Braided lines, are 2 better than 1?

[Premature Accelerato]

I have recently fitted new rotors and pads to my bike and am thinking about fitting new braided lines while I am at it. The bike is to be used for pretty much trackdays only so would obviously benefit from the change but my question is, are 2 seperate lines from the master cylinder direct to each caliper a better option than the standard fitment of 1 line to the R/H caliper then the loop to the L/H caliper. What change in feel could I expect, does the master cylinder piston have enough capacity to do what it was obvioulsly not intended to do when it was designed. Any thoughts or experiences would be appreciated.

[Grubber]

One line to each is spot on. Brakes will feel harder with less foce needed on handle

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk

[spanner spinner]

two lines won't make any difference to the master cylinder ratio as you are only moving fluid in the lines. You could put a 10 meter long brake line on and it still wouldn't make any difference to how the hydraulic system works as the fluid entering the top of the line will only displace the same amount at the bottom of the line.

The main benefit to fitting two lines is that it gets rid of a joint in the system and this joint can be a air trap. As the lines both run from the callipers up to the master cylinder with no extra joint it makes it easier to bleed the brakes.

[98tls]

Your choice really the result will be the same either way despite the old fisher women tales...

[Katman]

One line to each is spot on. Brakes will feel harder with less foce needed on handle


You don't really understand hydraulics, do you?

[willytheekid]

You don't really understand hydraulics, do you?

:confused:...I know what NOT to do wiv Hydraulics
300031
:facepalm:



...mean while in chch
300032

:D

[GrayWolf]

I have recently fitted new rotors and pads to my bike and am thinking about fitting new braided lines while I am at it. The bike is to be used for pretty much trackdays only so would obviously benefit from the change but my question is, are 2 seperate lines from the master cylinder direct to each caliper a better option than the standard fitment of 1 line to the R/H caliper then the loop to the L/H caliper. What change in feel could I expect, does the master cylinder piston have enough capacity to do what it was obvioulsly not intended to do when it was designed. Any thoughts or experiences would be appreciated.

Only bike I have owned with 'dual lines' is my ZZR1100, prev' owner did a brake upgrade....rotors, lines and master cylinders.... Not sure why? but he used the clutch and brake reservoirs from a Honda CB (r)???? 1000. I think the Honda brake master cyl' can displace more fluid at the piston than the OEM kwaka one.... Dont know if that give better pressure or not...... but ????

[Drew]

Biggest advantage to seperate lines from the master is cooling of the fluid. But with good fluid and pads, ya need to be fucken fast to notice the effects. Even then, I'd bet good money any fade was down to a fault someplace else.

[Akzle]

Braided lines, are 2 better than 1

no, you're not thinking of braided lines, you're thinking of boobs.
two is mos. def. better than one.

[AllanB]

Agree regarding the boobs, but if you are at the beach in the surf and the lovely next to you pops a titty in a wave and she does not notice it is fine by me.

Just what is the acceptable time one is allowed before innocently pointing it out to her?

Probably asking the wrong people, half of you would ask her if it was OK for them to 'free' the other side.

[DEATH_INC.]

I believe just before someone else notices is the correct time :shifty:

As for the brake lines, I run a single with a loop over, there is less line length, so less weight and less capacity change from any stretching, small tho it may be.
Never found cooling to be an issue, tho I am slow....

[Grubber]

You don't really understand hydraulics, do you?

Actually i do. This has been recommended by a specialist so i wouldn't get too smart if i was you. And it works and it's very true.
Google if ya like but would do it before you come on here with the smarts next time dick!

[Akzle]

Actually i do. This has been recommended by a specialist so i wouldn't get too smart if i was you. And it works and it's very true.
Google if ya like but would do it before you come on here with the smarts next time dick!

'when you get that feeling, that everyone around you is a dick, its probably not everyone around you....'

[Drew]

Actually i do. This has been recommended by a specialist so i wouldn't get too smart if i was you. And it works and it's very true.
Google if ya like but would do it before you come on here with the smarts next time dick!

You're a tool.

[Erelyes]

Personally I'd just copy what the MotoGP dudes do and call it a day

Sorry, I meant spraying champagne over hot podium girls, what was the question again?

[bogan]

Actually i do. This has been recommended by a specialist so i wouldn't get too smart if i was you. And it works and it's very true.
Google if ya like but would do it before you come on here with the smarts next time dick!

Specialist window lickers don't count, you muppet.

[Mike.Gayner]

Actually i do. This has been recommended by a specialist so i wouldn't get too smart if i was you. And it works and it's very true.
Google if ya like but would do it before you come on here with the smarts next time dick!

Wow. What a retard.

[imdying]

Actually i do. This has been recommended by a specialist so i wouldn't get too smart if i was you. And it works and it's very true.No, it does not, and you are welcome to research Pascal's law to learn why. Turns out the French haven't always been useless pieces of shit... fancy that. BTW, it has not been recommended by a specialist, it has recommended by an idiot masquerading as a specialist, which is very prevalent in the motor trade in New Zealand so be aware. Be a man, name this person, we all want to know who this specialist is.

BTW, over the guard is banned by some racing associations, so you see twin lines on race bikes. It's odd to find braided lines without a plastic coating, so any cooling effect would be negligible.

[Katman]

Actually i do. This has been recommended by a specialist so i wouldn't get too smart if i was you. And it works and it's very true.
Google if ya like but would do it before you come on here with the smarts next time dick!

You know what they say about remaining silent and being thought an idiot......?

[Akzle]

Actually i do. This has been recommended by a specialist so i wouldn't get too smart if i was you. And it works and it's very true.
Google if ya like but would do it before you come on here with the smarts next time dick!

this was totally worth posting.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oJ8tXeUDP8

[AllanB]

The plastic coating protects the bike and most importantly the line if it rubs.

Two from the master, one into two (like most stock) or a single with a flip over the guard makes no difference to the brake pressure or performance.

The double line set from the master (or 'race' line) is often slightly cheaper.

[Grubber]

this was totally worth posting.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oJ8tXeUDP8

I guess it would be if this is all you spend ya time with!

[Grubber]

You know what they say about remaining silent and being thought an idiot......?

That's why i don't pay much attention to you!

[nzspokes]

Actually i do. This has been recommended by a specialist so i wouldn't get too smart if i was you. And it works and it's very true.
Google if ya like but would do it before you come on here with the smarts next time dick!

Who is the specialist and what is the theory behind it?

[Grubber]

Who is the specialist and what is the theory behind it?

Doug Hayes! Now retired i believe.
Theory... 1/ Direct lines provide better balance of pressure thus better feel.
2/ Easier to bleed and again no softness in feel.
3/Less pressure required for more braking.
As long as Master Cylinder and Calliper all matched correctly.
The actuals involved are minimal for some parts but for extreme top end, this was recommended.

Wouldn't be saying that 1 split line isn't adequate but 2 is even better.
When i did mine under this recommendation it was certainly a lot better.

[Katman]

Doug Hayes! Now retired i believe.
Theory... 1/ Direct lines provide better balance of pressure thus better feel.
2/ Easier to bleed and again no softness in feel.
3/Less pressure required for more braking.
As long as Master Cylinder and Calliper all matched correctly.
The actuals involved are minimal for some parts but for extreme top end, this was recommended.

Wouldn't be saying that 1 split line isn't adequate but 2 is even better.
When i did mine under this recommendation it was certainly a lot better.

Refer post #5.

[Grubber]

Refer post #5.

Instead of being an arse, how bout ya spit out your logic.
I'm all ears!
Haven't heard you offer anything of any benefit yet!

[Katman]

Instead of being an arse, how bout ya spit out your logic.
I'm all ears!
Haven't heard you offer anything of any benefit yet!

Educate yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_law

[Grubber]

Educate yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_law

How bout you try and educate me Kockman.
Haven't yet heard one form of education yet, just crappy little innuendos.

[Katman]

How bout you try and educate me Kockman.
Haven't yet heard one form of education yet, just crappy little innuendos.

Getting upset isn't going to change the laws of fluid mechanics.

[Grubber]

Getting upset isn't going to change the laws of fluid mechanics.

Me upset??? Take more than you tiger.
My point is, that you have a lot to say without actually saying anything of any use.
Try telling us all what you think you know, might be worth a listen....or not!

[Grubber]

Educate yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_law

Oh and this actually doesn't take into account the lines that may or not be expandable. Hence why we use braided lines.

[Mike.Gayner]

Just stop. You're making an ass of yourself.

[imdying]

Oh and this actually doesn't take into account the lines that may or not be expandable. Hence why we use braided lines.Yes, it does. If the lines were to expand, the pressure drop in the system would be the same everywhere.


Pressure exerted anywhere in a confined incompressible fluid is transmitted equally in all directions throughout the fluid such that the pressure variations remain the sameWhich part are you having trouble with?

[Katman]

Oh and this actually doesn't take into account the lines that may or not be expandable. Hence why we use braided lines.

But that's not what you were initially suggesting.

You were suggesting that two lengths of braided line from the master cylinder to the calipers would exert greater pressure than an arrangement of shorter braided hoses.

As many have pointed out to you, the laws of fluid mechanics proves you wrong.

[Erelyes]

One line to each is spot on. Brakes will feel harder with less foce needed on handle

For a split second upon brake application (or upon squeezing harder), you're expanding the lines with the force applied as well as expanding the pistons; however you can be sure that once the lines reach their limit of expansion, the full force is then applied to the calipers. As such - any change to the lines will only reduce the latency between application of force on the lever, and that force being applied to the caliper pistons.

The brakes may 'feel' harder, but this is an illusion caused by decreased lever travel. Your brain goes - I'm braking the same yet the lever doesn't travel as far, the brakes must be better - right?!

Reducing latency is probably quite nice, making them more 'responsive' or 'feel' better, but ultimately you can brake just as well either way.

Now play nicely :hug:

[Grubber]

For a split second upon brake application (or upon squeezing harder), you're expanding the lines with the force applied as well as expanding the pistons; however you can be sure that once the lines reach their limit of expansion, the full force is then applied to the calipers. As such - any change to the lines will only reduce the latency between application of force on the lever, and that force being applied to the caliper pistons.

The brakes may 'feel' harder, but this is an illusion caused by decreased lever travel. Your brain goes - I'm braking the same yet the lever doesn't travel as far, the brakes must be better - right?!

Reducing latency is probably quite nice, making them more 'responsive' or 'feel' better, but ultimately you can brake just as well either way.

Now play nicely :hug:

I would agree with that. The expansion is the last bit of extreme i guess. Not sure how you would describe. Brakes are generally fine with every day use but if you wanted perfect with no leftover, braided twin lines would be the shiz!

Nice to see someone with some half pie decent input, cheers for that.

[imdying]

if you wanted perfect with no leftover, braided twin lines would be the shiz!Goodness, you're still as ignorant as when the thread began... no helping some I guess :brick:

[Premature Accelerato]

Being the original poster, I think I will just sit quietly in the corner :-)

[bogan]

Doug Hayes! Now retired i believe.
Theory... 1/ Direct lines provide better balance of pressure thus better feel.
2/ Easier to bleed and again no softness in feel.
3/Less pressure required for more braking.
As long as Master Cylinder and Calliper all matched correctly.
The actuals involved are minimal for some parts but for extreme top end, this was recommended.

Wouldn't be saying that 1 split line isn't adequate but 2 is even better.
When i did mine under this recommendation it was certainly a lot better.

1/ only if there is restriction in the lines which could cause a pressure buildup (in a functional braking system there are no such restrictions).
2/ easier to bleed, but more softness in feel due to additional line length available for expansion
3/ completely false, piston pressure is related only to master cyl diameter and brake piston diameter (assuming functional braking system again)


Oh and this actually doesn't take into account the lines that may or not be expandable. Hence why we use braided lines.

The implementation of that rule must take that into account, through pressure/volume changes, it is a trivial matter if you know the force/expansion curve of the tube. It is indeed why we use braided lines.


I would agree with that. The expansion is the last bit of extreme i guess. Not sure how you would describe. Brakes are generally fine with every day use but if you wanted perfect with no leftover, braided twin lines would be the shiz!

Wrong, more line length is more expansion, minimising line length and using the most rigid lines will give the best feel.
Think about it, which takes longer to build up pressure, blowing up one balloon at a time, or blowing up two balloons at once?

[bogan]

Being the original poster, I think I will just sit quietly in the corner :-)

Nah mate, sit in two corners at once, you'll be twice as quiet :2thumbsup

[imdying]

2/ easier to bleed, but more softness in feel due to additional line length available for expansionEven that is hogwash, either system is easy enough to bleed given correct technique... and using anything else doesn't make a lick of sense.

[bogan]

Even that is hogwash, either system is easy enough to bleed given correct technique... and using anything else doesn't make a lick of sense.

*given correct technique; now how likely do you think a guy who reckons tube size changes pressure is to use correct technique... or lick anything other than windows?

[Drew]

Getting upset isn't going to change the laws of fluid mechanics.I would have said "fluid dynamics", but there's no reason to think that makes it correct.


*given correct technique; now how likely do you think a guy who reckons tube size changes pressure is to use correct technique... or lick anything other than windows?
Fuck ya! I wanted to use the window licker bit.

If anyone could feel the difference between one meter of braided line versus two, they should be riding a fucken GP bike and getting paid handsomely for their efforts.

Line expansion on even OEM rubber lines is minimal to the extreme, they just break down faster and are less efficient in radiating the heat from the fluid.

I have never seen a rule about race bikes that suggests individual lines are mandatory. If they were required, it should also be a requirement to have "fuses" (look them up, they're uuuber fucken cool) as close to the master as possible.

[Katman]

I would have said "fluid dynamics".....

A sub-group of fluid mechanics.

[Drew]

A sub-group of fluid mechanics.

Learn something every day they reckon. "Dynamic" must just sound more like "rule" to me or summat.

Anyhoo, I'm loving not being the one arguing on the losing side of an argument for once.

[bogan]

Fuck ya! I wanted to use the window licker bit.

If anyone could feel the difference between one meter of braided line versus two, they should be riding a fucken GP bike and getting paid handsomely for their efforts.

Line expansion on even OEM rubber lines is minimal to the extreme, they just break down faster and are less efficient in radiating the heat from the fluid.

I have never seen a rule about race bikes that suggests individual lines are mandatory. If they were required, it should also be a requirement to have "fuses" (look them up, they're uuuber fucken cool) as close to the master as possible.

Maaaattee, there's fucking plenty of window lickers to go around, don't be getting all antsy about stepping on me turf...

[Big Dog]

I would agree with that. The expansion is the last bit of extreme i guess. Not sure how you would describe. Brakes are generally fine with every day use but if you wanted perfect with no leftover, braided twin lines would be the shiz!

Nice to see someone with some half pie decent input, cheers for that.

To be fair any time you give a stock setup that has seen a bit of age or mileage a freshen up of liquid, lines and pads you will see a marked difference. Unless you really screwed the pooch it will feel better even if you have used lower quality kit. The only real basis to say it was better from an anecdotal standpoint to have 2 lines over one is because you tried both back to back and felt or measured a difference.

I have seen bike mags bleat on about two likes are better than one because if they are equal in length then exactly the same force
Is applied to both callipers at all times due to identical "flexion" (if there is even such a word) of the hoses. That sounds like that is easy to measure huh?
These are the same magazines that have advertisements for these types of setup. I have also seen a brake special by one of
The titles mentioned that stated you would need some very fancy equipment to tell them apart and the only good reason for two lines is if a single line would be more prone to fowling, but that the most common reason for two is to make their bike look the part.

Ultimately buy what you like for your bike. If you're good enough for a difference that small to be that big a deal a professional will make a recommendation and you'll do a few laps with a data logger before someone else pays.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[BlackSheepLogic]

The double line set from the master (or 'race' line) is often slightly cheaper.

Not sure about one vrs two from a cost perspective if you are doing custom lines.

Using a single line pre-made kits specifically for the bike are easier to find and cheaper than doing customs.

[p.dath]

Educate yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_law

Pretty hard to argue with that. That's the bugger with facts.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Agree regarding the boobs, but if you are at the beach in the surf and the lovely next to you pops a titty in a wave and she does not notice it is fine by me.

Just what is the acceptable time one is allowed before innocently pointing it out to her?

Probably asking the wrong people, half of you would ask her if it was OK for them to 'free' the other side.

or pull my tiny willy out and start jerkin' its only tiny cos its COLD alright?

[HenryDorsetCase]

Pretty hard to argue with that. That's the bugger with facts.

Today I learned how hydraulic systems work


If a U-tube is filled with water and pistons are placed at each end, pressure exerted against the left piston will be transmitted throughout the liquid and against the bottom of the right piston. (The pistons are simply "plugs" that can slide freely but snugly inside the tube.) The pressure that the left piston exerts against the water will be exactly equal to the pressure the water exerts against the right piston. Suppose the tube on the right side is made wider and a piston of a larger area is used; for example, the piston on the right has 50 times the area of the piston on the left. If a 1 N load is placed on the left piston, an additional pressure due to the weight of the load is transmitted throughout the liquid and up against the larger piston. The difference between force and pressure is important: the additional pressure is exerted against the entire area of the larger piston. Since there is 50 times the area, 50 times as much force is exerted on the larger piston. Thus, the larger piston will support a 50 N load - fifty times the load on the smaller piston.

[vifferman]

To be fair any time you give a stock setup that has seen a bit of age or mileage a freshen up of liquid, lines and pads you will see a marked difference. Yeah. Doesn't necessarily mean for the better though (performance wise). When I had my FahrtSturm, I changed the standard rubbery lines for braided ones (twice! the first ones weren't WOF-friendly), overhauled the calipers (a bit fraught, given BlueWank Honda don't carry ANY spares, so I had to import piston seals). I found that although the overhauled brakes looked better, and braking was better, the feel took some getting used to, as the lack of any flex felt 'wooden' compared to the standard rubber lines. This is probably the reason (well... that, and laziness/cost) that I haven't bothered to change the DCBS system on the VFR for a lighter, uncoupled, braided system. Plus I kinda like the DCBS, as braking on gravel or greasy surfaces using the brake pedal works very nicely, ta!

[Banditbandit]

If anyone could feel the difference between one meter of braided line versus two, they should be riding a fucken GP bike and getting paid handsomely for their efforts.

Why - thank you Drew. I didn't believe I was that good ... (really, I have only experienced the difference between one rubber line with an extension or two braided lines).


Line expansion on even OEM rubber lines is minimal to the extreme, they just break down faster and are less efficient in radiating the heat from the fluid.


Hmmm .. I recently fitted braided lines to both of my bikes as and what a hell of a difference.

I did it because I thought it would give me better braking, and it definitely did that. I came to the first major corner on my usual route home, touched the brake as normal - and the bike nearly stopped dead .... a lot less pressure required. That means In a real emergency the bike will stop a lot faster without having to haul on the lever.

On the front I used two lines from the master cylinder (One to each side - if you know Suzuki brake lines, they drop from the master cylinder to the right-hand caliper, with an extension over the mudguard to the other caliper.) A mate pointed out that you could feel the shift on the lip around (where the rivets are) the brake rotor and the rest of the mounting unit on the right hand side, but not on the left, indicating that there was more braking pressure on the right than on the left ... causing the right hand rotor to distort a little more than the left

I've pointed this out to the Suzie riders too ...

Anyway - the braided lines are a HUGE improvement .. I won't argue physics or any of that shit .. I just now they are HUGELY better ...

I recommend two braided lines from the master cylinder - one to each caliper ..

[F5 Dave]

Okay. . . It is the AMA that requires 2 line settup on race bikes I'm pretty sure. The Suzuki over the guard setup is clean and cheap as no union boxes. Suzuki do cheap.

The issue is that the loop is easier to get a tiny bit of air in as it's at the top of the system with no bleed point. That was the AMAs rational I guess not every race bike is going to have new fluid freshly bled like they should.

I'd bet half the race grid at most any meeting would have fluid a year old and at club level there would be a good handful that was same fluid as came from the factory no matter the age of the bike.



Two lines will increase braking pressure by 20% but only if you use copper crush washers and 6.0 brake fluid.



Ok that last bit is a troll

[Grumph]

Okay. . . It is the AMA that requires 2 line settup on race bikes I'm pretty sure. The Suzuki over the guard setup is clean and cheap as no union boxes. Suzuki do cheap.

The issue is that the loop is easier to get a tiny bit of air in as it's at the top of the system with no bleed point. That was the AMAs rational I guess not every race bike is going to have new fluid freshly bled like they should.

I'd bet half the race grid at most any meeting would have fluid a year old and at club level there would be a good handful that was same fluid as came from the factory no matter the age of the bike.



Two lines will increase braking pressure by 20% but only if you use copper crush washers and 6.0 brake fluid.



Ok that last bit is a troll

The bloody yanks are anal - have a look at the AHRMA and AMA requirements for lockwiring some time. Personally I use two lines from the master because I'm old and lazy and they're a shitload easier to bleed properly....

[Motu]

although the overhauled brakes looked better, and braking was better, the feel took some getting used to, as the lack of any flex felt 'wooden' compared to the standard rubber lines.

That's why rubber hoses are used in stock systems, to give ''feel'' to the brakes. Back in the days of rod operated rear brakes if they were a bit savage, we'd put a kink in the rod for a bit more feel...and they wouldn't lock up at a touch of the pedal.

[F5 Dave]

Anyone that remembers 80s Yams will have noticed the feeling go totally wooden with braided lines. The master cylinder size accounting for a bunch of flex in the lines that only got worse with a few years.

They would have benefited from a size smaller master size to get some lever travel back, and usefully some more power.

[vifferman]

The issue is that the loop is easier to get a tiny bit of air in as it's at the top of the system with no bleed point.
From memory (it was over 10 years ago) that was a problem on the Firestorm too, so replacing the stock set up with braided lines made them MUCH easier to bleed.
VFR is easy to bleed - I just pay someone else to do it. After 40 years, I'm kinda over doing much of my own car/bike maintenance myself, and (almost) comfortable with paying ridiculous amounts of money for other people to get greasy hands and skinned knuckles. Still happy with the 'interesting stuff', like electrical work, customising, etc.

[nzspokes]

From memory (it was over 10 years ago) that was a problem on the Firestorm too, so replacing the stock set up with braided lines made them MUCH easier to bleed.


Yeah they suck to bleed stock. Ive got braided lines for mine, just have to get the time to fit em. And get some decent pads before my next track day.

[bogan]

Yeah they suck to bleed stock. Ive got braided lines for mine, just have to get the time to fit em. And get some decent pads before my next track day.

Get some HH sintered goodness and take half a day to do the whole job right, will feel like a whole new front end :Punk: