So do political ideologies have to clash?

[F5 Dave]

No I'm not listening to Billy Bragg

But I was listening to the radio in an early morning, kid induced-not-slept-enough funk hearing some Labour chap being grilled on whether he thought they could win the election & he had to admit in a round about way that under MMP they had to have about 16 partners to do so.



National was close to having ½ the vote but would still need a partner.



So I was thinking, I mean National and Labour when you strip it all down, right back,- behind the rhetoric, basically want the same thing. To be in Power. Spending the tax payers money and screwing over the working citizens is just a fringe benefit.




This might sound crazy when you first say it, but hear me out. Wouldn’t Labour be better having talks with National for a partnership? I mean a Nat/Lab alliance could rule with totally no pandering to the Loonies. Your Craigs, Dotcoms Peters & other parties wouldn’t even be a sideshow. All they have to do is make noises about both wanting some policy & generally keep quiet & they’d have everything they desire.
They could even do some deal for things that they might even want. It’s the only way that Labour will have any influence at all for the next couple of durations & give themselves time to reinvent themselves which hasn’t happened for a while.


Maybe someone should do some Tinder thingy to get Key & Cuntlip to the same coffee-shop for negotiations. Just saying.

[puddytat]

No, not really......think its more a problem of ego...

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/mD9Ma3KnOYg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Billy does sum it up nicely though

[Oscar]

In the 80's and 90's I struggled to see the diff between Labour and National (Prebble v. Richardson!), but the Clarke regime of social engineering/we just know better schtick cured my confusion...also the growing antipathy toward business - I guess it could be crystalized in Cullen's "rich prick" comment.

[MisterD]

Wouldn’t Labour be better having talks with National for a partnership? I mean a Nat/Lab alliance could rule with totally no pandering to the Loonies.

Sounds superficially attractive doesn't it. The problem being that doing so, would give away the whole pretence that there's some difference between the parties. It's far better (for them) to carry on with the charade and take it in turns to screw us...heaven forbid that the sheeple wake up to the con as they're starting to in the UK.

**edit**

Except there is an obvious gulf between red and blue socialism at the moment - the blue flavour appear to be able to organise a piss-up in a brewery.

[AllanB]

MMP was sold that it should even out some of these differences and possible result in the best parties for the country. Crock of shit that was and still is.

It is all just dick-waving

[mashman]

MMP was sold that it should even out some of these differences and possible result in the best parties for the country. Crock of shit that was and still is.

It is all just dick-waving

Why the move to MMP in the first place? There must have been a reason for it? Is it because the alternatives were just as bad and didn't work either?

[F5 Dave]

Yeah I remember voting for MMP under the impression that the longer a govt is in power - the more invulnerable it thinks it is and the more dangerous it becomes casting off a Muldoon era juggernaut for example. Sorry it was my fault.

[oldrider]

True!

It has often amazed/intrigued me why the so called ruling power group don't call upon some of the stronger clearly useful members of the second layer group!

A bit too radical for our politicians to handle probably but they can do it during war time so why not all the time? Good topic F5 Dave!

[mashman]

Yeah I remember voting for MMP under the impression that the longer a govt is in power - the more invulnerable it thinks it is and the more dangerous it becomes casting off a Muldoon era juggernaut for example. Sorry it was my fault.

How's changing that worked out for ya :laugh:.

[bluninja]

Think of political ideologies like beers. There will always be people that swear by a certain brand of beers and will never change, there will be those that buy whatever beer is on special, and those that just stick to what their parents drank. The beer advertisers don't try and get you to buy their particular brand by saying "It's not much different to what you're having now, drink our brand instead" do they?

I there's little difference, why would a risk averse species change their vote?

[jasonu]

Yeah I remember voting for MMP under the impression that the longer a govt is in power - the more invulnerable it thinks it is and the more dangerous it becomes casting off a Muldoon era juggernaut for example. Sorry it was my fault.

Dave, my Dad thought he was the only one who voted yes to MMP as no one he knew would admit to it. He soon regretted that vote.
That was the last vote I made in NZ and I voted no to MMP. It looked like a system that would give the tin pot and ethnic parties seats with no more than a couple of votes and buggar me that's more or less what happened. At that time I flatted with a German guy who told me they had MMP and it was all shit there.

[puddytat]

Dave, my Dad thought he was the only one who voted yes to MMP as no one he knew would admit to it. He soon regretted that vote.
That was the last vote I made in NZ and I voted no to MMP. It looked like a system that would give the tin pot and ethnic parties seats with no more than a couple of votes and buggar me that's more or less what happened. At that time I flatted with a German guy who told me they had MMP and it was all shit there.

No need to worry about tin pot & ethnic parties ever being in full control, as it'll turn out like it has in Germany & Italy in the past whenever it looked like the progressive vote might win......a Grand Coalition of the centre left/right.

[oldrider]

No need to worry about tin pot & ethnic parties ever being in full control, as it'll turn out like it has in Germany & Italy in the past whenever it looked like the progressive vote might win......a Grand Coalition of the centre left/right.

MMP was designed to contain countries like Germany from ever doing again what they did between the world wars .... I.E. doing nothing!

Ever since we have had MMP we have stagnated.

There must be some better ways of using MMP results to our (the countries) advantage but so far our pollies haven't tumbled to it yet!

Out of all those politicians they really only need a dozen to form a cabinet and run the country!

Politicians, irrespective of their party policy must have "some" independent thoughts that can be captured and utilised to advantage!

Maybe a second tier authority should form a government gleaned from the results of the MMP election "independently" once the people have had their vote!

Nothing could be worse than the way it is with parties sucking up to each other based on "their needs" rather than those of the electors to form a government!

Perhaps a second vote on the preferred coalition options so that we decide the outcome rather than the politicians/ party's? ... Anything FFS!

[Oscar]

I voted for STV.

http://www.elections.org.nz/events/past-events-0/2011-referendum-voting-system/about-referendum-choices/stv-single-transferable

Much betterer...

[F5 Dave]

How's changing that worked out for ya :laugh:.

Well it probably would have worked but Labour before and after Clarke have proved to be almost entirely incompetent and fell apart at the seams when they were in power (pre Clarke) and couldn't decide who their leader was. Mind you the Nats had a go with Bulldger and Shipley.

Mind you I am glad Clarke has gone, evil bich.


But now we are left with the same choices. Evil, Incompetent or Looney (more looney than usual this year).

I don't want any of these fckers having more parliamentary say.

[oldrider]

I don't want any of these fckers having more parliamentary say.

Totally agree sir! ...... we the voters need to be able to have more say ..... "they" are there to do as we say ..... the tail wags the fucking dog here! :kick:

[F5 Dave]

Well if we actually had democracy we could vote on the issues.

[Banditbandit]

A 'Grand Coalition' has been the obvious way to go since MMP was first introduced .. but the Nats and Labour are so stuck with the idea of being "the opposite" that they will never see it ..

[oldrider]

Well if we actually had democracy we could vote on the issues.

Even less (in number) more effective, more accountable (to the electorate) politicians would be a good start! :shifty:

Slippery as a butcher's dick always springs to mind when politicians are discussed or thought about! :eek:

[mashman]

Well it probably would have worked but Labour before and after Clarke have proved to be almost entirely incompetent and fell apart at the seams when they were in power (pre Clarke) and couldn't decide who their leader was. Mind you the Nats had a go with Bulldger and Shipley.

Mind you I am glad Clarke has gone, evil bich.


But now we are left with the same choices. Evil, Incompetent or Looney (more looney than usual this year).

I don't want any of these fckers having more parliamentary say.

Sounds like Thatcher and Scargill lol. Yup, seen it before 30ish years ago in the UK. Nice to know that things have progressed in politics :laugh: With you completely in regards to none of them really representing my views or even looking as they they could turn NZ into a shining star. Iceland are doing well :whistle:. They shed a bit of baggage and seem to be ticking along quite nicely.

A few more than 200 people living their too ;) and the odd murmur that they could become the first R.B.E. Unfortunately I can't find anything related to that so it is just a rumour, but they've gone this far and they must be pretty smart as a population to have done what they have done. I think The KB Party has a nice ring to it :laugh:. I'm definitely with looney :headbang:

[oldrider]

A 'Grand Coalition' has been the obvious way to go since MMP was first introduced .. but the Nats and Labour are so stuck with the idea of being "the opposite" that they will never see it ..

Slow to change alright, they are still really just waiting to go back to FPP and staying in that thought mode fucking up MMP to reinforce the reason to change back!

Even though I don't like MMP I would still like to see it given a better chance than it has had so far! :yes:

[mashman]

No need to worry about tin pot & ethnic parties ever being in full control, as it'll turn out like it has in Germany & Italy in the past whenever it looked like the progressive vote might win......a Grand Coalition of the centre left/right.

I'll laugh WAY too hard if that happens. I'd do an ad of red and blue life-jackets floating on a pond next to some oars.

[mashman]

Slippery as a butcher's dick always springs to mind when politicians are discussed or thought about! :eek:

cannot spread (bastard)

http://jp10.r0tt.com/l_d164a5e0-5e53-11e2-afd2-d1c5f6d00010.jpg

[F5 Dave]

For amusement I’ve been thinking about voting for the balding chap on the Yellow billboards. No idea who the new guy is, I don’t listen to Act as a rule, they are a non-entity. But that’s the point I guess. If I don’t throw them a sympathy vote who’s going to vote for them? You know - like that awkward ugly kid on Valentine’s day.

I was considering Craig just as I figure it would annoy Key the most if he had to deal with that berko every day, but I just can’t bring myself to do it.

[Oakie]

Mmm. Ideology is too fundamentally different for a Grand Alliance in any time buyt war-time.

Boil it down and Nats support business and that the flow on will help those who help themselves. Labour leaves business to fend for itself and support those who are vulnerable. Just too different.

It would be like getting Harley riders and sportsbike riders to play nicely together.

[F5 Dave]

? . .

Boil it down and Nats support business and that the flow on will help those who help themselves. Labour leaves business to fend for itself and support those who are vulnerable. .
No they Fukien don't. The common man always gets worst screwed over when Labour is in power. The Nats feather their own nest for sure but what good has Labour brought the common chap in the last 20 years? GST? Tax on everything you need to live. Working for families where tax that is collected is handed back out making every family on less than about 100k a beneficiary but at an efficiency of about 60 cents for every dollar that goes through the governments hands?

And business, well manufacturing has been royaly screwed over with Labour at various times suggesting we leave manufacturing to the Chinese and specialise. So thousands lose their jobs and still can't afford the cheap big screen TVs. So what happens when they just put prices up and we can't do shit about it? Make it ourselves? Oh wait.

and while I'm drunk and ranting, why do you think the Amercans are still propping up their auto industry? The war machine needs to be fed if needs be you have to out manufacture your enemy. Oh but we won't have another world war. Sure, as long as everyone in the world thinks like we do we'll be sweet.

sorry where was I? This has got less funny sorry

[AllanB]

What annoys me the most is voting my MP's - the party only needs to win by one vote and the proposal goes through - closer the party numbers the closer the vote. So something that 49% are not supporting gets through ......

[jasonu]

Even though I don't like MMP I would still like to see it given a better chance than it has had so far! :yes:

How long does it need? It has been in since the late 90's and has shown itself to be crap.

[Ocean1]

So I was thinking, I mean National and Labour when you strip it all down, right back,- behind the rhetoric, basically want the same thing.


No they Fukien don't. The common man always gets worst screwed over when Labour is in power. The Nats feather their own nest for sure but what good has Labour brought the common chap in the last 20 years? GST? Tax on everything you need to live. Working for families where tax that is collected is handed back out making every family on less than about 100k a beneficiary but at an efficiency of about 60 cents for every dollar that goes through the governments hands?

And business, well manufacturing has been royaly screwed over with Labour at various times suggesting we leave manufacturing to the Chinese and specialise. So thousands lose their jobs and still can't afford the cheap big screen TVs. So what happens when they just put prices up and we can't do shit about it? Make it ourselves? Oh wait.

And there you have it, they may be close but from the point of view of a voter polarised around either income, (right) or expenditure, (left) there is a huge difference.

I think National is doing well not so much as a result of any stellar performance but because both have drifted so far left under the influence of their respective vote buying behaviour that they're simply closer to centre.

I'm surprised ACT aren't getting more traction, what with all the noise I hear about the excessive quantity of government we have they seem a natural protest vote at minimum.

[Oakie]

How long does it need? It has been in since the late 90's and has shown itself to be crap.

I reckon the concept is good but it needs tinkering. I don't like, for example ... get 4.9% and get no seats but get 5.1% and you could get half a dozen. As far as coalitions are concerned, I'd like to see the single party with the highest % of votes have the first opportunity to form a government and the second highest party only allowed to attempt should the 'winning' party fail to form a coalition within, say, a week.

I'm not a Greenie by any means but with them now being an accepted 10% give or take, they have affected the policies of both main parties so even though they aren't controlling policy, green issues are beng represented by default. Just take the National party's promise to retire riverside land by farms to improve water quality. Wouldn't have happened without the greenies being a political force.

MMP is not perfect but it's preferable to the farce we had a few years back where then party with the most votes still got second because they didn't win more than half the seats.

In reality I guess ... no system is perfect.

[oldrider]

How long does it need? It has been in since the late 90's and has shown itself to be crap.

So true but they (pollies) have only tried using it like FPP or have subjected it to limited tinkering! ... there's more than one way to skin a fucking cat! :mellow:

We have got it ... can we make any more of it before we turf it out? :scratch: