Truck driver shortage - true or false?

[Stylo]

Thinking about a lifestyle change, had enough of the corporate world and time to turn a corner.

52 and have my class 2 and 4L but no real experience ... wouldn't mind your comments on getting a job, or am I too late ?

I'm in Christchurch, thanks in advance

[Akzle]

git r done.

if you think it's your biscuits, then go for it.

i would like to think the labour market is teeming with... labour, but.... apparently not.
good workers are always in demand, though.

[bogan]

My uncle recently changed to that career path, he found people hiring wanted those with experience, and took him a while to get long term employment.

[R650R]

In Chch you'll Prob be sweet to pick up some work on a small tip truck.

As for the driver shortage, well even the govt has wised up and taken it off the skills shortage list for immigrants.
There is NO shortage of truck drivers in NZ.
There IS a shortage of drivers willing to work for peanuts driving crap gear.
There IS a shortage of EXPERIENCED class 5 drivers, eg ones that won't roll brand new trucks over, that can drive in fuel efficient and gear friendly manner, have a clean licence.
There is no shortage of BAD employers that expect drivers to speed, overload and shine the truck up on days off.

I suggest renting a Holden crewman ute and driving into the yard of chosen workplace at high speed. If there isn't a sudden bonfire of log books and employees running for exit its prob ok place to work for. Look for tidy gear and smiley faces, avoid places where the coffee jar is larger than the site first aid kit...

[anebv8]

try out on the concrete trucks,plenty of those jobs going,say you have 4L,90% will pay for you to get your 4F after a few months,stick it out a year so ya don't have to pay it back,and move on,I started on C2,work paid for my 4,moved on to crane trucks,and have just paid for my 5,if in doubt,call pro drive and get temping work driving trucks

[Motu]

Wondering myself - I have 2, 3, 4 and 5...but got them 40 years ago, a driver needs to know much more than just how to drive a truck these days. Too old and not enough experience - no wonder there is a driver shortage.

[anebv8]

Wondering myself - I have 2, 3, 4 and 5...but got them 40 years ago, a driver needs to know much more than just how to drive a truck these days. Too old and not enough experience - no wonder there is a driver shortage.

never too old,approch a trucking company and see if you can go for a ride a long,a lot of places do it,I've taken a couple of guys out for a refresher :yes:

[skippa1]

There IS a shortage of drivers that can pass a drug test
There IS a shortage of drivers that have experience
There ISNT a shortage of drivers that have no experience that want to start at the top
There ISNT a shortage of drivers that don't see keeping their truck clean as part of the job

its all perception really.......I could do with two full time experienced class 5 drivers
i could also do with 2 trainee drivers that have a class 2 licence little or no experience that want to work towards a class 5 over a 2-3 year period.

jobs available now

[tigertim20]

heres an honest overview.
Youll find ti fucking hard to get a decent, full time job. They will want experience. Good places to start are furniture companies, they dont give a fuck how much experience you have, as long as ya have the licence - will involve a lot of heavy work though.

Youll most likely have to work cunty hours. long, LONG days day after day most of the time

You will get paid an absolute fucking pittance, untill you have got a decent amount of experience under you.

Youll be driving clapped out pieces of utter shit, because 99% of companies have a servicing budget for their vehicles that is roughly about 40% of what they need to be kept in tip top condition, as long as they barely scrape through the legal requirements, thats good enough.

You will be 'asked without asking' to fudge your logbook by a LOT of companies.

Ive done a few years of it. I would not recommend it to someone who is your age, and just starting - no offence intended.

[Shaun Harris]

Just a thought, your class 2 is all you need to start as a crane operator mate wilth the small ones, maybe another option you had not considered. Truck driving can be a bitch of life man

[Stylo]

Thanks for the feedback everyone, not too worried about the long hours and pay to start with, acknowledge at my age and only with a C2 it's gonna be a battle to start with but, my options are limited.

Might talk to the local companies here in the EQ City first and maybe the Port co re their suggestions too ? Be nice to get a wage and have something coming in

[cruza]

Thanks for the feedback everyone, not too worried about the long hours and pay to start with, acknowledge at my age and only with a C2 it's gonna be a battle to start with but, my options are limited.

Might talk to the local companies here in the EQ City first and maybe the Port co re their suggestions too ? Be nice to get a wage and have something coming in

My thinking is you need to sit class 4 , it will open some doors for you , concrete mixers good idea , plenty of truck only tippers running about too , looking at some of the nobbs driving them , you would not have any issues hooking that first job . Then work your way up , look for local wknd or nightshift ,like Local container work etc, jobs that they find hard too fill . A lot of above comments I agree with , but don't write yourself off with the age thing , It takes years too become a good operator , but everyone had too start from square one.

[cruza]

In Chch you'll Prob be sweet to pick up some work on a small tip truck.

As for the driver shortage, well even the govt has wised up and taken it off the skills shortage list for immigrants.
There is NO shortage of truck drivers in NZ.
There IS a shortage of drivers willing to work for peanuts driving crap gear.
There IS a shortage of EXPERIENCED class 5 drivers, eg ones that won't roll brand new trucks over, that can drive in fuel efficient and gear friendly manner, have a clean licence.
There is no shortage of BAD employers that expect drivers to speed, overload and shine the truck up on days off.

I suggest renting a Holden crewman ute and driving into the yard of chosen workplace at high speed. If there isn't a sudden bonfire of log books and employees running for exit its prob ok place to work for. Look for tidy gear and smiley faces, avoid places where the coffee jar is larger than the site first aid kit...

Sure I've seen a few Toyota utes running around chch last few months as well , No need too bend the rules too make good money these days. With eroad and other big brother tech the days of dodgy running are getting less and less.

[R650R]

With eroad and other big brother tech the days of dodgy running are getting less and less.

Yes but there's a lot of slow learners out there. And the cops seem reluctant to make use of big brother as all the paperwork and data trawling is a big bother of an effort.
One cop wanted to know what our boss had us doing, told him to do his job, seize the company iphone and download everything (nothings ever deleted on those) "oh we cant do that", nek minit another truck on its side...
But that's our enforcement system, nothings a priority until after someone has died.



There ISNT a shortage of drivers that don't see keeping their truck clean as part of the job


Yes as long as its within legal 70 working hours and there is actually access to cleaning stuff... There's a lot of employers that expect it to be done as unpaid work on sundays.
Which works ok until someone rolls over and they come view the cctv footage of your yard...


heres an honest overview.
Youll find ti fucking hard to get a decent, full time job. They will want experience. Good places to start are furniture companies, they dont give a fuck how much experience you have, as long as ya have the licence - will involve a lot of heavy work though.

Youll most likely have to work cunty hours. long, LONG days day after day most of the time

You will get paid an absolute fucking pittance, untill you have got a decent amount of experience under you.

Youll be driving clapped out pieces of utter shit, because 99% of companies have a servicing budget for their vehicles that is roughly about 40% of what they need to be kept in tip top condition, as long as they barely scrape through the legal requirements, thats good enough.

You will be 'asked without asking' to fudge your logbook by a LOT of companies.

Ive done a few years of it. I would not recommend it to someone who is your age, and just starting - no offence intended.

Agree with most of that except the age bit. seen plenty of older guys slot into the less busy roles at most places.
"asked without asking" aka end up driving the fleet shitter and doing the crap runs if you stick your head above the trenches.
Luckily with GPS more guys are realising they have an ally now to help say no to BS work practices.
Paid a pittance, yes a lot of provincial companys will use the old oh that's all we can afford to pay you... but somehow they manage to pay their akld staff higher wages...
Be careful with trip rates, they often look good when things got to plan, but this is one industry where there is always change. A trip rate salary should work out as a good wage covering your maximum hours every day.
I wouldn't go anywhere on big gear for less than $20hour and have earned up to $36hr...

[Grumph]

My 2c worth...I did just what you're thinking about. Rural and pre quake though. Everything already said about hours and pay is true incl the fudging of logbooks....

But what hasn't been said is that you'd better be physically fit. If you haven't done manual work before, it'll hurt - badly. For a start i did my arches by regularly sliding down from the cab.....not what you'd expect eh.

[avgas]

I hated counting past 8. So I was a useless truck driver. I would get to 14 and get confused :crazy:

[Grubber]

There IS a shortage of drivers that can pass a drug test
There IS a shortage of drivers that have experience
There ISNT a shortage of drivers that have no experience that want to start at the top
There ISNT a shortage of drivers that don't see keeping their truck clean as part of the job

its all perception really.......I could do with two full time experienced class 5 drivers
i could also do with 2 trainee drivers that have a class 2 licence little or no experience that want to work towards a class 5 over a 2-3 year period.

jobs available now

Good luck with that.
We are hiring at present and looking for experienced operators.
5 years ago we could put an add in and get 100 replies, out of that we could pick between 15-20 applicants we could have taken on.
Put an add in a week ago and got 25 replies and out of them we could pick....hmmmm....one if we were lucky.
Plenty that want to come in and hop in $600k worth of truck and drive it after a year on class 4. Not happening.
We recruit young fellas now and put and pay for them through their classes. Works better if you can keep up with demand.
Then you get the ones that just want to come in and do shag all, lazy bastards, once again not happening.

[R650R]

Good luck with that.
We are hiring at present and looking for experienced operators.
5 years ago we could put an add in and get 100 replies, out of that we could pick between 15-20 applicants we could have taken on.
Put an add in a week ago and got 25 replies and out of them we could pick....hmmmm....one if we were lucky.


So are you willing to state publicly what pay and amount of (min)hours required for this job?
The transport industry has reaped what is sowed just like building industry. They slacked off on training apprentices and then wonder why shortage of workers.
I remember one big company I worked for had 3 fulltime driver trainers and a good safe respected fleet. Then the cost cutting started, first to go were the trainers, then the rollovers started... the payrises stopped and the exodus for the door began a vicous cycle...
I remember when I came back to NZ in 2005, there was still waiting lists to get into good companies. The fuel hikes started and cost cutting became the norm again. NZTA prob has bit to answer for too with the HPMV changes causing deferred decisions on new gear for many operators.
Recently I visited a local company to interview them. Lots of long term staff and happy faces. Why? Pay good wages, drivers stay in motels not the cab and all the gear is newish and well maintained...

[Grubber]

So are you willing to state publicly what pay and amount of (min)hours required for this job?
The transport industry has reaped what is sowed just like building industry. They slacked off on training apprentices and then wonder why shortage of workers.
I remember one big company I worked for had 3 fulltime driver trainers and a good safe respected fleet. Then the cost cutting started, first to go were the trainers, then the rollovers started... the payrises stopped and the exodus for the door began a vicous cycle...
I remember when I came back to NZ in 2005, there was still waiting lists to get into good companies. The fuel hikes started and cost cutting became the norm again. NZTA prob has bit to answer for too with the HPMV changes causing deferred decisions on new gear for many operators.
Recently I visited a local company to interview them. Lots of long term staff and happy faces. Why? Pay good wages, drivers stay in motels not the cab and all the gear is newish and well maintained...

Yup sure.
$23 starting rate and roughly around the 60 hour mark per week. We try and make sure they have a 2 day weekend every month where possible.
We have trip rates that include a 10 hour day and anything over that they get paid extra hours.
We are moving in the other direction at the moment. We have now got a driver trainer and we are currently hiring apprentices.
The HPMV status about a year ago was atrocious. We built 4 new trailers with 4 axles. Rules changed and now we are adding another axle to them for 50MAX. They took forever to sort out a system.

It wasn't our place you visited by any chance??
All our drivers stay in motels and are all well paid (well we think they are ) old hands getting in excess of $26 an hour plus meals etc.
They all drive new Scania R620 with 5 axle pull trailers.
They always seem to be happy around here.

[R650R]

They always seem to be happy around here.

I'm pretty sure I know who your outfit is based on that info. Definitely one of the good employers where you don't hear the drivers moaning at deliveries or on CB, and fairly easy work.
No never been into your yard, have changed a tyre out front on the way to a competitor a bit further into countryside from there ages ago.
If I'm right about my guess, good luck with that other place you just acquired, some good revenue there if run properly. :)

[Grubber]

I'm pretty sure I know who your outfit is based on that info. Definitely one of the good employers where you don't hear the drivers moaning at deliveries or on CB, and fairly easy work.
No never been into your yard, have changed a tyre out front on the way to a competitor a bit further into countryside from there ages ago.
If I'm right about my guess, good luck with that other place you just acquired, some good revenue there if run properly. :)

Sounds like your on the money.
Things are working well at the moment with the integration. Has added some real value. We have just purchased 3 new R560 tractors and 3 new 50MAX B Trains to tidy some of the fleet up. 2 new 6 wheelers for town deliveries to tidy things up a little as well.

All of this doesn't solve our driver shortages of coarse.
Pop in for a coffee next time your passing, ya might get a job.:facepalm:

[cruza]

Good luck with that.
We are hiring at present and looking for experienced operators.
5 years ago we could put an add in and get 100 replies, out of that we could pick between 15-20 applicants we could have taken on.
Put an add in a week ago and got 25 replies and out of them we could pick....hmmmm....one if we were lucky.
Plenty that want to come in and hop in $600k worth of truck and drive it after a year on class 4. Not happening.
We recruit young fellas now and put and pay for them through their classes. Works better if you can keep up with demand.
Then you get the ones that just want to come in and do shag all, lazy bastards, once again not happening.

Then you have too factor in the huge cost of advertising , screening and still taking the risk with a new driver, boogles the mind seeing some of the bills.

[skippa1]

Some interesting comments......I have roughly 45 full time drivers working for me at the moment and no one is coerced to fudge log books, nor are they encouraged to flaunt any laws.....the penalties are way too high and there is no future in killing people. They get fair pay for fair work and if they look after gear they get good gear, if they don't, they're not there for long.

Fiddling log books? those that know of that type of behaviour should do something about it....dob em in.....the pay rates would go up, the cowboys would go out of business and the standard of trucks would improve ten fold.

or get on here and grizzle;)

[Grubber]

Then you have too factor in the huge cost of advertising , screening and still taking the risk with a new driver, boogles the mind seeing some of the bills.

And let's not start with the ones that phone up saying " I have class 4 but getting 5 next week, can I get the job" even though you specifically asked for 5 years experience in class 5. So much time gets wasted. Valuable time I might add. Yra I could give you some rwal doozies that I have heard over the years. Then you do reference checks to find thw onea you do have are wasters also. They dont seem to realise when you been in this game for a few years you usually know previous employers fairly well.

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[Grubber]

Some interesting comments......I have roughly 45 full time drivers working for me at the moment and no one is coerced to fudge log books, nor are they encouraged to flaunt any laws.....the penalties are way too high and there is no future in killing people. They get fair pay for fair work and if they look after gear they get good gear, if they don't, they're not there for long.

Fiddling log books? those that know of that type of behaviour should do something about it....dob em in.....the pay rates would go up, the cowboys would go out of business and the standard of trucks would improve ten fold.

or get on here and grizzle;)

We are the same with logbooks. No fiddling required runs are set up to alleviate that issue.
I agree with the dob them in part. The less cowboys the better and safer it will be for my guys.
We have had one accident in 15 years. Rolled a trailer and that was due to rear axle snapping u bolts so no driver error on that one either.
Have to keep onea head above water at all times.


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[caspernz]

We are the same with logbooks. No fiddling required runs are set up to alleviate that issue.
I agree with the dob them in part. The less cowboys the better and safer it will be for my guys.
We have had one accident in 15 years. Rolled a trailer and that was due to rear axle snapping u bolts so no driver error on that one either.
Have to keep onea head above water at all times.


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Yep, fully agree with your attitude. Interesting entry/exit from your yard though, must be a bit of a challenge in the rush hour. See your gear on Sesame Street every night, and may I add your crew driving them belongs in that magic top 5%, nothing to do with me being pro Euro trucks.

For the OP. Trucking can be fun, and yes there's money in it for the right drivers. The starting point might have to be a recruiting outfit, doing work such as local supermarket type deliveries, concrete mixers or furniture as suggested already. Getting started is the hard part, keep your licence clean, gain the classes and see if it's for you.

[Danger Dave]

As some one who has recently got a class 2, i have been keeping an eye out for jobs but everywhere i have looked is after someone with experience but how are you supposed to get it when no one will give you the chance, I'm not in a hurry to find anything as i currently have a good job in the motorcycle industry but i have been thinking about making the change at some point.

[buggerit]

As some one who has recently got a class 2, i have been keeping an eye out for jobs but everywhere i have looked is after someone with experience but how are you supposed to get it when no one will give you the chance, I'm not in a hurry to find anything as i currently have a good job in the motorcycle industry but i have been thinking about making the change at some point.

Ag contractors will be looking for staff for the coming silage/cropping season now/soon.

[Grubber]

Yep, fully agree with your attitude. Interesting entry/exit from your yard though, must be a bit of a challenge in the rush hour. See your gear on Sesame Street every night, and may I add your crew driving them belongs in that magic top 5%, nothing to do with me being pro Euro trucks.

For the OP. Trucking can be fun, and yes there's money in it for the right drivers. The starting point might have to be a recruiting outfit, doing work such as local supermarket type deliveries, concrete mixers or furniture as suggested already. Getting started is the hard part, keep your licence clean, gain the classes and see if it's for you.

Interesting it is!
Mind you we don't head out till around 5.30pm when the worst traffic is gone. Then through the night is no issue anyway. It's really only in the morning around the 830am mark for an hour we have trouble form time to time. Any other time it's not too bad.
Glad you think drivers are up there. Something we try to protect with passion. Pay well and get good guys were we can.

[SMOKEU]

There IS a shortage of drivers that can pass a drug test


Fuck working for dickheads like that, what an employee does in their spare time has nothing to do with the employer as long as it doesn't affect the work. I've never seen or heard of an employer who is good to work for who asks for drug tests, except in some very highly regulated industries such as airline pilots. That should set off alarm bells straight away if they even ask.

[trustme]

Fuck working for dickheads like that, what an employee does in their spare time has nothing to do with the employer as long as it doesn't affect the work. I've never seen or heard of an employer who is good to work for who asks for drug tests, except in some very highly regulated industries such as airline pilots. That should set off alarm bells straight away if they even ask.

You are a total fucktard . Drugs affect work performance, don't bring your problems to work. Moronic posts like yours are proof of the problem. Drug testing will become more prevalent , best clean yourself up.

[SMOKEU]

You are a total fucktard . Drugs affect work performance, don't bring your problems to work. Moronic posts like yours are proof of the problem. Drug testing will become more prevalent , best clean yourself up.

You're the fucktard. Alcohol is a drug, so is caffeine. Should everyone with a job be banned from doing that? What about prescription drugs, many of them are very well known for fucking people up big time, so how do you feel about that?

You should clean your stupid brain up.

[mashman]

You are a total fucktard . Drugs affect work performance, don't bring your problems to work. Moronic posts like yours are proof of the problem. Drug testing will become more prevalent , best clean yourself up.

Not everyone who uses drugs has their work performance affected by those drugs. Mandatory drug testing :rofl:... can't wait to see how that affects the economy.

[bogan]

Drug Impairment Performance Status Human Integrated Testing is the way forward. Doesn't matter what you're on or not on, if you're performing like a dipshit, no workies for you.

[Mom]

In Chch you'll Prob be sweet to pick up some work on a small tip truck.

I suggest renting a Holden crewman ute and driving into the yard of chosen workplace at high speed. If there isn't a sudden bonfire of log books and employees running for exit its prob ok place to work for. Look for tidy gear and smiley faces, avoid places where the coffee jar is larger than the site first aid kit...

Cynical, but accurate assessment.

[Akzle]

You are a total fucktard . Drugs affect work performance, don't bring your problems to work. Moronic posts like yours are proof of the problem. Drug testing will become more prevalent , best clean yourself up.

you fucking moron. it's not drug testing, it's cannabis testing. (as cannabis is fat soluble and stays in the system for ~3 months)

i can start shooting up heroin (oooooh, scary drugs) (or crack, eccy, meth, coke, ketamine &cetera) on a friday arvo, and as long as i knock it off by sunday lunch, drink plenty of OJ, i'll pass a "drug test" on monday.
- real fucken safe, right? cos i passed the test?

you dumb. you dumb like a dumb c*nt.

[Akzle]

Not everyone who uses drugs has their work performance affected by those drugs. Mandatory drug testing :rofl:... can't wait to see how that affects the economy.

well, i just stocked up in "drugtestsRus Inc." shares, so, fucken good, i reckon.


and my pharmac portfolio is healthy.... (pun intended)

[skippa1]

Fuck working for dickheads like that, what an employee does in their spare time has nothing to do with the employer as long as it doesn't affect the work. I've never seen or heard of an employer who is good to work for who asks for drug tests, except in some very highly regulated industries such as airline pilots. That should set off alarm bells straight away if they even ask.
Every workplace is like this. If you have a beef, have it with work safe. They are the ones that crucify an employer for their employees actions in their spare time.

[R650R]

Not everyone who uses drugs has their work performance affected by those drugs. Mandatory drug testing :rofl:... can't wait to see how that affects the economy.

A friend of my sisters who was a highly trained nurse set up her own business offering workplace drug testing among other things. She soon realised that side was futile after visiting a major local company. The boss laughing told her not interested as he would lose half his workforce.

I've never used drugs myself but have worked with many who obviously do. It doesn't seem to affect their driving for the most part, but Jesus, listening to all the bullshit stories they spout is tiring...

Funny tho the fleets that suddenly start drug testing once they need to downsize after losing a contract...

[98tls]

Bit off topic but... a mate of mine awhile back lost his job (construction on a big dairy job out at Glenavy ) after a random drug test,guy is a non toker but the test said otherwise,despite many pleading his case etc his employer didnt really have any other option so sacked he was then 5 weeks later reinstated after it was discovered there was something wrong with the test,makes you wonder how many others have suffered the same fate but never rehired etc.

[mashman]

A friend of my sisters who was a highly trained nurse set up her own business offering workplace drug testing among other things. She soon realised that side was futile after visiting a major local company. The boss laughing told her not interested as he would lose half his workforce.

I've never used drugs myself but have worked with many who obviously do. It doesn't seem to affect their driving for the most part, but Jesus, listening to all the bullshit stories they spout is tiring...

Funny tho the fleets that suddenly start drug testing once they need to downsize after losing a contract...

Aye, who would have thought that highly functioning people were also recreational drug users who appreciate that they should stay on the right side of "sober" in order to perform that function to a high, pun intended, degree the following day, eh. Nothing like a bit of propaganda though and nothing like the odd idiot misjudging it on occasion :whistle: (predominantly alcohol related ;)).

lol... they take the drugs after a day of working with you

http://www.growyourbusiness.com.au/system/assets/1471/PulpFiction_Square_L_original.jpg

types :bleh:

Ugh. Needles legislation or a cold calculated policy in order to "manage" a revenue stream :shifty:.

[Akzle]

Every workplace is like this. If you have a beef, have it with work safe. They are the ones that crucify an employer for their employees actions in their spare time.

i've only been drug tested twice in my life. once, for an engineering shop where everyone was either drunk, stoned or british, and once for some do-good organisation, because we MAY go to some place where THEIR employees have to be drug tested. (and they STILL manage to have the highest fatality rate/occupation in the country. go figure (drugs are obviously the problem, ehh))

i'd rant more, but i've got some fucking tasty :doobey:

[Bikemad]

SMOKEU...........the responsible Meth user..........:weird:

[Akzle]

Ugh. Needles legislation or a cold calculated policy in order to "manage" a revenue stream :shifty:.

funny story, that.
acre for acre, cannabis is 5-30x more productive than corn (gluten is really bad for making entire populations sick, fat, and dependent on medication from - dun-dun-duuuunnnnn - not cannabis, cos that shit's bad, hmkay)
it produces: rongoa(obviously), fibre (clothes, rope &tc), oil (biodiesel)

but, someone had a patent on corn. zea mays. new maize, stole that shit off the injuns and engineered the fuck out of it.

hey, is that shit round-up (TM, copyright) ready? it sure fucken is!

[Akzle]

SMOKEU...........the responsible Meth user..........:weird:

i've known a couple in my life.

then, i've also seen people disappear... just, vacate the body they were in.

smokey, he's just a hobbyist. he's not serious about his drug habit, not a connoisseur. he'll just take what's going.

[Bikemad]

funny story, that.
acre for acre, cannabis is 5-30x more productive than corn (gluten is really bad for making entire populations sick, fat, and dependent on medication from - dun-dun-duuuunnnnn - not cannabis, cos that shit's bad, hmkay)
it produces: rongoa(obviously), fibre (clothes, rope &tc), oil (biodiesel)

but, someone had a patent on corn. zea mays. new maize, stole that shit off the injuns and engineered the fuck out of it.

hey, is that shit round-up (TM, copyright) ready? it sure fucken is!

dude if you are gonna wave the flag for why pot is so good tell the whole story.......acre for acre you are talking the male plant for fibre production........you are talking seeded heads for biodiesel/oil production.....neither of which i am picking you would be happy growing/smoking............maybe you should have a crack at politics.......thats full of half truths and lying by omission too

[mashman]

funny story, that.
acre for acre, cannabis is 5-30x more productive than corn (gluten is really bad for making entire populations sick, fat, and dependent on medication from - dun-dun-duuuunnnnn - not cannabis, cos that shit's bad, hmkay)
it produces: rongoa(obviously), fibre (clothes, rope &tc), oil (biodiesel)

but, someone had a patent on corn. zea mays. new maize, stole that shit off the injuns and engineered the fuck out of it.

hey, is that shit round-up (TM, copyright) ready? it sure fucken is!

Yeah, but that'd be like a monopoly and should not be allowed.

Unfortunately ya can't feed cattle on grass. Although, if the chemical side of our diet is cause for some of our injuries, then feeding animals cannabis could give us all, 'part from rabbit food crowd, a gentle dose that would be good for our health... or could kill us all instantly.

Serves many a purpose... deweeding, nuking them pesky critters that nibbles on food that us hoomans is going to be consuming, cleansing the soil etc...

[Akzle]

.acre for acre you are talking the male plant

why?? .

[Bikemad]

because they are taller and less dense or bushy hence longer fires and more plants per acre...........doh

[R650R]

then feeding animals cannabis could give us all...

Hey now there's a cure for the wandering stock program, lace that stock feed with some TLC and they'll be no motivation to bust out of the paddock...

[mashman]

Hey now there's a cure for the wandering stock program, lace that stock feed with some TLC and they'll be no motivation to bust out of the paddock...

bwaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaa :clap: they'll have the munchies too, so will fatten quicker.

[Grubber]

Fuck working for dickheads like that, what an employee does in their spare time has nothing to do with the employer as long as it doesn't affect the work. I've never seen or heard of an employer who is good to work for who asks for drug tests, except in some very highly regulated industries such as airline pilots. That should set off alarm bells straight away if they even ask.

The intial test often determines if the applicant is in fact a user. This is done prior to employment. If he is positive we dont employ. Reason being, for us anyway, is that if he is using it would appear through experience that they will use while on the job as well. How do we know this? We do a random once in a while and usually point it at particular employees that we notice are forgetful, lethargic and often away with the fairys. We dont aim just at these ones. We test all those within the yard at the same time. Guess what, the ones we think are impaired are always positive. Go figure. If you dont like the fact that I test and keep my fleet clean so YOU the public and us as a company can travel the same roads in relative safety, then you're a bigger fuckin moron than I thought you were.

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[Akzle]

because they are taller and less dense or bushy hence longer fires and more plants per acre...........doh

are you just arguing for the sake of it?
you realise plants growth depends on the environment eh? That female plants can be just as spindly? (yeah, ive had some bad seasons)
and no, males do not grow taller.

[Madness]

If you dont like the fact that I test and keep my fleet clean so YOU the public and us as a company can travel the same roads in relative safety, then you're a bigger fuckin moron than I thought you were.

The really sad part about all this is that you obviously believe that shit, which doesn't alter the fact that you're a total fuckwit. Tell me, do you wear a cape when the drug testing's happening, seeing as you're saving the world, seems appropriate. Cock.

[Grubber]

The really sad part about all this is that you obviously believe that shit, which doesn't alter the fact that you're a total fuckwit. Tell me, do you wear a cape when the drug testing's happening, seeing as you're saving the world, seems appropriate. Cock.

I predicted the dope brigade would arrive and defend all fuck wits. And here you are.
Nuff said!

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[bogan]

Nuff said!

Not really, but I guess a coherent argument is too much to ask for.

Hey, isn't a lack of coherency a sign of a habitual drug user? :shifty:

[Madness]

I predicted the dope brigade would arrive and defend all fuck wits. And here you are.
Nuff said!

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You predicted it where? To yourself with your hand grasped firmly around your cock?

Have you started drug-testing visitors to your home since the Blackdog incident? If not you should before some drug-crazed maniac crashes your spare bed into your telly. Fucking mouth breather.

[Grubber]

Not really, but I guess a coherent argument is too much to ask for.

Hey, isn't a lack of coherency a sign of a habitual drug user? :shifty:


Would you rather I let these fellas out in 50 ton rigs to reek havock on the same roads your family use. Seriously!
We even have thier team mates picking them off as it is so obvious. Wrong deliveries, wrong addresses, wrong freight and the list goes on. We as a company dont need these issues least of all putting them out on the road full stop

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[Grubber]

You predicted it where? To yourself with your hand grasped firmly around your cock?

Have you started drug-testing visitors to your home since the Blackdog incident? If not you should before some drug-crazed maniac crashes your spare bed into your telly. Fucking mouth breather.

Typical! Thanks for paricapating with such an educated reply. I can only aspire to your great heights.

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[Madness]

Wrong deliveries, wrong addresses, wrong freight and the list goes on.

Sounds like a bunch of unprofessional amateurs using the odd pot smoker as a scapegoat. The owners should be looking long and hard at their transport manager I reckon, sounds like a right cock.

[Madness]

Typical! Thanks for paricapating with such an educated reply. I can only aspire to your great heights.

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Maybe start with some night classes at the local High School, if they'll have you.

[bogan]

Would you rather I let these fellas out in 50 ton rigs to reek havock on the same roads your family use. Seriously!
We even have thier team mates picking them off as it is so obvious. Wrong deliveries, wrong addresses, wrong freight and the list goes on. We as a company dont need these issues least of all putting them out on the road full stop

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The point you need to make to give your arguments coherency, is one strongly linking positive results of a drug test with impaired driving performance. This would require more than your own anecdotal confirmation bias'd experiences.

If they are doing their job wrong, fire them for that. You don't need a drug test to fire a guy who keeps picking up the wrong freight and dropping it off at the wrong place do you?

[Bikemad]

are you just arguing for the sake of it?
you realise plants growth depends on the environment eh? That female plants can be just as spindly? (yeah, ive had some bad seasons)
and no, males do not grow taller.

no i am just pointing out the fact that the virtues of pot that you put forward have nothing to do with the original arguement against drug testing as the male has virtually no psyhcoactive properties and neither do the seeds.......and yes in the same growing enviroment the males will grow taller every time

[Grubber]

The point you need to make to give your arguments coherency, is one strongly linking positive results of a drug test with impaired driving performance. This would require more than your own anecdotal confirmation bias'd experiences.

If they are doing their job wrong, fire them for that. You don't need a drug test to fire a guy who keeps picking up the wrong freight and dropping it off at the wrong place do you?

One quick answer is, if we crash and he has drugs in his system we are out of business basically.
Secondly, we dont want impairwd drivers out on the road fullstop. And trust me, it is painfully obvious they are using at the time. When the join up they are well aware of all the regulations. If they choose to use then they put thier jobs on the line.
The big pity is that a couple of the ones that have been tested positive were awesome oporators when they were clean. Soon as they showed signs of anything other than perfect it was a dead give in they were using. Tis easy really. If you use your gone its in all thier contracts so is very clear.

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[Grubber]

Maybe start with some night classes at the local High School, if they'll have you.

I would only end up sitting next to you. Assuming by your dialogue you ARE still at school of coarse. Seriously lad, you behave like a teenage boy.

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[bogan]

One quick answer is, if we crash and he has drugs in his system we are out of business basically.
Secondly, we dont want impairwd drivers out on the road fullstop. And trust me, it is painfully obvious they are using at the time. When the join up they are well aware of all the regulations. If they choose to use then they put thier jobs on the line.
The big pity is that a couple of the ones that have been tested positive were awesome oporators when they were clean. Soon as they showed signs of anything other than perfect it was a dead give in they were using. Tis easy really. If you use your gone its in all thier contracts so is very clear.

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Practicalities of business operation is fine, but this is clearly not your only reason.
Neither do I. But you still haven't made a coherent point that anyone who fails a drug test is driving at a significantly impaired level. The blackdog incident clearly shows you have a bias against users, this will leak into confirmation bias in your anecdotal observations; if you do not have anything more than such biased observations, then you have nothing at all.

[bogan]

Seriously lad, you behave like a teenage boy.

Bwahaha, pull your head out of your arse mate, you come off looking at least as bad.

[Madness]

I would only end up sitting next to you. Assuming by your dialogue you ARE still at school of coarse. Seriously lad, you behave like a teenage boy.

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I don't really give a fuck how you think I'm behaving, I'm not one of your brain-dead truck drivers or another of your inbred offspring. Seriously though dude, learn how to spell.

[Akzle]

Would you rather I let these fellas out in 50 ton rigs to reek havock on the same roads your family use. Seriously!

when has that happened. like, ever?
the anti-dope-brigade piss and moan about how dangerous it is, but how many accidents are actually caused BY drug use, not just "had cannabis in system" but "was impaired"?

you know the answer? no you dont.
and you know why you don't? becuase the stats are for "drugs and ALCOHOL". know what's legal? yes you do.
fortunately, alcohol statistics ARE available by their onesies: 20%.

... 20% of road crashes "involve alcohol" (not specified whether the crasher or the crashee, so, more like 10-15% are caused by impairment yeah?)

- that means 80% don't.

that means four in five people on the road are fucking retarded enough to fuck your day up sober.

there are no meaningful statistics on cannabis impairment vs ANYTHING BAD HAPPENING. ever.
care to gamble as to why that is?

[Grubber]

Practicalities of business operation is fine, but this is clearly not your only reason.
Neither do I. But you still haven't made a coherent point that anyone who fails a drug test is driving at a significantly impaired level. The blackdog incident clearly shows you have a bias against users, this will leak into confirmation bias in your anecdotal observations; if you do not have anything more than such biased observations, then you have nothing at all.

Yes I di have bias, as does all the staff I work with. Reasons being, yes we do believe thier is impairment. We see it first hand with quality of work standards. It doea become painfully obvious. As does alcohol, once again is painfully obvious.
Me peraonally, I dont really give a toss what other people do in thier own homes etc but in my place of work we have standards we must work by. Workplace safety is of high importance and drug using comes under that banner. Check OSH standards. No room to move there.
If you were to ask me if I have hard evidence, then no. But I also dont have hard evidence to prove no such things as landing on the moon either. Some things are just too obvious I think.

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[Madness]

Careful Grubber, if you dribble on your GT-I9300T too much you could damage it. Paul Butler won't be happy at having to buy you a new one!

[bogan]

If you were to ask me if I have hard evidence, then no.

Then perhaps you would do well to remember that before condemning all those who just had a joint on the weekend...

[Akzle]

no i am just pointing out the fact that the virtues of pot that you put forward have nothing to do with the original arguement against drug testing as the male has virtually no psyhcoactive properties and neither do the seeds.......and yes in the same growing enviroment the males will grow taller every time

the original argument was nothing to do with drug testing. also. males don't produce seeds... :doh:

the male plant is a faster life cycle, so in terms of fibre, yes, could be more beneficial than females, however, females produce more of the other (oil, and wwweeeeeeeeeed) so punch for punch, females would be better farmed, i reckon.

[R650R]

If they are doing their job wrong, fire them for that. You don't need a drug test to fire a guy who keeps picking up the wrong freight and dropping it off at the wrong place do you?

It's very hard to fire someone that is doing their job wrong. Although dropping a plt of something off the forklift or forgetting/missing a delivery or pickup can cost thousands, it's still technically a minor cost compared to the businesses annual turnover. Eg in an office environment would you be able to fire someone for accidently spilling coffee on photocopy machine etc... They would have to be doing it repeatedly and be warned before you can do anything unless its extreme negligence.
Most trucking companies will continue to employ their bad eggs until a drop in business means they can afford to lose them. I've lost count of the number of fools I've worked with who we're kept on because it takes too much of the bosses time to find another replacement, and if the worst happens insurance covers everything anyway. And if their lucky they roll over the fleet crapper that they have been unable to sell and cash in on insurance.

Some examples of bad co workers who would have been out the door instantly going back 10-15 years.

Driver A: Would use the same amount of fuel to do four return trips HB to Aucks that I would get six out of. Pulled out of rest area without releasing brakes, carries on driving until a logger tells him to stop on CB, tyres trashed. Knows his licence dodgy doesn't tell employer until cops take it off him 2hrs before due at work...
Driver B: As above re fuel. Guy was faily illiterate and couldn't fill in a logbook to save himself, company didn't care, ended up losing licence for month.
Driver C: Ran over green electrical box and sign taking out power to neighbouring businesses. Set fire to his DG paperwork down SH27 from cigarette butt in cab... other stuff but cant remember
Driver D: Good ol 'Ex army' driver, clean cut but couldn't handle freight, dropped many pallets. Smashed up side of truck and fuel tank parking at walking pace inside a shed...
Driver E: Hadn't been checking oil, rings me up climbing big hill to say have I got any oil as light on. Give him my 4L reserve always carried, still doesn't show dipstick. Someone from yard has to come out in wagon and give him 20L of oil!!!
I could go on but that's enough. Most of these incidents are clear negligence but many employers will keep them there out of overall convenience...

[Bikemad]

the original argument was nothing to do with drug testing. also. males don't produce seeds... :doh:


yes i know about the seeds ya plonker.........i never said males produce seeds...........just they have no psyco.......ah fuck ...can't be bothered...........go back to ya bong fella:brick:

[Akzle]

yes i know about the seeds ya plonker.........i never said males produce seeds..........go back to ya bong fella:brick:


...as the male has virtually no psyhcoactive properties and neither do the seeds...


you what now? you're either not good at english or you're just daft on this.
and i'm sure you mentioned something about oil i the seed heads - again, not a male trait.
bong for lunch, excellent idea sir.

[Grubber]

Then perhaps you would do well to remember that before condemning all those who just had a joint on the weekend...

I condemn them because i know it ends up in my yard the next day and it hardly ever ends up being a weekend only in my experience.

[bogan]

I condemn them because i know it ends up in my yard the next day and it hardly ever ends up being a weekend only in my experience.

The next day? you make your guys work sat/sun with no advance notice?

So condemn those who turn up to work stoned, don't condemn everyone who has a joint ever just cos some of them are twats. I mean getting on that freight train of judgement, it would make me a 'better person'TM than what, 80% of NZ? since I don't drink even on weekends; how about you, you drink ever on weekends, or heaven forbid, a weeknight?

[caspernz]

Well this debate has gone way off topic. Drug testing in the transport industry has its place. It's a shotgun type of approach though, for the length of time cannabis shows traces in the body is way out of kilter with the modern synthetic stuff which you can supposedly use on a Saturday and be "clean" on Monday thereafter. The demeanour of the individual changes over time though, some become relaxed to the point of making lots of little mistakes, sometimes leading to one big one. Other fellas I've seen become aggressive and neurotic, a bit like some of the posters on this thread.

The sad part is that I also know a few long time occasional cannabis smokers who seem sweet as a nut, but since they can now no longer pass the drug test, they end up in other professions.

I don't know what the answer is, but letting a drugged operator loose with heavy equipment surely isn't the preferred option?

[Bikemad]

you what now? you're either not good at english or you're just daft on this.
and i'm sure you mentioned something about oil i the seed heads - again, not a male trait.
bong for lunch, excellent idea sir.

i just didn't think i had to point out the seeds were from the female ya knob......you being the resident stoner exspurt n all......the oil reference was about biodiesel which can be refined from the crushed seeds as i understand it.......are we clear now............or are ya eyes and memory still a little hazy.........go on toke up large man........hey at least you will be unlikely to suffer from glaucoma in your future

[Akzle]

...way out of kilter with the modern synthetic stuff which you can supposedly use on a Saturday and be "clean" on Monday thereafter.

never mind the modern stuff. smokin good old crack... metabolises quickly, basically, if you're not high, you'll pass a test. great stuff!

[Grubber]

Well this debate has gone way off topic. Drug testing in the transport industry has its place. It's a shotgun type of approach though, for the length of time cannabis shows traces in the body is way out of kilter with the modern synthetic stuff which you can supposedly use on a Saturday and be "clean" on Monday thereafter. The demeanour of the individual changes over time though, some become relaxed to the point of making lots of little mistakes, sometimes leading to one big one. Other fellas I've seen become aggressive and neurotic, a bit like some of the posters on this thread.

The sad part is that I also know a few long time occasional cannabis smokers who seem sweet as a nut, but since they can now no longer pass the drug test, they end up in other professions.

I don't know what the answer is, but letting a drugged operator loose with heavy equipment surely isn't the preferred option?

Seems about as good as can be said.
My moto is if ya dont like it move to another profession, cause we dont need it on our roads or in our industry for sure.
One has a toke to get high, if you all think this is the condition appropriate to operate heavy equipment on public roads, then best ya stick to a desk job.


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[bogan]

One has a toke to get high, if you all think this is the condition appropriate to operate heavy equipment on public roads, then best ya stick to a desk job.

One has a drink to get drunk, if you all think this is the condition appropriate to operate heavy equipment on public roads, then best ya stick to a desk job.

Funny how different the two are seen by drinkers but not stoners compared to the three other groups...

[Grubber]

One has a drink to get drunk, if you all think this is the condition appropriate to operate heavy equipment on public roads, then best ya stick to a desk job.

Funny how different the two are seen by drinkers but not stoners compared to the three other groups...

I beg to differ. Most people I know dont have a drink to get drunk.
Most people I know are not drunk after one drink or even 2 for that matter.
If you have had enough to be considered unable to operate a vehicle then you get sacked also. If you get caught on the road with more than a safe limit of alcohol then you get taken off the road.
I dont see how your argument is even similar.
I dont know anyone who has a toke and isnt high.
Quite diferent substances wouldn't you think.
I have no time for either, be it in a workplace or on the road.

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[Madness]

I dont know anyone who has a toke and isnt high...


Are you saying that in your opinion after one toke of a joint that person is likely to be as impaired as someone who is over the adult breath/alcohol limit? How many pot smokers do you know then Grubber? Apart from Blackdog, of course.

[Grubber]

How many pot smokers do you know then Grubber? Apart from Blackdog, of course.

More than I like. Ex drivers a good start.
Most of them have families including kids that are living on the poverty line because thier useless fathers spend all thier money on dope and alcohol.
In these cases it is mostly dope.
Sad really.

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[bogan]

I beg to differ. Most people I know dont have a drink to get drunk.
Most people I know are not drunk after one drink or even 2 for that matter.
If you have had enough to be considered unable to operate a vehicle then you get sacked also. If you get caught on the road with more than a safe limit of alcohol then you get taken off the road.
I dont see how your argument is even similar.
I dont know anyone who has a toke and isnt high.
Quite diferent substances wouldn't you think.
I have no time for either, be it in a workplace or on the road.

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It is similar because the level of impairment for someone who get stoned on friday vs someone who gets pissed on friday will be the same come monday morning; yet only one of these people will fail a drug test and get fired.

Different substances for sure, but they are both drugs and people use and abuse them accordingly.

Or to put it another way, if pot was legal, would a failed drug test for pot in system still be grounds for termination of employment? or would some changes be required?

[Grubber]

Random tests are subject to levels testing after initial test. This determines if you keep your job or not. Same as with alcohol. Drug testing prior to starting determines if you will get a job or not.
Therefore if you have a toke Friday night and get tested Monday, if it shows low ammounts you get stood down for 5 days and retested. If you fail then your gone.
Think it a pretty fair system to be honest.
Gives people a chance to clean up and earn a good living.

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[Madness]

Most of them have families including kids that are living on the poverty line because thier useless fathers spend all thier money on dope and alcohol.
In these cases it is mostly dope.
Sad really.


Sad indeed I agree, it grows like a weed and nobody should have to pay for it. That's just plain criminal in itself.

[Madness]

Therefore if you have a toke Friday night and get tested Monday, if it shows low ammounts you get stood down for 5 days and retested. If you fail then your gone.

So after the 5 day period the second test won't show up any resulting traces of Cannabis from use 5 days or more prior then? Nada?

[Grubber]

Sad indeed I agree, it grows like a weed and nobody should have to pay for it. That's just plain criminal in itself.

And like I said, got no issue if they want to grow it and use at home.
Just not in our workplace and dont drive the same roads I ride on.


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[Grubber]

Correct.
If it increase your gone as you are if it stays the same.
They are given plenty of oportunity to sort it.

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[skippa1]

The issue for those of us that employ, is that OSH or Worksafe as they call themselves now, take great delight in prosecuting companies for "allowing" staff to take control of anything if they are impaired and have an incident or accident. At the moment, drug testing is the only officially accepted method of assessing impairment and the different test types are neither devised by the employer, nor the thresholds set by the employer. It's either non negative or negative.

Until there is some sort of "real" impairment test, or Worksafe stop trying to penalise an employer for an employees actions, the problem won't go away.

bring back personal responsibility

[bogan]

Random tests are subject to levels testing after initial test. This determines if you keep your job or not. Same as with alcohol. Drug testing prior to starting determines if you will get a job or not.
Therefore if you have a toke Friday night and get tested Monday, if it shows low ammounts you get stood down for 5 days and retested. If you fail then your gone.
Think it a pretty fair system to be honest.
Gives people a chance to clean up and earn a good living.

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But testing isn't the same as with alcohol as that dissipates from the system so much quicker. Ie, you can be hungover (very much impaired) as fuck and still breath test ok, yet be unimpaired but have had a toke three days ago (completely unimpaired at testing time) and get the boot, how is that a pretty fair system?

Clean up? go 5 years without drinking and then start preaching about being clean, sunshine.

[Grubber]

The issue for those of us that employ, is that OSH or Worksafe as they call themselves now, take great delight in prosecuting companies for "allowing" staff to take control of anything if they are impaired and have an incident or accident. At the moment, drug testing is the only officially accepted method of assessing impairment and the different test types are neither devised by the employer, nor the thresholds set by the employer. It's either non negative or negative.

Until there is some sort of "real" impairment test, or Worksafe stop trying to penalise an employer for an employees actions, the problem won't go away.

bring back personal responsibility

So true. We are at thier mercy at times.
We adopted our policies to both cover OSH as well as our own company policy that we felt we wanted to work by.
We allow the standown in order to allow ( hopefully) a somewhat decent human being to better themselves.
We are often astounded how many dont take that oportunity given to them.

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[bogan]

The issue for those of us that employ, is that OSH or Worksafe as they call themselves now, take great delight in prosecuting companies for "allowing" staff to take control of anything if they are impaired and have an incident or accident. At the moment, drug testing is the only officially accepted method of assessing impairment and the different test types are neither devised by the employer, nor the thresholds set by the employer. It's either non negative or negative.

Until there is some sort of "real" impairment test, or Worksafe stop trying to penalise an employer for an employees actions, the problem won't go away.

bring back personal responsibility

Yeh no problem with workplaces who enforce the law. Its the holier than thou crowd who would rather judge people than actually think about the problem that annoy me, and are also the ones who allow creation of somewhat unfair laws.

[Madness]

We allow the standown in order to allow ( hopefully) a somewhat decent human being to better themselves.
We are often astounded how many dont take that oportunity given to them.


Maybe those that don't take the opportunity decide they don't want to work for an organisation that considers them less than decent human beings because of their Cannabis use. Maybe they don't consider that ceasing to use Cannabis would somehow better them? Maybe they think you and your company are just narrow-minded bigots and life's just too short to put up with such bullshit?

Just a thought.

[Grubber]

But testing isn't the same as with alcohol as that dissipates from the system so much quicker. Ie, you can be hungover (very much impaired) as fuck and still breath test ok, yet be unimpaired but have had a toke three days ago (completely unimpaired at testing time) and get the boot, how is that a pretty fair system?

Clean up? go 5 years without drinking and then start preaching about being clean, sunshine.

Dont think you reading this very well. Tested for both drugs and alcohol at the same time.
If you are over on either or, you stand down for 5 days. Fuck me what's not fair about that. If you turn up with it still in your system you lose ya job.
Jeez what esle do you need to be able to follow simple rules that are clearly stated in you friggin contract.
If you dont thinks it fair its quite simple, fuck off and work somewhere else.

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[skippa1]

We allow the standown in order to allow ( hopefully) a somewhat decent human being to better themselves.
We are often astounded how many dont take that oportunity given to them.

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What?

there are a vast range of people out there that smoke a bit of weed. I don't, but fuck.....to insinuate that you are somehow superior to them is a bit fuckin rich.

i don't agree with people driving impaired and until there is a better way of measuring impairment I will use what is available to protect the company and the rest of the staff from the law........but make them better people?......"fuck off :facepalm:

[bogan]

Dont think you reading this very well. Tested for both drugs and alcohol at the same time.
If you are over on either or, you stand down for 5 days. Fuck me what's not fair about that. If you turn up with it still in your system you lose ya job.
Jeez what esle do you need to be able to follow simple rules that are clearly stated in you friggin contract.
If you dont thinks it fair its quite simple, fuck off and work somewhere else.

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What isn't fair is that you test them on monday, and fridays alcohol won't show but friday's dope will. How about saturday's booze vs friday's dope, sunday's booze? Bottom line is people are being penalised not due to their level of driving impairment but simply because their drug of choice is illegal and detectable for a long period of time. We've shot you down on the whole idea that one toke impairs ability for as long as the drug is in your system; why is it so hard to make the next logical leap?

I don't think you understand how 'fair' works, 'fuck off somewhere else' is not an acceptable counter to 'the system is demonstrably unfair' :facepalm:

[Grubber]

What isn't fair is that you test them on monday, and fridays alcohol won't show but friday's dope will. How about saturday's booze vs friday's dope, sunday's booze? Bottom line is people are being penalised not due to their level of driving impairment but simply because their drug of choice is illegal and detectable for a long period of time. We've shot you down on the whole idea that one toke impairs ability for as long as the drug is in your system; why is it so hard to make the next logical leap?

I don't think you understand how 'fair' works, 'fuck off somewhere else' is not an acceptable counter to 'the system is demonstrably unfair' :facepalm:

Yea it is. Your well informed right from the start. Its surely YOUR own drug of choise and NOT ours as the employer. Up to you init.
Yea alcohol has dissapared by Monday and NO You're not under the influence 2 days later like your trying to imply. If you turn up and get tested, showing alcohol in your system the same deal applys.
How bout we just flag all testing and you can take your chances on the road with the idiots, how many dead ya reckon it would take to sort you out.
Its really siimple mate, dont do booze or drugs and your good to go its a fairly international requirement these days for good reason

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[bogan]

Yea it is. Your well informed right from the start. Its surely YOUR own drug of choise and NOT ours as the employer. Up to you init.
Yea alcohol has dissapared by Monday and NO You're not under the influence 2 days later like your trying to imply. If you turn up and get tested, showing alcohol in your system the same deal applys.
How bout we just flag all testing and you can take your chances on the road with the idiots, how many dead ya reckon it would take to sort you out.
Its really siimple mate, dont do booze or drugs and your good to go its a fairly international requirement these days for good reason

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It isn't my choice, and that is not what I am trying to imply. My point is neither of those things impair performance on monday, yet one will get you fired. It is a point you seem to be trying to sidestep quite a lot.

[Grubber]

It isn't my choice, and that is not what I am trying to imply. My point is neither of those things impair performance on monday, yet one will get you fired. It is a point you seem to be trying to sidestep quite a lot.

If there is enough in your system it will. How bout just don't. Now theres an idea, how hard can that be.

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[bogan]

If there is enough in your system it will. How bout just don't. Now theres an idea, how hard can that be.

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And you have supporting evidence that this is both the case, and the level at which the tests are performed to?

Tell you what, you stay off booze as long as I stay off dope, then we'll see how hard it can be eh!

[mashman]

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/3610218752/hFFD796F1/

[R650R]

I'm not sure what those two are on in pic Mashman but its somehow impaired my train of thought as well... :)

Yes no one should be drugged or under alcohol influence in workplace but to seriously combat it the testing needs to be 100% independent and random dates.
That means no chance for management to give the guys they want to keep a heads up and also management level should be tested too.
The problem is in NZ usage is so widespread that no one can afford to tackle the problem properly without sinking their own business. One of my early jobs was in a factory, and I was quickly exposed to just how many dope smokers there are in our community. I came from a drug free family and background(and still am drug free 100%) and it was quite a shock how many were users.
That employer was one of the more successful local businesses and many of the workers were doing quite technical assembly work and iso9002 approved level. That company would have been toast if drug tested...

[SMOKEU]

If you get caught on the road with more than a safe limit of alcohol then you get taken off the road.


So, what is a "safe" limit of alcohol?

[Grubber]

I'm not sure what those two are on in pic Mashman but its somehow impaired my train of thought as well... :)

Yes no one should be drugged or under alcohol influence in workplace but to seriously combat it the testing needs to be 100% independent and random dates.
That means no chance for management to give the guys they want to keep a heads up and also management level should be tested too.
The problem is in NZ usage is so widespread that no one can afford to tackle the problem properly without sinking their own business. One of my early jobs was in a factory, and I was quickly exposed to just how many dope smokers there are in our community. I came from a drug free family and background(and still am drug free 100%) and it was quite a shock how many were users.
That employer was one of the more successful local businesses and many of the workers were doing quite technical assembly work and iso9002 approved level. That company would have been toast if drug tested...

I agree with your testing methods.
The testing agency we use comes in at random and not even management know until they arrive.
Yes I have tested right along with anyone else standing close by. It works.
As far as being widespread, if, as employers, we made a stand it would be gone.
We have as far as I can tell right now, nil usage.
One of our office ladies tested positive and got desk duties only and was warnes she would be tested again at random. When re tested a month later she failed again. She was dismissed. She had every opportunity to be clean but didnt. She used to have access to company vehicles during the day.

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[Bikemad]

before you answer dickhead smokeys question Grubber............ask him to outline the parameters for "responsible meth use"........his words

[Grubber]

And you have supporting evidence that this is both the case, and the level at which the tests are performed to?

Tell you what, you stay off booze as long as I stay off dope, then we'll see how hard it can be eh!

As for the levels...I take the word of the experts who do the testing on that.
As for the suporting evidence you speak of...thought all this was fairly common knowledge to be fair. Evidential breath test for alcohol is fairly well known followed by blood test for the more accurate results.
I dont need to drink at all, in fact havent had a drink for probably 2 months or more so it wouldnt worry me at all to have none.. How bout you? ?
Your argument seems to be about how unfair it is for a dope user to not get a job due to his choice of drug.
When in actual fact, that choice is yours and yours alone. Your responsibility full stop.

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[Grubber]

Wrong reply bugger. Bloody tapatalk.

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[bogan]

As for the levels...I take the word of the experts who do the testing on that.
As for the suporting evidence you speak of...thought all this was fairly common knowledge to be fair. Evidential breath test for alcohol is fairly well known followed by blood test for the more accurate results.
I dont need to drink at all, in fact havent had a drink for probably 2 months or more so it wouldnt worry me at all to have none.. How bout you? ?
Your argument seems to be about how unfair it is for a dope user to not get a job due to his choice of drug.
When in actual fact, that choice is yours and yours alone. Your responsibility full stop.

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Ok, so what is thew word of the experts then? Because the common knowledge I'm aware of is that since it is an illegal drug, any amount indicating it has been used is unnacceptable; rather than like the BAC limit which is based on the user being heavily impaired at the time of testing.
Been alcohol free for 3 or 4 years now.
That is my point, and your 'actual fact' does absolutely nothing to address the point that it is unfairly harshly tested for under the guise of impairment when compared to other potentially impairing drugs like alcohol. Your argument is like saying it is fair to charge us bikers $7,000 a year in rego because we can choose not to ride; an ability to choose has nothing to do with how fair something is. You want to show it is fair, then prove getting stoned on friday night gives the same level of impairment come monday morning as a 6pack breakfast; because that is how the level of impairment is compared.

[Grubber]

Ok, so what is thew word of the experts then? Because the common knowledge I'm aware of is that since it is an illegal drug, any amount indicating it has been used is unnacceptable; rather than like the BAC limit which is based on the user being heavily impaired at the time of testing.
Been alcohol free for 3 or 4 years now.
That is my point, and your 'actual fact' does absolutely nothing to address the point that it is unfairly harshly tested for under the guise of impairment when compared to other potentially impairing drugs like alcohol. Your argument is like saying it is fair to charge us bikers $7,000 a year in rego because we can choose not to ride; an ability to choose has nothing to do with how fair something is. You want to show it is fair, then prove getting stoned on friday night gives the same level of impairment come monday morning as a 6pack breakfast; because that is how the level of impairment is compared.

Its sounds like you want us as employers to allow you the user to accomodate an illegal drug. Not sure why we should.
It does impair, like it or not, how much becomes irrelevant in that case.
In comparison to alcohol, we make no exception for either.
If you arrive to work after a 6 pack breakfast as you say, you wont have a job either.
Not sure what it is you dont understand about that.
It is fullstop unacceptable to have either in your system whilst operating any machinery.
Maybe if you stopped trying to make it our problem that you smoke dope or drink or whatever you may do and take responsibility for your own choices it would stop being and issue for the employer.
Regardless of the ammounts of either substance.
Like someone said earlier, people need to be responsible for themselves, just like us the employer is by not accepting these drugs in our workplace. Our choice, your choice.

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[bogan]

Its sounds like you want us as employers to allow you the user to accomodate an illegal drug. Not sure why we should.
It does impair, like it or not, how much becomes irrelevant in that case.
In comparison to alcohol, we make no exception for either.
If you arrive to work after a 6 pack breakfast as you say, you wont have a job either.
Not sure what it is you dont understand about that.
It is fullstop unacceptable to have either in your system whilst operating any machinery.
Maybe if you stopped trying to make it our problem that you smoke dope or drink or whatever you may do and take responsibility for your own choices it would stop being and issue for the employer.
Regardless of the ammounts of either substance.
Like someone said earlier, people need to be responsible for themselves, just like us the employer is by not accepting these drugs in our workplace. Our choice, your choice.

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Not at all, as I've already said a number of times, upholding the law is a good enough reason. However you take it a few steps further and treat users of it as lesser people; that blind judgement is what I disagree with.
Evidence that it significantly impairs throughout the period that it is detectable please. You keep trying to make this point but never back it up.
Really, do you test to a more stringent BAC level than police do then? How about one beer for breakfast, keep your job? Cos that stays in system and impairs you.
You need to wake up and stop treating people as lesser beings simply because their drug of choice is different to 'mainstream' NZ'rs. Anyone with a smidge of objectivity can see the testing between them is vastly skewed to penalise one more than the other; I fail to see why you try so hard to hold on to the illusion it is not.

[trustme]

Its sounds like you want us as employers to allow you the user to accomodate an illegal drug. Not sure why we should.
It does impair, like it or not, how much becomes irrelevant in that case.
In comparison to alcohol, we make no exception for either.
If you arrive to work after a 6 pack breakfast as you say, you wont have a job either.
Not sure what it is you dont understand about that.
It is fullstop unacceptable to have either in your system whilst operating any machinery.
Maybe if you stopped trying to make it our problem that you smoke dope or drink or whatever you may do and take responsibility for your own choices it would stop being and issue for the employer.
Regardless of the ammounts of either substance.
Like someone said earlier, people need to be responsible for themselves, just like us the employer is by not accepting these drugs in our workplace. Our choice, your choice.

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Stop wasting your time. The fucktards will keep taking drugs or turning up to work pissed. You & I will continue to sack them. Same old same old. They end up being unemployable [ I know a few like that ] , then it is everyone else fault, & it's so unfair .:killingme:killingme:killingme

[Grubber]

Not at all, as I've already said a number of times, upholding the law is a good enough reason. However you take it a few steps further and treat users of it as lesser people; that blind judgement is what I disagree with.
Evidence that it significantly impairs throughout the period that it is detectable please. You keep trying to make this point but never back it up.
Really, do you test to a more stringent BAC level than police do then? How about one beer for breakfast, keep your job? Cos that stays in system and impairs you.
You need to wake up and stop treating people as lesser beings simply because their drug of choice is different to 'mainstream' NZ'rs. Anyone with a smidge of objectivity can see the testing between them is vastly skewed to penalise one more than the other; I fail to see why you try so hard to hold on to the illusion it is not.

You can have alcohol detected on the breath correct. From this it is evident it is in your system. From that point you can do a variety of tests to determine if it will effect impairment. Correct.
Dope can be similar. First test detects it in the system. Next one determines how much.
At our level we detect and then we stand down till we are comfortable that it is at an acceptable level. Which is nil.
How the experts determine those levels isnt my department but I do trust them to have that sorted.
Jeez im not even sure I know how they sorted the breath alcohol bit but I do trust them to have done it properly.
We have accepted alcohol testing on our roads for years, how is it that you are not prepared to accept the testing for dope.
I can answer that!
You dont want to cause it doesnt suit your choices anymore.

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[Grubber]

Stop wasting your time. The fucktards will keep taking drugs or turning up to work pissed. You & I will continue to sack them. Same old same old. They end up being unemployable [ I know a few like that ] , then it is everyone else fault, & it's so unfair .:killingme:killingme:killingme

My God you are so right. They seem to be looking for an escape clause all the time. Like we should treat them differently to anyone else. Im quite happy to get rid of anyone who uses dope or alcohol on the job. If they were more professional about their personal life they might actually get somewhere.

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[bogan]

You can have alcohol detected on the breath correct. From this it is evident it is in your system. From that point you can do a variety of tests to determine if it will effect impairment. Correct.
Dope can be similar. First test detects it in the system. Next one determines how much.
At our level we detect and then we stand down till we are comfortable that it is at an acceptable level. Which is nil.
How the experts determine those levels isnt my department but I do trust them to have that sorted.
Jeez im not even sure I know how they sorted the breath alcohol bit but I do trust them to have done it properly.
We have accepted alcohol testing on our roads for years, how is it that you are not prepared to accept the testing for dope.
I can answer that!
You dont want to cause it doesnt suit your choices anymore.

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"From that point you can do a variety of tests to determine if it will effect impairment."

"At our level we detect and then we stand down till we are comfortable that it is at an acceptable level. Which is nil."

See the difference, one gets tested for impairment and one for presence; doesn't sound like they are being treated equally at all to me.

I'll spell it out for you again, dope is illegal, therefor any level is unacceptable and the law; thus the experts need not bother with impairment level.

Don't want to do what? and to what choices do you refer?

[bogan]

My God you are so right. They seem to be looking for fair treatment all the time. Like we should treat them as equals. Im quite happy to get rid of anyone who uses alcohol on the job, or dope at all. If they were more professional about their personal life they might actually get somewhere.

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I noticed a few points that don't stack up with your earlier comment, please accept my ammendments :innocent:

That last sentence stacks up though, I mean who could think you personal life was none of your employers business eh :facepalm:

[Grubber]

"From that point you can do a variety of tests to determine if it will effect impairment."

"At our level we detect and then we stand down till we are comfortable that it is at an acceptable level. Which is nil."

See the difference, one gets tested for impairment and one for presence; doesn't sound like they are being treated equally at all to me.

I'll spell it out for you again, dope is illegal, therefor any level is unacceptable and the law; thus the experts need not bother with impairment level.

Don't want to do what? and to what choices do you refer?

Fuck me bro. It applys to both.
Simple really. If you smoke dope your down if you drink and get tested equally your fuckin down
Read the bloody thing properly.
Either way just don't do either if you want a job with me.
How fuckin hard is that to understand.
Noy even sure why I need to justify that.
If one of my trucks ploughed into your car and killed ya kids becuase the driver had one or both in his system, you would want to know why he was even behind the wheel for sure. You would have the placards up if that happened.

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[Madness]

Not at all, as I've already said a number of times, upholding the law is a good enough reason. However you take it a few steps further and treat users of it as lesser people; that blind judgement is what I disagree with.
Evidence that it significantly impairs throughout the period that it is detectable please. You keep trying to make this point but never back it up.
Really, do you test to a more stringent BAC level than police do then? How about one beer for breakfast, keep your job? Cos that stays in system and impairs you.
You need to wake up and stop treating people as lesser beings simply because their drug of choice is different to 'mainstream' NZ'rs. Anyone with a smidge of objectivity can see the testing between them is vastly skewed to penalise one more than the other; I fail to see why you try so hard to hold on to the illusion it is not.

Stop wasting your time. The fucktards will keep believing the myths from the 1930's and 1940's despite the law reforms sweeping western culture. Good people will continue to be sacked by them and their mates out of ignorance and with no evidence of actual impairment. Same old same old. These companies end up being full of foreigners and boring old white cunts (I know a few like that) then it is everyone elses fault, & so unfair when their companies struggle finding any good workers at all :killingme:killingme:killingme

[Grubber]

I noticed a few points that don't stack up with your earlier comment, please accept my ammendments :innocent:

That last sentence stacks up though, I mean who could think you personal life was none of your employers business eh :facepalm:

What the hell.
Ive been telling uou for the last day that either in your system will get you a stand down.
Are you actually reading them or are you too stoned to take it in.
Theres that equal bit popping up. So you want to treates different to anyone else?
Rightly or wrongly, the employees personal life is none of our business. We not fuckin babysitters.

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[Madness]

Rightly or wrongly, the employees personal life is none of our business. We not fuckin babysitters.

OMFG, did you actually just type those words yourself?


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Jebus! :facepalm:

Still, I'm glad you're not fucking babysitters. I'd be jealous.

[Grubber]

Stop wasting your time. The fucktards will keep believing the myths from the 1930's and 1940's despite the law reforms sweeping western culture. Good people will continue to be sacked by them and their mates out of ignorance and with no evidence of actual impairment. Same old same old. These companies end up being full of foreigners and boring old white cunts (I know a few like that) then it is everyone elses fault, & so unfair when their companies struggle finding any good workers at all :killingme:killingme:killingme

Funny. We have no problem getting really good operators. Knockin at the door.
Mostly due to them looking to get out of drug infested workplaces.
Sorry Madness but the argument about impairment to me is your fellas way of looking for some way out of your drug infested habbit.
You guys know that when you toke you are impaired, you just wont admit it. Too what extent, im not prepared to gamble on that one with other peoples lives and my company at risk.

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[bogan]

What the hell.
Ive been telling uou for the last day that either in your system will get you a stand down.
Are you actually reading them or are you too stoned to take it in.
Theres that equal bit popping up. So you want to treates different to anyone else?
Rightly or wrongly, the employees personal life is none of our business. We not fuckin babysitters.

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Ok, lets try something with a little more research, what are your numerical limits in each of those cases?

Obviously I'm reading it as my points are pretty concise and direct, you just can't answer them without diversion; thus it seems more likely you are on drugs than I.
Equal, as in, use driving impairment levels as the metric for both cases.
Indeed, so why are you judging employees based on what they did friday night when it has no effect on monday morning?


Stop wasting your time. The fucktards will keep believing the myths from the 1930's and 1940's despite the law reforms sweeping western culture. Good people will continue to be sacked by them and their mates out of ignorance and with no evidence of actual impairment. Same old same old. These companies end up being full of foreigners and boring old white cunts (I know a few like that) then it is everyone elses fault, & so unfair when their companies struggle finding any good workers at all :killingme:killingme:killingme

Yeh but it is interesting to see just how much they will squirm around to keep those myths alive. Nice to note than many just do the enforcement because it is the law/liability issues rather than swallowing the myths whole.

[trustme]

OMFG, did you actually just type those words yourself?



Jebus! :facepalm:

Still, I'm glad you're not fucking babysitters. I'd be jealous.

What you do in your private life is none of my business, unfortunately all too often employees bring their private life to work. I'm sick of nose wiping & sorting out fucked the up private lives of employees. Don't make your problems mine .
' Oh but you are so heartless & clearly a bad employer '
Years of dealing with fucktards made me so

[Madness]

Funny. We have no problem getting really good operators. Knockin at the door.
Mostly due to them looking to get out of drug infested workplaces.

But you were saying that OSH (or Workplace as they're now known) have created an environment where employers have no choice but to screen as you do? How then are there still drug infested workplaces? Do you have people from the advertising industry knocking on your door maybe? More like you're full of shit.


Sorry Madness but the argument about impairment to me is your fellas way of looking for some way out of your drug infested habbit.
You guys know that when you toke you are impaired, you just wont admit it.

You don't know what the fuck you're talking about, once again. I have a Cannabis habit, hardly what I would consider a "drug infested habit" at all. Is that something you picked up from the testing "experts" pamphlets? You're a fucking joke.


Too what extent, im not prepared to gamble on that one with other peoples lives and my company at risk.

In other words, you're a bunch of discriminatory soft-cocks who are happy to buy into the drug testing industry built on hysteria and paranoia. Sweet, it's not like I'm ever going to lower my standards to work for you cunts anyway.


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No spellcheck on that shit then, huh?

[Madness]

What you do in your private life is none of my business, unfortunately all too often employees bring their private life to work. I'm sick of nose wiping & sorting out fucked the up private lives of employees. Don't make your problems mine .
' Oh but you are so heartless & clearly a bad employer '
Years of dealing with fucktards made me so

By taking action against an employee over a test using current methodology that merely confirms the residual presence of Cannabinoids you are indeed sticking your dirty big Jewish nose into their private lives.

Turning up to work on Monday morning after having a joint on Saturday night is not bringing your private life to work any more than if it were 2 dozen beersies instead.

I'm going to go to work tomorrow happy in the knowledge I don't have to work for either of you two fools.

[Grubber]

But you were saying that OSH (or Workplace as they're now known) have created an environment where employers have no choice but to screen as you do? How then are there still drug infested workplaces? Do you have people from the advertising industry knocking on your door maybe? More like you're full of shit.



You don't know what the fuck you're talking about, once again. I have a Cannabis habit, hardly what I would consider a "drug infested habit" at all. Is that something you picked up from the testing "experts" pamphlets? You're a fucking joke.



In other words, you're a bunch of discriminatory soft-cocks who are happy to buy into the drug testing industry built on hysteria and paranoia. Sweet, it's not like I'm ever going to lower my standards to work for you cunts anyway.



No spellcheck on that shit then, huh?

Just recently one of my sub contractor's had an accident and involving one of thier trucks. It basically ran up the arse of a car crawling behind another truck that was also behind a wideload travelling at a speed of 70 k. He killed both occupants of the car and caused millions of dollars worth of damage. He fuckin tested to having huge ammounts of THC in his system. Enough to indicate a joint within the last 3 hours.
Would you be happy with that on ya concience.
I actually think you would.
As for a job....seriously do you think we would ever employ someone like yourself.
Your words are fruitless lad. Your arguments are all solely based on your usage and how your being discrimated against. Nobody asked you to smoke pot did they!
Alcohol was widely used and people used to druve anything from horse and cart through to later model cars with no laws.
Times have changed.
Would you still be happy for there to be no drink drive laws?

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[bogan]

Just recently one of my sub contractor's had an accident and involving one of thier trucks. It basically ran up the arse of a car crawling behind another truck that was also behind a wideload travelling at a speed of 70 k. He killed both occupants of the car and caused millions of dollars worth of damage. He fuckin tested to having huge ammounts of THC in his system. Enough to indicate a joint within the last 3 hours.
Would you be happy with that on ya concience.
I actually think you would.
As for a job....seriously do you think we would ever employ someone like yourself.
Your words are fruitless lad. Your arguments are all solely based on your usage and how your being discrimated against. Nobody asked you to smoke pot did they!
Alcohol was widely used and people used to druve anything from horse and cart through to later model cars with no laws.
Times have changed.
Would you still be happy for there to be no drink drive laws?

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Was actually near one of my job sites so I can recall some other facts reported that make you sound like you are full of shit.
"The level of THC in Newman's blood was consistent with him having smoked a cannabis cigarette between one and seven hours before the crash."
""It is accepted that THC possibly stays elevated in the blood when used consistently," the judge said. "There is no evidence it had a causitive effect, but it must be taken into account."
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/10408730/Cannabis-in-drivers-system-after-fiery-crash

[trustme]

By taking action against an employee over a test using current methodology that merely confirms the residual presence of Cannabinoids you are indeed sticking your dirty big Jewish nose into their private lives.

Turning up to work on Monday morning after having a joint on Saturday night is not bringing your private life to work any more than if it were 2 dozen beersies instead.

I'm going to go to work tomorrow happy in the knowledge I don't have to work for either of you two fools.

NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE . The terms of employment are crystal clear from day one, you know what you are getting into when we employ you. Fuck up & you are gone. It's taken me years to reach the point where I will no longer tolerate the likes of you

[Madness]

Just recently one of my sub contractor's had an accident and involving one of thier trucks. It basically ran up the arse of a car crawling behind another truck that was also behind a wideload travelling at a speed of 70 k. He killed both occupants of the car and caused millions of dollars worth of damage. He fuckin tested to having huge ammounts of THC in his system. Enough to indicate a joint within the last 3 hours.


Fat lot of good all this drug testing did then, innit?


Would you be happy with that on ya concience.
I actually think you would.

Are you saying it weighs on yours? Harden up bitch, ever heard of personal responsibility? Maybe if you and your subbies hired people based on having some of that rather than a flawed drug test result, your subbie wouldn't have caused so much carnage.

I bet you wore your cape a lot that week, eh?


As for a job....seriously do you think we would ever employ someone like yourself.

Do you seriously think I'd be interested in anything as boring as driving a load of onions from A to B? I think deep sleep would me more mentally stimulating. In fact, it's a wonder your biggest issue isn't workplace suicide.


Your words are fruitless lad. Your arguments are all solely based on your usage and how your being discrimated against. Nobody asked you to smoke pot did they!

My words are fruitless in so much as you'll always be an ignorant fuckhead, I accept that. My argument on this subject is the same as Bogan's, it's about equality. Nobody asked a gay person to be gay either - imagine if your daughter turned dyke, lol!


Alcohol was widely used and people used to druve anything from horse and cart through to later model cars with no laws.
Times have changed.
Would you still be happy for there to be no drink drive laws?

People used Cannabis for centuries before there were any laws against it, what's your point?

Of course we need drink drive laws, just as we need laws to prevent people from driving whilst impaired by any drugs. Simply persecuting people for having traces of Cannabinoids is unjust.

Why do you think the law enforcement agencies don't do roadside testing for the presence of Cannabinoids, Groober?


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Quite appropriate really, innit? I mean it's almost as boring and repetitive as your actual posts.

[Madness]

NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE . The terms of employment are crystal clear from day one, you know what you are getting into when we employ you. Fuck up & you are gone. It's taken me years to reach the point where I will no longer tolerate the likes of you

Sweet, name your company then and do us all a favour. I'll start a thread; other cunty organisations to avoid"I

[Grubber]

Madness!
Its painfully obvious you and Bogan are tokes up.
You have missed virtually any connection or point that has ever been made by either myaelf or anyone else.
You will never get it.
You states there was no laws against canabis years ago, the same as I pointed out for alcohol also. There is now for alcohol and also canabis. Did you miss that point somewhere.
Jeez what the fuck is your point ya goof.
Im gonna move on as I am bored with your rubbish now.
Maybe the 2 of you can scrap amongst yourselves.
All you seem to be keen om doing is hurley pointleas abuse really. Slightly teenage material.

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[trustme]

You launch a personal attack on a company. Care to put your real name forward .

[Madness]

Madness!
Its painfully obvious you and Bogan are tokes up.
You have missed virtually any connection or point that has ever been made by either myaelf or anyone else.
You will never get it.
You states there was no laws against canabis years ago, the same as I pointed out for alcohol also. There is now for alcohol and also canabis. Did you miss that point somewhere.
Jeez what the fuck is your point ya goof.
Im gonna move on as I am bored with your rubbish now.
Maybe the 2 of you can scrap amongst yourselves.
All you seem to be keen om doing is hurley pointleas abuse really. Slightly teenage material.

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Thick as pigshit, aren't ya Groober? Oh well, someone has to shift dem onions I suppose.


You launch a personal attack on a company. Care to put your real name forward .

Get fucked. Care to stop being a fucking hypocrite?

[bogan]

Madness!
Its painfully obvious you and Bogan are tokes up.
You have missed virtually any connection or point that has ever been made by either myaelf or anyone else.
You will never get it.
You states there was no laws against canabis years ago, the same as I pointed out for alcohol also. There is now for alcohol and also canabis. Did you miss that point somewhere.
Jeez what the fuck is your point ya goof.
Im gonna move on as I am bored with your rubbish now.
Maybe the 2 of you can scrap amongst yourselves.
All you seem to be keen om doing is hurley pointleas abuse really. Slightly teenage material.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk

Huh, so much for your ability to pick the dopeheads :killingme I've never toked up or otherwise got high on dope in my life.

I'm still waiting on the numerical limits you work to so we can investigate how the levels of impairment are obtained and margins for errors etc. Cos I'm betting it'll be just like the example you implied was caused by pot, which the judge said "There is no evidence it had a causitive effect". Guess it is no wonder you're trying to move on as your baseless prejudices have been clearly exposed now.

[caspernz]

Well thank you gents for an amusing read :facepalm:

I wonder if the OP still has plans on furthering his entry into the realm of trucking :innocent: when the subject of drug testing evokes such misguided passion on both sides of the fence?

Is drug testing fair compared to testing for alcohol? Of course not, but the transport operator doesn't make the rules, they're just expected to comply. Bit like arguing with a Police officer kerbside why 120 km/h isn't really speeding because the limit should be higher :facepalm:

I had a nice ride today, shame some of you spent a lot of time pissing in the wind :laugh:

[Bikemad]

Well thank you gents for an amusing read :facepalm:

I wonder if the OP still has plans on furthering his entry into the realm of trucking :innocent: when the subject of drug testing evokes such misguided passion on both sides of the fence?

Is drug testing fair compared to testing for alcohol? Of course not, but the transport operator doesn't make the rules, they're just expected to comply. Bit like arguing with a Police officer kerbside why 120 km/h isn't really speeding because the limit should be higher :facepalm:

I had a nice ride today, shame some of you spent a lot of time pissing in the wind :laugh:

best post so far.............sadly the stoners will never get the point...........the whole worlds against them..........paranoid fucktards

[unstuck]

best post so far.............sadly the stoners will never get the point...........the whole worlds against them..........paranoid fucktards

What a fuckwit statement.:tugger:

Heaps of truck driving jobs down here for anyone who wants to work for $16.50- $18.50 pr hr. Most of the transport operators down here are hiring at the moment.

[Bikemad]

yeah sorry bout that........not my best work but in my defence i was a tad impaired....Go the Warriors
heres one for the stoner advocates to think on
Lets say your child is in hospital about to undergo life threatening surgery on a monday morning.Ten minutes before the op you learn the surgeon has just failed a drug test and admits to having a spliff and a couple of jugs on Saturday night.Its all good says the hospital,we don't think he is "impaired "although they can offer no real proof of this,just opinion.They have another surgeon available with the exact same skillset but he passed the drug test............now in all fairness,seems to be one of the advocates fav terms,which surgeon would you prefer to open up little johnny............more food for thought how many of you guys recall the phrase "short term memory loss"..........hell i bet some of you have even joked and laughed about it in the past usually a day or two after ya last toke.....i know i have....does this not display a level of impairment?

[bogan]

yeah sorry bout that........not my best work but in my defence i was a tad impaired....Go the Warriors
heres one for the stoner advocates to think on
Lets say your child is in hospital about to undergo life threatening surgery on a monday morning.Ten minutes before the op you learn the surgeon has just failed a drug test and admits to having a spliff and a couple of jugs on Saturday night.Its all good says the hospital,we don't think he is "impaired "although they can offer no real proof of this,just opinion.They have another surgeon available with the exact same skillset but he passed the drug test............now in all fairness,seems to be one of the advocates fav terms,which surgeon would you prefer to open up little johnny............more food for thought how many of you guys recall the phrase "short term memory loss"..........hell i bet some of you have even joked and laughed about it in the past usually a day or two after ya last toke.....i know i have....does this not display a level of impairment?

In all fairness, the couple of jugs concern me as much as the spliff...

Additionally, if it was in all fairness he wouldn't have failed the drug test and had the hospital not think he was impaired.

But yeh, I'd prefer the clean guy. An other thing I would prefer though, is a normal weight person to an obese one; does that mean fatties shouldn't be allowed to drive trucks?

[Bikemad]

In all fairness, the couple of jugs concern me as much as the spliff...

Additionally, if it was in all fairness he wouldn't have failed the drug test and had the hospital not think he was impaired.

But yeh, I'd prefer the clean guy. An other thing I would prefer though, is a normal weight person to an obese one; does that mean fatties shouldn't be allowed to drive trucks?

if the fatty is mentally impaired then no he shouldn't be allowed to drive anything i guess........

[bogan]

if the fatty is mentally impaired then no he shouldn't be allowed to drive anything i guess........

Neither should the guy who used drugs on the weekend, if he is mentally impaired That is what the whole thing boils down to; there is no need for emotionally charged hypotheticals, get straight to the point and start working on the core of the problem, impairment. How much of the drug is tested for? how much of the drug causes impairment? Seems the anti dope brigade have no more answers (and quite possibly less) to these simple questions than the potheads do.

[unstuck]

Have you been smoking? Of course you want the best for your kids, stoner or not, but to bring up that sort of an argument in a thread about truck driving kinda gives me the impression you are either a) stoned as a motherfucker, or b) dumb as a motherfucker. Not all stoners are paranoid fuckheads, just as all policemen are not money collecting assholes. I have been smoking weed for 30+ years, been driving trucks most of that time one way or another, never had an accident, never been caught speeding, never had an insecure load, in fact only ever been pulled over in a truck twice, once for a quick question about all the bees hanging around the truck, once for a log book check. My neighbor is a professional truck driver, works for a well respected transport operator, is very anti drugs, drinks to oblivion on the weekends watching the rugby, and has written off about 6 trucks in the last 10 years and killed a heap of cows in one crash against a train. Another drug hating employer down here forgot to tie a 20 tonner on the back of a transporter, and lost it over a bank which destroyed it. He had just caught an employee of his having a doobie with a mate on his day off and let his anger about drugs cloud his judgement. Drug test workers if you want, but include alcohol in that, otherwise it is an unfair test. Once you lump all potheads in the same basket, your no better than the little whiney bitches coming on here crying about all cops being assholes.:bleh:

[Bikemad]

thats right Bogan...........the potheads have no real evidence to prove they aren't impaired,although you haven't commented on the short term memory thing i notice........but the reality is if you have NO detectable traces of THC in your system stands to reason you are not THC impaired........you may have other issues however
and Unstuck they do test for alcohol as well

[unstuck]

and Unstuck they do test for alcohol as well

Then how can most of the transport companies in our area keep operating? Just about every truck driver down this way are real pissheads and spend most weekends pissed to the eyeballs. The test must be wrong or ineffective. Or, if they find alcohol in someones system, they ignore it when the operator says "I had a hard weekend". But if they find thc in your system, there is a big song and dance about it. The shearing industry is starting to feel the effects of drug testing, they cannot find workers to fill the gaps now and is why not many contractors are willing to implement it in their gangs. Dont get me wrong though, if some dude rocks up for work stoned as a motherfucker, he should be getting a DCM, but we should be allowed a smoke on our time off, just like people are allowed a drink after work. There are people out there who should not be allowed near any vehicle full stop, let alone after a night out on the piss, or a couple of smokes with a mate. But I have my own truck, and do what I want, so dont really care. I look after my own saftey, and have got a good record for moving a lot of expensive machinery around the country. My biggest beef in this thread has been the lumping all pot smokers in the same basket, which IMO is a fucked up attitude to have. :Punk::Punk:

[Bikemad]

Of course you want the best for your kids

but you are prepared to compromise this when it comes time for them to get a license and start driving it would seem
and you seem to forget.......that'll be the short term thing again.........pot is illegal...........booze isn't........hey i don't make the rules

[Madness]

pot is illegal

Testing positive for having traces in your system isn't though, is it?


hey i don't make the rules

Thank fuck for small mercies.

[bogan]

thats right Bogan...........the potheads have no real evidence to prove they aren't impaired,although you haven't commented on the short term memory thing i notice........but the reality is if you have NO detectable traces of THC in your system stands to reason you are not THC impaired........you may have other issues however
and Unstuck they do test for alcohol as well

Actually they do, but here I thought we went with the approach of innocent until proven guilty as well; silly me I guess :rolleyes: I'm still waiting for groober to fill us in on the levels they test to so we can discuss impairment levels in that frame of reference. But it seems he would rather just lie about past incidents to support his prejudices instead.

Short term memory thing? I can't comment on that wrt dope as I don't use it (the dope that is, my short term memory gets a workout). Not sure if this counts, but yesterday I was doing a lot of skill sawing, using a straight edge as a guide, only once did I fuck up the measurement by using the value I wanted instead of the value I wanted minus the saw offset. So I guess my short term memory is pretty good fwiw.

[Akzle]

yeah sorry bout that........not my best work but in my defence i was a tad impaired....Go the Warriors
heres one for the stoner advocates to think on
Lets say your child is in hospital about to undergo life threatening surgery on a monday morning.Ten minutes before the op you learn the surgeon has just failed a drug test and admits to having a spliff and a couple of jugs on Saturday night.Its all good says the hospital,we don't think he is "impaired "although they can offer no real proof of this,just opinion.They have another surgeon available with the exact same skillset but he passed the drug test............now in all fairness,seems to be one of the advocates fav terms,which surgeon would you prefer to open up little johnny............more food for thought how many of you guys recall the phrase "short term memory loss"..........hell i bet some of you have even joked and laughed about it in the past usually a day or two after ya last toke.....i know i have....does this not display a level of impairment?

that wouldn't concern me in the least, as long as "a couple of jugs" was all it was. fuck, i wouldn't care if he was stoned while operating.
i would prefer a doctor/surgeon who had the smarts/balls to think an act for himself than some DHB pissant who's selling the company line.

[Bikemad]

that wouldn't concern me in the least, as long as "a couple of jugs" was all it was. fuck, i wouldn't care if he was stoned while operating.


:killingme and there in lies the proof that sustained pot use impairs ones judgement

[Akzle]

:killingme and there in lies the proof that sustained pot use impairs ones judgement

what do you do?
if it's something i can do, we'll have a do-off. i'll smoke pot, you do whatever you want pre-do. then we can compare what's done.

[Bikemad]

what do you do?
if it's something i can do, we'll have a do-off. i'll smoke pot, you do whatever you want pre-do. then we can compare what's done.

im a substance abuse rehabilitation counsellor at Odessey House:innocent:
got ya fucked now eh fella

[Akzle]

im a substance abuse rehabilitation counsellor at Odessey House:innocent:
got ya fucked now eh fella

not really. i can do that shit stoned.

[Bikemad]

not really. i can do that shit stoned.

oh man........what a come back :facepalm: there are none so blind that will not see

[unstuck]

im a substance abuse rehabilitation counsellor at Odessey House:innocent:
got ya fucked now eh fella

That is either the biggest load of shit on KB at the moment, or you have a really crappy attitude to counseling substance abusers. :laugh::laugh:

[caspernz]

The OP must be thrilled at how this topic has gone way off target...:bleh:

[Akzle]

The OP must be thrilled at how this topic has gone way off target...:bleh:

this IS kb...

[bogan]

The OP must be thrilled at how this topic has gone way off target...:bleh:

Better a thread off course than a B-Train, yeh! ;)

[Bikemad]

more food for thought how many of you guys recall the phrase "short term memory loss"..........hell i bet some of you have even joked and laughed about it in the past usually a day or two after ya last toke.....i know i have....does this not display a level of impairment?

i guess the stoners forgot the question :laugh:

[R650R]

The OP must be thrilled at how this topic has gone way off target...:bleh:

It only took two pages and 30 posts LOL....

Just imagine the denial and outrage if same discussion was on that other forum or one of those FB pages :corn:
The worry some used to have about crash pics... I think more damage is done to industry image now by the comments of own members on those FB pages...

At least here it is a somewhat civilised if not extremely varied debate

[Madness]

i guess the stoners forgot the question :laugh:

And the fuckwits continue to avoid the questions...

[bogan]

i guess the stoners forgot the question :laugh:

Or it is just a really shit question...

[Bikemad]

And the fuckwits continue to avoid the questions... doesn't matter if it's legal or not really plonker but if it's in their employment contract which they signed then they have no out really do they............and don't be so harsh on yaself

Or it is just a really shit question...
but still one you and the other stoners seem reluctant to answer...........quite simple yes or no

[Madness]

doesn't matter if it's legal or not really plonker but if it's in their employment contract which they signed then they have no out really do they............and don't be so harsh on yaself

A quite simple yes or no would have sufficed. You should be in politics with the other fuckheads.

Ever heard of the word "ethics"?

[Bikemad]

ok then i'm gonna go with yes......if you are operating heavy machinery on a public road............which is what this whole debate is about isn't it

we need to get scummy or rastus here to sort this out

[Madness]

ok then i'm gonna go with yes......if you are operating heavy machinery on a public road............which is what this whole debate is about isn't it

we need to get scummy or rastus here to sort this out

You might need a Popo to sort yourself out but please don't speak for me.

If the answer is indeed yes, then why do transport operators not call the Popo in when a driver tests positive? One would think (if you are correct and I believe you're not) that the transport operators would want the driver prosecuted if in fact the mere presence of cannabinoids in ones system was in itself illegal, assuming of course they do have an interest in safety.

If it were illegal for one to merely have cannabinoids present in ones system then why don't the Popo simply randomly screen at the roadside? I think you'll find that a set of tests designed to detect actual impairment is conducted roadside first and if failed, clinical drug tests are then performed from fluid samples collected. All quite draconian and inaccurate, but at least the Popo firstly look for actual impairment, rather than persecute based on lifestyle choices.

Anyhoo fuck off, it's spot time.

[trustme]

A quite simple yes or no would have sufficed. You should be in politics with the other fuckheads.

Ever heard of the word "ethics"?

Pal, if you had even a nodding acquaintance with ethics you would not have mentioned a companies name in your childish petulant & totally baseless spiteful smear of a companies reputation in post 133 #
Your post told us nothing about the company, unfortunately it told us far more about you than anyone could ever possibly ever wish to know.
If you find the contempt in which I hold you hurtful I suggest you seek solace in the knowledge that at least in your case the contempt is well earned.
Grubber & I could not be bothered posting again given with the BS in this thread, but then you spout on about ethics. :crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy: Give me a break.

Good luck to the OP in finding a job in the transport industry.

[bogan]

but still one you and the other stoners seem reluctant to answer...........quite simple yes or no

I answered it before. Poor memory eh? :lol:

It is a shit question because you are asking people to remember when they forget; which is kind of contrary to the meaning of the 'forget' part; in addition to the ambiguously interpreted terminology of 'short term memory'.

[bogan]

For you Madness.
You need to keep up with the play mate!

They have been testing for some time now.

To what levels? 3hr joints beforehand/5days before margin of error like that other stuff?

Also, if you think keeping up with the play means reading facebooks, perhaps you should submit yourself for impairment testing immediately; who knows what toher bullshit you may have swallowed whole.

[Grubber]

It comes from the cviu connection mate. Its their page. Cant get much better than that. But you can go on disbelieving everything if you want.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk

[Madness]

They have been testing for some time now.

You're right. Testing for impairment, unlike you cunts.

I wonder how Bryce Cook feels about you dragging not only his name, but his image also into this discussion. Hmmm...

BTW, I'm not your mate.

[bogan]

It comes from the cviu connection mate. Its their page. Cant get much better than that. But you can go on disbelieving everything if you want.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk

Sounds like you missed telling the whole story again... That's why I don't use the farcebook to keep up with the play. Perhaps they have a media or press release page?

Jeez this is just like twin brake lines all over again :laugh:


Oh i know that, you're Nigel no mates.

He knows me and i already have his consent so suck on that you cock!
Wouldn't have posted it without it, unlike yourself arsewipe.

Oh look, mindless insults, your daughter would be so proud :facepalm:

[Madness]

He knows me and i already have his consent so suck on that you cock!
Wouldn't have posted it without it, unlike yourself arsewipe.

But does he know the context within which his image and comments have been posted?

More importantly, does Paul Butler know you're arguing over the internets on his time? Might be time for some disciplinary action at KPH?

[Grubber]

But does he know the context within which his image and comments have been posted?

More importantly, does Paul Butler know you're arguing over the internets on his time? Might be time for some disciplinary action at KPH?

Do you have his permission to place his name or the company name???
Certainly not that i know of, and yes he does know and yes he is aware you have posted the Company name also. If i was you i wouldn't ruffle his feathers too much fella, he doesn't take kindly to that sort of shit. Currently has a litigation going against another company.
We discuss all these things cock.
The only reason you know where we are is that you came into our yard once and now you have done the stalking thing to find the rest, so you aint that special buddy.Not sure why you would need to go to that trouble to be honest, bit weird if you ask me!
The big thing you have done wrong is through it all over here.
I haven't once mentioned who i work for so your not that clever really.

[bogan]

Such a pratt, really quite entertaining reading.

Also interesting reading, the chemistry behind the 'highs' of dope and alcohol, and the chemicals measured. Specifically the bit showing causation between testing and impairment. Since alcohol's impairing effects are derived through alcohol content in the blood, the test amount is indicative of the impairment amount. However this is not the case with dope, the chemicals tested for show only a very weak causative correlation with how impaired an individual is. It is a pity we cannot test this in such an indicative way as for alcohol; but it is important when discussing the topic we are mindful of this point.
It is also good the justice system showed the same initiative in the accident you posted about early, where despite having the dope chemicals in his system they couldn't prove it was causative to the accident, or even prove when he had last smoked a joint.

[saxet]

Just to give slightly different angle to the whole testing thing.
Early this year one of the Ozzie mining unions won a final case against one of the mining companies resulting in urine testing being banned as a method of drug testing as it can only indicate ingestion not impairment levels.
It is possible to do a urine style test for alcohol but it seems to be generally recommended against as it does not measure impairment levels which are already set in legislation.
I suspect the fact that pot is decriminalised in some states in Oz means that it can be viewed similarly to alcohol from a legal point of view hence the court case.

[R650R]

If the answer is indeed yes, then why do transport operators not call the Popo in when a driver tests positive? One would think (if you are correct and I believe you're not) that the transport operators would want the driver prosecuted if in fact the mere presence of cannabinoids in ones system was in itself illegal, assuming of course they do have an interest in safety.



Excuse me for interrupting this handbags at dawn session but there's other industries where that's the same as well.
Further to that the big question is why don't the police automatically do a search warrant on the house of anyone caught smoking/possession dope. I and why aren't the drug sniffer dogs outside paknsave or the bottle stores instead of wasting time at prison gates. And those P detector boxes that landlords can rent, why don't the cops have someone wandering around the neighbourhood house by house and doing quick test at front door.
You only have to watch one episode of police ten 7 to see dope charges are not treated seriously and used as a bargaining tool to get other info from people.
Once gain not into that stuff but if it is a problem why don't the authorities treat it as such...

The answer is they want society to keep taking drugs, abusing alcohol cause their too happy to vote or bitch about the govt that way...
Rant over, back to your handbags :)

[SMOKEU]

We discuss all these things cock.


Is that really the best you've got?

[Berg]

Well thank you gents for an amusing read :facepalm:

I wonder if the OP still has plans on furthering his entry into the realm of trucking :innocent: when the subject of drug testing evokes such misguided passion on both sides of the fence?

Is drug testing fair compared to testing for alcohol? Of course not, but the transport operator doesn't make the rules, they're just expected to comply. Bit like arguing with a Police officer kerbside why 120 km/h isn't really speeding because the limit should be higher :facepalm:

I had a nice ride today, shame some of you spent a lot of time pissing in the wind :laugh:
Been a funny read for sure. You looking after MY truck lol????

[caspernz]

Been a funny read for sure. You looking after MY truck lol????

It's an interesting topic alright. But I would have thought Grubbers' C/O should have intervened much sooner and politely asked him to Sierra Tango Foxtrot Uniform...:laugh:

And yes sir I've been looking after YOUR truck :devil2: only another 3 weeks to go until D-day :banana:

[rebel]

Well, about ten pages of bullshit. Fact is drug testing is working its way into the industry, don't like it then fuck off and work for maccas or Caltex. What will these whingers think when E log book or similar is common throughout the industry... I have to blow in the breatho every morning and conduct random drugs tests, it all comes with the job no one is forcing me to stay.

OP should head to TNL in Hornby as they must have one of the largest fleet in Chch.

End of the day if someone is looking at getting behind the wheel they should be encouraged as there is a shortage of decent drivers who actually want to do the job. You know the industry is fucked when they're dragging cunts off the dole and putting them behind the wheel. That is going to go down real well. Actually you only need to look at the clowns hauling containers around Auckland to see how fucked the game is.

[Akzle]

Actually you only need to look at the clowns hauling containers around Auckland to see how fucked the game is.

nevermind the trucks, ive just been in traffic for a fucking hour, from northgate to onehunga.
Hey! Auckland cunts! If, for any reason youre doing 60km/h on a motorway 3lanes wide, DONT DO IT IN THE FUCKING FASTLANE YOU FUCKIN PRICK ASS DILDO CUNTS.
Die, they should all die.

[Madness]

Fact is drug testing is working its way into the industry, don't like it then fuck off and work for maccas or Caltex.

Some of us are a little more intelligent than your average transport worker and as such the career options are a little wider. It must really suck to be a thick cunt.

[rebel]

Some of us are a little more intelligent than your average transport worker and as such the career options are a little wider. It must really suck to be a thick cunt.

Ah right, no point in you being on your high horse and not saying what notable job you have...

The smart ones don't have a woe is me attitude to drug and alcohol testing and just get on with the job. The vocal minority always like to stir shit when they don't get their way...

And the smarter ones have come across to Oz to earn well into the six figure bracket... Where they are even harder on their drug and alcohol policies.

[caspernz]

It must really suck to be a thick cunt.

No I think you explained your predicament quite thoroughly in the last few days thank you. I'm just curious though, how bad do your headaches get now that you've been diagnosed with advanced Richard Cranium syndrome?

[Madness]

No I think you explained your predicament quite thoroughly in the last few days thank you. I'm just curious though, how bad do your headaches get now that you've been diagnosed with advanced Richard Cranium syndrome?

Says the dickhead with a canary yellow Hayabusa.

[caspernz]

Says the dickhead with a canary yellow Hayabusa.

Thank you for bestowing me with such a lofty title :innocent:

[bogan]

Ah right, no point in you being on your high horse and not saying what notable job you have...

The smart ones don't have a woe is me attitude to drug and alcohol testing and just get on with the job. The vocal minority always like to stir shit when they don't get their way...

And the smarter ones have come across to Oz to earn well into the six figure bracket... Where they are even harder on their drug and alcohol policies.

And the even smarter ones, form an opinion based not on their personal experience nor on the official govt line.

You've got to fucking worry when the smartest ones in your example are migrating into the prison colony :innocent: