BRONZ, how about having a rethink on the 1 September ride?

[Hitcher]

BRONZ, please call off this nonsense about riding to Parliament on 1 September, take three deep breaths and start again. Please don’t embarrass yourselves.

You’ve got a bunch of paid-up members and a wider motorcycle community you should first be having a conversation with. You should start by asking them whether they’ve got a problem with the ACC levies that apply to motorcyclists, what that means for them, how much of an issue they think that those are and what options they may have for change.

Feedback from such a conversation should help shape what, if anything, needs to happen next. It should also help shape a reasoned, factual, compelling and articulate story, something that is sadly lacking from the outrage recently shared on social media and online motorcycle forums.

Without such a story, what are Ministers and other dignitaries going to be told on 1 September? What’s the story that’s going to be sold to the media to get them interested? And, most importantly, what’s the message that’s going to be told to motorcyclists to get them excited enough to want to devote their time to supporting a cause?

The campaign at the moment looks like something invented by a bunch of blokes in a pub, coloured by emotions sponsored by the on-tap draught.

What’s the success outcome that’s desired? Effigies of politicians burned in front of a mob chanting en mass for the demise of Judith Collins? A list of names of people who want ACC wound up presented to the Clerk of the House? Graham McCready enlisted to take legal action against whomever?

What is it that bikers want, and do they want to be taken seriously?

I reckon that if I don’t understand what the game is here, there will be others like me.

Lack of compelling issues aside, your timing is also bad. There’s an election campaign underway on 1 September which will be considerably more newsworthy than a couple of dozen incoherent bikers and placards turning up outside Parliament on a Monday.

Please start again. There’s no shame in that.

[caspernz]

Amen to that Hitcher. There will be more thinking this way, let's see how many have the nerve to poke their head up out of their bunker...

Nothing wrong with protesting, but yes the desired outcome and timing of the protest could do with a rethink. Oh and yes I'm a paid up member of BRONZ Wellington, albeit a passive one.

[jasonu]

You are all wasting your time. It doesn't matter what motorcyclists in NZ do. You can protest, shout or take up all the parking spaces on Tamaki Drive. Nobody will care. It won't do you any good. You will be lucky to make page 5 of the Herald. Simply put there is not enough of you to get the politicians attention. Your actions will amount to a slight annoyance to the public and the powers to be. You don't have enough votes to scare any action from the Beehive.

[ruaphu]

Yeah nicely said Hitcher, totally agree. Would happily support something better planned out and mor informed at the right time.

Jason, heck i hate it when someone states the stats like that. But heck should we all simply let every other twat ride rough shod over bikers?

Hell no! Better to go down fighting than simply give up.
Ando

[Drew]

I don't wanna detract from the point by agreeing with it, but the points are valid and well put.

Kinda like everything I've read about this protest...isn't.

[cs363]

Common Sense

Totally agree with every point you've made.
When I first saw posts about this protest I thought it was just a bunch of disorganised motorcyclists talking it up, didn't even realise it was driven by BRONZ initially (yes, I know there's a certain irony in the preceding sentence...)

I can't believe BRONZ have come out with such a poorly thought through idea, as Hitcher has pointed out it has more holes than a sieve!

I attended the BIKOI and would be a starter for any properly organised protest with proper goals as Hitcher has suggested, but not this lame arse idea made even lamer by the clash of timing with the election, meaning this certainly won't be anything like front page news and there won't be many, if any pollies at parliament at that time of year.

Come on BRONZ come back with a better plan and I'll be keen, hell if the plan is good enough I might even join back up!

[Voltaire]

Is it a BRONZ organised protest?
No mention of it on the Welly Site
http://www.bronzwellington.org.nz/calendar/

[Hitcher]

Is it a BRONZ organised protest?
No mention of it on the Welly Site
http://www.bronzwellington.org.nz/calendar/

Everything I've seen to date has been stamped with a BRONZ logo. Perhaps their webmaster hasn't been included on the planning.

[bogan]

Everything I've seen to date has been stamped with a BRONZ logo. Perhaps their webmaster hasn't been included on the planning.

False flag op? :shit:

[HenryDorsetCase]

Effigies of politicians burned in front of a mob chanting en mass for the demise of Judith Collins?

you seem to be implying that would be a bad thing. instead of awesome. And the Dear Leader's presidential "Team Key" style would, one suggests, result in chants en masse of "Fuck John Key". I'm down with the kids, and down with that, as they say.

[Voltaire]

Ol Dotcom sure knows how to work that media...
I've seen better effigies at Guy Fawkes.
I would have thought BRONZ would be past the " lots of bikes outside Parliament" as a way forward.
It makes the news...so what.
Maybe they got the date wrong and they meant April 1

[jasonu]

Yeah nicely said Hitcher, totally agree. Would happily support something better planned out and mor informed at the right time.

Jason, heck i hate it when someone states the stats like that. But heck should we all simply let every other twat ride rough shod over bikers?

Hell no! Better to go down fighting than simply give up.
Ando

I think Drews idea about not paying rego and (hopefully) disrupting the courts is worth investigating.

[Hitcher]

I think Drews idea about not paying rego and (hopefully) disrupting the courts is worth investigating.

Yes, but what's the desired outcome from that protest action? Bikers shouldn't ride for free, but how much it too much, in terms of registration and ACC costs?

Talks about "fairness" may sound nice, but what do they mean?

The biker community needs to decide what it wants based on it analysing all of the issues, not just one or two. It's not hard to do this and it wouldn't take too long. But between now and 1 September is a bit of an ask.

[Ixion]

I need to note for the record that BRONZ Auckland have no position on this, and have no knowledge of this event other than what has been posted on this site.

We will discuss it, as far as we know about it, next Wednesday.

Personally I am not clear about the rationale (what is it that is actually being asked, of who ?); and the timing is not ideal.

[Murray]

I need to note for the record that BRONZ Auckland have no position on this, and have no knowledge of this event other than what has been posted on this site.

We will discuss it, as far as we know about it, next Wednesday.

Personally I am not clear about the rationale (what is it that is actually being asked, of who ?); and the timing is not ideal.

I think this is where the BRONZ involvement has come in

http://www.adventureridingnz.co.nz/forums/topic/acc-protests-at-parliament-september-1st/

Edward Brodie states BRONZ are organising a protest and the attached letter to Byron Cummings from BRONZ gives authorisation to protest on the grounds. If its all to be believed??

[Voltaire]

Cheers Murray.

Its a pretty funny letter ( could not cut and paste it)

Gist is Byron has asked to come and protest

Govt has said yes you can come and protest on Monday 1st September between 10 and 12 AM :laugh:

but no motorcycles in the grounds

You are allowed to stand by the Seddon Statue.

Keep off the steps

Your not allowed self catering.

and so on.......

and if you leave a mess you will be sent the bill.

End

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[willytheekid]

I need to note for the record that BRONZ Auckland have no position on this, and have no knowledge of this event other than what has been posted on this site.

We will discuss it, as far as we know about it, next Wednesday.

Personally I am not clear about the rationale (what is it that is actually being asked, of who ?); and the timing is not ideal.


I think this is where the BRONZ involvement has come in

http://www.adventureridingnz.co.nz/forums/topic/acc-protests-at-parliament-september-1st/

Edward Brodie states BRONZ are organising a protest and the attached letter to Byron Cummings from BRONZ gives authorisation to protest on the grounds. If its all to be believed??

So once again, Bronz!...about as organised as a plate of spaghetti being thrown across the fucking room!

figures tho...no consultation, very little warning, no actual message to deliver and the arrogance to think that riders will just turn up and support this BS event...yup, sure sounds like Bronz "organised" this crap.

...still, at least we have confirmed that nothings really changed much in that absolute joke of an organisation....the "voice" of NZ Riders!:tugger::killingme


personally...
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/d4/30/cc/d430ccf02b110b7a6d946895449793a3.jpg
:yes:

[Indie]

Is it a BRONZ organised protest?
No mention of it on the Welly Site
http://www.bronzwellington.org.nz/calendar/

This is coming from BRONZ Federation see media release

[Indie]

BRONZ Media Release
12 August 2014
For immediate release

ACC cash cow continues to milk motorists
On August 5th, ACC Minister Judith Collins announced a reduction in the average motor vehicle levy of 41% (effective 1 July 2015). This is after years of ACC claiming underfunding, yet having returned large profits.
The Minister did not disclose which classes of vehicle the reduction applies to, however levy consultation process chair, Paula Rebstock stated in May 2014, "The safer the car, the lower the levy. But all cars will have a lower license levy under our proposed changes for 2015".
Ironically, the levy reduction applies regardless of the safety features of the vehicle. If vehicle safety is a key determinant to the reduction of levies, why are petrol powered vintage cars also being given a 46% reduction in ACC levy?
ACC stated to motorcyclists in 2009 that if as a group we were to reduce the number of accidents, we would see a reduction in levies.
Not only have motorcyclists demonstrated that even with increasing numbers, the number of accidents is trending down, motorcycles in recent years have improved greatly with tyre technology, Antilock braking and Traction control systems. In addition, motorcyclists have opted to ride with protective and high visibility gear, undertaking rider training and license based CBTA assessments to improve safety. None of these safety improvements are considered at all by ACC.
The following if adopted by ACC would provide a fair and equitable solution:
• Levy the rider / driver – not the vehicle
• Levy reductions based on safety features / improvements should apply to all classes of vehicle applicable including motorcycles
• Providing discounts for riders who have completed skills improvement courses
• Providing discounts for riders who can prove purchase of standards approved safety gear
• Consider discounts for no claims
• Scrap the 5 year old ineffective Motorcycle Safety Advisory Council (MSAC) and return the annual $30 fee as a discount directly to riders to invest in their own safety.
The Minister and ACC are ignoring a minority group, even though the vehicle levy coffers are approaching 100% of the funding required to cover all claims and related future expenses. Giving a general reduction to private vehicles on a safety basis yet excluding motorcycles on the same grounds is clearly discrimination.
As a result of the discrimination, BRONZ Federation Inc has organised a protest on 1st September 2014 at 10am at Parliament grounds.
David Teague
Media Liaison
On Behalf of Byron Cummins
BRONZ Federation Spokesperson
Mail to: medialiaison@bronzwellington.org.nz

[jasonu]

Yes, but what's the desired outcome from that protest action? .

If it works and jams up the courts that would almost certainly get the attention of the pollies and the media not to mention the courts themselves. It could possibly take weeks if not months to clear the jam and longer if bikers continued this form of protest. The powers to be would have to take some sort of action, hopefully the action bikers are hoping for.
To have a protest outside the Beehive for a few hours might result in some underling being made to come out and talk to you in front of the cameras but that will be about it.
Don't get me wrong, I hate the way bikers are being treated in NZ. I think the protest idea is a waste of time and effort.

[willytheekid]

....!

"BRONZ Federation Inc has organised a protest on 1st September 2014 at 10am at Parliament grounds"

And there's the problem with that "Media Release"...whats been organised?...or even discussed with the ACTUAL riders of NZ??

...yeah!, NOTHING!...and thats exactly the problem with Bronz!! <_<


Good luck at YOUR rally...hope you get the required support to make a change...in under three weeks!

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/7d/29/6a/7d296a0e3108697645b2021ae4aec5ef.jpg

...ya bloody muppets!:rolleyes:

[Trade_nancy]

If it works and jams up the courts that would almost certainly get the attention of the pollies and the media not to mention the courts themselves. It could possibly take weeks if not months to clear the jam and longer if bikers continued this form of protest. The powers to be would have to take some sort of action, hopefully the action bikers are hoping for.
To have a protest outside the Beehive for a few hours might result in some underling being made to come out and talk to you in front of the cameras but that will be about it.
Don't get me wrong, I hate the way bikers are being treated in NZ. I think the protest idea is a waste of time and effort.

But until they DO get clogged - they will have time to process some,..no? I don't wanna be at the front of the queue. Nor will most..hence the queue won't happen.
The previous protest on Parliament grounds - The Bikeoi..did produce some resulting back-pedaling that saw them drop back from a proposed $700-$800 fee to the now $500 or so. Likely - that is the level they always anticipated - expecting protest.
I am in favour of a rant on the steps again and will be attending if this proceeds. I do agree with others that the date is maybe not the best choice in some respects. However - those that rant here about John Key and his bunch being ousted - you have the chance to front and put it to your red mob to state their intentions over ACC levies for the targeted minority...now that they are desperate to re-enter the halls of power with bribes. In that regard - maybe the timing can work. Let's see if Cuntylips lot will come to our protest. They did last time. If I remember right - two Labour MPs fronted - one on a Rocket 3?

[Voltaire]

This is coming from BRONZ Federation see media release

So after you all find parking off the Govt grounds, gather by the Seddon memorial with no sandwiches, standing on the steps or hassling

anyone coming for going what then from the allocated 10 -12 spot they granted you?

or is that letter a wind up?:rolleyes:

[Indie]

So once again, Bronz!...about as organised as a plate of spaghetti being thrown across the fucking room!

figures tho...no consultation, very little warning, no actual message to deliver and the arrogance to think that riders will just turn up and support this BS event...yup, sure sounds like Bronz "organised" this crap.

...still, at least we have confirmed that nothings really changed much in that absolute joke of an organisation....the "voice" of NZ Riders!:tugger::killingme


personally...
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/d4/30/cc/d430ccf02b110b7a6d946895449793a3.jpg
:yes:

BRONZ Auckland has been notified, your Federation reps have been emailed and asked for input on this. If they have not passed this on to their membership .....

[willytheekid]

BRONZ Auckland has been notified, your Federation reps have been emailed and asked for input on this. If they have not passed this on to their membership .....

My WHAT have been WHAT!??

:angry:
http://www.mogozobo.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/resized_grandma-finds-the-internet-meme-generator-i-ve-been-rick-roll-d-that-son-of-a-bitch-d4c6e9.jpg

..damnit :laugh:

[Voltaire]

Its a bit like this....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE

[PrincessBandit]

The Bikoi was well attended and organised pretty damned well too - yet where did it get us? A small scrap off the dinner plate.

Anything that is not thought out thoroughly will be effectively a waste of time and only reinforces our impotence as a sizeable group of road users.

Basically any legal options open to us also are a dead end in terms of an outcome that will be satisfactory to us.

What we need is something that will be totally unexpected and have the x factor of ingenuity and surprise. (Any ideas???) It also needs huge numbers because we all know that in politics it's the numbers that count. Can we, as a certain wedge of the road using community, ever be unified sufficiently to effect the hammerblow of change?

:mellow:

[R650R]

I'd go but there's been too many 'who stole my bike' threads from the Wellington region lately...

Kinda agree with Hitcher, pointless really. Perhaps an economic blockade instead. There must be a few influential businesses with bikers at the helm that could stall govt supplies....

As for disrupting courts by not paying rego, its not a criminal offence, purely a civil debt collection matter. Yay get your bike seized by court bailiff, epic fail there...

Lets just go on a booze trip instead, I have unused Mermaid dollars sitting about. Now if we all hit the club and drive up demand we'll not only raise the ladies standards of living but we'll force the politicians to pay the high prices and hit them in the pocket LOL...

[cheshirecat]

I too attended the "big one" and appreciate all the effort that went into a well run event. The thing is no government will back down for a protest (or be seen to)- to do so invites rule by anarchy. Also petitions are easily ignored so that route is a no go. These days social and video/tv media is the effective medium, exposing names behind the decisions, targeting weak constituencies, aligning disaffected groups, gaining influential allies (cycling, trucks, cabs etc), exposing financial dealings, youtube, facebook, twitter and operating on an international scale. It's a lot of organisation but it is effective.

[cs363]

Its a bit like this....

Master of the understatement! It's EXACTLY like that!
This kind of BS is why I'm no longer a member of BRONZ.

And, putting your hopes in the red mob to get into power and sort ACC and their levies out is about as half-arsed as relying on BRONZ, both organisations it seems would be incapable of hosting a drunken orgy in a whorehouse with on-site brewing facilities!

I'm not in favour of the displaying no plates option either, as there's the fines which have the potential to be more than $150 (see attached) not to mention I would be surprised if there wasn't an impound option on the vehicle (I'm sure I've seen this somewhere, but can't find it right now - perhaps one of our resident :Police: could throw some light on this?), especially in the case of repeat offenders and there may be possible implications for some insurance companies (operating a vehicle illegally could affect some policies I would think, certainly would impede claim progress at best).
That said, I like the principle of the no plate protest.

I really think that if there is going to be a successful organised protest with a turn out equal to or better than, the BIKOI then it needs to be done at a time, and with enough warning to potential attendees that will maximise attendance, maximise exposure and ensure that the politicians and others who matter are available to be a party to it (willing or not).

I think some of the comments in the other thread about this 'protest' http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/168693-ACC-Protest-1-September-Wellington regarding a paid professional lobby group and utilising the power of social media and the press etc., make a lot of sense too, certainly would be more effective than some small, disorganised gathering outside parliament for an hour or so while everyone's attention is on the election.

The key to any and all of this is being organised though, so really BRONZ needs to go back to the drawing board on this one if they're going to get any serious support.

[Hitcher]

Kinda agree with Hitcher, pointless really.

Hitcher hasn't said this is "pointless", rather that it's badly conceived and poorly delivered.

[Katman]

What we need is something that will be totally unexpected and have the x factor of ingenuity and surprise. (Any ideas???)

We could stop having crashes.

That'd learn 'em.

[Hitcher]

What we need is something that will be totally unexpected and have the x factor of ingenuity and surprise. (Any ideas???) It also needs huge numbers because we all know that in politics it's the numbers that count. Can we, as a certain wedge of the road using community, ever be unified sufficiently to effect the hammerblow of change?

There are enough bikers around the country to sort a programme of action out, have no fear on that front -- but they need to be asked to contribute. "Leadership" isn't about being able to miraculously pull rabbits from hats on demand. Rather it's about focusing people on issues that concern them. Ask the audience, as most candidates on WWTBAM generally have to do.

[Paul in NZ]

Look – I really don’t like paying the rego fees even though in the wider scheme of things I’m at a point in my life where it does not hurt too much… Having said that, I’ve recently ditched 3 really fun bikes that I probably would have kept to manage the costs.

Yes I think that in some cases the fees are OTT but I’m also mindful that in many cases we are reaping only what we have sowed… There are many people on this site that have benefitted from a trip in a chopper or ambulance and all the rebuilding that happens after this and in that case the current charges are small beer considering what has been spent on them. Of course there are others who never seem to fall (long may this continue) and to them it seems excessive.

No one really minds that there IS an ACC charge – the question is what’s fair and reasonable.

The second issue is who are motorcyclists? There are many many sub groups and each one has slightly different needs and exhibits a different collective identity. One of the biggest, or at least the loudest, groups is the 1% clone, thunderbike riding rebel without a cause. These guys can look a little intimidating and being rebels often exhibit only a sketchy adherence to the best in safety equipment and risk minimisation techniques (some sports bike riders also please stick your hand up here). To some – these groups look intimidating and high risk.

I would argue that getting public support but having a bunch of angry guys on bikes turn up loudly at parliament (while no one is there) isn’t going to generate the kind of public buy in required to fix the issue. It’s hard to argue that you can’t afford $500 annual fee when you turn up on a $30,000 toy fitted with $10,000 worth of bling and then start pissing everyone off with noise and anger…

I’m just not convinced and I ride bikes…

[Reckless]

In my humble Opinion
The PUBLIC don't give a shit and don't really matter as they wont generally support us at the front line.
They have their discounts and will take that and run. Joe Bloggs wont come out without a bike and support us.
They will forgive us for blocking the Auckland harbor bridge, or streets around Parliament for a morning or even treat it as some excitement in their dreary day!
This is our fight and I don't expect any practical support from anyone without a bike.
In fact negative support from those high risk activities Hiding from possible extra charges Ie cyclists, MX riders, snow borders, Skiers etc as they should have an ACC charge on their gear/bike/board/Ski purchases. Now that would be fairer now its a risk based system? But it begs the question in this new risk based environment what would they put on a 1000cc bike???? Thats where its wrong its not ACC

The reason the Bikoi worked was
1/- They got the figure always wanted imho
2/- The protest was big enough for the NZ Govt to have to show wider NZ that as the govt in a democracy they couldn't simply ignore that many voters.
3/- They knew that there was a small danger as bikers we could actually step it up a level? IS it now that time?

Personally (and without any research) I think the ACC is a mess? Right from the basic information coming from accident sites.
I'm damn sure it costs more to fix a scooter rider in Jandels that comes off at 80K as it does to fix a 1000cc rider with all the gear in the same accident?
We pay them our ACC dollars to spend all day to present their view of the figures against us and none of us has the time to build a case that might fight it.

If we really want to invest in our future the best thing we could do is all pay $20-$50 bucks and have someone full time (Bronz, New organisation??) research for a year to see if ACC are right or wrong.
We are never going to be together enough for that to happen (and they know it).
ACC are never going to give us full disclosure on what happens from each crash site to their yearly CC based charges.
If we could get that factual base (and ACC weren't actually correct) we could really make a noise!!

Nothing wrong with protest. Without the above we only really have Loud angry protest Left.

[nzspokes]

My thoughts are that this is not a protest. Its a meeting. Government even gave them a venue. But dont sell anything there.

I would have thought something more directed at ACC. Blockade and have sit ins at ACC offices. Or something along those lines.

Random to, dont tell them your coming.:facepalm:

It has to tie up resources.

[merv]

I need to note for the record that BRONZ Auckland have no position on this, and have no knowledge of this event other than what has been posted on this site.

We will discuss it, as far as we know about it, next Wednesday.

Personally I am not clear about the rationale (what is it that is actually being asked, of who ?); and the timing is not ideal.

Welcome back mate, we haven't heard from you in over a year, so good to see you back here. Cheers.

[Hitcher]

Nothing wrong with protest. Without the above we only really have Loud angry protest Left.

But what is the basis of the protest? What's changed?

Have a range of changes to ACC been discussed and agreed by bikers? Has a submission been made to ACC or to its Minister that has been ignored? Has ACC changed the nature of the relationship its has with bikers or has it signalled that change is coming?

Those are largely rhetorical questions. The answer to each is no. On that basis there is no news here and it's going to be hard to get anybody interested, particularly given the timing during an election campaign.

[Trade_nancy]

Has a submission been made to ACC or to its Minister that has been ignored?

I would think the answer to this one is YES Hitcher. I believe a good number of folk have made direct contact by way of letter, email etc with the Minister, ACC and MPs and all have been ignored or been replied to with the dreary blah, blah....we will not have car owners subsidize motorcyclist line...and none have really answered the question as to multiple bike rego being unreasonable.

[TheDemonLord]

Has a submission been made to ACC or to its Minister that has been ignored?

I would think the answer to this one is YES Hitcher. I believe a good number of folk have made direct contact by way of letter, email etc with the Minister, ACC and MPs and all have been ignored or been replied to with the dreary blah, blah....we will not have car owners subsidize motorcyclist line...and none have really answered the question as to multiple bike rego being unreasonable.

you think, you believe - but are you actually sure?

for me I am not aware of BRONZ, but from what I have read through this - it does seem poorly thought out without a definite goal - it seems more like 'we are angry at ACC - raaaaaaah!'

[Trade_nancy]

you think, you believe - but are you actually sure?

No..and am sure of that! But equally - I am not sure that a protest will not succeed.

[Hitcher]

I am not sure that a protest will not succeed.

Successful protests usually strike a chord because they champion a proposition that is reasoned, factual, compelling and articulate. There are exceptions, like those based on outrage. But any solution that successfully quells outrage has to be reasoned, factual, compelling and articulate.

[FLUB]

So I'm protesting that I should get less ACC levy reduction on my two cars so that I can get a bit of reduction on my one bike? I'm thinking I may be better off taking the full car reduction and putting it towards my bike rego. If I add the money I will save by not buying fuel or paying for accommodation for a ride to an empty parliament, I reckon that's my rego paid for another near.

[GDOBSSOR]

BRONZ, please call off this nonsense about riding to Parliament on 1 September, take three deep breaths and start again. Please don’t embarrass yourselves.

What is it that bikers want, and do they want to be taken seriously?
Please start again. There’s no shame in that.

I can tell you now that I am sick to fucking death of paying 420 bucks a year to register my GN250 when my folks have to pay half that, if that, to register their car. I am even more pissed off that the government is thinking of decreasing ACC levies based on 'vehicle safety' - meaning they would define 'vehicle safety'. This would mean that my crappy old 87 GN, even though it is low-powered and doesn't go very fast, would end up having to pay higher levies than almost all cars, and some higher-CC motorbikes, simply because they have better 'safety features' - and the fact that I have forked out for expensive gear, high vis vests, etc not taken into account at all.

From speaking to Ratti, Kim, Byron, etc, it's not as simple as "We're angry at ACC RAAAAHHHH!" BRONZ are here to promote bikers' rights. The government, in offering more ACC benefits for 'safer' vehicles like cars but not vehicles such as motorbikes - especially older ones, are being discriminatory. Motorbikes are more dangerous than cars, but a) car drivers (who have lower ACC levies) are not really educated to look out for motorbikes, so it's not always a biker's fault if they get into an accident, and b) lots of bikers, or so I'd hope, spend money on expensive gear to protect themselves.

[swbarnett]

Motorbikes are more dangerous than cars
Bullshit! Read my sig.

[Voltaire]

Bullshit! Read my sig.

Love your sig, specially the bits about liberty by the two slave owners..... :lol:

[AllanB]

I've been doing my bit - I've not fallen off for many many years. You bastards are costing me plenty.

[Stirts]

I've been doing my bit - I've not fallen off for many many years.

Best you go and touch your wood. Don't want you to be jinxed.

[nerrrd]

I know, lets all go on an organised ride to parliament (or some other landmark in your local municipality), when we get there we can all burn effigies of our number plates (that way we can avoid potential fines by hanging on to the real ones) while chanting "fuck ACC, fuck ACC" (who paid to fix up my partner/relative/friend when they had their accident) etc etc. Meanwhile all the tickets being given to the hundreds of unregistered cars out there (being driven by the drop-kicks on Police 10 seven/Highway Patrol) will continue to clog up the courts.

I'm getting flashbacks to 2009 (?) when I read many threads like this which, once the initial surge of outrage died down, amounted to not very much. I suspect the reason why nobody can agree on an effective means of protest is because there isn't one.

I also suspect these decreases are there to soften the blow for when they bring the 'safety ratings' for cars. Once they're in place they'll slowly turn the heat up on drivers as well (I'm assuming the majority drive the 'least safe' cars). Haven't heard a peep from Labour (I'm assuming?) about making any changes to ACC.

In the meantime I'm not going to be too hard on anyone protesting in any way they think is appropriate, it's a lot easier to complain than it is to act.

[swbarnett]

Love your sig, specially the bits about liberty by the two slave owners..... :lol:

Just because they owned slaves doesn't belittle their views on freedom. Like anyone, they had to learn for themselves that the accepted norms they grew up with needed to change.

From the PBS web site: Like most people of his period, Franklin initially believed that African slaves and their offspring were inferior to white Europeans and that they couldn't be educated. He began to question his beliefs when he visited a school where young African children were being taught. In 1763, he wrote a letter to an English friend where he stated, "I was on the whole much pleased, and from what I then saw, have conceived a higher opinion of the natural capacities of the black race, than I had ever before entertained. Their apprehension seems as quick, their memory as strong, and their docility in every respect equal to that of white children."

"He (Thomas Jefferson) was an opponent of the slave trade, disliked the effects of slavery on society, and believed slavery harmful to both slave and master." - Howe (1997), Making the American Self: Jonathan Edwards to Abraham Lincoln, p. 74

[Voltaire]

Just because they owned slaves doesn't belittle their views on freedom. Like anyone, they had to learn for themselves that the accepted norms they grew up with needed to change.

From the PBS web site: Like most people of his period, Franklin initially believed that African slaves and their offspring were inferior to white Europeans and that they couldn't be educated. He began to question his beliefs when he visited a school where young African children were being taught. In 1763, he wrote a letter to an English friend where he stated, "I was on the whole much pleased, and from what I then saw, have conceived a higher opinion of the natural capacities of the black race, than I had ever before entertained. Their apprehension seems as quick, their memory as strong, and their docility in every respect equal to that of white children."

"He (Thomas Jefferson) was an opponent of the slave trade, disliked the effects of slavery on society, and believed slavery harmful to both slave and master." - Howe (1997), Making the American Self: Jonathan Edwards to Abraham Lincoln, p. 74


In 1807, the British government passed an Act of Parliament abolishing the slave trade throughout the British Empire. Slavery itself would persist in the British colonies until its final abolition in 1838. However, abolitionists would continue campaigning against the international trade of slaves after this date.

Probably why they wanted independence from England, so they could carry on with it for another 60 or so years.
reading about the Vietnam war and how despite only being 12% of the population the AfroAmericans made up 41% of the front line troops.
Liberty my arse.

[swbarnett]

Probably why they wanted independence from England, so they could carry on with it for another 60 or so years.
That may well have been true for some.


reading about the Vietnam war and how despite only being 12% of the population the AfroAmericans made up 41% of the front line troops.
Liberty my arse.
The US (and most, if not all, of the rest of the world) definitely has a long way to go.

The ideal and the actuality don't always coincide.

[Voltaire]

That may well have been true for some.


The US (and most, if not all, of the rest of the world) definitely has a long way to go.

The ideal and the actuality don't always coincide.

True, it still has a long way to go.:facepalm:

[caseye]

Jeez John boy! say what you really mean will ya.
Getting a taste for this intawobble stuff I see.

[FLUB]

I think the best idea I've seen on here is for us all to all pay towards a professional lobbyist team. BMF and MAG in the UK do this very well. Unfortunately BRONZ is not in the same league, in spite of their best intentions. If anything serious ever comes about I will happily support it both financially and with my time, which is the most valuable thing anyone has to offer. But sorry, there are too many sheeple for anything to happen :-(

[SuperMac]

We could stop having crashes.

That'd learn 'em.

Brilliant! That would be ace. It would just need all riders to think and take a few simple actions:
- plan corners, so they don't run out of talent
- expect drivers to pull across on corners - so slow down and prepare for it
- don't think of overtaking in stupid places

Do you think it could happen? No, me neither :(

[swbarnett]

Brilliant! That would be ace. It would just need all riders to think and take a few simple actions:
- plan corners, so they don't run out of talent
- expect drivers to pull across on corners - so slow down and prepare for it
- don't think of overtaking in stupid places

Do you think it could happen? No, me neither :(
There's a very simple answer why not - humans are fallible. Long may this continue. I'm a perfectionist at heart but even I recognise how boring life would be if all human fallibility was removed.

The accident and injury rate for motorcycles is about as low as it's going to get and any attempt to alter rider behaviour on a population wide basis (i.e. anything other than direct one on one mentoring) is futile and counter productive.

[GrayWolf]

Yes, but what's the desired outcome from that protest action? Bikers shouldn't ride for free, but how much it too much, in terms of registration and ACC costs?

Talks about "fairness" may sound nice, but what do they mean?

The biker community needs to decide what it wants based on it analysing all of the issues, not just one or two. It's not hard to do this and it wouldn't take too long. But between now and 1 September is a bit of an ask.

Having lived in the UK during the 'Thatcher years' I was there during the 'Poll tax' fiasco......
by year 3, the local bodies were upping the poll tax to cover the shortfall of the non paying people. It required 2 things to change the law...

MASS non payment, even though many did go to court for non payment...
and
MASS protest......

[James Deuce]

Having lived in the UK during the 'Thatcher years' I was there during the 'Poll tax' fiasco......
by year 3, the local bodies were upping the poll tax to cover the shortfall of the non paying people. It required 2 things to change the law...

MASS non payment, even though many did go to court for non payment...
and
MASS protest......
The number of people protesting over Poll Tax were probably two orders of magnitude greater as a percentage of population than the number of holders of class 6 licenses in NZ let alone active riders.

Using that as a definition of "Mass" motorcyclists will do nothing but aggrieve an already aggrieved public and bureaucracy. Their stance is we deserve our punishment for being high users of recovery and medical services as a percentage of the population.

Having a bitch about it being "unfair" that private motor vehicle users get a levy reduction and motorcyclists don't simply means that we've failed to make an impact on how data is collected and manipulated statistically and we've failed to make any inroads on the arguments that show that modern motorcycles can make significant contributions to improving congestion and are starting to take emissions management seriously. Couple that with ABS being adopted as a standard fitment (except in places like NZ where the conservative user base still thinks that dropping a bike is the best way to avoid an accident) along with optional traction control and engine management modes and you have some significant potential safety gains to communicate to the aformentioned public and bureaucracy.

Instead, BRONZ have seemingly planned a wahhh-fest instead of trying to engage with with a bureacracy who is only interested in how they can curb what we cost taxpayers.

I agree that we need professionals running the show. Someone with a doctorate in Transport Politics would be a good start.

[Katman]

There's a very simple answer why not - humans are fallible. Long may this continue.

What a celebration of mediocrity.

[Crasherfromwayback]

We could stop having crashes.

That'd learn 'em.

Lol. Good luck with that mate!

[swbarnett]

What a celebration of mediocrity.
Not at all. I love it when people excel. However, expecting people to be perfect all the time spells the death knell of all that makes life interesting.

Would you rather live in a world of automatons? Or where every action that may suffer even slightly from human fallibility is done by a robot?

[Katman]

Not at all. I love it when people excel. However, expecting people to be perfect all the time spells the death knell of all that makes life interesting.

Would you rather live in a world of automatons? Or where every action that may suffer even slightly from human fallibility is done by a robot?

That's precisely the attitude that encourages people to not bother trying to improve themselves.

Like I said - celebrating mediocrity.

[TheDemonLord]

That's precisely the attitude that encourages people to not bother trying to improve themselves.

Like I said - celebrating mediocrity.

Holy Shit!

I'm agreeing with Katman!

[swbarnett]

That's precisely the attitude that encourages people to not bother trying to improve themselves.

Like I said - celebrating mediocrity.
Celebrating mediocrity and accepting that humans aren't perfect and never will be are two totally different things. I am definitely squarely on the latter side.

It doesn't surprise me in the slightest that you have trouble with the distinction. I say that with no malice as I've had the same trouble myself.

Yes, the more you expect, the more you'll get. Just don't expect a pig to fly under it's own steam.

I've fought with my own perfectionism my whole life. If you expect absolute perfection you will for ever be disappointed. By all means expect excellence, just not perfection.

[Katman]

By all means expect excellence, just not perfection.

You're the only one using the word 'perfection'.

[swbarnett]

You're the only one using the word 'perfection'.
Every time someone makes a comment along the lines of "just stop crashing" it makes me cringe and think "yeah, if only it was that simple". Comments like that show a complete lack of appreciation of what it means to be human and at least implies an expectation of perfection.

[blackdog]

Did the rethink ever occur? Or will there be 50 impotent bikers at parliament showing our resolve as a community tomorrow?

[bluninja]

Did the rethink ever occur? Or will there be 50 impotent bikers at parliament showing our resolve as a community tomorrow?

Wow, they're gonna do a twofer.....BRONZ ride and kick off Blue September :innocent:

[BMWST?]

The number of people protesting over Poll Tax were probably two orders of magnitude greater as a percentage of population than the number of holders of class 6 licenses in NZ let alone active riders.

Using that as a definition of "Mass" motorcyclists will do nothing but aggrieve an already aggrieved public and bureaucracy. Their stance is we deserve our punishment for being high users of recovery and medical services as a percentage of the population.

Having a bitch about it being "unfair" that private motor vehicle users get a levy reduction and motorcyclists don't simply means that we've failed to make an impact on how data is collected and manipulated statistically and we've failed to make any inroads on the arguments that show that modern motorcycles can make significant contributions to improving congestion and are starting to take emissions management seriously. Couple that with ABS being adopted as a standard fitment (except in places like NZ where the conservative user base still thinks that dropping a bike is the best way to avoid an accident) along with optional traction control and engine management modes and you have some significant potential safety gains to communicate to the aformentioned public and bureaucracy.

Instead, BRONZ have seemingly planned a wahhh-fest instead of trying to engage with with a bureacracy who is only interested in how they can curb what we cost taxpayers.

I agree that we need professionals running the show. Someone with a doctorate in Transport Politics would be a good start.


Did the rethink ever occur? Or will there be 50 impotent bikers at parliament showing our resolve as a community tomorrow?

At least they are trying to do something.It is a (mis)step in the right direction imho.It will work in some way to either go forward with more effective lobbying and protest ,or it wont so we will be no worse off.But it is part of the democratic process
Impotent?Surely the impotent ones are the ones who are bleating but not actully doing anything about it.