The GST con story

[R650R]

Notice all the stories in the media recently about how not paying GST on low cost private imports is hurting retailers, they cant compete etc....
Think about the maths for a second, a mere 15% difference in price plus the cost of international shipping and we're only talking about goods under say $400
And most of the time its likely a small purchase of say one or two books or computer game etc so price range $35-$100

Now lets pause to remember WHY we have GST in the first place. It was because the govt removed or lowered most import taxes and tariffs ages ago and shifted it from the importer/retailer paying the tax to the consumer paying the tax. And lets remember that business claim back the GST they pay on their electric bills, rent, staff tea coffe and milk etc where as joe blow consumer still has to pay that!
And in all those pre internet years did the retailers pass on those savings from reduced import levies or did they keep their prices the same and cream it...

I think whats happening is the stage is being set for a low price sub $400 instant import levy to be paid to compensate and it will be slapped on regardless of goods value, whether its a $35 dollar book or a $300 tyre.
Sounds fair but really its just more consumer dollars sucked up by taxman and less money left to spend at kiwi businesses.

We need to stand up and say we're sick of being screwed over multiple times tax wise. All these different things do is disguise how much the govt takes off us. And look at the massive lost producitivty absorbed just by the acco8unting time and costs in administering GST and all the paperwork etc.

The reality is the little mom and pop style store cant compete with modern big business, its not really about the big place being off shore. Butcher shops are being beaten down by supermarkets but the supermarkets still charge GST on their goods. And to me this is the same as whitcoulls vs the big overseas book sellers online, the gst component is irrelevant to the overall cost structure.
If we took GST off goods and increased income tax by 15% to 40% it would be the same but they'd be riots as people realise how much we are taxed...

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11302869

[bluninja]

So if you are a business and you claim back your GST for all the operating and capital expense items....does it go into your pocket? or do you just send less GST to "the man". All this offshore internet purchasing is just the same as tradespeople doing "off the books" or "cash in hand" work. The same work being done, but 15% cheaper because there's no GST and the person doing the work gets more in their pocket cos the taxman can't tax it. Like people don't want to save $20-30 for no extra effort on their part for the same product or service :baby:

[Voltaire]

So if you are a business and you claim back your GST for all the operating and capital expense items....does it go into your pocket? or do you just send less GST to "the man". All this offshore internet purchasing is just the same as tradespeople doing "off the books" or "cash in hand" work. The same work being done, but 15% cheaper because there's no GST and the person doing the work gets more in their pocket cos the taxman can't tax it. Like people don't want to save $20-30 for no extra effort on their part for the same product or service :baby:

Probably better the Tradesman puts the money back into the economy directly than let the retards in Wellington squander it.:banana:

Generally buying from overseas is way better than just the GST savings, I would not mind paying the GST but they stick other charges on and then add GST to that too. :nono:

[scrivy]

Or we could just buy everything off shore, and save bundles.........
Then we'll have no need for stores in NZ.....
Then we'll have higher unemployment.....
Then we'll have no one left to be able to buy stuff at all.....

I see it as a pointless exercise really, the cheaper we get stuff for from overseas, the more people will be out of work in NZ. And if people think they aren't indirectly affected by international purchases, then think again.
If my business goes belly up, then I'm not going to use your services. Simple really. It is a snowballing effect. Less business transactions, less businesses stay afloat, less services for their communities etc.

But you are right regarding big/little businesses.
The big guys are deliberately squashing the little guys. I've had alot of suppliers take off discounts that were on offer to me for the last 14 years, due to 'pressure' from the 'big boys' wanting a better buying price than independents. Doesn't the Commerce Commission enforce that the consumer is to get the best price? How can a little guy compete with the big guys when you don't pay the same wholesale price??
I run at a reasonable markup - (almost enough to live on), but I have alot of my items at lower prices than say the Warehouse. BUT, I pay more than them on alot of products. So how much markup do they need?? For example, I sold an item for $1.99, I went to the red shed to check their prices, and low and behold, they were $6.99!! So I put my price up to $3.99. People are slowly catching on to the fact that the red sheds are not that cheap now, and also that Briscoes have massively over inflated prices just to offer 30-60% discounts.
The playing field needs to be level to offer the best prices to the consumers.

It's the 'off the books' income that is hurting NZ. Imagine if the goobermint had tax on another 5 billion of legit sales. Maybe we could have a reduction in tax?????? (Yeah right), but we should at least have better services as a result.......

[Scuba_Steve]

They could add GST to all imports, would I still buy from overseas? Absolutely!
Dependant on the product there's still MASSIVE saving to be had by going international; especially in the likes of automotive, tools/hardware, media etc same would be said for clothes, shoes etc too if it weren't for those stupid levies

[Mike.Gayner]

Or we could just buy everything off shore, and save bundles.........
Then we'll have no need for stores in NZ.....
Then we'll have higher unemployment.....
Then we'll have no one left to be able to buy stuff at all.....

I see it as a pointless exercise really, the cheaper we get stuff for from overseas, the more people will be out of work in NZ. And if people think they aren't indirectly affected by international purchases, then think again.
If my business goes belly up, then I'm not going to use your services. Simple really. It is a snowballing effect. Less business transactions, less businesses stay afloat, less services for their communities etc.

Most people I know who buy things from overseas, myself included, understand this sentiment. But NZ retailers are taking the piss with their margins on some items.

[swarfie]

I don't know how anyone would want to buy anything at Briscoes when they don't have a sale on and I even baulk at buying there full stop. There's better deals to be had at some of the smaller places (bit of a punt for you there Scrivy :cool:). When the Redshed came to Cambridge a few years ago they squeezed some of the other smaller shops out of business and that's unfortunately what they do. It's also not fair the way the wholesalers/importers give larger places better buy in prices either. It really makes it hard for smaller outfits to compete and survive. I don't do 'cashies' too much, I'd rather barter for my skills that way it's a win win for both parties. Not that I want to do that too much either as Iv'e generally got too much to keep my own bikes going.

[Voltaire]

[QUOTE=scrivy;1130754147]Or we could just buy everything off shore, and save bundles.........
Then we'll have no need for stores in NZ.....
Then we'll have higher unemployment.....
Then we'll have no one left to be able to buy stuff at all.....

QUOTE]

I'll play along.
Bring back the days when a few guys had the import licence and you had to pay whatever they wanted.
It was like East Germany here before the mid 80's
Before that you had that stupid " overseas funds" lark.
That's where a lot of " the old money " was made.
Look at the food Duopoly ....if I could get my groceries off the net I would.:rolleyes:
I had the discounts discussion with my Electrical Wholesaler when I was a self employed sparkie/heat pump installer.
" Why can I get cable cheaper at Bunnings?"
" Ummmm.....er...."
Eventually I was able to source most of my materials cheaper elsewhere.
Clearly still good margins in plumbing and electrical supplies.

[JimO]

Most people I know who buy things from overseas, myself included, understand this sentiment. But NZ retailers are taking the piss with their margins on some items.
i bet the cunts use all that money to pay their staff, rent on buildings etc, greedy cunts

[Madness]

Some people should just stick to driving trucks.

[Rhys]

I bet The people whinging about the cost of NZ products are also complaining about wanting a pay rise

[mrchips]

I've bought heaps of stuff on-line & service has been exceptional. I couldn't find the stuff i needed here in NZ so any amount of GST will not change that.

NZ shops only stock what the general populus know of & demand.

The world wide interweb is a wonderfull thing :woohoo:

[R650R]

So if you are a business and you claim back your GST for all the operating and capital expense items....does it go into your pocket? or do you just send less GST to "the man
Generally most businesses are collecting the GST on behalf of the govt and its more than what they would claim on their own gst expenditure. But still here we have business not paying a certain tax but private individuals do.


All this offshore internet purchasing is just the same as tradespeople doing "off the books" or "cash in hand" work. The same work being done, but 15% cheaper because there's no GST and the person doing the work gets more in their pocket cos the taxman can't tax it.

That's another unmeasureable generalisation. I think the black economy is over stated for several reasons.
1) there's so many self righteous stasi out there now that will dob you in to authorities for doing cash jobs
2) Most of these type tradies will be semi retired and not doing a heap of jobs, btw GST does not need to be charged if your turnover is less than 60k a year.
3) that tradie is prob getting less in their pocket as 'doing a cheapie' you cant be charging the full monty rates anyway.
4) An off the books operation wouldn't e able to issue legitimate Tax Invoices for the work done which would severaly limit them to only servicing private individuals.

Just look at the Asian countries where small business people thrive, very little govt intervention and beauracrcacy...

[jasonu]

If there wasn't a public holiday that the employer has to pay his workers not to work (and thus not to produce profit for the company) every fucking week then I bet local stuff would be cheaper.

[R650R]

If there wasn't a public holiday that the employer has to pay his workers not to work (and thus not to produce profit for the company) every fucking week then I bet local stuff would be cheaper.

No it prob wouldn't. That's a bit like the we pay for shoplifters line.
Supply and demand, businesses will charge as much as the consumer will tolerate.

[jellywrestler]

It's the 'off the books' income that is hurting NZ. Imagine if the goobermint had tax on another 5 billion of legit sales. Maybe we could have a reduction in tax?????? (Yeah right), but we should at least have better services as a result.......

yeah they'd go out and buy more speed cameras!!!

[jellywrestler]

When the Redshed came to Cambridge a few years ago they squeezed some of the other smaller shops out of business and that's unfortunately what they do.

When it came to Taumaranui sure there were businesses that suffered, but it put a stop to a lot of people going to taupo to do all their shopping, including groceries they then spent all their money in town and some businesses got betterer.
I'll buy local if i can out of principle, but a lot of people only see the coin they saved in cold hard cash, not the bits Scurvy was mentioning and it's probably that we run our own businesses that we see it that way.
Question
Whe's the last time you saw a New Zealand Made Logo? why aren't people proud to put it there, why aren't shops/supermarkets having a special stand with NZ made products, even to the point of showing a pie graph of the retail price of both nz made and imported goods and showing just how much coin goes out of NZ.

[bluninja]

Question
Whe's the last time you saw a New Zealand Made Logo? why aren't people proud to put it there, why aren't shops/supermarkets having a special stand with NZ made products, even to the point of showing a pie graph of the retail price of both nz made and imported goods and showing just how much coin goes out of NZ.

I find NZ quite jingoistic; hey you do know that Mitre10 is new Zealand owned and run? :rolleyes: Any product that has any link to NZ is marketed as such ...."designed by NZers",....etc.

Though when you say NZ made what does it mean? If I buy electronic components from China and assemble them into a Desktop PC is it New Zealand made or produced? If I have leather motorcycle gear cut and stitched in Pakistan from NZ leather (yeah I know it's a stretch....pun intended) is it an NZ product?

[Icemaestro]

And why buy products here that the NZ company has just imported from the same person (though paid less shipping due to order size) and then slapped 100% (or more!) markup on? I bought a set of aftermarket mirrors off ebay a couple of weeks ago, same mould stamp from the maker in China as the ones in a shop in nz, but 13$ delivered, as opposed to 60$ for me to drive and pick it up (thats if it was in stock, as their website is usually incorrect).

[avgas]

People importing their own stuff from overseas is fine. People buying local and paying a tiny 15% is fine.
The whole thing is fine. People have successful business, and others are buying stuff cheaper on a smaller scale. Everyone wins. Nothing needs to change.

The only people who are rattling the cage are the ones with an agenda. Or need an excuse.
Think about it.

[Akzle]

i was told today that 'people work really hard for their money' and 'they like the economoney', but then go and buy the cheapest shit they can get at bunnings, made in china and shit, and they're all like, 'waa-waa, i can't afford to buy shit made in nz' and i'm all like 'bitch please' and punch them in the mouf.



We need to stand up and say we're sick of being screwed over multiple times

get real you fucking sheep.

[FJRider]

Notice all the stories in the media recently about how not paying GST on low cost private imports is hurting retailers, they cant compete etc....
Think about the maths for a second, a mere 15% difference in price plus the cost of international shipping and we're only talking about goods under say $400
And most of the time its likely a small purchase of say one or two books or computer game etc so price range $35-$100

Low cost imports (usually) don't attract import duty. GST is only added to Goods and Services bought in New Zealand.

Internet purchases are effectively "Overseas" purchases.

Retailers that import container/ship loads of products will expect to pay the required duty ... no escaping that fact.

If retailers continue to attempt to sell products that can/are bought online cheaper than commercially sold in NZ (in increasing numbers) ... silly them.


Now lets pause to remember WHY we have GST in the first place. It was because the govt removed or lowered most import taxes and tariffs ages ago and shifted it from the importer/retailer paying the tax to the consumer paying the tax.

Actually it was introduced in the "Rogernomics" economic reforms of the Labour Government in '86 .... to boost the budget after they inherited a very large deficit from the previous Government.

[QUOTE=R650R;1130754130]I think whats happening is the stage is being set for a low price sub $400 instant import levy to be paid to compensate and it will be slapped on regardless of goods value,

There are enough conspiricy theories already ... any facts to back up this claim .... ???


We need to stand up and say we're sick of being screwed over multiple times tax wise. All these different things do is disguise how much the govt takes off us. And look at the massive lost producitivty absorbed just by the acco8unting time and costs in administering GST and all the paperwork etc.

If they want to "Claim Back" their GST .... such is life (and they know it) ... if it wasn't worth the effort they wouldn't bother.


The reality is the little mom and pop style store cant compete with modern big business

If you buy in bulk ... you CAN sell cheaper (in bulk numbers). The smaller shops sell with a good profit. Supermarkets don't usually have a big mark up on individual products .. but make the money on sheer bulk numbers of products sold.


If we took GST off goods and increased income tax by 15% to 40% it would be the same but they'd be riots as people realise how much we are taxed...


Increased income tax by 15% is not the same as 15% added to Goods and Services. Not all your income is used for GST attached products ... is it .. ???

[Akzle]

2) Most of these type tradies will be semi retired and not doing a heap of jobs, btw GST does not need to be charged if your turnover is less than 60k a year.

yeah, but then they can't claim back the GST, the coffees, cocaine, the rent, the broadband, the whores, the fuel...

[bogan]

I think whats happening is the stage is being set for a low price sub $400 instant import levy to be paid to compensate and it will be slapped on regardless of goods value, whether its a $35 dollar book or a $300 tyre.
Sounds fair but really its just more consumer dollars sucked up by taxman and less money left to spend at kiwi businesses.

I think Robert may have had an irony implosion when he read that, might be why he hasn't joined in yet.

[avgas]

yeah, but then they can't claim back the GST, the coffees, cocaine, the rent, the broadband, the whores, the fuel...
It's also hard to get get the cocaine out of the whores after they have taken it.
Bitches always steal your crack.

Thank god I didn't pay GST on my crack.

[R650R]

Whe's the last time you saw a New Zealand Made Logo? why aren't people proud to put it there, why aren't shops/supermarkets having a special stand with NZ made products, even to the point of showing a pie graph of the retail price of both nz made and imported goods and showing just how much coin goes out of NZ.

Nothings made here anymore, even the kiwi icon fisher n paykel now all getn made offshore just about...
Even the Herald is now using stock photos cause its cheaper than sending their own photographer to take pic of the local airport or spend the time dragging one out of archive.
But as soon as you've made it you have to buy some foreign exotica car or whatever to show you've made it (financially/success etc)...

[R650R]

i was told today that 'people work really hard for their money' and 'they like the economoney', but then go and buy the cheapest shit they can get at bunnings, made in china and shit, and they're all like, 'waa-waa, i can't afford to buy shit made in nz' and i'm all like 'bitch please' and punch them in the mouf.
get real you fucking sheep.

Someone hijacked your login... lol

[R650R]

[QUOTE=FJRider;1130754299] [QUOTE]

No conspiracy, merely pondering what could be a likely future course of events...

You haven't bought anything overseas recently GST IS ADDED at border by NZ CUSTOMS on just about any import over the preset level unless you have resorted to some sort of fraud or trickey...

Thanks for the Einstein level explanation about buying in bulk, guess no ones ever been so bright as you to work it out for themselves aye???? You've earned a chocolate fish with that one boy...

99.99% of my income is spent on goods with GST charged on them. The ONLY things exempt in NZ is bank fees and postage stamps but not courier tickets...
So we could all pay 15% extra income tax, drop GST and it would be exactly the same. The country would be a lot better off as they could cull a few jobs at IRD by dropping gST...

[R650R]

I think Robert may have had an irony implosion when he read that, might be why he hasn't joined in yet.

Well you cant buy everything overseas :) Its not my idea or wish just a guess at where this might be headed.
My point is that every single bit of tax stifles growth and lowers the amount of money consumers have to spend, most of nwhich is spent locally ;p

[Ocean1]

It's also not fair the way the wholesalers/importers give larger places better buy in prices either. It really makes it hard for smaller outfits to compete and survive.

A couple of years ago BOC were charging me $400 for a bottle of Argon. The same bottle they were selling to a large competitor for $56.

I don't do business that way, and I don't expect my suppliers to. I suspect a lot of other clients have walked too, because the latest in a long line of BOC reps to have walked into my shop offered me a 50% discount.

Too late. There's too many other options now, and I'll gladly pay someone else's higher price to avoid dealing with them. What goes around...


I had the discounts discussion with my Electrical Wholesaler when I was a self employed sparkie/heat pump installer.
" Why can I get cable cheaper at Bunnings?"
" Ummmm.....er...."
Eventually I was able to source most of my materials cheaper elsewhere.
Clearly still good margins in plumbing and electrical supplies.

I work with a couple of medium sized electrical outfits, on domestic stuff they make most of their revenue from margins on parts, they're getting 60% on most of it, more on cable. Industrial work they have to charge a higher hourly rate because those clients can command parts prices at least that good.

[Trade_nancy]

Most people I know who buy things from overseas, myself included, understand this sentiment. But NZ retailers are taking the piss with their margins on some items.

Agree.
Wife just got a book in the post from FISHPOND. Cost including postage to a rural address = $4.75! Brand new book with a NZ RRP sticker on it of $38.00. Second book is winging it's way from overseas - total cost incl shipping of $10.75 and the marked price on same book in town here - around $40.00

So - go ahead add GST..you'll still make my day. Retailers are on a slowly sinking vessel.

[FJRider]

No conspiracy, merely pondering what could be a likely future course of events...

Your assumption ... you mean .. :laugh:


You haven't bought anything overseas recently GST IS ADDED at border by NZ CUSTOMS on just about any import over the preset level unless you have resorted to some sort of fraud or trickey...

Anything I've bought was obviously under the "Pre-set" level ... lucky me .. eh .. !!! :niceone:


Thanks for the Einstein level explanation about buying in bulk, guess no ones ever been so bright as you to work it out for themselves aye???? You've earned a chocolate fish with that one boy...

Perhaps ... we shut down supermarkets ... or maybe .. require businesses (by law) to set their mark up amount to a set level ... for ALL retail businesses ... Level the playing field (so to speak) THAT would solve ALL the issues ... eh .. !! :rolleyes:


99.99% of my income is spent on goods with GST charged on them. The ONLY things exempt in NZ is bank fees and postage stamps but not courier tickets...

http://www.ird.govt.nz/gst/additional-calcs/calc-spec-supplies/calc-exempt/

So .. you spend NO money on either a Mortgage ... or Rent ... or repayment of any loans ... ??? Fuck you must be lucky ... :lol:

Spend smarter ...


So we could all pay 15% extra income tax, drop GST and it would be exactly the same. The country would be a lot better off as they could cull a few jobs at IRD by dropping gST...

Do YOUR maths .... It's NOT the same. As I recall ... personal income tax was reduced at the time of GST introduction. Be careful what you wish for ...

IRD cull staff ... ??? you are a realist ... I don't think. Talk to your Labour MP ... ask if they'll ditch GST if they are elected. (They introduced it after all) ... and might just REMOVE it ... (doubt it though)

[Woodman]

It's also not fair the way the wholesalers/importers give larger places better buy in prices either. It really makes it hard for smaller outfits to compete and survive.

The bigger outfits spend a shitload more so they can negotiate a better deal or maybe a % rebate. If I was operating a large business with multiple sites therefore much higher costs i would be pretty pissed off with a wholesaler for giving a one man band the same price as me:nono:. If they don't want their products sold then thats a good way to go about it.

[R650R]

yada yada yada

Jesus your one of those people that needs everything individually spelt out for them... should have realised from the excess multi quoting syndrome...
Your wrong on most of those points but I cant be bothered...

[Shaun Harris]

Why the fek would anyone not buy off shore if cheaper, a lot of these business that will have to close are milking the system ( US) with there tax returns anyway

personell fuel,travel,accomadation bla bla bla

[Swoop]

There are those of us who TRY to buy locally but are prevented in doing so.
Either of:
grossly over inflated price,
not a stocked item,
not a stocked colour,
not a stocked size,
have no intention of stocking that product, ever!
can't be arsed getting the product in for you and charging excessively for the privilege as well.


And having to deal with some up-themself twat of an "assistant" who seems grossly insulted that you have taken them away from their cellphone (txting friends) or computer (surfing tardMe/porn/farcebook).

[FJRider]

Yada ... yada ... yada .....




Your assumptions ... opinions ... and guesswork are no replacement for actual facts.

Your statement ... "99% of my income is on goods with GST added to them" is a sure sign you (either) live rent/mortgage free ... or your income is excessive (if not impressive) ... not to mention being a big spender.

Or .. you're talking through a hole in your head.

Feel free to contradict me ... I know you can ....

Having facts to back those contradictions up .... is another thing.

I doubt if you can ...

Sorry ... I forgot. You can't be bothered.

[jasonu]

There are those of us who TRY to buy locally but are prevented in doing so.
Either of:
grossly over inflated price,
not a stocked item,
not a stocked colour,
not a stocked size,
have no intention of stocking that product, ever!
can't be arsed getting the product in for you and charging excessively for the privilege as well.


And having to deal with some up-themself twat of an "assistant" who seems grossly insulted that you have taken them away from their cellphone (txting friends) or computer (surfing tardMe/porn/farcebook).

You forgot to mention the 3 month wait while they order in the wrong size/color/year/item then tell you it is the disturbers fault and then make you feel like a cunt for asking for your money back.

[scrivy]

Interesting....

Let's imagine a world where there are no local shops. Imagine the inconvenience of not being able to get anything that day. Imagine not getting the items you wanted for up to a week. Imagine not receiving the right item, or it was the wrong size, shape or colour. Imagine buying a present for a birthday or a special occasion and it didn't turn up.
It's not easy out there, but helping support other towns or other countries' economies is certainly not helping ours. How high do we want to see our balance of trade deficit grow? How high do we want to see our unemployment grow? How high do we want to see our crime statistics grow?
You may like to save lots by using out-of-town or overseas websites, but in the end, all you'll achieve is empty local shops, higher local and national unemployment, and simply less people able to afford to use your business. So you may directly save a percentage by buying overseas, but indirectly, could you survive a drop of the same percentage of sales in your business from unemployed locals not being able to afford your services? I am picking not.
Internet retailers generally do not stock a whole range from their suppliers, but usually only the top-selling lines. Local businesses stock a wider range of unique items, because they buy for their individual market.
When you go out of town for the weekends, would you really travel to another town to sit down for a coffee, or to have dinner, beside 30 empty shops, with no atmosphere? Imagine what rates home owners will pay when shop tenants aren't subsidising their rates any more. After all, who will pay for all the CBD under-verandah lighting currently paid by shop tenants? Imagine if this wasn't lit up. Imagine how dark and dingy CBD streets would be. Not to mention a magnet for graffiti, vandalisim and crime. A great reason for people to not visit your town. Is that really what we want? If we all spent just $2 a week buying New Zealand made items, as opposed to items from Australia or elsewhere, we would keep 10,000 New Zealanders in employment! Imagine if we spent $50 a week!
This would solve most of New Zealand's unemployment woes, not to mention reduce our balance of trade deficit, and reduce our huge reliance on overseas borrowing. Hey, it might even mean a reduction of your taxes.
Having local shops close down means advertising spend will decrease, media jobs will go, then your free community newspapers will stop. Sponsorship will decrease, and sports teams, local schools and individuals will suffer. They all get a large amount of community support from local retailers.
For many charities, the majority of their income is from the support of communities and local businesses. How will they suffer from a dramatic reduction in funding? I hate to think of the consequences of any reduction in the services that they currently provide to our local communities.
Studies have shown that local businesses donate to community causes at more than twice the rate of large corporations. But, how many internet businesses get hit up for local sponsorship? Also, how many overseas businesses donate to your community? Locally owned retailers support local causes - it's as simple as that.

[Kickaha]

blah, blah blah,blah,blah, blah blah,blah,blah, blah blah,blah,blah, blah blah,blah,blah, blah blah,blah
You're taking a far too longsighted view there, if it doesn't affect us now then we really don't care about what it's going to be like years down the line

[JimO]

everybody wants a bargain then moans if they get laid off because the industry they work in is hit by people buying overseas

[Voltaire]

Shopping Locally makes sense.

Mortgage payments to ASB- Aussie
Shopping at Countdown- Aussie
Filling up at BP- UK I suppose
Herald- Aussie
Trade Me-Aussie

[Shaun Harris]

Interesting....

Let's imagine a world where there are no local shops. Imagine the inconvenience of not being able to get anything that day. Imagine not getting the items you wanted for up to a week. Imagine not receiving the right item, or it was the wrong size, shape or colour. Imagine buying a present for a birthday or a special occasion and it didn't turn up.
It's not easy out there, but helping support other towns or other countries' economies is certainly not helping ours. How high do we want to see our balance of trade deficit grow? How high do we want to see our unemployment grow? How high do we want to see our crime statistics grow?
You may like to save lots by using out-of-town or overseas websites, but in the end, all you'll achieve is empty local shops, higher local and national unemployment, and simply less people able to afford to use your business. So you may directly save a percentage by buying overseas, but indirectly, could you survive a drop of the same percentage of sales in your business from unemployed locals not being able to afford your services? I am picking not.
Internet retailers generally do not stock a whole range from their suppliers, but usually only the top-selling lines. Local businesses stock a wider range of unique items, because they buy for their individual market.
When you go out of town for the weekends, would you really travel to another town to sit down for a coffee, or to have dinner, beside 30 empty shops, with no atmosphere? Imagine what rates home owners will pay when shop tenants aren't subsidising their rates any more. After all, who will pay for all the CBD under-verandah lighting currently paid by shop tenants? Imagine if this wasn't lit up. Imagine how dark and dingy CBD streets would be. Not to mention a magnet for graffiti, vandalisim and crime. A great reason for people to not visit your town. Is that really what we want? If we all spent just $2 a week buying New Zealand made items, as opposed to items from Australia or elsewhere, we would keep 10,000 New Zealanders in employment! Imagine if we spent $50 a week!
This would solve most of New Zealand's unemployment woes, not to mention reduce our balance of trade deficit, and reduce our huge reliance on overseas borrowing. Hey, it might even mean a reduction of your taxes.
Having local shops close down means advertising spend will decrease, media jobs will go, then your free community newspapers will stop. Sponsorship will decrease, and sports teams, local schools and individuals will suffer. They all get a large amount of community support from local retailers.
For many charities, the majority of their income is from the support of communities and local businesses. How will they suffer from a dramatic reduction in funding? I hate to think of the consequences of any reduction in the services that they currently provide to our local communities.
Studies have shown that local businesses donate to community causes at more than twice the rate of large corporations. But, how many internet businesses get hit up for local sponsorship? Also, how many overseas businesses donate to your community? Locally owned retailers support local causes - it's as simple as that.



very good logical points

[scrivy]

Shopping Locally makes sense.

Mortgage payments to ASB- Aussie Try TSB...
Shopping at Countdown- Aussie Try PakNslave
Filling up at BP- UK I suppose Try Gull
Herald- Aussie
Trade Me-Aussie

Maybe........

[scrivy]

You're taking a far too longsighted view there, if it doesn't affect us now then we really don't care about what it's going to be like years down the line

You say that Kick, 'cause you don't have kids that are soon to be in the non-existant workforce....

[Ocean1]

Imagine the inconvenience of not being able to get anything that day. Imagine not getting the items you wanted for up to a week. Imagine not receiving the right item, or it was the wrong size, shape or colour. Imagine buying a present for a birthday or a special occasion and it didn't turn up.

I don't have to imagine it, that's more or less what NZ had before most import duties and tariffs were removed. Local producers simply weren't servicing the market, it seemed like they were basically taking the piss, you took what they offered or got fucked because there simply wasn't any alternative.

And now we see that again overseas suppliers can do the job for half the price. Should we rebuild protections for local suppliers? They do keep the money in town. But probably not as much as paying an off-shore business half as much in the first place.

I've got a lot of sympathy for the locals in some industries, and I don't fully understand why they can't source product at "wholesale" prices low enough to be able to retail at a profit, but that does seem to be the case in some instances. But the fact is a fuckload of your average Kiwi's workload goes into paying the tax that's supposed to be helping local charities, and the money saved by buying off-shore leaves a deal of cash in the pocket to help subsidise the local clubs directly.

[scrivy]

and the money saved by buying off-shore leaves a deal of cash in the pocket to help subsidise the local clubs directly.

I wish that was the case Ocean, but even charities/clubs/schools are struggling from decreased donations....

[Ocean1]

I wish that was the case Ocean, but even charities/clubs/schools are struggling from decreased donations....

Can show me? I'm not calling you on it, it's just easy to see a few examples and an article in the local rag and extend that perception across the whole country/sport/school/decade.

I'm at least as careful with my own perceptions that middle NZ is complaining far more about their std of living than they used to, in spite of the fact that most impartial measures show that it's never been so good.

Even then, more so than I can ever remember every bit of "evidence" you find seems to have been produced by someone with an interest in the game, so you end up with "evidence" worth fuck all. I usually ignore everything from anyone with any interest at all but it's becoming increasingly common to find that the link to the source has been hidden.

[Woodman]

I don't have to imagine it, that's more or less what NZ had before most import duties and tariffs were removed. Local producers simply weren't servicing the market, it seemed like they were basically taking the piss, you took what they offered or got fucked because there simply wasn't any alternative.

And now we see that again overseas suppliers can do the job for half the price. Should we rebuild protections for local suppliers? They do keep the money in town. But probably not as much as paying an off-shore business half as much in the first place.

I've got a lot of sympathy for the locals in some industries, and I don't fully understand why they can't source product at "wholesale" prices low enough to be able to retail at a profit, but that does seem to be the case in some instances. But the fact is a fuckload of your average Kiwi's workload goes into paying the tax that's supposed to be helping local charities, and the money saved by buying off-shore leaves a deal of cash in the pocket to help subsidise the local clubs directly.

The NZ market is so small and doesn't hardly register on most overseas wholesalers radar. For instance the company I work for which has about 100 outlets in NZ is 1% of our US based parent company. The parent company has the highest market share in the US, which is 10%, and thats only the US and its a global industry, so work out what the percentage the NZ business is globally. That is why some NZ companies cannot get decent wholesale costs from overseas suppliers. Too small.

[scrivy]

Can show me? I'm not calling you on it, it's just easy to see a few examples and an article in the local rag and extend that perception across the whole country/sport/school/decade.

I'm at least as careful with my own perceptions that middle NZ is complaining far more about their std of living than they used to, in spite of the fact that most impartial measures show that it's never been so good.

Even then, more so than I can ever remember every bit of "evidence" you find seems to have been produced by someone with an interest in the game, so you end up with "evidence" worth fuck all. I usually ignore everything from anyone with any interest at all but it's becoming increasingly common to find that the link to the source has been hidden.

As per your above post, there are links to pros and cons on the debate. So it's hard to get an impartial/unbiased report worth anything. But what I do know, is that my local radio stations and newspapers are struggling for advertisers from the local businesses - fact. I was the financial person on my school board for 8 years, and we were getting less and less school 'donations', and even less sponsorship and giveaways for school events etc for the PTA.
One only has to look around at the empty shops everywhere in regional NZ, and also the amount of people that were once fully employed that are now coming in to me looking for jobs, because the business they were in went tits up.....

It's fucken sad out there, it really is.....

[avgas]

Let's imagine a world where there are no local shops. Imagine the inconvenience of not being able to get anything that day. Imagine not getting the items you wanted for up to a week. Imagine not receiving the right item, or it was the wrong size, shape or colour. Imagine buying a present for a birthday or a special occasion and it didn't turn up.
I actually have exactly that situation right now. It's not as doom and gloom as it sounds.

Through Amazon Prime, as service I pay for at $80/year. I get FREE 2 day shipping, and the shipping is guaranteed to arrive on time. I also have a refund and return policy that costs me nothing.

Additional to this I get free movies to watch, free music to listen to, and discounted rates for other things.

So its not all doom and gloom. But I think there needs to be a balance of buying local and shipping stuff in. Its allowing for that balance which is the hard part it seems. They seem to want to block one or allow the other.

[Ocean1]

The NZ market is so small and doesn't hardly register on most overseas wholesalers radar. For instance the company I work for which has about 100 outlets in NZ is 1% of our US based parent company. The parent company has the highest market share in the US, which is 10%, and thats only the US and its a global industry, so work out what the percentage the NZ business is globally. That is why some NZ companies cannot get decent wholesale costs from overseas suppliers. Too small.

Yes NZ is a small market, but that only explains some of the price differences. Explain to me why an American individual can buy a Dell desktop out of a Singapore warehouse for half the price I can. As far as the manufacturer is concerned the supply cost is nearly identical.

What I'm struggling to understand is what causes the rest of the difference. I can see advantages to the US economy generally in almost every price comparison of US product there and here, there's no overt trade barriers in place and yet the real-world effect is exactly that of a trade barrier/sanction: US product prices off-shore are subsidising US product prices at home.

As for domestic retail, if they can't add value to the product they really can't expect to charge any more for it, can they? Technology always changes the world, in this case it's taken a while but the effect is to allow you more direct access to the manufacturer, and I can't really see that as a bad thing.

[Ocean1]

As per your above post, there are links to pros and cons on the debate. So it's hard to get an impartial/unbiased report worth anything. But what I do know, is that my local radio stations and newspapers are struggling for advertisers from the local businesses - fact. I was the financial person on my school board for 8 years, and we were getting less and less school 'donations', and even less sponsorship and giveaways for school events etc for the PTA.
One only has to look around at the empty shops everywhere in regional NZ, and also the amount of people that were once fully employed that are now coming in to me looking for jobs, because the business they were in went tits up.....

It's fucken sad out there, it really is.....

But it's not all sad out there. Most measures of living standards have us improving. GDP is increasing. Average wages are increasing. Job numbers are increasing. Health spending is increasing, and if that's having less effect on actual health it's because we're eating a lot more and exercising a fucking sight less.

Shops have been emptying in outer suburbia and rural towns for decades, a symptom of the ease with which people can mail order or head into the city for stuff. Schools I can't really comment on, other than to say that my kids schools were saying the same thing 25 years ago. Any time you've got an artificial market you get strange side effects, and schools are as artificial as they come: there's little link between supplier and user.

Radio and newspapers? Meh, dying industries, hardly surprising.

So if you're seeing a genuine measurable drop in local living standards then it's just that: local.

The trend I don't like is the growth in the size of market-dominant companies in most areas. They can make product more cheaply available to the end-user than smaller local companies do, but it's a double edged sword, give them enough scope by allowing them to limit their competition and they'll abuse their position.

That's the commerce commission's job, of course: to prevent market monopolies, price fixing and a lot of other anti-competitive behaviours. It seems increasingly that they're not having the desired effect. Maybe we need to either change the rules a bit or get a bigger stick onto the job.

The other thing is the loss of unskilled jobs, either through the loss of industries to places where labour is cheaper or through automation. Basically: get used to it, it's not going to change, 95% of the world would literally kill for the factory jobs we had available here 30 years ago. And automation is my thing, I'm probably personally responsible for the loss of thousands of labouring jobs over the years. Again, don't expect that to do anything but accelerate.

The fix? Make fucking sure that your education includes skills the world wants. It's really that simple. If you expect to earn a living without such a skill then you're the cause of you're own downfall, don't expect too much help from those that did do their homework.

[Voltaire]

As per your above post, there are links to pros and cons on the debate. So it's hard to get an impartial/unbiased report worth anything. But what I do know, is that my local radio stations and newspapers are struggling for advertisers from the local businesses - fact. I was the financial person on my school board for 8 years, and we were getting less and less school 'donations', and even less sponsorship and giveaways for school events etc for the PTA.
One only has to look around at the empty shops everywhere in regional NZ, and also the amount of people that were once fully employed that are now coming in to me looking for jobs, because the business they were in went tits up.....

It's fucken sad out there, it really is.....

That's a good example, Radio stations and Newspapers only exist to sell advertising by attracting listeners with tunes, so called news and prizes.
If Radio TV and Newspapers stopped tomorrow would anyone really miss them?
Pretty much replaced by the internet.
" oh but what about all the jobs in Radio and TV"
What about all the Blacksmith and telephone exchange operators....typists.. and the tram drivers.... and so on.:innocent:
IT are screaming out for staff.

[Ocean1]

I actually have exactly that situation right now. It's not as doom and gloom as it sounds.

Through Amazon Prime, as service I pay for at $80/year. I get FREE 2 day shipping, and the shipping is guaranteed to arrive on time. I also have a refund and return policy that costs me nothing.

Additional to this I get free movies to watch, free music to listen to, and discounted rates for other things.

So its not all doom and gloom. But I think there needs to be a balance of buying local and shipping stuff in. Its allowing for that balance which is the hard part it seems. They seem to want to block one or allow the other.

I think there's a natural balance there, if you don't strangle it too much with market controls. Where a local supplier can genuinely add value to the product he's sourcing then he'll survive just fine, as long as the big boys don't kneecap him.

Some of those big boys aren't amenable to NZ rules of commerce though, they don't live here. That's the real penalty in being such a small fish I guess, you can't impose too many conditions on the terms at the trade agreement table.

I'm trying to think how many of the more recent boom economies could trace their success to a single, large scale industry domination. Would make for better terms in that one industry, in turn making for better overall national terms of trade results than half-arsed development across the board.


Edit: and then I remember Finland/Nokia, Ireland, etc. Relying too much on one good hand can be risky...

[Ocean1]

IT are screaming out for staff.

I'd be happy with a couple of reliable senior engineers.





Edit: Not really, I'd have to work harder to keep them busy, and I don't want to.

[Scuba_Steve]

Try TSB...
Try PakNslave
Try Gull

Maybe........

What about the feed in PakNSave? Ain't all from NZ, in-fact most isn't; or does the country of production not matter in you rants only the shop where it is brought?
Gull - Gull Petroleum is a Perth, Western Australian based petroleum company, which retails fuel in Western Australia and New Zealand.
And what brands are on the clothes you wear? I hope there's no "made in China/Vietnam/Thailand" on those threads that would be sorta hypocritical wouldn't it.

[ellipsis]

...I would love to buy locally and often do, but sometimes the let downs from 'struggling local business', is frustrating and often their attitudes to you, the local buyer is appalling...an hour and a half wasted on the phone recently to try and track down a fairly common part for a fairly common tool...I tracked it down to one supplier who quoted me 90 something bucks, but they would not be able to get one for two weeks, why, because thats the next time the agent will be in...found one in stock at a slightly larger locally owned business, 140 bucks...I mentioned the descrepancy in price, the reply , 'we have one in stock , take it or leave it'...fuck your attitude I thought...found another small struggling local bizzo, very helpful, 'I'll track one down and call you back tomorrow, shouldn't be a prob', under a hundred bucks...never called me back, phoned again, 'sorry, I got held up, phone you back this arvo'...two months ago that was...got the part delivered for 45 bucks from a local chap who got it for me online and made his bit on the purchase...I would still prefer to shop locally , but why, I don't know...I'm a mug maybe...

[R650R]

Well some interesting replies here. Seems not just the almighty dollar and the 15% margin of GST but service matters highly too.
Something else too, before the internet petrol was only 80ish cents a litre parking was just about free everywhere and you thought nothing off nipping into town to grab a specific item.
Since then you now have highly increased enforcement of rego and wof (I'm sure everyone gets caught out from tiem to tiem with schedules) that you cant risk shopping for that $50 part when you might get $400 fines picking it up.
Also since then our dollar has shifted hugely in value against the USA and other currencies.

So just about everything has changed except retailers own business practices. There is a new trend for some firms to share premises with the business dojo type places and others. Maybe retailers could share a big building together (smaller than a mall before some smart arse says it) or not be open every day of the week. One thing I've noticed is that people don't seem to mind slow overall shipping time if price is cheap, so maybe retailers need to can the five day 9-5 model....

[Woodman]

Well some interesting replies here. Seems not just the almighty dollar and the 15% margin of GST but service matters highly too.
Something else too, before the internet petrol was only 80ish cents a litre parking was just about free everywhere and you thought nothing off nipping into town to grab a specific item.
Since then you now have highly increased enforcement of rego and wof (I'm sure everyone gets caught out from tiem to tiem with schedules) that you cant risk shopping for that $50 part when you might get $400 fines picking it up.
Also since then our dollar has shifted hugely in value against the USA and other currencies.

So just about everything has changed except retailers own business practices. There is a new trend for some firms to share premises with the business dojo type places and others. Maybe retailers could share a big building together (smaller than a mall before some smart arse says it) or not be open every day of the week. One thing I've noticed is that people don't seem to mind slow overall shipping time if price is cheap, so maybe retailers need to can the five day 9-5 model....

Any retailer serious about selling shit is going to be open 7 days. Like they are now.

[Swoop]

You forgot to mention the 3 month wait while they order in the wrong size/color/year/item then tell you it is the disturbers fault and then make you feel like a cunt for asking for your money back.

True!
This is why I avoid Cyclespot. Fucking retarded, inept, over-egoed, over-fed cunt in parts, who simply didn't order the parts that I ordered from him (in person).