sure he killed her/if she was dead.
"He said I Shot her twice she best be dead" I think I was meaning to say more I shot her twice she better be dead.
In America everyone is armed the criminals, the honest citizen's and the police, ergo people get shot.
I say the old American coot was, shit scared, had a gun and protected himself as best as he could, given the situation.
Shit a few weeks a go a report into a police shooting in NZ suggested that, even though the person pointed a shotgun at a policemen, he shouldn't have shot him....... because the car should have pulled up behind him or something.
Which is pc horseshit...... the policeman would likely, not have shot him if he had not pointed a shotgun at him, the rest is irrelevant.

[Ocean1]

Drivel.

Nope, no amount of your usual nonsensical bullshit makes crime anyone's fault except criminals.

[mashman]

Nope, no amount of your usual nonsensical bullshit makes crime anyone's fault except criminals.

I rest my case.

[caspernz]

Mmmm, interesting to read how many KBers seem intent on defending the "rights" of the offenders in this instance.

First off, do we know all the facts of this case? Doubt it.

Has the media cherry picked the juicy sound bites and lines to give it their own sensationalist slant? Of course.

Does it seem like the old fella shooting the intruder (her being pregnant means squat to me) appear tantamount to an execution? Yep. Do I care? Nope. If you break in and assault the home occupant whatever comes your way is part of the deal.

My home, my castle. Storm the walls and (if I'm able to) you won't be walking out. If that's an issue with anyone...:doh:

[awa355]

On the Fox news this morning. Looks like the cops are having another look at the shooting. Appears the woman may not have been pregnant. Not that that makes any difference to the legality of the shooting.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/07/25/man-80-may-be-charged-after-shooting-burglar-who-falsely-claimed-was-pregnant/

[nzspokes]

On the Fox news this morning. Looks like the cops are having another look at the shooting. Appears the woman may not have been pregnant. Not that that makes any difference to the legality of the shooting.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/07/25/man-80-may-be-charged-after-shooting-burglar-who-falsely-claimed-was-pregnant/

So turns out he had been injured and these scum had broken into his house 3 times.

And she was not pregnant.

[nzspokes]

First nobody has confirmed that she was pregnant!

Second we do not know how many times this man has been robbed, invaded or beaten in his 60 years of adult life and has finnaly had enough of it!

So quickly people go to defend the bloody criminal and condem the victim!

You were bang on.

[Kickaha]

and these scum had broken into his house 3 times.
Suspecting they have and knowing they have are two different things

[Katman]

You were bang on.

Yeah, clearly the bitch deserved a third cap for lying.

[Katman]

And just so we're all clear, I'd have very little concern if the woman had been shot and killed during the course of a struggle.

But anyone who suggests that the old guy was fighting for his life (or even had reason to fear for his life) when he chases an unarmed couple out into an alleyway, shoots one person in the back then approaches her and kills her while she's pleading for her life, is seriously fucked in the head.

[Katman]

Not a lot different to this case really.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/1399650/Emery-jailed-for-killing-tagger

[Flip]

And just so we're all clear, I'd have very little concern if the woman had been shot and killed during the course of a struggle.

But anyone who suggests that the old guy was fighting for his life (or even had reason to fear for his life) when he chases an unarmed couple out into an alleyway, shoots one person in the back then approaches her and kills her while she's pleading for her life, is seriously fucked in the head.

Very little to none, the criminals were excaping after a home invasion. IMHO If you invade somebodys home, assult the 80 year old owner and get shot in the process of excaping its your tough cheese.

Home owner 1, criminal 0.

I suppose in your demented world anybody can walk into your home, knock you down and there is nothing you can do to stop them taking your valuables?

[Madness]

You were bang on.

You really are a fuckwit.

[nzspokes]

Not a lot different to this case really.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/1399650/Emery-jailed-for-killing-tagger

Not even close. The tagger just painted a fence. These two entered his home and beat the old fella down and broke his collarbone.

[Kickaha]

I suppose in your demented world anybody can walk into your home, knock you down and there is nothing you can do to stop them taking your valuables?

Did you fail reading and comprehension at school? what part of this don't you understand?


And just so we're all clear, I'd have very little concern if the woman had been shot and killed during the course of a struggle.

[AllanB]

burglarized

Is that even a word? Should it not state he had been burgled three times not burglarized three times? Now here is the real crime.

And while on it that fucking term 'get-go' as in 'from the get-go' from the what I ask, oh 'from the start' :facepalm:

[Madness]

Now here is the real crime.

Actually, I reckon this bit here takes the cake...


Gus Adams, 26, her suspected accomplice, was later booked on suspicion of residential burglary and murder...

[Katman]

Actually, I reckon this bit here takes the cake...

Exactly. If the male accomplice is able to be charged with 'murder' then surely it makes sense that the person who actually committed the 'murder' should be charged as well.

[bogan]

So turns out he had been injured and these scum had broken into his house 3 times.

And she was not pregnant.

So adding to spoke's long list of capital offenses, lying about pregnancy.

Here's a more relevant point

"The problem here is that all this happens very fast and his legal right to use force probably ended just a few seconds before he did use deadly force. So the question is should you charge somebody on the basis of what really was a series of split-second decisions when he's just been robbed and physically assaulted?"

[mada]

So I take it for those who support what the old guy did:

if Tony Veitch's ex after being bashed, had pulled out a gun and shot him in the back while he was running away or after he saw it and begged for his life it would be all good??

[Big Dog]

So I take it for those who support what the old guy did:

if Tony Veitch's ex after being bashed, had pulled out a gun and shot him in the back while he was running away or after he saw it and begged for his life it would be all good??

You are kidding right? This is KB, all gun play is AOK.
Ding a ding ding ding... Ding.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[scumdog]

Yeah, clearly the bitch deserved a third cap for lying.

NOW you're talkin'!:Punk:

[bogan]

This is KB, all gun play is AOK.
Ding a ding ding ding... Ding.

Anyone for Solitaire Russian Roulette? Bet ya can't get to level 6 :whistle:

[PrincessBandit]

I have always believed that people should be able to feel safe in their own homes, and don't know how I'd respond to a violent intruder. My guess is I'd (metaphorically) shoot first ask questions later. I wouldn't be worried about gauging "reasonable force" against an aggressive trespasser.
Here, you'd be charged automatically (?) with manslaughter at the very least if you killed one. In the States, with their gun-loving culture, it seems to be a more likely outcome with unclear consequences.

[sidecar bob]

Gettin fucked up by an angry home owner while doing a home invasion is an occupational hazard that surely must have been taken into account before doing the job, much like banging your thumb with a hammer if youre a builder. Bitch needs to take it on the chin & suck it up, oh hang on, she cant because shes dead, but that was not an entirely unexpected outcome.

[Katman]

My guess is I'd (metaphorically) shoot first ask questions later. I wouldn't be worried about gauging "reasonable force" against an aggressive trespasser.


I very much doubt you'd chase them out into an alley to gun them down though.

[sil3nt]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgmnIJF07kg
Better do this guy for Assault :rolleyes:

[unstuck]

Better do this guy for Assault :rolleyes:

:headbang::headbang::headbang:

[Ocean1]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/10319030/Man-critical-after-allegedly-invading-home

:niceone:

[imdying]

Burglarised three times, this making it four. The pair of them beat him and left him for dead, her finishing him off, then went to work on his safe. The only crime here is that he didn't kill both of them. If she didn't want to be shot, she shouldn't have broken into his home, beat him to the ground when confronted, and then continued stealing his shit. Very simple.

[Flip]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/10319030/Man-critical-after-allegedly-invading-home

:niceone:

This man (the home owner) deserves a beer. Good on him.

Or should we all be winy namby pambys and be concerned that the criminal was injured?

[ellipsis]

...if the old cunt had a proper gun... a .45, say and took her head off, there would have been no story...would have saved pages of internet drivel...leave .22 handguns to Mossad...

[avgas]

...if the old cunt had a proper gun... a .45, say and took her head off, there would have been no story...would have saved pages of internet drivel...leave .22 handguns to Mossad...
Here you go hero - got some cool photos for you http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/f10/gunshot-wound-deaths-100661/

[avgas]

On the Fox news this morning. Looks like the cops are having another look at the shooting. Appears the woman may not have been pregnant. Not that that makes any difference to the legality of the shooting.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/07/25/man-80-may-be-charged-after-shooting-burglar-who-falsely-claimed-was-pregnant/
Or anything.
She could have just said that just to not get killed. Much like the old guy probably cried he was a defenseless old man and begged for his life when they attacked him.

Turns out offering mercy to him was the dumbest that bitch could have done. Turns out - he wasn't defenseless, and he had a taste for the fine wine that is revenge.

[ellipsis]

Here you go hero - /[/url]

...I'm just filling in for Smokey...he doesn't seem to have been around of late...gore...(not where Unstuck lives)... been desensitized to it for a long while now, along with shit that's happening in other places, shit we cant do a fucking thing about, including, war, greed, mindlessness...life's too short...

[avgas]

...I'm just filling in for Smokey...he doesn't seem to have been around of late...gore...(not where Unstuck lives)... been desensitized to it for a long while now, along with shit that's happening in other places, shit we cant do a fucking thing about, including, war, greed, mindlessness...life's too short...
Seeing a murdered person does things to you.
If your reaction was "Yeah! They deserved it"................chances are you would have put them in that place if you had a chance.

As mentioned earlier - the old dude wanted to go out like an old western. Guns a blazin.

No one told him that there are no dead heroes. Just bodies.

[unstuck]

shit that's happening in other places, shit we cant do a fucking thing about, including, war, greed, mindlessness...life's too short...

Now your talking, there is great wisdom in that statement. The more people keep focusing on shit that does not concern or effect them, the more you keep it going.
The war on drugs......you get more drugs. The war on terrorism........you get more terrorism. The more you are against something, the more you keep it going.:Punk::Punk:

[Akzle]

Now your talking, there is great wisdom in that statement. The more people keep focusing on shit that does not concern or effect them, the more you keep it going.
The war on drugs......you get more drugs. The war on terrorism........you get more terrorism. The more you are against something, the more you keep it going.:Punk::Punk:

... Makes the world go around, the world go around, a mark or yen a buck or a pound, the world goes around

[Big Dog]

The year might change but not the actions of ferals.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/07/02/gun-toting-home-invaders-bust-down-doors-go-for-moms-purse-but-her-son-is-much-better-armed/


Sent via tapatalk.

[Akzle]

The year might change but not the actions of ferals.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/07/02/gun-toting-home-invaders-bust-down-doors-go-for-moms-purse-but-her-son-is-much-better-armed/


Sent via tapatalk.

see meow, if that had happened in nz, he would have had his firearms taken off him, had to pay the burglars conpensation for emotional trauma and been sentenced to community service scrubbing blood off the streets.


Some things, (very fuken few) 'merca (hoo rah) gets so right.

[Banditbandit]

The year might change but not the actions of ferals.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/07/02/gun-toting-home-invaders-bust-down-doors-go-for-moms-purse-but-her-son-is-much-better-armed/


Sent via tapatalk.

And they got what was coming to them ... Good shit ..

[husaberg]

And they got what was coming to them ... Good shit ..

Bloody lucky they never had an RPG, I guess.

[Swoop]

The year might change but not the actions of ferals.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/07/02/gun-toting-home-invaders-bust-down-doors-go-for-moms-purse-but-her-son-is-much-better-armed/

I love a happy ending!

[Robbo]

Beaten with a taste of their own medicine. Bloody good job. :ar15:

[Big Dog]

I see the male intruder was doa at the E.R. I wonder how long these geniuses left it before they thought they ought too seek treatment?

The good news for the surviving feral, she will face felony murder charges because someone died as a result of her participation in a felony that resulted in a death... if the state she lives in decides to press that particular charge.

Sent via tapatalk.

[scumdog]

see meow, if that had happened in nz, he would have had his firearms taken off him, had to pay the burglars conpensation for emotional trauma and been sentenced to community service scrubbing blood off the streets.


Some things, (very fuken few) 'merca (hoo rah) gets so right.

You haven't even got a glass let alone one to be half empty, have you??? :oi-grr:

[TheDemonLord]

You haven't even got a glass let alone one to be half empty, have you??? :oi-grr:

$10 says that the response will be:

"The Jews took my glass"

or something to that effect.

[Akzle]

You haven't even got a glass let alone one to be half empty, have you??? :oi-grr:

the jews took my glass

[scumdog]

the jews took my glass

Bullshit.!

You never even had one to start with!<_<

[caseye]

Bullshit.!

You never even had one to start with!<_<

He's poa OK?

[husaberg]

He's poa OK?

http://cdn.someecards.com/someecards/usercards/im-not-saying-he-has-a-small-penis-im-just-saying-if-you-painted-it-black-silver-you-might-mistake-it-for-a-aaa-battery-e7e67.png

[FJRider]

the jews took my glass

Blame your OWN family ... they are jewish after all ... <_<

[husaberg]

Blame your OWN family ... they are jewish after all ... <_<

No that was the dude his misses left with...........She had Double D's, he Axhole was just a AAA
He also blames the Jews because if he had a foreskin it his member would be three times as long as it is now.
So he feels a little short changed.

[Laava]

Blame your OWN family ... they are jewish after all ... <_<

Haha! He is a white middle aged jewish aucklander!

[husaberg]

Haha! He is a white middle aged jewish aucklander!

With a goat fetish and no bike.....................................

[FJRider]

Haha! He is a BLACK middle aged jewish aucklander!

There ... fixed it for you ... :niceone:

[FJRider]

With a goat fetish and no bike.....................................

He still has a bike ... it was a suzuki ... not now running though ... but such is expected from older suzukis ..

[husaberg]

There ... fixed it for you ... :niceone:

He's not black. He's whiter than John Key hairdresser and three times as fruity.


He still has a bike ... it was a suzuki ... not now running though ... but such is expected from older suzukis ..

Didn't he trade it for a Saanen buck and a bag of sawdust.

[FJRider]

He's not black, he's ass backwards.

Same thing ... in'it .. ?? :shifty:

[husaberg]

He's here and he has Wood so hide the goats................

[Katman]

<img src="http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/article10162240.ece/alternates/w620/humancentipede.jpg"/>