Slip-on cans for LAMS bikes?

[badassblake]

Hey team. I read that any modification to a bikes performance will render it ineligible for LAMS approval. I am in the market (sadly) for a LAMS bike, but some of them are pretty damn underpowered, so have been contemplating a new can as an option for a tiny increase in performance and a nice increase in sound. Obviously all figures would vary from bike to bike and can to can, but is there an average percentage you could expect from a higher priced slip on muffler, eg a yoshi or Akrapovic? Are we talking 5%? Surely a little 250 with 22kw wouldn't become a superbike with a slip on exhaust, or is that actually how LTSA sees it? Has anyone had any experience with this?
Cheers in advance

[TheDemonLord]

Hey team. I read that any modification to a bikes performance will render it ineligible for LAMS approval. I am in the market (sadly) for a LAMS bike, but some of them are pretty damn underpowered, so have been contemplating a new can as an option for a tiny increase in performance and a nice increase in sound. Obviously all figures would vary from bike to bike and can to can, but is there an average percentage you could expect from a higher priced slip on muffler, eg a yoshi or Akrapovic? Are we talking 5%? Surely a little 250 with 22kw wouldn't become a superbike with a slip on exhaust, or is that actually how LTSA sees it? Has anyone had any experience with this?
Cheers in advance

Some of what I am going to say is conjecture, others is repeating what I have heard.

I think Modifying 250cc bikes is fine - the problem is with the bigger LAMS bikes (like my GSX650FU - which aint underpowered) is that any changes to the bike/engine that increase the power will mean the bike will need to be re-tested for LAMS compliance - to make sure it stays below the rule of:

"a maximum power-to-weight ratio of 150 kilowatts per tonne (the power is that specified by the manufacturer and the weight is the weight specified by the manufacturer plus 90kgs for the rider and riding gear);"

So in theory - you could modify your bike, take it to a Dyno, get the and then apply to get it re-added the LAMS list - but tbh, the cost and effort isn't worth it.

My advise - get a bigger LAMS bike - my GSX650FU is plenty powerful until you get to 7000 RPM

[Mike.Gayner]

Demonlord, that's not correct. Modifying any LAMS bike (including a 250) in a way that changes its power to weight ratio (to any extent) makes the bike no longer LAMS compliant. Changing to a slip-on will reduce weight and increase power, and even though that power increase may only be a quarter of one horsepower, it still makes the bike no longer compliant.

[Tazz]

Demonlord, that's not correct. Modifying any LAMS bike (including a 250) in a way that changes its power to weight ratio (to any extent) makes the bike no longer LAMS compliant. Changing to a slip-on will reduce weight and increase power, and even though that power increase may only be a quarter of one horsepower, it still makes the bike no longer compliant.

x 2.

Would I do it? Yes. Would it be legal? No.

It is written very clearly.

[TheDemonLord]

Demonlord, that's not correct. Modifying any LAMS bike (including a 250) in a way that changes its power to weight ratio (to any extent) makes the bike no longer LAMS compliant. Changing to a slip-on will reduce weight and increase power, and even though that power increase may only be a quarter of one horsepower, it still makes the bike no longer compliant.

The way I intepret the rule on the NZTA website is that its only the 251 - 660 are prohibited from being modded (could be wrong here) however as a hypothetical - if you put say Aluminium brake levers on your 250 - the several grams you have saved HAS changed the power to weight - so I don't see how it could be enforceable.

[nodrog]

..... I am in the market (sadly) for a LAMS bike, but some of them are pretty damn underpowered....

No shit Sherlock, that's the whole point.

[Drew]

I don't think it is written that clearly regarding the 250cc bikes. The only mention of them is the excluded bikes.

The rest aren't on the list, they're just learner legal.

[Mike.Gayner]

I disagree that it's not clear. I can find the actual regulation right now (why is it so damn hard to find?!), but from the NZTA website (emphasis mine)


Any motorcycle modified in a way that increases its power-to-weight ratio is no longer LAMS-compliant, regardless of whether it appears on the list.

http://www.nzta.govt.nz/licence/getting/motorcycles/approved-motorcycles.html

Pretty unambiguous. Are the rules a bit silly? Yes. Are they a shit load smarter than what existed a few years ago? Absolutely.

[Drew]

I disagree that it's not clear. I can find the actual regulation right now (why is it so damn hard to find?!), but from the NZTA website (emphasis mine)



http://www.nzta.govt.nz/licence/getting/motorcycles/approved-motorcycles.html

Pretty unambiguous. Are the rules a bit silly? Yes. Are they a shit load smarter than what existed a few years ago? Absolutely.

A shit load smarter?

No. Oh sure, learner squids can't make it to 215kph anymore. They can have a whirl on an IT465 as a bike to learn the better percentage of their skills on.

The new rule opens the market a lot, but it makes no more sense.

[nzspokes]

(like my GSX650FU - which aint underpowered)

Yes it is, but that's the whole point.

[bogan]

Pretty unambiguous. Are the rules a bit silly? Yes. Are they a shit load smarter than what existed a few years ago? Absolutely.

Pretty much irrelevant too, as what is written on nzta is not law; it is nzta's interpretation of the law, one they often get right of course, but still not law in its own right. Last I saw the actual law as it is written, it was very ambiguous and I erred on the side of stick a blower on your two-fiddy mate.


Oh sure, learner squids can't make it to 215kph anymore.

Fucking accurate speedos, dropped the arse out of the high performance 250 market at least as much as lams :bleh:

[Drew]

Pretty much irrelevant too, as what is written on nzta is not law; it is nzta's interpretation of the law, one they often get right of course, but still not law in its own right. Last I saw the actual law as it is written, it was very ambiguous and I erred on the side of stick a blower on your two-fiddy mate.



Fucking accurate speedos, dropped the arse out of the high performance 250 market at least as much as lams :bleh:

Un restricted RGV or NSR is good for over 200.

[Tazz]

A 250 is a LAMS bike. It comes under the umbrella, it just doesn't need specific mentioning because there is a blanket mention on them all. If they are not banned and are 250cc or under they are fine because that is the way the LAMS system works.

Easy, you'd think. :crazy:

It gets confusing when you treat them as something separate, which seems to be the case. They are not, they are LAMS approved (or banned) bikes.

“任何修改增加了摩托车的动力使得它不再LAMS标准。”

If it was written like that, you'd have a case, but...

"Any modification which increases the power of a motorcycle makes it no longer LAMS compliant."

If you are arguing about this with a cuntstable on the side of the road next to your supercharged Ninja 250, I don't like your chances with things worded like this whether is it NZTA website material or not...

If you think a slip on is worth the risk (and it seems pretty minimal risk to me), I'd take it. If not I'd get a better 250...or a bigger bike.

[AllanB]

Best way to improve the performance is for you to go on a diet.


It's a LAMS bike - instead of wasting coin on a can spend the money on a decent rider course that speeds up getting your full so you can purchase a gruntier bike.

[mossy1200]

Demonlord, that's not correct. Modifying any LAMS bike (including a 250) in a way that changes its power to weight ratio (to any extent) makes the bike no longer LAMS compliant. Changing to a slip-on will reduce weight and increase power, and even though that power increase may only be a quarter of one horsepower, it still makes the bike no longer compliant.

Its not that simple.

The formula is.

Factory claimed horsepower less 20% due to bullshitz and factory claimed weight plus 14kg due to bullshitz plus rider weight (60kg)against guber ment calculations plus new pipe variation of 2% power increase is still under 150/1000 so legally you can claim the pipe made the bike fatter and reduced its power rather than increased it and when it was weighed and dyno tested the new figures would confirm this as fact...........unless the bike is built lately to be lams compliant and the figures have been understated rather than overstated.

So the correct answer is the bike seemed to have a lot more top end power with the original pipe and im thinking of putting it back on again.

[TheDemonLord]

Yes it is, but that's the whole point.

I meant compared to my 250 Hornet :p

[BlackSheepLogic]

If it was me I would ditch the "L-plate" and buy something that meet my needs. Ride with a low profile, it's not hard to get a small bike for a couple of hours when required.

Also, bigger bikes are better on the open road, it more relaxed riding , much more stable in the wind/traffic and the larger bikes don't have to be abused as much.




Its not that simple.

The formula is.

Factory claimed horsepower less 20% due to bullshitz and factory claimed weight plus 14kg due to bullshitz plus rider weight (60kg)against guber ment calculations plus new pipe variation of 2% power increase is still under 150/1000 so legally you can claim the pipe made the bike fatter and reduced its power rather than increased it and when it was weighed and dyno tested the new figures would confirm this as fact...........unless the bike is built lately to be lams compliant and the figures have been understated rather than overstated.

So the correct answer is the bike seemed to have a lot more top end power with the original pipe and im thinking of putting it back on again.

[Erelyes]

This (http://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/1999/0100/latest/DLM281347.html) simply says one must ride an 'Approved' motorcycle.....

The definitions under that act say

approved motorcycle means the make and model of any motorcycle that�

(a) has an engine capacity of 250 cc or less, unless the Agency has prohibited the use of that make and model of motorcycle by notice published on the Agency's Internet site; or

(b) has an engine capacity of more than 250 cc but not more than 660 cc and a power-to-weight ratio of not more than 150 kilowatts per tonne and is approved for use by the Agency by notice published on the Agency's Internet site

As I see it the law doesn't prohibit modifications per se - what it does do is give carte blanche for NZTA to 'approve' or 'not approve' any motorcycle they see fit (italicised). Hence their putting up a statement on their website that 'Any motorcycle modified to increase power-to-weight is NOT approved'. Both a) and )b are italicised, so it applies to 0-660cc, not just over 250's.

It's a messy way to do it, it'd be far preferable for the 'no modifications' rule to just be written into the law....

Added to which:

The officer obviously has no way of establishing the weight and power of the bike roadside
I'm not sure whether onus of proof is on the Police or on the rider
This may sound dumb but it doesn't specify if multiple modifications are considered separately, or in combination (important though!)
It doesn't specify whether the 'increased' power-to-weight is an increase from the metrics of the actual bike in question before modifications, or what the manufacturer quotes for that model


If the cop is nice at the time and you think you are legal I'd explain why (i.e. slipon doesn't change power, admit that it is 2kg lighter, but that you have crash bungs / hotgrips / pack rack which evens things out). If you sound convincing enough, the PO is likely to believe there was no intent to the 'offending' and let you away.

If that fails though you'll be in for some letter-writing with Police, or if that fails, a court hearing in front of a judge. I could go into what I'd do in those situations but that'd be another novel entirely...

[n3Xro]

The way I intepret the rule on the NZTA website is that its only the 251 - 660 are prohibited from being modded (could be wrong here) however as a hypothetical - if you put say Aluminium brake levers on your 250 - the several grams you have saved HAS changed the power to weight - so I don't see how it could be enforceable.
I'm with you on this, the reference to the bikes here http://www.nzta.govt.nz/licence/getting/motorcycles/lams.html clearly states that only bikes from 251 to 660 and have to be in standard form. ALL bikes 250 and under are LAMs approved if not on the no list thus if you have a 250 thats not on the no list then you can go nuts...

[Erelyes]

I'm with you on this, the reference to the bikes here http://www.nzta.govt.nz/licence/getting/motorcycles/lams.html clearly states that only bikes from 251 to 660 and have to be in standard form. ALL bikes 250 and under are LAMs approved if not on the no list thus if you have a 250 thats not on the no list then you can go nuts...

Except for the statement at the bottom of that page


It is your responsibility to make sure that you only ride an approved motorcycle as produced by the manufacturer without any modifications to increase its power-to-weight ratio

[Mike.Gayner]

I'm with you on this, the reference to the bikes here http://www.nzta.govt.nz/licence/getting/motorcycles/lams.html clearly states that only bikes from 251 to 660 and have to be in standard form. ALL bikes 250 and under are LAMs approved if not on the no list thus if you have a 250 thats not on the no list then you can go nuts...

Are you being deliberately dense? Right from the page you linked:


LAMS-approved motorcycles include:

All motorcycles with engine capacities of 250cc and under, except for those on the LAMS-prohibited list above.


Then refer to the FAQ or other information about LAMS bikes, you'll find this:
http://www.nzta.govt.nz/licence/getting/docs/lams-faqs.pdf


What if a motorcycle is on the list and has been modified in a way that has increased
its power-to-weight ratio?
Any motorcycle that has been modified to increase its power-to-weight ratio is no longer
LAMS-complaint and must not be ridden on a learner or restricted motorcycle licence.

So from that we can glean that:

250cc motorcycles are LAMS-approved
ANY motorcycle that has been modified is no longer LAMS approved
Therefore any 250 which has been modified is no longer apporoved


Why is this even an issue anyway? Who are these people still buying 250cc motorcycles, and why? And more to the point, if you're going to deliberately choose some gay slow 250cc motorcycle, why are you going to bother trying to increase the power of it? Just buy a real motorbike in the first place.

[iranana]

IMO it makes it illegal. If you read between the lines (as Erelyes is), you could possibly argue your way out, but I doubt the powers that be would agree if they had you up on it. But, who would know? For example, I ride an old 250 2 smoker, I'm on my restricted cause I'm lazy and I put chambers on her a while back (but I've since taken them off). Went through a couple of cop stops with them on and they didn't even look twice, despite the fact they were blatantly not stock and they were pretty freaking loud, especially when it got on the pipe (and that's why I took them off...plus stock looks nicer)

[bogan]

Are you being deliberately dense? Right from the page you linked:

Try reading the actual act's terms, as Erelyes posted some of the relevant bits. Nowhere in the legislation can I find mention of even modifying 250+cc bikes, let alone the automatically approved 250cc and under class. But you'll let me know if cops/courts ever switch from referring to actual legislation in favor of the dumbed down for plebs nzta site right?

"Conditions of restricted licence

(1)
The holder of a restricted licence of a particular class is authorised to drive a vehicle to which that class of licence relates if the holder complies with the following conditions:

(a)
in the case of a Class 1R licence, the holder—

(i)
must not carry any passenger, other than the holder's spouse, partner, parent, guardian, or dependant, unless the holder is accompanied by a person described in subclause (2); and

(ii)
must not drive between the hours of 10 pm and 5 am unless the holder is accompanied by a person described in subclause (2); and

(b)
in the case of a Class 6R licence, where the holder is riding a motorcycle, the holder—

(i)
must ride an approved motorcycle; and

(ii)
must not—

(A)
ride between the hours of 10 pm and 5 am; or

(B)
use the motorcycle to tow another vehicle; or

(C)
carry another person on the motorcycle or in a sidecar attached to the motorcycle; and

(c)
in the case of a Class 6R licence, where the holder is riding a moped, the holder must not—

(i)
ride between the hours of 10 pm and 5 am; or

(ii)
carry another person on the moped or in a sidecar attached to the moped."

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/1999/0100/latest/DLM281353.html?search=sw_096be8ed80d5cbe7_motorcyc le_25_se&p=1&sr=2

"approved motorcycle means the make and model of any motorcycle that—

(a)
has an engine capacity of 250 cc or less, unless the Agency has prohibited the use of that make and model of motorcycle by notice published on the Agency's Internet site; or

(b)
has an engine capacity of more than 250 cc but not more than 660 cc and a power-to-weight ratio of not more than 150 kilowatts per tonne and is approved for use by the Agency by notice published on the Agency's Internet site"

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/1999/0100/latest/DLM280567.html?search=sw_096be8ed80d5cbe7_motorcyc le_25_se&p=1&sr=0

[Grashopper]

Hm, on another note, I do not stare at motorbikes all the time (only if one goes past, or they are parked in a 200 m radius away from me or they totally accidentally come up in my web browser...), but so far, when I bought my bikes I would have not noticed if they hadn't had the original exhausts on there. (Will that get me kicked out of the forum now? :crazy:)

So how does the normal garden variety cop know that the exhaust on the bike is not the one the bike originally came with?

[BlackSheepLogic]

Seems like a grey area to me.

Cans won't make much different, but a heavily modified 250 could be quite a potent weapon on the streets.

[Drew]

Try reading the actual act's terms, as Erelyes posted some of the relevant bits. Nowhere in the legislation can I find mention of even modifying 250+cc bikes, let alone the automatically approved 250cc and under class. But you'll let me know if cops/courts ever switch from referring to actual legislation in favor of the dumbed down for plebs nzta site right?

"Conditions of restricted licence

(1)
The holder of a restricted licence of a particular class is authorised to drive a vehicle to which that class of licence relates if the holder complies with the following conditions:

(a)
in the case of a Class 1R licence, the holder—

(i)
must not carry any passenger, other than the holder's spouse, partner, parent, guardian, or dependant, unless the holder is accompanied by a person described in subclause (2); and

(ii)
must not drive between the hours of 10 pm and 5 am unless the holder is accompanied by a person described in subclause (2); and

(b)
in the case of a Class 6R licence, where the holder is riding a motorcycle, the holder—

(i)
must ride an approved motorcycle; and

(ii)
must not—

(A)
ride between the hours of 10 pm and 5 am; or

(B)
use the motorcycle to tow another vehicle; or

(C)
carry another person on the motorcycle or in a sidecar attached to the motorcycle; and

(c)
in the case of a Class 6R licence, where the holder is riding a moped, the holder must not—

(i)
ride between the hours of 10 pm and 5 am; or

(ii)
carry another person on the moped or in a sidecar attached to the moped."

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/1999/0100/latest/DLM281353.html?search=sw_096be8ed80d5cbe7_motorcyc le_25_se&p=1&sr=2

"approved motorcycle means the make and model of any motorcycle that—

(a)
has an engine capacity of 250 cc or less, unless the Agency has prohibited the use of that make and model of motorcycle by notice published on the Agency's Internet site; or

(b)
has an engine capacity of more than 250 cc but not more than 660 cc and a power-to-weight ratio of not more than 150 kilowatts per tonne and is approved for use by the Agency by notice published on the Agency's Internet site"

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/1999/0100/latest/DLM280567.html?search=sw_096be8ed80d5cbe7_motorcyc le_25_se&p=1&sr=0

Black and white. Go nuts with modding the 250 or smaller.

[EJK]

Putting the Law aside, it doesn't matter if you just put a slip-on tin can or put up a full Yoshi + PCV + Performance airfilter on a LAMS bike.

Modified or non-modified LAMS bike, they are still slow regardless. Save money.

[pritch]

Some years ago one of the bike mags did a test of aftermarket pipes on a big bike. The best gave an improvement of 3bhp. The worst made less hp than the standard can.

My suggestion would be that the OP waits until he gets a bigger bike before he worries about wasting hard earned on a can.

[avgas]

<a href="https://imgflip.com/i/bewh6"><img src="https://i.imgflip.com/bewh6.jpg" title="made at imgflip.com"/></a>

[FJRider]

Demonlord, that's not correct. Modifying any LAMS bike (including a 250) in a way that changes its power to weight ratio (to any extent) makes the bike no longer LAMS compliant. Changing to a slip-on will reduce weight and increase power, and even though that power increase may only be a quarter of one horsepower, it still makes the bike no longer compliant.

Actually ... Including a 250 ... is NOT correct.

From the NZTA web site ...

LAMS-approved motorcycles include:

All motorcycles with engine capacities of 250cc and under, except for those on the LAMS-prohibited list above.

Fully electric powered motorcycles with a power-to-weight ratio of 150 kilowatts per tonne and under (this includes all fully electric powered motorcycles registered on New Zealand's Motor Vehicle Register as of 1 June 2012).

All motorcycles manufactured prior to 1960 with an engine capacity of 660cc and under.


The following list of motorcycles with engine capacities between 251cc and 660cc - these motorcycles must be in standard form as produced by the manufacturer. They cannot be modified in any way to increase the power-to-weight ratio.



http://www.nzta.govt.nz/licence/getting/motorcycles/lams.html

[ducatilover]

Why bother? It took a shit load of faffing around and a little nitrometh to get another 4whp from my Spada, which was much peppier than modern 250s. The Hyobagthing I picked up is debaffled and without jetting is slower than stock. With jetting? Probably slower than stock too.
Just turbo everything

[Drew]

Why bother? It took a shit load of faffing around and a little nitrometh to get another 4whp from my Spada, which was much peppier than modern 250s. The Hyobagthing I picked up is debaffled and without jetting is slower than stock. With jetting? Probably slower than stock too.
Just turbo everything4hp from a VT motor. That's at least 10%. To put that in perspective, a modern thou would need to end up over 200 ponies to match your increase.

[carburator]

If it was me I would ditch the "L-plate" and buy something that meet my needs. Ride with a low profile, it's not hard to get a small bike for a couple of hours when required.

Also, bigger bikes are better on the open road, it more relaxed riding , much more stable in the wind/traffic and the larger bikes don't have to be abused as much.

I believe the current fine for operating a vehicle without the proper licence is $900 and a few demerits.

[FJRider]

I believe the current fine for operating a vehicle without the proper licence is $900 and a few demerits.

That is incorrect ... for riding outside your license conditions ...


Breaching the learner conditions of your driver licence (other than failing to display L plates) could result in you receiving 35 demerit points and a fine of $100. If you breach any other conditions of your driver licence you could receive 25 demerit points and be subject to a fine of $400.

[EJK]

Again, setting Mr. Law aside, if you crash while riding a non-LAMS bike on your learners or restricted insurance company won't cover you for breaching license conditions.

So regardless of worrying about fines and demerits, crash into a BMW and you are fucked...





And I mean FUCKED!!!!

[nzspokes]

Again, setting Mr. Law aside, if you crash while riding a non-LAMS bike on your learners or restricted insurance company won't cover you for breaching license conditions.

So regardless of worrying about fines and demerits, crash into a BMW and you are fucked...





And I mean FUCKED!!!!

But what if they crash into your BMW?

[EJK]

But what if they crash into your BMW?

Then he is fucked...





And I mean FUCKED!!!!

[ducatilover]

4hp from a VT motor. That's at least 10%. To put that in perspective, a modern thou would need to end up over 200 ponies to match your increase.

That's from the original dyno on a stock motor that was probably in need of a wee bit of fettling and fuck knows how much altitude.
Ended up with tuned length headers and a unifoam filter, ign advance, shortened stacks, jetting and nitrometh
But the key to it all is nitrometh. 5% nitro and she was singing, cunt of a thing to jet and needle though. No idea how I never grenaded that fucker either, stupid Hondas.

And after all that work on a 250, I still say don't bother. Extreme waste of time to get from 32-36 whp. Buy a GN

[matrox02]

I have a Suzuki gw250, it has a yoshi slip on, and because its A 250, no one has bothered me with it, the law states that anything from 251+ cc to 650something cc cannot be modified but it also does state that no lambs bike can be modified, but i believe that when they state that nothing can be modified they are talking strictly about the list( even though they say whether or not it shows on the list ) , its a bit of a weird way that they word it, and if it ever came to it im sure a court would give you way at the stupid wording of the guide lines and tbh, its only a 250, what 250 is going to unlock mysterious powers through cams/slipons/efi tunes??

[Drew]

I have a Suzuki gw250, it has a yoshi slip on, and because its A 250, no one has bothered me with it, the law states that anything from 251+ cc to 650something cc cannot be modified but it also does state that no lambs bike can be modified, but i believe that when they state that nothing can be modified they are talking strictly about the list( even though they say whether or not it shows on the list ) , its a bit of a weird way that they word it, and if it ever came to it im sure a court would give you way at the stupid wording of the guide lines and tbh, its only a 250, what 250 is going to unlock mysterious powers through cams/slipons/efi tunes??

The LAW doesn't state at all that 250 or smaller machines cannot be modified. It clearly says that only bikes of greater engine capacity can't.

[newbie2012]

Putting the Law aside, it doesn't matter if you just put a slip-on tin can or put up a full Yoshi + PCV + Performance airfilter on a LAMS bike.

Modified or non-modified LAMS bike, they are still slow regardless. Save money.

Cracking logic - you'll have more money and therefore more choice with the non-LAMS bike porn on offer when you have your full ticket. Plus if you piss about with a LAMS bike you'll probably decrease the value.

You might (and this is pure, uninformed conjecture on my part) be better off putting the money that your are thinking of spending on modifications into either instruction or just more tanks of gas to get more time on the bike - it would seem that going fast in a straight line is one thing, but going quickly and safely through corners is pure art.

Your choice.

[MisterD]

It clearly says that only bikes of greater engine capacity can't.

Yeah, but what's the intent of the law? Surely it's to stop people buying a restricted 650cc LAMS bike and then derestricting it to the full fat performance.

I'd suggest the reason that we have people saying "the cops took no notice" is that they don't actually care about a measly 2hp from a different can, anymore than they care that you might have ditched a couple of kg of extraneous weight.